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I know we've been told over and over by a few folks here that the all-powerful media giants, the Military Industrial Complex (MIC) and corporate cartels are working in concert on their secret plan for world domination, and that, somehow, bombing Syria is part of that secret plan because of oil and gas and PNAC and godknowswhatelse that was rolled up into the Giant Ball of Conspiracy™ and that Americans would fall in line like lemmings due to the overwhelming propaganda effort of these moneyed elites that leaves most Americans -- especially those poor bastards who have yet to understand what is really happening in this country -- glassy-eyed and helpless to resist this onslaught of propaganda...

But goddamn it if a new Pew poll doesn't show just the opposite!

That is, that in just the last week, opposition to U.S. involvement in Syria has shot up 15%, from 48% last week to 63% this week!

Despite the "propaganda."

Despite how fucking stupid ignorant blind most Americans haven't been reading diaries here telling them how fucking stupid ignorant blind they are being manipulated by the media giants, the MIC and the corporate cartels into supporting yet another war.

True, some of us have been saying (over and over) that most Americans are sick to fucking death of war in the Middle East and western Asia and want nothing to do with Syria, and that the administration had left a gaping hole in its rationalizations for action by not talking about the extended consequences of such action on the Assad regime, the rebels, for the region, for our relationship with Russia, and, ultimately for the U.S., but, hey, whaddo we know?

We're no freakin' experts!

Either that, or millions of Americans have been visiting Daily Kos and have had their eyes opened by those who know the real truth about what's going on in this country!

Yeah, that's probably it.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I hope President Obama slows (7+ / 0-)

    down the march to bombing and says we will engage on the diplomatic solution proposed by the Russians and accepted by Syria.  It's a way out.  Just negotiate.  All future options are still available.  This President has shown the milirary action of this sort requries a vote by Congrerss by his actions, this forcing Congress to take up its consitutional repsonsibilities.  Now he can give peace a chance (at least on this).  Negotiations might fail, but they are worth trying.

    As for your post, let it go.  Not worth keeping that dispute alive.  The person who authored many such diaries has moved on is publishing substantive and god diaries.

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:18:36 AM PDT

  •  Well both things could be true (6+ / 0-)

    The media could be serving up Americans lots of propaganda (they are) and Americans could be not swallowing (they aren't.)

    •  The predictions have been that the public will (5+ / 0-)

      ... swallow it, Hook, Line and Sinker.

      Some of us have argued that they would not.

      Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

      by Bob Johnson on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:21:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Indeed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis

      Both those things are true. And Americans weren't biting last week, either.
       

      The predictions have been that the public will swallow it, Hook, Line and Sinker.
      Despite all the heavy-duty PR on the Sunday Morning Wankfests? Nothing under that title.

      The only thing I could come up with was here at DK. In this diary title:

      Hook, Line, And Sinker - Selling The Bogus War on Syria
      and this comment:
      many people who buy the lies and false narratives hook, line and sinker to the point that they start repeating the MIC talking points almost verbatim.

      This time, at least so far, it looks like most of the American public are not buying into the propaganda, and the experience of the Iraq war has a lot to do with it.

      I fail to understand where there's a prediction that The Public Will Swallow It "at all", let alone "in such a way". Admittedly, I'm not a whiz with the search feature on this blog. Perhaps I'm just missing some sort of deeper significance overall?

      I'd love to know how much it actually matters, other than on this blog. To some people. Still.

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 11:06:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This has all been a diversion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calvino Partigiani, allenjo

    to keep us from talking about the NSA, Benghazi or Miley's twerking.

    I'm just not quite sure which one yet.

  •  the administration has hurt its own case (6+ / 0-)

    they're their own worst enemy.

    Their motives become more muddled and incoherent by the day, as they issue ultimatums and then lamely qualify that they weren't really issuing ultimatums, as they claim that Assad poses an existential threat on the magnitude of Hitler and then insist that any military action will be extremely minuscule and limited, as they stress the urgency of swift, decisive action and then insist they're going to act gradually and incrementally.

    Their own understanding of what this war is supposed to be about seems to grow more murky as time goes on.

    At this point, I think the smartest thing they could do for themselves is shut up immediately and hold the vote today. Because every time they open their mouth, they put their foot right in it. Give 'em another week and they'll have talked the whole country into opposing this war.

