Skip to main content

One Saturday afternoon my son and I met at a downtown Seattle park. I remember the day because it was one of the last that my son was lucid for very long. He has an older friend He wanted me to meet.He was a Native American named John Williams. I met many of my sons friends, John was much older and hard of hearing. He was deaf in one ear. He love to carve. When you looked at his face,you saw alcohol,pain, memories from something that hurt him in the past. He felt My son should get a room in a new homeless shelter that allowed you to drink, few of them do. I asked him to watch over my Son.He held my hand and said he would.
John was know to be able to walk listen to music and carve with a tiny knife. One suuny
afternoon a policeman orders him to stop. John keeps walking towards the cop and the cop kills him.
When I heard that I wanted to hurt that cop. Johnwas no more dangerous than an old lady. It was in the middle of the afternoon.
That murder cost the city Of Seattle a huge settlement.
I have no desire to be a cop. You make life and death decisions in less than a second.
In the case of Mr. Williams, the cop just wanted to shoot his gun.
When you are in front of the White House you really should have figured out your really not being looked at  as anything but  a terrorist. You are being watched by a thousand eyes. Our country has the most sophisticated security equipment built.
I will never be convinced the police did not know that they were dealing with anything
but a crazy lady trying to crash her car into the white House.
I know women blow themselves up to meet Allah. Do they take their children as well?
The car is going around in circles, block the car, teargas?  stun gun? She moves away
from the White House,block her car from from coming back.
I wasn"t there and all of this was moving fast. All of the nations finest people who watch over our leader have no idea how to deal with a single lady driving crazy with her baby next to the white House..........Really?
Another chapter needs to be addedto their training manual. How to deal with a woman acting crazy with her baby inside.
I happen to be Bi-Polar. Suicide is not what she was trying to do.She had two sisters. The baby would habe been left wth one of them.
The police got it wrong.


Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  An Automobile is a dangerous weapon. (19+ / 0-)

    One which she was wielding in a very dangerous fashion.  She was ramming cars and apparently trying to hit officers on foot.  The whole situation is tragic, but given the circumstances as we know them I can't fault the officers for shooting her.

    "That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything ... There would be no place to hide." - Senator Frank Church

    by jrooth on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 10:32:23 AM PDT

    •  message (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      David54, Barbara Marquardt, lyvwyr101

      When I am three thousand miles away and stupid in such matters,I wont put up a huge argument. I find it sad
      nothing could have been tried to cause a different outcome.

      •  What would you suggest they should have tried? nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        •  LAPD uses spike strips to blowout the tires. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bush Bites, Odysseus, gfv6800, lyvwyr101

          Maybe a little of those billions that go to Homeland Security can go toward a higher tech version to protect the WH... LAPD used a spike strip to assist a woman in a runaway car once. They saved her life and maybe others.

          •  Sorry forgot the link there... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

   and here's a video.

          •  I was surprised they didn't try to immobilize her. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lyvwyr101, Vet63

            ....with something like that or even shooting the tires out.

            •  I heard a report about this on NPR yesterday (0+ / 0-)

              I've never shot a gun in my life, and I have no plans to do so, but apparently shooting the tires of a speeding car is difficult for all but the most skilled marksmen.  Most regular cops, which is what many of the folks responding to this incident were, wouldn't be capable of that, and might have hit people instead.

              "We *can* go back to the Dark Ages! The crust of learning and good manners and tolerance is so thin!" -- Sinclair Lewis

              by Nespolo on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 01:20:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  message (0+ / 0-)

                Around the White House I would argue they have cops
                who could flatten the tires.They could have gone to the rear of her car, smashed out the window and grabbed the kid.In Seattle they once used massive water from a water truck.

            •  Yeah, me too, short of second guessing though. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              old mule, lyvwyr101, Vet63

              Now that it's over it's on the police to explain to the public what happened, what went right, and what went wrong, and what will change. And listen to public reaction.

              There's plenty of support for law enforcement for them to be honest enough with the public and set a new fucking example.

              Otherwise they're cultivating a national perception or belief by the public - especially for people of color and people under emotional stress - that they'd better run for their lives at the mere hint of being confronted by police. If the nation's police and first responders want the public to fear them with our lives - to expect war zone behavior - that will have dire consequences.

              •  My opinion (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                of them is already rock-bottom and will remain rock-bottom until I see conduct that I believe actually reflects law-enforcement in this country.

                Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

                by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:00:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  message (0+ / 0-)

                You cant tell me they didn't know she had no gun.In Seattle,They once used water, massive pressure. How about breaking out the rear window and grab the kid?
                Cops with vests on could have kept that car from going
                anywhere.I would not feel that proud saying I had no idea
                how to stop an unarmed lady with a baby other than killing

                •  Car bombs are part of our world today. (0+ / 0-)

                  That is simply a reality and for DC especially so.  I don't think it's reasonable to assume what anyone knew or didn't know or that anyone walked away feeling proud. They just need to figure out better ways to their job.  

                  But, the bottom line is that what happened to that lady was her fault, tragic, unnecessary, heart breaking, unfair, unjust, preventable, but on her, even if, as seems to be the case, she was out of control. A cop, with a gun, and a badge, tells you to do something you do it, you roll over if you have to and do whatever, or your life is at grave risk. Run and assume you'll get shot.  Changing police procedures after the fact or punishing a bad cop won't help you if you're dead. That's the rule in the street. How "fault" is assigned after you're dead is not important to the dead.

        •  message (0+ / 0-)

          I wasn't there. I was saying the smartest men and women
          who are trained in this sort of thing MUST have had other ways.Whats wrong with making sure the car cant move,
          go to the rear,smash the window and grab the baby? Mom
          turns around,people in front grab her.That cant be done?

        •  tried? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joy of Fishes, lyvwyr101

          Two or three of the hundreds of police and official cars could have just parked before and behind her? And waited her out? They would have found out soon enough, with in an hour at the most, if she'd had a gun.

          we talked about this at my house. I said, "she did not commit a death penalty crime but she got it any way", and my friend here said "What if she would have had a car bomb?"

          The police shoot insane people all the time- the penalty for being outside while mentally ill is death, frequently, in this culture.

          What was the ratio, on the scene, of criminals to police agents? No one in an official capacity could have figured out a better ending here?

          I about felt sick when I heard about this, I have to say.

          I buy and sell well trained riding mules and American Mammoth Jack Stock.

          by old mule on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 03:47:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What about all that (0+ / 0-)

            specialized training and the billions and billions of taxdollars we've handed them?

            This was the best solution they could come up with?

            Aren't they trained to think quickly---act decisively and respond with the appropriate options?

            Why does shooting people---tasing people---and/or pepper spraying people seem to be the ONLY option available for them?

            If they are only using bullets---tasers and pepper spray---then that's all the taxpayers should be paying for!

            Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

            by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:06:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  message (0+ / 0-)

            If she had a bomb,she would have used it. I had no idea
            babies go to meet Allah now. Come on! The smartest cops
            in the World are there. They had no other idea how to stop
            an unarmed crazy lady with a baby. They had to shoot her. I am so proud.

        •  Well--we've (0+ / 0-)

          given them millions in options---haven't we?

          Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

          by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:56:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  message (0+ / 0-)

          In Seattle once,They used massive water hoses. The pressure was something to see. I would have picked many
          ways to stop the car,send people to the rear of the car,
          smash the window and grab the child first. They knew she had no gun.Think outside the box.To kill a lady with no gun and a baby in the car,suggests they might have tried

        •  message (0+ / 0-)

          water hoses, smash rear window, grab the child, spikes.
          smash front window when she was stopped instead of
          standing there with guns pointed at her. She had no gun
          and they knew it. I will bet they had vests on.I wasn't there but someone could have come up with something else!

    •  It's not about "fault" but improving procedures... (7+ / 0-)

      ...proven - tragically in lives lost - to be "faulty". Plenty of average citizens employ impersonal, sometimes courageous self assessments in everyday jobs to improve quality and outcomes. We all depend on it. It seems intuitive that police in constant contact with the public would be masters at raising the bar continuously. The diarist is simply stating the obvious from these two cases - there's a lot of room for improvement.

    •  Given their current training, and the mindset of (4+ / 0-)

      law enforcement, esp. around the capitol, I agree. However, I think it was a mistake, a bigger mistake than just the decision the officers made on the ground. They were doing their job, following their training, but they were also coping with their own adrenalin.
      I hope we can change police procedure to respect life more and to respect the mentally ill as humans with equal worth and rights.
      We need to look for different tactics and means for officers to reduce the need for deadly force.

