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Despite the corporate media blackout about the growing and deepening resistance movement against the increasingly sadistic and brutal Corporate State, people all over the country are finding ways to unite in solidarity at the grassroots level, and in the face of a total failure of leadership by the utterly corrupt political class, they are taking matters into their own hands.

What these people are doing all over the country is truly a beautiful thing!  It's a true testament to the human spirit, to decency, to morality, to honesty.

Status of the Resistance Movement: Growing, Deepening, Succeeding

The movement continues to grow and broaden because of the very fertile environment created by a government that cannot respond to our demands for a fair economy, that tramples on our Free Speech and other rights and that puts profits ahead of protecting the planet. The hubris and greed of those with unfair wealth has not diminished. They continue to take more, want more and create a rigged economy that serves only them, not all of the people.

-- Kevin Zeese and Margaret Flowers , Truthout

Recently I wrote a diary about my encounter with a group of young social justice activists at Lake Merritt, in Oakland.  That experience gave me hope.  These young people were not only fully aware of the true nature of the system, but they were also engaged in taking positive steps to bring about the type of (real) change we need in the face of the endemic corruption that has engulfed our entire system of government.

But this rapidly spreading movement is happening all over the country, as reported by Kevin Zeese and Margaret Flowers at truthtout.

I encourage people to read the entire article, but in the meantime, let me highlight some of the hopeful developments about the movement.

Friendly Neighborhood TimeBank

At its most basic level, Time banking is simply about spending an hour doing something for somebody in your community. That hour goes into the Time Bank as a Time Dollar. Then you have a Time dollar to spend on having someone doing something for you. It's a simple idea, but it has powerful ripple effects in building community connections.Time Banking is about local individuals helping each other out, one-on-one or with group projects. They help rebuild neighborhood networks and strengthen communities.

Public Banking Institure

PBI's vision is to establish a distributed network of state and local publicly-owned banks that create affordable credit, while providing a sustainable alternative to the current high-risk centralized private banking system. This network will act in the public interest, using its counter-cyclical credit-generating capacity to stabilize potential credit crises, maintain the floor against threats of asset devaluations, build infrastructure, and fund expansion of critical industrial productive capacity.

One of the most exciting and promising developments I've seen is the growing realization that we can address the issue of unemployment and under-employment by embracing the concept of employee-owned businesses.
Through his new project, , economist Richard Wolff strives to develop a social movement that puts in place a reorganization of the economy built on a foundation of employee control of the workplace. Employees would act together as their own bosses in a fully egalitarian, democratic workplace where workers run the business, share the assets and create a workspace that runs in harmony with not only its workers, but the entire community.
One of the best resources I've found when it comes to a resistance movement against the Corporate State is Popular Resistance: Daily Movement News and Resources.

I like their straightforward approach: Resist; create; educate; organize; strategize.  It coincides perfectly with Bill Moyers' advice in his book "Doing Democracy: The MAP Model for Organizing Social Movements"

Social movements involve a long-term struggle between the movement and the powerholders for the hearts, minds, and support of the majority of the population.  Before social movements begin, most people are either unaware that a problem exists or don't believe that they can do anything about it.  They believe the powerholder's societal myths and support the high-sounding official policies and practices, all of which seem to be consistent with the culture's deeply held held values and beliefs...

~snip~

The strategy of social movements, therefore, is to alert, educate, and win over an ever increasing majority of the public.  First the public needs to be convinced that a critical social problem exists.  Then it must be convinced that policies need to be changed.  And then a majority of people must be mobilized into a force that eventually brings about an acceptable solution.

The emphasis is mine

Bottom line?  People have finally caught up with the lies, and are awakening to the reality of the situation: a government system captured by the wealthy; a surveillance police state to protect it; a corporate media conglomerate as its propaganda machine.

And now, with this realization, people are joining together, in solidarity to build alternative socioeconomic systems based on cooperation and sustainability principles.

Yes, on the one hand, as the brutality of the system increases, and as the economic depression continues, many people feel a sense of hopelessness.  But this reality is creating impetus for real change--from the grassroots.  And I think that's a positive thing.  It may help bring about a better world!

As for me?  I'd like to be part of this movement in any way I can.  I started a project I'm developing, Market For The People.

And of course, some of my personal priorities include: the proper investigation of war crimes, followed by indictments and trials; the proper investigation of the Wall Street criminal racketeering cartel, followed by indictments, trials and long prison sentences for those found guilty; the entire revamping of the regulatory infrastructure reestablishing provisions meant to protect the public from the depraved predation and corruption of the current system; clawing back trillions of ill-gained dollars from the top one percent of income takers; increasing top tax rates to 90 or 95% for the top one percent of income takers...

Don't lose hope.  Real change is coming.  Regardless of your personal situation, reach out, find out about how people are joining forces to support each other, to build community based on cooperation, justice, equality, and sustainability.

Finally, I'm starting a team-building initiative I'm calling "The October 15th Movement."  Basically what I'm trying to do is to recruit as many people as possible to take some sort of coordinated, strategic, and cohesive action (or actions) on the 15th of every month, starting on October 15th...

Here's what I'm thinking... Imagine 10,000 or 200,000 people coordinating actions (against the Oligarchy) every month on the same day.

There would be many advantages of doing this, including breaking the treasonous corporate media blackout on the movement coverage.

The first proof-of-concept test is a Fundraiser for Daily Kos on October 15th.  I'm asking people to on that day donate a minimum of $3 to Daily Kos.  I think there about 20 people who have pledged, but I want to get a minimum of 1,000 people.  Let's see what happens...

(BTW, I have no official contact with Daily Kos management; this fund-raising call is just me as a user asking people to join me in making a small donation to support the site's mission, and also as a team-building exercise.)

Then every month on the 15th, we could coordinate certain actions according to people's interests as it relates to social justice and anti-corruption activism.

Imagine LGBTQ activists, and environmental activists, and housing, immigration, activists making a point to take some sort of high-visibility action on the 15th of every month!  And these actions would be preceded by a month of public relation campaign, recruiting people, reaching out to media outlets, etc.

Here's more additional insight about the movement...


