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conversation with Robert Costa via twitter
More from Robert Costa on the direction the GOP is moving:
“It’s the return of the grand bargain,” says one House Republican, who requested anonymity to speak freely. “There weren’t a lot of specifics discussed, and the meetings were mostly about just checking in. But he’s looking hard at the debt limit as a place where we can do something big.” ...

Per sources, entitlement reforms, such as chained CPI, an elimination of the medical-device tax, and delays to parts of Obamacare are all on the table as trades for delaying aspects of sequestration and extending the debt limit.

I suspect what @robertcostaNRO's sources call a "debt bargain" is more unilateral Dem concessions in return for debt ceiling.
@jonathanchait
Paul Ryan played a crucial role killing the grand bargain three separate times http://t.co/... Skeptical he wants a Grand Bargain now
@jonathanchait
Leadership in corner. As aide explains, anything that that raises debt limit and funds gov't has to be couched as "big good deal" for Rs
@robertcostaNRO
Talked to several D aides. All dismissed idea of grand bargain. Might be they're out of the loop. But also evident of how small talks are
@samsteinhp
Suzy Khimm:
Republicans think Obamacare is so destructive that they watched the government shut down when Democrats refused to change the law.

But two days later something strange has happened: Republicans aren’t coming up with new ways to try to dismantle or delay it.

Instead, they’re pushing dead-end mini bills that would fund popular parts of the government that President Barack Obama has promised to veto.
So as the shutdown drags on and Obamacare falls off the negotiating table, it’s left Republicans struggling to answer a basic question: What’s the fight even about?

More politics and policy below the fold.

Ross Douthat on what's bugging conservatives (shorter answer is losing all the time):

“They didn’t dare,” Frum wrote of the Intransigents’ Reagan-era predecessors, “and they realized that they didn’t dare.” Well, this time, no matter the risks and costs and polls, there are small-government conservatives who intend to dare — because only through a kind of wild daring, they believe, can the long-term, post-New Deal disadvantage that the cause of limited government labors under finally be overcome.

And if this attitude sounds more like a foolish romanticism than a prudent, responsible, grounded-in-reality conservatism — well, yes, unfortunately I think it pretty clearly is.

people who think conservatives genuinely want"smaller government"as anything other than an abstract+cutting things they don't like are silly
@Atrios
Jennifer Rubin on why the Dems should throw the Rs a bone:
Sometimes, unions overreach. They raise their members’ expectations about what can be obtained. They can’t get what they want at the bargaining table, and they are boxed in, almost forced to take their members out on strike. After that, the chief negotiator turns to his group to ask, “So what can we give them to get them back?”
Shutdown from the POV of public health labs:
Public health is a local, state and federal continuum where all parts work together to ensure we have a healthy American populace. The public health system can’t work very well – or, I should say, doesn’t work very well – when one part of the system simply isn’t engaged. That’s the situation we face today on the second day of the federal government shutdown. Local public health is still hard at work, state public health is still hard at work, but the federal portion of public health is minimally staffed. If the local or state systems need technical assistance or laboratory support, they are largely on their own.

The federal portion of the continuum is essential.  In some ways you can think of it as the glue that holds the system together.  Public health laboratories and epidemiologists are busy tracking down disease outbreaks all the time. They do a great job in their local or state jurisdictions detecting diseases and other pathogens that can harm us. But it is the role of the federal government – the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), in this case – to come up with a national picture of disease outbreaks. It’s the job of the CDC to knit together the mystery of how outbreaks unfold across the country, all with the goal of stopping them as soon as possible so that lives can be saved.

Ezra Klein interviewing Grover Norquist:
The only confusion that comes out is that Cruz stood on the side and confused people about the fact that every Republican agrees. He said if you don’t agree with my tactic and with the specific structure of my idea, you’re bad. He said if the House would simply pass the bill with defunding he would force the Senate to act. He would lead this grass-roots movement that would get Democrats to change their mind. So the House passed it, it went to the Senate, and Ted Cruz said, oh, we don’t have the votes over here. And I can’t find the e-mails or ads targeting Democrats to support it. Cruz said he would deliver the votes and he didn’t deliver any Democratic votes. He pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away.
Love the headline from National Journal:
Americans Think GOP's Top Priority Is Troublemaking
Jay Rosen:
What unites these treatments is the eagerness to blame both sides and the stubborn refusal to acknowledge any asymmetry in the responsibility for the current stalemate in Washington. The emphasis is on things like “the inability to come together to do the right thing” and other hyper-symmetrical images like the “shutdown blame game” and “finger-pointing between Democrats and Republicans.” To the journalists who author these tendentious phrases, it is self-evident that both sides are equally responsible.

That is the production of innocence at work. What the journalists involved fail to acknowledge is their own investment in a permanent and unyielding image of political symmetry.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Yeah, well ask the air traffic controllers how (28+ / 0-)

      their god Ronnie dealt with the "raised expectations" that got them boxed in.  

      I hope President Obama gives them just as much as Reagan gave that union.

      Metaphors be with you.

      by koosah on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:50:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The essential fact about Reagan breaking (0+ / 0-)

        the air traffic controllers union is that it became the impetus to create an even stronger union, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, only a few years later, one that was eventually able to get its rights recognized and many of its demands for improved safety and working conditions met, after contentious negotiation, litigation, and political grandstanding by its opponents.

        More people need to know that.

        At the same time, the damage to the public dragged on for years.

        Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (1968): 1981 Strike

        Transportation Secretary Drew Lewis organized for replacements and started contingency plans. By prioritizing and cutting flights severely, and even adopting methods of air traffic management that PATCO had previously lobbied for, the government was initially able to have 50% of flights available.

        On August 5, following the PATCO workers' refusal to return to work, Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order, and banned them from federal service for life. In the wake of the strike and mass firings, the FAA was faced with the task of hiring and training enough controllers to replace those that had been fired, a hard problem to fix as, at the time, it took three years in normal conditions to train a new controller. They were replaced initially with nonparticipating controllers, supervisors, staff personnel, some nonrated personnel, and in some cases by controllers transferred temporarily from other facilities. Some military controllers were also used until replacements could be trained. The FAA had initially claimed that staffing levels would be restored within two years; however, it would take closer to ten years before the overall staffing levels returned to normal.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 01:51:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Her analogy is way off because the unions are (6+ / 0-)

      in a position of weakness historically with regard to business-- they have to give in on something because they ultimately need their jobs.  So Rubin's analogy posits that the Dems are in the weak position to begin with, as though Republicans "owned" the American/national people and means of production, and as though Democrats needed to beg them for something to permit them to keep their jobs.

      This is not the case this time around.

      That's one more thing to add to my long list of small problems. --my son, age 10

      by concernedamerican on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:03:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What she doesn't seem to realize (23+ / 0-)

      is if Dems took the tactics of the union busters she'd be crying FOUL.  

      Dems aren't in the position of the unions, the GOP ironically is.  They're the ones who walked out and demanded more.  Unreasonable demands at that.  Either you give us what we want or we shut the hotel down.  They're the ones who went to Marriott and demanded triple their pay with COL increases every year, stock options, 1 month paid vacation, a permanent free residence in the hotel, a company paid car, free meals and a company paid credit card.  

      The Dems should respond to the GOP the same way that Marriott would.  Maybe next time some tea bagging nut sack of a politician decides to grandstand in from of a war memorial the Dems should surround that idiot with high powered heat lamps.  Maybe Obama should take all their credentials and lock them out of DC.  Hell at this point I'd even advocate hiring scabs to do the work of the GOP.  Only time I'd actually advocate scabs in place of the real workers but seeing as these assholes cant do jack shit right it would be a significant upgrade.

