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As the community is busy arguing about the finer details of date rape in the Rescue to Recommended diary, Are We Doing Young Persons a Disservice by Teaching them No Means No?,  an interesting article came up in my Facebook feed, an article about the Men's Rights Movement and their new campaign, Don't Be That Girl.

In the fore-mentioned diary where a teacher encourages both teenage boys and girls to see how they could have prevented a date rape scenario (a question that has it's own problems and issues), Tara the Antisocial Social Worker praised a program that has reduced rapes by 10% in the communities where it has been introduced. It's called Don't Be That Guy.

Some men have taken umbrage to the campaign. Don't Be That Girl is their response. Their campaign uses the same images and graphics of Don't Be That Guy yet sends an entirely different message:

Just because you regret a one-night stand doesn’t mean it wasn’t consensual.
Granted, this blew up earlier this year in July but it's only today that I heard about it. And today I've been busy typing comments like a mad woman as I try to explain to folks that date rape isn't as mild mannered as it sounds and that rapists are people who plan ahead of time to commit a crime.

Our Western Culture has some serious problems when it concerns rape and I would hope that on a progressive website that we could at least agree that the words "No means No" were a beginning to change the conversation for the better. But I'm afraid that isn't so. In fact, the conversation here at Daily Kos is not all that different from the one that took place earlier this year in Edmonton.

First, let's talk about The Don't Be That Girl campaign in detail. It started in Edmonton, Canada with The Men's Rights Edmonton Association posting posters around the city:

The Mens Rights Edmonton association is taking responsibility for the campaign. One of its members, who did not want to identify himself, says this poster campaign was intended to counter the “Don’t be that guy” campaign that he says made “rape into a gendered issue.”

“We don’t blame victims for anything, we’re simply looking for an accurate discourse on the subject.”

http://globalnews.ca/...

This became a story after a Woman's Studies Instructor at the University of Alberta tweeted a photo of the poster with the accompanying text:

The tweet exploded with retweets and responses. The general consensus was that the men who started the Don't Be That Girl campaign were rape apologists and perpetuated a false stereotype:

“I think what their campaign is saying is that women lie about rape, about sexual assault to get back at a boyfriend,” said Karen Smith, executive director of the Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton. She cited national statistics as evidence that false reports don’t actually happen as often as some people may think.

“One to two percent of sexual assaults reported to the police would be false. And that would be the same for any other crime that would be reported to the police.”

But the responses weren't all negative. The association has found a lot of support as well. Global News Canada shared these responses from the Global Edmonton Facebook page:
Robert says, “No place in that ad does it say rape is right. It is okay to slam men but when an ad like this is out it suddenly is pro rape? Once again it does not say rape is right so why read more into it?”

Reid writes, “Why are “don’t be that guy” posters acceptable if the opposite aren’t? They’re making a presumption that all men are potential rapists and should be viewed and educated as such. False rape accusations are a reality. This sign is factual and correct.”

Chanceala says, “This ad actually doesn’t say rape is ok. It’s saying don’t be that girl that says whoo hoo let’s get it on and then cry foul after the fact. Women are not all innocent.”

Robin writes, “We are in danger of becoming so concerned with NOT being a “rape culture” that we swing the other way and demonize men in all circumstances, whether they are actually guilty or not. The “outrage” from people such as Don Iveson indicates to me that this is the way our community has swung already.”
http://globalnews.ca/...

How is all of this like a conversation about date rape on DailyKos? First, there is the assumption that date rape as a misunderstanding exists. Once again, Tara the Antisocial Social Worker points out in the comments that it is a fallacy that date rape stems from "miscommunication" or "misreading the signals" and gives us a link to read plenty of source material. And there are plenty of people in the comments that understand this and support this point of view.

Though there are many well-recommended comments, one of the most poignant has gone less noticed:

But the sad thing is that there are plenty of commenters that honestly believe if women communicated about sex beforehand that they would likely prevent rape from happening. Or if they avoided certain situations even though their peers are in those same places. The one that bothered me the most, however, included this in his comment:
Here is where I draw the ire of every woman on the planet but I am going to say it anyway.  The person who does not want sex has more of a responsibility to make that abundantly clear than the person who wants sex!  The person who wants sex thinks they are making it clear what they want by taking the other person back to their apartment, taking off some or all of their clothes and doing a lot of the rubbing and kissing and etc...  They believe that if the other person is willingly participating in all of this, it means they want the same thing.

