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Somebody got a comment hidden for mentioning in the comment
that others around him use redacted .

He got more that a few Hide Rates and a bunch of comments re redacted

So I had a little look see at the comment search ,
I search the past years worth of comments for redacted
I was amazed at the number of times redacted has been posted .

359 results were found
I was also amazed at how few times redacted got hidden , 9 .
9 out of 359 ?

http://www.dailykos.com/...

I Often Feel "Small" (3+ / 0-)

I was reading about MLK and found many white folks (that would be me) from my area got on a bus or two and went south. To protest. Made me feel good.

My grandparents used to say redacted this or redacted that. I was raised in a household where that wasn't allowed. I can assure you where I lived at the time it would have been easier for my parents to raise me in a different way. They didn't.

I feel small cause I have done so little to change things.

by webranding on Wed Aug 28, 2013 at 08:33:58 AM PDT

 I Live Not That Far From There (12+ / 0-)

People hate when I say this but a cross burning on a front lawn isn't as rare as you might think. I can take you to a few places in my town where you can call somebody a redacted and nobody will even question it. I did question it a time or two and that didn't go over so well ....

by webranding on Tue Jul 09, 2013 at 07:36:52 PM PDT

She Did Frame It Didn't She (6+ / 0-)

now I will just say I kind of feel for her. You know I tell my parents it ain't kind of hip to call an African American a nergo. Heck years ago I hate to admit calling somebody a redacted was acceptable in my household.

I don't thing people get that term. How it was used.

by webranding on Fri Jun 28, 2013 at 06:51:49 PM PDT

I Recall Mike (13+ / 0-)

He was a golf buddy. My mom was the mom that always was at my sporting events. She'd drive Mike with me. I recall this one event.  This was actually said:

    We don't let redacted play here.

Mike was not white.

I recall my mother saying get in the car. We are leaving. Get in the fucking car.

by webranding on Fri Apr 26, 2013 at 01:43:46 PM PDT

My Brother Married In A Family (0+ / 0-)

and they called a person a redacted Let's let that hand there .......

by webranding on Thu Apr 25, 2013 at 10:53:31 AM PDT

I Recall Moving From The North (56+ / 0-)

into the deep south for school in the early 90s. LSU. Baton Rouge. I don't mean to paint all those that live there this way, but the first day there this was said to me, "we don't redacted let  do things like you Yankees do."

I had been there for a day. One class and this was told to me.

by webranding on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:00:20 PM PDT

I Was Born In Baton Rouge In 1969 (10+ / 0-)

My father finishing his PhD there. In the early 90s I went back myself to college to work on my PhD. Now I was raised in the midwest most of that time. Military brat. Honestly I can't recall any racism. I am sure it might have been there, but not in your face.

I recall the first day of class, not long after the riots in Los Angeles at LSU. A dude in the class asked me if I wanted, cause I guess it was clear I was a Yankee (oh calling me that is a whole other related story), to get a tour of town.

At one point we started to talk about the riots. He reached down under this seat, while driving, and pulled out a gun. Then said:

    That would never happened here. I'd do stop those redacted.

Now I use that word here cause I think people need to hear it. I was totally confused.

I don't think the deep south is less racist then where I live in the midwest, but they are at least open about it.

by webranding on Sun Jan 20, 2013 at 03:24:02 PM PST

That Is Why I Don't Spend Much Time (8+ / 0-)

on Facebook. I have a family member there, an openly gay women. Been with her partner for 32 years. She calls Obama a redacted. I can't compute. I hate to head here and see what is said about this.

by webranding on Wed Dec 05, 2012 at 08:12:55 PM PST

I Could Talk For Hours And Hours (25+ / 0-)

about how my parents have changed. It didn't happen over night. It took years and even decades. But change did happen. 20 or so years ago my dad would call a person of colar a redacted or redacted Much more recent somebody a "fag."

Myself and my brother told my dad this wasn't acceptable. Not close to "cool." Then maybe we introduced them to a family member that was kind of openly gay, lif they just paid attention.

That gay couple are my parents best friends right now.

My parents, oh and I have stories, are about as pro gay rights as anybody I know. It just took some effort on my end to help them, push them, and all is good now in my household.

by webranding on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:30:15 AM PST

My Parents Are Life Long Republicans (41+ / 0-)

and somehow under your watch they voted for their first time in their entire lives for a redacted Democract. You might ponder that for a little and give them a call and ask why.

See maybe like 30 years ago my dad might have called a person of collar a  Or a person a fag.  But funny thing, they would find what they used to do offensive now.

They have come full circle.

by webranding on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:00:12 AM PST

I Think I Understand. I Am A White Dude (2+ / 0-)

there were times in my life where I was called a "redacted lover." I am somewhat sorry to use that word and not *^ it out. But it was what was said to me.

I am 43. I am not 83.

I often joke that if you are a white man and you don't hear racist stuff then you don't walk around much in this country. It is all around me even to this day.

Right in front of your face.

I was at a bar tonight and we were talking about the NBA season starting and I kid you not somebody said to me:

    I don't have a need to see monkeys playing a game.

I said something like, "what the fuck did you just say" and the entire bar just looked at me

by webranding on Tue Oct 30, 2012 at 10:17:53 PM PDT

I Recall A Time (1+ / 0-)

We were at a course at the university if Illinois. I was asked, "you will let that redacted play with you?"

My mom came on the course and grabbed my clubs. We got in the car and left.

by webranding on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 07:20:43 PM PDT

This Is Not What I Think (0+ / 0-)

not even close. But he just a redacted. If he wasn't born outside of the US he is just a redacted. I hate to use those words but it is just a fact. Try this or that and you can't change that.

by webranding on Wed Sep 05, 2012 at 12:54:56 PM PDT

...............................................
Fine. How about renaming the team... (4+ / 0-)

...the "Washington redacted" and see how far that gets you.

Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

by Meteor Blades on Tue Jun 18, 2013 at 07:24:00 PM PDT

 That ship is long sailed for Denny's. (71+ / 0-)

NYT, 5-24-1994:

    Denny's, a national restaurant chain, agreed today to pay more than $54 million to settle lawsuits filed by thousands of black customers who had been refused service or had been forced to wait longer or pay more than white customers.

    The new head of the civil rights division of the Justice Department, Deval L. Patrick, said it was the largest and broadest settlement under the Federal public-accommodation laws. Those laws were adopted more than 30 years ago to end segregation in restaurants and other places that serve the public.

    The agreement, worked out among Government lawyers and lawyers representing Denny's and its customers, ended Federal class-action lawsuits in Baltimore and in San Jose, Calif., and a complaint in Virginia. Those actions were filed on behalf of thousands of black customers who had asserted that Denny's violated their civil rights by treating them rudely and by routinely giving preferential treatment to whites.

    In one instance, a black Federal judge from Houston and his wife who had been traveling for 18 hours said they were forced to wait at a Denny's in Yreka, Calif., for almost an hour as white teen-agers taunted them and referred to them as redacted

    In another case, six black Secret Service agents assigned to President Clinton's detail were refused a table at a Denny's in Annapolis. Md., while their white Secret Service colleagues were seated and served....

Help PA Dems Educate Voters on ID Laws

by Adam B on Thu Nov 15, 2012 at 07:20:05 AM PST

these fools still use "states' rights." (52+ / 0-)

and I still hear "redactedredacted" every time.

This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

by mallyroyal on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:10:38 AM PST

The kind of war-whooping, tomahawk-chopping... (80+ / 0-)

...behavior displayed by Brown's campaign staff emerge, sad to say, as a result of the attitudes that remain widespread in America when it comes to Indians. It continues to be okay, for example, to have a national football team named the "Redskins," as offensive to many Indians as would be a team called the Washington "redacted" or the Cleveland "Spics" to blacks and Latinos.

Stereotypes, including new ones about "casino revenge," plague us across the tribes. National discourse is filled with little smears like "off the reservation" and the use in the military of "Indian country" to describe hostile territory in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Recently, a public official labeled Indians at a hearing "hostile."

As navajo and I have pointed out in our First Nation News & Views series, the insults and the subtle and not-so-subtle attacks on Indians are not a thing of the past. They happen every day. That doesn't give the Brown campaign any excuse.

Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

by Meteor Blades on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 09:36:44 AM PDT

So whats the deal ?
Why is it that redacted is recommendable over and over and over ?
Until it a bad thing ?
 My Brother Is Nine Years Younger Then Me (0+ / 15-)

in the mid 90s he liked hip hop music. My parents thought that was redacted music. I hate to use that word, but alas it was what was used. I think folks need to hear/read it. We told my parents that wasn't acceptable. They changed.

But if you lived by me, I could take you to a bar and you could yell redacted and nobody would care. It is a sad, sad thing. But truth!

by webranding on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 03:03:22 PM PDT

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Comment Preferences

  •  Redacted . (12+ / 0-)

    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

    by indycam on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:10:12 PM PDT

  •  After a certain (9+ / 0-)

    number of uses, it just seems gratuitous.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:28:05 PM PDT

  •  I have deeply conflicted feelings (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    edrie, Kevskos, serendipityisabitch

    about hiding "language"

    Clearly any pejorative use of certain words should be hidden on sight, but we shouldn't be making pejorative comments, whatever the language.

    Yet, and on the other hand, certain words have become almost forbidden on Daily Kos. I cannot argue that they are not offensive, if people tell me they are offended, I don't have that right.

    I took the comment tonight to be merely a comment, with no ill-intent and responded accordingly, yet others saw it differently, and I do respect that.

