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Julia Ioffe: I've Got Whooping Cough. Thanks a Lot, Jenny McCarthy.
There’s a reason that we associate the whooping cough with the Dickensian: It is. The illness has, since the introduction of a pertussis vaccine in 1940, has been conquered in the developed world. For two or three generations, we’ve come to think of it as an ailment suffered in sub-Saharan Africa or in Brontë novels. And for two or three generations, it was.

Until, that is, the anti-vaccination movement really got going in the last few years. Led by discredited doctors and, incredibly, a former Playmate, the movement has frightened new parents with claptrap about autism, Alzheimer’s, aluminum, and formaldehyde. The movement that was once a fringe freak show has become a menace, with foot soldiers whose main weapon is their self-righteousness. For them, vaccinating their children is merely a consumer choice, like joining an organic food co-op or sending their kids to a Montessori school or drinking coconut water.

The problem is that it is not an individual choice; it is a choice that acutely affects the rest of us.



Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2008"Compromise" and the Lieberman fiasco:

No one is considering expelling Lieberman from the caucus. That's a straw man set up by Lieberman's people to try and muddy the waters. But if the issue is "compromise" as I've highlighted in the quote above, then that means Lieberman has to give something in return. A "compromise" isn't "give Lieberman everything he wants.

Now now, I know that in our Democratic Congress the last two years, "compromise" has been "give Bush everything he wants", so it's perfectly natural for the pseudo-Republican Joe Lieberman to think nothing has changed. And maybe nothing has changed. But plum committee chairmanships should go to those who worked to elect Democrats to the Senate and White House, not those who, like Lieberman, spoke at the RNC convention trashing our nominee and campaigned for Republicans in Senate races in Maine and Minnesota. And the "he votes with us on everything but the war" crap is just that -- crap, as a comprehensive study by the Center for American Progress notes.


Tweet of the Day:

One in 10 veterans lacks health insurance. http://t.co/...
@sarahkliff



On today's Kagro in the Morning show, Greg Dworkin updates the Virginia AG race, and reactions to the 60 Minutes Benghazi apology. More discussion of Simon & Schuster's plan to discreetly vacuum up RWNJ cash. Gun nuts are showing up with weapons to protest even the smallest gatherings of gun safety advocates, this time four members of the Texas chapter of Moms Demand Action who got together for lunch. Philly elects a Whig. "White Anti-Gay Activist Wins Election After Pretending To Be Black." More from the Center for Public Integrity's series, "Breathless and Burdened."



High Impact Posts. Top Comments.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Call it pre-pimping. (22+ / 0-)

    I’m having trouble with continuity and suffering from writer’s block on my “Autumn in Central Park” diary, so I’m showing excerpts until I get my act together.

    The View from the Cheap Seats

    I'm calling the above photo The View from the Cheap Seats because it comes with some fond memories. Back in the days of the “Schaefer Music Festival” when great Rock and Soul concerts used to take place in the Wollman Skating Rink, the rocks in this photo offered wonderful sounds and some pretty good views of the stage.

    But they weren’t really the cheap seats. While the only cost was showing up early enough to find a place on the rocks, the entrepreneurs selling beer out of ice filled trash bags and the marijuana merchants, actual tickets were only $1 in 1967 and $3 in 1976 with out of pocket expenses being much lower on the inside.

  •  The country is doing better than you think (11+ / 0-)

    My examination of the Eugene Robinson column of that title in this post for which I request your attention

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:31:44 PM PST

  •  Enjoying One of My Favorite Symphonies. (7+ / 0-)

    Elmer Bernstein's score of The Great Escape airing for another 90 minutes or so on TCM at least here in the ET zone. Christ he just went from military snare drum to harp.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:38:42 PM PST

  •  I'm done with 60 Minutes (21+ / 0-)

    From now on, I'll never believe anything they report until it's confirmed by a reputable news source (not CBS).