The figurative saying that men are animals is correct but not just figuratively.  We actually are animals.  Ever see a male dog or cat around a female in heat?  How about a white tailed buck in rut?  They go nuts, they go raving mad to get that female.  I know that men are supposed to be civilised and in control of all of that but it takes incredible powers of restraint to so.  I have literally engaged in oral sex with a woman and moved up to position myself for entry only for the girl to say she didn't know me well enough to have sex with me.  It was like there was an animal in me trying to break loose that I had to hold back.  many women also do not realize that there is physical pain (AKA Blue Balls) that is REALLY painful and occurs when you are at that point and are stopped.  most women think this is a joke or a manipulation but it is real.

http://www.dailykos.com/...

I honestly didn't know how to respond to this comment. And this is only a small piece of the entire comment. How do we even begin to even unravel the culture that allows this kind of thought to exist? This man really believes that men are animals and that control of that animal instinct is so extremely difficult that it just may not happen in certain circumstances. And that when that happens, it's the fault of the person who couldn't say no in a graphic enough way for that animal to understand.

I have written many times about the film The Invisible War and rape in the military. The message from that film that needs to be repeated again and again and again is simple: Rape is not a mistake.

Rape is not a miscommunication between two teenagers any more than it is a miscommunication between a commanding officer and his subordinate.

Rapists target their victims. Rapists don't look or act in any one specific way and they often appear to be model citizens, above reproach.

Watch the film. Share with friends. And please, if you have the ear of a young man or woman, please help guide them in a way that is helpful and productive and allows for both young men and women to embrace their own sexuality in ways that are healthy.

Originally posted to A Progressive Military Wife on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 02:33 PM PDT.

Also republished by This Week in the War on Women.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Thank you, angelajean, (19+ / 0-)

    I am working on getting the ear of my cousin's young adult son who is experiencing emotional pain over a breakup and whose sexism is real and already ingrained in how he views and interacts with women. This diary is helpful.

    "Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass... it is about learning to dance in the rain." ~ Vivanne Grenne Shop Kos Katalogue!

    by remembrance on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 02:47:30 PM PDT

  •  Thanks angelajean you really (12+ / 0-)

    take on the tough topics .......

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 03:08:18 PM PDT

  •  Wow. (14+ / 0-)

    I watched an episode of "Different World" once that addressed this issue. I liked how they handled it. If she says "yes, yes, yes" right up to the point of penetration, and then says "no". That's it. You don't go any further. Go take a cold shower. Go to the bathroom and whack off. Whatever it takes. No means no. What came before the "No" is irrelevant.

    The guy who equated men to animals must be lacking one of the basic human organs: a human brain.

  •  i got into it w/ a rape apologist on huffglue (11+ / 0-)

    recently.

    actually, a lot of us did.  i got so fed up with his blame the victim stance that i finally told him that his intense need to apply blame to the young victim made me question whether or not he'd been charged for a similar crime.

    hope springs eternal and DAMN is she getting tired!

    by alguien on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 03:17:24 PM PDT

  •  Only yes means yes. If she didn't say yes, (8+ / 0-)

    She doesn't want it, and if you do it it's rape, no matter what else is going on. Period.

    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

    by zenbassoon on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 03:24:12 PM PDT

  •  That campaign is mild (9+ / 0-)

    compared to some of the MRA/MGTOW commentary you will find on reddit or some of the more popular blogs discuss men's rights/and issues regarding rape, sexual issues/relations and male/female relations. Essentially many of the men who write for and populate these blogs think of women as children, irrational, dangerous, and requiring domination and total subjugation ( not the consensual  or negotiated kind ) and as being ever so slightly less than human.  

    When 20/20 announced they were going to interview Paul Elam who is a self promoter who is a recognized member of the manosphere but who is himself controversial within it the boards lit up and continue to do so since the piece was postponed.

  •  Our closest relatives are chimpanzes, (7+ / 0-)

    who are some of the most violent and depraved creatures out there, in the animalistic sense.  But we as a species have obtained a different place of existence by confronting the natural tendencies in ourselves to conform to a system of laws and mutual benefit.  

    It is true that girls need to be aware of themselves in situations with boys.  Encouraging them to be careful about that and feel a sense of personal responsibility for their safety is doing them a great service.  Encouraging them to have the skills to protect themselves is critical, especially given that the justice system will never be a sharp enough instrument to stop rape by itself.

