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There are two stories in the NYTimes this morning concerning the Libyan raid and the capture of Qaeda leader, Nazih Abdul-Hamed al-Ruqai. The first speaks to the knowledge and approval of Libyan PM Ali Zeidan. The second tells of the abduction of the PM in retaliation. The abduction took place in the early morning hours and he was released unharmed in the afternoon. Together the stories give us a sense of the delicate political situation in Libya.

Join me across the break for a discussion.

Yesterday I wrote a related diary that delves into the legality and appropriateness of that raid.

Under US law the administration is on firm ground. Morally the administration is on firm ground. The one question left in doubt is the legality under international law. I think the first story in the NYTimes mentioned above addresses that issue. We don't have an extradition treaty with Libya and the political situation there would make formal extradition difficult if not impossible. There are those in Libya who insist Nazih Abdul-Hamed al-Ruqai should be tried in Libya. There are problems with that. The crimes were not committed in Libya nor was Libya the victim of those crimes. The political and security environment in Libya would not permit justice to be served. Nazih Abdul-Hamed al-Ruqai is under indictment in the US and there is an international warrant for his arrest yet he walked the streets of Libya openly and as a free man.

Now I'm going to get personal and try to explain why the charge of warmongering against me causes me much distress.

I am a veteran. I served from 6/63 to 11/73. The Vietnam War is a major element in my life and, like many others, I have struggled to come to terms to the betrayal of being lied into war. I would imagine Iraq veterans are going through a similar process. Over the years I have invested much time and energy trying to understand that history and have arrived at a place of peace. That peace was shattered by those insults and accusations.

I am very disappointed that the dkos community has utterly failed to deal with the behavior of the few people here who are hostile to all things military. Perhaps we should return to the draft rather than a volunteer military least veterans are to become second class citizens if not outright pariahs.

It takes a vet to understand a vet.
 

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (12+ / 0-)

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 05:42:55 AM PDT

  •  Do with it what you will. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FiredUpInCA

    I'm not particularly inclined to stick around and deal with the assholes today.

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 05:54:30 AM PDT

  •  thanks (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv, I love OCD

    I wanted to thank you for your military service.

    I am a proponent of better moderation for DKos

    Do not raise the debt celing. Eliminate it

    by GideonAB on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 05:58:58 AM PDT

  •  Just imagine if the roles were reversed (0+ / 0-)

    that's probably your answer right there.

  •  It's a big community, Bob. (9+ / 0-)

    And in such a big community there will be more than a few people will be driven by their own righteousness to the point where they do not treat others respectfully.  Now, the way things generally work around here is that true assholes show their cards again and again and again and within due time are dealt with by the community.  And fairly decent people who have asshole moments (which frankly includes the vast majority of us) get to stay.  Sometimes we get schooled for our moments, sometimes we realize we are being dicks immediately, sometimes we don't and sometimes we just move right along without any further ado.

    Bottom line:  don't let a few assholes or a few asshole moments get you down.  It isn't an indictment of the whole community.  And it isn't a rejection of you by the community.  You know who and what you are.  It just so happens (in my opinion) that those of us who have served  tend to see things from a different perspective which can be misconstrued by others.  Ain't but a thing.

    Oh and I wrote this without going back to see what you were talking about.  I might do that but I don't think it is absolutely necessary.

    "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

    by newfie on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:02:03 AM PDT

  •  The hostility is jealousy, your service and (0+ / 0-)

    sacrifice shames them because they would never be capable of it.

    Imagine the most profound idea ever conceptualized occupying this space. Now expect exactly the opposite. You'll never be disappointed.

    by Gurnt on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:10:47 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, that's just BS. (9+ / 0-)

      I didn't call him a warmonger, I have no idea who did or why, but being against kidnappings, bombings, wars, or whatever, is neither shameful nor indicative of being 'incapable' of such acts.  The civil rights campaign, as well as many pacifist actions around the world were and remain incredibly dangerous for those involved, especially since they did not carry weapons or offer violence, and thus were even easier targets for those who would do them harm.

      Your comment is no better than those who might throw 'warmonger' around lightly, merely aimed in the opposite direction, an ad hominem casting aspersions upon the character of others who do not agree with you.

