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Yesterday I had a disturbing and surreal conversation with a very dear but very right wing friend. I need help with some facts (I don't know all the answers) and if there's anyplace I can get accurate facts, it's dKos. The weird claims that need rebuttal are in blockquote to make them stand out.

First, she started with talking about her son who is an officer in the USMC; support services on his base are pretty much nonexistent because so many base personnel are civilians and are furloughed due to the government shutdown, and the base is pretty much non-functional. He had asked her something like "Mom, is this really worth it? (and he's as rightwing as she is).

She explained to me that she told him that it was worth it, because

every country in the world where health care was socialized had been an abject failure, and that we couldn't let Obama destroy our fine health care system no matter what.
Thus began an increasingly bizarre interpretation of the Affordable Care Act and of the idiotic behavior of the Republicans in Congress...

I pointed out to her that 1) maybe I'm selfish, but that I personally will benefit from the ACA because I will be getting better coverage for a far lower cost and my current BC/BS premiums for a bad policy are killing me, and that 2) what the House is doing is highly unethical. She warned me that

don't be so sure you'll be getting a better price because you won't, they're not telling you the truth.
Then, she pointed out that she gets her information from doctors (she sees a lot of them because she has some chronic medical conditions that she is treating at a clinic that focuses on nutrition, vitamins, and alternative therapies) and they must be right! She told me that
as of October 1, Dr. Xxxxx (her alternative doctor; he is an MD) cannot practice or even set foot in any of our area hospitals.
I didn't question that claim, but I do know that most of his procedures, being "alternative" and/or "experimental", are not covered by health insurance anyway and are probably already not permitted in hospitals.

She then described a friend of hers who is in her 90s with congestive heart failure and a pacemaker; the elderly patient needs a new pacemaker and

Medicare won't allow her to get her much-needed pacemaker because of Obamacare and because she's too old to bother with.
She went on to tell me that her own primary care doctor told her that
if any doctor dared to replace her friend's pacemaker on a cash basis he would lose his license and possibly be prosecuted.
Back to the government shutdown...I told her that, while I understood people's dissatisfaction and suspicion about the ACA, my biggest complaint with what the Republicans were doing is that they are violating proper procedure and shirking their duties as legislators. Let them follow the proper procedure, I said. Let them attain a Senate majority in 2014 and the presidency in 2016, I said; then they can repeal Obamacare if it means so much to them. But what they are doing right now is unethical and immoral and an embarrassment to boot. On the contrary, she said...
the men who did the same thing 240 years ago were called traitors but we now see them as heroes and patriots; what these congressmen are doing is no less important than the American Revolution.
I COULD. NOT. BELIEVE. that she just compared the idiotic antics of the Republican House to the American Revolution! I tried to point out that 240 years ago we were a colony and our forefathers rebelled against an outside colonial power; the Republicans in congress are doing no such thing, they are quite literally attempting a coup of their own government, are causing severe hardship to millions of people who are either out of work or who are suffering with lack of services, and are close to being traitors. She started with some argument starting with
well in the civil war...
and I really had to tune out for a minute and change the subject.

As I reiterated that Republicans should win a few elections and "repeal Obamacare" legally and legitimately, she told me that "she had heard" that

some parts of Obamacare cannot be repealed
and that, anyway,
the destruction of our healthcare system goes all the way back to the Clinton administration
(she didn't explain what was "destroyed" back then and how it relates to "Obamacare") and that
the Bush administration let the destruction continue.
She also did not explain how a law "cannot be repealed"; if they can "repeal" it to end the government shutdown today, why can't they repeal it in a few years? I didn't ask.

I was tempted to ask her why the problem was specifically "Obamacare" because, obviously, it was Clinton and Bush's fault, but I sensed another journey through the looking glass if I went there.

Help! How does one address such a series of outlandish claims?

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 0-)

    "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

    by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:26:09 AM PDT

  •  Faces are not their friends (11+ / 0-)

    I know several people like this (mainly Fox-watching, low information, easily swayed individuals) and they will not (WILL NOT!!) accept any facts.  Most especially ones that contradict their inner reality.

    I don't even try any longer - I share things I know are fact based and if people are so inclined to look them up, that's on them.  I just don't have the inner fortitude to argue the crazy with them.  It's like screaming into the abyss.

    I'd prefer my peace and using my time and energy in a positive direction (not that you aren't - this is just me) to effect change where I may have some influence. Yipping at moronic right wingers who will never change is fruitless to me.