    But none of this justifies rape.  None of this changes the fact that there is something very wrong with a culture that says "girls need to be careful" but "boys will be boys".  We all need to be aware of abusive patterns in our society and take responsibility for it, whether we're boys, girls, teachers, parents, or coaches.  If affects all of us, and it won't change until all of us make it change.

    I remember attending a take back the night event at college, and a couple guys came and blew candles set before a fraternity house where a date rape had occurred.  I stepped forward and told them that instead of blowing out the candles, perhaps they should join us to mourn the victims of abuse.

    I wholeheartedly agree with including girls in education programs to prevent rape, but the Men's Rights movement really needs to focus on something else.  Maybe if they spent more time supporting an end to abuse and less time attacking victims, they'd actually be in a position to provide a positive way for men to become healthier and happier in general.  This action simply amounts to blowing out the candles of people whose lives were forever ruined by violence.

    Howard Dean will always be my president.

    by 4democracy on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 03:34:39 PM PDT

  •  i once worked for a guy (2+ / 0-)

    who was a big local player in the then nascent men's rights movement. he was not a neanderthal - I heard him talk for a long time to a woman who had launched an early groundbreaking lawsuit against sexual harassment in the 1970s. He seemed genuinely interested in her story, and saw his own work as a niche specific advancement of her own struggle... which had placed opening minds and changing things first.
     in his view, there needed to be treatment and support for male victims of abuse, as it is the best way to ensure the cycle does not go another round.

    As someone who was sexually abused as a child by a female babysitter, it was the first time I'd ever seen anyone acknowledge me as a person who exists demographically.

    Rick Perry - the greatest scientist since Galileo!

    by Bobs Telecaster on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 04:33:48 PM PDT

  •  Thank you, so much (9+ / 0-)

    I had to close out of that earlier diary, shaking in disbelief; so upset that I couldn't comment coherently.

    The fact that so many DK'ers supported the line that a rape victim might be MORE to blame than the rapist, that was horrifying.

  •  Thank you... I found the other diary (3+ / 0-)

    to be a product of the kind of rape-culture that truly alarms me, to the point that I decided to not participate in the conversation there at all; I was fairly disturbed by the kind of discourse happening there in most cases.

    I do feel, strongly, that it's victim-blaming behavior and is not ultimately as solutions oriented as the diarist would have it. Frankly, I thought it was snark at first.

    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

    by mahakali overdrive on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 06:42:50 PM PDT

  •  Thanks, this SO needed to be said (6+ / 0-)

    Just once, just ONCE I'd like to have a discussion about rape that didn't degenerate into either  "false allegations, false allegations, false allegations" or "I'm not blaming the victim, BUT..." followed by a laundry list of anything and everything she said/did/wore/whatever that was supposedly wrong.

    I get that we can't just tell women "there's nothing you can do to protect yourself," but policing women's behavior is never going to solve the real problem - it's just going to deflect the rapist on someone else, who will then be subjected to another round in the endless game of pin-the-blame-on-the-victim.  

    Rapists respond to incentives like everyone else.  When they see victims attacked as liars, or endless harping on how she "sent the wrong signals," the message to rapists is that there will be no consequences.

    They will change their behavior when they see that rape is not tolerated, that rapists get arrested, lose their friends, have their reputations ruined, and/or get humiliated.  

    We concentrate on changing one woman's individual behavior because it seems easier.  But keeping the focus on the rapists, and on everyone's responsibility to intervene when they can, is what's effective.

    I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

    by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 07:21:14 PM PDT

    •  sadly I'm not sure that's ever going to happen (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Nut Schell

      given the topic. Personally speaking I have no problem with no means no and I go out of my way to try and communicate but wrong signals do get sent and sometimes not in the way you might think.

      This is a complicated topic that both 'sides' I think tend to oversimplify when the solution is really what the other diary tried to put forth (open and honest communication)

      Der Weg ist das Ziel

      by duhban on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 10:20:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Open and honest communication (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jcjyl, oslyn7, angelajean

        is a fine thing in a healthy relationship, but it doesn't stop rape because rapists DO understand the word no - they just choose not to respect it.

        Telling women they can prevent rape by sending better "signals" is simply false, and enables rapists.

        I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

        by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 04:53:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and that's a valid point (0+ / 0-)

          but it's also true that what the other diary was talking is much more complicated then that.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:34:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But rape isn't complicated. (1+ / 0-)

            Forging a relationship with another person is complicated.