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Market For The People |Ray Pensador | Email List | Twitter | Facebook
P.S. There is a small group of users who regularly engage in disruptive behavior in my diaries' discussion threads.  I would like to ask people interested in serious discussion to avoid engaging these few folks in any way.  They usually engage in insults, mockery, and fallacies intended to derail discussion, and post several dozens messages each.  I know this may be annoying to some readers and may prompt them to engage these folks.  I highly recommend that they be ignored so we can focus on intelligent discussion.
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Comment Preferences

  •  Don't be silly. A corporation is an artificial, (10+ / 0-)

    i.e. man-made, body. Even the partnership we refer to as a marital union is a corporation because it is man-made. So, as long as humans form associations that other people recognize, we'll have corporations. The question isn't whether they exist, but how they function. Corporations that exist to dismiss or function without an ethical core need to be dissed and/or dismantled. But, we can do that. In fact, the dissolution of 320 banks in the last three years proves it. And, while the demise of these corporations is not much bruited about, there's no question the financial community is aware.
    The transformation of a regulatory regimen designed to facilitate commercial enterprise and mitigate risk into one that mandates ethical behavior is scary. It means that commercial man is going to have to be wary of consequence. "Buyer beware" is being transformed into "trader beware." The nexus of trade and exchange is being held to account. The market is no longer getting a free ride or a free lunch.
    It was great while it lasted -- the highwayman ensconced in the market-place under the umbrella of the rule of law.

    •  If only. (27+ / 0-)

      I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

      I see regulatory agencies totally captured the the industries they are nominally regulating. I see utterly craven and cynical Democratic politicians (cough-Cuomo-cough) shamelessly sucking up to billionaires and corporations with more give-aways, sweet-heart deals, back-door subsidies and tax cuts.

      I see a relentless corporate campaign to dismantle public schools, destroy teachers unions, and hand school tax funds over to private vendors, all with the sweaty and frantic support of conservative newspaper and media owners.

      And I see thousands of fabulously wealthy smug banksters pissing all over the working class folks who bailed them out from their criminal folly in 2008-2009, with the eager assistance of their government hirelings.

      •  Regulatory agencies were originally set up (7+ / 0-)

        to facilitate the operations of their client base. e.g. the Department of Commerce facilitates commerce and negotiates favorable trade deals with other countries.
        That commercial enterprise should be ethical is a revolutionary concept. What I suspect is that, in the long run, the so-called "consumer rights" revolution will be more significant than the civil rights revolution. I don't like the word "consumer" because of its pejorative connotation, even if its connection to physical ailments categorized as "consumption" is disregarded. BUT, consumers are at least natural persons, so recognizing their rights is a step closer to recognizing and respecting human rights.

        Looked at in another way, what's the point of a right to life when the state cannot only kill people, but send them to fight to the death and, if they don't subordinate themselves to somebody, they will starve -- i.e. not get enough sustenance to live.
        Ironically, the threat of starvation is made real by the establishment of the right to private property. The exclusive use of some portion of the earth means that everyone who doesn't own a piece of the earth can be excluded from gathering what s/he needs to survive.
        It used to be argued that private property ownership would guarantee it would be well used, made productive and not despoiled. That argument has been proven false by history. Which is not to say that common ownership is better. Ownership by one or many does not automatically translate into care. Ownership, in the mind of the predator means something can be destroyed at will. Many of out most polluted and poisoned lands are those which our military enterprise has left behind. That the land is to be respected is really annoying to predatory man.
        If Mother Nature can't serve as man's toilet, what use is she?

        •  What is silly about this? (14+ / 0-)
          Friendly Neighborhood TimeBank
          or this:
          Public Banking Institure
          May I ask that we focus on "What we, the Not-Corporate, Actual-Persons can do" right now, starting today?   You may be making valid points--forgive me, but you lost me at "Don't be silly", so I didn't read the endless paragraphs that followed.

          Those ideas enumerated in the diary are great. We do what we can, and thank goodness there are still decent people in this country.

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 07:00:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Using that word in the first comment could (4+ / 0-)

            could have the intended effect of undermining the content of the diary.  Sometimes people do it on purpose, and sometimes not.

            Another possible effect is thread-jacking because the comment jumps out so clearly as a non sequitir.

          •  The title is silly. (0+ / 0-)
            Revolutionary Change is Coming: The Corporate State Days Are Numbered
            Change does not come. The state is, by definition a corporate (artificial) body -- public, rather than private, but still a corporation. All days are numbered. Indeed, all our days are limited, if that's what "numbered" is supposed to mean.

            The author is no doubt sincere. If I didn't think he was worth attending to, I wouldn't bother. In this case, it was my judgement that he'd sabotaged whatever he'd written with a nonsense title.

            If some people disagree, fine. It makes for discussion that might otherwise not occur.

            •  In your humble opinion it "is silly" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mr SeeMore, Dianna

              I found it compelling.

              So go write your own diary with a perfect title

              To thine ownself be true

              by Agathena on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:21:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Language lessons (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              WB Reeves
              The state is, by definition a corporate (artificial) body -- public, rather than private, but still a corporation. All days are numbered. Indeed, all our days are limited, if that's what "numbered" is supposed to mean.
              These sound like the objections of someone who speaks English as a second language, or has an inability to understand figures of speech.

              To say of something that its "days are numbered" is simply a figurative way of saying that it will not exist for much longer. Taken literally it may be silly, but it is not intended to be taken literally.

              And yes, technically the state may be a corporation, but in common usage, the term very clearly refers to business rather than government (although the former is increasingly a cat's paw for the latter--another figure of speech!).  

            •  lol (0+ / 0-)

              Perhaps someone should compose a pedantic treatise on the usefulness of examining in detail the spectacularly obvious.

              Sometimes an attention-grabbing headline is just an attention grabbing headline... n'est-ce-pas?

              But, gosh Ray... At least you're "worth attending to", right?

              Y'lucky devil.