      You can't make this stuff up.

      by David54 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:26:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  message (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        David54, lyvwyr101

        I wish you would run for office. I agree with you.

        •  My mother was diagnosed and committed to the (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joy of Fishes, lyvwyr101, Vet63

          state hospital in 1951 after the birth of my older sister.
          I was born under hypnosis.
          She was basically a test subject for every therapy that came down the pike.
          Things gradually improved for her thanks to her incredible strength of will and the support of her family, (and the improvement in therapies) even though she had decades of life-threatening physical health problems.

          Mom's greatest strength was her love for all living things and especially her family. She coped with her severe pain and difficulty by focusing on the needs of others.

          You can't make this stuff up.

          by David54 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 03:53:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your Mom (0+ / 0-)

            Your Mom sounds great! All I am asking for now is a plan
            in how to deal with people like that poor lady. If you read me,You know I have a son who would do something like that. In my post I talk about an old deaf man I met
            through my son who was killed by a cop. He did not hear
            an order to stop. No people around him,he was just walking. They murdered him.

    •  From what I heard reported she was out of the car (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lyvwyr101, Vet63

      when she was shot.

      "Work is the curse of the drinking classes" - Oscar Wilde

      by Farkletoo on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:17:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That was my first thought. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      But my second thought was why didn't they shoot the tires and/or why don't that have tire shredders in that city?

    •  mssage (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I wasn't there.The officers had to save lives.its sad when
      the most powerful nation on Earth has no way to stop an
      crazy lady/ Once in The Police chief turned on fire hoses
      and blasted the folks in the car. Fire trucks work.

    •  I can. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Why do we spend millions of dollars providing them with so many options and the means to utilize those options if killing a person is the only option they are willing to use?

      Why do we bother training them if this the best they can come up with?

      Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

      by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 06:55:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sorry, I disagree. (19+ / 0-)

    Of course neither of us was there.  But if someone is attempting to use their automobile as a weapon at the White House, they cannot expect a sensitive reaction.  You are asking the first responders to assume, at the risk of their lives, that there is no explosive in that vehicle.  

    I'm sorry someone so ill was unable to control her impulse, but you cannot blame the police for this one.  

    The unhospitalized mentally ill are a problem this country desperately needs to face.

    Still enjoying my stimulus package.

    by Kevvboy on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 10:34:02 AM PDT

  •  5 or 6 people surround her car with guns drawn, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CitizenOfEarth, mookins, lyvwyr101

    so she flees.  Umm, who wouldn't?  I've been pulled over for traffic tickets before, but I've never been gang-rushed by officers with guns drawn like that.

    The rules to monopoly are fair and apply equally to all. So what is your problem with joining a game-in-progress where all the properties are bought and the bank is empty...???

    by ban48 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 10:34:39 AM PDT

    •  message (5+ / 0-)

      Being by the White House was not good for her. Come on, she wasn't close to getting in. All of these bright guys
      had no other way to deal with her? Maybe they did"nt.

    •  who wouldn't flee? anyone that is not mentally (10+ / 0-)


      are you really trying to say that that is what you would have done?  wow

      "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

      by MRA NY on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:04:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Depends if you see the guns first or the badges (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Barbara Marquardt, lyvwyr101, Vet63

        first.  So you are telling me if, unprovoked and for unknown reason, you saw a gun pointed at the window of the car into the rear seat where your kids was, you'd stop what you are doing, take careful consideration of the entire environment around you, ponder it for a few seconds or minutes, then come out with your hands up...???

        And, in any event, does it even matter?  Sorry, I'm not on-board with the idea that the moment you committed a traffic violation you've surrendered all your rights up to and including not expecting to be shot.

        The rules to monopoly are fair and apply equally to all. So what is your problem with joining a game-in-progress where all the properties are bought and the bank is empty...???

        by ban48 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:20:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  unprovoked and for unknown reason? um, i thought (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greengemini, roycej, johnny wurster

          we were talking about the reality of the situation here.

          a traffic violation is what you are calling ramming a barrier at the whitehouse? (not to mention speeding through red lights at 80 mph)

          "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

          by MRA NY on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:32:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that is after she panicked and started to flee. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I'm talking about the initial confrontation.  And I haven't see the footage of the 'ramming of the barrier' so I can't really comment on that.

            I would like to see the 'ramming of the barrier', so if you have a link please do post it.  All the footage I've seen starts with several cops with guns drawn closing in on her, then she panics and flees.