    (And yes, your friend is very, very wrong on all those pieces.)

    "The force is really rather strong with you, Luke" - Eddie Izzard (I miss you, La 3/5/06)

    by Bexley Lane on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:31:59 AM PDT

  •  The US Is Ranked 37th in Health Care By the World (14+ / 0-)

    Health Organization, or close. All the countries ahead of us do not use private for-profit insurance to pay for it.

    This music video was made during the debate.

    Ah, I see we've fallen behind another country to #38.

    Either it's government single-payer or private not for profit insurance.

    The leading health system in the world is France's.

    One of the most infuriating aspects of Obama's tepid promotion of his signature reform was that he never gave even a hint that the American system he was trying to reform was not already #1 in the world. All he said was we pay more for "no better" outcomes.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:34:10 AM PDT

  •  Tired of backwards (12+ / 0-)

    stupidity...
    Our NC governor and repug legislators are denying healthcare to at least 500,000 people as they piously preach BS in incomplete sentences.
    :(

    "Lets show the rascals what Citizens United really means."

    by smiley7 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:39:03 AM PDT

  •  We can't say that we aren't #1 that is soooooooo (5+ / 0-)

    Unpatriotic.

    We just cannot handle the truth.

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:40:14 AM PDT

  •  Just smile... (8+ / 0-)

    and pat her on the head. No matter how many facts you throw at her, she'll never believe them. Work on informing those who can use the information.

  •  The only way she will change her mind is if FOX (8+ / 0-)

    News and BreitBart change theirs. You are fighting a losing battle. She will never listen to you on this. That is the friend she is. You will either have to accept her as FOX and BreitBart have made her or not.

    PS She can't possibly know the medical particulars of others because of HIPPA.

    PS2 I am not sure going to a DR not allowed at the local hospital is the best idea, I wouldn't do it.

    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

    by 88kathy on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:44:42 AM PDT

    •  I'm inclined to agree with... (14+ / 0-)

      ...those who advise you to drop it.

      My mother-in-law came to live with us in France after her husband passed away. She was 83 and a 24/7 FOX waycher, which she could continue to watch here on Sky satellite TV.

      She benefitted greatly from the French healthcare system, which she praised to high heavens, anmd yet was up in arms when told by FOX that Obama was trying to introduce a very very mild copy of it in the US.

      We could never ever get her to reconcile that cognitive dissonance. She was like a fish cursing water.

      I think you're wasting your breath.

      OVER HERE: AN AMERICAN EXPAT IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE, is now available on Amazon US

      by Lupin on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:54:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  a fish cursing water. I love that! (6+ / 0-)

        Ayn sucks. Please know I am not rude. I cannot rec anything from this browser. When I rec or post diaries I am a guest at some exotic locale's computer.

        by Floyd Blue on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:49:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And it is difficult for them to shut off the Fox (5+ / 0-)

        and watch even broadcast news.  There is a degree of built in paranoia that feeds the fear that they have - all fostered by the Fox.  The logic is perfect and circular.  If the news goes against what Fox tells me then that news is propaganda and aimed at me from some vast librul system that wants to control me.

        "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

        by newfie on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:50:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have often thought about why people who are (4+ / 0-)

          outwardly sane, some of whom are in my family, and who are kind to people they know would buy the hate and lies that Fox/Rush shamelessly ply them with.

          I have come to the conclusion that for many of them it goes back to racism or bigotry, even if those prejudices had not been outwardly expressed over the years.  The election of President Obama brought those formerly suppressed feelings back to the surface.

          Fox/Rush first validates their prejudice, they tell them it is OK to hate people who are different.  Fox/Rush makes them part of the "tribe" first so that they are willing to believe whatever they are told.  It is a cult which includes many "well meaning" people, but people who cannot deal with diversity of thought or community.

          “The future depends entirely on what each of us does every day.” Gloria Steinem

          by ahumbleopinion on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:55:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  When my Dad came to visit a few years ago, (4+ / 0-)

        I told him my house was a "Fox-free zone". He wasn't happy about it but gradually became his old, lovable self. I sent him a letter afterwards telling him that I noticed when he watched Fox he became so angry and mean. He's off it now but I think for some people it's harder to give up than cigarettes...or heroin!  

      •  propaganda works (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue in NC

        and this is the kind of examples that prove it.

    •  I have long ago accepted this family as they are, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah, 88kathy

      although I cringe when one of them comes out with such factually incorrect stuff.  Back at the beginning of the Bush presidency disaster I used to get into huge fights with her, but gave that up and vowed just to coexist and avoid political topics.