      This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

      by DisNoir36 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:10:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rec'd for your "modest proposal:" (10+ / 0-)
        Hell at this point I'd even advocate hiring scabs to do the work of the GOP.  Only time I'd actually advocate scabs in place of the real workers but seeing as these assholes cant do jack shit right it would be a significant upgrade.
      •  Shutdown is Alec and the corporation's goal. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ohiodem1, RenMin, Bernie68, codairem

        The furlough of Federal employees will be exploited to show how many are expendable,causing massive downsizing of government agencies. The agencies that provide any regulations will be  rendered powerless. This will further cripple the government's ability to provide protection and services for their citizens. Alec and members are able to take their time and keep a low profile because they have all the power and money they need.Their greed and need for power is limitless.This has been their long range goal for the last 40 years. This provides a crucial opportunity for private companies to provide needed services that earlier were funded by taxes and the government and we will now have to pay for. Of course we will still have to also pay taxes.

        Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better,do better. Maya Angelou

        by pipercity1 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:38:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Reduction of fed.employers is" because of deficit" (0+ / 0-)

          Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better,do better. Maya Angelou

          by pipercity1 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 08:08:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Percentage of furloughs for some agencies. (0+ / 0-)

          http://abcnews.go.com/...   These statistics are taken from this article.                                                      
          Department of Education 94%
          Environmental Protection Agency 96.15
          Department of health and human services 52%, CDC and NIH will remain open on a minimal basis. CDC will not be able to lend support for the flu season. Great news for Tamiflu!Food and safety and nutritional activities will not be supported by the Food and Drug Administration.
          Homeland Security 13.5%
          Department of Defense is not given a percentage.
          The probability of some agencies having huge permanent cuts are likely and of course needed because of the deficit. ..that is increasing rapidly because of the shutdown.
          There is a lot more information covered in this article.

          Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better,do better. Maya Angelou

          by pipercity1 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 12:07:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  This is not a negotiation, the R's have nothing to (17+ / 0-)

      offer the Dems in return for Obamacare changes.  Anything the Dems give the Cons will be nothing other than paying a ransom to pass a short term CR.

      "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

      by Auburn Parks on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:22:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dumb! (& dumber?) (34+ / 0-)

    Working backwards from this goal:

    "...looking hard at the debt limit as a place where we can do something big.”
    Republicans' shutting down the government over refusal to vote on a clean continuing resolution was monumentally stupid tactics.

    The only thing stupider would be for Democrats to take their foot off the Republicans' throat and let them come back for another bite at the apple over the debt ceiling.

  •  Morning Joe this morning (37+ / 0-)

    was discussing Obama taking the debt ceiling into his own hands - raising it on his own via the 14th amendment that says our full faith & credit cannot be called into question.  I hope Obama does put that on the table.

    "I'm not a member of an organized political party - I'm a Democrat." Will Rogers

    by newjeffct on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:36:36 AM PDT

    •  Obama will not even put that on the table until (17+ / 0-)

      he absolutely has to which is the very last minute before we go into default.

      If he says it now then what incentive does Republicans have in raising the debt ceiling?  

      Obama would only do that in a crisis if he had to.

      President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

      by Drdemocrat on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:49:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think we're past the point of crisis (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glitterscale, RenMin, codairem

        If these assholes are willing to shut the govt down, what's a debt ceiling to them?  We shut the govt down and Armageddon didn't come as far as they're concerned.

        Obama should invoke the 14th and just be done with these games.  You take that away from them and they have nothing left to bargain with.  Pack it up and go home assholes you lost.

        Problem is Obama won't do that.

        This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

        by DisNoir36 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:13:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Crisis is 11:59 on October 17th (5+ / 0-)

          That is when you use Section 4 of the 14 amendment to raise the debt ceiling.

          President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

          by Drdemocrat on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:19:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Too late (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wintergreen8694, Tommye

            For many people 17 days and 23:59 hours is far too long.  End this nonsense now.  Pull the rug out from under the GOP and watch them deflate like a punctured balloon.

            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

            by DisNoir36 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:29:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry, two separate issues (0+ / 0-)

              Obama could, in this view, deal with the debt ceiling. However, that by itself would not create a budget with any authorization for discretionary spending of any kind, and it would inflame Republican opposition to any form of budget.

              We would like Boehner to fold on the CR within two weeks and allow Democrats plus a few Republicans to vote for it, and with that out of the way address the default issue separately. It is looking increasingly less likely that that would happen.

              Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 02:01:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  And I ask myself why doesn't he? (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          captnkurt, mikejay611, RenMin, codairem

          True it would go to the SCOTUS at that point, but the SCOTUS has been traditionally opposed to putting themselves between the two branches of government.

          But here is what it would do:
          1) All debt ceiling debates would cease because there would be no ceiling. If congress passes a bill that requires payment it has to be paid.
          2) This hinge point of negotiation would be killed. There would be no further negotiations using this issue. Negotiations would be done via the usual budgeting route.

          So why does Obama want to keep this hinge point? Maybe because it keeps congress happy? But what is the real point?

          Hi NSA. I am doing constitutionally protected stuff - like free speech. Too bad you are not!

          by glitterscale on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:57:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  drdemocrat is right (3+ / 0-)

          that is a huge political move and it requires the GOP to make it absolutely necessary. better for everyone if Obama gives them every opportunity to come to their senses. doesn't matter if everyone already knows they won't, if there is time before default Obama needs to use it. in fact, Boehner may already be counting on him doing it. that way he can claim he fought the good fight with his caucus and blame Obama for extraordinary measures.

          •  Well he certainly could announce it as an option (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RenMin

            Hell I doubt the GOP has enough intestinal fortitude between them to actually pull it off anyway.  I'm sure their corporate overlords are telling the not to.  However, all Obama has to do is simply state that the option is there for him to use in case the GOP does not raise the debt ceiling.  That would eliminate any supposed leverage they perceive themselves as having.  In fact that would eliminate ALL leverage.  They won't have any.  Period.  

            Let them try and impeach him.  2014 will be a complete tidal wave between the govt shutdown and phony impeachment proceedings.   Dems only need 20 seats to get back the majority and at the rate their going the Dems will get it and then some.  

            This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

            by DisNoir36 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:34:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Remember, Obama's a constitutional scholar (8+ / 0-)

      He's not about to do anything legally questionable. He has no intention of being impeached.

      •  But probably exploring all the options (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wintergreen8694, bdop4, RenMin

        I mean, this is the constitutional scholar who has authorized outrageously unconstitutional spying on Americans and holding people without trial at Guantanamo. They do work-arounds when they consider it necessary -- pragmatic realism.

        I would assume that he and his people are actively researching (or already have, from the last rounds) what he can legitimately do to get around the GOP-invented roadblocks. IMO they have more options on the debt ceiling than on keeping the government open without a Congressional spending authorization.

      •  And any constitutional scholar knows (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mikejay611, dewtx, thomask

        that section 4 of the 14th Amendment in no way gives the President the power to raise the debt ceiling. That's strictly the province of Congress and its power of the purse. Further, the debt ceiling is set by statute. No one would argue that this statute is unconstitutional, so the President could not essentially repeal it and replace it with a statute setting a higher debt ceiling.

        Please, oh please, wingnuts, do run someone really, really conservative in 2016 -- and pen for us the opening chapter of "The Way of the Whigs"

        by Yankee Patriot on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:13:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just an added thought (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mikejay611, dewtx

          Since the ceiling would be lower than the debt, the President would be the one who determines which debts are paid off as they are incurred -- a powerful position to be in. And another self-inflicted bullet wound in the GOP's collective foot.

          Please, oh please, wingnuts, do run someone really, really conservative in 2016 -- and pen for us the opening chapter of "The Way of the Whigs"

          by Yankee Patriot on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:17:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  And the president's legal advisors have (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mikejay611, dewtx, wintergreen8694

        already told him that to go over the head of the legislature would be illegal.  I don't know how they told him to deal with the law (constitution) when it directs the country to pay the bills and the law (debt ceiling) that tells him he can not unilaterally do so without congressional consent.  Anything he does alone to keep the full faith and credit of the U.S. safe and secure is going to be illegal and lead to his possible impeachment.  By their threats to default, the Republicans have him in a box, along with all future Democratic presidents, and the only escape will be to negotiate with them to keep from throwing the world economy into a tailspin.