            The conversation that the sex ed class should be addressing is how to talk about sex... not how to talk about sex so that you don't get raped.

            The young women in that class are learning that if they do one day get raped, it will be their fault because they were poor communicators or because they communicated something they didn't intend. And the defense attorney for the rapist will ask the young woman if she talked about sex with the accused before the event took place and if she did, it will be a sign that she was interested in sex at some point in time, therefore how in the hell could she be raped in the first place when she was actually asking for it?

            That teacher is setting these girls up in ways he doesn't even understand and that is what makes me so very angry.

      •  Don't you find it sad that there are even two (2+ / 0-)

        sides?

        We're talking about rape. It's a crime. I'm tired of hearing that women will claim they were raped to just get back at some man. Or that they didn't understand what was really happening so it wasn't really rape. Until we as a society treat rape as a crime whenever it happens, then we will have two sides.

        I'm not saying that the crime will always be proven but we have got to stop blaming women for rape and start prosecuting rape cases like they are a crime. Right now, we're prosecuting the victim as if she/he were the criminal far to many times.

        Writing this comment makes me think of Trayvon Martin... there were definitely two sides to that case as well. It was heavily politicized when it shouldn't have been. That's what I want to take away from rape cases. That level of politicization.

        •  not really (0+ / 0-)

          I mean look rape is wrong period end of discussion however the circumstances of the other diary were about as muddy as they can get. And it's situations like that one that make it so hard to decide whether it was rape or not.

          And you don't have to like it but there have been cases of false rape accusations, some of which were honest and some not so much.

          I have to tell you I don't really like you bringing Trayvon Martin into this because it's not a valid analogy. There are things that men and women can do to make the situation better. And no that's no going to magically completely solve rape but it would dramatically cut down on the type of rape the diary describes.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:39:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Trayvon Martin could have done things differently. (1+ / 0-)

            He didn't have to wear a hoodie did he? He didn't have to be walking during the day time did he? He didn't have to smoke pot did he? But should he have had to do things differently?

            The cases are not as different as you would like them to be. Victims of all crime could probably have changed something in order to have prevented the crime but that doesn't mean they should have changed anything. That's the difference with rape - too many people are still willing to say that "if she would have done such and such, it would never have happened" yet we don't dare say those things about a young man like Trayvon who was so wrongly murdered. Because we know that isn't the inherent problem - it isn't that he wore a hoodie or that he was walking down the street or even that he used marijuana, though plenty of Zimmerman supporters would like us to think so.

            Rape is not muddy. That's where we disagree the most. Rapists are very good at choosing situations that will put a young woman's word in doubt. They are criminals who plan their crimes.

            I don't believe I've asked if you've watched The Invisible War? Truly, it changed my mind about how I saw rape and rapists. If you watch only one documentary this year, that should be it. I would love to hear your opinions after you've seen it.

            •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

              Whether he smoked pot or not had nothing to do with what happened. More over Zimmerman had no right to accost him and did so against the outright and explicit commands of the police.

              So I don't really see your point of comparison. I mean I suppose we could stretch that to compare to the scenario in the other diary where in there were also a series of bad decisions (by both people) leading up to the accusation of rape but at no time was there ever any thing close to official advice or command.

              Rape can be muddy and I think that is where we disagree. I mean no disservice or insult to victims of rape but for every clear cut case of sexual assault there's at least one if not more case of a scenario like the diary where in it may or may not be rape. And most criminals, most rapists are not especially clever. The vast majority of rapists are not only repeat offenders they're no very subtle either.

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 04:19:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It "may or may not be rape" (0+ / 0-)

                in example from the other diary?  You're talking about the one where the woman used the word NO and he chose to disregard it?  You consider that "muddy"?

                In that case, I'm not sure if there's any point in bothering with facts, but:

                The "misunderstood signals" myth that enables rapists has been thoroughly debunked.  Rapists understand a refusal long before they get to the explicit "no."  Not because they're "especially clever," but because that's the way people normally communicate.

                I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

                by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 06:45:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Here's some more (0+ / 0-)

                  on the debunking of the"miscommunication" myth:

                  The problem arises with the miscommunication model, which is just plausible enough to suck people in to talking as though that were the prevailing situation, when we ought to know otherwise.