              Money speaks for money, the devil for his own... Who comes to speak for the skin and the bone?

              by LeftOverAmerica on Fri Sep 27, 2013 at 07:29:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  consumer rights (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenbastard

          -You want to change the system, run for office.

          by Deep Texan on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:07:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  That's simply not so. (9+ / 0-)

          U.S. regulatory agencies were set up mostly in the aftermath of catastrophes and mass fatalities that shocked the nation.

          The Food and Drug Administration's predecessor was established in the aftermath of mass poisonings from toxic unregulated medicines, and the scandal of adulterated or rotten food uncovered by Progressive-era muckrakers like Upton Sinclair.

          Workplace safety was only regulated after the horrific Triangle Shirtwaist fire. Mine safety only after endless mining catastrophes.

          The FDA was despicably altered in its mission by making its funding contingent on the very industry it is supposed to regulate, but this occurred long after its establishment.

          The only agency meeting your revisionist view that comes to mind is the FAA, tasked with boosterism for aviation as well as safety, with the result that passengers have died due to the failure to intervene in cost-cutting abuses b y the industry.

        •  Corporations are People in our system. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lunachickie, AoT, Agathena

          Not only People, but privileged people, who, even without a vote, decide almost all political outcomes.

          The banks that went out have been eaten by bigger banks. Because we not only have corporate rule, we have corporate concentration of wealth and power.

          And if you want silly, conflating marriage to Monsanto would be the perfect example. Just because they have a piece of paper in common doesn't make them the same thing.


          Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

          by Jim P on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:17:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Corporations are a legal entity (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agathena

      Not just a bunch of people getting together and doing stuff.  They are in fact a form of regulation, not just the subject of regulation. And the modern corporation is objectively a bad thing. The current form was created as a means to minimize risk and accountability of those wealthy people funding colonialism. It allows investors to wash their hands of any wrong doing on the part of the corporations while still profiting from. Similar to "Just doing their job" as an excuse for employees the investors are "Just investing money" as if there could be no negative effects of that.

      •  Well, it also limits investor risk (4+ / 0-)

        in the event of corporate bankruptcy. Not as compelling, but just as true. That's why we incorporated- Not about wrongdoing, but about personal exposure to potential financial risk- ie, I wanna keep my house if we lose the biz.

        •  I understand the common use (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador, RiveroftheWest

          for a lot of smaller businesses. But the fact is that it really is protection for larger groups in more than just a financial sense. Because these giant corporations are so massive we all have to desperately scramble to not lose the roof over our head. It's essentially extortion. If we don't promise to protect them and make sure they still exist then they'll destroy us all.

    •  The power of the corporation can be easily broken (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Agathena, Dianna, AoT, RiveroftheWest

      Just revoke the limited liability law.

      None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

      by gjohnsit on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:20:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks for the hope. I'll be in touch. eom (11+ / 0-)

    If there is no accountability for those who authorized torture, we can no longer say that we are a nation of laws, not men.

    by MikePhoenix on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:21:05 AM PDT

    •  Hope is our most powerful tool (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dianna

      Pessimism and cynicism is the most powerful tool of the status quo.

      None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

      by gjohnsit on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:23:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  isn't it possible that this is highly regional (10+ / 0-)

    i mean, i've lived in both florida and north carolina, as well as a few plains states, and there sure is not current hope of changing the status quo in these places.  the US is a pretty big country, lets not forget that there are plenty of red states here.

    •  from what I've seen written here about NC, there (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Agathena, highacidity, Dianna, nathanfl

      is a lot of hope there.  Moral Mondays (which have now morphed into other activities while the legislature is out) and what is going on at various Boards of Election certainly give me hope.  And that is just what we see here.

      I don't know much about what is exactly going on around the country, but I can't help but agree that the American people are reaching a boiling point!

      "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

      by MRA NY on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 09:10:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hope for what? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        highacidity, Hey338Too, nathanfl, MRA NY

        I can see hope in NC for a pendulum swing away from RW extremst policies. I don't see hope for "revolution and an end to the corporate state" - and doubt that is something to be hoped for anyway.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:29:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  lotsa conservatives here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MRA NY

        i think they have buyer's remorse ... but still would rather put in an R while reaping all of the benefits that decades of D leadership has given to them.

        either way, we will see where things stand come election day.

  •  Brother Ray (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, BlueMississippi

    I'll pledge $3 to Kos at your request, that's a fine idea, as soon as I can figure out how.

    “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    by 6412093 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:34:45 AM PDT

  •  Even if you go down... (13+ / 0-)

    ....go down in a way you can be proud of, fighting for social and economic justice.

  •  a social justice movement in Oakland? (10+ / 0-)

    Dimes meet dozens.

    I'm sorry, Ray, but there's no movement coming. Not while the right wing is crazy and the Democratic party is left to be both pro worker and pro Wall Street.  

    Bi polar politics, It's the Future!

     

    I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

    by jbou on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:42:30 AM PDT

  •  Not happening in Tennessee either (15+ / 0-)

    One thing that some of the social justice theories or approaches offered by your diaries Ray have not really addressed is how to confront or convince those who who are not on board. They don't listen to logical or evidence.

    It is one thing to preach to people who agree but aren't sure how to get going, and quite another to those who actively hold a different work view.

    As soon as I can geet a few things accomplished, I am just going to leave. The redstates aare not going to change, maybe one or two of them will get a purple tingle but not enough to support the kind of agenda you are interested in.

    •  You don't need everyone (13+ / 0-)

      The key may be actually getting all of us who do agree to quit looking down our noses at the activists and telling them why they're going to fail, and actually get off our asses and do something.

      I would guess that the majority of people who understand the nature of the corporate plutocracy are for various reasons not actually doing anything about it.

      I think most people probably recognize on some level a) the banks are fucking them over and b) the government is not responding to their needs

      "Today is who you are" - my wife

      by I Lurked For Years on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 05:59:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I never looked down my (5+ / 0-)

        nose at activists to begin with, I have participated in local events in the city near me. My experience has always been that the local activist/social justice people are not very friendly  and rarely acknowledge new people and do not do good outreach and the turn out is low for protest activities on a consistent basis. So I have at various points in my life gotten off my ass to do something and I will again, just not in my local area where I live now.

