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  Ok I admit I have a one track mind. I am fascinated and frustrated by how the brilliantly progressive Daily Kos community appears to have almost zero awareness of the emerging LENR technology. What is inherently wrong with a technological fix that would, if implemented, allow us to develop within five to ten years a planetary energy system that would create an endless stream of energy with ZERO emissions of carbon and no radioactivity? Well the reader's first reaction is likely to be TGTBT. I don't discount that reaction, it makes sense and is true to sound rational principles. So I beg you: if there was even a five percent chance that this is really happening wouldn't you regard it as your progressive patriotic duty to familiarize yourself with WOT's happening? I understand that as a newbie here I have zero credibility, but I will nevertheless state that at this juncture I am >90% sure that emerging LENR technology is actually emerging. When it does finally emerge into national consciousness it is going to blow our collective socks off. Are you the least bit interested? Then I invite you to start with this link: the Defkalion company on July 23, 2013 presented a live webcast demonstrating their reactor to ICCF-18 (International Conference on Cold Fusion- actual tenured university academics including a fellow from MIT among others who are now holding their eighteenth annual meeting-in near total obscurity). So if you are interested in joining the 0.01% of humanity who are in on an amazing secret activate the link:Defkalion demonstration 7/23/2012

Originally posted to newfire on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 06:43 AM PDT.

Also republished by Science Matters.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Defkalion Demonstration (0+ / 0-)

      Ouch, PhilK but I definitely expected such. I am sincerely interested in learning why a game-changing technologic revolution elicits such a negative reaction from like minded individuals

  •  LENR = (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polecat, DocGonzo

    Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, also known as Cold Fusion.



    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 07:55:22 AM PDT

    •  defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

      Thanks for the reply Wee Mama, I am not sure whether to count this as a positive or negative reaction. Cold Fusion has been widely derided as junk science, but there is tons of data out there that tends to confirm its reality if you are willing to examine such

    •  Not Necessarily Fusion (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      duhban

      Actually, the point of "LENR" is that it's believed to be nuclear reactions, but the low energy doesn't necessarily indicate fusion. It's entirely possible what's happening is not fusion, but some other kind of reaction "catalyzed" by the materials used, that nets surplus energy but isn't quite fusion of two separate nuclei. Or if it is, the paths from the original nuclei to the resulting nucleas follow different sequences than previously understood.

      Or it's fake.

      That's science: until there's conclusive (or at least probabilistically comeplling) evidence disproving all other theories, we don't actually know what it is. It might be a mistake (by the presenters, or by the testers). Or it might be the future.

      I don't agree that progressives or DKos' users should all get excited on either a 5% chance LENR is practical, or even a ">90%" chance. I think enthusiasts and skeptics should be interested on that basis. I'm sure that without exhaustive testing, nobody should endorse it. Even if we don't understand how it's working, if it does work and it doesn't pose other unacceptable risks (eg. unmanageable radiation, unsustainable industrial scaling, etc), we should then all get very excited about it.

      Both for its potential to power our lives, and for its likely abuse as a weapon.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 11:05:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not a single one of his 'demonstrations' has been (0+ / 0-)

    completely open in the sense that every aspect could be examined.

    And the isotope ratios of the byproducts are all wrong, to boot.

    This is just an ongoing attempt at a scam.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 08:00:08 AM PDT

    •  Defkalion Demonstration (0+ / 0-)

      Thank you for the reply polecat. I understand you are skeptical and have good reason to be so. Question: are you interested enough in the subject to engage in a dialog with me?