    •  I'm proud of having evaded the Vietnam-era (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      earlybird, Nada Lemming, ek hornbeck

      draft--despite having lottery #14 and using up my student deferment. Doing what I had to do then is among the most morally clear actions of my life.

      "Jealousy" is not a word that describes my actions then or my memory now... not at all.

      When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

      by PhilJD on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:27:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  thanks, just bob. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wee Mama

    i'm glad to learn from you that the PM was released unharmed. if it helps to know, i consider writing diaries like writing a book: it takes time, ya gotta know your stuff, use plenty of links, visualize having been a middle-school student once but having the internet (meaning i would have given my left eye for what we have now, except the knowledge transmissions would still be data-scooped, i guess.), generally set drafts aside for a day or so before publishing (if possible) and re-read carefully before finally putting it out there.

    i can't write diaries. i'm a bird, and i type with my feet, and all i know is i'm lucky to know not to even ask to join the poker table: all the luck i need.

    i'll share my luck with you, however.

    Addington's perpwalk? TRAILHEAD of accountability for Bush-2 Crimes. @Hugh: There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.

    by greenbird on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:18:07 AM PDT

  •  whoops, posted this in yesterday's diary by (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv, I love OCD, petral

    accident, so I'll repeat:

    Just a couple thoughts...

    thank you for your service and apologies for the horrendous welcome home you and others received.

    as was eloquently said by helpImdrowning ( in yesterday's diary), there are cliques that aren't worth engaging

    when you find yourself engaged with them, 'walk away' - i have to do that on a regular basis when others start spouting idiocy

    often, when you walk away, others WILL step in and admonish the namecallers; if you have a back and forth, few want to get in the middle of it

    believe it or not, it gets easier and easier to walk away - it also gives you the satisfaction of having not wasted your time on drivel being spouted by others.

    what i've suggested here in no way means that i think your response is unreasonable.  i hope you can put this incident away, for your own sake.

    "Don't Bet Against Us" - President Barack Obama

    by MRA NY on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:18:07 AM PDT

  •  Kind of stunning (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob, Sylv, FiredUpInCA, I love OCD

    people find fault with the Libya job, which involved no loss of life and captured a suspect who will now be tried in the United States District Court in Manhattan and will enjoy a level of due process and representation that most accused souls on this earth could only dream of. Of course, a drone strike would have been worse, an airstrike worse yet, an invasion really bad.
         What does that leave? Perhaps the tired image of democratic leaders hamstrung by their concerns for international opinion and incapable of decisive action, leaving the electorate to conclude they are incapable of conducting an effective foreign policy.
          In fact the diarist gave all of this discussion much more time than it was worth. This is exactly how a progressive administration should bring terrorists to justice, and no, to that end we don't need permission before kicking in the door and grabbing the suspect. Effective, civilized law enforcement sends one really clear message: if you commit a heinous crime, you will be found and brought to justice, wherever you may hide. That is nothing we need apologize for.

    •  I think if we are going to serve an arrest warrant (5+ / 0-)

      in another country it is both wise and right to get that country's permission, as seems to be the case here.

      Arresting officers in the US are bound by questions of jurisdiction, and should be abroad as well.



      Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

      by Wee Mama on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:06:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I generally agree with that statement (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        I love OCD

        Circumstances don't always permit all the formal processes. There are places in this world that have no rule of law. That said, even in Somalia I would imagine the government, such as it is, does what they can to facilitate any action we take there.

        Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

        by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:11:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sadly. the US is now among the countries (7+ / 0-)

          that have no functioning rule of law... and will be, as long as the Bush-era torturers are allowed to walk free.

          That said, would you be OK with international commandos whisking away John Yoo for trial at The Hague?

          When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

          by PhilJD on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:03:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I could be tempted but I don't think he would (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PhilJD

            be my first choice for such treatment.

            I agree that we no longer have the rule of law. I've held that position for years and please don't forget about those "too big to jail".

            Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

            by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:10:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Something about Yoo's smirk pushes my (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Just Bob, gooderservice, ek hornbeck

              buttons more than the others, but I certainly agree that he isn't the only candidate.

              I don't have the same visceral reaction to the Wall Street criminals as I do to the torturers. Not that I don't think they are culpable as well, but financial crime is nothing new here. Torture of prisoners isn't new either, but legally authorized torture marks a genuine and awful sea change.