    "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

    by limpidglass on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:24:41 AM PDT

    •  When did they claim (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheLizardKing

      "Assad poses an existential threat on the magnitude of Hitler?" Kerry said he joined a select group of dictators, Saddam and Hitler, that have used CW against their own people. But they have never claimed Assad equaled the same existential threat.

      Give them another week and Syria might be turning all of their CW over to the UN and if that's the case I hope a lot of people here will rethink their internal naratives about this administration.

      •  what do you think "Munich Moment" means? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calvino Partigiani

        In any case, I hope you're right that some agreement happens.

        Dear NSA: I am only joking.

        by Shahryar on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:50:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that failure to respond to the use of CW would (0+ / 0-)

          show that their use would be tolerated and thus risk them being used regularly. That doesn't mean Assad poses the same existential threat as Hitler, it means history has shown what happens when international norms are violated without any repercusions.

          •  yes, like in the early 80's (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            on the cusp

            during the Iraq-Iran war when Saddam Hussein used poison gas on the Iranians with our assistance, that was followed by massive gas attacks on a daily basis by dictators around the world....wait, what? Oh. Never mind.

            "Something has gone very wrong with America, not just its economy, but its ability to function as a democratic nation. And it’s hard to see when or how that wrongness will get fixed." Paul Krugman and Robin Wells

            by Reston history guy on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 12:34:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sort of OT: The next time someone Goes Godwin (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueoasis, grover

            I'm going to direct them to this:

            That doesn't mean (Threat X,Y or Z) poses the same existential threat as Hitler, it means history has shown what happens when international norms are violated without any repercussions.
            Thanks for encapsulating the essence of "reality" into such a concise quote, I've been trying to write that effectively for a few years now....
             

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 12:58:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  one doesn't usually begin negotiations (0+ / 0-)

        by threatening to attack unilaterally. It's a poor basis for a diplomatic solution.

        They were all ready to strike until the British parliament voted down military action. Only then did Obama go to Congress.

        Anyhow, this wouldn't be the first offer from Syria they turned down. When Assad agreed to allow the UN inspectors in, the administration said it was too little, too late. And they may well say the same now.

        The State Department quickly qualified that Kerry had not been making an offer to the Syrians when he suggested that turning over Syrian CW to international control would avert war. The Russians chose to respond as if Kerry had been serious in order to call the administration's bluff. Now we'll see if the administration is willing to call the Russians' bluff, or if they'll just reject it out of hand.

        they have never claimed Assad equaled the same existential threat.
        The "Munich moment" business, we all know what that means. Opponents of military action are all little Neville Chamberlains looking to appease Hitler, not striking would be like letting Hitler have the Sudetenland, etc.

        Anyhow, these guys are almost surely going to war, Congressional authorization or no. You don't talk like they do and not go to war.

        "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

        by limpidglass on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 11:07:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I stated what MM means to me in a different reply, (0+ / 0-)

          I don't by this salivating for war arguement, if this were true, bombs would have fallen already. I do not agree with your frame that we began negociating by threat of force, but no matter the frame, if bombs don't fall AND CW are dismantled it's a big win, no matter who you want to give credit too.

    •  Kerry's bumbling in "making the case".... (0+ / 0-)

      was more fit for an episode of Gilligan's Island.

      The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

      by richardak on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 12:48:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  No banana for you. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    If Liberals hated America, we'd vote Republican.

    by ord avg guy on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:26:02 AM PDT

  •  Well I saw somewhere that up to 80% polled (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lunachickie, happymisanthropy

    agreed that Assad did it but don't want war over it. So that could show that 80% have fallen for the propaganda they just don't want anymore fucking wars.

  •  Obama is winning! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lunachickie, happymisanthropy

    It's all part of that 5th dimensional chess thingy. He wanted the American people to oppose fighting another war. He knew this was going to happen.
    [/snark]

    None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

    by gjohnsit on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:43:17 AM PDT

    •  Or perhaps more like the public is not as stupid (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      just another vet, Matt Z, grover

      ... as some folks here believe.

      Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

      by Bob Johnson on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:45:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I am not sure exactly what diary/diaries/ (0+ / 0-)

        poster/posters this diary is a response to, but:

        "perhaps more like the public is not as stupid as some folks here believe."

        Probably the most insightful comment I have seen in a while.