            The rules to monopoly are fair and apply equally to all. So what is your problem with joining a game-in-progress where all the properties are bought and the bank is empty...???

            by ban48 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:36:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the video you see is after she rammed the barrier (0+ / 0-)

              at the white house and fled at 80 mph thru red lights to the capitol.

              so, she had police cars and ss chasing her who surrounded her by the capitol and you are saying she didn't know they were cops?  did you see the police cars and those in uniform in the video?

              you are really off base.

              "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

              by MRA NY on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 01:09:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When she finally did stop, she got shot and killed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                . So who is off-base...???

                The rules to monopoly are fair and apply equally to all. So what is your problem with joining a game-in-progress where all the properties are bought and the bank is empty...???

                by ban48 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 01:34:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Or, try this. Lets have an experiment: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            lets have 5 people with guns drawn gang rush a car stuck in traffic, and we can collect stats on how many people come out with their hands up and how many flee.  Whose game for this?

            The rules to monopoly are fair and apply equally to all. So what is your problem with joining a game-in-progress where all the properties are bought and the bank is empty...???

            by ban48 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:39:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  message (0+ / 0-)

              your in the car. your tires are flat,they have your window in the back almost out. This stuff happens in seconds.
              you have no gun,baby out,stungun time.
              I wasn't there and I am no cop. It seems SOMEONE could have done SOMETHING else.

        •  If I just drove into a WH gate ... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kevvboy, johnny wurster, Nespolo

          I'd know precisely why a gun was at my head. That would not be unprovoked or for an unknown reason.

          I understand that the woman was seriously ill, but I also understand why in this case there was no benefit of the doubt.

          We're in the middle of a serious political debacle with both sides running hot on emotion.

          So, yeah, let's pick on the unpaid Capital Police for reacting in the way they were trained.

          by Magenta on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:02:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We also think everybody in the world is (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lyvwyr101, Vet63

            as-focused on this as we are.  She could've been on a f&*^$ng milk run and the only thought running through her head was "Who put this damn barricade in the road?  I don't see no damn parade!"

            Are we really going to roll with: Everyone should know how dangerous it is to travel in DC right now...???

            The rules to monopoly are fair and apply equally to all. So what is your problem with joining a game-in-progress where all the properties are bought and the bank is empty...???

            by ban48 on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:16:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is a STEEL Barricade (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nespolo, Joy of Fishes

              That is ALWAYS there -- and she rammed it and knocked an SS agent onto the hood of her Lexus Infiniti. Back in June some nut sent a Jeep into one of those barricades. He was lucky, he walked away.

              The Secret Service HAD to assume that this was an attack, that is the way they're trained. And she was trying to hit people with her car.

              If we had better Mental Health treatment available to everyone, this might not have happened. I'm sorry for everyone involved, including the two LEOs that ended up in the hospital.

            •  message (0+ / 0-)

              Good point. I think the EASY thing to do is kill the person.
              Why cant Homeland Security, FBI, Washington Police have SOMETHING in their playbook to deal with a crazy lady?

          •  Have they had any (0+ / 0-)

            other kind of training besides shooting to kill?

            Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

            by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:32:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  message (0+ / 0-)

            SERIOUS POLITICAL DEBACLE?  What does the Republican
            take over of our country have to do with a crazy lady?
            Thank the Republicans for the pay issue. Last time I looked,I am allowed to give my thoughts. It maybe that they did the ONLY thing you could do.I have been wrong
            so many times in my life I have lost count. I still maintain
            they could have tried something else before killing her.

        •  message (0+ / 0-)

          I am saying no gun is pointed at the rear of the car, glass
          is flying .kid is removed,your confused because you have
          people grabbing you. I would have thrown ten people at you. I have watched ill people being subdued. They get confused when many things are going on at the same time. Again,they knew she had no gun.

        •  message (0+ / 0-)

          WHAT? this was not a routine situation. No one I am quite
          sure expected her to come out. I want to make her turn
          around and see whats happening,then you grab her. Whats"s wrong with my thinking?

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      5 or 6 people surround her car. That was the moment
      to do something other than stand there. They had vests on
      I would have flattened her tires,smashed the rear window
      grabbed the baby. I WOULD NOT HAVE JUST STOOD THERE.

  •  IMO, cops were on a hair trigger and overreacted. (14+ / 0-)

    The whole country has gone Terrorist Batshit Crazy -- afraid of their own shadows.