    This is a very hard line to walk because we would be the first to condemn attempts to redact or censor "Huckleberry Finn", and it uses the N-word over 100 times.

    I see a qualitative difference between the use of a word in different contexts, and the abuse of many words. Others see it differently and I'm okay with that.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:35:45 PM PDT

    •  hiding language hides the truth of the past. (5+ / 0-)

      i read the comment referring to redacted music.  it was a common phrase by older people because rock and roll came out of blues - it WAS music of blacks - only they weren't called that then.

      to try to change history by redacting the words of the past actually dilute history - and that is a very bad thing.

      we cannot milkquetoast the past and wish it away - only by facing it and the reality of what was can we ever move past it and move forward into a better world.

      i think the hr's were wrong - on the purist scale of wrong and are deleterious to us as a nation.

      context.  that is what matters.  historical context is not a slur - it is bringing the past into the present to illuminate the abuse based on ignorance and fear.

      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

      by edrie on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:46:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yet it does appear that (5+ / 0-)

        the particular User is rather more inclined to use that word than are most.

        This is not easy because there may be something you are trying to convey, and the use of certain words would help.

        Not much use though, if in using the words you alienate those you are trying to talk to.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:52:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not concerned with how many times , (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          twigg, serendipityisabitch

          I'm interested in the reaction , the same words used before , that got lots of recs before , today is never to be said and must be hide rated .
          I see a massive flip flop .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:05:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Welcome to Daily Kos :) (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            serendipityisabitch, 88kathy
            I see a massive flip flop .
            See my sig.

            You make a good point, but it's never going to be easy to discuss it because any conversation along those lines tends to have the wood hidden, by the trees.

            I don't know what the answer is.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:11:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I say it's about time and welcome the so-called (6+ / 0-)

            Flip flop. I think language is important and value openness but there are just some things that shouldn't be said or encouraged (here through uprates). My grandfather was a racist and a bigot. You'll have to trust me on this because I wouldn't dream of repeating all the awful things he said just to make a point.

            "I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards any one." (Edith Cavell)

            by Southcoast Luna on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:29:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I hope what you are seeing is a rejection (20+ / 0-)

            of a tactic, used repeatedly by one person to provoke an emotional response.

            Used by someone with expertise in marketing, it's just plain manipulative and as you show, it's used in a formulaic manner.

            1. "I hate to use the word redacted"
               - establishes rapport and asserts common values
            2. "People around me used the word redacted"
               - looks like an honest comment about ugly history
            3. "I think the word redacted should not be censored"
               - an extremely vague assertion about language

            If the poster wants to write clearly, they have ample skills to do so.

            It wasn't inadvertent. The provocation was intentional.

            What you've shown in this diary is a pattern of intentional provocation. There is a distinct and persistent difference between some posters who might rarely use the redacted word once in a long historical context, and between the featured poster who persistently uses the word, and makes conflicting claims about hating to use the word.

            Props for 2 things: 1) You made me stop and think. 2) You attempted to quantify something that bothered you. BUT 3) I am irritated that I let you waste my time.

            What might really be interesting is to expand your search to all the wildcard spellings and document how vanishingly small the use of redacted has become over recent months/years, e.g. compared to 2007 or even compared to 2011.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:31:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What I find odd is that the poster has yet to (12+ / 0-)

              explain themselves or apologize for using offensive language. Initially I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but seeing that this is a habit makes me question whether he deserves that benefit.

              I also question my decision, as well as that of others, not to HR in order not to pile on as comment was already hidden. I do not know if higher numbers of donuts have any real effect (by this I mean 30 HRs rather than the 15 already there) on either the commenter's attitude or the consequences for purposely using offensive language.

              “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

              by DefendOurConstitution on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 04:36:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I wasted your time ? (0+ / 0-)

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:19:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  "intentional provocation" ? (0+ / 0-)
              The provocation was intentional.
              What you've shown in this diary is a pattern of intentional provocation.
              The many recommends attached to the , what you call "intentional provocation" leads me to believe otherwise .
              If it was "intentional provocation" , whats with all the recommends ? Why are well respected users , known to be more than up on the subject , not only not provoked but recommending the comments ?

               

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:26:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  My intrest wasn't (0+ / 0-)
              What might really be interesting is to expand your search to all the wildcard spellings and document how vanishingly small the use of redacted has become over recent months/years, e.g. compared to 2007 or even compared to 2011.
              My interest was in the community moderation reaction to the use of the word .

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 07:50:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I think it's about time there was a flip flop (5+ / 0-)

            Had I seen it in your examples before I would have hide rated it,

            It's an unacceptable word, I was brought up to never use words like that by my father not just about blacks, or AA's but any race or religion that had that kind of racist terminology included. My father taught us to respect others regardless of race, religion or gender,

            He was great in a very old-fashioned way.

            It's sickens me to see the casual use of a word that contains so much pain for the people it's directed at.

            It's not freedom of language when the end result is to hurt people in ways we can't even imagine.

            If you must reference that experience with racist relatives than use the "N" word, people will understand you,

            imo webbranding was righteously hiderated and now that I see this, he was playing with fire all along.

            We just had the 50th commemoration of the MOW and this is the best we can manage at dkos! Disgraceful!

            Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

            by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 07:45:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I don't really buy this argument (12+ / 0-)

        It troubles me every time I see it.

        Partly, I think, because I spend so much time trying to come up with other instances where there is this weird fealty to "the past." Especially with words. Even more especially with brutal, powerful and (for some) seductive, tempting, transgressive words.  

        But this insistence that this or that particular word must be said, must be allowed, just as it was back then! with no euphemisms or watering down, or all faithfulness with the past, with history, is broken--

        To what other words do you (or others) apply this standard?

        True radicalism is finding reasons for hope, not grounds for despair. - Ray Williams

        by Nanette K on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:01:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  as a writer, the use of words FOR an emotional (0+ / 0-)

          response is the manner in which we learn, communicate, grow.

          words are used to encourage us or horrify us - WORDS are the tool here, the depth of meaning based on historical usage - the purpose for which they are used, i.e., context, is what matters.

          ignoring how words were used in the past denies that past existed...especially when those words were used to harm.

          i find much more disturbing the new adaptation by kids in rap than explaning how the word was used generations ago.
          generations ago, many people had no idea the power the words held in demeaning a whole group of people.  the "word" was a familiar one they grew up hearing without really LISTENING to what was being said or what it mean to the ones targeted.

          looking at the world of where that "word" was commonplace and the evolution of race relations and the awareness of the damage that "word" did is important in learning the effects of discrimination.

          discrimination still occurrs - and the use of that "word" and other "words" today directed at other groups of "others" will never end until we recognize the power of any word to delegitimize the target.

          history is important.  the phrase "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" applies to the destructive use of language as well as any other lesson.

          THAT is why i specifically have what you so obliquely refer to as a "weird fealty to the past"

          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

          by edrie on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:53:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe, finally, people are getting sensitized (13+ / 0-)

    Enough to object to a word that has a suitable substitute. For Pete's sake, if you are driven to refer to, repeat, or use to make a point what most people understand is extremely offensive language, it is a small grace to use a euphemism. And if one uses what is almost universally recognized to be offensive language and is called out on it, the very least one could do is apologize.

    "I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards any one." (Edith Cavell)

    by Southcoast Luna on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:16:07 PM PDT

    •  I don't think you are getting it . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      serendipityisabitch

      Did you see the list of all the people who in the last year have used that word ?

      359 results were found
      Do you see all the recommends on the comments ?

      "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

      by indycam on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:24:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I get it quite well. I have pretty good reading (10+ / 0-)

        Comprehension.  Maybe some of those people will from now on be unwilling to use the word or uprate a comment that includes it. Maybe it will take more people willing to call others out for continuing the usage and/or uprates before it stops. Won't be soon enough.

        "I realize that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards any one." (Edith Cavell)

        by Southcoast Luna on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:37:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wasn't questioning your reading . (0+ / 0-)

          The question was

          So whats the deal ?
          Why is it that redacted is recommendable over and over and over ?
          Until it a bad thing ?
          The change from getting lots of recs to getting lots of hide rates .
          Maybe, finally, people are getting sensitized
          Doesn't explain it , its to wild a swing to be covered by changing sensitivity . And the fact that comments from different people using that very same word get very different reactions says to me its not changing sensitivity .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:35:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Now I wish there was an easy way to see if I (8+ / 0-)

        recommended any of those 359 comments.

        They way I look at it, it is just as easy not to say it.

        I wonder if the concept it represents will ever leave our collective mind.

        give the NRA the Royal Flush join Stop The NRA

        by 88kathy on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:28:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That concept and where it comes from remains (10+ / 0-)

          too deeply ingrained in much of American society, as is so evident from the many instances of overt racism we have seen since Barack Obama became President.

          One example being that we have white tea partiers parading on highway overpasses with loaded assault weapons and pistols while calling for impeachment ---- and some people (even on this site) exclaiming that somehow such behavior is okay, because those individuals are just exercising their "rights."

          I do not buy it.

          •  The word is banned but not the concept. So I guess (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WakeUpNeo

            we are in a social experiment. Can you have a concept without the word? It's worth a try as far as I am concerned. We need to get past this. Soon. 50 years ago. Now.

            give the NRA the Royal Flush join Stop The NRA

            by 88kathy on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:35:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We agree, 88kathy --- did not mean to imply at all (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              vcmvo2, Yasuragi

              that the situation, be it the "word" or the 'concept" is beyond hope or anything, but rather the roots of racism lie very deep in our society.