              When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

              by PhilJD on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:19:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  To say (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Just Bob, Wee Mama

            grave harm was done to our rule of law, is not to say we have no rule of law. Our system can and will endure the insult of the Bush years and ultimately be better for it, as it endured the insult of the internment of japanese during WWII, or the Palmer raids in the 1920's or the violent suppression of unions in the 1890's. Perfection is not the standard by which any system of justice can be evaluated. Personally, if I had to be tried for a crime, I would far prefer the standards and practices of American due process to any alternative in any nation on earth. And before you zing me, let me add that I am a criminal defense lawyer and have been for a long time, and I am intimately familiar with our systems numerous shortcomings. Even still, I am aware of no other system, even Great Britain's, which safeguards the liberty of the individual as well.

          •  Whoops. Didn't see your comment before I... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            PhilJD

            ...made mine.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:33:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It's called extraordinary rendition... (6+ / 0-)

          ...and we railed against it when Bush did it. How would it go down in the United States, or at Daily Kos, if, say, Nicaragua chose to sent a special ops team to the United States to grab  and carry away one of the terrorists who murdered Nicaragua citizens during the contra war? Would we be saying, "Well, that's okay under Nicaraguan law?"

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:33:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's less extraordinary in this case. (0+ / 0-)

            It appears the PM was aware and condoned the raid, at least in principle. He was not necessarily informed of the timing in advance.

            Given the limitations imposed by the political environment in Libya, that may be the best we can hope for.

            Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

            by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:51:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I hope for the day when the U.S. stops... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Just Bob, gooderservice, Nada Lemming

              ...acting like the rules it demands others follow don't apply to it.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:56:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes and I hope for the day that there is no (0+ / 0-)

                assumption that military service creates a gulf between us. The sting of some of things said here lately is much deepened by the fact that I share so many of my values with those who have thrown insults in my direction that are based in misinformation and false assumptions.

                 

                Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:33:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  FTR, some of us who opposed the war you... (5+ / 0-)

                  ...served in did not (and do not) treat returning veterans with anathema. I was in Students for a Democratic Society, one of the leading antiwar organizations, I counseled people on the many ways to avoid the draft, I chose prison rather than go to Vietnam, but I also worked (with a group of others) to help returning veterans get jobs and other assistance that was not easy to come by in the days before the government actively denied that Agent Orange was poisoning them, that PTSD was real and that joblessness among veterans was a problem.

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:39:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I didn't intend to imply a gulf between you and me (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Meteor Blades, Wee Mama

                    The gulf does exist between some of the members here who have made some truly hateful posts based only on my life experience. We have much in common that has been disregarded just for the trill of taking a cheap shot.

                    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                    by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:46:06 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  We need to (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ek hornbeck

                Stop hoping and start demanding.   No vote,  no money,  no volunteering for anyone who doesn't believe in the rule of law.  

                It puts the lotion on its skin

                by Nada Lemming on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 11:14:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  So holding him on a boat in (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ek hornbeck, PhilJD

              International waters while we torture him and don't provide him with an attorney,  is that lawful in your book?   If they followed the rule of law he'd be on the docket in New York y now.  

              It puts the lotion on its skin

              by Nada Lemming on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 11:12:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  and you know he's being tortured? (0+ / 0-)

                Please provide a link.

                Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 11:42:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think there's even some chance there's a (0+ / 0-)

                JAG officer representing his interests.

                Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 11:44:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  The rule of law applies (0+ / 0-)

                His status is uncertain at the moment. He may either be a POW or a criminal defendant. We don't have prison ships. He's being held in the brig of the USS San Antonio. I would imagine he is being interrogated by FBI and/or CIA personnel.

                That status may change as soon as he is turned over to the chief federal public defender in Manhattan. That seems to be in the works:
                http://www.nytimes.com/...
                Dateline October 8, 2013

                A terror suspect captured in Libya over the weekend, and now said to be undergoing interrogation on a Navy ship in the Mediterranean Sea, should be appointed a lawyer, the chief federal public defender in Manhattan wrote on Tuesday.

                The defender, David E. Patton, asked that his office be appointed to represent the suspect, Nazih Abdul-Hamed al-Ruqai.

                Mr. Patton wrote to a judge that Mr. Ruqai was entitled under the law to be taken “without unnecessary delay” before a magistrate judge, where he would also have the right to a lawyer. He said the appearance could be conducted by video teleconference.