    A bunch of us had a discussion on this today in another diary. See this comment thread.

    No longer Hoping for Change. Now Praying for a Miracle. 🍞 & 🎪

    by CitizenOfEarth on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 10:47:35 AM PDT

  •  Yes, both are heart breaking cases... (5+ / 0-)

    ...and hopefully they can be honored with lessons learned and changes implemented.

    It's been long overdue for the police everywhere to modify their procedures and training so they're equipped to handle the mentally and/pr physically impaired. Payin fines is irrelevant - courts should require that the police report to the public remedial action and track its implementation.

    The goalposts do seem to have shifted and should be fixed immediately. Suspects should be taken alive - even is they present a threat. That's the key measure of success. A dead suspect is a police failure.

    Police and emergency personnel are compensated for the heightened risks they face every day with wages and retirement plans befitting their jobs. Those risks are theirs, however, and not to be shifted to the public.

    The women in DC was being treated for a disease known to possibly, temporarily cause irrational behavior she would never otherwise consider. How many prisoners have been unjustifiably jailed for similar conditions left untreated altogether?

    Being responsible requires learning lessons once, not over and over, and chains of accountability.

  •  I also felt that it might have been avoided, but (5+ / 0-)

    without video of the final minutes, we will never know how justified their actions were.

    It is sad, but without being there, I cannot say whether or not it was wrong.

    "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

    by MRA NY on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:06:16 AM PDT

  •  It's very sad, but the SS can't take chances. (9+ / 0-)

    They need to be 100% perfect, 100% of the time when it comes to protecting the President and others. I wish this didn't happen for sure, but I am generally going to be way inclined to give the Secret Service the benefit of the doubt.

  •  It's a tragic situation, but I don't blame ... (10+ / 0-)

    the police for how it turned out.  It's a miracle that she didn't kill anyone merely from driving down Pennsylvania Avenue at speeds estimated at up to 80 mph, running stoplights as she went.  Frankly, if D.C. had been as full of people as it normally is, the result might have been much worse.  

    The police didn't have the luxury of knowing, with 20/20 hindsight, that this was a young mother who was suffering from severe mental problems. They just knew that she had rammed her car into a barrier at the White House, rammed at least one police car, injured at least one law enforcement officers and seriously threatened the lives of several others (as well as the lives of anybody else who might have been in her way), and then headed straight to the Capitol Building at a high rate of speed, and that she obviously had no intention of surrendering.

    Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

    by leevank on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:18:10 AM PDT

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      I agree with everything you have written. For a moment,
      the car was stopped,surrounded by cops, I can think of two or three things that might have been tried. I mention water all the time because the police in Seattle have used it.Your right:I am no cop.

  •  Perhaps you can share how they might have known (10+ / 0-)

    her mental status, history, or even her identity during the event.

    I will never be convinced the police did not know that they were dealing with anything but a crazy lady trying to crash her car into the white House.
    •  Because It Started At the WH With Words Being (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lyvwyr101, Vet63

      exchanged. Video and audio of that has not been released but with some conversation before things began happening fast, there was definitely the opportunity to spot some kinds of unusual mental or emotional state.

      It's possible that she got partway into an off limits area at slow or ordinary speed. There was reporter and witness reports yesterday consistent with that.

      Till someone releases video or a detailed description of the beginning of the events, we have enough to presume there was at least a little opportunity to assess the woman.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:25:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As first responders (0+ / 0-)

      aren't they both paid and trained to look at all the options?

      If there is only one option available---why do taxpayers foot the bill for so many others?

      Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

      by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:37:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps I can share? (0+ / 0-)

      You know within seconds she has no bomb or gun. Smarter people could have saved her life. They took
      the easy way out.

  •  No but the police love killing non-white people (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    In or outside a car.

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:30:20 AM PDT

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      If she had been black, she would have been shot in seconds.
      I am white but Racism is alive and thriving in this country.
      In Florida, its legal to kill black people because they look scary and can beat the crap out of you.
      (May Zimmerman rot in Hell.)

  •  I hope some good may come out of this tragedy (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eyesbright, gmats, Nespolo, lyvwyr101, Vet63

    When someone with a mental illness commits mass murder, society has to delude itself that person was actually evil in some way.