              As John Lewis commented in an interview this week (on CharlieRose, IIRC), we have indeed come far in the last fifty years. He mentioned that we no longer encounter separate washrooms and drinking fountains, so common for too long, for instance.

              But as Lewis also acknowledged, we still have a very long way to go; and how we use language on our journey remains important, as always.

            •  What word is banned ? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              88kathy

              You can't be saying redacted is banned , because it clearly isn't . It was used by Meteor Blades in this very diary , unredacted and no one objected as far as I can tell by the ratings of his comment or the responses .

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:38:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Context matters. (11+ / 0-)

        I think I've used that word here once in my 9 years (and I simply don't use it in real life ever). I may have abbreviated it. But that tends to bug me. If you're going to use the word, own up to it. You need to be using it for a specific reason and it better be valid enough to stand on its own.

        As someone who has studied language, linguistics, and rhetoric, I believe that language is powerful. I believe that words have meaning. I believe that using terms like "illegals," for example, is dehumanizing.

        And that would have been the context in which I used that redacted word because I do believe that thoughtful adults CAN use a word that is offensive and hurtful to discuss it, to discuss its power, to discuss how it's still used as a weapon against people, to discuss how minority groups are trying to reclaim the power of the word for themselves.

        So if you simply run a search and count them up, well, that tells me nothing because we often talk about language around here.   I see nothing wrong, for example with how MB used it. It's shocking, yes. And it's a brilliant metaphor for how Native Americans feel when they turn on their TVs every Sunday afternoon.

        As for Web. I don't know. He's a bright and educated guy.  He should know the power of that word. My guess is that he does, and that he has relied on that very power of that very word to prove to us (and perhaps himself) that he is different than his grandparents.

        And it seems the community bought it  -- for a while.

        The sad irony is when we see the comments stacked up against each other, he doesn't seem so different from his grandparents.

        That's the problem with carelessly using tools that possess power we don't quite understand. That word is a holdover of times when men owned other men, when men killed other men, when men raped women, when families were split apart often forever.

        It carries a power that I think those who use it casually can't possibly understand. Any word that makes people physically recoil is a word that we need to be careful with.

        I simply don't believe the "it's just a word" stuff that sometimes gets tossed around here. As I've told people who have objected when I asked them to tone down their offensive language, if language doesn't matter much, what are we all doing here, anyhow? Language matters. Words matter. They're how we communicate.

        I don't know Web well at all. I won't assume much less impute motives beyond what I stated above.  I believe that learning opportunities find us when we're ready for them. I hope he is ready for this one.  I think it may be very valuable.

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:35:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh really ? (0+ / 0-)
          And respectfully, you're trying to hide this user's habitual gratuitous use of the word
          I posted all the comments he made using that word for the last year and you claim I'm trying to hide this user's habitual gratuitous use of the word ?

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:06:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Are you saying what it looks like you are saying ? (0+ / 0-)
          My guess is that he does, and that he has relied on that very power of that very word to prove to us (and perhaps himself) that he is different than his grandparents.

          And it seems the community bought it  -- for a while.

          Are you saying he is not different from his grandparents ?  

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:22:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is what I said: (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, tytalus, WakeUpNeo, Yasuragi

            (did you read my comment? I put a lot of thought into it, actually)

            The sad irony is when we see the comments stacked up against each other, he doesn't seem so different from his grandparents.
            and then I said this:
            I don't know Web well at all. I won't assume much less impute motives beyond what I stated above.  I believe that learning opportunities find us when we're ready for them. I hope he is ready for this one.  I think it may be very valuable.
            I look at evidence. People say a lot. But I look at evidence. Re-read MB's sig.  

            I don't know Web's grandparents at all, except what he has said about them. The only thing I know about him is what he has said about himself -- and his actions right here.

            Actions matter to me. They matter quite a lot.

            Actually, they matter to most people here. I've had people say to me, "ok grover, well, let's see what you DO when xyz situation arises..."  In other words, my words only carry me so far.

            So, as I said, and I thought I was pretty clear. I don't know Webranding. I won't leap to conclusions about him or his character. He seems nice enough. This is the internet. I'm not naive. But I do like to think the best of people when possible.

            He didn't respond when people were tossing pastry at the offending comment. That is a BIG part of the problem here. He hasn't dropped by yet here today, or I'm presuming, sent anyone significant in this matter (one of the donut tossers, MB, Shanikka, etc) a note.

            I have my own thoughts about this diary, although I think that the community being able to discuss our values on such things is always a good thing. If nothing else, I hope it's become clear to you where we stand on racist terms.  As Shanikka outlined clearly  in this comment  this user was not unfairly singled out among over 300 uses of the word, which is what I suspected, and pretty much what I said.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:56:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes , (0+ / 0-)
              (did you read my comment? I put a lot of thought into it, actually)
              that's why I asked you the question I did .
              My guess is that he does, and that he has relied on that very power of that very word to prove to us (and perhaps himself) that he is different than his grandparents.

              And it seems the community bought it  -- for a while.

              When I read this ,

              "to prove to us (and perhaps himself) that he is different than his grandparents."
              "And it seems the community bought it  -- for a while."

              It sure sounds like you are saying he is the same as his grandparents . And from his description of them , its hard to see them as anything but racists .

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:06:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I wrote the diary because its not clear . (0+ / 0-)
              I hope it's become clear to you where we stand on racist terms.
              When he has made the same sorts of comments in the past , containing the same word , he got lots of recommends , this time he gets lots of hides and lots of hard words towards him . My question was about community moderation , not racist terms .
              Can you see what I was and am still asking ?
              Can you compare his recommended comments to the hide rated comment and explain ?

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 07:19:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Well, Mostly Because I am Obsessive (32+ / 0-)

        I just went back and read all 359 of these comments you keep mentioning.

        And respectfully, you're trying to hide this user's habitual gratuitous use of the word (and his woefully inconsistent claims about his family's history with and relationship to the word "nigger"; so thanks for listing them all where all can clearly see them) behind the motivations of others (with just a handful of exceptions) that were engaged in the following legitimate discourse:

        (a) historical reporting of someone else's use of the word, within the context of news stories (almost always public figures);  

        (b)discussion of how folks' racist rhetoric and/or behavior effectively called Black people "niggers" even if the word was never used (i.e. comments about Lee Atwater's description of the Southern Strategy.)

        (c) rhetorical discussion of the power of the word and whether it is ever analogous to, or if it is distinct from, other hateful slurs;

        (d) discussions about the concept of "reclaiming" the word, when it is appropriately used, if ever, and who has the right (or lacks the right) to use it in what context; or

        (e) self-identified Black users, talking about their experiences with the word (or the experiences of their families), being used against them or their families.

        This particular user has used the word more than anyone else and in only 2 cases has been hide rated for it, including yesterday. That alone should tell you that the salient issue is not whether or not it is "fair" that the word's use was HRd only 9 out of 359 times, but whether as it relates to this Kossack's use of the word (and fishy stories about his history with it) there is something more than just innocent, intellectual discussion of the word in play.  

        •  agree completely! nt (15+ / 0-)

          Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

          by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 07:49:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks, shanikka. Nailed it, as usual. n/t (18+ / 0-)

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 07:58:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Except for some of the assumptions . (0+ / 0-)
            you're trying to hide this user's
            Hiding by putting on display for everyone to see is a trick I don't know .
            there is something more than just innocent, intellectual discussion of the word in play.
            My question was about the response to the use .
            So whats the deal ?
            Why is it that redacted is recommendable over and over and over ?
            Until it a bad thing ?
             I see all the recommended comment from him and then the hide rated one , something has changed , and I question that .

            Its not the way he used the word , that seems consistent .  

            He went from getting lots of recs
            to getting hide rates
            for what looks to me to be the same comments .

            It can't be that that word is now hide on sight , I've shown with your comment and another's comment that its clearly not hide rate on sight .

            "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

            by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:27:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What do you have to say about all the recs (0+ / 0-)

          of his other comments ?
          How can it be recommended over and over and over and then all of the sudden a terrible thing that he should be so treated ?

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:10:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My guess? (10+ / 0-)

            People giving him the benefit of the doubt. As I said a little further up:

            that he has relied on that  power of that very word to prove to us (and perhaps himself) that he is different than his grandparents.

            And it seems the community bought it  -- for a while.

            So, it seems to me that you're doing an incredibly fine job of criticizing this community for being generous to a user and extending benefit of the doubt.

            I guess we'll1 know better next time.
            __

            1 "we" in the general sense, I didn't look to see who uprated those comments. I really don't want to know.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:22:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What ? (0+ / 0-)
              So, it seems to me that you're doing an incredibly fine job of criticizing this community for being generous to a user and extending benefit of the doubt.
              Are you saying I'm criticizing the recommenders of his comments in the past that contained that word ?
              If that's what you are saying , I don't agree , I never looked to see who recommended his comments that contained that word in the past . I'll go have a look see now at who uprated his comments in the past .