                Since he is under indictment in federal court, I'd be very disappointed if every care wasn't being taken to avoid harming the prosecution's case.

                Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

                by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 12:20:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  I tried to find the incidents you quote, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    quill, triv33, JesseCW, Nada Lemming

    but the links I chose led to another diary in which you were complaining about being called a warmonger without actually linking to the incidents, so I still don't know the original circumstances surrounding 'a failure of community moderation'.

  •  Hmmm... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv, I love OCD, wilderness voice

    As someone who has also been accused from time to time of being a warmonger, my advice is that you just have to let this shit roll off, difficult though it may be.

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:27:44 AM PDT

  •  I'm with you until the last line. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sylv

    The idea that it takes a vet to understand a vet not only contributed to the marginalization of veterans from public life, including discussions where they have something of unique value to offer, and it also defeats a bedrock notion of liberalism which is that we can, by force of will (specifically goodwill), walk in the shoes of others.

    By the way, I think the best response to someone who says you're warmongering is to point out that people who are antiwar are always saying it's a mistake to treat essentially police-worthy actions as pretexts for war...and in this case we carried out the quintessential police action, which was to swoop in a pick someone up for trial.  catching people in bad-faith arguments has always been a pleasurable hobby for me, and I recommend it to you as well!

    You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

    by Rich in PA on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:29:12 AM PDT

  •  kidnapped PM released unharmed. (0+ / 0-)

    was good news.

    followed your links to the comment threads in two different diaries. seems like i would have scrolled by those threads, if i had even entered the diaries in the first place, which i didn't, because of other diaries i was reading.

    i don't 'engage' in threads as much as i read diaries, whether FP or recent list, sometimes both. i do deposit comments or questions, but, like this one, they're not pearls, and i forget about them almost right away.

    i keep the classic 'enraged blogger' gif in the front of my toolbox, and replace my urge to join in with promises to myself to attend more local meetings before feeling capable of providing such useful discussion here. (failed promises, i must add, being a bird who sleeps after the sun goes down and most of these meetings are AT NIGHT.)

    Addington's perpwalk? TRAILHEAD of accountability for Bush-2 Crimes. @Hugh: There is no Article II power which says the Executive can violate the Constitution.

    by greenbird on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 06:43:17 AM PDT

  •  hmm (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob, Nada Lemming, ek hornbeck

    I see one place where a poster used the phrase "war monger" and then stood by it in two subsequent comments. It's open to interpretation whether that comment is HRable, but one user did HR it.

    Meanwhile, in the same diary, the diarist told a 5-bar TU to "crawl back under the bridge," and that comment got 8 recs and 0 HRs. And you told someone to "Kindly go to hell" -- which seems like it ought to be a wish that he suffer eternal torment, but who knows what it means these days? That comment hasn't been rated.

    I could go looking for other places where this battle has been waged, but I'm not sure I see a point. If several people have called you a warmonger, that's damn annoying.

    Community moderation can rein in some extremely abusive behavior, but it can't force us to be polite or fair. I think I try very hard to be polite and fair, but I could compile a list of people who probably disagree. (I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people have also quarreled with you.) I suspect that most of us believe that we would be unfailingly polite and fair if it weren't for Those Other People. And, indeed, some folks here are often very provocative in what they have to say about people who disagree with them. It's often a drag. I don't think it's really a failure of community moderation. I think moderation could work better, but I am not sure how.

    "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

    by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:06:34 AM PDT

    •  I'm not sure how to improve it either, other than (0+ / 0-)

      calling it out when it fails. We have a shared responsibility to each other.

      Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

      by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:15:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  down to the community (0+ / 0-)

        The majority supports the status quo which permits what happened to you.

        I would like to see this change and then a moderator could then enforce the collective will by making people NR and so forth

        Do not raise the debt celing. Eliminate it

        by GideonAB on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:40:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Civility is over rated. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, LaEscapee

      It's just another way to stifle opinion you disagree with.

      Other than that I'm 100% with you on the triviality of this complaint.

      If political debate is too taxing I suggest crochet.  The needle is blunt and there's only the one.