    But in this case, most people see her actions as nothing but tragic, especially if they have seen the vibrant pictures of who she once was.  Hopefully it will lead to some solutions when it comes to mental healthcare.

    Unlike the parents of those who do kill, many of whom struggled to find help for their child, at least her family and her child will receive mostly support and not blame.

  •  For me it comes down to whether she still (0+ / 0-)

    had control of the car.  In that location they had to assume that the car had a bomb in it and there was a potential of mass casualties if they could not stop the vehicle.

    If the vehicle was already stopped it is less clear.

  •  Yes. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nespolo, rlb, Vet63

    When she turned her car into a weapon and wouldn't let up, even after 3 tries, then yes.

    And this is coming from someone with Bipolar Disorder, with children with Bipolar Disorder.

    I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

    by second gen on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:55:47 AM PDT

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      I have Bi-Polar disorder. I have been told I am Hypermania.I still am not sure what 'HyperMania" is.
      The doc says "Mike I have seen you get in that state".
      So I lay some blame at the doctors or family for not making sure medications were not being taken. I run 12 to 15 miles a day to stay calm. I have never met a person
      with our disorder do what she did. Anger and rage would have driven her to more I think.
      Stay well!

  •  I think that even though they might have not had (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nespolo, rlb

    to, they gave her a heck of a lot of chances not to be shot before they finally did shoot her.  My initial reaction to the news was the same thought, why did she end up dead?  But after hearing many more details, she really wasn't on the same par with John Williams, Oscar Grant, or so many of the high profile police killings of people who didn't need to die.  She really was endangering lives with her driving.

    She might not have had to die, but her death was nowhere near as cavalier as so many have been.

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      I guess your saying Dr. that other lives were at stake here.I think SOME cops should have been able to shoot
      out her tires. Someone like you could help draft a plan
      for the police to follow in the future.
      Thanks for writing.

  •  They had to shoot her, if that's what you mean (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That they killed her is secondary--sometimes people who are shot die, sometimes they live.  

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:24:23 PM PDT

  •  They don't appear well-trained for these things. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    They had plenty of chances to block her off but they weren't coordinated enough to do it.

  •  What Happened to Shoot Out the Tires (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, lyvwyr101

    before shoot to kill, especially since it's been reported that the woman's car crashed then she was shot dead?  In that order.

    Caveat: I don't know if that report truly represents the sequence of events, I only heard it issue from the mouth of capitol cops and spokespeople in their press conference about the incident.

    Readers & Book Lovers Pull up a chair! You're never too old to be a Meta Groupie

    by Limelite on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:34:41 PM PDT

    •  Low profile kevlar tires are (0+ / 0-)

      a shitty target and and will still drive fine, even if the bullets hit their target they would ricochet off the aluminum wheels and go somewhere else now.  
      Shooting the driver stops the car every time and she was smashing into anything and anyone. Most of the rounds that hit the car are probably still in the car because of the background.
      Sometimes crazy gets you killed. It sucks.

      I saw the video and the gunshots came well before the final crash. I'd hope that if you were my partner officer and someone was hitting me with a car on purpose you would stop it as fast as possible.

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      We were not there. Just scream for better plans on having the cops deal with the ill before killing them.
      Thanks for writing!

  •  The Arabic TV Video Begins in the Middle of the (3+ / 0-)

    series of events when the car was at the sidewalk nose into the curb, with around half a dozen officers surrounding and drawn handguns, talking and motioning for her to get out. If the child had been sitting upright they'd have to have seen her, so I presume the kid was lying down or on the floor. Very plausible considering the events.

    At least at that point --and this is after the incident began at the WH and she had fled up to this point-- officers were not shooting first. And her race would've been obvious as well.

    Then she backed up a little and tail ended the side of a police car behind her, which was blocking any escape, so she gunned it in forward up over the sidewalk and hard right to get back onto a road. That caused half the officers to have to jump out of the way, and after another second or so as she was receding a number of them opened fire at that point.

    Some moments later, at the end, she was in a different location with different officers.

    I've not seen any video or detailed discussion of that either. If she was shot fleeing her car that's troubling. But by that time she'd had one and almost certainly two opportunities to cooperate with police who were dealing with her nonviolently, and she fled both, the second time nearly injuring several of them.