        I think your premise is reasonable and accurate. But I also know what it is like to live in a hard core red state. Ray lives in Cali a lovely place or when I visited it was, so he is looking at it from the perspective of a state that is largely amenable to liberal critique and activism even when the state legislature is vaguely conservative it is still waaaaaaay the hell more liberal than Tennessee.

      •  A large part of the problem is that the Right (5+ / 0-)

        lies about economics and finance, and the Left considers it too dirty to get involved with and learn about. Then we do not understand our enemy properly, in order to counter its maneuvers effectively.

        Real economics is on our side. See Krugman, Stiglitz, Galbraith (father and son), and others. However, it is difficult to wade through conventional economics textbooks and separate the wheat from the chaff. Almost everything in the early those textbooks is based on faulty and unstated assumptions that do not apply in most real cases. It is not until you get to the concepts of externalities and market failures that it begins to come together.

        Also, most of what passes for economics in political discussions depends even more on faulty or outright false assumptions, and we do not have a mechanism for helping the public to understand this. It is much worse than Global Warming Denialism.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 09:12:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks, I Lurked. (4+ / 0-)

        One really crap thing that has happened is that people even retroactively define activists' successes as failures. Occupy, for example, the most successful protest I've ever been part of, is now characterized as a failed movement because it didn't succeed in throwing all the Wall St lobbyists out of DC and re-establishing representative government for all (in six months or so). It's like saying the Freedom Riders were unsuccessful because their actions didn't result in the immediate jailing of everyone in the South who'd ever committed a racist act.

        I blame it on the way we teach history. We act like, for instance, Martin Luther King had a great idea, called together a million of his closest friends, walked to Washington and gave a great speech, and BAM! no more racism!  The fact that the movement had been building since the 40s has been completely lost. The work of making movements has been completely erased. And of course, the corporate media is thrilled to be able to encourage a kind of sneering cynicism directed at anything that looks like a resistance movement or the beginnings of one.

        It's too bad so many here jump on that bandwagon. It's a kind of cheap way to get an ego-boost:  Hey, I'm not as naive and stupid as those crappy hippies in the park!

        I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:03:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There's truth to your critique of some on (6+ / 0-)

          this site. However, there are some real disagreements about how one builds a social movement at play as well.

          It's a mistake to lump all critics of a particular analysis/strategy together with those who are cynical or opposed to such a movement on principle. Doing so results in a polarization that precludes realistic self criticism and correction.

          After all, it's difficult to recognize our errors if we dismiss our critics out of hand.

          Nothing human is alien to me.

          by WB Reeves on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:02:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's true. But a lot of the criticism sure seems (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WB Reeves, AoT

            to be coming from a hippie-punching kind of place.

            And some of it seems to be mainly annoyed that Occupy wasn't OFA. Well, we already have an OFA, right? Occupy was doing something else.

            I have some criticisms of Occupy myself. I bet everybody who was involved with it does. And if I seem like I'm lumping everybody who has criticisms together, I apologize (if I did that, I'd have to lump myself in there too.)

            I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:51:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Most of our progress does not happen (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6412093, Deep Texan, AoT

      by conversion. Most of it is the old dying off and being replaced by young people with a very different experience of the world.

      The rest, however, is mobilizing those who agree on the issues to get out there and do something about them. Vote, at the very least. Hence Battleground Texas and the like. Unionize, if at all possible. Pick an issue and fight for it.

      Above all, do not believe the Right when it tells you that you are helpless. See psychologist Martin Segiman on Learned Helplessness, and how to unlearn it.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 09:03:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exception (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT

        I don't think this "truism" can be applied to either the New Deal era or the Civil Rights revolution.

        It certainly doesn't apply to the abolition of slavery, unless "dying off" is the same as "killing off."

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:06:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Occupy Tuscaloosa? Occupy Tallahassee? (7+ / 0-)

      Occupy Boise? Occupy Homer, Alaska? Occupy Jackson, Mississippi?

      Those occupations weren't created by some top-down liberal org "changing" people in flyover country. Folks in those locations decided on their own to join that protest.

      Admittedly given the current crap state of our political discourse and ability to gain political knowledge (our journalism's in the crapper and our academic study of politics ain't far behind as far as I can see) it's difficult to get at anything like the truth. But I guarantee you that the reason the establishment didn't like Occupy was not because there were large demonstrations in NYC, LA, and Oakland (no offense to any of the people working in those locales intended). It was because of Occupy Boise. Occupy Kansas City, Missouri.  Occupy Cedar Rapids. Occupy Columbus, Occupy Cleveland, Occupy Sioux Falls.

      You are wrong about flyover country. Not because there aren't some deep-seated and entrenched conservative views. But because you don't need to turn people into liberals to get them involved in a movement for economic justice and representative government.

      They don't have to "change," at least not much. The only thing that really needs to change is their kneejerk scapegoating of whoever the right throws at them as the villain du jour.

      I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 09:54:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't forget about us feminist activists... (10+ / 0-)

    or us other than white activists...

    or us homeless activists...

    or us religious harmony activists.

    Seems like a decent idea, even a really good one.  Your last paragraph on the call for action, however, just didn't ring a bell in my own very particular areas of intense activity in promoting social justice.

    Peace and solidarity.

  •  Seriously? (11+ / 0-)
    Imagine LGBTQ activists, and environmental activists, and housing, immigration, activists making a point to take some sort of high-visibility action on the 15th of every month!
    And if it works, overwhelming any media coverage that might have happened with an avalanche of events, none of which will be highlighted to any extent. It would be media coverage you're after with this, wouldn't it? From that same media that you decry as corrupt and totally under the control of the corporations you want to bring down?

    Are these supposed to be instead of normal activity, or in addition to it? If instead of, best of luck trying to convince organizations that their carefully targeted activity should be subordinate to yours; if in addition, you're going to have to do a pretty good job convincing them that it isn't a diversion of resources.

    I can't quite decide whether you're assuming that other competent organizations can't be doing much of a job, since the system is still broken, or that they'd be able to do a much better job if they simply accepted your basic premises. Even though you reference other movements, other organizations, your point seems to be that they would be coordinating with your movement, rather than vice versa. It strikes me as monumental hubris.