        "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

        by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:21:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, they have themselves, by their own admission, (0+ / 0-)

          in a box canyon, and not for the first time. Even Breitbart said so. In 2011.

          A Fatal 'Box Canyon' for the GOP?

          And the Wall Street Journal is saying it now.

          A GOP Shutdown Strategy

          We opposed this shutdown strategy precisely because the congressional math made this box canyon so clearly inevitable.
          However, some House Republicans intend to inflict as much pain as possible on us and themselves before their abject capitulation.

          Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

          by Mokurai on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 02:13:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Mint the trillion dollar coin! (14+ / 0-)

      And to really rub it in, Obama should put Grover Norquist's face on one side, and Ted Cruz's face on the other.

      -

    •  A Cover for that action (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      glitterscale, mikejay611, dewtx, lcbo, RenMin

      There is a faction of the far right that would like to "force" him to do that in order to have grounds for impeachment.

      There is a straightforward way around that: The senate passes a one-sentence bill that says that under the 14th Amendment the president has the authority...

      Now, it wouldn't pass the House, but it would be damn hard to pass a motion to impeach once the Senate had affirmed that provision.

      •  agreed (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        captnkurt, mikejay611, dewtx

        the GOP playbook has 2 moves when there is a Democrat in the WH: 1) government shutdown, and 2) impeachment.

        Even if Articles of Impeachment wouldn't get very far, we cannot give the right another reason to lob unsubstantiated claims of tyrannical leadership or liberal overreach against the President.

        The House can, however, submit a discharge petition on the floor for a clean CR bill with language that eliminates the need to ever raise the debt ceiling.

        If there are as many GOP members that want to end this TP insanity as is believed, then it will pass.

        •  Do they need 30 days? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mikejay611

          I wrote that a couple days ago and someone responded that the bill had to be sitting around the house for 30 days. I didn't check that out.

          With a one sentence "bill" from the Senate, no one would bother considering impeachment.

        •  I don't believe there are enough "moderate" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mikejay611, ratcityreprobate, RenMin

          Republicans to pass a clean CR, even if Boehner were to bring it to the floor for a vote.  They all vote for these poison-pill bills sent to the senate to solve the shutdown.  And when given the opportunity, they didn't vote for a clean CR yesterday.  If there are moderate Republicans left in the House, they're cowed by the tea party.  Personally, I don't believe there are any.  They may think they're moderates, but as Meteor Blades tells us, it's not what they say but what they do that tells us who they are.

          "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

          by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:30:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exactly, where the hell are the 18 or 19 who are (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SueDe, RenMin

            supposedly in favor of a CR? Nowhere to be seen and that is the same as non-existent.

          •  more timing than anything else (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sylv

            "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:25:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The article at your link was (0+ / 0-)

              from yesterday, apparently before the vote to order the previous question was taken and the "moderate" Republicans did not vote with the Democrats.
              From your link:

              But when would a group of moderates actually employ that strategy [asked the reporter]?
              "That’s the question,” [Rep.] Grimm said. “I think everyone is trying to give leadership at least the opportunity to have the conversation with the other side.”
              Well,  that ship sailed yesterday evening, when Boehner emerged from his talks with the president to announce that the president had just reiterated his refusal to negotiate.
              Asked when he thought the group of moderate Republicans would start voting to do that, [Rep. Peter] King wasn’t sure.  “I think they should do it now,” he said. “Believe it or not, people don’t always listen to me.”
              Timing is incidental to these people, apparently.  They had a chance to get a clean CR brought to the floor yesterday, and they balked.  Either they don't have the votes to pass a clean CR with the Democrats or they're lying about wanting to end the stalemate.

              "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

              by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:14:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  sigh (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Meteor Blades

                that's one attempt, of several to come.

                just wait and see. Open mind, and all that.

                "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:27:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  if those votes materialize (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mokurai, Meteor Blades

                they will be from this list.

                An increasing number of House Republicans have said that they will support a clean continuing resolution, or CR. This “clean” bill is free of any amendments attempting to delay or change President Obama’s health-care law. Here is a look at what may be fueling some of that sudden bipartisanship, whether they represent a competitive district (2012 vote %) or a high percentage of the district’s workforce is employed by the federal government (% of federal workers).

                "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:31:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  more (today, NYT) (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sylv, Mokurai
                With attention shifting to potential consequences of not increasing the debt limit, one House Republican said Thursday that Speaker John A. Boehner has told colleagues that he was determined to prevent a federal default and was willing to pass a measure through a combination of Republican and Democratic votes.

                The lawmaker, who spoke on the condition of not being named, said Mr. Boehner indicated he would be willing to violate the so-called Hastert rule if necessary to pass a debt limit increase. The informal rule refers to a policy of not bringing to the floor any measure that does not have a majority of Republican votes.

                Other Republicans also said Thursday that they got the sense that Mr. Boehner, who held two meetings Wednesday with groups of House moderates, would do whatever was necessary to ensure the country did not default on its debt.

                http://www.nytimes.com/...

                "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:45:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  News is coming fast and furiously now. (0+ / 0-)

                  Isn't it possible that Boehner, being the benevolent sherpa he has become for the tea partiers, will not let the country default on the debt but will keep the government shut down?   I surely hope you're right that a full house vote on a clean CR is just a matter of time, that the house lunatics will "allow" the government to pay its bills in the meantime.  But I'm concerned that we could finally end up with a government shutdown with no end in sight and no leverage unless the peasants finally storm the capitol.

                  "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                  by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:40:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  hard to see that (0+ / 0-)

                    because they know the fight is lost on Obamacare and there'd be no rationale for shutdown.

                    part of a losing effort:

                    Groups that pressured GOP on defund effort shift focus onto Democrats

                    G.O.P. Elders See Liabilities in Shutdown

                    Shutdown could diminish GOP hopes of winning Senate

                    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                    by Greg Dworkin on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:23:40 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And here we are, with Boehner promising (0+ / 0-)

                      that he will never allow a debt default, but the shutdown carries on.  No Republican can explain a reason now why they won't open the government, even though they have come to realize that they're not going to shut down the ACA.  But when they have the chance to open the government back up, they vote no.  Is the "timing" still not right for them?  Do they think the timing will be better for them nearer the debt ceiling date?  Why?  Do you have any ideas what their reasons, or excuses, might be now for keeping the government shut down?  What do they want to see for the "timing" to be right?

                      The Republicans are just playing nit-picking games now; they have apparently lost track of the big picture.  If they're waiting for the clouds to part and a miracle to drop from the sky to save them from themselves, what form do they expect that miracle to take?

                      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                      by SueDe on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 09:57:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  I think the conference committee is being (0+ / 0-)

                  appointed for the purpose of reconciling the budget bills.  I could be wrong, but from what I understand it's not going to address the defunding or delaying or any other attempted destruction of the ACA.

                  I heard today that the medical device tax repeal was already a done deal.  Could that be right?  How will the lost ACA funding be made up?

                  "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                  by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:51:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  This is such bullshit (0+ / 0-)

                You can't appoint a conference committee unless two bills have passed. The Senate defeated every stupid bill, so there couldn't be a conference committee appointed on any of them.

          •  I think there are (0+ / 0-)

            The trick is getting 17 (like the Bible passage about Sodom...) Once it is going to pass, it will be "all hands on deck."

        •  Nope. We can get Republican support for a CR (0+ / 0-)

          but not for eliminating the debt ceiling. Not even a Democratic House would go for that. We would need a majority of Progressives.

          Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

          by Mokurai on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 02:16:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I can't believe the Repulicans are that dumb ... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mikejay611, RenMin, codairem

        (And I can't believe that I just wrote that ...)

        Impeachment is a display of political power.  It has nothing to do with "high crimes".  The Republicans don't have 51 votes in the Seanate to repeal Obamacare ... where do they think they will get the 67 votes to impeach.  It will look to 80% of America as a poltical stunt.

        Self preservation is a politicians first instinct.  This WOULD BE sucicide, even in blood red districts.

        I am a statistician, not a magician although we are easily confused. I guess that explains why people keep trying to tie me in chains and place me under water.

        by Edge PA on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:18:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Further to your point, I'd love to know that (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sfbob, mikejay611, RenMin, codairem

      Obama is whispering in Boner's ear that Dems got one million more votes nationally than Rape-publi-scum in the 2012 House elections. So Boner's majority is illegitimate (in the larger sense of 'one-man, one vote'), built upon gerry-mandered districts and pocket boroughs.

      And that, unless Boner caves on the CR and deb ceiling, Obama tends to start using the bully pulpit to promulgate that message to the American people.

      •  Blly pulpit? That congregation ain't listening! (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mikejay611, Greg Dworkin, RenMin

        And they will not. The problem lies in districts, yes gerrymandered, but legal where the congregation is drunk on Rush and ideology that even dismisses science and plain fact.

        To repeat, Wouldda, couldda, shouldda has zero application from New Year's eve 2012:

        They kept the House and that is all the power, even idiotically directed power, to ensure TP/GOP obstructionists will be alive and well at least through 2014.

        Civics 100, not even 101, is that unless people speak in all elections, in every race, with a strong voice pockets of obstructionists power will remain in a system such as ours. The fact enough retrograde or ignorant people spoke, and enough on our side couldn't be bothered to vote in the last mid terms put into state legislative power gerrymander crazed TP/GOP types. Then enough of their side voted for these same types in those neat little safe districts to ensure we have die hard obstructionists at least through 2014 in the House.

        How the "American people spoke" in the one moment that counted in 2010 and 2012 in those CDs outweighs all the meaningless, hot air opinion polls and number citing about where they actually stand.

        Yeah, elections, every damn one of them, have consequences! Only one moment counts. That is when the American people speak casting a vote.

        We fucked up big time in 2010, our idiot move because that was the one that handed states to legislatures drunk on rigging the system from that gerrymandering it is useless to whine about to attempts to take away our votes. That is the one that gave us the shot of Pelosi handing the gavel to the drunk drivers.

        Fuck up in 2014 by whining instead of dragging our asses to the voting booth and it is likely too late. By the time that "demographic change" some trust like biblical prophesy the new demographics will inherit a wasteland. Consider one in which all those foreigners trusting the full faith and credit of this country will have pulled out and we may be like Wiemar Germany needing $100 bills to buy bread.

        The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

        by pelagicray on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:24:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  He has to put it on the table (0+ / 0-)

      Because the Republicans are crazy enough to let the debt limit be breached.  There is a group of ignorant fools who don't know anything about history or finance or international capital markets, but who think that's all just a bunch of elitist hooey designed to confuse and intimidate ordinary people.  Unfortunately, they are now in a position of power -- some 40 to 80 of them have, through the majesty of democracy (in this era of hyper-gerrymandering), assumed positions of responsibility without the tools to exercise their power responsibly.  A good portion of them truly don't believe the full faith and credit of the United States means anything, don't believe that world financial markets would be harmed by default, and perhaps even wish for such an event because they believe it would "shake things up" and make it more likely that they could enact their radical laissez faire robber baron economic fantasies.

      So, being a rational person who wants to avoid a global financial disaster, Obama has two choices:

      1. Kowtow to the radical teabaggers, granting concessions; or

      2.  Unilaterally take the weapon out of their hands by assuming power to borrow and to pay debts regardless of the debt limit.

      To be sure, the latter would be met with howls of protest and perhaps even an attempted impeachment (which wouldn't go anywhere), but I predict the vast majority of the public would applaud him standing up to the bully.  
      And the first alternative is untenable, because no matter how onerous the capitulation is -- and rest assured, it would be horrible -- they would be empowered and just keep coming back for more.

      So President Obama, you really have no choice -- if the Republicans really turn out to be crazy enough to blow up the economy, you have to take matters in your own hands to ensure the full faith and credit of the United States.

      "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

      by RenMin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 09:03:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Republicans would go even further nuts (0+ / 0-)

      if he did it. We do not in fact know what SC Justice Kennedy would say, so we cannot as a practical matter afford to find out. Now if Scalia or Kennedy were to get sick or something, and Obama got to nominate a third Justice, things could possibly be different.

      Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

      by Mokurai on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 01:57:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  But...but...political symmetry is vital... (10+ / 0-)

    ...for the existence of a "Sensible Center." And how can you possibly have a revered and respected Village without a "Sensible Center??"

    Oh wait....

    Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. --Martin Luther King Jr.

    by Egalitare on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:39:53 AM PDT

  •  I am anti-blackmail, even if it means default (14+ / 0-)

    If it takes crashing the economy to break the Tea Party, I am in favor.  Hopefully breaking them allows a bona fide budget that can restore the crashed economy to move forward.  

    •  Any agreement needs to have real legislation... (21+ / 0-)

      ...that stops this in the future.

      Something like automatic debt ceiling increases and/or reversion to the previous year's budget if a new budget can't be worked out.

      And I don't mean one-time fixes -- I mean real legislation that would institute these things for all future situations.

      This cliff diving stuff is horrible for the economy.

    •  I really like your name! All of my writing is (2+ / 0-)

      about liberal Capitalism, even Capitalism flavored with a touch of altruism. It can work.  Sadly, it is run by humans.

      Ayn sucks. Please know I am not rude. I cannot rec anything from this browser. When I rec or post diaries I am a guest at some exotic locale's computer.

      by Floyd Blue on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:49:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Tea Party is not a grass roots operation (4+ / 0-)

      The Tea Party is a creation and tool of plutocrats, not a creature of the grass roots angry white people we see on TV.  I believe crashing the economy will not fundamentally change that truth, nor will it harm those who fund and direct it.  I think the opposite is probably true.  Rather than allowing the beneficial results you envision, a crashed economic result of conservative nihilists' policies seems to me at least as likely as not to enrich the likes of the Koch brothers in the short run, and empower them in the long run.  

      That doesn't mean Democrats should cave to Republicans' extortion.  Quite to the contrary.  Republicans are saying they have to get something out of this.  Bullshit!  Republicans should lose something out of this - something big.  Let's start with the debt ceiling; they need to lose that cudgel.  Maybe there are ways those Teahadists districts could also lose federal contracts.  Just send out the auditors and withhold payment pending resolution of all issues.  It will grind them to dust, and the Congressmen will get the message from their contributors in ways that will focus their minds wonderfully.

      •  Depends which side plutocrats hold (7+ / 0-)

        Plutocrats know how to make money in good times and bad.
        If you have the ability to crash a stock -- or a country's entire economy -- you just load up on shorting and options, and then crash it, settle your bets for pennies, and pocket your gazillions in profits.
        So yes, Wall St. is clearly worried that the stalemate is bad for the economy. But we don't know which side the Koch Brothers, Carlyle Group, etc. etc. are betting on. I suspect they're massively short the entire economy.

        •  Yeah, I do too (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mikejay611, RenMin

          I join you in that suspicion, and find the speculation that Cantor (for example) is also shorting US bonds to be both important and infuriating.  That is what I meant about short run enrichment.  Of course, for a lot of the very rich to be shorting debt instruments, someone has to be taking the long position.  All too often, that has been us middle class Americans through our pension funds, etc, conned by the managers' Wall Street contacts.  