        "The next time everyone will pay for it equally, and there won't be any more Chosen Nations, or any Others. Poor bastards all." ~The Boomer Bible

        by just another vet on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:51:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think the big difference here... (0+ / 0-)

        between Iraq and Syria is that the Bushies managed to get people confused between al Queda and Iraq, thus, besides the misplaced revenge for 9/11 factor, they made Saddam seem like a real threat to Americans. There's none of that kind of fear and anger generating bullshit at play with Syria. There's bullshit being floated of course, but without nearly the same potency.

        Gassing people is pretty bad but, unless Americans are potential targets, it's hard to make anyone care enough to actually want to invade.

        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

        by richardak on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 01:05:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Obama is winning! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ord avg guy

      Maybe: he didn't want to get entangled in Syria, but found it impossible to ignore CW use, tried to make up his mind on the best course of action, while dealing with an unhelpful Russia, and bought himself some time for negotiation by seeking congressional authority. Even if he gets it, he may not decide to strike in favore of using his internaly strengthend position to press for a Russian led CW disarmament.

      I don't know the President's mind and I'm sure most people don't. That was proven by all the claims two weeks ago now that an attack by 8/29 was a sure thing, until it wasn't and Obama went to congress.

      •  Who was saying that again? (0+ / 0-)
        That was proven by all the claims two weeks ago now that an attack by 8/29 was a sure thing
        Gee, that's funny, I thought it was the POTUS saying that? Perhaps you've got some quotes and links to clear up the confusion?

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 07:36:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I've wondered too how some writers seem to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv

    want to appeal to an audience and "move" them toward unified action (at least symbolically) while also implying that anyone not buying that same writer's total vision are then relegated to the land of the gullible. Hard to imagine much real coalition-building going on if that is the manifesto.

    I discover myself on the verge of a usual mistake. ― Walt Whitman, Song of Myself

    by dannyboy1 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:46:31 AM PDT

  •  I did it (7+ / 0-)

    Blame or praise all should be directed at me.

  •  As much as you despise the people (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

    who post on Daily Kos, why do bother to post a diary here?

    Surely you cannot hope to accomplish anything by lecturing the insufferable, arrogant, know-it-alls who frequent this site.

    •  You are probably right about this... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      never forget, Sylv, Matt Z
      Surely you cannot hope to accomplish anything by lecturing the insufferable, arrogant, know-it-alls who frequent this site.
      'cause Lord knows he's outnumbered in that insufferable, arrogant,  know-it-all category.
      But, bless his heart, he does a damn good job of making us smile while he tries.

      Bob not post a diary here? stfu! Many times diaries like this have been the only damn thing of real quality for days on end.

      "No matter where you are now, now is the time to build coalitions" Rev. William Barber

      by Oke on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 11:25:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm going to guess that Bob hangs out here (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie

      With

      insufferable, arrogant, know-it-alls who frequent this site.
      For the very same reason that they engage in politics although they seem to  truly believe the Average American™  an ill-informed, dumb, self-involved, moron who only votes the way her husband,  boss or preacher tells her to vote.

      (I trust they truly believe this because they say it repeatedly).

      I have no idea what that reason is, exactly. Why bother with people you despise and can't influence?

      But if Bob does it, so do quite a few members here.

      (I actually do have my own ideas why Bob is here, and the others too. But since I have no extraordinary proof, I'll keep my theories to myself).

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 03:06:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bob's the only one (0+ / 0-)

      who actually knows what's going on with the American public. He's got his finger on the pulse of America, he does. Without his insight, we'd be talking into an echo chamber of horrendous partisanship, trying to figure out whether we're for Obama or just hippies for peace. Thank FSM for Bob Johnson!

      With such a low UID, I think Bob might be sort of a demi God, if you know what I mean. Speaking as one of the arrogant insufferables, I look for Bob's dose of cold reality.

      -5.38, -2.97
      The NRA doesn't represent the interests of gun owners. So why are you still a member?

      by ChuckInReno on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 01:47:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Chuck, this isn't about Obama. (0+ / 0-)

        It's about the claim, made here over and over, that the public will support the war do to a propaganda push by the media elite, the MIC and the corporate cartels.

        The public won't support the war. In fact, their opposition is mounting, not waning.

        Obama's numbers are near his all-time lows.

        My post had nothing to do with Obama or hippies or whatever it is you have playing out in your mind.

        Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

        by Bob Johnson on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 04:37:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Even lemmings don't line up like lemmings... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Johnson

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

    by richardak on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 12:42:53 PM PDT

  •  I hafta say I was VERY discouraged (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bob Johnson, lunachickie

    when the talking points of "oh noes, we have to be behind Obama on this because his foes will be more POWERFUL!" and this: "people are not protesting because of.... PARTISANSHIP!" entered the blogosphere.

    Hi NSA. I am doing constitutionally protected stuff - like free speech. Too bad you are not!

    by glitterscale on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 04:02:33 PM PDT

    •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      glitterscale

      Extremely weak arguments, if arguments at all.

      Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

      by Bob Johnson on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 05:01:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      glitterscale

      as opposed to people who are ever so much more reality-based.

      I mean, imagine! Being opposed to war because it's a bad idea. WTF is wrong with anyone who believes otherwise? Yet, to hear some talk about it a week later, it's as if no other reason was ever possible.

      Therefore, being opposed to war because it's a bad idea is the only reality-based reason for being opposed to it. Or something....

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 07:45:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Opposition to bombing Syria was high from... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glitterscale

        ... the get-go, including me and you and a majority of people here.

        That was the point of my diary. Despite all the claims to the contrary from conspiracy-heavy diaries that suggested the propaganda efforts of the media elite, the MIC and the corporate cartels would sway public opinion in favor of the war.

        It was never going to happen.

        People in this country are sick of wars in the Middle East and western Asia.

        So those claiming to be the "special ones" who can see through the propaganda are, indeed, very special.

        In their own minds.

        Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

        by Bob Johnson on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 04:42:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But that's not what it said (0+ / 0-)
          suggested the propaganda efforts of the media elite, the MIC and the corporate cartels would sway public opinion in favor of the war.
          What it said was--at least what most seemed to take away from it, including myself--was that a lot of folks, including a rather small yet vile contingent on this very blog were spewing propaganda on behalf of the corporate/MIS.
          many people who buy the lies and false narratives hook, line and sinker to the point that they start repeating the MIC talking points almost verbatim.
          But this time, NOBODY WAS FOOLED. That's right, in the very next sentence, Bob, the diarist points out the utter FAIL of that propaganda:
             This time, at least so far, it looks like most of the American public are not buying into the propaganda, and the experience of the Iraq war has a lot to do with it.

          Now, I could be wrong--and I'm happy to be corrected, as you no doubt will try--but I believe that was, in fact, the point of reference you falsely ascribe as saying (paraphrasing here) "the American people are so dumb they'd buy all the propaganda and root for another war."

          Unless you can find another passage in that diary, I think you've attempted here to mis-characterize it.

          Further, I think anyone here with a working brain understands already what little regard you hold for the diarist.  So if you have to go outside that specific diary to find such a passage, then please remember that may render your title hook rather moot.
           

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 07:15:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Utter bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            virginislandsguy

            From the same diary:

            The crescendo of voices calling for war (or is it "limited strike?") is growing louder and louder by the day (not, by the minute); the simplistic false dichotomies that are always used in war propaganda are repeated over and over, like a mantra: "We don't want babies to be killed with gas attacks by the monster, Assad, and so we need to launch missiles at the country to prevent babies form being killed."

            The mockery and name-calling and marginalizing of those calling for restrain, for careful examination of all the facts and all the options, increases exponentially, drowning out their voices, as drums of war are banged louder and louder--in a frenzy.

            That second paragraph is simply not true. Loads of people were calling for restraint and outright opposing any action whatsoever against Syria and these folks in opposition were all over the press and in the papers.

            Not only that, but the vast majority of the Americans public was -- and is -- against action in Syria, and at the time Ray wrote that gem, many of them were busy giving their congressional reps an earful at town hall meetings all across the country.

            Show me where there was "mockery and name-calling and marginalizing" of those arguing against U.S. involvement.

            It didn't happen.

            More of Ray's persecution/savior complex.

            It's a load of shit. In earlier comments, he predicted Americans would get onboard with the plans to bomb once the propaganda machine got rolling. Go back and look at his earlier diaries and comments on the subject.

            He was dead wrong.

            As kalmoth's post pointed out, Ray's predictive powers pretty much suck.

            Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

            by Bob Johnson on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 09:46:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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