      She is more a part of a closed circle of fundamentalist "Christian" friends than a Fox "News" watcher herself; that does not preclude her from getting her Foxaganda indirectly from those friends. Its one of those cases where her rightwing brainwashing makes me sad rather than angry; she is a dear friend who would do anything for me (except, possibly, vote Democratic).

      re: PS1: I think the elderly friend herself and the friend's daughter told her the pacemaker story; the doctor who told her the "license suspended" story wasn't commenting specifically about that woman but was making a general claim. However, that doctor is also a far-rightwing fundamentalist Christian, so even his opinions about such medical/legal issues are questionable. Oh, and now I remember that the elderly patient is currently under Hospice care at home; my friend told me that once a Hospice practitioner is assigned to a patient then some of the Hospice practices take precedence over Medicare. If that's true, I don't know what on earth it has to do with "Obamacare"!

      re: PS2: I didn't understand that "hospital privileges" thing anyway. Yes, the guy is an MD; yes, he is fairly highly regarded even outside far-rightwing circles. Anyway, what would he do in a hospital in the first place? He does such things as hyperbaric treatments and IV treatment with supplements right in his own clinic; I don't think he's a surgeon, for example.

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:10:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  aren't rwingers and teabaggers against hospice? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue in NC, 88kathy
      •  Regarding the friend in her 90's (5+ / 0-)

        with the congestive heart failure and pacemaker - I would think that she would be at far greater risk of dying on the operating table during the procedure than she is of immediately dying from the congestive heart failure (which sounds scary but can actually take years to be fatal)

        Isn't it possible that the risk/reward analysis in her case simply favors no surgery? Not to mention all the potential infections and complications she would be subject to in the hospital.

        “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR

        by Phoebe Loosinhouse on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:49:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're right...I actually tried to do some (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          88kathy

          research on that to determine the truth.

          But...but...but...DEATH PANELS!!!!!!!!!

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:56:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In most families that would be just a (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue in NC, 88kathy

            common sense type of decision.

            If she really wants the pacemaker regardless and wants to go full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes, I guess that is her prerogative, although I really don't know.

            I do know that if I were her doctor or hospital in those circumstances I would make her sign a gazillion releases holding them harmless due to the high risks involved. The irony is that the family agitating for the surgery probably would turn around and sue for malpractice based on what a poor candidate for surgery she is/was if there was a predictably bad outcome.

            “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR

            by Phoebe Loosinhouse on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:06:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Perhaps the claim that "any doctor who replaced (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              88kathy, Catte Nappe

              her pacemaker on a cash basis would lose his license" is true, because doing so would be such a violation of established medical principles and medical ethics that it would constitute criminally-negligent malpractice.

              "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

              by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:24:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I am trying to pick an age when I will not have (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blue in NC, chimene

          surgery. I think 90 would be well beyond that age I can't decide upon. How long to heal - time remaining = worth it?

          Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

          by 88kathy on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:37:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Founding Fathers' Marine Hospitals (4+ / 0-)

    Perhaps you could point out that in 1798 our Founding Fathers mandated that privately employed sailors be required to purchase health care insurance.

    Congress Passes Socialized Medicine and Mandates Health Insurance -In 1798

    In July of 1798, Congress passed – and President John Adams signed - “An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seamen.” The law authorized the creation of a government operated marine hospital service and mandated that privately employed sailors be required to purchase health care insurance.

    Keep in mind that the 5th Congress did not really need to struggle over the intentions of the drafters of the Constitutions in creating this Act as many of its members were the drafters of the Constitution.

    And when the Bill came to the desk of President John Adams for signature, I think it’s safe to assume that the man in that chair had a pretty good grasp on what the framers had in mind.

    The bold text is by me, but I think it might be the bit that drives the point home for her.

    “We can always count on the Americans to do the right thing, after they have exhausted all the other possibilities.” - Winston Chuchill

    by se portland on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 05:59:59 AM PDT

  •  She wants to live in her alternate universe. (5+ / 0-)

    Clearly, she is not interested in being enlightened by facts.  She will seek out those who agree with her, and give her more fodder for her conspiracy theories.  I also suspect that racism must have something to do with her unshakable views.  I'd let it drop.  It will only raise your blood pressure to try to convince her.

