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Last Friday MSNBC Ed Schultz had a town hall in Alabama. He wanted to go to the deep South and talk directly to the people. He complained about the right-wing talking heads using a narrative of dependency as well as race bating to create a level of angst within the white community. One wonders if he expected to have two women in the audience with prescient stories that put it all in a microcosm.

The following is the transcript of the video that follows. The two women made explosive accusations against many white churches in the South and against local Republican Parties. While many may find what they are saying hard to believe I have had many Republicans in our local Baptist churches tell me similar stories.

ED Schultz: Last Friday night I did a town hall meeting in Birmingham Alabama. … This is what an Alabama public school teacher came to the microphone and said.

Alabama Teacher: I have been a part of public education since 1970, when the schools were first integrated. I see more hatred in the South now than I ever saw in 1970 and I will tell you why. It’s been preached in the pulpit. It’s in the White churches. They are teaching people that if you vote anything but Republican, you are going to hell pretty much.

ED Schultz: Oh! They are preaching it and people are buying it. One Alabama state legislator told me a chilling story about a recent attempt to segregate a local school.

Alabama Legislator: I got a call this week from a White female Republican. We have a school district in our county that has made an application to become independent. The reason she called me was because in the church this past Sunday, they were bullied and told you’ve got to support this school district pulling away from the county so we can minimize the number of blacks that are in our school district. Even though she was Republican she was disheartened because she says she never looked at the party from that perspective.

Head below the fold for more, including video.

Many believe that Americans spend too much time on race issues. The reality is that it is important to do so especially now. The right wing’s southern strategy is in full vogue. What makes the women’s statement important is the context.

Martin Luther King said the most segregated hour in America is at 11 o'clock on Sunday mornings, during church services. That presents several realities. It allows those of ill will to use that homogeneity to indoctrinate and to foment a false reality to be feared, a fear of the "the other."

With the church providing the moral permission to be fearful and "hateful" of "the other," it is not difficult for the right-wing hacks like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly and others to finish the indoctrination. This evil most be continuously exposed and disinfected.

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Originally posted to ProgressiveLiberal on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:34 PM PDT.

Also republished by Street Prophets .

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  •  Tip Jar (193+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Glen The Plumber, karmsy, annieli, TracieLynn, Getreal1246, Cassandra Waites, tgrshark13, ronnied, petral, maggiejean, VA Breeze, wayoutinthestix, BlueMississippi, trkingmomoe, 207wickedgood, annominous, prfb, raptavio, antirove, FiredUpInCA, hopi13, BlackSheep1, slowbutsure, prettygirlxoxoxo, suesue, profundo, blueoregon, tgypsy, eru, nocynicism, Chaddiwicker, GAS, NJpeach, OrganizedCrime, earicicle, thomask, Shockwave, countwebb, Cofcos, poe, skrekk, ichibon, Lujane, Oh Mary Oh, kurt, Jeff Y, philipmerrill, mookins, Lying eyes, carpunder, Denise Oliver Velez, SaraBeth, celdd, PinHole, carlos the jackal, Tchrldy, missLotus, randallt, moviemeister76, sngmama, deminva, WearyIdealist, WakeUpNeo, OHdog, DefendOurConstitution, Lily O Lady, Kristina40, eagleray, tuesdayschilde, mofembot, dannyboy1, EastcoastChick, Mortifyd, marleycat, NM Ray, BluejayRN, Ice Blue, StrayCat, p gorden lippy, here4tehbeer, Militarytracy, createpeace, reginahny, rantsposition, eyesoars, lcrp, cv lurking gf, tung sol, Front Toward Enemy, on the cusp, Mister Met, majcmb1, OldSoldier99, MartyM, AZ Sphinx Moth, DEMonrat ankle biter, Byron from Denver, Raggedy Ann, doroma, melvynny, GDbot, wdrath, Buckeye Nut Schell, global citizen, marina, dotsright, AnnieR, Orinoco, jfromga, eeff, tommymet, glendaw271, MKinTN, HoosierDeb, leonard145b, terabytes, howabout, stlsophos, Joieau, commonmass, zerelda, LaFeminista, Ahianne, Smoh, TomP, wintergreen8694, Betty Pinson, surfbird007, swampyankee, Rogneid, milkbone, marykk, Aaa T Tudeattack, JDWolverton, opinionated, jennylind, coolbreeze, chloris creator, NYC Sophia, tin woodswoman, annan, Empower Ink, Simplify, Oaktown Girl, kevinpdx, collardgreens, jerseyjo, onionjim, stevie avebury, kharma, scamperdo, Crashing Vor, Shippo1776, Dodgerdog1, The Hindsight Times, anodnhajo, our better angels, jennyp, lordcopper, Subterranean, Blu Gal in DE, Matt Z, puakev, AsianAfricanAmerican, USHomeopath, triplepoint, catly, Elizaveta, shesaid, StateofEuphoria, livingthedream, Skennet Boch, Preston S, joeschmeaux, grich01, avsp, Tamar, oortdust, TokenLiberal, absdoggy, Karen Hedwig Backman, DSPS owl, serendipityisabitch, Lordcaradoc, micsimov, xaxnar, dotdash2u, m00finsan, elginblt, splashy, blue jersey mom, Buckeye54, tonyahky
  •  "The Jim Crow Hour" (47+ / 0-)
    Martin Luther King said the most segregated hour in America is at 11:00 on Sunday mornings, during church services. That presents several realities. It allows those of ill will to use that homogeneity to indoctrinate and to foment a false reality to be feared, a fear of the ‘the other’.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:44:22 PM PDT

  •  Self-regarding, self-satisfied, self-righteous ... (31+ / 0-)

    quite beyond redemption and idolatrous of engraven images...

    I preach the church without Christ, where the lame don't walk, the blind don't see and what's dead stays that way! Hazel Motes in "Wise Blood" (Flannery O'Connor)

    by chalatenango on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 07:57:45 PM PDT

  •  Their hateful sermons (32+ / 0-)

    Are not pleasing to God and they will be held accountable for them.  These women should go to churches that preach love of your fellow man and not hate.  They should also read what the "Nuns On The Bus" have to say on this matter.  

    This also reminds me of a story someone I knew told me after Bush won in 2004.  That Sunday she went to her Catholic Church and when the Priest began his serman the first thing he said was that "our side won."  She got up and walked out of the church before she could make comment.  Luckily it wasn't me, I would have made that comment and several more.  

