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Orson Scott Card just can't help himself. You'd figure with the boycott of the motion picture based on his novel Ender's Game ( ), plus the open letter I posted, he'd have enough to deal with. But no, that's not how this particularly crazy works. He must have figured he didn't piss off enough people by being bizarrely over-the-top in opposing LGBT rights. So why not bring it to a whole other level of offensiveness? If all you've been looking for in your batshit right-winger life this summer has been conspiracy theories, racism, and the President as Adolph Hitler, has OSC got an essay for you. We'll get to Nazi comparisons soon enough, but let's start here -- his little "thought experiment" starts off on a slow burn


Obama is, by character and preference, a dictator.  He hates the very idea of compromise; he demonizes his critics and despises even his own toadies in the liberal press.  He circumvented Congress as soon as he got into office by appointing "czars" who didn't need Senate approval.
Nothing too bad at first. Just your usual boilerplate crazy. Yes, yes the President is by nature a dictator. That's why the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act aka the Stimulus was 1/3 tax breaks. That also must be why we're all enjoying the Public Option as part of Obamacare. I'm no wordsmith like Orson Scott Card but I seem to have a better understanding of the words "dictator" and "compromise." It's the same thing with all this talk of "czars." Sure the name czar is just a colloquial term used for certain positions started under the Nixon administration. And yes every administration both Democrat and Republican has had "czars"since the 70's. However, it's Obama, so it must be nefarious plot. Again, nothing your average back bench Congressman from a red state isn't spewing on a daily basis. So let's add some spice to the mix with a little dash of overt racism:
Having been anointed from the start of his career because he was that magical combination -- a black man who talks like a white man (that's what they mean by calling him "articulate" and a "great speaker") -- he has never had to work for a living, and he has never had to struggle to accomplish goals.
Oh boy. No Mr. Card. The fact that the President is articulate and a great speaker means just that. I'm very sorry if all of your information on black people comes from Blaxploitation era of films and that you seemed to be watching on infinite loop with Peggy Noonan. She, another sufferer of Obama Derangement Syndrome. I'm also sorry that a black person speaking intelligently seems magical to you. I'm even sorrier that it somehow signifies whiteness to you. Here's the thing, though: Columbia University and Harvard Law School don't tend to accept folks who converse like extras from the movie Shaft. That's not sorcery. It's called an education.

I'd like to take a break from talk of racism to highlight that a person that writes sci-fi books for a living is referring to another person as never having worked for a living. AMAZING! I assume he's referring to that tired old trope from the right which denigrates the President's CV. Apparently, tearing apart his educational accomplishments wasn't enough. But work as a community organizer, State Senator, Senator and now President of the United States by any measure constitutes working for a living. I'm not saying he was working in a coal mine, then again, what Orson Scott Card does for a living isn't exactly backbreaking.

But let's get back to the festivities -- because Mr. Card was just getting warmed up.

This next portion requires a bit of set up.  I really wanted to do a linear retelling of most of this nonsense. But Orson Scott Card is insane and therefore his mind doesn't work in a linear fashion. The piece is filled with references of Obama as Hitler, Obama installing the First Lady as President and maintaining a Svengali like control over her, and his enemies no longer being allowed access to health care what with Obama Care giving him total dominion over that system as well.  It's so intricate and detailed that if I was inclined to do a complete point-by-point fact-checking session on the ranting of a madman, it would deserve its own post purely for debunking reasons. But I digress.

So at this point of the piece President Obama Dictator Obama has seized total control over the government with a national police force. I know, I know. Given how lazy an unintelligent he's so often called in the essay, he sure does get a lot done in record time. Just come with me further down the rabbit hole -- I swear it will be worthwhile -- how he'll institute his national police force is the least interesting question. The most interesting part is whom will make up said National Police force. Mr. Card continued:

Where will he get his "national police"?  The NaPo will be recruited from "young out-of-work urban men" and it will be hailed as a cure for the economic malaise of the inner cities.
One important point: Those quotation marks are his, not mine. That means that even he's aware of how racist he's being right now. I thought I'd have to do an entire paragraph on coded language and what "urban" meant. Luckily Orson does the heavy lifting.
In other words, Obama will put a thin veneer of training and military structure on urban gangs, and send them out to channel their violence against Obama's enemies.

Instead of doing drive-by shootings in their own neighborhoods, these young thugs will do beatings and murders of people "trying to escape" -- people who all seem to be leaders and members of groups that oppose Obama.

Again one must just sit back in amazement of how unadulterated the racist and the crazy are. The stakes just keep getting raised. Thus far we have the President employing gangs of "young out-of-work urban men" for his National Police force. But that's not nearly scary enough. He needs a Nat Turner level of terror. So here come the images of drive-by shootings in case his use of "urban" was too subtle for you with them literally murdering his enemies. Some even going so far as to kill people that are "trying to escape" (escape what, and to where? The cities? The whole US?).  Bravo Mr. Card. Bravo.

He tries in vain to talk about his essay as a fictional pursuit. Every few paragraphs there's a sentence or two that says something to the effect of predictions are often wrong, or this couldn't possibly happen. Only to give another dozen reasons why it most certainly will. For example, "Absurd, because predictors are inevitably wrong." but also "Actually, I was laughed at in the 1980s for publicly predicting the possibility of the fall of Soviet Communism..." He's a crafty one -- crafting and promoting his vision of a terrifying Obamapocalyptic Dystopia in rapturous detail, but making sure to hedge his bets in case, you know, real life ends up disagreeing. And on and on he dances.

Suffice it to say, if you didn't have a reason to avoid putting one more cent into this man pocket, you should now.  But again -- while debunking the rabid right-wing nonsense in this essay is fun, it's not worth a post by itself. What's actually more interesting is how easily Mr. Card fits right in with what used to be considered the extreme right-wing of a generation ago which is now the regular right-wing of today. Conspiracy theories? Check. Hitler comparisons, no doubt. Racism? Of course! One could look at the President's life and come to many conclusions. None of which relate to "never having to struggle." Today the things that crackpots used to whisper about are now what passes for mainstream conservative thought. Just last year Mitt Romney was talking about how much easier his Presidential aspirations would be for him if only he were a Mexican. Yeah he grew up the wealthy scion of a politically connected family, amassed a fortune of a quarter of a billion dollars, but imagine what he could have done if the whole white thing weren't holding him back. Only in the fevered imaginations of those in conservative circles are such conversations entertained.

Speaking of things that the crazies used to whisper about, "Obama as Hitler" sounds certifiably crazy. At least it should to most people. Not so says this 2010 poll. Not only did almost 40% of Republican respondents think that Obama was "doing many of the things that Hitler did" but 24% think he just might be the anti-Christ! Given that a Tennessee magistrate thought this baby was trying to be the Messiah, I guess anything goes. But this is par for the course in Republican circles. Everything is on the table when it comes to the President. It doesn't matter how ridiculous the claims. Even the most contradictory attacks. Need proof? Look no further than Mr. Card's essay.

On the one hand, Mr. Card is saying that the President is this lazy bum of a man whose never had to work and had everything handed to him on a silver platter. OK, that's easy enough to argue against. But on the other hand, Mr. Card also says the President is also this dark Machiavellian character who maintains his autocratic regime with strict control of his allies and the destruction of his enemies. Either through character assassination in the media, withholding health care or outright murder via drive-by. I'm not sure what comes after jumping the shark but its a wonder that Mr. Card and the rest of the tin-foil hat brigade haven't collapsed into neutron stars by the sheer force of irony. Any story comparing Obama to both Hitler and Neville Chamberlain is doomed to ridicule. The President can be either a ruthless dictator bent on destroying the US from within or he can be the ineffectual idiot who lucked into power and is going us all killed. But he can't be both Kaiser Soze and Colonial Klink. So which is it? Tri dimensional chess vs. the world or hide-and-go-seek by himself?

Mr. Card, I never knew how crazy you were. Fortunately for you and most unfortunately for the rest of us, you seem to have plenty of company.

Originally posted to The Non Blogosphere on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:00 AM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Oh, Uncle Orson's got a lot more of those things (17+ / 0-)

    Head over to his website, take an antiemetic, and start reading.

    (Personally I have no dog in this boycott because I thought "Ender" was a bad book and have no interest in seeing the film. But I have plenty of popcorn.)