      •  yeah, we disagree about civility (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Just Bob, ek hornbeck

        Or maybe we don't so much. If the standard of civility is never to hurt anyone's feelings, well, some people just can't stand to be disagreed with, or to be rebutted point by point, or whatever.

        However, human beings have the capacity to influence (not compel) each other to be more or less rational through our choice of words. Here on Daily Kos, I try to be on the side of "more," and it doesn't prevent me from expressing my opinions.

        I don't see why Just Bob should have to expect to be called a warmonger as the price of "political debate" here. But I can't protect him from it, either.

        "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

        by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 01:13:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  US insistence on its exceptional (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PhilJD, triv33, Nada Lemming, ek hornbeck

    ...privileges of extraordinary rendition might just have undone what all of those hundreds of millions of dollars spent overthrowing Muammar Gadhafi accomplished.

    The military has a poor sense of international politics and presuming that it does has cost us thousands of lives and trillions of dollars of treasure over the past sixty-eight years.

    And of all wars, Vietnam is the classic case in point.

    People who served in the military don't become international political geniuses because of that service but too many parade their service as if that's a trump card to argument.

    And folks who were critical of all of the many wars the US has engaged in for the past fifty years and are continually slapped down in their opinions as "unpatriotic" or "I know I was in Vietnam" or other militarist nonsense are fed up of being right about issuess and being ignored.

    Now if you think this statement needs moderation, you are begging for special privileges because you had to obey an idiot chain of command for a couple of years and risk your life for nothing.  Because that's what service in Vietnam amounted to--trying to prop up a series of dictators that could never gain the support of their people because foreigners were indiscriminately calling them "gooks" and killing them.  If  you can't see the the huge military problem with that approach or the approach in Iraq of indiscriminately calling the folks we were liberating "sand niggers" and "ragheads" and then indiscriminately torturing and killing them, then you have not ground to talk about US foreign policy.

    I'm tired of the whining and the demands for privilege.

    50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

    by TarheelDem on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:30:20 AM PDT

    •  nonsense (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      I love OCD

      That's why the military is controlled by civilians.

      As to special privileges, no, service in the military in itself doesn't give any insight into international politics. It does make one more inclined to follow events and research what's happening in the world. It adds to a level of awareness that is lacking in so many others.

      Of course there are bigots in the military. The military is a subset of the general population. Please don't paint all of us with such a broad brush.

      Your dismissiveness reveals your prejudices.

      Your assumptions reveal your lack of goodwill.

      As to moderation, yes, I think your comment deserves to be hidden.

      Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

      by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 07:52:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Something more needs to be said (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      I love OCD

      Those who have attacked me in recent days have been proven factually wrong in every objection they raised.

      Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

      by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:00:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I guess I'm not finished with you yet. (0+ / 0-)

      In case you might wonder why I think your comment should be hidden, it due to your blanket assumption and insinuation that all veterans are ignorant bigots, yet you get recced rather than hidden.

      For the record, some of us are aware that there was a time in living memory when urban life in Afghanistan was modern and secular.

      Some of us are aware that we share a Roman foundation to our civilization with Libya.[1]

      Some of us are aware that education in Libya during Gaddafi's reign was more indoctrination than education.

      Some of us are aware that there is only 5% internet penetration in Libya and I suspect much of that is via smart phone. That leaves an information vacuum that is taken advantage of by the hate mongers.

      [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

      by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:18:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where does the word "all" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ek hornbeck

        ...appear in my comment with respect to veterans?

        Why is it that the United States fails to ratify the International Criminal Court, which could be a venue for trying the bombers of the US embassies in 1998?

        Why does the United States think that the only sovereignty that matters is its own?

        And when will there be more veterans who will start telling the folks who warned about intervention and escalation and who advocated immediate withdrawal "Thanks, we should have listened before allow the needless deaths of American citizens and the killings of millions of other people for nothing."  When will that realization occur beyond more than a few veterans who seem to be continually being arrested for expressing their freedom of speech and assembly?

        Where were the sane voices in Vietnam that were advocating against dehumanizing the folks whose freedome US troops were supposedly defending?  Where were those folks in Iraq and Afghanistan who told the chain of command, "No, Americans don't torture other people."  Where were they?

        Why should I defend the rendition of a prisoner to a US prison ship for "interrogation" outside of the provisions of US or international law?