    Never be afraid to voice your opinion and fight for it . Corporations aren't people, they're Republicans (Rev Al Sharpton 10/7/2011) Voting is a louder voice than a bullhorn.

    by Rosalie907 on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 08:22:33 PM PDT

  •  Amazing, not surprising. (14+ / 0-)

    I once heard a story about churches in Alabama that blew my mind. A gay colleague of mine who had left Alabama for obvious reasons, once told me that occasionally Churches in Alabama would be victims of arson.  Rumors would swirl about the event, but no perpetrator would turn up. What my colleague told me is that often times when a Church in Alabama burns down it is because a neighboring church wanted to poach the parishioners.

    So, in that light, preaching of racism in Alabama Churches does not strike me as unreasonable.

    •  I Knew This Guy Who Heard From Some... (0+ / 0-)

      ...other guy that it was really done by aliens. Aliens that dress up like old white men but are actually lizards working for the Queen of England.

      Gosh, if we're allowing innuendo based on rumor, guess a body could say most near anything round these parts. As long as it suits the narrative of a popular diary.

      better, (as in, you can do better)


      Strange that a harp of thousand strings should keep in tune so long

      by jabney on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:09:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Reality check. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Observations by human beings on the ground are actually valid, even when not cited in a publication. In fact, a vast majority of information is based on someone's observation or perception in print or otherwise.

        When I visited Baguio in the Philippines in the late 1980's I visited a tourist attraction called Mines View Park. There was a fenced in spot on a cliff where you could look across a valley to the opposite canyon wall and see the caves that were built into it for gold mining. When I was there I heard tourists, some European and American laughing and carrying on. The focus of the crowds amusement was a group of Filipino children, in tattered clothes and flip-flops, slipping about on the dirt on the other side of the safety rail in proximity of a 90 ft drop off.  The children, 7 or 8 years old, were holding bamboo sticks, upon which a Styrofoam coffee cup was attached.  You see, the tourists were playing a little game with these children.  The tourists would toss a peso in the air, and the children would fight each other on the edge of the cliff to catch it in their cup. This was what the tourists were laughing about. This was great fun.

        I asked a nearby guard who was watching burros, that tourists would sit on for a picture against the canyon backdrop, if any of these children ever fell off the cliff.

        The guard said "yes" with a sad smile.

        Now, I just told you a story of what I saw.  I didn't see kids fall to their deaths the day I was there, but I believe that some have.  I don't think the guard was lying to me. You can say, "Well, this guy tells an interesting story, but he doesn't have any evidence of it."

        True, the only evidence I have of what I experienced is my experience, whether you believe what I experienced or not.

        I believe what my colleague said about the Alabama Church burnings, because he mentioned it in casual conversation about Alabama, where he had grown up, and I had no reason to believe he was lying to me. I respect he experienced what he experienced even if I didn't experience it with him.  

        One person's innuendo or rumor may actually be another person's experience

        To Fight is To Win.

        by FogBelter on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:19:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What Churches? (0+ / 0-)

          White or black? The implication, because this is a diary about white churches, is that the church burnings you are referring were done by white churches. Was that the case?

          The dkos rule of thumb is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. As for me, I'm willing to take your word about the sad story of the kids on the edge of the cliff. Why? Because you said that you heard about it from a person that would know. But third hand rumor is awfully close to the old game of Telephone. How is what you've said in the grandparent post about the church burnings any different from any other conspiracy theory?



          Strange that a harp of thousand strings should keep in tune so long

          by jabney on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:10:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This is why (37+ / 0-)

    so many are turning away from the church, particularly among the young -- even those who consider themselves religious.

    Because churches are no longer preaching kindness, compassion, and being better people. They're preaching the Path Of What I Was Going To Do Anyway.

    I'm an atheist, but I know the difference between living faith and dead faith. And the Path Of What I Was Going To Do Anyway is dead faith. Living faith inspires and compels one to be a better person. That person can be a Republican, even a very conservative one, or a screaming liberal, but will still exemplify love for his neighbor, compassion for the needy and suffering, and humility to recognize one's own shortcomings.

    Dead faith is preached from far too many pulpits.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:01:17 PM PDT

    •  It is not the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Catholic Church I was raised in.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 10:00:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "Dead faith". A useful concept (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raptavio, Cassandra Waites

      I hadn't heard before.

      •  It's Biblical in origin. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        James 2:14-26

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 04:19:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "Dead Faith" really "Faith without deeds is dead" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        raptavio, Cassandra Waites

        This concept comes from James, the brother of Jesus, he said: "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." NIV James 2:17 and "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." NIV James 2:25-26) And it goes without saying that James is talking about "good deeds", or "good action", of course there are always the other kind.

    •  "Compassion for the needy" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Republicans voting on farm welfare to the tune of billions of dollars, then tuning around and voting to cut food stamps by 40 billion dollars over 10 years is not Christ like, sorry, doesn't jive. ESVA Leviticus 19: "9 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.'" This is a little Old Testament teaching on how to treat the poor. The Catholic Church was right to admonish Speaker Boehner to study the church's teaching on the poor, he has no idea.

  •  Shocking digression. (19+ / 0-)

    My 76-year-old, Southern Baptist. lifetime NRA uncle from Oklahoma told me two years ago that his SBC church in Tulsa not only had black members, they even had a mixed-race couple!  

    Mind you, they're still a bunch of misogynist, gay-hating, racial bigots.

    But I was stunned.

    (That sound you are hearing is a paradigm being shifted at Warp Factor Infinity using no clutch.)

    by homogenius on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 09:33:33 PM PDT

    •  Not so shocking, friend... (14+ / 0-)

      I seem to be one of the less bashful Southern Baptists participating at Daily Kos, so I'll jump in here...

      I keep telling folks that, for various reasons, you can't toss 16 million Southern Baptists (or the 45,000 SBC churches) into the same bucket.  Many, if not most, issues boil down to the either the local church or the individual believer; that's the context in which they should be evaluated.

      Each congregation is different, and progress happens differently in each of them.  My SBC churches have gone a little further down that road than has your uncle's, but that isn't a reason for any reaction other than to encourage all of them.

      Bigotry doesn't vanish in a puff of enlightment; it's a process, and very few persons (or churches) can claim to have completed it.  That doesn't mean we cannot take heart in every step along the way.

      I wish you, your uncle, and his church the best.