    The thing about quotes on the internet is you cannot confirm their validity. ~Abraham Lincoln

    by raboof on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:10:03 AM PDT

    •  I'd Suggest Taking Some Antacid... (7+ / 0-)

      ...but the movie's production executives and investors are probably buying up the entire supply as we speak.

      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

      by stevemb on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:47:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I bet the people who funded that film (14+ / 0-)

      wish they had never heard of him.

      "If you tell the truth, you'll eventually be found out." Mark Twain

      by Steven D on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:54:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh good... (8+ / 0-)

      I'm not the only one who thought that the book was crap.

      You know what, Stuart, I LIKE YOU. You're not like the other people, here, in the trailer park.

      by Mithras Angel on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:39:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A lot of us thought it was crap (15+ / 0-)

        I highly recommend John Kessel's review - critique would probably be a better word - of this novel.

              We see the effects of displaced, righteous rage everywhere around us, written in violence and justified as moral action, even compassion. Ender gets to strike out at his enemies and still remain morally clean.  Nothing is his fault. Stilson already lies defeated on the ground, yet Ender can kick him in the face until he dies, and still remain the good guy.  Ender can drive bone fragments into Bonzo’s brain and then kick his dying body in the crotch, yet the entire focus is on Ender’s suffering.  For an adolescent ridden with rage and self-pity, who feels himself abused (and what adolescent doesn’t?), what’s not to like about this scenario?  So we all want to be Ender.  

        This is also interesting, written by a fellow (former?) Mormon:

        Tell me what to write. 'To know what is right and to do it are two different things.' - Chushingura, a tale of The Forty-Seven Ronin

        by rbird on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:38:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bill Shunn is definitely a former Mormon (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Issek, sphealey, caul, Ahianne

          An old friend of mine before he was "former", with a really fascinating story to tell (I guess the book never got sold?) of how the deep doctrinal and sexual pressures imposed on teenaged missionaries can stress a young man.

          (You can wiki him.  Canada let him go home, but only on the proviso he never come back!  Post 9/11, I don't know that he would have gotten off so lightly.)

          The LDS know what they're doing when they send young guys at their hormonal peak to be celibate missionaries for two full years.  The principles of cognitive dissonance dictate that after you've gone through something like that, you're very unlikely to be able to admit to yourself that it was all for nothing.  (On the positive side, it makes former LDS missionaries a little less provincial than many of us, since they frequently live in other countries and learn other languages.) I've met a number of Mormons who have managed not to seem as twisted up as Mr. Card; but more than a couple of did happen to become ex-Mormons.

          Me, I liked some of Card's work, but by Ender's Game was starting to get creeped out by the things Kessel wrote about, which if anything got more blatant  as the series continued.  Wouldn't have gone to see the movie regardless.  And I remember his popular "Secular Humanist Revivals" from sf conventions of the 1980s, very enjoyable, but in hindsight?  Kind of disingenuous.

        •  I didn't remember this but liked the book (0+ / 0-)

          Perhaps it was a willingness to ignore the violent stuff with all the cool fantasy and strategic ideas I thought I saw. So I was willing to deal with it.

          That said, I found the rest of the series progressively drier. I'm scared to go back to Ender's Game, now, because I don't want to wind up loathing it.

    •  Loved the short story in Analog from which (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, happymisanthropy

      the novel was derived, but like with all such things (see, e.g., Nightfall) the novelized product is overstuffed and loses the point of the original story.

      Is it courageous to propose tax cuts but not identify a single tax expenditure to rein in? Is it courageous to target your deepest cuts on the poorest Americans, who vote in lower numbers and provide little in campaign contributions?

      by caul on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:00:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How depressing. (32+ / 0-)

    I very much enjoyed Ender's Game, and have liked a lot of his other work.  It's such a downer to see what a creep he is.

    I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

    by tle on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:22:16 AM PDT

    •  He really went off the deep end after 9/11 (14+ / 0-)

      The only really good book he wrote was "Pastwatch" which had an original premise and no demigods.  In fact, the point was to save humanity from a demigod.  The rest of the books are pretty adolescent stuff.

      He wrote one book about how a George Soros type builds a private high tech army and takes over the US, saved of course by a super soldier.  It never seems to have occurred to him that it was far more likely that someone like the Koch Bros would do that, as opposed to a Hungarian refugee from totalitarianism.  Projection seems to be one of his problems.

      Don't bet your future on 97% of climate scientists being wrong. Take action on climate now!

      by Mimikatz on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:50:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That was Empire (8+ / 0-)

        The book that comes with a philosophical screach at the end, explaining why people who aren't him are evil. I read that, and felt a profound sense of loss over the corrupting of my childhood memories of enjoying Enders Game.

        I dropped his books into a box in the basement, and stopped engaging. At some point authors stop being able to prevent their crazy from seeping into their stories, and Empire was his Rainbow Six.

        It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

        by Solarian on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:25:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Rainbow Six (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ichibon, NearlyNormal, caul, NonEuclidian

          I always wondered if it was me suddenly waking up to his politics or whether he stopped trying to hide them, but that's exactly where I stopped reading Clancy as well.

          •  It was when he stopped caring (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sphealey, caul, happymisanthropy

            There's a fair amount of Flat Tax fiscal conservative BS in Executive Orders, etc, but you knew Ryan was a conservative to begin with. It was part of his character, so his policies made sense in light of that and residual good will allowed me to not care.

            Then enviromentalists are all bioterrorists was published. Sharks were jumped, and I felt better about moving on.

            Also, as football season is almost upon us, he's a Vikings fan, so I was always destined to stop respecting him. Thus ends the gratutitous football trolling.

            It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

            by Solarian on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:18:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I should downrate you... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Texnance, caul

              ....for being so anti-Vikings.

              •  :) (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TKO333, caul

                Or uprate for levity.  Although I'm no longer bemused by football craziness; there's way too much money being ripped out of taxpayer wallets to support Lifestyles of the Rich and Infamous.

                This whole discussion is interesting.  I'm in general agreement with the reaction that nutjob politics can really turn people off an entire body of work.

                Can someone think of writers who went off the deep end in the "other direction" (for want of a better term). Although I'm not sure what that would consist of.  In the current climate, a work which emphasized democracy would probably be portrayed as insane radicalism.

                I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

                by tle on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:31:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  ;) (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  caul, tle

                  Heh, I like the Vikings but I'm not a crazed fan. Attempts to extort new Stadiums by the Vikings and Twins (and I AM a crazed fan about the Twins) are little short of robbery.

                  I'm not sure if Card really went off the deep end. I mean as a Mormon he probably always felt the way he does about social issues. Maybe he just decided to take his life-jacket off?

                  As for going the other way, I can't really think of any. I tend to prefer the fantasy genre, and that can be rather conservative. On the other hand, I have known authors to switch writing styles but that's usually attributable to a personal change rather than a political overhaul. I think TVtropes does actually list a few examples from the left in their creator on board or related entries.

                •  I'm sure there are some crazy leftist SF writers (0+ / 0-)

                  out there.

                  Can't think of any offhand, though, except maybe later Norman Spinrad.

                  The thing about quotes on the internet is you cannot confirm their validity. ~Abraham Lincoln

                  by raboof on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:26:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  SF people tend to lean libertarian (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  so if a SF novelist went 'off the deep end' to the left, the most likely result would be a large pile of anarchist manifestos. I can't think of any who have actually done that, though. Can't think of any SF writers with piles of right-libertarian screeds either.

                  That's not really surprising, since anarchist/libertarian political writing is basically science fiction dressed up as philosophy, so it's more fun to just keep writing the real thing. (I'm a left-libertarian SF lover myself so I can say that :)

                  Traditional lefties are rare among SF novelists. If we broaden our search to include fantasy, though, we pick up a fair number of traditional liberal feminists. That means in theory we could see someone go 'off the deep end' into the crazy side of radical feminism and start pushing lesbian separatism and/or Janice-Raymond-style transphobic asshattery. Again, it hasn't happened. And I don't think it's very likely.

                  If we broaden the search some more to include SF screenwriters, we start to have more luck; the film industry is more traditionally liberal. Here, I think our best bet would be Neill Blomkamp. Everything he's done has been liberal, but his latest film, Elysium, is literally promoting revolutionary socialism. I do mean literally.