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:11:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Its a very interesting set , imho . (0+ / 0-)
                I Often Feel "Small" (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    BOHICA, llbear, Crashing Vor

                 I Live Not That Far From There (12+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    tmservo433, psnyder, palantir, Tara the Antisocial Social Worker, Youffraita, FlyingToaster, annetteboardman, mookins, splashy, LSmith, Dodgerdog1, a2nite

                She Did Frame It Didn't She (6+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    howabout, ichibon, Dave in Northridge, freakofsociety, Powered Grace, lyvwyr101

                I Recall Mike (13+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    raina, a2nite, blueoregon, Yasuragi, Free Jazz at High Noon, gizmo59, NearlyNormal, JaxDem, TrueBlueMajority, jennybravo, Avila, arizonablue, Larsstephens

                I Recall Moving From The North (56+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    TrueBlueMajority, Joy of Fishes, Lonely Liberal in PA, ferg, maggiejean, Larsstephens, Cassandra Waites, dotdash2u, Rogneid, jan4insight, elfling, Mother Mags, ER Doc, YucatanMan, Williston Barrett, Free Jazz at High Noon, NapaJulie, ichibon, Vetwife, RiveroftheWest, river0, Blue Bell Bookworm, shypuffadder, KJG52, Pinto Pony, Nance, Naniboujou, Eddie L, Geenius at Wrok, Steven D, majcmb1, ahumbleopinion, ChemBob, wintergreen8694, WisVoter, collardgreens, jfromga, Smoh, timewarp, Beetwasher, Tam in CA, Aspe4, Aquarius40, side pocket, kyril, oortdust, basquebob, A Citizen, Subterranean, historys mysteries, mali muso, greengemini, TheDuckManCometh, Dirtandiron, 1BQ, schnecke21

                I Was Born In Baton Rouge In 1969 (10+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    Vetwife, Free Jazz at High Noon, CA wildwoman, BachFan, glorificus, greengemini, texasmom, devtob, Alexandra Lynch, truong son traveler

                 Yes It Is Said In Many Households I Bet (8+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    Denise Oliver Velez, mallyroyal, Laurel in CA, high uintas, paul2port, leftist vegetarian patriot, texasmom, justiceputnam

                 I Hate To Admit This (20+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    Denise Oliver Velez, justiceputnam, mallyroyal, cotterperson, ericlewis0, JoanMar, blueoregon, mali muso, tytalus, marleycat, high uintas, Lorinda Pike, La Gitane, Tamar, paul2port, leftist vegetarian patriot, texasmom, bluesheep, gizmo59, starfu

                That Is Why I Don't Spend Much Time (8+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    ek hornbeck, Anak, TiaRachel, pgm 01, MattR, ericlewis0, blueyedace2, BruinKid

                I Could Talk For Hours And Hours (25+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    Lefty Coaster, DeadHead, exterris, skohayes, akze29, revbludge, Matt Z, BlueStateRedhead, tommyfocus2003, deha, chicagoblueohio, Empower Ink, avsp, Dallasdoc, myboo, celdd, ivorybill, hopesprings, Smoh, janmtairy, Beetwasher, a2nite, wasatch, J M F, madhaus

                 My Parents Are Life Long Republicans (41+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    MartyM, Free Jazz at High Noon, DeadHead, exterris, gffish, skohayes, akze29, revbludge, Matt Z, ItsSimpleSimon, deha, chicagoblueohio, ruleoflaw, Creosote, filkertom, auron renouille, TexMex, Glinda, avsp, myboo, snowman3, Stude Dude, celdd, Hey338Too, cassandracarolina, ivorybill, hopesprings, janmtairy, Smoh, Senor Unoball, 417els, Beetwasher, a2nite, mmacdDE, wasatch, greengemini, sagansong, J M F, Ice Blue, antirove, madhaus

                I Think I Understand. I Am A White Dude (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    Bagger, XenuLives

                I Recall A Time (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    justiceputnam

                "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

                by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:44:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Why are you telling me? (11+ / 0-)

                  I didn't uprate a single one of those.

                  This has been taken to a whole new  level of below petty. I have no idea what you're trying to prove. As I said, folks have been generous in their recommendations, and you have shown that they may have been wrong to do so. You may have even embarrassed some of them.

                  Congratulations. I'm sure many of them will be stingier in their recommends from here forward.

                  Frankly, I have no idea what you wanted. But that is a likely result. So woo! You did it.

                  © grover


                  So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                  by grover on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:02:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I didn't say you or I recommended any . (0+ / 0-)

                    Why would anyone be bothered if their recommending a comment is shown ?
                    Its part of the record here . It can be looked at , posted and talked about .

                    As I said, folks have been generous in their recommendations, and you have shown that they may have been wrong to do so.
                    I have not shown that . I looked at the list , posted the list to show that in the past these people recommended his use of that word the way he used it . Their feeling about his use of that word in his past comments can be seen via the recommends they gave . That's important to think about , imo .
                    If someone is not only tolerated , but actualy recommended ,
                    turning around and claiming its an offense is more than a little interesting . If you look at who recommended you can see that some people who are very respected on the subject have in fact recommended his use of the word the way he was using it .

                    Something changed , he went from getting recommends from people to getting hide rates and serious follow up comments .
                    This change is something to look at and think about .
                    He didn't change , his comments are all along the same lines , but the reaction changed wildly .
                    The two reactions are not compatible .

                    "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

                    by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:54:27 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  How would that work ? (0+ / 0-)
              My guess?
              People giving him the benefit of the doubt.
              He made many comments with that word that got lots of recommends .
              If it was benefit of the doubt , why rec ?

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:14:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  What do you make of the recomenders (0+ / 0-)

          of the past 13 comments of his from the last year , that contained that word ?
          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          I see some well respected names on that list and I don't see my own .
          ..............
          I Often Feel "Small" (3+ / 0-)

          BOHICA,
          llbear,
          Crashing Vor
          ................
           I Live Not That Far From There (12+ / 0-)

          tmservo433,
          psnyder,
          palantir,
          Tara the Antisocial Social Worker,
          Youffraita,
          FlyingToaster,
          annetteboardman,
          mookins,
          splashy,
          LSmith,
          Dodgerdog1,
          a2nite
          .............
          She Did Frame It Didn't She (6+ / 0-)

          howabout,
          ichibon,
          Dave in Northridge,
          freakofsociety,
          Powered Grace,
          lyvwyr101
          .......
          I Recall Mike (13+ / 0-)

          raina,
          a2nite,
          blueoregon,
          Yasuragi,
          Free Jazz at High Noon,
          gizmo59,
          NearlyNormal,
          JaxDem,
          TrueBlueMajority,
          jennybravo,
          Avila,
          arizonablue,
          Larsstephens
          ...........
          I Recall Moving From The North (56+ / 0-)

          TrueBlueMajority,
          Joy of Fishes,
          Lonely Liberal in PA,
          ferg,
          maggiejean,
          Larsstephens,
          Cassandra Waites,
          dotdash2u,
          Rogneid,
          jan4insight,
          elfling,
          Mother Mags,
          ER Doc,
          YucatanMan,
          Williston Barrett,
          Free Jazz at High Noon,
          NapaJulie,
          ichibon,
          Vetwife,
          RiveroftheWest,
          river0,
          Blue Bell Bookworm,
          shypuffadder,
          KJG52,
          Pinto Pony, Nance,
          Naniboujou,
          Eddie L,
          Geenius at Wrok,
          Steven D,
          majcmb1,
          ahumbleopinion,
          ChemBob,
          wintergreen8694,
          WisVoter,
          collardgreens,
          jfromga,
          Smoh,
          timewarp,
          Beetwasher,
          Tam in CA,
          Aspe4,
          Aquarius40,
          side pocket,
          kyril,
          oortdust,
          basquebob,
          A Citizen,
          Subterranean,
          historys mysteries,
          mali muso,
          greengemini,
          TheDuckManCometh,
          Dirtandiron,
          1BQ,
          schnecke21
          ...........
          I Was Born In Baton Rouge In 1969 (10+ / 0-)

          Vetwife,
          Free Jazz at High Noon,
          CA wildwoman,
          BachFan,
          glorificus,
          greengemini,
          texasmom,
          devtob,
          Alexandra Lynch,
          truong son traveler
          .................
          Yes It Is Said In Many Households I Bet (8+ / 0-)

          Denise Oliver Velez,
          mallyroyal,
          Laurel in CA,
          high uintas,
          paul2port,
          leftist vegetarian patriot,
          texasmom,
          justiceputnam
          ..............
          I Hate To Admit This (20+ / 0-)

          Denise Oliver Velez,
          justiceputnam,
          mallyroyal,
          cotterperson,
          ericlewis0,
          JoanMar,
          blueoregon,
          mali muso,
          tytalus,
          marleycat,
          high uintas,
          Lorinda Pike,
          La Gitane,
          Tamar,
          paul2port,
          leftist vegetarian patriot,
          texasmom,
          bluesheep,
          gizmo59,
          starfu
          .....
          That Is Why I Don't Spend Much Time (8+ / 0-)

          ek hornbeck,
          Anak,
          TiaRachel,
          pgm 01,
          MattR, ericlewis0,
          blueyedace2,
          BruinKid
          ......
          I Could Talk For Hours And Hours (25+ / 0-)

          Lefty Coaster,
          DeadHead,
          exterris,
          skohayes,
          akze29,
          revbludge,
          Matt Z,
          BlueStateRedhead,
          tommyfocus2003,
          deha,
          chicagoblueohio,
          Empower Ink,
          avsp,
          Dallasdoc,
          myboo,
          celdd,
          ivorybill,
          hopesprings,
          Smoh,
          janmtairy,
          Beetwasher,
          a2nite,
          wasatch,
          J M F,
          madhaus
          ............
          My Parents Are Life Long Republicans (41+ / 0-)

          MartyM,
          Free Jazz at High Noon,
          DeadHead,
          exterris,
          gffish,
          skohayes,
          akze29,
          revbludge,
          Matt Z,
          ItsSimpleSimon,
          deha,
          chicagoblueohio,
          ruleoflaw,
          Creosote,
          filkertom,
          auron renouille,
          TexMex,
          Glinda,
          avsp,
          myboo,
          snowman3,
          Stude Dude,
          celdd,
          Hey338Too,
          cassandracarolina,
          ivorybill,
          hopesprings,
          janmtairy,
          Smoh,
          Senor Unoball,
          417els,
          Beetwasher,
          a2nite,
          mmacdDE,
          wasatch,
          greengemini,
          sagansong,
          J M F,
          Ice Blue,
          antirove,
          madhaus
          .................
          I Think I Understand. I Am A White Dude (2+ / 0-)

          Bagger
          XenuLives
          ...............
          I Recall A Time (1+ / 0-)

          justiceputnam
          ...................................
          These are all people who in the past year have not objected to the use of the word as he was using it ,
          they recommended his comment/s where he used that word .
          If he is not to use the word , I can see how he might have been given the wrong impression via the many many recommends his comments had gotten in the past .
          I see someone on the list who is someone who knows whats what , I see that name more than once .
          I see many well respected users on that list of people , they all recommended his use of the word as he used it .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:25:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nothing (9+ / 0-)

            But I am going to make a lot out of the fact that you either didn't understand or refuse to take to heart the point of my comment. It is irrelevant that his usage was uprated before.  The context of those uprates is not the same context in which he was HRd yesterday.