      The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

      by wesmorgan1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:39:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Point taken (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MrJersey, RichM, avsp

        but how many southern baptists do you think we can chuck into that bucket?  15%?  25%?  50%?

        Given other demographics such as the open use of racist terms by the GOP and the GOP's dominance in the south, many of us northern non-baptists get the feeling the percentage could easily be in the 50-75% range.

        And given that impression, there is a question that  arises.

        At what level does that percentage need to grow to before the people of good will, the actual christians who happen to be Southern Baptist decide it is too racist for them and they seek other places of worship that don't preach hate?

        Seriously, with all respect, I'm just asking.  

        I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

        by Satya1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:30:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Significant number of the kids don't agree. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MrJersey, Subterranean, avsp, Satya1, Mokurai

          But they usually leave before they count as adult members. And wouldn't be allowed the power to change things anyway, since a lot of things are cultural and not in the church bylaws.

          I grew up in a white SBC church. No really open racism. BUT on leaving, I realized that the only black families in the church were either first-generation immigrants, had members who could really give something valuable to the church (I'm talking CD residual and concert ticket professional tithing, here), or... well, there was one girl. Who got hounded out over a loaf of bread during 30 Hour Famine, over the course of the following several years. When any white girl wouldn't have been chided for long about it since the entire youth group had been told that stockpile of bread and water was there in case it got too intense, and when she was really too light-weight to have been participating anyway.

          So hey, yeah we accepted black members... if their ancestors had never been slaves or they could pay well for the privilege. Otherwise, it was just a case of waiting for a reason to make someone miserable enough to go...

        •  I don't claim to speak for all of them... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          avsp, Satya1, DSPS owl

          But what I can say is that all of the SBC churches with which I have been acquainted or affiliated are far more concerned with local community and local issues than they are with what other SBC churches--or SBC leadership--has to say.  In fact, the vast majority of SBC churches don't even bother sending representatives to the yearly Southern Baptist Convention (yes, that's what the national meeting is called).  Most Southern Baptists can't name the current President of the SBC, nor do they know that he's an African-American.; rank-and-file Southern Baptists simply don't pay attention to that stuff.

          Every SBC church hires/fires its own clergy, chooses its own teaching material, and runs its own operations.  None of us speak for the others, and none of us tells the others what to do.  There is no 'chain of command,' hierarchy or lines of authority among Southern Baptist churches.  The SBC could pass a resolution tomorrow welcoming LGBT folks to all facets of church life, and it would not be binding on any individual church.

          You can point to the largest churches in the SBC (often with the loudest pastors), but they have absolutely no connection to any other SBC church save the common name.  Consider First Baptist Church of Dallas (TX) and its pastor, Robert Jefffers; as I learn more about that particular congregation and its "leader", I am utterly convinced that I would never set foot in that place, and that they would not welcome me in any active role once my views on several issues (see "recent controversies" on their Wikipedia page) became known.  That's OK, because that's how Baptist churches work; if Jeffers showed up in my town, I'd do everything I could to convince my church NOT to cooperate with him.  That's OK, too, because that's how Baptist chuches work.

          Just realize that Baptists, even Southern Baptists, are among the most autonomous of deonominations, with a high premium placed on the independence of each congregation.

          The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

          by wesmorgan1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:54:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  About 15 years ago (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites, jabney

        there was a pretty significant exodus of churches from the SBC because the party convention leaders decided to stick their heads (further) up their asses.  Other Baptist coalitions sprung up offering a more moderate-to-liberal posture and there were a lot of defections form the SBC to one of those.  This would not have escaped the notice of the SBC leadership, I'm quite sure.

        I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

        by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:56:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Absolutely true - and that has led to... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites

          ...quite a few churches of "dual affiliation" who pick and choose where and how they interact with other Baptist associations.

          My current church participates in both SBC and CBF (Cooperative Baptist Fellowship) activities.  We are in fellowship with both the Kentucky Baptist Convention (KBC) and the Kentucky Baptist Fellowship (KBF).   We pick and choose which specific opportunities give us the best chance to help our community, and we don't make blind contributions to any of them.

          Neither the SBC, CBF, KBC nor KBF has complained about this arrangement.

          The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

          by wesmorgan1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:59:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's my opinion (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cassandra Waites

            that the Baptist foundation principle of local church autonomy was the reason that it was the Danbury Baptists that Thomas Jefferson had to reassure about the "wall of separation between church and state".  They weren't even gonna let someone in their own denomination tell 'em how to run their church, much less someone in the gummint.

            I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

            by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 10:31:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  And there are a number of small SBC churches (0+ / 0-)

        that don't pay much attention to what happens at the denominational level, and keep not paying attention until someone in the state or national convention realizes they've got gays in the pews or women serving as deacons and down from on high comes the ultimatum.

        Same thing with individual believers. If you aren't actively involved in church ministries and your church isn't the micromanaging-the-flock sort, there's quite a lot of difference in individual belief that can go undetected in people who just go to the service and maybe Sunday School.

        And in my experience, in some SBC churches it's the Sunday School department where the real nastiness comes into play. If you only went to the worship services, you'd never know that half the congregation is vocally homophobic, or that you're sharing a pew with a major player in local Right To Life actions, or that there's never a wrong time for an anti-conservation joke in that deacon's class...

    •  SBC had to recruit Blacks and other minorities (0+ / 0-)

      or shrink to irrelevance, as documented in The Incredible Shrinking Church. Now they have a Black President. A reactionary, Creationist, bigoted, misogynistic Black President, but for many of these people it still counts as progress.

      But they are still shedding members, mostly young people. In the even more benighted churches the losses are apparently even greater overall.

      The Religious Right is doomed, and much of it is reacting to that fact by becoming ever louder and nastier while some have decided to accommodate themselves step by stop to one or another aspect of modernity at a time.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:09:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The ones who lynched my uncle and his brother. (58+ / 0-)

    gathered in the church and went directly from there to do their nasty deed. Where i came from, preachers were sometimes the leaders of the white citizen council. Sometimes the mayor, and sheriff. All were connected to the KKK. The election of Obama, have them coming out of the wood work. And when there's a religious text involved, it gets more dangerous. People are likely to follow their preacher than anyone else.

  •  I know some of you know this, but black people (25+ / 0-)

    were denied entrance and even thrown out of some white churches physically.