                  But he still doesn't quite qualify for Card equivalency. He fails on two counts:

                  First, while Elysium is so far left it's off the map of American politics, it's not actually batshit crazy; he's not pushing a Maoist/Stalinist regime or anything. Just, you know, forcibly taking over the government, confiscating the wealth of the 0.01% and distributing equal shares of it to everyone on the planet, and also free universal healthcare.

                  Second, I don't think he's written any substantive political commentary outside of his fiction.

                  So basically the answer is "no, not so far, at least not in the SFverse. You might have more luck in the literary fiction section."

                  "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                  by kyril on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 01:29:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Hey (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                peregrine kate

                I said it was gratuitous football trolling. So I beg you to take it in the jesting manner in which it was stated, and then we can all get together an mock the Lions.

                Wait, Detroits going though enough crap right now... Tampa, they used to be in our division. We'll mock Tampa.

                Now on to the serious part:
                And keep up the no public funding push, that I completely respect and am glad that someone is standing up on that.

                It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

                by Solarian on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 07:37:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Or like Crichton with "State of Fear." (5+ / 0-)

          I prefer Crichton in his Jurassic Park days, before he began trying to give intellectual cover for the James Inhofes of the world.

          •  The Andromeda Strain is silly (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Debby, Lupin, caul, Ahianne, peregrine kate

            but it has some suspense.

            Jurassic Park is just insulting. To all of the characters, to the dinosaurs, but most of all to the reader or the movie viewer. Because the only question apart from how the children can possibly survive both the raptors and the T. Rex is how badly almost every character can screw up, and how badly everything else can go wrong before the reader/viewer asks, "Why do I care about this?"

            Dud science, dud technology, dud software, above all dud security. The Chernobyl of SF movies.

            Where was Gojira, friend of children, when we needed him?

            Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

            by Mokurai on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:51:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Andromeda Strain (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Texnance, susans, Lupin, caul

              Loved the Movie -- one of a long string of campy science fiction/special effects of the early 70s. :)

              Bigotry, prejudice and social "conservatism" always fail. Always.FloydA

              by Simolean on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:24:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Pfft. Took me less than a half-hour of the film. (3+ / 0-)

              "Jurassic" was on TV. After about 20 minutes of that first scene, I turned off the set and said "I don't care if ANY of these people survive. And I don't care if they're eaten by awesome-looking dinosaurs or fall in a hole, I'm not watching another minute of these tedious jerks."

              I'm a writer. I cannot be bribed with pretty shiny SFX in lieu of a plot and characters. (It's one of the reasons I adore old British SF like Tom Baker-era Dr. Who, Blake's 7 and the like - they didn't have money for cool effects, sets or costumes so they had to make us CARE about those cheesy cardboard-outfit critters with storytelling and character development.)

              P.S. I think "friend of children" was Gamera's schtick, but most Japanese monsters had a soft spot for that one four-year-old boy in short pants and a baseball cap.

              Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

              by gardnerhill on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:36:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Empire is the book I stoped reading him at as well (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          javan, caul, kyril

          It is very sad that he has gone the way he has.  I have very fond memories of his earlier books.  Most especially Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead.

      •  "Projection seems to be one of his problems." (9+ / 0-)

        ya think???

        (Actually, it's so endemic that whenever a rightwing nutjob --excuse the redundancy-- accuses anybody of anything, I know assume they are guilty of whatever they're accusing someone of.   97.3%of the time, that's a very safe bet.)

      •  I'm mystified by Pastwatch (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TheMeansAreTheEnd, Lupin, caul, kyril

        in which a couple of time-travel scientists (as I recall - it's been a while) return to the past to alter it and prevent the massacres of the native Americans by Columbus. I thought it was a great premise and well carried out. Why I'm mystified is in trying to relate this book to Card's apparent views.

        •  lots of the Ender's Game sequels (6+ / 0-)

          were at their heart about cultural sensitivity.

          Not sure exactly when he went crazy.

        •  Mormonism and the "lost tribes" (5+ / 0-)

          One of the older views of Mormonism is that "[T]he Lamanites are among the principal ancestors of the American Indians." No one quite says how, though there are theories that the lost tribal members made their way to Asia and then to the Americas, though there's the little problem of predating by ten thousand years or so, plus the time to get to Asia from the ME, but hey, God's part of this picture, so maybe it's miraculous. I don't know, but my dad, an historian, near the end of his life and sick, decided that the Book of Mormon answered the whole origin of Native Americans question.

          It could be that OSC is rolling around in that myth as well. He did a trippy series of books, The Tales of Alvin Maker, that have the American Indian tribes own all the land west of the Mississippi through an alternate series of events in colonial times. As I read the first book I thought of my dad's acceptance of Mormon theory of Native American origin and wondered if Card was Mormon. Latter I wasn't surprised to find out he was.

          •  earthfall (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            earthfall is another series that can be read as mormon allegory.

            it also has similar co-dependent aliens like in the ender series. no idea if that fits mormon theology.

          •  The Alvin series started off as a good idea (0+ / 0-)

            and I wish he'd spend his time finishing the damn thing instead of doing all that Endless Waggin crap (not to mention the right wing potboilers).  

            I don't even mind that Alvin is supposed to be Joseph Smith. Hey, it's a fantasy novel. You can do that there.

            The thing about quotes on the internet is you cannot confirm their validity. ~Abraham Lincoln

            by raboof on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:31:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Me Too, Buy Used Copies, Borrow, Whatever (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stevemb, ichibon, caul, kyril, Dirtandiron

      But whatever you do, DON'T buy  one of his books new.  He's a fucking pathetic asshole who doesn't know when to shut his homophobic racist mouth.  Another fine example of the worst of the Mormon Church.

      Steal that dick brain's dog shit movie as soon as the first bootleg copy becomes available and pass it out to whoever in your circle of friends is even thinking of buying a theater ticket.

    •  Can't we separate the artist from his art? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rezkalla, kyril

      Wagner was an appalling person, but his music sublime.

      What I liked best about Card's Ender series was the humanity of the concept behind ' Speaker for the Dead'. Even complete s**ts deserve to be understood, else we will inevitably be beset with more of them.

      Real plastic here; none of that new synthetic stuff made from chicken feathers. By the morning of 9/12/2001 the people of NYC had won the War on Terror.

      by triplepoint on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 08:07:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Orson who™? n/t (12+ / 0-)

    Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

    by JeffW on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:25:04 AM PDT

  •  note that this is from May (15+ / 0-)

    I only mention that because it actually precedes most(?) of the talk about boycotting the movie -- which is a side point.

    The money quotation, in a way:

    Will these things happen? Of course not. This was an experiment in fictional thinking.

    But it sure sounds plausible, doesn't it? Because, like a good fiction writer, I made sure this scenario fit the facts we already have -- the way Obama already acts, the way his supporters act, and the way dictators have come to power in republics in the past.

    No, Mr. Card, it sure doesn't sound plausible. His approach-avoidance dance about prediction vs. fiction isn't even relevant.

    "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

    by HudsonValleyMark on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:36:48 AM PDT

  •  Thanks to this idiot I learned something... (12+ / 0-)

    I agree with you that Ender's Game was not a great book and his characters, in all his books, certainly have an ugly conservative "values" bent to them.  I believed that before I learned about his politics.

    Still I had several of his books in my audible library including Ender's Game which was the most recent purchase.  Imagine my surprise when I learned that I could return his book and get a credit for a different book.  I promptly returned Ender's Game and felt it was my own little protest since I will never go see the movie.

    If he doesn't STFU, I will be returning his other titles as well.  I haven't to date because I don't want to abuse the feature but still...

    ...The function of man is to live, not to exist. I shall not waste my days trying to prolong them. I shall use my time. - Jack London

    by dlemex on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:37:47 AM PDT

  •  Very disappointing to hear a (15+ / 0-)

    successful writer speak so ignorantly, so dismissively, and so hatefully.

    Did I say 'disappointing'?  Make that 'appalling.'

    Card knows better and pretends to speak as if he doesn't.  

    •  I don't know if he does (10+ / 0-)

      I get the impression that he live in a Fox New LDS bubble that doesn't let in reality.

      It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

      by Solarian on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:28:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting. He's an intelligent, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ticorules, caul, kyril

        accomplished writer.  Not the best out there, but certainly good enough to sustain an imaginative narrative for a fairly wide audience.