        •  I wish (0+ / 0-)

          If plutocrats had been out shorting the mortgage bubble when it got going, the meltdown wouldn't have happened. Likewise for Enron, the Dot.Com bubble under Clinton, the Roaring 20s, and every other fraudulent Ponzi corporation and asset bubble since the Dutch Tulip Mania.

          See The Big Short: Inside the Doomsday Machine by Michael Lewis. Even the biggest shorters couldn't get regulators or politicians or the big banks to listen.

          Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

          by Mokurai on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 02:26:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The Tea Party was born sold out. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        salmo, pipercity1

        From the time Rick Santelli ranted about how the people on the bottom should be blamed for the collapse of the Housing Bubble, Tea Partisans have been trying to distract America from the real causes of the Great Recession.

        Freedom's just another word for not enough to eat. --Paul Krugman's characterization of conservative attitudes.

        by Judge Moonbox on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 08:54:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  you are not in favor of that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RenMin

      the economic assumptions we have all been living under for our entire lives----that the US dollar is the world's reserve currency---would come into question, with who know what results. we can live with the T-party douchebags long enough for them to hang themselves, and we don't need or want an economic crisis for them to do it.

  •  and they have a victory . . . (6+ / 0-)
    Per sources, entitlement reforms, such as chained CPI, an elimination of the medical-device tax, and delays to parts of Obamacare are all on the table as trades for delaying aspects of sequestration and extending the debt limit.
    and the American people lose.  This all seems so familiar.

    "Where some see a system for encouraging discussion . . . others see an echo chamber of bad grammar, unchecked stupidity, and constructive interference . . . " -- Ars Technica

    by Rikon Snow on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:41:42 AM PDT

  •  Democrats need to hit Republicans EVERY SINGLE (20+ / 0-)

    DAY when they propose this "Grand Bargain" which cutting Social Security and Medicare in order to raise the debt ceiling.

    Democrats need to hit them on Republicans want to cut your Social Security and Medicare or they will tank the U.S. economy.

    In other words your Social Security and Medicare benefits are being held hostage.

    President Obama, January 9, 2012: "Change is hard, but it is possible. I've Seen it. I've Lived it."

    by Drdemocrat on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:43:32 AM PDT

  •  Sorry, House Republicans -- Self inflicted wounds (15+ / 0-)

    As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them. John F. Kennedy

    by JaxDem on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:43:48 AM PDT

  •  last night I posted an update on my wife (11+ / 0-)

    and her treatment for cancer.  If you are interested, you can read this posting

    thanks

    peace

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:44:02 AM PDT

  •  Well said by Rosen (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fcvaguy, sfbob
    a shill or mouthpiece ... for a certain image of yourself as “above” all that. You are a propagandist for a personal conceit ... while always and forever splitting the difference
  •  republicans still in denial (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koosah, hulibow, PsychoSavannah, sfbob, avsp, RenMin
    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid sent a letter Wednesday to Boehner committing to move forward with a conference committee on the budget “as soon as the government opens.” After the White House meeting Wednesday, Reid said Boehner “cannot take yes for an answer.”

    Republicans say this could be a stumbling block since there remains a large bloc of conservatives who would oppose funding the government and hiking the debt before knowing what kind of concessions they would get.

    If you haven't realized it yet, assholes, you're not going to get ANY concessions over funding the government and raising the debt ceiling.
  •  This is the GOP's version of "going Galt" (11+ / 0-)

    They felt that their Ayn Rand-fed base demanded a thrilling, monumental, uncompromising gesture that would make their enemies grovel at their feet. And this is what they came up with.

    •  in a way, yes (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      koosah, a2nite, sfbob, avsp, RenMin, codairem

      this IS their vision of what govt should look like.

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:53:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you are correct (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stude Dude, sfbob, avsp, lcbo, RenMin

      for many on the far right, shutting down the federal government completely is their end game. There is no motivation to fully restore the government.

      Their logic is that if Americans can go without certain aspects of the Federal Government, then they'll adjust and either recognize it as "the new normal", or they will say, "hey, this isn't so bad....let's get rid of more government".

      That, however, is unlikely to happen.

      •  It's worked so far on sequester (5+ / 0-)

        We have gotten used to the 5% cut, so obviously it's time for the next haircut to shave another 5%.

        If I could direct which 5% gets cut, I'd be OK with this. ("Farm" subsidies to millionaires, oil and gas subsidies, building new military bases in Africa, and all varieties of fraud and padded privatized contracts would be high on my list; WIC and family planning services would be at the very bottom.)

  •  It's about getting rid of that Democracy thing. (8+ / 0-)

    "It always has been sort of overrated, you know. Back in the good old days, people at least knew their place - but they have become so addicted to this democracy thing, that it's high time to do something about it.

    You know - gerrymandering districts into designer-majorities hasn't obviously done the trick (...OK, still less risky than manipulating voting-machines or ye good olde stuffing of ballot boxes). You know - swamping peoples minds with bent and twisted distortions of reality and feeding them feel-good phrases of BS hasn't done the trick.

    So since people don't voluntarily accept OUR point of view, we are basically FORCED to blow up the government, and it is APPALLING that the victim to our reckless extortion actually has the galls to complain about it!!1!"

    ...or so the Republican mindset obviously operates.

    Has anyone already looked up the definition of 'domestic terrorism' in the Patriot Act...

    Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick

    by RandomGuyFromGermany on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:48:50 AM PDT

    •  I'll more pointedly paraphrase a comment made on (3+ / 0-)

      a talk show by, I believe, a professor—he used money I'll use a more vivid example I think applies.

      Human trafficking thugs:

      Give us your two daughters or we will shoot your family.

      You are not negotiating so we are justified in shooting your family.

      The "daughters" represent more than just "Obamacare" here. They represent that and the concept that you do not undo legitimately passed law and elections in which you lost by threats and destruction (domestic terrorism). As was mentioned by others and in that program the precedent is then set for any losing minority gaining leverage in either house to do the same. An equivalent would have been Democrats in 2008 threatening to shut down the government and default unless GWB immediately left Iraq and dismantled the Patriot Act.

      That is the almost certain road to the one Germany took in the 1930s in which national government was paralyzed, helpless and prey to the worst (and another ruthless minority of citizens) in the society.

      The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

      by pelagicray on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:38:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd have more hope there. (0+ / 0-)

        A majority of people actually didn't vote for those fringe Representatives in the House and they actually did vote for the better guy in the White House. That's a distinct difference to Germany in those days - and pretty much the reason the fringe is so desperate.

        Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -- Philip K. Dick

        by RandomGuyFromGermany on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 08:33:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tend to agree, but an apathetic or not energetic (0+ / 0-)

          majority often has been overcome by a bunch of fanatical true believers—and that is what is backing this bunch. Apparently about 20% in this country is in the fanatical true believer state and no facts or "education" is going to break through.

          I also think all bets may be off if default is driven and we lose our position as the hard currency in a stable country is lost. A big dump of dollars and we may well be in a neo Wiemar Republic with worthless paper. Worse, we've allowed our basic manufacturing muscle to go off shore so we will be in the situation of so many struggling in the second and third world with a weak currency and little manufacturing independence, forced to import.

          The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

          by pelagicray on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 11:02:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Why should Costa be trusted on anything? (5+ / 0-)

    He's the GOP's trojan horse on MSNBC, complete with inside-baseball analyses of GOP factionalism (made up) and positioning of Paul effin' Ryan as savior.

    •  in this case, why not? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Greg Dworkin

      He's reporting what unnamed Republicans are supposed to have said. There's no reason to assume that they are speaking entirely candidly, but if he is basically a GOP mouthpiece, shouldn't he at least be that?

      "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

      by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:52:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  ?? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rl en france, coppercelt, RenMin

      He has good sources of what the Rs are thinking. Better than ours.