    •  There is a good bit on that in the movie Sounder (0+ / 0-)

      where the Taj Mahal character talks about sneaking into a White church building, being discovered, and running for his life. As he ran, he tells the children, he was praying loudly to God to forgive him. "Think nothing of it, my son," comes a voice from above. "I've been trying to get in there for a hundred years."

      Jimmy Carter tried to get a Black friend admitted as a member of his SBC church, and couldn't manage it. Some years later he very publicly quit the SBC over its embrace of new lows in misogyny.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:46:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Organized religion, organized crime, insurance (13+ / 0-)

    companies; what's the difference between these protection rackets?

  •  I'm shocked, shocked . . . (10+ / 0-)

    to find that racism is alive and well in the deep south.

    Seriously, this kind of thing is par for the course in my experience.  Do people here really find this so shocking?  It's disgusting, but to me it's not at all surprising.

    "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

    by FogCityJohn on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:11:38 PM PDT

  •  A lot of the abolitionists came from christian (12+ / 0-)

    churches. I'm really surprised someone hasn't jumped on the "antichrist" idea. It seems to me that a righteous christian church could really pull people away from the crazy by doing a campaign that clarifies Christ's socialistic, revolutionary teachings and compares them to the fundamentalist doctrines of evangelical demagogues. It's not surprising that these hate churches had to go back to the more primitive old testament to justify their hate and that they largely ignore Christ's message of love. But real christians could capitalize on that to put people on a healthier path.

    48forEastAfrica - Donate to Oxfam> "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness." Edna St.V. Millay

    by slouching on Tue Aug 27, 2013 at 11:18:07 PM PDT

    •  Most of the abolitionist were Quakers. Nearly all (25+ / 0-)

      of them. They were the strongest opposition to slavery from the beginning, manned the most effective slave escape routes, and hid escaped slaves. They were even part of the underground railroad. I haven't read much or heard much of any other religious denomination (church) getting that involved. Most were no better than those churches who ignored and stood back while Jewish people were slaughtered during the holocaust, or when they were being murdered on their door steps or dragged away right in front of them. Most all religions have been worthless when it really comes time they should stand up. I have very little faith in them. They simply make themselves feel emotionally good in church services

      •  Abolitionists (17+ / 0-)

        before the Civil War were definitely a fringe position. They were concentrated mostly in New England, with Congregationalists (ancestors to the present UCC= United Church of Christ) and their offspring, the Unitarians, leading the way.

        The Quakers were/are a-political but as the above comment notes they were organizers of the Underground Railroad.

        They were not alone.

        Several major denominations split over the slavery issue in the 1840s & 1850s. (Note, for instance, that the SOUTHERN Baptist Convention was formed in 1845, splitting off from what became the American Baptist Church.) Presbyterians and Methodists, the two dominant Protestant groups, also split on North-South lines.

        Thousands of such church going people gave aid and comfort to runaway slaves as part of the Underground Railroad. And remember the "conductors" (those who hid them and moved them on their way; fed them and MIS-led slave catchers) were nationwide. Only local folk could know the twisty paths through a Carolina swamp or the backwoods trails across the Tennessee hills.

        Then too, the Northern churchgoing folk were the ones in politics. While not calling for abolition, they increasingly insisted on a national approach to the issue. In the 1850s they were willing to accept slavery as a fact on the ground (one that was already showing sings of dying in places like the Appalachian up-country and western Tennessee). But they were hardening in their stance to limit slavery, to prevent its expansion beyond its Mason-Dixon base.
              This stance was far more popular than abolition (including people like Abraham Lincoln) and was what the Southern politicians (like Jefferson Davis) were up against in issues like the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Dred Scott decision, the fury over the Wilmot Proviso.

        This Northern, non-abolitionist, position was what the South initially seceded from in 1861. They believed it was worth breaking up the country rather than see slavery even limited to its current boundaries. That act fueled the Union effort to restore the country for the 1st 2 years of the War.

        It was only in 1863, after much bloodshed and a good deal of change in public and private opinion that Lincoln moved to embrace abolition. Initially this was as a war measure, a way of undercutting Confederate strength behind the battle lines. But having taken years to come to it, Lincoln finally embraced it fully:
        "...a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal."


        "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

        by WineRev on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:36:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  and Jewish young people fought and died (8+ / 0-)

        for civil rights and voting rights

        Jewish causes don't insist you convert or even believe

      •  This show... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rogneid, avsp

        Was really interesting.  I don't remember if the map in question was really used by the underground but it had some interesting info on Quakers and the underground railroad.

        I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

        by Satya1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:35:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I was raised in a house that was once (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        avsp, dotdash2u

        part of the Underground Railroad, in a little Quaker town in Indiana.

        This obnoxious law was soon followed b)- the infamous Dred Scott
        decision, which declared that the negro belonged to an inferior race and
        had no rights which our Constitution was bound to respect. These
        two actions on the part of the slave power which was then dominant in
        our Government fanned to a white heat the flame of hatred against
        the curse of slavery which already prevailed in the free states.
        As love laughs at locksmiths, so liberty depises and defies oppression.
        The immediate effect of the laws to which I have referred was to
        foster the organization of .societies in the free states to render aid and
        comfort to escaping slaves.
        The most potent and effective agent in assisting slaves to obtain
        their freedom by reaching Canada was the Underground Railroad,
        which consisted of organized societies extending across Indiana and
        Michigan, with stations at convenient intervals where escaping slaves
        could be secreted by day and transported by night from one station to
        another on their way to Canada and Liberty.
        This railroad had no track but the rude trail through the wilderness,
        and no train or trolley car, but the means of transportation was a
        farm wagon, on horseback, or on foot, as the case might be. The fleeing
        slave, with the north star as his beacon to liberty, and three or four
        of these hardy Hoosier pioneers as guides and protectors, made his
        slow and painful way to freedom.
        One of these Underground Railroad stations was in Fairmount, and
        the Winslows, Wilsons, Baldwins, Rushes, Davises, Henleys, Stanfields,
        Richardsons, and many others were active agents on this railroad.
        From:  The Making of a Township, 1917; Edgar M. Baldwin, Editor.