                  I know that the miscommunication model describes, if anything, only a marginal subset of all rapes because I know that about 90% of all rapes are committed by a small population of repeat offenders who do it again and again, with premeditation, taking advantage of the prevalence of the victim precipitation and miscommunication model to provide cover for what is really the deliberate use of alcohol and isolation to rape their acquaintances. See here and here.

                  After describing these models, O’Byrne’s paper analyzes the language used by nine young men in focus groups to discuss rape. I am more interested in putting the models out there than in the findings of the study, so I will summarize it only briefly and trust that readers can do their own follow-up. The gist of it is that these young men evidenced an understanding of and even a preference for nuances and diplomatic communication to refuse sex, but then when discussing rape, reversed course and began to argue that anything the least bit ambiguous was unintelligible. They framed rape as largely a problem of miscommunication, and further framed the miscommunication as a problem with women not nowing how to say the right thing.

                  That doesn’t square with the research. It doesn’t square with their own discussion of communication when they’re not talking about rape. And basically it’s just self-justifying bullshit. Yet Lisak’s research and others shows that the vast majority of these guys — seven or eight out of nine — probably do not rape. What gives? Why create a social framework where rape is accidental if they don’t have to cover their own asses?

                  I shall die, but that is all that I shall do for Death; I am not on his payroll. - Edna St. Vincent Millay

                  by Tara the Antisocial Social Worker on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 08:06:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  I can't tell you how much I appreciated your (2+ / 0-)

      level headed comments in the other diary.

      I only wish this one would have went further so we could have had a more balanced conversation in the comments. It says a lot that Community Spotlight saw the other diary as one worth reading. I have a feeling at least two of our Rescue Rangers don't get what rape really is. That really bothers me the most because, overall, I think they do an excellent job and I'd like to think they are smarter than most on the site.

  •  would honest communication solve all rape? (0+ / 0-)

    Of course not but the other diary isn't trying to make that argument. What the diary argues is that you should talk and be open about matters.

    I'm not sure what's so shocking about that but then again like the diarist I've had experiences that tend to favor that view point.

    No always means no but that doesn't mean people shouldn't communicate especially on a first date. There's nothing wrong with a man or woman saying 'well okay I'll come have a beer with you but this or that isn't happening'.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 10:12:12 PM PDT

    •  Because a rapist will talk all day long and be (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jcjyl, oslyn7, Buckeye Nut Schell

      nicest guy in the world and still rape at the end of the evening.

      It is wrong to teach young woman that a conversation will prevent rape because it won't. Rape is a crime that is planned and put forth.

      Please watch The Invisible War if you haven't already. It is eye-opening and it seriously changed the way I view rape. It opened my husband's eyes as well. As a career military officer who has sat on boards to help 'fix' rape issues at the Air Force Academy, he was shocked at what he learned from the film and wished he would have known more while he was helping craft new rules and regs.

      •  You are right. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban
        Because a rapist will talk all day long and be the nicest guy in the world and still rape at the end of the evening.
        And you think that telling that guy that "No means no" will stop him?  The truth is that nothing will stop a determined rapist, nothing.  There is no reason, however, to allow yourself to going willingly into the night with such a creature.  The fact is, there are common sense ways that a woman can lessen the chances of being a rape victim and for their own personal safety, they should follow those rules as often as possible.  

        Whether someone follows those rules or not, does not change who is at fault or who should be blamed or whether it was classified as rape or not.  It simply reduces the risk of becoming a victim.

        "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

        by Buckeye Nut Schell on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 08:07:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Any suggestions on how to prevent men from (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Buckeye Nut Schell

          becoming rapists?

          •  I wish I knew. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            angelajean

            How do you stop a serial killer from becoming a serial killer?  How do you stop a thief from stealing?  Telling them not to do it does not seem to work.  I believe that bringing the issue to light, making sure men know it is not just the way it works, that it is a violent crime, "don't be that guy" campaigns, etc... All help but focusing on safety tips is the best way to prevent the situation from getting to the point where a rapist has the opportunity to rape.

            A woman has an incentive to protect herself.  A rapist wants to rape so his incentive must outweigh that desire.  I do not know what that incentive would be.  

            The truth is, the focus needs to be both.  I absolutely agree that the victim is not to blame but we all need to do everything possible to try to prevent there from being victims in the first place.  However it is done, I hope it works.