        It's disturbing to think he can't let much more reality in -- but I can see where you could be exactly right.  In a way, that makes Card even more unsettling than if he were just a shill for the church.

        •  Well, living in the Mormon bubble... (6+ / 0-)

          where you can go years without ever seeing a black person, it's easy to avoid any unpleasant encounters with reality.

          My son is currently living in Utah, and he is just astonished by the near-complete absence of diversity. As in, going months without seeing a person of color.

          •  I ate at a chinese restaurant in SLC (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ralphdog, caul

            that had no visible asian people working in it. Maybe someone was hidden back in the kitchen.

          •  Speaker for the Dead has Black characters (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Be Skeptical, caul, Ahianne, kyril

            portrayed with great sympathy. Card made a point of not identifying the race of any of his Brazilian characters explicitly, but Blacks are unavoidable in Brazilian society today. Ouanda Quenhatta (Wanda Kenyatta) Figueira Mucumbi is an unmistakably Black name. This implies that her mother Bruxinha (Little Witch)/Cleopatra was Black, as suggested by her also African name.

            The situation between the humans, the Piggies/Pequeniños and the Buggers becomes as non-racist as one can well imagine, due to Ender's empathy and insight.

            I gave up on the Ender series when Jane effectively became omnipotent via her magic powers within the philote realm. As for Card nowadays, I have no idea.

            Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

            by Mokurai on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:38:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It was very disappointing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Remediator, caul

          check the essay at the end of Empire some time (or, read Empire) and see if you can see any sign of tongue in cheekness, or willingness for debate. Everyone in that book who is "liberal" is ultimately evil. The military guy who's doing doctoral work at Brown isn't receiving an education, he's being taught how to infiltrate a bastion of "the enemy."

          It was sickening to me in a way that I can't really compare without doing a full Godwin.

          It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

          by Solarian on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:38:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It seems almost impossible doesn't it? But (7+ / 0-)

          that goes to show that it isn't about intelligence...but more about critical thinking and maybe the ability to withstand propaganda or one's own biases.  

          Dollarocracy is not Democracy

          by leema on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:46:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Critical thinking isn't a generalized skill. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            It's domain-specific. Most people don't actually think critically outside their areas of expertise; they rely on trusted sources and are often easily manipulated by charlatans who play to their audience's preconceptions. That's why we have many examples of people who are highly effective critical thinkers in some fields, but have blind spots in specific areas like vaccines, evolution, and climate change. Card has bought his church's party line on homosexuality.

            Critical thinking can also be context-specific. Someone might be able to think critically about a subject in an abstract or hypothetical context but not in a real one. It's particularly common for critical thinking to be derailed by reality when a subject is emotionally- or politically-charged. In Card's case, his fiction is actually anti-racist (though like Heinlein and other SF writers of the same era, he generally shows it through implication and allegory) - but when he's confronted with real black people, his political views and conditioned emotional reactions cloud his thinking.

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:19:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Although Critical thinking can be relegated to (0+ / 0-)

              one's area of expertise it is often the very opposite!   Because one tends to form biases around that which one believes one knows.   Even scientists (who one would think would be more able to think critically)  have often gone so far as to actively resist factual, objective info so as not to disturb their biases (case of H. pylori and Barry Marshall springs rapidly to mind).  

              Humans resist critical thinking in areas where they have a vested belief.  Be it their area of "expertise" or their "culture".

              It has been shown in studies that a different area of the brain is used for critical thinking than beliefs...but that the belief area (sort of an easy short cut to an answer) is used more readily  than the critical thinking area.   As I recall (although my memory is not as good as it was) some persons are more apt to use the critical thinking areas of their brain more often than others.

              Dollarocracy is not Democracy

              by leema on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:15:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Emotional attachment can create blind spots (0+ / 0-)

                in anyone. If an expert gets too attached to his or her theory, s/he might be less likely to think critically about it.

                But it's important to differentiate between the basic capacity to do something and the ability to exercise it under specific circumstances. Our expert, if s/he really is an expert, would be perfectly capable of thinking critically about the theory in question if it weren't his/her own pet theory. The belief problem is a circumstantial limitation, not an absolute limitation.

                The primary absolute limitation on critical thinking is background knowledge. One doesn't necessarily need to be an expert in a field to think critically about a problem - but one does at least need a solid understanding of the field at the level necessary to understand the problem and its context. And it really helps to know the standard ways of approaching similar problems, lest one end up attempting to reinvent the wheel. The deeper one's background knowledge, the more likely it is that one's efforts at critical thinking will actually produce something interesting.

                It may be true that people might be less likely to attempt critical thinking within their specific narrow area of greatest expertise, especially on particular problems to which they believe they already know the answers. But when they do attempt it, they're most likely to come to accurate/interesting/novel conclusions when thinking about their area of expertise and closely related areas, and most likely to come to false/useless/unoriginal conclusions and fall prey to deception and emotional manipulation when thinking about areas about which they know very little.

                "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                by kyril on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:31:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  Homophobia is always bad... (12+ / 0-)'s easy for liberals and Democrats to trash RW loons like Card when they spew homophobia and racism.

    Then comes the latest Greenwald news item and Twitter is filled with liberals and Democrats who call Glenn a "faggot".  They hope Glenn dies of AIDS.

    Greenwald can piss me off too, but there's no excuse for homophobia EVER.  

  •  I will be in line at midnight (hear me out) (24+ / 0-)

    I realize what I'm saying here will be vastly unpopular.. but I will see this film, first night, first showing, and maybe repeatedly.   There are several artists with whom I have strict disagreements, and OSC as he has grown older has definitely moved this way.

    Earlier in his writing, these opinions were not pronounced (at all) and in fact, one of the better statements of why homophobia is garbage is presented within the Ender's series (I believe in Children of the Mind) wherein he asks 'why would you ever think a soul has a specific gender, or could neatly be sorted into 'girls' and 'boys' "

    In his later life, he's went nuts.. and I can't get past that.. however, in regards to the film:

    He's already received his payout.  Huge grosses make almost no difference to him.   But Lionsgate Studios has been one of the most important production houses in the motion picture industry on behalf of the LGBT issues.

    As somewhat of a kick in OSC's patch, Lionsgate, for their reasons, are donating percentages to LGBT political activism groups, and that has to be commended.

    Hundreds of workers put time and effort in this, and almost all of those with back-end participation are on the right side of this issue.

    It's sad that OSC, a man who writes so beautifully (IMHO) in his public real world life can go nutso.. but I prefer to remember the book as it is, and I don't see how punishing Lionsgate in any way makes any impact on OSC

    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

    by Chris Reeves on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:04:42 AM PDT

  •  Ender's game is in my top 5 books of all time (10+ / 0-)

    And Speaker for the Dead is probably in my top 20. It kills me that a man like Card wrote it but it doesn't take away from the fact he's a brilliant writer.

    •  David Brin, who posts here, loathes Card's work (6+ / 0-)

      This reddit thread explains why.

      We don't want our country back, we want our country FORWARD. --Eclectablog

      by Samer on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:39:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Brin writes: (23+ / 0-)
        Unless Scott Card comes here to speak up for himself, I must be restrained. Except to say a few careful things.
        Yes, we have overlap in our fan bases. Because both of us do sci fi adventure very well. Where we disagree is over some very large basic assumptions:
        1) Almost every OSC tale is about a demigod who - after some life abuse - gets his "Hogwarts letter" informing him that he is actually an ubermensche demigod, not just above average but exponentially better and wiser than humanity as a whole. Don't knock the formula! It appeals to many nerdy-male readers and AE Van Vogt, Hubbard, Geo Lucas and others used it to craft effective wish fantasy entertainment.
        When I caught myself doing it, I swore never! I prefer Star Trek in which lots of merely way-above-average folks have to team up and pool skills to get stuff done.
        2) Note how this meshes with Scott's pessimism vs my "optimism". I believe the enlightenment/tech/west/american/ experiment has accomplished a lot, taking us about halfway from traditional feudalism to Star Trek. We are still in TERRIBLE PERIL! And my new novel EXISTENCE talks about crossing that minefield and doesn't promise that our modern methods will get us there!
        But I believe they are the only ways we CAN get there. In contrast, every single Card tale shows a demigod (standing in for Card) stepping up and saving us from ourselves. Because we're stupid and awful.
        While this portrayal may be biased, I doubt anyone can contend that I get the basic facts wrong.