        75534 4-ever or until dk5

        by NearlyNormal on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:34:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  From the same book (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          This was the last "consignment" that ever passed over the Underground
          Railroad through Fairmount Township. Some one calculated
          that as many as fifteen hundred runaways passed over the road while
          it existed. Daniel Hill was a frail, delicate-looking man, but it is due
          him to say he was heroism personified. He, like many others, hoping
          that the war then raging would end slavery, enlisted in Company C,
          Eighty-ninth Indiana Volunteer Infantry, and laid down his life at
          Alexandria, Louisiana, on that fruitless raid up Red River

          75534 4-ever or until dk5

          by NearlyNormal on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:42:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Let us not forget -- (0+ / 0-)

          When the Underground Railroad operated Canada was a colony of England, a dictatorship, go figure. (see Slavery was outlawed in that  totalitarian state, being American it would take a bit of study to determine when Canada obtained autonomy from England.

    •  Most slave holders belonged to Christian Churches! (0+ / 0-)

      As did most members of the Ku Klux Klan, "It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing (doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah)". Though we may not know the religious beliefs of Thomas Jefferson, what we do know about him is that he enslaved his own black children for his personal financial gain, though they may have been freed at age 21, still enslaving ones own children for 21 year is hardly Christ like. Quote attributed to Jefferson "He [Jefferson] also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the 'outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man.'" (see sadly Jefferson did not live by Jesus' words and apparently though himself a "moral man" though he enslaved his own children, along with others, many others.

  •  I, for one, can back her up (32+ / 0-)

    Born in SC, currently residing in NC, I have very few friends.

    It's not because I'm a total jerk, or because I'm antisocial. It's because I find very few people I can relate to, politically, or philosophically. I abhor any kind of bigotry. When the n*gger jokes come out, I don't laugh. When they say gay people should be shot, I can't go along. I'm looked at, suspiciously, as some kind of alien infiltrator.

    Consider the cognitive dissonance in the following, paraphrased reasoning: 'we've got to kill Obamacare... if we had National Health Insurance, we'd be fucking socialists... I have to keep taking The Man's shit, because a family health policy will cost me $800.00 a month... unions are communist... don't mess with her (she's got a black baby)... God loves everybody...'

    I don't attend any church, not because I have something against mythical deities, but because I can't stand the hypocrites.

    I like to think it's getting better, but I really think it's getting worse. Maybe it's just my ZIP code. I have to work with these people, and try to get along enough to get by. But I don't know how much more of this shit I can take.

    If it ain't broke, don't break it.

    by Executive Odor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 01:27:21 AM PDT

    •  I feel your pain. (21+ / 0-)

      And it has gotten worse in the past several years. I'm currently unemployed after finally snapping and letting some patrons have it that were spouting racist nonsense. I worked there for 8 years and had to listen to the same things you describe. I had one tell me I was "sinning against the book" by being with my husband (he's black). I had my bosses best buddy tell me how he really  hates interracial relationships but he is okay with mine because my husband is one of the "good ones". Yeah. I give up. I'm so depressed at this point at the state of things I can hardly force myself to look for work but I have to. The idea of having to go back to listening to that crap all day is nauseating. It makes me physically ill thinking about it. Try and hang in there, I wish I could offer you solutions but I'm tapped out.

      ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

      by Kristina40 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:00:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hear your pain (11+ / 0-)

        my niece is married to a black man. They live in New York and it gives me hope to see their wide circle of multi racial friends.

        "Compassion is the keen awareness of the interdependence of all things." Thomas Merton

        by createpeace on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:02:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'll soon be forced (5+ / 0-)

        to find another job, due to circumstances beyond our control. I really dread the evil I don't know, considering the evil I do know.

        A few nights ago, during a break on the job, I was checking the NOAA/NHC website for anything in the tropics that might be coming our way. I said something like, "looks like a couple of wannabe storms coming off of Africa." My co-worker laughed, opened his all-but-toothless mouth, and said, "ain't nothin' good EVER come out of Africa."

        Really? Does everything have to be dipped in that same old slop bucket? Can't our black supervisor be just as competent as his stupid white colleagues, or will he always be just filling a "quota"? No, I didn't say anything; I've tried, but there's no reasoning with people like this.

        I became a marked man back in Obama's first campaign. You know the emails, the ones with pics of Obama shining Palin's shoes; the ones showing him with a spear and a bone through his nose; a watermelon patch growing on the White House lawn? If you didn't get them, good for you. I used "reply all", and told them what sick fucks they were for spreading this kind of garbage. That don't set too well with the good ol' boys.

        If it ain't broke, don't break it.

        by Executive Odor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:45:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yep, I had similar (4+ / 0-)

          horrible experiences during the elections both times. My ex-boss is a tea partier and ever since the ACA passed she's been on my ass constantly. It was bad enough listening to addle brained customers with their bigotry and hate but I've sat through her telling stories of a patron once finding a homeless dude asleep in the dumpster and proclaiming: "Look! Somebody threw away a perfectly good "nword)!" She just thought that was the funniest shit ever. So yeah, how long can one tolerate this on a daily basis? I lasted 8 years because we have to do what we have to do to eat but I finally snapped. Enough is a goddamned 'nuff. The Zimmerman verdict was the proverbial straw. Her posting all kinds of crap on FB about what a thug Trayvon was prior to it. It's hard to reconcile that and be married to a black man and look him in the eyes each night when he asks how my day was and not be able to tell him just how awful it was because I don't want to hurt him. Yeah...not sad about being fired.

          ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

          by Kristina40 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:55:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I collect that material (0+ / 0-)

          on dKosopedia.

          Ethnic and Other Slurs

          Scroll down for the images.

          Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

          by Mokurai on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:53:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Where in NC are you? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Executive Odor

      There are some pretty large pockets of civility in the Triangle, Asheville, and Greensboro.  Carrboro is pretty friendly, except when you're battling someone for a parking space.

      I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

      by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:05:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm currently in the far east (0+ / 0-)

        but looking for opportunities in the western part of the state. I prefer the Smokies to the Atlantic, anyway.

        If it ain't broke, don't break it.

        by Executive Odor on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:08:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mmm. yeah... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Executive Odor

          Down East is pretty red.  Wendell Murphy country, a lot of it.  The northeast is slightly less bad, but not what you'd call "enlightened".  But if you go too far west, you'll run into the same thing all over again.  If you're looking in the mountains Asheville is the obvious first choice, if you can find work there.  It's not exactly a big business community, though there are some jobs in Buncombe Co outside the city proper.  Boone is much the same; college town, good tourist trade, but not a lot of actual "industry".