    Lara Logan’s Husband Was a Propagandist for the U.S. Military:

    Many people know that in 2008 Logan married Joseph W. Burkett, a defense contractor she met while stationed in Baghdad to cover the Iraq War for CBS News. Logan and Burkett were both married to other people when they became involved, and the story of their war-zone love affair—complete with reports of a brawl between Burkett and CNN’s Michael Ware, another rival for Logan’s affections—lit up the tabloids at the time.

    What most people don’t know, however, is the nature of Burkett’s work in Iraq. He was an employee of the Lincoln Group, a now-shuttered “strategic communications and public relations firm” hired by the Department of Defense in 2005 to plant positive stories written by American soldiers in Baghdad newspapers during the Iraq War.

    CBS News never saw fit to disclose that one of its star war correspondents became romantically involved with a man who was paid by the U.S. government to manipulate civilian public opinion about the disastrous war in Iraq. Nor has Burkett’s background ever been reported in much detail. Most recently The New York Times described him as a “work-at-home Congressional liaison,” without noting his employer.

    http://gawker.com/...

    "I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:39:02 PM PST

  •  I really have no idea who Jenny McCarthy is but (6+ / 0-)

    I've known people who have been against vaccination since the 60's.

    Oddly as a socialist I think this one is an individual choice. You know, your body your choice.

    Are Playboy bunnies that well known that they have huge influence? On issues of science?

    (And yes, I know you can be burned at the stake here for not vaccinating I just find the whole Jenny McCarthy thing baffling.)

    Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature. If I had Bill Gates money, I'd buy Detroit.

    by ZenTrainer on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:47:03 PM PST

    •  Zen, here's the issue, (25+ / 0-)

      from the linked article in the diary:

      The problem is that it is not an individual choice; it is a choice that acutely affects the rest of us. Vaccinations work by creating something called herd immunity: When most of a population is immunized against a disease, it protects even those in it who are not vaccinated, either because they are pregnant or babies or old or sick. For herd immunity to work, 95 percent of the population needs to be immunized. But the anti-vaccinators have done a good job undermining it. In 2010, for example, only 91 percent of California kindergarteners were up to date on their shots. Unsurprisingly, California had a massive pertussis outbreak.
      I'll add that some people who are actually vaccinated are, as it turns out, still not immunized, because the vaccine doesn't work for them for some reason. They too depend on others being immunized to protect them. So the choice not to be vaccinated isn't, say, akin to deciding not to wear a motorcycle helmet. It's more like deciding to ride with your eyes closed. It is definitely not only you being affected.


      Shop Kos Katalogue ❧ Help Okiciyap at Cheyenne River reservation.

      by belinda ridgewood on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:00:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, I just find that a slippery slope. A bit (5+ / 0-)

        like an argument that abortion shouldn't be an option because it does affect the life of others and perhaps puts them at risk. The father and the developing fetus.

        Maybe but I am still going to say it's the individuals choice. Their body, their choice.

        But my point was the whole Jenny McCarthy thing. She wasn't even born in the 60's when people started questioning the safety of vaccinations. How did she become the spokesperson? I just get a little chuckle out of that part and it was the headline of this diary.

        I know better than to try to discuss vaccination here. ;-)

        Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature. If I had Bill Gates money, I'd buy Detroit.

        by ZenTrainer on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:11:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There Is Almost No Choice Less Individual Than (16+ / 0-)

          this.

          You can't understand or control your bacteria or your immune system for Christ's sake. There is hardly anything about your impact on society you understand less or control less.

          We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

          by Gooserock on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:21:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  That individual's choice . . . (13+ / 0-)

          can be fatal to himself and others.  

          Moreover, nothing is gained by the person who refuses to be vaccinated.  Other than some abstract satisfaction at refusing to submit to authority, what does a person who declines to be vaccinated get from that decision?  

          An abortion may affect other people in some sense, but a woman who chooses to have one has strong, concrete countervailing personal interests that almost always outweigh the effect on others.  I just don't see comparable countervailing interests in people who refuse to be vaccinated.  (Unless, of course, they have some factual basis for believing they are among the tiny class of persons who are harmed by vaccines.)