      •  Talk to me about nuclear byproducts... /nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wee Mama, S F Hippie

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        —Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 08:32:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  defkalion demonstration (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mookins

          OK here goes nothing. According to the standard description of physics any fusion reaction such as the combination of two hydrogen atoms to form helium ought to be accompanied by the release of prodigious amounts of radiation including energetic harm producing neutrons and gamma rays. These effects are not observed as expected in lenr reactions which constitutes a major impediment to the acceptance of lenr by the scientific community. Lenr researchers at the moment do not claim to understand the science behind the effects they are observing. A number of theories have been put forth but as yet there is nothing resembling a concensus. There have definitely been some false starts. Mr Rossi (ECAT inventor) originally claimed that his reactor was transmuting nickel into copper, but he has backed away from that and in all likelihood the copper he was observing in the "ash" was just contamination from somewhere else in his device. That would explain why the copper he was finding had a "natural" isotopic ratio, his reactor wasn't producing it after all.
               So I would describe the most likely bottom line as follows:Lenr reactions involved the combination of hydrogen and deuterium atoms to produce helium atoms, with the negligible release of gamma rays and energetic neutrons. The science is not at all understood. Helium is a ubiquitous substance in our atmosphere, so proving that the small amount of helium one can find in the reactor vessel came from the reaction itself and not from atmospheric contamination is beyond the precision available to the largely self-funded Lenr researchers. That could change if a larger politically active community became aware of the potential for planet-saving scientific breakthroughs that Lenr research presents. Anyone interested?

          •  What effects are they observing? (0+ / 0-)

            "The war on drugs followed by the war on terror has eliminated protections we have had since the Magna Carta." -Horace Boothroyd III

            by mookins on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 10:54:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hand-waving and dubious claims of excess heat. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins, Silvia Nightshade, sturunner

              (due to improperly placed instruments, questionable reporting of values that are coming from those same instruments, and questions as to how isolated these "demonstrations" actually are.)

              Charlatans.

              The big question is "why?"  And it seems to be so they can line up investors, because as bp pointed out above, if you can generate electricity cheaply then you should freakin' SELL IT.

              Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
              I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
              —Spike Milligan

              by polecat on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 11:11:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

                The reactors definitely have a problem with reliability and reproducibility. Whether a given reactor functions or not is highly dependent on minuscule differences in how the reactive materials are prepared. The inventors have their hands full sorting this out. Thus they have not yet "closed the loop"'by using the generated heat to produce enough electricity to run the reactor and have power left to sell. This is an engineering issue that I think could easily be solved once enough eyes are opened to the possibility that the LENR effect is real

                •  It's not an 'engineering issue' (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mookins, polecat

                  it's a red flag that they are likely engaging in crack-pot science.

                  •  Defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

                    Good morning Ozy. I wonder if you are aware that a colloquiem of "crackpot" tenured university professors from around the planet have been meeting in Missouri this week to discuss and present their LENR research? If you are not a pseudoskeptic, ie you can stomach data that may not agree with your worldview, you may wish to review the link http://coldfusionnow.org/ which at the moment is featuring the presentations of the International Conference on Cold Fusion 18 (18 means it is the eighteenth year these guys have been meeting). ICCF-18 was the primary recipient of the video-streamed Defkalion demonstration I refer to in my original post here, and scientists from ICCF-18 have been collaborating with the Defkalion corporation. It is time for the world to pay attention. That is unless you prefer the Schadenfreude of choosing between managing scarcity or watching Manhatten sink under twenty meters of glacial melt.

                    •  I've met several tenured university professors (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      polecat

                      that were 'true believers' and still wrong, demonstrably so.

                      Granted, it was in a tangentially related area, IEC fusion, or electro-statically confined fusion championed by the likes of Miley and Bussard. And, of course, IEC actually does 'fuse', it just doesn't scale to a reactor, so their beliefs are a bit more excusable.

                      So far, cold fusion has largely operated as science-by-press release, instead of the normal process of peer review.

                      Yet another red flag.

                      But the two options you present are a false dichotomy. Both fission power and renewable energy provide solutions to reign in, and hopefully reverse climate change. Regular hot fusion may do so as well, though that will be several decades in the future at the earliest.