            Your bibliography of his prior comments merely helped those of us who weren't sure about whether HRs were appropriate yesterday be sure.  Because this user's use of the word is not as completely innocent as you might like it to be.  His body of comments demonstrates that he feels entitled to use the word.  Whenever he feels like it. Just because he claims to be "over it." Even if it is absolutely not appropriate in context.

            No white person gets the privilege of having those who know it when they see it ignore it, no matter how long it takes to see it.  Clearly, your friend tipped over a cliff.  Perhaps you should be spending more time trying to get why it's problematic than continuing to insist that folks gave you a clear answer about why the past rating behavior in favor of your friend is not inconsistent with present rating behavior sanctioning your friend keep arguing with you.  

            •  What ? (0+ / 0-)
              Because this user's use of the word is not as completely innocent as you might like it to be.
              I didn't claim "innocent" , that was not my point , I questioned the wild swing from lots of recommends to lots of hide rates , for what seems to me the same sorts of comments .
              You will notice I never recommended or hide rated any of the comments from him containing the word .

              I saw someone getting lots of hide rates for something he had done before and gotten lots of recommends for , and I questioned what changed .

              So whats the deal ?
              Why is it that redacted is recommendable over and over and over ?
              Until it a bad thing ?

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 08:16:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you need to identify (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                a2nite, WakeUpNeo

                which statements/comments were made "inside" Black Kos - which has a different way of dealing with people sharing their experiences - and with rec'ing comments.

                To simply throw up a list - doesn't make it clear what was happening.

                We often get people who join bkos - who are white, who discuss their experience with not just the n word - but with racism in their own families or in themselves.

                We also have black people inside of bkos who have - from time to time used the term or have posted certain music that uses the word.

                When the poster  has come into bkos to join and share or introduce themselves to the group - we all tend to rec comments (with the exception of those comments from people who have come into dead threads to trash bkos - you will often find hr's on those)

                "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition." Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon

                by Denise Oliver Velez on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 05:49:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Oh really ? (0+ / 0-)
          And respectfully, you're trying to hide this user's habitual gratuitous use of the word
          I posted all the comments he made using that word for the last year and you claim I'm trying to hide this user's habitual gratuitous use of the word ?

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:45:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Except when you're trying to make a point... (26+ / 0-)

      ...The point I have tried to make on several occasions is that the term "redskin" is just as bad as "n----r."

      The reason I've done that is because a large percentage of people here don't believe that. They may frown just a little when they hear or see that word. But they cringe when hear or see "n----r." The fact I can write "redskin" and nobody tells me I should write "r-----n" tells me a lot.

      Some have argued here, not in the distant past, but this very year, that "redskin" attached to an NFL football team isn't really a slur. And nobody says I should write "Washington Redacted" when talking about that team.

      Why not?

      If the team's name was the "Washington N----Rs," everybody would be telling me to redact it. Of course, if the team were named that, RFK Stadium would be ringed protesters blocking sports fans from entering until the owner changed the name. Other NFL teams would refuse to play them. Members of the team would do sit-ins on the field.

      Until that day comes, until "redskin" gets acknowledged for the odious term it is, I will continue to compare it to "nigger" without redacting either one.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:16:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm ambivalent about the *general* issues of (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eyesbright

        using native american symbology in the context of sports teams, or for that matter various other institutions.

        But my opinion with respect to the team from Washington is precisely the same as yours.

        Wanna see something that'll make you wanna throw up?

        http://home.kamsillini.com/

        Some day, in a thread that isn't about just language, I'll tell you about the sign they used to have over their storefront. Maybe they still do. I haven't been that way in a long time.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:38:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Now that is a clearly written comment on (9+ / 0-)

        language, on inconsistent standards, and the uncomfortable hypocrisy of privilege. It is clear because it explains four of the most important features regarding the choice of 2 specific words, vs. their euphemisms: 1) motive of the speaker, 2) context, 3) scale, and 4) exactly parallel social constructs.

        If I may extend the poster's illustration a little bit further. Everyone recognizes what n----r is replacing but how many people would recognize what r------s is replacing?

        By privilege, I refer interested readers to recent DKos discussion on white privilege. In one form it is the privilege to be horrified by gun violence when it happens to "us" and ignore historical genocide we carried out on "them".

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:13:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This is an excellent point, sir, but (0+ / 0-)

        if an NFL team is named "R------s", is the name used in a pejorative way?  Isn't it meant to appropriate some of the qualities (however unearned) that are associated with word--e.g., bravery, warrior, spirit, courage, fierce, etc. to the team?  

        Whereas, isn't the use of  "n----r" just the opposite? (No NFL team is going to name itself the "Washington N-----s".)

        So why is the use of the terms comparable in the situation you're describing?  

        •  Because that NFL team name is racist. (8+ / 0-)

          It's always a racist term. The orginal team owner was a known and unapologetic racist.

          Marshall marketed his team to a white Southern audience by playing Dixie before games and saying proudly, “We'll start signing Negroes when the Harlem Globetrotters start signing whites.” This is why the team is called Redskins: it was a racist name from a racist owner.
          ,...
          In 1961, the Redskins moved into brand new, publicly financed DC Stadium (now RFK Stadium); the shiny new facility quickly became a battleground, with competing demonstrations held by segregationists and civil rights activists alike.

          ...
          Under banners reading “Keep Redskins White!” the American Nazi Party and the Ku Klux Klan paraded around the stadium in protest.  

          http://www.thenation.com/...

          There is no homage to the nobility or bravery of the American Indian here. That's a farce that the NFL tries to hide behind. It's a horrible team mascot name chosen by a racist team founder.

          The nasty ugly terms are equitable.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:34:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yesterday , (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eyesbright

        it was said that the word was never to be used .
        I posted your comments to show that "never to be used" could not be the rule .

        "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

        by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:25:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  place and time, I suspect (13+ / 0-)

    I well remember the days when seeing the n word on daily kos--dully spelled out in diaries, comments, diary titles, wherever--was almost a daily occurrence. That you found less than 400 instances over whatever time period is an improvement.

    Anyway, though, as with any number of things, place, time and context matter. As do people.

    The instance you cite--the diary in which the comment was made was written by a Black woman, the subject was the continuing efforts of activists (many of whom are Black,) to attempt to bring about positive change out of yet another shooting of an unarmed Black teenager.

    Wrong time, wrong place, for an apparently frequently told story that not only apparently struck a painful blow, but was not relevant to the discussion.

    Should it have been hidden at all or, if so, quite so thoroughly? Shrug--dont know. "Redacted" is a powerful, painful, history-laden word in the hands/mouths of white people--you take your chances how the use of it will be received in any given situation.

    True radicalism is finding reasons for hope, not grounds for despair. - Ray Williams

    by Nanette K on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:33:37 PM PDT

  •  What you have here, I think (9+ / 0-)

    is a curious result of the ultimately subjective moderation system that we have in place. I look to the community for guidance, and sometimes the community is inconsistent.

    I know this much though, that's not a word I am comfortable saying (or writing) in public. Definitely not one that I go seeking out opportunities to use in public. Anyone who does had better be prepared to defend it.

    There seem to be people who are permitted to use it, and circumstances which allow for it. I would say 'no one would ever hide MB' but I know Bob Johnson would probably go and do it just for grins.

    Unfortunately this last instance was dropped like a grenade with no further response. We were discussing outlets for positive action and I got that bolt from the blue. That and the lack of a defense may have contributed to the pile-on. Perhaps if webranding had stuck around to respond to...anybody...it might have stopped.

    Well, that and it's what often happens when a comment appears in the hiddens; the folks in the group diary were content to give it a couple donuts and done.

    Hermits have no peer pressure. -- Steven Wright
    Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

    by tytalus on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:38:33 PM PDT

  •  I read recently - but cannot remember where - (13+ / 0-)

    that the word redacted was the very last word that thousands of African American people heard immediately before their planned and painful deaths.

    When I let that thought roll around in my mind for just a short while, I get a nauseated feeling deep in my gut. I suggest that all white Kossacks ponder that thought.

    I am a white guy. I know about white privilege. Once at the age of 12 I ran from a police officer. Other boys in my city were shot in the back for doing the same. They were not white.