    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

    by serendipityisabitch on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 01:49:09 AM PDT

  •  I'd rather have a Hillary Clinton presidency. (6+ / 0-)

    But that just shows my cognitive and ethical limitations.

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 03:41:34 AM PDT

  •  Things will move, I agree, but in what form? (17+ / 0-)

    It may not be in the sweetness and light you refer, although, I hope you are right.  My concern is this:  it is an evil portent to deny food to poor people and then give huge subsidies to rich farmers.  This act of brutality will come back at us with God only knows what, because threatened people via food become unpredictable and those who must endure their misery may also take matters in a direction that can not be forseen now.  I live near Harvard Square and there are always people there in dire straits, but now there are more than ever and they look more forlorn and more dirty than ever while there are many disabled people, too.  Their desperation is like nothing I have observed before.  It is the state of their beings that concern me and what this means for social functioning, justice and change.  Ray, a new activism can't come fast enough for them or for me.

    •  "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible..." (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      6412093

      You know the rest. We all should.

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:19:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is a curiosity of our times (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HudsonValleyMark, 6412093, Deep Texan

      that current Republicans have forgotten that Food Stamps were originally designed as an agricultural subsidy.

      It is equally curious that those who malign the 47%, the actual Makers who actually make stuff but do not pay income tax, cannot see that the solution is to pay them enough so they don't need welfare, and do pay income tax. Even Milton Friedman and Richard Nixon thought that ending poverty was a good idea, once upon a time, but their solution was a negative income tax for the poor, not a jobs program and a living wage.

      Well, nobody has accused Republicans of having the sense that the FSM gave noodles.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 09:19:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's the problem with destroying the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie, WB Reeves

      possibility for reform.

      If we can prevent it from becoming violent, we really need to, because the opposition is quite prepared for violence. In fact, it would probably advance their agenda. Think how many things they could justify with the excuse of dangerous mass uprisings.

      I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:08:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks nt (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Smoh, Ray Pensador, Dianna, Gowrie Gal

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 04:53:17 AM PDT

  •  Hi, Ray! (5+ / 0-)

    Busy summer, but I did get to the 50th March on Washington.  I fall back on my beloved Henry David Thoreau:

      "My life has been the poem I would have writ,
     But I could not both live and utter it. "

    "MY life is the blog diary I would have writ, if only I could live, and still have the time to diary about it!"

    I always read you, even if I only have a few minutes.  Thanks for being you.

    "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

    by NancyWH on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 05:32:17 AM PDT

  •  well I hate that it bears repeating, but there's (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soarbird, ozsea1, mkor7

    no peace, hope & love movement going on in our area. Here's what my 25-year-old said.

    "Aw, Mom- don't you see it's already hopeless and the revolution is going to come, complete with pitchforks and guns? It's all about money and power but 'they' are going to turn it into a race war."

    We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

    by nuclear winter solstice on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 06:23:52 AM PDT

  •  Sorry, nice dream, but I don't see it (5+ / 0-)

    Most Americans, IMO, no matter how much they rail about big guvmint and greedy corporations, LIKE having their biggest needs taken care of by both, so they can focus on what they really care about, like watching TV, getting drunk, shooting something and going away for the weekend--and griping, perhaps the true national pastime, i.e. complaining about shit they have absolutely no intention of actually doing something about, so they can earn their fake "I'm not a sucker, I'm a rugged individualist" cred, even though most are, in fact, suckers, not rugged individualists, being at the mercy of big guvmint and greedy corporations and having no intention of doing anything about it.

    We may not be that comfortable anymore, but we're still numb.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 07:30:37 AM PDT

    •  agreed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hey338Too, virginislandsguy
      like watching TV, getting drunk
      complaining about shit they have absolutely no intention of actually doing something about
      What was the number 1 show recently? Duck Dynasty?

      -You want to change the system, run for office.

      by Deep Texan on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:12:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And what is Markos' true money maker? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan

        SBNation, aka the opiate of the male masses.

        Any money that gets thrown his way on 10/15 will be peanuts in comparison.

        There was only one joker in L.A. sensitive enough to wear that scent...and I had to find out who he was!

        by virginislandsguy on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:33:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  We're hopelessly addicted to mindless (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dianna, Deep Texan

        distractions--when we're not working our asses off making ends meet (or in all too many cases paying for our entertainment and distraction-based lifestyles with expensive cars, houses, electronics and food we don't really need). This is of course by design, as these distractions not only make the corporations that provide them immensely rich, but they keep our minds off of the problems that we seek to escape from via them. It's as close to being a perfect crime as is legally possible, slavery with bread and circuses thrown in.

        I don't necessarily think it's terminal, but if we ever do break out of this mode, it's going to take years and a lot more pain. We're nowhere near having hit rock bottom as a society, in terms of the addiction model. Way too many people still in denial or stuck in anger or depression mode.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 09:40:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I rec this because it's unfortunately true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie

      You describe much of my family and people around me.  Yet people know something is wrong, and I believe the truth is sinking in slowly, and the change is coming here sooner or later.  

      I remember during the Iraq war way North on a lonely rural highway (catching the traffic to a local town) there was a lone white haired hippy in a tie dyed shirt holding a protest sign in sun, on a chilly sunny day.   It was such a beautiful sight.  It made a deep impression on me and I'm sure a lot of others, even read staters, it might sink in many years later.

      I make it a point to talk to my family and make sure they know what I think.  I be careful with the red staters who are deep in their own reality and mind controlled by Fox News, but people they know things aren't right too

    •  Numb is what happens when people see no (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      serendipityisabitch, lunachickie

      feasible alternative.

      Reform is harder than explosive violent uprising. People have to believe that there's a chance for the reforms to get instituted and to work in order to give their time and energy to a reform movement. In other words, in order to get the numbers to be thought credible, a movement has to already be thought credible. It has to look successful before it can motivate the numbers of people that would make it look successful. It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing.

       Whereas all it takes for a violent explosion is for a sufficient number of people to have been sufficiently hungry for sufficiently long. Ask Syria.