        If you look at my history, you will see that I supported the action that the President took in Libya.  And supported his pulling back a bigfooting miltiary that was making the situation worse.  In fact I followed the events in Libya very closely because I had been following the Egyptian revolution on al Jazeera and then picked up with their Libyan coverage before the US was ever involved there.

        Because Gadhafi is a poor excuse for defending the rendition of al-Libi, especially because there is evidence that MI-6 allowed him out of the UK in order that he carry out an attack on Gadhafi.  And folks are researching the possibility that this might be another case of US-UK policy blowing back with attacks on US and UK interests.

        But those details don't matter as long as you can cite Leptis Magna, do they?

        Some folks have a long history of seeing my comments and they have some idea of where I'm coming from in what I say.  That's why they get recommended when they do.

        50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

        by TarheelDem on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:56:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Get real (0+ / 0-)

          You are actually hanging every fault of governance around my neck and demanding that I justify things I don't support?

          Why are you throwing up all these straw men?

          The amazing thing about this is that it all started with one comment by one person who was misinformed and made some bad assumptions. Now I find that many people are sharing those same false assumptions. It appears she has done my reputation great damage based on falsehoods.

          I'm not a right wing militaristic bigot. I do not favor an American Empire. I am not your enemy. Back off the fuck off. Please.

          Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

          by Just Bob on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 10:14:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is it? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nada Lemming, ek hornbeck

            New information about the Libyan raid?

            OR

            Failure of moderation?

            I addressed both rather directly.

            I never said you were my enemy.  I just challenged your call for censorship through moderation by outlining why it is that folks have an attitude about the military.

            On Libya, I challenged the US argument that it need not observe the sovereignty of the regime it help set up.  And gave reasons for why that was a poor argument.

            50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

            by TarheelDem on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 10:44:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You do seem to view pacifists as the enemy. (0+ / 0-)
            I am not your enemy.
            So much so that you throw the term around (often directed against folks who are most likely not even pacifists) as if it were an insult, in much the same way that a homophobe might call somebody (who might very well be straight) gay in an attempt to insult them.
  •  Uh......no. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW
    Perhaps we should return to the draft
    Amendment XIII

    Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

  •  Way in the back of my mind there is this light, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob

        burning the midnight oil…
        A: I'm 62, LUCKED out, met some hippies who educated me, dodged in Hawaii.
        B: Bloggin' slide by "those" sliggin their dump.
        C: During the height of the Egyptian crisis, the politicians were doing another whatever this "hostage" "oppression" gov is and Obama called Boehner early in the day. "Not available, will call back." Hours went by, The PRESIDENT had to call Boehner back. If in all my days, I ever thought a squeaker of the House would not call the PRESIDENT back during an international crisis.
        D: The midnight oil: I think to bring back the draft with conscious objectors doing Peace Corps (Core :), might STOP this insanity of "poverty oppression" to keep the soldiers of 1%'s fortune, from destroying this young nation.

    March AGAINST monsatanOHagentorange 3/25/13 a time warp

    by 3rock on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:03:49 AM PDT

    •  I'm a few years older (0+ / 0-)

      In 1963 I knew people in the Youngstown, Ohio area who had been out of work for 6 or 7 years and were still hoping to get called back to work in the steel mills.

      I enlisted.

      Vietnam wasn't on anyone's mind. We had about 16,000 civilian military advisers/trainers there, but no one was at all concerned about it as few people even knew about it. I didn't learn until 1966 that those civilians were discharged from the Army 3 miles offshore before they landed in Vietnam. That had been going on since 1954 or 55.

      I had heard rumors that the second Tonkin Gulf incident didn't really happen but was a weather related incident. Nonetheless, it lead to the Tonkin Gulf Resolution of August 1964 and we were at war involved in a police action.

      I never served in the war zone. I have never killed anyone and no one has killed me. I did earn a few promotions, married, had a couple of kids, and was living an uneventful life.

      It wasn't until the Pentagon Papers were published in 1971 that the public at large and yours truly began to fully understand the depths of the deceit. I finished my current enlistment and left the military in 1973.

      Had I known earlier what I know now, the course of my life would have been very different. I don't know if it would have been better but it would have been different.

      I read recently that 60% of the American people think we need new political parties. I agree. The Democratic Party serves the role of the old Eastern Establishment Republican Party. We could use a new party to reestablish a center left in American politics.