    "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

    by SottoVoce on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:04:10 AM PDT

    •  I actually think (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue in NC, high5

      that there is a global initiative that plants these ideas via Fox and other fundamentalist sources to try to keep the nutbags isolated here in the US.  I suspect the EU but I have not ruled out the possibility that the Scandanavian countries are responsible.  OR it could be a worldwide council.  Come to think of it, maybe Fox is part of it - they are owned by an Ausie.  And just why is there a UN building in NY - could it be that their American operations are coordinated there?

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:58:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  seems your friend has invested much (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC, PsychoSavannah

    in believing Faux & Frightwing radio lies and propaganda, and won't be easily pried out of her self-made prison.
    Not even to consider that perhaps doctors have ascertained this elderly patient cannot tolerate surgery.....confirming the "death panel" LIE.

    Medicare won't allow her to get her much-needed pacemaker because of Obamacare and because she's too old to bother with.
    Being trained to hate Obama, I suspect your friend will believe anything that confirms her pre-existing erroneous beliefs.

    "Tax cuts for the 1% create jobs." -- Republicans, HAHAHA - in China

    by MartyM on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:15:11 AM PDT

    •  I see above that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue in NC, MartyM

      this is a rightwing Christian fundamentalist.  Nothing will work for her.  Everything is answered to support her fundamental beliefs - otherwise the person's entire life will collapse.  So when their is no answer there is a mystical force type answer.  It really is a perfect argument if your goal is to never ever alter your view.

      I, personally, would choose not to have such people in my life if at all possible. But then again I was raised in an extremely logical and rational family.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:03:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What your friend doesn't seem to (4+ / 0-)

    realize is the ACA is the COMPROMISE plan.....the one that all the republicans got to muck around in and change and hand off their sweetheart deals to their moneybag supporters.  If it had gone the way most of us wanted, it would be Medicare for all with "premiums" taken from income sources during working years.

    The more I talk with people of a middle - or lower-middle class income, the more I am realizing they are just resentful of ACA because it doesn't hand them free insurance.  That is what they want.....and now they are finding out that it really is still for-profit and the parasite insurance companies still get their pound of flesh, they just have to honor their contract a little more than before.
    It's 100% capitalism with a small leash put on it and nothing more, really.

    It was maddening to watch that sausage being made....watching republicans strip out all the provisions that would have made it worthwhile.  But, here we are....and we just have to work harder to bypass the people like your friend and elect folks who want to fix it.

    Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

    by PsychoSavannah on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:19:01 AM PDT

    •  Yep! Of course, that doesn't stop them from (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PsychoSavannah, Catte Nappe, chimene

      shrieking their usual bullshit:

      Passed in the dead of night!
      No Republicans voted for it!
      There was no debate!
      Nobody even bothered to read the bill!

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:41:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  2 years of debate..... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue in NC, chimene

        a gut-wrenching 2 years it was too!

        As for the "nobody read it" and Nancy Pelosi's famous "quote" about not being able to know what's in the bill til they pass it....that was because there were 2 different versions that had to go to committee.  Until the Senate and House version were passed to committee and then reconciled, no one knew what was going to be in the bill.  That reconciliation has to happen BEFORE you know what's in there.

        Amazing how that could be so twisted, isn't it?

        Don''t be too hard your friend....she gets a lot of really bad "information" and just doesn't have the time or know how to filter through it and read the nuance.  I would avoid the subject altogether and just let her do what she's going to do.

        Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

        by PsychoSavannah on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:51:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Give up. This one is too far gone. nt (4+ / 0-)

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:21:37 AM PDT

  •  Perhaps start with the fact (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC, i dunno, basquebob, chimene

    that her Marine Officer son is getting socialized government provided single payer medicine and is none the worse for it.

    You friend probably doesn't have health insurance, due to pre-existing conditions (she seems to be a hypochondriac, after all) so she is going to quacks who, since not much is really wrong with her, she considers to be her life savers. So, she is correct that the ACA won't let her continue playing 'patient' on the insurance premium dime (if she ever was in the first place.)

    every country in the world where health care was socialized had been an abject failure
    would include the United States, with Medicare, Military Health Care and the Veteran's Administration Health Care, but also includes England, France, Germany, Japan, Taiwan, Sweden, Belgium... the list goes on. She had no real criteria for deciding whether a country has been an abject failure because she has no idea what contries she is talking about.

    "The problems of incompetent, corrupt, corporatist government are incompetence, corruption and corporatism, not government." Jerome a Paris

    by Orinoco on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:33:30 AM PDT

  •  Start with simple questions... (7+ / 0-)

    ...that aren't really questions.