            •  Defkalion demonstration (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mookins

              Thank you for the interest mookins. The basic claim by the Defkalion company goes as follows. A specially prepared nickel "lattice" is loaded with hydrogen gas. The reactor is heated using electric resistance heaters similar to a space heater. Then a high voltage spark discharge is applied using a proprietary technique. When the reactor "ignites"'it starts discharging heat (in the form of water heated to steam). During the july 23 demonstration when the power of the discharged water was calculated it was conservatively shown to be greater than the inputted electrical power by a factor of three. Undeniably this demonstration was conducted by the Defkalion company itself, so of course there is the opportunity for fraud to be committed. However there is a wide spectrum of data being generated by a number of different parties that suggest an effect similar to that being claimed by Defkalion. The net effect of these multiple demonstrations is to be rapidly be closing the "window of likelihood" that LENR is a fraud

  •  I'll Sell You A Machine That Makes Gold !!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    polecat

    Because you're to f'ing dumb too ask why I would not keep the machine and sell the gold.

    Same deal here - why not just sell the power and skip the bullshit about demonstrations?

    Men are so necessarily mad that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 08:20:40 AM PDT

    •  Defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

      Good question bernardpliers, you sound like a skeptic and have every reason to be so. Are you of sufficient interest in the subject to be willing to engage in a dialog with me? That would involve being willing to examine some of the reports with an at least partially open mind. A good place to start would be a review of Rossi's technology that was recently released by a group of seven or eight academics from universities in Italy and Sweden. You know, persons with reputations to be concerned about....

    •  bp - the "demo" is about investors. (0+ / 0-)

      They're trying to find rubes that are willing to part with cash.

      Can't think of any other motive because there are sooooo many ways this "demo" could have been done differently to assuage skeptics (like using oil, for one).

      And of course simply selling the gold, so to speak, would make more sense.  And be the ultimate proof.

      If that sucker actually produced 27KW it'd have been an oven in that room -- sorry, a sauna (because of the steam).

      Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
      I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
      —Spike Milligan

      by polecat on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 09:47:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Peswiki (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Obama Amabo

    I follow Peswiki news about twice a month:
    http://www.peswiki.com/...

    They have the best roundup of esoteric energy news that I know of.  Don't necessarily believe any of it but it is interesting to see what is going on.  Currently, the new physics of Norberto Keppe is what is piquing my interest, especially as the Keppe fan motor seems to have just been awarded a US patent, according to Peswiki.

    The Rossi and Defkalion LENR devices are probably closest to commercialization (although there are rumors that Mitsubishi has been using LENR devices in some of its machinery based upon the Fleishmann/Pons work for years now).  My friends who are in the esoteric energy field are optimistic but cautious.  

    As for the knee-jerk skeptics, there is plenty of room for skepticism but the knee-jerk response is not useful.

  •  Whether there is something real or a total scam... (0+ / 0-)

    ...it's bound to be a fascinating story!

    Neither I nor anyone else on DK is in any position to judge one way or the other. But if it's real (and there seem to be a LOT of serious scientists who are on the fence), it's a once-in-a-millennium story.

    Of course, I find bigtime international scams to be among the most interesting crimes, and this may certainly be one. But it's hard to see how this particular one could be designed to pay off in anything more than a prison sentence.  

    I posted a diary here about this stuff almost two years ago, to much the same skepticism. But I just keep chewing the popcorn, watching and waiting...  

    NEW PALINDROMIC METAPHOR MEANING TO MAKE A PREDICTION THAT IS ASTOUNDINGLY OFF TARGET: "Pull a Gallup!" As in: "The weatherman said yesterday would be sunny and mild, but we got a foot of snow! Boy, did he pull a Gallup!"

    by Obama Amabo on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 03:56:25 AM PDT

    •  That's not true. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Silvia Nightshade, polecat

      There are plenty of us here with the appropriate scientific background to judge the merits of the claims.

      They claim is 'isn't fusion', yet they also claim to measure He produced reacting two D atoms together. That's fusion. And if They measure He, then they have to be measuring gamma rays emitted with the correct energy based on the conversion of the binding mass differential to energy.