      So, the point is not that the sweetness and light revolution is inevitable. The point is that if people don't work hard and work smart on building an effective reform movement, things are not only going to get very much worse, but at some point the American people will snap. And rather than just killing themselves in record numbers they'll start burning down their cities

      I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:18:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the "people" (8+ / 0-)

    by and large want to things:
    1.  A job that will allow them to raise a family in reasonable safety and confirm.
    2. Beyond that to largely left alone.

    The left of the 30's and 40's got this.  Since then it  hasn't.  People don't want a revolution.  

    They want a job.

    And there, as they say, is the rub.

    •  Isn't that something. Once the depravity of the (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dianna, ozsea1, lunachickie, Joieau

      system has reached a certain level, those are the very things people will be without: jobs and economic security.

      At that stage, only (peaceful) revolutionary change can restore normalcy, i.e., remove the criminal elements that have taken over the levers of power.

      •  The core (4+ / 0-)

        issues are automation and globalization, with the results that the fruits of people's labor are going more to capital than to labor.  As a result, there is not enough demand to generate job growth.  The crisis is systemic, and the solutions most frequently discussed are not close to the scale of the problem

        But the problem is also immensely complicated.

        The opportunity is to provide a credible solution to what the public wants - that means talking about jobs and incomes.  

      •  My 23-year old grandson (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador, Dianna, RiveroftheWest

        told me just yesterday that if Sam Adams and the gang spun themselves out of their graves to see what we've got, they'd be demanding to know why we haven't had some kind of revolution every generation or two all along. We're way, way overdue.

    •  Status quo relies upon this mentality, hence... (5+ / 0-)

      ...the popularity of "reality TV," which is anything but.

      And, "the people" are...albeit very, very slowly...getting wise to these greater truths (perhaps, too late, but better late than never).

      That being said, the latest Pew Poll (which, btw, flies in the face of all of those touting "happy news" about the "recovery" of [the top income-earners, only] our abysmal economy) would confirm the small portion of your typical observations regarding same (those few sentiments held by the status quo which don't fly in the face of attitudes on Main Street).

      In other words: the status quo is to the point where their ongoing lack of concern regarding public sentiment is (i.e.: the public IS becoming aware that we're living in a period of record-breaking income inequality, despite what those in the status quo that continue to hold onto those outdated political beliefs regarding public sentiment), already, biting them in the ass; and, that's going to become more severe, not less, in the not too distant future...despite those folks in the status quo that keep thinking the stock market is all that matters to the average person.

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:21:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  when? (0+ / 0-)

    how many days we talking about here?

    give us a number.

    -You want to change the system, run for office.

    by Deep Texan on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:04:58 AM PDT

  •  all of this could be a lot easier and sooner (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    3rock, lunachickie, AoT

    much of it's been around for decades.

    most will be too slow, especially relative the parts that require legislation or action by congress, until the left stops giving a free speech free ride to those carnival barkers the think tank-controlled  talk radio monopoly puts on every corner and stump in the country.

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:10:09 AM PDT

    •  Appreciated (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie, AoT, certainot

          The other day Ray did a very interesting diary on le "TV"
          Just as important in the mindwash is le radio. It's so amazing to me because I'm into music (obsessively :) how simple the takeover was. I can still remember when "DO no evil, {we just advertise it} googly" taught the radio stations now all OWNED, how to coordinate their commercials. I.e. the before & after, to the now, change EVERY station & ALL ON commercials. At which point I turn the radio OFF. In learning (thanks googly) these OWNED stations (I heart a CLEAR mind, praise be to the tuna) learned how to REALLY effect mood to those stuck in traffic or doing a long haul, wondering directions or NEWS, NEWS, NEWS.
          It's a very minor issue to the new gens because of new tech but the analogy put in recent news is Somalia's countryside is controlled by the religionists while their cities are not.
          It is important to liberate the countryside of their mindwashed moods.
          So I sooo appreciate that  certainot  is keeping the issue visible.
          The simplicity of the simplicity of the takeover was they "abolishingly bought" anti-trust.
          postscript: noticed someone didn't diary for a day. I thought "Oh god if Ray's bailed…" to someone

      March AGAINST monsatanOHagentorange 3/25/13 a time warp

      by 3rock on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:22:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I see what you're seeing and I live in a red state (5+ / 0-)

    Ray, thanks for writing this. I do see what you're seeing and I live in Central Indiana.

    It will be deeply ironic if the policies and structures put in place by the oligarchy to control society end up instigating the wide-ranging social innovations that are beginning to emerge in response.

    "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

    by annan on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 08:17:44 AM PDT

  •  It will all boil down to (0+ / 0-)

    how climate catastrophe plays out.  Climate-wise, the die has already been cast.  We humans sure do overrate ourselves.  Feeling good about ourselves seems to be one of our most basic needs.

  •  The October 15th movement sounds similar (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Deep Texan, Joieau

    to Moral Mondays.

  •  Comrade Ray (0+ / 0-)

    how will we recognize each other after the revolution?   I'm thinking maybe little red berets and red t -shirts like in Venezuela.  By the way have you checked out the economy and quality of life in that place lately?

  •  I hoping we can support picket lines (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lunachickie, Deep Texan, Hey338Too

    on one of those 15ths.

    I'll be there, by my lonesome, if necessary, not for the first time.

    I work in lots of red states and live in a blue state, and I don't see anything measurable happening.

    However, I'll get up every morning and push a little harder.

    “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    by 6412093 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:02:51 AM PDT

  •  Marxian fantasies (4+ / 0-)

    I wonder how many members of the DKos community work for the "sadistic brutal corporations" the diarist rails against.

    And how many more of us have retirement funds that depend on the very success of these fascist enterprises for our long-term security.

    The opposite of "good" is "good intention" - Kurt Tucholsky

    by DowneastDem on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:14:37 AM PDT

    •  Capitalist fantasy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie, Ray Pensador, Dianna
      And how many more of us have retirement funds that depend on the very success of these fascist enterprises for our long-term security.
      Those jobs and pensions can, and have, massively disappeared without notice.