    In our national struggle against the oligarchs and against racism, as we unify in this struggle, it seems to me to be respectful to my black friends, my black brothers and sisters, to Hide Rate comments or diaries that spell out redacted.

    I am not saying to burn the dictionaries or not teach the word or that we should forget about our history. By not using the word, to the contrary, we are respecting our history.

    I was participating in that diary when the redacted comment was made, and I decided not to hide-rate that comment. I tend to save my donuts when pile-ups occur. I think if we can express a concept without using redacted, we should.

    IMHO, spelling out the word redacted should be hide on sight (HOS).

    •   Agree (7+ / 0-)

      mostly.  I think that there can still be times when the word can be written out with its power and history acknowledged. In fact, I'm not sure I want it to be a word sterilized and set away on a museum shelf not to be touched, although that's a decision the African-American members of this community should probably make, not me.

      But your comment is insightful and wise.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:45:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Will you hide rate Meteor Blades ? (0+ / 0-)
      IMHO, spelling out the word redacted should be hide on sight (HOS).
      http://www.dailykos.com/...
      The kind of war-whooping, tomahawk-chopping... (80+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
          navajo, Carol in San Antonio, a gilas girl, Friend in Miami, klompendanser, Cat Servant, Phil S 33, myboo, 4Freedom, betson08, Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse, Joy of Fishes, MaikeH, JanetT in MD, gramofsam1, Joieau, mollyd, Morgana, northerntier, defluxion10, Lujane, JL, old wobbly, greengemini, tytalus, middleagedhousewife, no way lack of brain, carver, OIL GUY, hilltopper, My Spin, OleHippieChick, broths, Egalitare, sow hat, Mindtrain, Subterranean, gypsytoo, valadon, highacidity, politicalceci, Debby, sanglug, HappyinNM, distraught, JBL55, 714day, sngmama, Fury, Chinton, Vita Brevis, arlene, cacamp, Catskill Julie, Nautical Knots, lostinamerica, Cali Scribe, abs0628, kj in missouri, parsonsbeach, ozsea1, luvmyprez, gloriana, beth meacham, gof, p gorden lippy, Gorette, LSophia, Gator Keyfitz, Thestral, susanWAstate, koosah, Gordon20024, Forest Deva, schnecke21, DSPS owl, DianeNYS, mayim, condorcet, HCKAD

      ...behavior displayed by Brown's campaign staff emerge, sad to say, as a result of the attitudes that remain widespread in America when it comes to Indians. It continues to be okay, for example, to have a national football team named the "Redskins," as offensive to many Indians as would be a team called the Washington "redacted" or the Cleveland "Spics" to blacks and Latinos.

      Stereotypes, including new ones about "casino revenge," plague us across the tribes. National discourse is filled with little smears like "off the reservation" and the use in the military of "Indian country" to describe hostile territory in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere. Recently, a public official labeled Indians at a hearing "hostile."

      As navajo and I have pointed out in our First Nation News & Views series, the insults and the subtle and not-so-subtle attacks on Indians are not a thing of the past. They happen every day. That doesn't give the Brown campaign any excuse.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 09:36:44 AM PDT

      Will you hide rate mallyroyal ?
      these fools still use "states' rights." (52+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
          kestrel9000, AnnetteK, LeftyAce, kjoftherock, Fleet, S F Hippie, Remembering Jello, sethtriggs, kevin k, CoExistNow, TheLizardKing, Debby, Jay C, MKinTN, MidwestTreeHugger, lisajones, sngmama, LilithGardener, The Marti, Tool, ssgbryan, PennBrian, Crabby Abbey, WFBMM, splashy, Plu, grover, smartdemmg, chipoliwog, mayim, kat68, Over the Edge, Eddie L, blackjackal, duckhunter, Chitown Kev, thatpj, chicagoblueohio, maybeeso in michigan, isabelle hayes, easmachine, schnecke21, a2nite, Hillbilly Dem, mamamedusa, Cuseology, Reel Woman, shanikka, CA wildwoman, Dhavo, mikejay611, carrps

      and I still hear "redactedredacted" every time.

      This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

      by mallyroyal on Tue Nov 13, 2012 at 11:10:38 AM PST

      "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

      by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:39:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You can point to MB's comments here (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WakeUpNeo, 2thanks, joedemocrat

        in this diary, as well. But yes, the rule is inconsistent; it is evidently not hide on sight. I explained why I think that is just above this thread.

        Hermits have no peer pressure. -- Steven Wright
        Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

        by tytalus on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:26:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Its not only inconsistent (0+ / 0-)

          its wildly inconsistent .
          The reaction goes from one extreme to the other .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:57:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Extreme reactions (0+ / 0-)

            seem appropriate for this word, although I don't think the responses are based on just the word in all of the instances of its usage that you've found. That is, unless you think folks love it if it comes out of MB's keyboard. I am skeptical of that notion.

            The lesson to me seems clear, and given your choice of language it seems clear to you too. Now, how hard is that?

            Hermits have no peer pressure. -- Steven Wright
            Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue

            by tytalus on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:38:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Its not just me who needs to see it , (0+ / 0-)

              unless there is a wide spread understanding , a nice set of community wide understandings , the same problems will pop up .

              Extreme reactions
              seem appropriate for this word, although I don't think the responses are based on just the word in all of the instances of its usage that you've found.
              The reactions should be consistent , it should not be wildly one day and wildly the other on another day .

              If you look at the quoted posts by the one who just got his comment hidden , I think you will see that the reactions are wildly different for the same type of use of the word .  

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:34:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  No, i won't HR Meteor Blades (12+ / 0-)

        please re-read shanikka's excellent comment where she discusses all the comments you found in your search.

        This is a matter of context. Re-read MB's and other comments in your diary. And listen this time to what is being said.

        •  Some say its to be hide rated . (0+ / 0-)

          That the word is never to be used .
          So I ask , will they hide rate M.B. ?
          If they are not willing ,
          then it is not a hide rate right away word .
          How it is used is what gets it recommended or hidden .

          This is a matter of context. Re-read MB's and other comments in your diary. And listen this time to what is being said.
          We are talking passed each other .

          If you would go back to yesterdays hidden comment ,
          can you tell me the word was used as an insult ?
          Was it flung at anyone ?
          Or was it posted about the people who used it in the past
          to show how wrong those people in the past were ?

          I believe he posted it not as in insult ,
          I don't believe he flung it at anyone .
          I believe that the same reasons that M.B.s use of the word is fine , covers the other use that was hidden .

          Some are claiming "context" makes it a hide rateable use .
          Some are saying that the repeated use of the word in the comment makes it a hide rateable comment .
          Some are saying it may never be used .
          Some are saying if you don't type out the whole word then its ok .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:26:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In Words of One Syllable (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joedemocrat, tytalus, grover, WakeUpNeo, poco

            If the word is used gratuitously (i.e. the context does not make clear that the word is necessary to further the discourse) or as an insult it is HRable.

            A person of color, such as MB, would not use the word such. Of course, were he to do so the above would apply to him.

            But we're not talking about a person of color here, are we?

            And, IMO, that's what's really got you upset:

            All those folks that aren't white saying "Hey white people--you CANNOT use this word just because. WE will decide, not you, when and if it's appropriate."

            Just own it, OK?  Because frankly no other explanation fits for why you don't just take to heart what I and others have tried to tell you about the thing you keep harping on (why sometimes your friend was rec'd, and why yesterday he wasn't.  You want a "race neutral" "context neutral" rule.

            Well, hon: you can't have one as it relates to use of the word "nigger." Deal with it.

            •  X2 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              grover

              nosotros no somos estúpidos

              by a2nite on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 06:19:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Eh (0+ / 0-)
              And, IMO, that's what's really got you upset:
              I didn't say I was upset . If you think I wrote the diary because I was "upset" , you misread my feelings . I was interested in discussing this issue . But instead of a discussion I got all sorts of things said about me , unpleasant things , unkind things , insulting things .
              All those folks that aren't white saying "Hey white people--you CANNOT use this word just because. WE will decide, not you, when and if it's appropriate."
              My only focus / concern was the reaction swinging so wildly from lots of recs to lots of hide rates for what looks to my eye to be the same type of comment from the same person .

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 08:30:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'm guessing that you thought I was saying (0+ / 0-)

              that any and all uses of that word were acceptable ,
              that no one should be hide rated for using that word .
              Or that all uses of the word are equal .
              If that is what it looked like I was saying ,
              I redacted every single one of them from my diary ,
              that took a while and a little effort .
              I didn't use it once in the diary or the comments ,
              I did that because I know its inflammatory.
              If I thought any all all uses are OK ,
              why would I remove all and not use it even once in the diary or the comments ?
              If I were making the argument that any and all are ok ,
              why would I refuse to use it myself in the diary and or comments ?

               

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 01:47:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  My "friend" ? (0+ / 0-)
              (why sometimes your friend was rec'd, and why yesterday he wasn't.
              I hide rated him when he did the typo , when people were asking me to remove my hide rate , I said no . If you look you will not see my name recommending his comments . I don't follow him , he doesn't follow me .
              http://www.dailykos.com/...
              Really. Look I Got NO Problem (3+ / 24-)
              Recommended by:
                  MrAnon, Bluesee, MikePhoenix
              Hidden by:
                  jdsnebraska, Bush Bites, Its the Supreme Court Stupid, indycam, HudsonValleyMark, Eyesbright, allergywoman, tytalus, dream weaver, JoanMar, gchaucer2, KelleyRN2, doroma, kj in missouri, blue jersey mom, 1864 House, triciawyse, Pam from Calif, True North, Hamtree, Ebby, WakeUpNeo, Derfel, wretchedhive
              You want a "race neutral" "context neutral" rule
              I did not ask for that , I never even thought to ask for that , nor would I want that .  