            "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

            by Buckeye Nut Schell on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:41:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  as was said below (0+ / 0-)

        at the end of the day nothing is going to stop a rapist from acting but there are common sense things that can be done. More over these common sense things can at least mitigate the possibility that a mistake will be made and things will go further then you expected or wanted.

        You don't have to convince me that rape is wrong or happens but that's what is being discussed. What is being discussed is whether there are some common sense things you can do to not only mitigate some of the risk but have a better overall date and even possible future relationship.

        Der Weg ist das Ziel

        by duhban on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:47:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  So where we disagree most is with this statement: (0+ / 0-)

          "Nothing is going to stop a rapist."

          In the military, there have been several attempts to decrease rape. The solutions have all revolved around teaching potential victims (because men are raped in equal numbers as women) how to better protect themselves. It's not working. It has never worked.

          The program that Tara the Antisocial Social Worker shared, Don't Be That Guy has dropped rape by 10% in the communities where it is being used. It doesn't teach women to be safer. It asks men to take responsibility for their actions.

          Do you see the difference?

          Isn't it time as a society that we ask men to take some of the responsibility for preventing rape?

          •  no we don't disagree (0+ / 0-)

            not on the type of rapist and rape I think you are talking about. The disaagreement comes on the 'softer', more 'gray' portion where it breaks down to he said, she said and was it bad sex or actual rape.

            Personally speaking I think men take on a lot of responsibility for preventing rape but shouldn't women do too?

            Der Weg ist das Ziel

            by duhban on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 04:08:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Somehow in all of that talk about date rape and (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angelajean, jcjyl, Buckeye Nut Schell

    rape, the lifelong destruction of the victims' lives was left out entirely. That was a disturbing diary. I was the head of a group called Women Against Rape (WAR) for many years and women who are raped are devastated by it, they do not bounce back and if they seem to bounce back, the trauma surfaces later.  

    It's not complicated: rapists rape. The highest criminal recidivism rate is among rapists. Statistically, convicted rapists almost always rape again. It stands to reason then, that un-convicted rapists almost always rape again.

    http://sapac.umich.edu/...

    There may be situations where two people had started to have sex and the girl said no and the guy didn't realize it and continued. That may happen. IMHO, that is infrequent and what is most often happening is that stone cold rapists are raping.

    As for men who disparage women to the degree mentioned in the comment above. These are men who are very threatened by women and, thus, very dangerous.

    Blaming a woman for having been raped is inexcusable, no matter the degree, tone, or intent of the blame.
    It is despicable.  
     

    "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

    by rubyr on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 10:18:32 PM PDT

    •  I wonder... (4+ / 0-)

      How men who blame the women would respond to this scenario?

      He picks up a woman at a bar. Both are sending signals that they want sex. When he get to her place, she wants to tie him up. He's ok with that. He think she is a little freaky. But her idea of fun is penetrating him with a dildo. Not his idea of fun. He tries to tell her no, but she does it anyway.

      I wonder if his response would be, "well, I asked for it. I said yes before I said no." I doubt it.

      People who believe the victim is partly at fault have no empathy. In short, they have one or more mental disorders for which there is no cure. They need to be removed from society.

      [I read this post earlier in the day, and it upset me so much I couldn't sleep until I posted this.]

      •  I agree with your scenerio... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rubyr, angelajean

        I used the same argument about the rapists in Stuebenville were the apologists were claiming the girls were asking for it.  I asked how would those same parents have felt if one of the football player was raping their sons?  Would the boys have been asking for it as well?

        "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

        by Buckeye Nut Schell on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 08:13:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Excellent comment, Bill in MD. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        angelajean

        "Southern nights have you ever felt a southern night?" Allen Toussaint ~~Remember the Gulf of Mexico~~

        by rubyr on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:00:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you so much for posting this. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    angelajean

    I was very disturbed by the other diary--and the person said they are a sexuality educator--good grief.  I could not bear to read all of the apologist comments.  So thank you for posting this.  
    Here is a link to the New Jersey Coalition Against Sexual Assault, which does excellent work. http://www.njcasa.org/

  •  I am the guilty party... (0+ / 0-)

    I am the one who wrote that offensive comment that you so detest and I agree that my choice of words were not the best... but they were honest.

    However, I would like to ask you to go and read the entire thread after that comment.  I do not think the portion you captured here reflects the essence of the entire argument.

    I clearly state that it is NEVER the fault of the victim.  EVER.  More importantly, I say over and over again that it the right of a woman to say stop whenever she chooses AND it is the responsibility of the man to STOP whenever that objection is made AND if he does not stop, he is guilty of rape.  I say that several times throughout the thread.  