      What do you mean "trusted"? Much of his early reporting is eventually validated by others. That's trust enough.

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 04:54:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  For example (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Berkeley Fred, RenMin, codairem

        He promotes the myth that there are moderate Republicans, but they don't materialize in any actual vote. His job to is paper over the fact that the Republican Party is 100% intransigent on the shutdown issue, and be an usher to a Grand Bargain where Ryan is in the driver's seat.

        It's less what Republicans are thinking, but more conduit for the reality they are trying to construct (in the post-modern Rovian sense).

        •  disagree (0+ / 0-)

          same reporting comes from elsewhere. It really is what they think. It is not, however, what's going to happen and Costa often (on twitter) says as much.

          "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

          by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:18:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe you can explain this to me (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RenMin, codairem

            I gather that the spin is that "moderate" Republicans are so cowed by the 'bagger brigade that they have voted 100% against their consciences to date. Unbelievable, but stipulate that.

            But then we hear that if only a clean CR could be put forward, the moderates would vote for it in droves. But wouldn't the threat of 'bagger retaliation still be there? It doesn't make sense, other than as a Rovian alternate reality for public consumption, i.e., that moderate Republicans are there who are eager for "compromise" if they are just thrown a bone to fend off the pit bulls.

            On MSNBC yesterday we had people like Chris Hays lamenting that the stories of Republican dissension had dried up. So they resume today from unnamed sources.

            •  The leadership and optics (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RenMin

              Two issues you are missing:
              1. R House leadership, to maintain their positions (because defections of 20-30 Rs can end Boehner's speakership), have been very reluctant to let anything close to a clean CR get through because:
              2. if they let a clean CR, anyone who facilitates or votes for it, will be perceived as a traitor and a cause for the republicans "losing." With the extreme gerrymandering that has happened in most districts, even moderate Rs are threatened from the hard right. See, e.g., Mitch McConnell. At the end of the day, the decision will be one of keeping the nation functioning or keeping one's job for another 2 years after 2014.

              •  it's likely Boehner could survive one but not 2 (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                a2nite

                votes like that. Save your ammo for debt ceiling.

                "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:45:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Isn't (2) exactly what I'm saying? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ratcityreprobate

                That any Republican who votes for a clean CR who engage 'bagger wrath, which is supposedly what's whipping them into line in the first place?

              •  Mitch McConnell's job is not threatened (0+ / 0-)

                by gerrymandering.  He's a senator elected by the entire state, not a representative elected by a gerrymandered district.  But he is being threatened on both flanks, from a liberal Democrat (as liberal as Kentucky would ever elect) and a tea party candidate who thinks McConnell is a RINO.

                "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:51:06 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  this is a "hang together or hang separately" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              a2nite

              moment. it's for the moment a no vote with the slightly silly R's (apologies to Monty Python), not the very silly Rs that will never say yes.

               if Boehner put a clear CR on the floor for a vote with his endorsement it would easily pass, with R votes. But he'd no longer be Speaker.

              That is the only calculation. What can you get for that price?

              "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

              by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:42:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Hanging cads (0+ / 0-)
                if Boehner put a clear CR on the floor for a vote with his endorsement it would easily pass, with R votes
                And wouldn't said R's be primaried/attacked from the right, which is what they're supposedly afraid of in the first place to explain every vote to date? The whole thing sounds like a not well-thought out fairy tale.
                •  no (0+ / 0-)

                  the yes votes would be from places like Virginia and NY. The nutter caucus only represents 30-40 votes. They are free from pressure at home. Another 150 or so are safe seat but not nutters. Theres 20-30 votes in play, but it'd take a revolt to get them, or Boehner has to cave.

                  And that's not going to happen yet. but it will because it has to.

                  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                  by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:58:28 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So 150 are safe from 'bagger attacks (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SueDe, codairem

                    ...and would like to vote on a clean CR, but to date have voted for every defund-ACA amendment & opposed a discharge petition that would have given them said clean CR. Do I have that right?

                    •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

                      like in the Senate, there are GOPers who hate where they are (symbolic votes are one thing, govt shutdown with angry constituents are another), but see no choice but to go ahead with leadership for now. Only a handful (Peter king most visibly, Charlie Dent is another) say so out loud.

                      http://blogs.rollcall.com/...

                      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:10:25 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Don't believe that for one second (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        codairem

                        So the 'baggers have no leverage over them, but Boehner who is supposedly in thrall to the 'baggers against his will rules all? This is all just a concocted fairy tale.

                        This is the party that voted 100% against ACA in the first place. They are all on board this train 100%, and it's been consistent for years.

                        •  nontheless it's so (0+ / 0-)

                          whether you choose to believe it or not.

                          You're painting a cartoon portrait of the GOP as if peter king  =  steve king. it isn't correct.

                          mind you, what the media calls moderates are full conservatives, it's just that the nutters are far right of them.

                          "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                          by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:28:17 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I rely on facts (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            codairem

                            ...such as all the votes to date, not fairy tales spun by National Review flacks. The stories about moderate Republicans are more akin to reports of unicorns. They don't show up in any physical evidence, just anecdote. Peter King was alone in his "moderates revolt," no Republicans support a discharge petition, etc.

                          •  yet (0+ / 0-)

                            time will prove me right.

                            In an interview earlier on CNBC, Mr. Obama said he would not back down. “As soon as we get a clean piece of legislation that reopens the government — and there is a majority for that right now in the House of Representatives — until we get that done, until we make sure that Congress allows Treasury to pay for things that Congress itself already authorized, we are not going to engage in a series of negotiations.”
                            http://www.nytimes.com/...

                            "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:53:32 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  PS past performance ≠ future results n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:54:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yet another report (0+ / 0-)

                            becoming too numerous to ignore.

                            More than a dozen House Republicans who want to drop attempts to undermine the health-care law and reopen the government are meeting among themselves and with House Speaker John Boehner -- and he’s listening.

                            For the past few weeks, Boehner’s hand has been guided by Tea Party-aligned Republican House members who’ve urged little compromise in their three-year drive to undo the 2010 Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare.

                            Now, the agitation is coming from the other side of the caucus. A bipartisan group of about 40 House lawmakers are holding private talks to find a compromise to end the shutdown, said Representative Reid Ribble, a Wisconsin Republican.

                            http://www.businessweek.com/...

                            we'll see what comes of it.

                            "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

                            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 08:59:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  You've got it right. (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm not at all sure a clean CR would draw enough Republican votes to pass the House.  I've heard the arguments that there are enough Republicans willing to pass it, but I've seen their votes and I don't believe it.

                      I wish they would prove me wrong, but the vote they cast yesterday shows me that they don't want a clean bill even brought up so they would be forced to vote.  I understand now that Boehner is speaking for ALL the Republicans in the House, no matter what some of them tell reporters.

                      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                      by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 08:00:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Some are in less-safe districts (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sfbob

                  The hard-liners are, as I understand it, in districts where they're guaranteed 65+% of the vote. But there are enough GOPers in both Houses who are in considerably purpler districts, and are likely to face serious Democratic opposition as well as possible right-wing primaries. (I don't keep that list, but look for any district that went for Obama in either 2008 or 2012, and/or had a Democrat in the post before 2010.) I noticed, for example, that Sen. Ayotte has made some pretty reasonable McCain-sounding statements, distancing herself from the Ryan/Rand Paul faction. I would guess she's hearing a lot from the folks back home.  

                  •  Don't kid yourself. (0+ / 0-)

                    They're all hardliners.  There may be some less radical Republicans in the Senate, but there aren't any in the House.  Don't listen to them - watch the way they vote.

                    "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

                    by SueDe on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 08:03:59 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Re: Why should Costa be trusted on anything? (4+ / 0-)

      I know Bob from college; still keep in touch when I swing through D.C. He's not an R mouthpiece. He has good sources and reports what is happening/what the thinking is on their side; usually no false equivalence. And this is coming from a pretty solid lib-dem.