      So... long term security? Now that's a fantasy. With corporate hegemony becoming complete, they tend to extract more and more wealth from the 99% just because they can. Things are going to get worse and worse.

      And there are other forms of socialism besides Marxism, by the way.

      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

      by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:21:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What are your fantasies? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie, Dianna, ZhenRen

      That corporations are run by people like good ol' Henry Ford who wants to pay his employees well so that they can buy his products?

      As for the retirement funds, maybe you haven't noticed, but a lot of companies aren't real keen on funding those anymore:

      The stock market’s poor performance has also convinced some companies that they no longer want to take the risk of guaranteeing pension payments. Many have closed their pension plans to newer employees and stopped accruing benefits for workers already in them. Instead, they have pushed employees into defined-contribution plans, in which the worker, not the employer, bears the risk of poor investment performance.
      Pension plans underfunded

      And then there's these corporations, and those who work for them, whom you may have forgotten:

      McDonald's budget

      I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 10:33:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Pensions? That would be the older people (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador, Dianna, WB Reeves

      Who the hell has a pension or retirement fund now? You live in a different world than the majority of us. Most people can't afford that. Just because you're comfortable doesn't mean we all are.

      •  Retirement funds are not just pensions (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hey338Too

        IRA's or 401k's or other investments are part of many people's retirement funds.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:40:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's why I differentiated them (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador, ZhenRen

          "Who the hell has a pension or retirement fund now?"

          Obviously no one really has pensions anymore these days. Certainly not people who are younger than 35 or 40. At least I don't know anyone who does except some teachers. And that's going away soon I'm sure. The number of people without retirement savings, or with insignificant savings, has consistently risen over the years.

          This whole "you're a marxist because people have retirement savings." Is out of touch with reality.

        •  People who lose their jobs often... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, Ray Pensador

          lose their retirement funds, and in times of scarcity, people may convert IRAs into cash, despite tax penalties. I had to do this to avoid becoming homeless.

          There is no long term security when funds are held in the form of stocks, mutual funds, etc. During the great recession, many of these portfolios lost a great percentage of value.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 01:04:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You might want to think twice about revealing The (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    serendipityisabitch

    Plan that will save the world.

    Aren't you worried you'll be held responsible if the world isn't saved?

    -7.75,-6.41 Time keeps on ticking, ticking, ticking...

    by owlbear1 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:04:51 AM PDT

  •  Cooperative Commonwealth (5+ / 0-)

    Over the last year due to my studies in the history of populism, Coxey's Army, and my experiences with cooperatives, collectives, and voluntary associations, I've reached the opinion that the only practical alternative to the corporate state is a cooperative commonwealth.  Unfortunately, in US history, the corporate power structure has always intervened when cooperatives got big enough to threaten the existing structures.  Whether we have the tools and the will to pass that barrier now or in the near future is debatable but it's the debate we need to have.

  •  More and more people that are paying attention (4+ / 0-)

    are coming around to the truth.

      The problem is that so few people are paying attention.

    The good news is that you don't need everyone to be on board. In fact to make real changes you only need 10-20% of the populace.

    None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free. The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies. -Johann von Goethe

    by gjohnsit on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:12:17 AM PDT

    •  The actual number is 5%. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dianna
      •  Oh? (6+ / 0-)
        Scientists at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute have found that when just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society.
        "When the number of committed opinion holders is below 10 percent, there is no visible progress in the spread of ideas. It would literally take the amount of time comparable to the age of the universe for this size group to reach the majority,”
        http://news.rpi.edu/...

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 12:16:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The idea that 5%, or even 10% (3+ / 0-)

        of the population can or should reorder society to suit itself is a dangerous, not to mention elitist, notion.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 01:42:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Except that the false dichotomy you present (0+ / 0-)

          doesn't make any sense.

          Here's what really happens in the real world:

          History Teaches That We Have the Power to Transform the Nation, Here's How.
          Indeed, Mark Lichbach, a professor of government and politics, has written in The Rebel’s Dilemma, that when more than 5 percent of the population engages in sustained, coordinated civil disobedience, few governments can remain in power whether they are a dictatorship or a democracy. The path to reaching this 5 percent begins when people who are already active in resistance build solidarity and draw more people to the movement. As more people see the movement growing and that there is a strategy to win, they will have the confidence to join it. Achieving the 5 percent tipping point with a diverse cross-section of society then becomes well within reach.
          And here's what leads to that condition:
          The goal is to build a mass movement that seeks transformational change. The issue of our era is the rule of money by concentrated corporate interests, the “looting class,” who put their profits ahead of the necessities of the people and the protection of the planet. People in the United States already support this agenda for change; the movement needs to be clear that we embrace it and know how to achieve it.
          You see, the conditions that pushes up to 5 percent of the population to rise up on opposition and resistance is oppression from the "looting class."

          Turning this fact around and claiming the contrary is a logical fallacy.

          •  It's not a logical fallacy (7+ / 0-)

            It may be wrong, but it isn't a logical fallacy.

            •  I'm beginning to think that Ray either doesn't (3+ / 0-)

              know or doesn't care what a logical fallacy is. It seems, more and more, that it's just a word he likes to hurl at people who disagree with him.

              Nothing human is alien to me.

              by WB Reeves on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 03:32:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yes it is. Here is the definition and examples: (0+ / 0-)
              Formal Fallacies
              In philosophy, a formal fallacy is a pattern of reasoning that is always wrong. This is due to a flaw in the logical structure of the argument which renders the argument invalid. A formal fallacy is contrasted with an informal fallacy, which may have a valid logical form, but be false due to the characteristics of its premises, or its justification structure.
              Examples of Logical Fallacy
              The term "logical fallacy" refers to the concept of making an error in terms of reasoning. It is crucial to understand logical fallacies so that they can be identified and avoided when attempting to persuade.
              Saying that if five percent of the population rises up in sustained opposition against the government would mean that they are imposing their will on everybody else, and hence "elitist" is a classic example of a logical fallacy.

              Any other question?