      If anyone out there would like a used copy of Tragedy and Hope by Carroll Quigley in excellent condition with original dust jacket, we can talk, but you might find a lower price at Amazon.

      These days I'm a bit overwhelmed by the tragedy and have little hope.

      In addition to these pragmatic goals, the powers of financial capitalism had a far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole.
      ~ Carroll Quigley

      Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

      by Just Bob on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 01:39:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I get your frustration and agree that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob

    ignoring the passion is your best bet.  I refuse to be intimidated by people who cherry-pick both facts and realities.  I just keep posting.  

    My friend who was blinded, had bowel and bladder function compromised, is HIV-positive due to unknown factors but related to being trapped under an AC compressor for 8 hours, and is still having glass, concrete and wood fragments removed 15 years later will be in New York for the trial.  She's thrilled that justice might prevail, that she, her fellow survivors and their dead friends might see justice.  

    She felt the same way after OBL was found and killed.  

    We often miss the details here.  The Pakistani governments okays drone raids in Pakistan.  The same day SEAL raid failed because SEALS wouldn't kill children.  Obama always seeks permission first, occasionally acts without it.  He never expects Pakistan or any country to admit they cooperated because he gets the internal politics.  We'd be smarter to attempt to do the same!

    I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

    by I love OCD on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 08:05:05 AM PDT

    •  That's because we're fighting their civil war (0+ / 0-)

      for them, of course they OK raids they helped supplied the intelligence for to get rid of threats that are mainly threats to them, not us:

      The Pakistani governments okays drone raids in Pakistan.

      And of course it's legal; Nixon made the claim the anything the POTUS did was legal, the last two administrations have established that principle in fact.

      •  Just saying we miss the nuances (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roadbed Guy, Just Bob

        in foreign affairs, and Obama doesn't.  Thank FSM.  And the idea that Obama and Bush are even remotely similar is the same kind of lefty brilliance that GAVE us Bush in the first place.  Or Reagan.  We are our own worst enemy when we go all purity politics.  

        I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

        by I love OCD on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 12:09:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, indeed (0+ / 0-)

          If there's anything Obama does well it's nuance, as exemplified by The Tuesday Kill List when Congress (yes Congress!!) has outlawed assassinations of this type . . .

          But I'll heartily recommend your comment for the level of irony in this:

          We are our own worst enemy when we go all purity politics.
          (I LOVE irony!!)  
          •  You have a problem with OBL on a kill (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Just Bob

            list.  Noted.  I don't.  I voted for the guy who told me the truth when he ran, (that he would get the architects of 9/11), and was impressed that he didn't pretend he wasn't going to kill them.  I guess you prefer the good old days when we were happy to be lied to because reality sometimes stinks.  

            IOW, he's not the first guy with a list, he's the first one to tell the truth.  I grew up during the years we were the pure, the proud, the good guys.  I resent that BS much more than I'm appalled by honesty.  

            I'm not looking for a love that will lift me up and carry me away. A love that will stroll alongside and make a few amusing comments will suffice.

            by I love OCD on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 05:07:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I'm a Vet and agree with another vet, Gen. (4+ / 0-)

    Smedley Butler who wrote a book about it, "War is a Racket".  I am against the U.S. global military empire and believe it is nothing more than the King's army as in the days or yore.  Same thing only different.  It's not to keep us safe from terrorists, it's for the ruling class to rape and plunder.  We have no right, they have no right.

    "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:49:33 AM PDT

  •  Some anti-war on the left are like PETA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob

    Sure, their ideas are good, but they take it too far. PETA started out as an organization for ethical treatment, and a faction turned into a group that terrorizes anyone who doesn't agree with their radical ideas. Some believe that we should just let our pets out in the wild to be free. Pet ownership is slavery. Never mind that most of our pets couldn't survive in the wild, and that animal ownership is a symbiotic relationship when properly balanced.

    That's kind of how I see it. There is no gray area for some. It's black and white, and if you don't see it their way, you're bad.

    I'd like to start a new meme: "No means no" is a misnomer. It should be "Only 'Yes' means yes." Just because someone doesn't say "No" doesn't mean they've given consent. If she didn't say "Yes", there is no consent.

    by second gen on Thu Oct 10, 2013 at 09:58:48 AM PDT

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