      So, that's why I'd trust it a bit.

      •  have to agree (0+ / 0-)

        he's an actual reporter, not an ideologue or polemicist.

        "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:51:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Does it make any difference if the Grand Bargain (0+ / 0-)

          he has been talking about (promoting) for the last couple days is a figment of his imagination or a lie or wishful thinking of unnamed republican House aides? I think not. Obama, Reid and Pelosi have made it abundantly clear there is no Grand Bargain under discussion or consideration. Whether he is just passing along GOP talking points or inventing them is immaterial. The info he was passing along was false and some folks on the left, Greg Sargent and here at DKOS, are willing to accept it. For God's sake, Rich Lowry signs his paycheck. What more do we need to know?

          •  It's ironic (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            codairem

            That supporters of this line (that there is such a thing as a moderate Republican whom we should enlist as an ally) are guilty of what Pres. Obama has been criticized for on this here blog. We have seen where that leads (zero percent Republican support in the end).

            I see why there is an impulse to believe it, as there is a need to make this debacle somehow come out with a happy ending (i.e., not only a continuation of government but also a split in the GOP). But it's a fantasy. The GOP will never give in on its 100% determination to extort a defunding of Obamacare, or an equally bad Grand Bargain involving SS/Medicare. The government will be closed indefinitely. There will be no popcorn handed out, only misery, and the entire GOP is behind it.

            •  it's not ironic (0+ / 0-)

              we have folks on our side who can't accept nuance.

              same as it ever was.  ;-)

              But no point in arguing, really. This will play out and we will see what's what.

              "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

              by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:56:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  yeah, that naif Greg Sargent (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ratcityreprobate

            with his own sources and all that.

            I don't get this. No one's saying the Dems think it is a good idea as you point out.

            Where's the part that gets your dander up?

            "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

            by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 07:59:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks Greg (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    skillet, DRo, pamelabrown, angry marmot, sfbob, avsp

    Good reads. The most fascinating thing about this is the Frankenstein aspect - the Republicans created those gerrymandered districts and now they have crazies who have no fear of ever losing their seats. On Morning Joe it was pointed out that only 17 of the House seats are in districts that President Obama won (don't quote me on that & correct me if I am wrong - my insomnia and I were watching in the 4:00 am hour)

  •  My Hammer is Getting Tired of Pounding (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lcbo

    the same nail.  I've been arguing this since the day the shutdown started.

    So as the shutdown drags on and Obamacare falls off the negotiating table, it’s left Republicans struggling to answer a basic question: What’s the fight even about?
    This shutdown is not now and never has been about Republicans vs. Democrats and their differences over governing policy.  It's illogical to think that it ever was about Obamacare, no matter how many voices proclaim otherwise.

    Look at the timing.  Obamacare begins in earnest the day Republicans shut down government.  What?  In protest?

    No.

    This fight is and always has been about control of the Republican Party.  We're witnessing the spill-over of a mostly backroom battle into the country as a whole.  Why?  Because Cruz and the Gang of 80 saw this "staged Obamacare battle" as the Grand Opportunity to cease putting up with bargaining with Boehner and take over control from him thus, essentially taking over government.

    Cruz and Gang want to dictate terms of surrender to Obama.  They know they'll get a lot more out of him than Boehner.  Obama's history of negotiation throughout his presidency is to give away stuff BEFORE negotiations begin.  They're depending on him to be consistent because they know they can further their agenda, achieve much greater concessions from the president, just by setting everything on fire, then negotiating from a position of, "Look! Government's all in flames!" strength.

    In short, a coup.

    Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

    by Limelite on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:06:43 AM PDT

    •  not totally wrong (6+ / 0-)

      in the sense that their plan is:

      1. get crazy
      2. demand everything
      3. a miracle happens
      4. win

      Where we disagree is 3.

      you think it does, i think it doesn't.

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:09:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What Miracle? (0+ / 0-)

        Obama doesn't "cave"?

        Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

        by Limelite on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:18:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obama doesn't cave (4+ / 0-)

          that is correct. He hasn't and neither has the Senate. And I believe he can't.

          Certainly the discussion is no longer about Obamacare. have you noticed?

          Congressman Stutzman: He Has No Idea What the GOP Wants

          But he sure as hell won't be dissed!

          “We’re not going to be disrespected,” said Congressman Stutzman during an interview with the Washington Examiner on Tuesday.  “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

          Read more: http://swampland.time.com/...

          "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

          by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:34:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Aren't You Arguing Against Your Point? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            codairem

            You claim our difference is I believe in a "miracle" and you don't.

            Now you agree the miracle is Obama's historical behavior undergoes a sea change.

            But I don't believe that.  I believe Obama will extend the hand of peace with a "treat" in it and Cruz Republicans will bite it.

            So, isn't it you who still believes the miracle while I don't?

            You ask: Have I noticed the discussion " suddenly" isn't about Obamacare?  My entire argument from it's first proposition made two days ago has been that it never was.  I can not be responsible for the scales on other people's eyes.

            The gods aren't crazy.  This time they won't send a rhino to stomp out the fire.  This time it will be the Fireman-in-Chief and his extinguisher will include all or some concessions on the device tax, on sequester, on Medicare, on Social Security, on Keystone, general de-regulation, etc., etc., etc.  But absolutely no increase in revenues will be conceded back in exchange for any of those treats.

            Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

            by Limelite on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:45:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  nah (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sfbob, avsp

              I think the situation now is not the situation then. I think that Obama and the Ds see this as a make or break moment in terms of Wh function without an election to force a false and unwanted compromise.

              And, I see their actions going along with that analysis.

              I don't really care what he did 2 years ago in terms of what he will do now, it's irrelevant. Different situation.

              Now, I'm not saying he doesn't want to compromise (he prolly does). I'm saying he can't. And that's actually better.

              "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

              by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:55:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But He Can. Please See Reply to (0+ / 0-)

                lorikristynmattjulie below.

                By not negotiating and giving way/away other concessions (we both agree Obamacare is off the table) Obama let's the conflagration continue.

                The question then comes down to: Who looks worse the longer government is in flames?  The answer is the president as Head of State.

                Unfortunately, without Boehner standing up to Cruz and re-taking control of his caucus, the balance of power has shifted in an unprecedented way, corrupting checks and balances.  In effect, the president and Boehner are both being held hostage by Cruz.  That's why we're in this stalemate.

                And we've come full circle to my original post.

                Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

                by Limelite on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:03:43 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  wow (0+ / 0-)

              The whole country is struggling to determine the outcome of this debacle, but only you know the answer?  

              I can not be responsible for the scales on other people's eyes.
               Have you been taking modesty lessons from Ted Cruz?

              Your forecast,

              This time it will be the Fireman-in-Chief and his extinguisher will include all or some concessions on the device tax, on sequester, on Medicare, on Social Security, on Keystone, general de-regulation, etc., etc., etc.  But absolutely no increase in revenues will be conceded back in exchange for any of those treats.
              is only your opinion.  I'll mark it, and remind you when this sordid affair is concluded.

              "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

              by SottoVoce on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:59:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Nope (0+ / 0-)

          He 'll offer some carrots that they wont accept. They ultimately will be left with nothing. They want to BURN IT DOWN.

          •  Which Implies Obama Wants to Let Them (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            codairem

            That seems to me totally out of his character as a pragmatic conciliator.

            Obamacare is Obama's "baby," as Tweety points out.  I believe the president will absolutely not give away his baby to the kidnappers who really want to snatch the money while claiming it's the baby they want.  Obama knows this.

            No argument from me there.  But there are plenty of just as important "shiny objects" in the way of whittling down government to Paul Ryan's budget (completely rejected by Democrats as Draconian -- but here we are saying yes to the near-Draconion "$988T" one) that the Cruzers want.