              You have jumped to conclusions .
              I did not do this diary because he is my friend ,
              I did not ask for a "race neutral" or "context neutral" rule .

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 02:38:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Check this please for friendship . (0+ / 0-)

                http://www.dailykos.com/...

                I'm one of the people who HR'd it . (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                    elfling, dream weaver

                I'm still HRing it .
                I've said it should have lots of HR's on it forever .
                Its got nothing to do with who posted it , in my case .
                I HR'd it knowing that it was a typo .

                    Your enemies may have enjoyed HRing you til all that was left of your mojo was a skull and bones,

                It wasn't the HRs that got the skull and bones , that was made at the office .

                    but now the hunters have become the hunted. Let justice be done.

                You have got to be joking . You are going to hunt people ?

                Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

                by indycam on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:00:31 PM PDT

                ................................

                     Lots? (15+ / 0-)

                    Seriously, dude, if it was hidden with 2, that would be plenty, if it was only to hide it.  If it deserved more, it needed to be manually removed from the database by a tech.

                    Saying that a typo deserves 'lots of HR's on it forever' is just silly.

                    Donate to the Okiciyap Food Pantry

                    by Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN on Tue May 07, 2013 at 03:35:09 PM PDT

                ................................
                         That my be your opinion (1+ / 0-)

                        but my opinion is different .
                        With lots of hide rates no one can ever say DKos didn't care , gave it a pass , wasn't concerned , etc etc etc .
                        More hide rates don't cause the writer of the comment any harm . More hide rates don't hide it more . More hide rates on a single comment doesn't cause a banning .

                            If it deserved more, it needed to be manually removed from the database by a tech.

                        That's all fine but you can't honestly say that is what happens here on DKos . Your proposal doesn't fly . What you are proposing isn't something that happens , TPTB have said they don't want to be in the removing comments game . So I can't look at your solution as a real solution .

                        That he was banned for the comment , even after it was widely reported to be a typo shows the seriousness .

                            Seriously, dude,

                        Very F'ing serious Dude !

                        Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

                        by indycam on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:00:40 PM PDT

                ............................
                             Banning demonstrated a patent refusal (4+ / 0-)

                            to use the least bit of common sense.

                            Nothing more.

                            Wash. Judge Tells Cops To Return Man’s Marijuana Or Be Found In Contempt

                            by JesseCW on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:20:48 PM PDT

                ........................
                                 It was the only prudent action . (1+ / 0-)

                                It was a typo that said something very bad .
                                I believe the correct actions were taken .
                                The proper steps were taken .
                                I fault no one , not the commenter , not the hide raters , not the admins of this site .
                                If it were to happen again that someone made the very same mistake , and this was a very unique combination of words , I would hope the same hide rating , banning until checked out etc , would happen again .

                                Drop the name-calling MB 2/4/11 + Please try to use ratings properly! Kos 9/9/11 + Trusted Users have a responsibility to police the general tenor... Hunter 5/26/06

                                by indycam on Tue May 07, 2013 at 04:29:12 PM PDT

                "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

                by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 02:51:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  I've read it a few times . (0+ / 0-)
          please re-read shanikka's excellent comment
          What part of it do you think I'm missing ?

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:28:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Try looking up 'redacted' in a standard dictionary (0+ / 0-)

    The word means "edited", one talks about "redacted documents" or "a redacted paragraph", and so on.

    I suspect a lot of people confuse it with another word that starts with re----- and is considered not pc at the moment.

    When you come across the term being used as in the comments which have been HRed, you realize just how poor is the average American's command of the English language. I blame our collapsing public education and the fact that people read less and less.

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 10:56:46 PM PDT

  •  I saw it happen. I backed out, as that didn't (0+ / 0-)

    seem to be the time or place to fight the tide. I'm glad you've posted this.

    For me, there is a huge difference between using a word as a pejorative and pointing out exactly why and where it is and was ill-used.

    There is also a semantic component to this whole argument that bothers me. Words are used to symbolize things. The way you react to and interpret a symbol can cause pain. The symbol itself - is just a symbol. To say otherwise is to attempt to use sympathetic magic - the name of a thing can call up and control the thing. But it also works the other way around.

    When there is no perceived gap between a symbol and the reality it is describing, if a symbol is censored it will eventually be replaced, and the replacement symbol will eventually become as tainted as the original was, because the reality behind the word is still poisonous. That's happening with "black" today. On the tongue of a bigot, it's just as bigoted a word as "redacted" ever was.

    I thought Webranding's use of the word was legitimate in frame and context, and was both confused and concerned by the level of reaction it got.

    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

    by serendipityisabitch on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:16:33 PM PDT

  •  Context matters (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    grover, middleagedhousewife

    but then you know that.

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 11:17:42 PM PDT

  •  Did you send a kosmail to the other 14 people (18+ / 0-)

    who HR'd that comment? Just curious since that's how I found this diary. First of all, I don't appreciate that. Your diary was referred to by another commenter as a "cryptic callout", that's my feeling, too.

    The use of that word multiple times by that person was not appropriate in any way in that diary. I held off on HR'ing to see if maybe the commenter would at least apologize, over 2 hours later no apology or at least an acknowledgment of a poor choice in language given the context of the diary.
     HR's are to hide things, also to flag either the 'bot or a human admin as to an issue with a user. There seems to be an issue with this user behaving in disruptive and inflammatory ways lately.

    As for all the other times that a comment using that same word was rec'd?
    I suggest those who tipped it read comments closer and/or learn some history of that word and it's meaning and the pain, deep, deep, pain attached to it.

    As predicted, once again this same person insults a faction of this community and has apologizers step up for them.

    Putting the "who" aside, I'd have HR'd my bff if they had made that same comment.

    Please do not send me any more correspondence on this issue.

    "No matter where you are now, now is the time to build coalitions" Rev. William Barber

    by Oke on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:07:36 AM PDT

    •  I received a kosmail as well. (13+ / 0-)

      But it is okay, because I gave that HR for good reason, and do not mind discussing it here. And while the HR was directed at the comment and not the commenter, one could certainly make a case that some users here seem to use provocative language as a means to draw attention to themselves.

      Likewise, some use language that suggests that violence is acceptable.

      (Remember the Osama/Obama "typo"?)

      People really should stop to think before they post offensive comments; and be prepared to accept the consequences for their choice of words.

    •  I also got a kosmail (7+ / 0-)

      although I did not HR the comment.  I did reply to it, though and quoted the new (as of Aug 23) community guidelines.

      Any language designed to denigrate someone on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, nationality, physical appearance, etc. is prohibited.

      Community Guidelines

      Many of the examples in the diary are before the new guidelines were published. The new guidelines may result in more consistency after everyone gets used to them.  Or, not?
    •  I had a kos mail as well -- two actually n/t (9+ / 0-)

      As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them. John F. Kennedy

      by JaxDem on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:53:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Also sent to anyone, like me, that commented (11+ / 0-)

      in the thread of the HRd comment even though I did not HR or reply directly to HRd comment.

      “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

      by DefendOurConstitution on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 04:42:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I got a kos mail as well (10+ / 0-)

      And feel not one whit differently about hr'ing webranding. It only shows how right we all were that he apparently feels comfortable as a self-confessed white guy to throw the word around. Why is that?

      And several of his supporters are also self-confessed white people are arguing for his lack of intent to harm. Pure BS.

      If a black person used that word I think it would be received differently, because context does matter if it was a teachable moment. I see MB using it because of Washington's continued use of that horrible team name. He is trying to educate others as to why R****s is equally offensive.

      White privilege doesn't allow you to throw that term around just because you might have heard racist family members use it in the past. Nope. Sorry. Just stop it.

      My father used to say, "V, surely with all the words in the English language you could have found a better one."

      He was right.

      Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

      by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:01:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So let me get this straight ... (0+ / 0-)

        It's not okay for a white person to use the word.

        It might be okay for a black person, but it was okay for Meteor Blades?

        My head is spinning with the sheer contradictions.

        Underneath all of that, you do at least appear to be acknowledging that context matters, so that's something.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        Who is twigg?

        by twigg on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:08:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no contradictions (5+ / 0-)

          I was quite clear with what I said. Don't use the word ever, it is racist, it is ugly.

          If you do need to use it then context is king. Are you saying MB was wrong to use it as a comparison to why Red*** is comparably painful to Native Americans? Or that shanikka can't use it ever.

          In the comparisons MB used it 7 times over 16 months and always in the above example as a teaching tool. webranding used it about 13 times or so and always about his history. His time using it appears to be up.

          And since he hasn't commented or apologized I don't know why you feel you need to champion him.

          Spare me.

          Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

          by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:39:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Spare you? (0+ / 0-)

            Your reading comprehension appears to have taken a knock.

            I didn't "champion" him, I merely asked whether or not the comment needed more of a pile-on. Apparently it did, according to many, and I have no problem with that.

            If by "champion", you mean stating clearly and categorically that I thought the comment should be hidden, then I guess you are correct.

            I don't care how many times Meteor Blades made the remark. If one can make it, and allowing for the context, then ANYONE can make it, and the Hide Rates would be HR abuse.

            You acknowledge that context is the ruling factor, and I agreed with that.

            I will remind you that opinions that are contrary to yours are not BS, just because you don't happen to agree.

            The key to resolving issues is courtesy, and flinging epithets like "BS" around, is discourteous.