      They aren't measuring any gamma rays, and have no explanation why not.

      Not only that,  the other two branching reactions resulting in either a tritium atom + proton, or He3 atom + neutron are  a million times more likely to occur.

      And yet they don't measure any high energy protons or neutrons. And they have no explanation as to why not.

      Add this to the fact that the He levels they measure are right around 'background' and it's pretty clear that they are measuring...

      nothing.

      Generally, people don't go to jail for being bad scientists unless they are intentionally defrauding people. I have no doubt that many of the scientists involved in this type of research are 'true believers' despite the physics. I've met several of them.

      •  defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

        Hello Ozy, your posting above constitutes the error "it can't be happening because they can't say why it's happening". The history of science is full of situations where experimental observations came before the theories to explain those observations. There have been hundreds if not thousands of scientific papers describing observations that might be called LENR effects. There have been a number of theories put forward by tenured university faculty to explain these effects. I am not sophisticated enough to be in a position to judge which if any of these theories hold water. But I have eyes and ears and some common sense and it seems to me that the chance that all these hundreds of observations are nothing but experimental error is becoming vanishingly small, or at least small enough that it is now irresponsible behavior for folks who desire salvation for this planet to willfully ignore the evidence.

        •  You mischaracterized my argument. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Silvia Nightshade, polecat

          It's not happening because it violates fundamental physics, the conservation of energy.

          If you could point me to a theory that explains the lack of gamma ray measurements, or an explanation of why the million times more likely branching reactions don't occur, please do.

          Your claim about 'hundreds if not thousands' of scientific papers is just flat out wrong, assuming that you refer to peer reviewed publications. If you're referring to non-peer reviewed papers, then yes, many of the true believers are quite prolific writers.

          You only reduce error if measurements are independent. Given the fact that it's a small cadre of true believers, it doesn't matter how many measurements they make, it will always support their belief.

          Your common sense fails if you don't consider the possibility that these people just aren't doing good science, and it's not 'irresponsible' to note a waste of resources.

          If you want to 'save the planet', then why would you encourage people to use polluting energy chasing a fantasy? Is the energy for the experiments coming from renewable power? Heck, if this stuff works, why don't they whip together a few LENR reactors to power their experiments?

          I think we both know why.

          •  Defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

            Hi Ozy I do appreciate your taking the time and your responses are valid. I am on a camping trip tapping this out on my iPhone so I have to be brief. A very good place to start for documentation would be. http://lenr-canr.org/ This site is run by Jed Rothwell who is admittedly an ardent supporter of LENR. If you spend some time there you will learn that a lot of the research is in fact peer reviewed although to be a peer in this setting I assume you do have to be at least disposed to accept the possibility that LENR effects are real. More later if you are game!

            •  I would prefer a more specific link (0+ / 0-)

              to support your various claims. And given that the claims violate several basic, fundamental principles of well established physics, only allowing review by people who already accept LENR as possible eliminates actual critical review of most of the scientific population.

              Science works best when it tries to disprove something new and fails, not when it is looking for ways that something new 'might be possible' despite everything else telling you that it isn't. That leads to crack-pot science, perpetual motion machines, and wastes of time and money.

              If the science of LENR was sound, it wouldn't matter if a reviewer 'believed' in it or not. The theory, equations, and results would stand on their own.

    •  defkalion demonstration (0+ / 0-)

      Great hearing from you Obama Amabo. I have decided to come down off the fence and get my hands dirty. My kids think I'm crazy but they are starting to realize it is their future I am talking about

      •  Wishing doesn't make it so. (0+ / 0-)

        Whether it has to do with finding Aliens in NM, Earnhart in the South Pacific, or actual quantifiable reactions in Cold Fusion or "LENR" if you prefer.

        /facepalm

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        —Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Fri Jul 26, 2013 at 01:40:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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