          In between there's the Triangle, Triad and Charlotte/Metrolina which are listed roughly in the order of blue-ness (based on my experience).  There are jobs there, even some good ones depending on what you do.  Statewide, unemployment is still above the national average (8.8% according to the last figures I heard) but it's probably worse in the far east/far west.  And don't look for it to improve while McCrony & Friends are running Jones Street.

          I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

          by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:35:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  My daughter (0+ / 0-)

      just started her masters degree pursuit in NC, and she is already experiencing this.

  •  Is this really a surprise to anyone? (11+ / 0-)

    We've all known that the Religious Right was taking over every aspect of public life...They've been working on it for 30+ years....and not only in the South either...

    Many have tried to warn us over the years...but were ignored...

    "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." ~ Edward Abbey

    by SaraBeth on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:06:09 AM PDT

  •  Thanks (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    WakeUpNeo, Kristina40, nancyjones

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:52:56 AM PDT

  •  Important Diary! (14+ / 0-)

    I remember one Sunday, my 80 year old Southern Baptist mother was visiting New Mexico.  We took her to the local Baptist church, and about fifteen minutes into the sermon, she told us that she wanted to leave.  The preacher was preaching Republican politics, condemning Democratc policies, praising Fox news, the NRA.  It was a political rally, not a church worship service!

    The use of the church in politics is not limited to the South.  Its time that the religious exemption for tax deductions was ended - especially when it is so blatantly exploited.

    My wife, daughter and granddaughters should have more privacy in their doctor's office than I have buying another rifle or shotgun.

    by NM Ray on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:41:34 AM PDT

  •  Why are you surprised? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    createpeace, merrywidow

    It's much worse than it used to be, and it's because we have a bi-racial president. And, after years of sitting in front of the TV, and years of Fox news, and years of Rush, the sheeple in the churches will do anything they are told.

    As far as I'm concerned, Alabama should just go away. Too bad I have to go through it to get to Florida.

    The more we are, the less we need.

    by Fiddlegirl on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:59:32 AM PDT

    •  Florida is no better. n/t (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pipercity1, nancyjones, jennylind

      ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

      by Kristina40 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:09:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I live in Alabama (7+ / 0-)

      And I'm far from being a bigot. Growing up in E. Tennessee my parents, Republican at the time, never uttered any racial epithets and actually taught us to be respectful to everyone. So please don't paint us all with the same brush.

      In fact, i do think things were better in the late 60's/early70's than they are now. I live in a congressional district that was Democratic until Parker Griffith decided to jump ship nine months into his only term. Now we have a tea party supported Mo Brooks who the local Dem party leaders seem to have a hard time getting anyone to run against--any viable candidate anyway.

      It really makes me sad though. I live in a rather progressive Huntsville but the rest of the district is mostly small rural towns. With bigger problems than what's going on in Washington.

  •  I'm sure they're out there, but... (14+ / 0-)

    ... I've lived in Mississippi my whole life and so far I don't think I've ever run into a racist who wasn't a church-goer.   That's not to say every church-goer is a racist, by any means, but it does seem to be something that's learned in church.  And a lot of non-racist believers are giving up on church these days because of it.

    One of my best friends is (or was) Southern Baptist.  His dad's a big-wig at the church, a deacon or whatever - I don't keep up with Baptist heirarchical shit, but he's high up.  Anyway, my friend used to get in trouble here because he wouldn't go along with his church when they would do bigoted things.  Like, once the comic strip, For Better Or Worse, ran a storyline that had to do with a main character's friend coming out as gay.  The local Baptists pitched a shit-fit about it and wanted everybody in the church to sign a petition.  My friend (I think he was still a teenager at the time) refused, and got all kinds of flack from everybody in the church.  He didn't care; he wanted to see how the story turned out and didn't see any way it would harm anybody.  And, of course, it didn't.  It wasn't even a very controversial story, really -- it just basically said "hey, gay people exist, can you be friends with them?  Yes." -- but it got so bad the newspaper put ballots in it where you could vote whether or not they'd run the rest of the strip.  Since the local Baptist churches went out and stole all the newspapers from vending machines all over town so they could do all the voting, the newspaper said "Fuck you, we're running the strip."  And they did, the whole storyline in one day, on the editorial page.

    Also, my friend got in trouble again when a black family showed up at his church, and, after the services, the preacher quietly took them aside and told them (as politely as anyone could do such a hideous thing) that their presence made some people "uncomfortable" so they might prefer going to church somewhere else.  After that, I'm sure they would.  My friend was pissed off at that and raised a little hell about it, and that made the other churchgoers uncomfortable, too.

    Anyway, he eventually moved to L.A.   He wants to move back here really bad but hasn't found a job that'd pay as much as he makes there yet... but he said whenever he moves back, he won't be going to church -- getting away from that was one thing that made him move to L.A. in the first place.   And his church is one of the milder ones around here.

    "Glenn Beck ends up looking like a fat, stupid child. His face should be wearing a chef's hat on the side of a box of eclairs. " - Doug Stanhope

    by Front Toward Enemy on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:21:33 AM PDT

  •  What's Missing Is A Romney Like Video Of A Service (5+ / 0-)

    Where's the I-Phone video (or better yet the videos) of a service where this type of sick hatred is being spewed. That's the type of exposure the Religious Right of the GOP can't run and hide from.

    Once you leave the womb, conservatives don’t care about you until you reach military age. Then you’re just what they’re looking for. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. -GC

    by cobaltbay on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:25:37 AM PDT

    •  Turn on a TV on Sunday morning (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kristina40, DSPS owl

      there are plenty of services that are broadcast on cable.  Some have webcasts/podcasts too.  And bigger churches will video their services so they can get them to their members who are in hospitals, nursing homes, and whatever.

      It's not like they try to keep this stuff a secret -- for the most part.

      I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

      by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:11:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That only works if the real bigotry (0+ / 0-)

        is displayed from the pulpit on Sunday morning.

        Sunday School and the Sunday night and Wednesday night services are rarely recorded.

        •  Maybe it's a nit, but (0+ / 0-)

          the focus of the show was preaching politics form the pulpit.  And in the most flagrant cases, yes, they would record it -- and proudly.  There was a case here in NC last year of a preacher suggesting that male children who displayed "gay tendencies" be physically "corrected".  (The actual quote was something like "If you see that wrist go limp, you crack that wrist!") Female children got slightly gentler treatment, but only physically.  "You wanna play sports, that's fine.  But when you go out in public, you're gonna be pretty."  What brought this all about was the referendum on Amendment One, the so called "marriage amendment" to the state constitution that was coming up for a vote in May.  Not only did this Neanderthal spew this bile from his pulpit on a Sunday morning (and record it), it made the news on the local CBS affiliate -- along with follow up interviews form some of the congregants (who were significantly less eloquent in their support of the "pastor").