        "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

        by Bob Love on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:16:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Brin has the formula nailed. I would just add that (10+ / 0-)

          Card's "demigod" heroes are TERMINALLY ANNOYING!. The only reason any one of them would be allowed to live beyond the age of 6 is their superpowers.

          I know that sounds grumpy for which I apologize. But really.

        •  Hmm, let me think about Brin's comments (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jeopardydd, caul, kyril

          Let's see. Things of Card's that I've read:

          Most of his old short stories and novellas. I don't remember any "ubermenshce demigods" in those.

          All the Ender books. Brin's right here, though I don't really recognize a "demigod" in Speaker, Xenocide, or Children, depending I guess on your views of Peter and maybe Wang-mu in Children. Jane shouldn't count. It doesn't help Card that he (like so many writers) went back to the same well time after time.

          Wyrms. Well, I don't agree with Brin on this one. Yes, Patience is the subject of the prophecy.  But she doesn't really do all that much herself.

          Treason (Card's 1988 revision of the 1979 novel A Planet Called Treason). I'll give Brin that one, but it's a whole planet filled with people with crazy abilities. The protagonist just manages to learn more than he was born with.

          Part of Homecoming. A book or two, no more than that. I got bored with it. Can't comment on Brin.

          Alvin Maker. Have to give Brin that one. Personally think it got worse after Prentice Alvin.

          Pastwatch. Whatever you think of the book, I don't remember any demigods there either.

          •  pastwatch (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bob Love, stevemb, caul

            super scientists travel to the past, loaded down with exact knowledge of future events, a miracle virus, and scientific knowledge far in advance of the time. that's pretty demi-goddy to me.

            •  I disagree as I liked this book a lot.... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              caul, kyril

              The 3 main characters are African, Mayan and Muslim... Kinda odd for a guy whose gone off the racial deep end. The person who figured out the past was messed with wasn't special at all. She just happened to grew up in the Pastwatch program and figured out ways to manipulate the machines. The characters are smart but so are most people who work in such a program, normal scientists.

              They come to the conclusion that a European dominated society or the hypothetical Native American dominated society both end in disaster but for different reasons and try to set a course where both end up winning by cooperation.

              I found it fairly brilliant that some white person didn't come save the day. In fact, the vast majority of white people in the novel (Columbus's crew) were the villains. Even Columbus was portrayed as far from saintly but he learns the error of his ways and marries the African woman.

              As for Ender's Game. I liked the book as well but not as much as Bean's version of events in Ender's Shadow. I won't go see the movie because I think it's going to suck compared to the book, like most adaptations and especially because OSC is plain friggin loco. I'll rip the torrent, watch and delete.

          •  What disturbs me is that so many of Card's books (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            caul, stevemb

            are about ephebes.

            "I was a big supporter of waterboarding" - Dick Cheney 2/14/10 UID: 8519

            by Bob Love on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 09:04:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Brin's reading is superficial. (0+ / 0-)

          Of course, that applies to most readings of social science fiction, especially when the main characters are children and teens; people's preconceived notions about speculative fiction get in the way of any attempt to take the work seriously.

          I don't mean any insult to Brin's intelligence. He knows his stuff and I love his work (and he has great politics too!). But he is a writer, not a literary critic, and he writes in a sub-genre (hard science fiction) where the more subtle literary devices are avoided because they cause confusion.

          But he's reviewing social science fiction - a sub-genre where those same subtle literary devices are embraced. Card in particular makes extensive use of metaphor and allegory in all his work. And Ender's Game is a prime example. The entire novel is a multilayered allegory.

          Within the book's universe, Ender himself is a metaphor for humanity, which in turn is a metaphor for the United States and/or the industrialized West in the real world. He embodies us alternately at our best and our worst, our brilliance and our brutishness, our selfishness and our empathy, our fear of the unknown and our insatiable curiosity. His siblings, in yet another layer of allegory, are metaphors for the duality of his nature; their antagonistic relationship and their reluctant cooperation are metaphors for his internal conflicts and the uneasy peace he makes within himself. Peter's manipulation of Valentine mirrors Ender's rationalization of his own behaviour.

          The book invites us to examine our notions of morality, both individual and collective - our ideas about war, violence, self-defense, innocence, guilt, self-deception, and rationalization - as they play out first in Ender's life and then on a grand scale as a clash between civilizations. Much of the plot is supposed to be somewhat morally-ambiguous; Card consistently sets up situations where Ender believes he had 'no choice', and then in the aftermath makes us wonder if he really did have a choice after all.

          We're not supposed to like Ender. We're certainly not supposed to idolize him. He's as much a supervillain as he is a superhero. We're supposed to struggle to identify with him. In fact, Card's repeated heavy-handed reminders of Ender's status as a victim of circumstance are there because most readers would otherwise be hard-pressed to find any reason to empathize with him at all. And despite that effort to humanize him - or perhaps in part because of it - he still makes us feel uneasy, conflicted, and sometimes sickened. And that's the point.

          If you miss all that, the book is just a mediocre and overly-violent adventure story with an implausible and unlikable main character. There's not much to recommend it other than Card's generally-enjoyable prose. But it's hardly unique in that regard. A lot of books suck if you miss the point.

          Imagine reading Lord of the Flies or Camus's The Stranger literally without recognizing the allegory. I don't have to imagine; they were assigned in my high school freshman English class. I was an avid reader, so of course I read all my books in the first week. But at 12 I wasn't yet mature enough to recognize the subtexts on my own. So my memory of them is that they're absolutely awful, violent, gruesome, depressing books about horrible people. The Stranger also managed to be slow and boring.

          I was traumatized by the books and tuned out all subsequent discussion and assignments. But in reading about them as an adult (I'm still not brave enough to actually reread them) I've discovered that there's apparently a lot more to them than the superficial, literal stories that I remember from reading them when I was 12.

          Ender's Game has a lot in common with Lord of the Flies. In fact, it's actually a substantially more complex and challenging book. I don't think everyone necessarily has to like it, but it should at least be treated fairly.

          "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

          by kyril on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:57:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Oh Brin (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Samer, mattakar, stevemb, caul, Ahianne, kyril

        I was going over some paintings I did in middle school and came across one labeled TAASF Streaker.

        Space Dolphins FTW.

        It is better to be making the news than taking it; to be an actor rather than a critic. - WSC

        by Solarian on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:33:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That was interesting (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        caul, stevemb, Samer

        I have never met David Brin and was not all that familiar with his politics, but I am friends with his brother Dan. In the reddit thread, David explains that he is not a lefty, but is a libertarian. Dan is definitely a liberal, which is one of the reasons we are friends.

    •  I majored in Philosophy (13+ / 0-)

      I even was in an MA program before I dropped out. So I read lots of philosophy. Including Martin Heidegger. At the time I was a graduate student it was still up for debate as to the extent to which Heidegger collaborated willingly with the Hitler regime. The issue seems to have been sorted out in the past 20 years and not in a way flattering to Heidegger. Heidegger was a brilliant thinker. He was also a Nazi. There's no getting around that. Whether or not his thinking was indelibly tainted by his political association or whether the two can be separated is still a matter of conjecture. It's certainly done nothing for his reputation. Nor has Hannah Arendt's association with Heidegger (before, after and even during the Nazi era) done much to enhance her reputation.

      It's really tough to decide when to separate who a person is and what they've created and sometimes it's entirely necessary (I've met plenty of writers whose work I adore but who were such loathsome individuals  that I was glad to have met them only once).

    •  Ender's Game is in my top 5 also (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Texnance, javan, caul, kyril

      i was so distressed when I found out he was a wingnut wackjob

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:05:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Really? Wow. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      apimomfan2, caul

      I urge you to read this and this, and see what you think of them.

      Personally, given how amazingly many similarities Ender shares with Adolph Hitler (as noted in the first of those two citations), I find it amusingly ironic that Card is calling Obama 'Hitler'... because even if it wasn't intentional, one of the characters he seems to identify with the most is eerily similar to Adolph Hitler. One would almost think Card was complimenting Obama, in an especially creepy way.

      •  I mentioned upthread about the short story of (0+ / 0-)

        Ender's Game.  It differs significantly from the novel in that Ender is never aware that he's not playing a game, one which, on the final screen, is simply unfair, so that the only option is genocide.  He can't even understand why all the military men present at this final level of the game are cheering when he does it.  