    It seems to me a case of 3 strikes and you're out. Anyone might reasonably conclude she was not going to cooperate if approached, by that point. And given the location, unfortunately the outcome is not a surprise.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 12:35:11 PM PDT

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      I think you have studied it better than I.
      I know being Bi-Polar,your not thinking,your doing. Somewhere I wish a moment could have allowed for someone to try a way to grab her without killing her.
      Thanks for writing!

  •  When I got into LE in the 80's (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I don't know how many times I was told by the old guys that they never pulled their weapon in 20+ years.

    Bad Cop

  •  She may have been lost and panicked (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, lyvwyr101

    We don't know and annonynous authorities are spinning tales of "white powder" found in a letter to her boyfriend at her apartment and pushing rumors that are uncorroborated about delusional episodes in the past.  

    Eyewitness at the back entrance to a White House parking g lot say she pulled into a driveway and tried to immediately turn around and leave possibly even before an apparently of duty plain clothes person carrying a lunch cooler began beating on her car with his hand.  She was said to have slowed down then, turning to avoid someone - possibly the same plain clothes unidentified  person - who was moving a portable metal barrier to block her exit.  

    At the point who can say what was in her mind?  It was NOT apparently however trying to get into see Obama.  From where she was the White House wasn't visible.  Pennsylvania avenue was where she went next - was this where she came from?  If so the street funneled her in there in some regards.  ABC news reported that many tourists make the same error.

    •  Come on thats silly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Johnny Nucleo, rlb

      If you are lost you ask a cop not run from/run over one.

      If you act like that in a car you MUST be stopped before you kill someone. Too bad you don't like the outcome, I don't either.

      •  What's silly about no CCTV or dash cam? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lyvwyr101, Vet63

        The "barrier" she "rammed" was placed in her path as she was moving already.  The person who initially accosted her was plain clothes off duty and carrying a cooler.  The police car she hit was behind her and she backed into it as seen on news video.  Look at the pictures of the car where she was shot to death- the front is undamaged.  Is that the car of someone who did what they are saying she did or do we detect a little spin going on?  

        I'm not nominating this woman for mayor or sainthood I'm just saying it might be wise to look deeper into what started her desperate actions of escape.  

      •  message (0+ / 0-)

        If you don't speak out, nothing changes. She is dead.
        Have a better plan for the next crazy person. Killing should
        be the last choice not the first.
        Thanks for writing!

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      She was confused. Come on now! at no time no one had  ANY idea how to stop her other than killing? I know police
      make fast  choices but the car at one point was stopped,
      surrounded by cops, that was the moment to do something.
      Thanks for writing!

  •  this was a tragedy (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I tend to think a lot of the police confrontations are overkill, but we have a really explosive situation in this country right now. It seems to me that this time the police should get the benefit of the doubt because when I first saw the 'shots fired at the Capitol' report I was thinking some nutbag or a bunch of them with an assault rifle.  They probably are on somewhat higher adrenaline than they might be were we not in a national crisis.

    sometimes the dragon wins

    by kathy in ga on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 01:14:45 PM PDT

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      I would argue the Republican take over has nothing to do
      with this lady.When the car was stopped,why didn't she fire?
      She had no gun.
      She is dead now. I am asking for better Police plans for the future.
      Thanks for writing!

  •  This is clearly a tragedy, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Nucleo, Vet63

    but if someone is trying to drive a car towards the White House, refuses orders to stop, and then barrels at high speed towards the Capitol, I don't think it's fair to second-guess officers who are sworn to protect the lives of government officials.  

    "We *can* go back to the Dark Ages! The crust of learning and good manners and tolerance is so thin!" -- Sinclair Lewis

    by Nespolo on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 01:26:25 PM PDT

    •  problem is: she didnt do what they claim she did (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lyvwyr101, Vet63

      Look at the front of her car in photos/ video.  The front is completely undamaged.  

      It's likely the barrier she "rammed" at the White House was placed in front of her moving vehicle - or behind her moving vehicle AS she attempted to leave an APPROACH to a restricted area.  

      What's clear so far is that she was NEVER violently crashing her car TOWARDS the White House or Capitol at any time.  

      Doesn't anyone find it curious that no maps diagrams or news photos have surfaced of this barrier she "rammed" or that we have seen any CCTV or dash cam video from the D.C. Authorities?  

      Isn't it worth pondering that no official has gone on record saying in any detail what eye witnesses saw happen at a back entrance to a hidden WH parking lot that Pennsylvania Ave funnels tourists into on a regular basis?  Civilian bystanders reported she was initially accosted by a plain clothed off duty man carrying a lunch thermos.