          That's just one example that got the attention of the media because that referendum was a major hot-button issue at the time.  But as I said, it's not like they make an effort to disguise the politicking that happens on Sunday morning.  They don't feel like they NEED to hide it, especially not when they're in the Holy Echo Chamber.

          I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

          by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:23:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, there are some (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        really awful preachers on the tv on Sunday morning. Lots and lots of bigotry against Muslims and gay people. They truly don't try to hide it.

        ~War is Peace~Freedom is Slavery~Ignorance is Strength~ George Orwell "1984"

        by Kristina40 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:46:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Two Words: (0+ / 0-)

        John Hagee

  •  for sure (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DSPS owl

    Whether a specific white church preaches racial hatred is hard to know, but how many white preachers go public calling for equality?  It would be easy to say He created all people equally and to discriminate is to go against His plan.  Put another way, if you're a racist, you're going to Hell.  Back in the 1960s, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."  With that logic, most Southern white preachers are going to Hell.

    Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite. John Kenneth Galbraith .

    by melvynny on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:34:50 AM PDT

    •  No. It's not really hard to know. (5+ / 0-)

      If you go to these churches, you can hear if for yourself.

      But I would just take that lady's word for it and not put yourself through that ugliness.

      You could also tune into Pat Robertson's TV show on any given day and hear him saying something awful about some group of people.

      I noticed a real change in Alabama in recent years just as the woman who is a teacher said.  That state is more segregated now than it was when I was a child.

    •  Understand, though... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites

      ...that, by and large, neither white pastors preaching equality nor mostly-white churches practicing equality are likely to make the evening news or morning newspaper.

      For instance, some years ago, our local Catholic bishop (not a rank-and-file priest, but the bishop of the diocese) decided that he would christen the adopted children of a gay couple.  Some would call that an extraordinary decision on his part, but it didn't even register as a blip in the local media...until Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church announced their intention to come to town and stage a protest.

      If it isn't controversial, you probably don't hear about it.  That isn't the fault of those churches or their pastors.  If they're actually following what Christ taught, they aren't bragging or running PR campaigns about their actions; they're just doing them.

      The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

      by wesmorgan1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:01:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live in Kentucky and I can assure you... (16+ / 0-)

    it is the same way here.

    I quit going to my all white church about a year and a half ago because of their focus on homosexuality as the ultimate sin.  The church is dividing and collapsing because of it.

    I quit going to church all together but my daughter, when she is home from college, now attends an all black church with her friend.  She initially walked in not knowing a single soul.  She says the difference is incredible.

    "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

    by Buckeye Nut Schell on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:38:47 AM PDT

  •  What happened to that effort to take (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DSPS owl

    tax-exempt status away from churches that were policital?

    ... like tears in rain

    by bladerunner on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:02:43 AM PDT

    •  THat wasn't actually about churches (0+ / 0-)

      but about 501(c)(4) organizations.  The initial diary was inaccurate.  Taking away exemptions for churches has a lot of unintended consequences, a lot of them bad.

      I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

      by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:13:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Like what? (0+ / 0-)

        The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

        by DSPS owl on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:30:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Churches work both sides of the aisle (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DSPS owl, Cassandra Waites

          Example: Churches were the backbone of the Civil Rights movement, and they couldn't have done it without straying into politics.  The inevitable loss of donations that would result would have bankrupted some of them, and without them who knows where the movement would be today?

          I'm not a church goer or supporter, but I give them the credit they're due.  Some of them -- maybe a lot of them -- are operated by charlatans and frauds fleecing the flock for personal gain and/or glory.  But an awful lot of them don't.  Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is usually unwise.

          I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

          by mojo11 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 01:18:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for answering. But (0+ / 0-)

            I'm against State Churches, State religions, & State Mosques on whichever continent.  Members assume rights for themselves; non-members suffer discrimination.  IMHO & in my experience.

            The Republicans are defunding, not defending, America.

            by DSPS owl on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 05:27:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Like local governments... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites

          ...jacking up property assessments and tax rates to nail churches they don't like, or to inhibit the formation of new churches.

          This is already being done (and challenged) where zoning laws are concerned.  Here's one example, from June of this year.  The local government apparently requires new churches to have at least 3 acres of land, while nonreligious groups are not subject to such a minimum requirement.

          (For those of you who might not be able to visualize an area of 3 acres - picture an American football field.  The area from one goal line to the opposite 9-yard line and sideline-to-sideline is one acre.)

          The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

          by wesmorgan1 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 06:57:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's only one church in my area (0+ / 0-)

            that can afford to own that kind of land.

            They purchased it very slowly in sections off of widow's wills. And that total includes the church school's land.

            No church here can afford to own that kind of land without abuse of the congregation. Period.

            And only one church I've ever attended anywhere ever owned that much. The cost of upkeep, utilities, and incidentals like keeping the lightbulbs changed out for all of that was slowly killing the budget. It just wasn't sustainable.

  •  You know, I live in the statistically least (11+ / 0-)

    religious state in the Union, Maine. I also work for the Episcopal Church (one of our martyrs, Jonathan Myrick Daniels, died taking a bullet meant for a black girl during an altercation that took place during the Freedom Rides).

    The idea that hate should be preached from the pulpit is anathema to me. But I've also lived in Texas, and here's a story :

    I was working for the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), a relatively liberal and integrated evangelical denomination with Presbyterian and Baptist theological influences, and sat down with my boss, the minister, to talk about hymns to highlight his six-week preaching series on the exodus. I suggested "We shall overcome". He nixed it immediately saying: "I know it's in our hymnal, but our congregation will not sing it. Many of our largest donors are still sore about the Civil Rights movement because they lost their maids.

    This was in the 1990's.

    I resent that. I demand snark, and overly so -- Markos Moulitsas.

    by commonmass on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:13:19 AM PDT

  •  Thank Reagan for turning it around (5+ / 0-)

    As Rosalynn Carter said to Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes after Carter lost to Reagan

    ROSALYNN CARTER: I think this President makes us comfortable with our prejudices.

    WALLACE: That’s not very nice, what you are saying.

    CATER: But it’s the way I feel and I think it’s true.