        A story with far more nuance and moral dimension was killed by a writer who fancied he had a novel in him.

        Is it courageous to propose tax cuts but not identify a single tax expenditure to rein in? Is it courageous to target your deepest cuts on the poorest Americans, who vote in lower numbers and provide little in campaign contributions?

        by caul on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 06:26:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I did not know just how, uh, out (6+ / 0-)

    there Card was regarding his right-wing insanity.  I only know him from the book "Homebody." It is one of the most misogynistic books I have ever read in my life. It made me so angry I was fuming over it for days.

    Based upon my experience of "Homebody", I have no doubt that he's also homophobic as well.

  •  "He hates the very idea of compromise" (33+ / 0-)

    If ever a president lived whose greatest fault lay in his idealistic belief in the power and merit of compromise, it is Barack Obama.

    That Mr. Card would base his argument (or "thought experiment") on such a patently untrue premise makes the endeavor little more than an illustration of the GIGO principle.

    I live under the bridge to the 21st Century.

    by Crashing Vor on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:03:39 AM PDT

  •  Card is barking mad, (7+ / 0-)

    and I'll never watch the Ender film.
    Lion's Gate made a huge mistake paying Card, and I think it's right that they take a big hit for it.

  •  The Age-Ups To Avoid Child Actors Were Risky... (5+ / 0-)

    ,,,and the results as seen in the trailer are a movie brough to you by the numbers "9", "0", "2", "1", and "0".

    On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

    by stevemb on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:52:13 AM PDT

  •  Side-Bar Comment on The Ender Empire (6+ / 0-)

    Lost in all the side-show that Mr. Card has created with his "observations" on Obama, Gay Marriage, etc. is the fact that Ender's Game will probably be a crappy movie. Why? Because it misses the entire point of what made the story interesting in the first place. I first encountered "Ender's Game" in its original short story form. With the point being that Ender, as a young child, had no idea that his game plaiying in the zero g room was actually setting up formations for space battles. That was the kicker at the end. I had absolutely no interest in the endless string of novels that metasized from that story because it seemed that Card was milking a cute concept to death and beyond.

    I guess the film makers abandoned the short sory set-up because the way the trailer is cut it screams out "Ender will save humanity" from the start. It reminds me of the "Eight Million Ways to Die" fiasco. Very quickly, that book was the fifth book in Lawrence Block's Matt Scudder detective series. Matt is an alcoholic in those first five books, which the final sentence of the fifth book having him admit that yes, he's an alcoholic. Tremendously moving. For whatever insane reason, the screenwriter, Oliver Stone, starts the movie version with that declaration. totally ruining its impact. I thought "Eight Million..." was a total botch because of that and it's looking like the ENder crew is making the same type mistake.

    •  Those Ender things must be making money (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      because he's sharecropping them now.

      I wish I could figure out who is buying them ...

      The thing about quotes on the internet is you cannot confirm their validity. ~Abraham Lincoln

      by raboof on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:52:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Another Block fan here, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      and I have to say, you are spot on with my feeling for that series.
      Blocks Keller series confuses me: I don't want to like him, he's a killer after all, and its not like his victims are all bad people, but somehow Block portrays Keller as a decent human. An amazing writer.
      I used to read Card, but over time I saw his stories become more and more right wing, so stopped early on in the Ender series..

      Severely Socialist 47283

      by ichibon on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:04:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have only read the short story... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debby, Texnance, caul, happymisanthropy

       The revelation that the 3D games being played are real battles is central to the impact of the story.

      Revealing it at the start would be akin to revealing that
      Bruce Willis is dead at the beginning of "The Sixth Sense".

      “I used to be disgusted....Now I try to be amused" --Elvis-- My first attempt at a diary..

      by PlinytheWelder on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:12:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly.... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        when I read Ender it was such twist it blew me away.  That was so long ago.  I never knew what the author was really like or I never would have read his books.

        Never regret something that made you smile

        by Texnance on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 10:42:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  ENDER'S GAME (7+ / 0-)

    is on many school reading lists.

    THAT worries me more than this movie does.

    I'd always had a little weird niggling thought in the back of my mind when reading his early work. Nothing to pin down, just an unease about some of the ideas he used in his fiction about children as innocent actors of genocide, things like that. But he was a good wordsmith,and many younger writers felt he was a good mentor at workshops, so I put aside my undefined concerns for a while.

    OSC spent quite some time in the early 80's presenting a 'secular humanist revival' panel at SF conventions, talking about Jefferson and Lincoln. I thought that was pretty nifty, thought he was emphasizing that although he was a devout Mormon, he believed in the principles of separation of Church & State, an evolving Constitution, a liberal democracy.

    Then a friend gave me a copy of the essay OSC wrote for a Mormon publication 'The Hypocrites of Homosexuality' and I realized he was a liar willing to hide his true beliefs to gain an audience. I haven't picked up a book by him since.

    "You bring politics into everything, Congressman" - Gabriel Gomez (R) to Ed Markey (D) 6/5/13 during debate.

    by NMRed on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 11:50:21 AM PDT

    •  Not sure there's anything to be worried about (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jeopardydd, NWTerriD, sphealey, kyril

      As a standalone work. The book is pretty clear about the genocide that occurs and Ender's regret over his role. The training of children to be military weapons is happening, right now, in the United States. That's why games and movies are being licensed by the U.S. military. The book absolved Ender in that he isn't aware of what he's doing, and I remember being shocked myself when I realized he'd basically killed an entire species. But it doesn't speak approvingly of child armies. Jesus Loves You.

      by DAISHI on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 02:58:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the first book attempts to absolve Ender (5+ / 0-)

        but he does not feel absolved, and in later books their weight of his guilt comes upon him

        Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
        Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:08:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, but (4+ / 0-)

          But, see, he feels guilty because he is 'the god among men', who is not only smarter and prettier and manlier and more aggressive than everyone else, but also more sensitive and more kind and more shy and more .... well, he's basically better in every single possible way than every other person in the universe.

          But, see, even though ENDER beats himself up for what he did, the book (and at least the first sequel, I couldn't stomach any of the others, though I did try so that I could write usefully about the series as a whole) in every other way tells us that he did the right thing, made the right choice, made the only possible choice. That the reason he is beating himself up is because he is simply too good, too noble, too sensitive.

          I highly recommend this essay as a starting point for this argument. It's much better than what I wrote, and covers most of the bases admirably. You might also be interested in this one, although I admit I feel certain aspects of it are reaching a bit.

          •  those were great links (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ferg, sphealey, Ahianne, kyril

            sometimes i feel that the people who hate the book that much are reading a completely different book.

            I loved the short story because I was addicted to video games at the time and loved the idea of little children being video game masters (which is commonplace now but was not true in 1977).  There was also talk then about the military using video games to train soldiers.  Those two ideas came together in Ender's Game.  Many years later when the novel length version was released, the kernel of the story stayed the same.

            i have read the novel many times. I deliberately re-read it every few years to see if adulthood and greater maturity will change my opinion of it.

            Both the critiques you link to struggle with the idea that Ender is being presented as innocent and good, even though a killer of large numbers of people makes us think of Hitler and other mass murderers.

            But I never thought of Ender as innocent, or good!  Maybe that is because of the mixed feelings I have about killing and war.

            The center of the book is the goal of military training writ large--how do you take an otherwise caring young man and make him willing to kill large numbers of people on command?  Answer: (1) it helps if you start with someone who already feels threatened and desperate enough to fight every battle as though he were fighting for his life.  (2) you start training him very young.  (3) you hide the fact that he is killing people until you absolutely have to tell him.

            They figured out a way to train a killer/general  who could win a war that required mass killing and do it without being consumed by guilt.  But Ender does end up consumed by guilt.  Even though what he did was "necessary".  Even though he was simply "aimed as a weapon" and did not consciously know what he was doing.

            But no one compares Jean Luc Picard to Hitler for killing the Borg.  No one compares Data to Hitler for killing the Borg queen.  And they both knew what they were doing!  No one compared Kirk to Hitler for killing those flying pancake parasite creatures (!).  Those are just the first 3 Star Trek parallels I can think of off the top of my head.   I have never seen this kind of discussion about the morality of wartime genocide applied to any other science fiction character who has killed in this way.  Have you?