            President Obama will willingly give way and give some things away to put out the fire.

            Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

            by Limelite on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:55:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Their fantasy = he resigns (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elphinstone, sfbob, avsp

          presumably taking Biden with him. Or they impeach him. Or some NRA-fueled nutcase takes both of them out. Or there's a military coup using the one-third of the Armed Forces who share the Christian Dominionist or whatever it is ideology. At least that's what filters over occasionally from Twitter.

          I haven't read The Shock Doctrine, but assume she lays out pretty much what we're seeing -- but that even most of the Republicans are shocked by the full implications.

          This is partly about ideology, and partly about racism-fueled hatred for the "imposter" in the White House.

          •  Well, I Do Agree That Cruzers Are Delusional (0+ / 0-)

            if not psychotic.  But I can't go as far as you state, even while affirming that I think Cruz is a dangerous man beyond being a destructive politician.

            And I separate the Christifundamentalist crazies from the general Republican demographic who I want to believe are appalled by Cruzers and disillusioned with their party's leadership.  I want to believe that very much.  If I'm proven wrong, then we do have a failed experiment in American democracy.

            I'd rephrase your last paragraph to this is about rabid racism gone wild from longstanding Republican Southern Strategy policies further perverted by Cruzers.

            Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

            by Limelite on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:15:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Step Right Up!!.....Who wants to be leader of the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, avsp

    Grand Old Party?

    (only accepting applications from serious candidates)

  •  political reality (12+ / 0-)
    "We're not going to be disrespected," Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner.

    "We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

    by Greg Dworkin on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:13:10 AM PDT

  •  That Black Guy couldn't possible out-chicken us! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DRo, singe, avsp

    I am listening to Steve (aka idiot bigot) King with one ear, and what I hear is that they truly do not believe that Obama could possibly out-last them in a showdown. The baggers' caucus believe that he will capitulate in the end, and certainly believe that Reid will go along with him.

    I think that the underlying psychology of this whole showdown from their standpoint is that they can't possibly believe that President Obama will remain strong and principled.

  •  The Shutdown...Day 3.....Cruz's turn to shine.... (0+ / 0-)

    or wimp out.

  •  the gop caught their beastie ... (9+ / 0-)

    ... now they can go down with it.

  •  Fox news (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude

    still calling it  'a slimdown'.

    Be the change you want to see in the world. -Gandhi

    by DRo on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 05:24:21 AM PDT

  •  ftw (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    avsp
    [Cruz] pushed House Republicans into traffic and wandered away.
  •  The debt ceiling is pure bullshit. Congress (0+ / 0-)

    authorized the debt to be created and paid.

  •  Is US debt default the only way to break it? (5+ / 0-)

    No, I don’t mean only to break

    Tea Party’s fever and transparent delusions
    ...but also to break
    the following addictions:

    •    Addiction of “sane” Republicans to the belief that a Democratic (especially if Black) President cannot have the guts to face down a Republican Speaker (especially if White);

    •    Addiction of financiers to the idea of riskless credit (which gives them the confidence to develop ever-more risky ways to arbitrage against it);

    •    Addiction of the world to supposedly riskless securities that finance an over-militarized (and surveillance-addicted) US government;

    •    Addiction of US politicians to Wall Street’s contributions, lobbying expenditures, and income-after-politicking;

    •    Addiction of Wall Street to a disproportionate and ever-increasing share of global wealth;

    •    Addiction of US voters to the falsehood that there is no alternative to an over-financialized economy dominated by Too-Big-To-Fail oligopolists.

    Of course going cold turkey on all the above addictions:
    •    would make for very uncertain and dangerous times until all stakeholders could grope their way into new economic arrangements using non-financial assets in ways that are less dependent on complex finance, and
    •    would probably make interest rates on US government debt somewhat higher for as far as the eye can see.

    But this rough partial list of addictions suggests that Democrats and especially Progressives may have less, than many of their opponents, to fear from a US default, and that they should not be afraid to

    put the highest priority on preserving Constitutional Democracy,

    even if that entails

    throwing the steering wheel out the window and accepting the risk of crashing head-on into the Koch-Cruz-Boehner Express’.
    I expect this would result in somebody offering Boehner enough "fuck you" post-politicking financial security to incentivize him sufficiently to prevent the crash, but what if this expectation is wrong? Perhaps the correct answer is:
    Now that the Republicans have made so many previously "unthinkable" scenarios all-to-thinkable, we need to start facing the possibility of a default, and start thinking about what we would want to happen on the morning after.
  •  There goes the goalposts... (0+ / 0-)

    When talking amongst themselves, Republicans acknowledge that this is really about gaining the upper hand in budget negotiations and ginning up their base for 2014.  The press is eager to push the narrative that but for a select few, they really are a reasonable party with legitimate concerns over the deficit and a weary public will likely accept it, unwittingly rewarding and normalizing extremism.  All this talk of an internecine war within the GOP, their negative polling and (gasp!) scathing editorials over shutting down the government while Democrats are primed to cut "entitlements" and almost pleading for the Ryan budget means that Republicans are well on their way to victory.

  •  TP Crack Suicide Squad (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sfbob

    “We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.” - Winston Chuchill

    by se portland on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:23:05 AM PDT

  •  Those two words 'Grand Bargain', terrify me (0+ / 0-)

    Like no other, because Obama has shown a Pavlovian response to them for years - he's seemed to have a mad obsession for the whole idea DEEP down at his core, to the exclusion of everything else. And I'm sure the Rs know it, that's why they're using it as a fallback now. Can Obama resist? Is it even POSSIBLE for him to resist? All I can do is hope.

    Bacon pancakes, makin' bacon pancakes. Take some bacon and I'll put it in a pancake. Bacon pancakes, that's what it's gonna make - bacon pancakes!

    by Fordmandalay on Thu Oct 03, 2013 at 06:34:43 AM PDT

  •  Can anyone explain to me any president, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheDuckManCometh

    Democrat or Republican, could compromise over the smallest, most insignificant point or issue, when the good faith and credit of the United States is held hostage, without forever surrendering to the House of Representatives the anti-constitutional right to blackmail the nation over its momentary goals.  Is there any existing law, which could not be defunded in that way, by future ignorant and vandalistic congresses?  Would this group be too bashful to defund Medicare, or Social Security next? It seems to me that the whole use of the right to initiate budgetary bills as a political weapon has to result in such a resounding defeat, and the condemnation of the existing practitioners be so loud, that the method will never be attempted again (or at least until the next time the electorate has forgotten the lessons of history).

  •  One Repub admits they don't know what it's about (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Radical Moderate
    "We're not going to be disrespected," Rep. Marlin Stutzman (R-Ind.) told The Washington Examiner. "We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is."
  •  GOP=Abraham, Fed Govt=Isaac (0+ / 0-)

    I have this analogy running around in my head. Remember the story of Abraham and Isaac? Basically, God tells Abraham he needs to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to show his faith in God. BFD request / demand. Abraham raises the knife to kill his son and angels stop him. Many explanations have been given. My point is, what if the House Repubs are Abraham? They are thinking that if shutting down the government and defaulting are truly bad, divine intervention will stop their actions. I don't know how one counters this kind of thinking but just mean to point out that any rational discussion is just not where they are.

    Now, to digress on Abraham a bit. I know that theologians and pastors have worked on this troubling story for years. As my reference, I like a book by Julian Jaynes, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. It's from 1976 so there has probably been some progress since then but my point is simple. In the ancient world, the voice inside your head was the voice of god. So, when Abraham's hand was stopped he assigned divine providence as the agent. In the modern mind, we recognize that what stops our action is an internal conflict. Mostly, WTF are you doing? Stop that right now! Well, Republicans are looking for god to stop them and if god doesn't stop them, then what they are doing must still be the right thing. (Makes my brain hurt, it does.)

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