              •  That's a general definition of fallacy (6+ / 0-)

                I know the definition of fallacy, I have a degree in Philosophy it was drilled into me for years. What fallacy exactly are you saying it is? There isn't anything such as a general logical fallacy. You aren't making an argument against it or explaining how it's a logical fallacy, just saying that it is. Where is the logical fallacy?

                •  Here you go, very clearly: (0+ / 0-)

                  The conditions to pushes up to five percent of any given population to rise up in sustained opposition of a government, ruling elite, etc., are generally oppression, corruption, abuse of power.

                  Turning that reality around and claiming that if up to five percent of a given population rises in sustained opposition of a government means that they are imposing their will on the rest of the population, and that those who advocate doing so are "elitists" has exhibits elements of both, a logical fallacy, and ad hominem.

                  If you, with a degree in philosophy, can't see that, there is nothing else I can do.

                  •  Ad hominem is a logical fallacy (6+ / 0-)

                    But that wasn't the basis of what he was saying. I mean, are you saying that 5% of the population has never imposed their will on the general population without general support, because I think a brief survey of history would show that various fascist movements did just that. And by definition is something is possible then it can't be a fallacy.

                    Either way, if you are correct, and I think you are in part if I understand what you're saying, then it still isn't a fallacy, it's just wrong. You can be wrong without being fallacious.

                    •  Let's examine what he actually wrote: (0+ / 0-)
                      The idea that 5%, or even 10% of the population can or should reorder society to suit itself is a dangerous, not to mention elitist, notion.
                      Within the context and intent of the author of this diary (i.e., me), taking in consideration the reference information I used in it, that statement is clearly a logical fallacy.

                      You know why?  Because this diary is not about the imposition of fascism by a tiny group of people.  This diary is about this:

                      The issue of our era is the rule of money by concentrated corporate interests, the “looting class,” who put their profits ahead of the necessities of the people and the protection of the planet. People in the United States already support this agenda for change; the movement needs to be clear that we embrace it and know how to achieve it.
                      That is the condition (which by the way is a truism) that would cause the up to five percent of the population to rise in sustained protest.

                      If you look at the definition(s) of logical fallacies, you will see that this type of faulty reasoning (although I suspect is being done on purpose) meets that definition.

                      Similarly, here's another clear example of a logical fallacy by the same user:

                      What happens if 10% hold an unshakable view, while another 10% hold an opposite unshakable view? What if a third 10% holds an unshakable view incompatible with the first two?

                      Hmm?

                      The logical fallacy there "false equivalency" and again, faulty reasoning... It presents the situation as just different segment of the population disagreeing about a particular world view, all of which have equal value.

                      Here's the thing... As I've written many times before, just like anybody else I can turn out to be wrong about any of my arguments and conclusions.  But be that as it may, I never ever make any argument without having thought about it very, very, carefully, and thus I'm always ready to back it up--because I thought about it first.

                      •  Sorry, those aren't fallacies (8+ / 0-)

                        They're things you disagree with. The second one is a question, which rarely can be a logical fallacy. Just because people disagree with you doesn't make it a logical fallacy.

                        That is the condition (which by the way is a truism) that would cause the up to five percent of the population to rise in sustained protest.
                        That is not a truism. That's a claim. Disagreement isn't a fallacy no matter how many times you say it is.
                        The logical fallacy there "false equivalency" and again, faulty reasoning
                        "Faulty Reasoning" isn't a logical fallacy. Logical fallacies are a form of faulty reasoning. And this is refering to a question, which rarely can be a logical fallacy. He didn't make any equivalency, he only asked what would happen in a specific situation. Since that situation isn't impossible it's a valid question.

                        You're using a tortured form of "logic" to shut down people who disagree with you at this point and while I generally agree with you there are some things that I won't stand, this is one of them. The abuse and misuse of logic is unacceptable to me, especially in the pursuit of good ends. It perverts the means and the ends. It's basically misleading people and is itself a fallacy, specifically an appeal to authority, false authority in this case.

                        •  First, let's step back from the faux outrage about (0+ / 0-)

                          what you would stand for or not, since I really could care less.  It really doesn't register in my list of concerns.

                          Now, getting back to the argument at hand... Let me try to use logic and reason one more time:

                          From what I've been able to glean about your views, I think you may agree that this statement is true:

                          The issue of our era is the rule of money by concentrated corporate interests, the “looting class,” who put their profits ahead of the necessities of the people and the protection of the planet. People in the United States already support this agenda for change; the movement needs to be clear that we embrace it and know how to achieve it.
                          Either way, assuming you agree with that or not (as being a truism), let's for the sake of this argument assume it is true...

                          If so, and we stay within the realm of philosophy, and add the concept of morality, right and wrong, etc.

                          If that condition is true, then claiming that 10% of people against that tyranny and oppression stand in equivalency with 10% of people who support that condition is a clear example of false equivalency.

                          Regarding the argument about the 5% imposing their will on the rest of the population as a logical fallacy, I already presented it and stand by it 100 percent.

                          So I think you are wrong.

                          Now, being humble enough to know that I have no more authority to impose my argument on you, than you on me, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, and that's that.

                          I would not presume to claim to be outraged and that I would not stand for this or that, since that would be hubristic.

          •  It's your dichotomy, not mine (5+ / 0-)

            Neither your comment, nor the one you were replying to, drew this distinction. It doesn't appear in your diary either. Your after the fact clarification doesn't render my comment retroactively a "logical fallacy", no matter how much you wish to misapply that label.

            The fact is I turned nothing "on its head". I simply took you at your word. If you meant %5 engaged in direct action backed by a far larger mass movement, you really should have said so.

            Why you feel entitled to blame others for not taking into account info you yourself neglected to provide is mystery. It's your responsibility to make your meaning clear. It's no one's responsibility to read your mind.

            Moreover, it shouldn't be necessary to point out that the fact Prof. Lichbach has written something doesn't necessarily make it so.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 03:46:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I'll be filing this with the GOP obituary diaries (0+ / 0-)

    under wishful thinking.

    I'm no philosopher, I am no poet, I'm just trying to help you out - Gomez (from the song Hamoa Beach)

    by jhecht on Thu Sep 26, 2013 at 11:34:31 AM PDT

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