    The reality though is that men do not stop.  Men cannot simply be told not to rape and then trusted not to rape.  It is too dangerous for a woman to allow herself to be in such a vulnerable position on nothing more than a promise from a "nice" guy.  

    A woman is the person in danger and therefore must be the one who takes charge of her own safety.  Giving women advice on how to do that is not blaming the victim, it is trying to keep women safe.  I like the "Don't be that guy" campaign.  I have never known one women to ever cry rape when it did not happen but I have known several women who were date raped and never said anything.  Those are the women who wished they wouldn't have trusted that bastard, wished they wouldn't have gone back to his place or wish they wouldn't have let him into their house.  They wish they wouldn't have done this or done that.  The fact is, none of that was her fault.  

    None of those things "Caused" her to be raped.  She was raped because the guy was a rapist.  BUT, she may have been able to avoid it with some safety tips.  Just like not picking up hitchhikers is prudent advice for a young lady, so is not going home with a guy you just met if you do not intend on have sex with them.  Do not voluntarily allow yourself to be in a situation that a man can over power you and take what he wants.  You will never be 100% safe from some crazy person who breaks into your house or attacks you while you are jogging but if you can avoid it, do not walk willingly into the wolves den and put yourself in a position where you have to rely on the willingness of a man to do the right thing.  Again, it is NOT THE WOMAN'S FAULT if she is raped but she is the only person who can protect herself from that assault if she is alone with a man.  The sooner she starts to prepare for an attack, the more likely those preparations will be effective.  They should start sometime around the moment they say hello.

    "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

    by Buckeye Nut Schell on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 07:56:26 AM PDT

    •  This is where I have the most problems: (0+ / 0-)
      The reality though is that men do not stop.  Men cannot simply be told not to rape and then trusted not to rape.  It is too dangerous for a woman to allow herself to be in such a vulnerable position on nothing more than a promise from a "nice" guy.
      Remove the word men and replace with rapist and you would be correct.

      Tell me how a woman is supposed to know which man is a rapist and which man isn't? You do know that rapists are prime examples of perfect citizens. They play a role very, very well. They target their victims and they know what they are doing before any conversation has started. They are very often friends or co-workers, people that you've learned to trust.

      It's time to stop putting the onus on women to solve this problem for each one of us individually and time as a society to start figuring out how to prevent rapists from succeeding at all.

      Conversations that continue to tell women to be careful take away from the conversation that we all seem to be afraid of. How does our society change our culture so that rape is far less common that it is today? If your answer is women need to protect themselves better, than we have no more to say to each other.

  •  I would like to know if there is a way... (0+ / 0-)

    to request that this diary be rescued?  This is an important conversation and it needs to be elevated but beyond reccomending it, I have now idea how to do that.

    This discussion is too important to have it slip away behind the spammed diaries and the nonsense.  The diary was well written and well researched and even though i don't agree with all of it (especially the part villifying me) the diarist is fighting the good fight.

    We all want rapes to stop.  We all want women to be safe.  I believe that the woman has a better chance of achieving that goal by following safe dating practices.  The author thinks the focus should be on the rapists.  I do not disagree but I do not believe it will be effective.  The diarist believes that I am saying that it is the woman's fault if she gets raped.  I disagree but that's okay, the discussion is happening and it is an emotional discussion where we all bring personal experiences to the table.

    How do I send an e-mail to the rescue ranges or send up a red flare or something to keep this conversation alive?

    "Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not YET sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favour..."

    by Buckeye Nut Schell on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 08:33:04 AM PDT

    •  The Rescue Rangers make those choices and they (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Nut Schell

      make them within the first couple of hours of publication. If the diary gets enough community attention, then it won't get rescued.

      I am familiar with the process because early in my writing at DailyKos, the only way I could get noticed was via the Community Spotlight :)  Now I have enough followers that I often follow the crest of the wave, get just enough recommends to get noticed but not enough to stay on the rec list. Such is life here. Especially when I chose to publish late in the afternoon. I should have waited until this morning when more people who recognize my name would have read the piece.

      Don't worry. I'll be writing about this topic again... especially about Date Rape. I think there is a huge misunderstanding (pun intended) about what date rape really is.

      And Buckeye, if you haven't seen The Invisible War, you really should watch it.

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