    1) "Well, the ACA exchanges are directing people to PRIVATE INSURERS.  Any PRIVATE company that wants to participate can do so.  I don't see how that could be "socialist"."

    2) "Yeah, there are tax breaks and subsidies to help people buy health insurance, but that money is going to PRIVATE INSURERS in most cases.  That seems just like farm subsidies, oil & gas tax breaks and all the rest; I don't see why that's "socialist""

    3) Run her numbers through the exchange and see if she gets a decent deal.

    4) "How is this different from Medicare?"  (That's a good one, because if they like Medicare, well, it IS socialized medicine; if they don't like Medicare, then you go back to the PRIVATE INSURERS as a difference for ACA coverage...)

    The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

    by wesmorgan1 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:34:56 AM PDT

    •  Excellent points! As for (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      basquebob

      #3, she is covered by her husband's employer's policy, so she probably wouldn't be eligible for a Marketplace policy under the ACA.

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:43:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Falure in other countries? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC, newfie, martydd, chimene

    If universal health care systems have been "abject" failures in every other country, why aren't there movements in all of those countries to repeal them and go back to pure free-market systems?

    There are no such movements because people in those countries are overwhelmingly satisfied with their universal health care systems and would be appalled at the thought of going to a U.S.-style system.  

    Ask you friend if she can name one significant British politician who want to abolish the National Health Service.  Not even Margaret Thatcher went down that road.  

    •  But...but...but...they're all coming HERE (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chimene

      to get "real" healthcare because they can't get it in their own countries. Droves! They're coming in droves!

      And so it goes...

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:46:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your friend sound like a moran. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blue in NC, SouthernBelleNC49
        •  She does indeed. The scary part is that she is (0+ / 0-)

          actually very intelligent and quite well-educated.

          It seems that the fundamentalist "Christian" propaganda that started, oh, 30 years ago softened her up for the rightwing nutbag propaganda that followed, so much so that reality has been driven out of her mind by the lies.

          "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

          by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:03:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is hard enough to maintain (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue in NC

            a belief in a religion that is pretty much based on very mythical things - especially if one learns that the same myths are embodied in many other religious - a whole lot of virgin births out there.  But when you invest your life completely in such things AND you add a whole heaping load of other mindboggling mysticism, you cannot allow a single thread to be pulled out or your whole belief system and thereby everything you stake your life on collapses.

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:18:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Wait! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue in NC

      you think that someone who believes that nearly every other country in the world is an abject failure will can even name a British politician?  Or be willing to think that healthcare works in these desolate wastelands beyond the wall protecting the US from anarchy and mayhem.  I doubt she has ever been outside a 50 mile radius of her home.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:07:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Alot of Americans who don't have insurance (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe, newfie, blue in NC, chimene

        but cash & need a same day surgery procedure (no emergency of course) are getting those done outside of the US?

        What's it called...? Medi-vacations...? I dunno the name of it but there are "travel agents" setup to get patients the surgeries they need without the mess & expense of US hospitals.

        An example of a "free market" choice? There might even be a (biased?) documentary out there about this subject?

        It's the costs. It's the denial of inusurances, tests, procedures, etc.. that is the American way?

        •  My boss (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blue in NC, chimene

          was on vacation and had a medical event for which she received services - not what you want to happen on vacation but....  She is awaiting the bill but was clear that the services received was not only excellent but far less than it would have cost her under her insurance at home.

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 09:14:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  61% of British are happy (4+ / 0-)

    with their health care system, vs. 24% of Americans.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/...
    Surveys show that people in other countries like their systems, but I doubt that your friend will believe it, unfortunately.

  •  The latest I heard- (5+ / 0-)

    is that Muslims are somehow exempt from Obamacare/ACA.  

    This person still can't find it in the law or give a link or article, and he still insists he knows it for a fact.  I gave up on him.  

    Uninsured cancer survivor

    by ArtemisBSG on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:51:18 AM PDT

  •  As for the "abject failure" of that soshulist (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimene

    healthcare in every country it's been tried, this incredible diary by Jerome a Paris from four years ago is a "must-read".

    I'll have to figure out a way for my friend to see it without directing her to the Great Orange Satan. ;-)

    "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

    by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 06:51:42 AM PDT

  •  I got into a similar 'debate' yesterday. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC

    And, unfortunately, I'm an extended guest in the person's home.

    He must have gotten his latest insurance bill and the rates have gone up. Thanks Obamacare, I hear.

    I mentioned the $200+ rebate check I got from my health insurance company because of the ACA and he absolutely refused to believe it. Refused. And went off on a tirade about health insurance being wealth insurance, not about living longer.