            Anyway, thanks for the links.  I find the whole controversy about the morality of the killing in Ender's Game very interesting.

            Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
            Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 06:50:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well actually (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Debby, stevemb, kyril

              It was not in the movies, but in the television show, there was a discussion about the implications of killing all of the Borg. They discussed it in "I, Borg" when they were deciding whether or not to use a program to infect Hugo and wipe out the entire race. They decided that even though the Borg were a massive threat to their own race, genocide was wrong.

              The movies pretty much rewrote the entire show.

              Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

              by moviemeister76 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:55:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  school reading lists? really? wow (0+ / 0-)

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:08:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A hilarious read by OSC (5+ / 0-)

    Read this piece from 2007 of OSC defending Dubya as a "stand-up president." It's just so perfect in its RWNJ-ness that it almost seems that it can't be real:

  •  Card has abandoned Ender (7+ / 0-)

    Ender's Game was brilliant, Speaker for the Dead sorta interesting.  Everything he's produced since has been retreads of what he's already done, or simply shite.

    Remember, Ender's Game wasn't about politics, or society, it was about one child's journey, and how he turned his weaknesses into strengths, strengths the state was able to use to defeat a vastly superior enemy.  You know, the kind of story a young Obama might have found inspiring.

    Since he wrote Ender's Game, however, he's basically abandoned his own fictional creation.  

    He thinks Obama is the enemy creature attacking humanity.  But his enemy must both be weak and powerful at the same time.  Powerful, because he sees conservatives in the role of Ender.  Weak because he has abandoned his narrative creation, and in order for conservatives to win they must rely on their strength to prevail.  

    He doesn't really believe his own narrative that conservatives can turn their weaknesses into strengths, because they aren't weak.  And so he goes back to the narrative that Obama is weak.

    He's basically become a parody of his own narrative brilliance.  A brilliance he has not been able to recreate since his first two Hugo awards.  Since he has abandoned his creative integrity, all he has left as a writer of fiction is rehashing the same story again and again from different characters perspectives.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - FDR. Obama Nation. -6.13 -6.15

    by ecostar on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 12:26:11 PM PDT

  •  Replace "Obama" with "Orson Scott Card" in his (4+ / 0-)

    screed, and he has nailed his own agenda and personality. Thank you, Mr. Card!

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 01:08:53 PM PDT

  •  OSC is a local embarrassment (0+ / 0-)

    and has been for years.

    Fortunately, his main public forum for this lunacy, The Rhino Times, a local weekly, died a much deserved and overdo death last month.

    It had been losing more and more money every year and the idiots running it were staring bankruptcy in the face if they kept publishing.

  •  Navy Professional Development Reading List (0+ / 0-)

    Enders game was on the list for years as a recommended title for enlisted sailors.  Naval service tends to promulgate conservative values. I can remember reading Enders game (at least the novella form) in Analog magazine.

    I will probably see the movie as a redbox rental. (My wife does not enjoy sf so if I go it will be as an afternoon hookie moment.)

    This years list

    The list
    The list is broken down into two categories: Essential Reading, or 18 books deemed the best of the lot, and 24 others dubbed Recommended Reading. There are three subcategories for each based on the CNO's tenets.

    A "#" next to the book means it's new to the list, a "$" means it is available as an eLibrary e-book, and a "+" means it is available as an eLibrary audio book):

    War fighting First

    • 1812: The Navy's War (George C. Daughan) #$+

    • Cyber War: The Next Threat to National Security and What to Do About It (Richard Clarke)#

    • The Gamble (Thomas Ricks) #$+

    • SEAL of Honor (Gary Williams) #$

    • Shield and Sword (Edward Marolda)

    • Wake of the Wahoo (Forest J. Sterling) #

    Operate Forward

    • Crisis of Islam (Bernard Lewis) $+

    • Execute Against Japan (Joel Holwitt) #

    • Monsoon (Robert Kaplan) #$

    • Neptune's Inferno: The U.S. Navy at Guadalcanal (James Hornfischer) #$+

    • Red Star Over the Pacific (Toshi Yoshihara and James Holmes) #$

    • The Man From Pakistan (Douglas Frantz and Catherine Collins) #$+

    Be Ready

    • A Sailor's History of the U.S. Navy (Thomas Cutler) +

    • Navigating the Seven Seas (Melvin Williams Jr. and Sr.) #$

    • In the Shadow of Greatness (J. Welle, J. Ennis and Katherine Kranz) #$

    • The Morality of War (Brian Orend) #

    • Time Management From the Inside Out (Julie Morgenstern)

    • Wired for War (P.W. Singer) #$+

    War fighting First

    • Art of the Long View (Peter Schwartz)

    • Shackleton's Way (Margot Morrell and Stephanie Capparell) $

    • Six Frigates (Ian Toll) +

    • Starship Troopers (Robert Heinlein) $+

    • The Second World War, Volume 1: The Gathering Storm (Winston Churchill) $

    • The Seventh Angel (Jeff Edwards) #

    • To the Shores of Tripoli (A.B.C. Whipple)

    • Tried by War: Abraham Lincoln as Commander in Chief (James McPherson) #$+

    Operate Forward

    • Aircraft Carriers at War (James Holloway III) $

    • On the Origins of War: And the Preservation of Peace (Donald Kagan)

    • One Hundred Years of Sea Power (George Baer)

    • The Elephant and the Dragon (Robyn Meredith) +

    • The Great Wall at Sea (Bernard Cole)

    • The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors (James Hornfischer) $+

    • The Sand Pebbles (Richard McKenna) $

    • With the Old Breed (E.B. Sledge) #$

    Be Ready

    • 1776 (David McCullough) +

    • Integrity (Stephen Carter) #

    • Leadership, the Warrior's Art (Christopher Kolenda)

    • Longitude: The True Story of a Lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest Scientific Problem of his Time (Dava Sobel) $+

    • Master and Commander (Patrick O'Brian) +

    • The Innovator's Dilemma (Clayton Christensen) +

    • The Tipping Point (Malcolm Gladwell) $+

    • Two Souls Indivisible (James Hirsch) $

  •  My theory... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ddn, mathGuyNTulsa, Ticorules

    He didn't like the movie treatment so he's deliberately trying to sabotage it. That is literally the only explanation that makes sense at this point. Either that or someone really needs to sit this guy down and explain the concept of promotion to him. As in, don't say anything stupid until the check clears. All the checks, from all the sequels.

    A little OT but I'd like to see him try to write a new book these days. Let's see how much his right wing hatery has affected his ability to tell a good story. Guarantee he's so far down the rabbit hole now he can't do it without making it some right wing polemic against gays or liberals or atheism or some such nonsense.  

    •  You should check out... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ticorules, happymisanthropy

      ...some of his earlier crackpot whinings. This is absolutely true-to-form, and indeed is relatively mild compared to some of his anti-gay screeds.

      He is not trying to sabotage the movie. He literally believes that anyone who would like it must hate Obama already, because how could someone be so acute as to like his book and not acute enough to hate the child-molesting Hitler monster communist Obama.

      Mind you, having read the first two books, and given them a good once-over with a critical eye, they do not strike me as in any way compatible with progressivism, except in the same way that ice cream is compatible with weight loss: a little bit isn't going to seriously jeopardize your goals, but it certainly is pulling in pretty much the exact opposite direction.

    •  I actually encountered him once (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chloris creator, kurt, kyril

      At the San Diego Comic Con in 2005 he gave a presentation. My husband and I were actually cutting through the room he was talking in to get to another presentation. Halfway through the room we came to a dead stop and stared at him in shock. He really is that crazy. And he doesn't understand comic books very well either.

      Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

      by moviemeister76 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:50:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Which is ironic... (0+ / 0-)

        Considering the fact that he's written quiet a few. He was pegged to do a Superman book until the backlash just made DC drop the project because they didn't want to deal with the headache.

        •  He has indeed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          But if you listen to him talk about comic books you understand that he doesn't get why they are so popular. Listening to him say that the most respected and beloved comic book series are terrible because they use too many words was amusing, though.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 11:49:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  damn. you mean i really do have to (0+ / 0-)

    boycott Ender's Game?

    I've been waiting for this movie for 35 years!

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights for support in dealing with grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 04:03:09 PM PDT

    •  Nope -- see comment by tmservo433 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, kyril

      about halfway down the page currently. That comment at least makes the necessity of skipping the movie debatable.