      How is it no authorities are touting the bravery and pinning a medal on this guy?  

      Again, I'm not suggesting authorities on the scene(s) did anything other than what they felt was expected of them, but I do caution anyone and everyone to question the "official story."  In the end an unarmed dental hygienist is dead and her baby shot at seventeen times apparently while sitting in a high- sided car that couldn't travel.  

      Her family says vociferously that she was not delusional.  

      Her "boyfriend" is quoted by authorities but has yet to be interviewed by reporters. Anonymous police sources leak that a letter with "white powder" was found in her apartment.  Days pass and nothing comes of this.  

      Look at the front of her car- what did she "ram?"

      The cop car that was totaled hit a deployable barrier- the same sort of barrier that trapped her INSIDE the approaches to the Capitol building complex.  

      I'm urging people to look deeper and beyond the spin.  The DC police chief told a gaggle of reporters "shots were potentially fired" at the WH location, deliberately leaving the impression that she might have fired them when he knew at that time she was killed unarmed and with her vehicle disabled.  

      Where she initially APPROACHED a secure checkpoint the White House is not visible.  She got OFF Pennsylvania ave when the Capitol complex was approaching her vision.  

      The only thing we know for certain this woman did was try to escape with her baby.  Was she wrong to do so?  Yes certainly.  But was her intent to attack try White House and the Capitol building?  Or was she running away in a complete panic from events she wasn't comprehending correctly?  

      Where is the CCTV cam footage from the WH parking lot guard booth?  Where are the news photos of the barrier she "rammed?"  What happened to set her off?  Where was she going that day and why?  Isn't it worth reserving some judgement until these questions are at least addressed, much less answered?  

      •  These are huge questions. (0+ / 0-)

        And the actual answers should not surprise anyone.

        Mayan Word For 'Apocalypse' Actually Translates More Accurately As "Time Of Pale Obese Gun Monsters."......the Onion

        by lyvwyr101 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 07:46:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But, with all due respect, (0+ / 0-)

        How were the cops supposed to know her intentions?  They can only act on what they see, and given the sensitivity of the location and the margin for error that they face (literally zero) in terms of protecting government officials, it's an unfortunate truth that they can't afford to be as patient and understanding as we would expect from LEOs in other jurisdictions.

        "We *can* go back to the Dark Ages! The crust of learning and good manners and tolerance is so thin!" -- Sinclair Lewis

        by Nespolo on Sun Oct 06, 2013 at 09:45:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  message (0+ / 0-)

        Add my vote to the above comment!!!!
        You covered things I should have!
        Thanks for writing

        •  Doing what seems best (0+ / 0-)

          The authorities on the scene did whatever they thought was best, I'm willing to concede that.  What bothers me is how quickly spokespersons began spinning the news and how easily the press swallowed it.  

          All I can repeat is that people should demand real answers and be given access to the evidence. The front of her car is either completely undamaged or else so lightly damaged as to not be visible in any photos I've seen.  What then was she "ramming" into actually and how?  

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      It is okay after some lady with no gun and a baby in the car is killed;to ask for smarter plans on dealing with situations like this/
      Thanks for writing!

  •  NRA's insistence that every citizen is entitled... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joy of Fishes, lyvwyr101, Vet63

    ... to a cop-killing arsenal has not helped the plight of the mentally ill who get into confrontations with the law.

    I hope Congress took note of the fact that the ACA will make depression screenings part of the preventive care that our insurance policies must cover, and that no one need ever fear that a positive diagnosis will result in future denial of insurance coverage.

    The President's 2014 budget also expands programs to detect and treat mental illness in young people - the kind that led to the massacres in Aurora and Sandyhook.

    Hope there's something in there for post-partum depression. They say half of all cases go undiagnosed and untreated.

    “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
    he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

    by jjohnjj on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 02:02:31 PM PDT

  •  The sadness (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

       WE don't have a gov.
        A rotating mechanism with teeth in & across the roads around, the CAPITAL.
        Billions and BILLIONS wasted spying people's minds...

    March AGAINST monsatanOHagentorange 3/25/13 a time warp

    by 3rock on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 11:36:33 PM PDT

    •  message (0+ / 0-)

      All of that and no way to stop a sick lady with a baby.
      They killed her because it was the easy thing to do.
      Thanks for writing!

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site