    Oh! And his wife, one of my oldest and dearest friends, went on a few weeks ago about how one of her friends has emigrated to Australia and been 'forced' into government healthcare there and the quality has been horrible. I asked why her well-off friend didn't just get private insurance and go to private hospitals. "Oh, they don't exist there" (subtext, that is what we in America are headed for). This is nonsense, of course.

    There is no point arguing with these people. Absolutely nothing you say is going to change their minds that the ACA is going to kill them and everybody else they know.

  •  'nutrition, vitamins, and alternative therapies' (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC, sillycarrot

    that's treatment they give to people who really don't have anything wrong with them ... and if her doctors are scaring her like that I suspect their want to create a relationship in which she's depended on them.

    •  Very good point! I have no idea what, if anything, (0+ / 0-)

      is the efficacy of those treatments. But I would imagine that creating highly-dependent "true believers" is essential to the financial success of some of these practitioners.

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:06:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The jungle of lies (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC

    is like a Gordian knot, try to untwine and it becomes soon a fools errand. I think only a personal epiphany or a wake up call could get them of the secret world inside the wardrobe.   Particularly the elderly, in many cases the suffer form a weird distorted nostalgia for something that never existed and fear for something that's not coming. The son seems more capable to understand the real scope and suffer from the crazy policies of the right

  •  Your friend isn't the only whacked one (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC

    out there....I got a FB post from a teabagging acquaintance informing everyone that the phone number for ACA spells out fuckyo.  

    Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

    by PsychoSavannah on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 07:06:15 AM PDT

  •  with therapy and anti-psychotic meds (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC
  •  My Experience (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC, Catte Nappe

    Recently, I have had separate outings with two intelligent conservative Republicans that I know.  They are rich and don't want to pay any taxes, so at least they are acting in their self interest.

    What I noticed is that they are growing more and more angry.  Sort of like when you are a coach losing a game you think you should win.  At first you know things will turn around, then you hope things will turn around, then you just start screaming at you players and telling them to wake up because they should be winning.  Then you go home and cry.  Then you regroup.

    I think the GOP supporters are at the stage where they are screaming at the players.  We are right, why aren't we winning?  Why do you guys suck so bad?  And their rage is only stoked by the constant barrage of junk mail and Facebook postings and Fox News telling them that Democrats suck and should never win anything and that any win ruins the entire country.

    Maybe you just tell your friend, "I am sorry you are losing.  I know it must be hard when FoxNews tells you that you should be winning, but eventually even Karl Rove had to admit that Mitt Romney lost Ohio."  

  •  I couldn't get past the 'every other country' crap (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, blue in NC

    so here are infant morality rankings (#1 least deaths per 1000 births, 1995-2010 averages), the US ranking 34th out of 188 (notice who's 33rd)

    #    Country or territory   
    1    Singapore
    2    Iceland
    3    Japan
    4    Sweden
    5    Finland
    6    Norway
    7    Luxembourg
    8    Czech Republic
    9    France
    10    Slovenia
    11    Switzerland
    12    Germany
    13    Spain
    14    Austria
    15    Belgium
    16    Italy
    17    Denmark
    18    Netherlands
    19    Australia
    20    Israel
    21    Ireland
    22    South Korea
    23    Portugal
    24    Canada
    25    United Kingdom
    26    New Caledonia
    27    Greece
    28    Brunei
    29    New Zealand
    30    Macau
    31    Cyprus
    32    Croatia
    33    Cuba
    34    United States

    Infant mortality by country

  •  I ordinarily wouldn't say this (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC, chimene

    But I think this one is a hopeless case. Even if you were armed with all the facts and sources in the world, she's clearly not going to believe a word of it. The only cure is time and experience. Perhaps as the ACA is implemented, and she expriences no negative effects, and possibly even positive effects, her views will modify.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 08:36:21 AM PDT

  •  You've been talking to my mom? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue in NC

    "You can't write good satirical fiction in America because reality will quickly outdo anything you might invent." - Philip Roth

    by jancw on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 08:48:04 AM PDT

  •  Darwin (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chimene

    Your friend is an idiot and there is no hope for her.  But your replies to her aren't helping.
    The ACA is predicated on giving the insurance companies money and requiring them to provide services they promised.  No socialism involved.  That would be a start.

    •  I've never agreed with her that the ACA is (0+ / 0-)

      "socialist", ever, in a reply to her.

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 11:20:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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