    Reagan carefully and persistently sent the message to southerners that racism was ok.   The Southern Strategy relied on it.  Mix in several prolonged recessions and a black POTUS and you have a real stew for racial hate.

    "The international world is wondering what happened to America's great heart and soul." Helen Thomas

    by Betty Pinson on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:38:47 AM PDT

    •  The South should have been starved (5+ / 0-)

      after the Civil War. Then re-settled. I truly believe that.

      I resent that. I demand snark, and overly so -- Markos Moulitsas.

      by commonmass on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:42:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  one reason they don't respect us; we were too nice (6+ / 0-)

        We bent over backwards to accommodate the "planters" before the war, determined to show that we could all live and work together in the spirit of brotherhood.  Like barbarians in any time and place, they took it as weakness and demanded more and more and more, confident that if talks broke down, they could beat those lily-livered codfish in a war with one hand tied behind their backs.

        In any other war in history, the leaders and perpetrators of a failed rebellion would have been killed or sold into slavery themselves.  Sherman was a piker compared to how the Mongols treated those who defied them.  Imagine mass executions of Southern military and civilian leadership: Davis, Lee, Jackson, Forrest, all the others ... but instead like the weaksauce Yankees we are, we respected them - indeed we praised their martial spirit and devotion to their home and cause (even if we threw in that we hated the cause) - and let them surrender with honor, retire in dignity, start the Klan, and hold the country hostage in Washington.  Yes, we invited the defeated rebel tribe to take a seat of power in our own capital!

        Imagine the plantation owners being forcibly dispossessed: stripped of their land and turned out onto the streets with their families to beg or enslaved themselves.  Imagine all the Southern Baptist churches getting forcibly reintegrated with the American Baptist hierarchy, complete with dour Yankee preachers shipped down to take over.

        I think the South still doesn't respect us.  We keep giving them money hand over fist; we keep letting them throw their baby fits whenever the big fast world gets too close.  Like the Japanese who were never "denazified" after WWII, they have not changed as a people.  It's more than that they're still racist; they're still adversarial, still committed to the idea that the strong should dominate the weak, and still perceive anything other than domination as proof of weakness.  They still strut, still live in their narcissistic fantasy world where they are the innocent and honorable heroes beset upon by the spiteful forces of evil at all sides, and still expect to be deferred to because "By God, we're man enough to demand it!"

      •  We tried that later on in Germany after WW I (0+ / 0-)

        That's what got us WW II and the Holocaust.

        BTW, wishing death on people, even retroactively, is HRable.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 03:02:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  i just moved to the south one year ago (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kristina40, Matt Z, DownstateDemocrat

    this woman nailed it, truer words were never spoken !

    no such thing as southern hospitality in my little corner of the

    In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.'' George Orwell

    by lostinamerica on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 07:49:23 AM PDT

  •  Good for Ed Schultz! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DownstateDemocrat, DSPS owl

    Of the msnbc pundits, he's the one who is in the best position to do what he did.

    by chloris creator on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:29:17 AM PDT

  •  I never go to church unless it is to attend a (0+ / 0-)

    a funeral, but I get the feeling that congregation at some of these churches is like the crowd at the Republican National Convention ------ just about 100% white.  Minorities do not go to these churches because the are not make welcome by their fellow congregants.  Just like the modern Republican Party.  You know how Rick Santorum feels about blah people.

    And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

    by MrJersey on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:48:46 AM PDT

  •  Don't Whites Have CellPhone Cameras To Take (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, RichM, DSPS owl

    into these churches.

    Expose the hate using Youtube.

    "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

    by kerplunk on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:17:10 AM PDT

  •  Just Did A Youtube Search Using The String (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Cassandra Waites, RichM

    "racism preached at church", the vast majority of the results are showing how blacks are preaching racism toward whites, ala Jeremiah Wright, Al Sharpton, and other "Obama's preachers".  

    The right wing have taken over youtube.

    "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

    by kerplunk on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:28:21 AM PDT

  •  I imagine any resident of the "South" would agree (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, Cassandra Waites

    with the points Schultz made.  While it's rarely acknowledged by the media, it's pretty obvious for anyone open to the truth.

    "Because I am a river to my people."

    by lordcopper on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 09:29:24 AM PDT

  •  Somebody... (0+ / 0-)

    Needs to start recording these sermons at multiple churches and posting them on YouTube.  Fox ran reverend Wright on a continuous loop throughout the spring of 2008.  

    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck

    by RichM on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 10:09:41 AM PDT

  •  Where is the Spanish Inquisition when you need it? (0+ / 0-)

    A long time ago someone pointed out that christian churches which promote racism, hatred, policies that hurt the poor, etc. are promoting gross forms of heresy against the teachings of the founder of their religion. Churches once knew how to deal with such things - they would brand the miscreants as heretics and launch campaigns to expose and eradicate them.  Granted, in the old days their methods were often extreme, but they mainly relied on reason, logic, and persuasive preaching; the rack and the stake reserved mostly for recalcitrant leaders. And when torture fell out of favor they still had the first three to fall back on.

    So where are the mainstream churches today? Why aren't they railing in their pulpits and blasting forth from their radio and TV stations with condemnation of these heretics?  What about the black churches?

    Recovering Republican "Order is nothing more than very slow chaos."

    by anonymoose on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:37:39 PM PDT

    •  PS: (0+ / 0-)

      When are the woman described in the article and others like her going to wake up and realize that the republican party no longer reflects their ideals.... and then have the sense to leave the republican party.

      Recovering Republican "Order is nothing more than very slow chaos."

      by anonymoose on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 12:45:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thus sayeth the lord (0+ / 0-)

    Attend my church and give me money and you will get into heaven.

    Wait!!! God did not say that, preachers imply it.

    Sarcasm on...It is so nice I live in a post racial America...Sarcasm off.

    by wbishop3 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 02:07:51 PM PDT

  •  That's why I don't like churches (0+ / 0-)

    Because you are just supposed to sit there and let them tell you what you should do and think. You can't speak up and say that's wrong, or I disagree, or anything.

    Women create the entire labor force.
    Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 12:38:09 AM PDT

  •  I am also Southern Baptist due to (0+ / 0-)

    my now-deceased grandma and her family.

    With that being said, I have become a lot more liberal/progressive in the last few years, especially after graduating high school in 2009.

    Recently, I have been working to get marriage equality passed in Illinois with Illinois Unites for Marriage.

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