      "These are not candidates. These are the empty stand-ins for lobbyists' policies to be legislated later." - Chimpy, 9/24/10

      by NWTerriD on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 05:08:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't boycott (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Ender's Game is still an amazing piece of literary fiction. Nowhere in it does OSC spout the hateful speech that he uses in his real life.

      Do not let the bigoted opinions of an artist stop you from seeing a movie based on their work.

      •  I beg to differ (0+ / 0-)

        I don't disagree that you should feel free to enjoy good work no matter what the source. But I do completely disagree that the book does not have a whole panoply of opinions that are utterly inconsistent with progressivism, or for that matter emotional maturity. (Mind you, I'm not saying nobody who is emotionally mature can enjoy it. I'm saying that, just as there are works that aid people in becoming more mature, feeling, and progressive human beings, there are the diametric opposite, and Ender's Game is one of these.)

        I would highly recommend you take a read through this, and, if you want an even more entertaining take on the book, this as well.

        •  You're entitled to your opinion... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          No matter how wrong you might be. Suffice to say that I disagree with you. For the authors of the works that you cited I have slightly more pungent commentary. I don't agree with much of what they have to say either.

      •  I'm not seeing Enders Game, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        my conscience wouldn't allow it.

        I donate directly to worthy causes, thank you very much, Lyingsgate.

  •  I loved Card's books growing up (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bob152, apimomfan2, Texnance, kyril

    And yet now all he does is make me wince in shame.

  •  Horrible what he's become! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Texnance, kyril

    The moral of the "Ender" series--that we glorify war and irrationally hate "the other"--is lost on him. The wonderful insights in his planet of OCD's are lost on him as well.

    What happened to this moral soul? He was once my favorite author, because he had an ethical compass.

    •  But that's not really the moral (3+ / 0-)

      If you go back and look at the Ender series, Ender himself comes to those conclusions, but the reader is encouraged (and at times actually ordered!) to come to more or less the opposite conclusion: that what Ender did was entirely moral, just, and indeed was the only correct course of action.

      Indeed, part of the point of the first sequel is that the only reason Ender agonizes over his actions is because in addition to being the most intelligent, crafty, and all-around awesome being in the universe (c.f. Card writing himself into every book he writes), he is also the most empathetic and sensitive being in the universe. Literally every single other character, including the one who is supposed to be Ender's moral sense, tells him over and over that he was right to do what he did. In fact, if you go back and look, the omniscient narrater tells you more than once that there was literally no other possible salvation for the human race, before Ender or instead of him.

      As far as I can see, the idea behind Ender's game is not so much that we shouldn't glorify war and irrationally hate the other, so much as it is that if you understand the other instead of irrationally hating it, it's a lot easier to destroy it, and then once you've destroyed it (which is of course absolutely necessary) it's unseemly to go dancing about on its grave.

      •  The Intentional Fallacy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Kessel's essay is a good example of why authorial intent isn't always interesting. That essay is mostly fighting against a strawman.

        Even if Card's own intention did match your construction, that intention is irrelevant if the reader came away with a different reading.

        All narrators are unreliable, particularly omniscient narrators.

        ("Fallacy" might be a little strong, but the main point remains.)

        •  Except... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ...a lot of readers did come away with that narrative. I just read it for the first time a couple months ago and came to the same conclusion Fred Fnord posted. And that was before I read any reviews on it and discovered I wasn't the only one.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 08:47:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Well written. Thank you for the diary. n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. As good as I am, the bird is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway. –jbou (2013)

    by Simul Iustus et Peccator on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:27:14 PM PDT

  •  Would it be legal to don sunglasses + a black suit (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    milkbone, happymisanthropy

    and drive up and down Card's street in an unmarked van?  Maybe with some binoculars and some kind of parabolic-looking device?  I just think it sounds kind of fun.

    There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. -Thoreau

    by Frameshift on Mon Aug 19, 2013 at 07:29:24 PM PDT

  •  Sounds Like He Plagiarized "The Turner Diaries" (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, happymisanthropy

    You know, the race war porn that inspired Tim McVeigh and is now part of the GOP bloodstream, like tetanus.  Here's how it starts, with what sounds like Card's imaginary Obama thug army:

    Chapter 1
    Today it finally began! ..... We are at war with the System, .....ever since the Gun Raids two years ago....They knocked on my door at five in the morning. I was completely unsuspecting as I got up to see who it was.....I opened the door, and four Negroes came pushing into the apartment....

    -The Turner Diaries

  •  I liked Ender's Game (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Be Skeptical, Texnance, Ahianne

    and the first of the Alvin Maker books, but I hate funding RW nut jobs. I'm out. He can peddle any of his future spew to the Rand and Palin fans. I hope his movie does ticket sales numbers right up there with Atlas Shrugged!

  •  Mr Card is one short of a full deck (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chloris creator

    Guess I'll need to buy a ticket for Finding Nemo 3 and sneak in.

  •  "Colonial Klink" - heh (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Thanks for reading Card's ravings so I don't have to do what I wasn't going to do anyway. Kind of like slacktavist's readings of the Left Behind series. I read slacktivist's posts for awhile but, even though I suspected they were 10X better written than the fiction they critiqued I got tired of the enterprise.

    I actually read "Ender's Game" as a novella in Analog Magazine when I was a teen. My dad had given me a subscription. Like the scribe of the open letter I loved it! I always thought I would read more Card but somehow never got around to it. I guess that's going to have to remain the case. That's okay. There really are far more good books than I'll ever fine time to read.

  •  In 1986 I had to go to Frankfurt... (0+ / 0-)

    to have my wisdom teeth removed, as the dental clinic in Fulda wasn't equipped to perform oral surgery. When I was waiting for my appointment, I perused the lending library they had at the time. That is where I discovered "Enders Game." It became one of my favorite books, and I became a fan of Orson Scott Card. Over the years I bought every book in the series as they became available. And then...he submitted his essay to the Deseret News. I couldn't understand how someone who could create such caring empathetic characters could himself hold such vile and hateful thoughts. I just couldn't understand it. I took my collection of Orson Scott Card books, packaged them up, and included a note stating that although I had been a fan for many years I could not support his hate. Obviously, I didn’t have his address, so the best I could do was to send this package back to the publisher. Unfortunately my act was a hollow effort as Mr. Card had already benefitted from my purchasing his books, and as far as the publisher is concerned, I’m sure they couldn’t give a flying f&*k either. I resolved then, that Mr. Card would never receive any more of my money.

    Mr. Card’s latest effort, while it may appeal to a certain segment of society, I hope will alienate even more people than he has before, further eroding any hope of making this movie a success. My hope is that the film company will realize that Mr. Card is more trouble than he is worth, and will choose not to produce any sequels. That is my hope. I would like for Mr. Card to pray to his G*d, open his heart and truly know that hate is not a Christian value. I also hope that the genie (or Djinn, if that is your preference) grants me infinite wishes. Now which do you think is most likely to happen?

    To the world you are one person. To one person, you are the world. They can have John Galt, I'll take Joe Hill..

    by p a roberson on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:52:35 AM PDT

  •  Writing isn't work!!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I'd like to take a break from talk of racism to highlight that a person that writes sci-fi books for a living is referring to another person as never having worked for a living.
    Try writing a book.  Better yet, try writing a good one, and make it fiction.  I have written a book - hope to get it published some day - and it's work.

    Please consider taking that back.

    Quote from the movie Wonder Boys in which Michael Douglas discusses his editor ...

    "I sweat blood for five years and he corrects my spelling."

    Can't we just drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub?

    by Rezkalla on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 09:16:33 AM PDT

  •  After reading this: no dollars (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not going to spend money to view Ender's Game. I'm not saying to break the law or anything, but have you noticed that most multiplexes take your ticket at the front door now and you can just go into any old theater you like? I mean after the movie you could just walk right into any one of the other screens and watch another movie. It's probably because the theater makes their money at the concessions stand -- which would be a good place to stop if you were to go to two movies in a row.

    Of course only the movie you bought a ticket for would have their box office show up in the official numbers. Real shame for that second movie. Damn shame.

    There's a difference between a responsible gun owner and one that's been lucky so far.

    by BeerNotWar on Tue Aug 20, 2013 at 03:07:14 PM PDT

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