            You are not the Decider. You do not get to decide that a word is forbidden. We discuss these matters, and a prevailing view emerges, or a ruling is made.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:47:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You know what twigg? (0+ / 0-)

              Just back off. Do not respond to me. I was not talking to you anyway.

              Report me for hide rate abuse then, trumping up an argument that doesn't exist just to hassle me? Don't even go there.

              I am not the decider. Where did I claim to be? If you want to be the Moderator in chief than apply for the position, but unless and until you achieve that spot and have kos's formal sanction leave me alone.

              You are presuming way too much.

              Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

              by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:53:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In your last response you said this: (0+ / 0-)
                I was quite clear with what I said. Don't use the word ever, it is racist, it is ugly.
                and then immediately followed by this:
                If you do need to use it then context is king.
                Now you are making completely false allegations:
                , trumping up an argument that doesn't exist just to hassle me? Don't even go there.
                I am not hassling you at all. I am responding, politely and accurately to the points you are failing to make.

                You cannot forbid me from responding appropriately to comments in a Diary I am actively participating in.

                As for the rest of the diatribe that came from your imagination, I have nothing to say. I have not tried to "moderate" anything.

                You just threw that ridiculous accusation in because you ran out of reasoned responses.

                But I am done with you now, you have nothing, that much is clear.

                I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                Who is twigg?

                by twigg on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:01:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are hassling me. (0+ / 0-)

                  And you know it. So stop, now.

                  Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

                  by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 02:08:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Yes , I gave a heads up to everyone (0+ / 0-)

      so that it could be seen / discussed . I'll not be ashamed of that . It was not done with I'll intent .

      The use of that word multiple times by that person was not appropriate in any way in that diary.
      So his comment in another setting would have been recommended as his other comments had been over and over ?
      Your diary was referred to by another commenter as a "cryptic callout", that's my feeling, too.
      A "cryptic callout" of who ?

      "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

      by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 08:46:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your kosmail = creepy. nt (9+ / 0-)

        Extraigo el fruto de la Madre Tierra. - Cultura Profetica

        by boriquasi on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:15:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What part of this was creepy ? (0+ / 0-)
          See my diary .

          indycam

          Thu Aug 29, 2013 at 09:33 PM PDT

          http://www.dailykos.com/....

          Was it "See my diary" ?
          It couldn't be a link to the diary that you found creepy , because its only a link to click on .
          So it must be the only other thing "See my diary" .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 09:21:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the fact that you pursue people to (9+ / 0-)

            police them over menial shit, maybe?

            Facebook
            If you say "gullible" real slow, it sounds like "green beans."

            by weatherdude on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:25:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's a false claim . (0+ / 0-)

              I'd didn't pursue , I gave a heads up .
              I didn't police over them .
              Its not "menial shit" .
              Some intelligent people have commented / weighed in , if it was "menial shit" , I doubt they would have .

              My experience, especially in rural NC, is that (36+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
                  newpioneer, elwior, DuzT, ferg, Cyndiannp, ladybug53, ThirtyFiveUp, Shirl In Idaho, digitalmuse, ozsea1, ms badger, imnamerican, drmah, mama jo, ChemBob, Proud Mom and Grandma, Noor B, litoralis, nellgwen, Nespolo, grumpelstillchen, Orlaine, rccats3, SquirrelQueen, Creosote, LSophia, solesse413, Cassandra Waites, G2geek, riverlover, Calamity Jean, caryltoo, shypuffadder, worldlotus, Brooke In Seattle, Odysseus

              poor (mostly white) folks vote Republican because they're afraid that minorities will get all the government program benefits before they do. I heard a lady in the grocery store last summer say "We have to get that redacted out of office. He's giving all his chimp buddies my social security." I was floored. It's like an episode of "I Got Mine: Racist Edition."

              I don't think it's all racism, but it's a large part of it, especially in the south.

              by weatherdude on Mon Sep 17, 2012 at 06:40:13 PM PDT

              "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

              by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 10:34:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  congratulations on being able to use search. (7+ / 0-)

                we're all so proud of you.

                Facebook
                If you say "gullible" real slow, it sounds like "green beans."

                by weatherdude on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:09:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Care to talk about the subject (0+ / 0-)

                  or do you only want to do little pointless jabs that have zero impact ?
                  Your comments became meaningless to me years ago .
                  Your image of me has been clearly shown over and over , and I stopped caring what you thought of me , long long ago .
                  Do you recall what started all this ?
                  You recommended using adblock to other site users , I said you should not advise others to use adbock , I pulled up quotes from Kos re the use of adblock , you claimed I was doing you wrong . And that's the way its been since then .
                  You didn't react well to my informing you that adblock was not what Kos wanted , and you have held onto it for years .

                  "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

                  by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:05:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  hahaha (2+ / 0-)

                    I love how you bring that up even after all these years.

                    it was one ugly sleeve ad and you equated it to grand theft blog. you went on for days in unrelated threads trying to get someone to pay attention to you that I needed moderation for telling people to use adblock to hide the hideous planned parenthood sleeve ad.

                    ever since then, you've gotten in your nice little jabs at me, but you raise hell when I serve them back in kind for pointing out how ridiculous you act on this site.

                    you dug up a comment I made almost a year ago and try to equate it with what happened yesterday, totally ignoring that I didn't get involved at all until I mentioned that you're policing people.

                    it's called context, indycam. context.

                    Facebook
                    If you say "gullible" real slow, it sounds like "green beans."

                    by weatherdude on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 01:53:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What jabs ? Please link to them . (0+ / 0-)
                      you dug up a comment I made almost a year ago and try to equate it with what happened yesterday, totally ignoring that I didn't get involved at all until I mentioned that you're policing people.
                      I came across your comment last night when I was looking around the site , I though about including it along side Meteor Blades and mallyroyal as examples of how the word it used in a not hide rateable way , but I thought you would misunderstand so I left it out .
                      it was one ugly sleeve ad and you equated it to grand theft blog. you went on for days in unrelated threads trying to get someone to pay attention to you that I needed moderation for telling people to use adblock to hide the hideous planned parenthood sleeve ad.
                      That's not true , I didn't try to get anyone but you to see and understand . I didn't think I suggest that you needed "moderation" . I did find you in another thread , but I did that only to show you what I found . It wasn't stalking . It just took me awhile to find a copy of that note / warning that Daily Kos had been putting out . I thought it would be of interest to you .

                      I have said to others to not promote adblock , no one has taken it as badly as you did . I was not attacking you , I was giving you a heads up re adblock and DailyKos .

                      but you raise hell when I serve them back in kind for pointing out how ridiculous you act on this site.
                      I raise hell ? Today ? I'm very mild , to mild some have said today .
                      ridiculous
                      You know what , I don't need or want your abuse , if you want to talk about or think about "ridiculous" I could go there . Your record has more that a few scratch marks .
                      Do you recall the Meteor blades comment ?
                      Do you recall what Kos said ?
                      Do you recall leaving and then returning because enough people didn't leave with you ?
                      How about all the comments made about you and what you should and shouldn't do ?

                      "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

                      by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:05:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you seriously need a hobby. (0+ / 0-)

                        Facebook
                        If you say "gullible" real slow, it sounds like "green beans."

                        by weatherdude on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:45:17 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Because ? (0+ / 0-)

                          See my new sig line ?
                          This is what I am trying to do .
                          In the last few days I've been interacting with people on this site that last month I would have nothing to do with .

                          The biggest personal reset button in the world has been pressed , and my life has changed in ways that are unexplainable .

                          I don't expect any of that will make any sense or matter , but there it is .

                          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

                          by indycam on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 03:56:50 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Seriously creepy (2+ / 0-)

            Also officious, obnoxious and rapidly deleted.

            There is no question that there is an unseen world. The problem is, how far is it from Midtown and how late is it open? -- Woody Allen

            by Mnemosyne on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 04:32:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  This diary is beginning to seem "creepy," too. (24+ / 0-)

          Especially after viewing several of the diarist's recent, seemingly hostile comments. At this point I can't tell whether they failed to read and understand and/or accept the honest expressions of a cross-section of this community who commented here; if they are seeking clarification; if they disagree about some point(s); if they are trying to actively defend the careless use of the term; or if they are just simply attempting to stir some ***t.

          In any case, I have now removed my tip as it is not clear to me whether the "invitation" to contribute here was made in good faith for honest discussion, or for some other reason.

          Will check back later to assess whether any further response is warranted.

          •  hmm...you maybe right! nt (8+ / 0-)

            Although a soldier by profession, I have never felt any sort of fondness for war, and I have never advocated it, except as a means of peace. ~ Ulysses S Grant

            by vcmvo2 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 11:52:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I hadn't realised quite so many (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WakeUpNeo, SallyCat

            people received a "personal invite".

            I appreciated the heads-up because I had commented in the original matter, and it is something I think we need to talk about.

            There are some strong feelings about this, and I am conflicted because I can see much merit in both sides of the argument, so I haven't formed a solid view.

            It's something I will give some more thought to, but in any event, I no longer think this Diary is a place we can have a measured discussion.

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            Who is twigg?

            by twigg on Fri Aug 30, 2013 at 12:03:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It was not made with any I'll intent . (0+ / 0-)
            if they are trying to actively defend the careless use of the term; or if they are just simply attempting to stir some **t.
            I only wanted to talk about the wild swing in moderation , from recs to hide rates for what looks like the same type of comment by the same commenter .

            I didn't defend the use and I didn't intend to "stir some **t"

            "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. H.

            by indycam on Sun Sep 01, 2013 at 08:44:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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