          "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

          by FogCityJohn on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:28:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't exactly agree with McCarthy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wa ma, ZenTrainer

            but am grateful for her passion. As a parent of a child with Autism, I'm quite familiar for the endless search for answers. The unfortunate truth is that vaccines absolutely, without a doubt cause injuries, brain damage, seizures, etc. Despite any other argument about herd immunity or the greater good to society, it is just plain fact that a small percentage of people will be negatively affected by vaccines, and the only way to ensure that this doesn't happen to your child, is to not vaccinate them.

            It really pisses me off how passionate people can be for the greater good, while basically saying that those who are injured don't matter. You started to point out the very important, and underrepresented fact that the status quo is to vaccinate first and ask questions later. It is not easy for parents, in particular, to try to get "factual basis" for making a decision about vaccines, since it is not part of the discussion at a pediatricians office. How would i ever think to ask if my kid might be allergic to eggs at 2 weeks or 2 months of age? Or allergic to any other things, for god's sake? My kids are allergic to multiple things, but did anyone tell us that there could be risks associated with vaccines? Fuck no.

            I would feel very differently if people like you were just as motivated to push for people to make informed decisions rather then blindly follow that herd that they are supposedly protecting. That's individual choice - informed choice. It's just not easy to get unless you even know what to ask. And doctors will fight against your requests to get information to make that decision, since everyone knows vaccines are safe, right? Unfortunately, that's like trying to turn an oil tanker. I'm all for vaccines. Yep, I definitely am. But am against the vaccine machine, if you will. I tell my friends to do their research before vaccinating. Try to get allergy tests and learn about family history for mitochondrial disorders, etc, before proceeding. Especially with a newborn, whose vaccine schedule has grown in count and volume of shots to a crazy level in the last 30 years. The evidence of how vaccines of this quantity, and most often given in big batches of 3 or more at a time, may not even manifest for 20 or 50 years.

            But it's cool, because most of us won't have a reaction. Despite those who will, instead of getting whooping cough, get brain damage. It just so happens that a lot of vaccine injury symptoms mirror autism symptoms. Fact. Oh, did your kid have a vaccine reaction and is now affected for life? Would you like compensation from the community (read: government) for that sacrifice you/they made in the name for the greater good? Best of luck to you in vaccine court. The federally funded vaccine injury compensation fund isn't exactly an easy egg to crack. Do we nkow what causes Autism? Nope. But people sure seem to think that we know what doesn't, yet that's all just statistics as well. It may very well cause it in a small percentage of people, but the statement becomes "research shows that vaccines don't cause autism". No, it most likely doesn't. That's a small but still important distinction.

            I agree with most people here, and most reasonable people anywhere, in saying that vaccines are critically important. I just disagree that the process is fatally flawed, and parents and individuals should know the risks up front, know where to go to get answers, what tests might help them understand their risks, and then make an informed decision rather than the decision put down upon them. You don't see the countervailing interests because you must not be looking. Nothing is gained by the person who refuses to vaccinate? That's only true for "most". Statistics are just that - some people must be suffering and reacting negatively to vaccines or the statistics would just be one number: 100% safe. And it's just not that simple.

            Again, as a parent with a child with autism (and another typically developing child), we will forever wonder what decisions we made that may have contributed to her symptoms, and we'll likely never know. The only way to ensure 100% that you kid doesn't negatively react to a vaccine is to not give it to them. And you don't have any more of a right than anyone else to tell me that I can't make that decision. Most people, if fully informed, I think would make the decision to vaccinate. maybe spread out the vaccines to get one at a time, to better separate which vaccine might have caused that negative reaction, rash, seizure, etc.

            I know I kind of picked on you for this response, but the community on these pages has been one I've respected since the first Bush election, and I think this vaccine issue is quite interesting and saddening: it so closely mirrors the blind following of our fellow citizens to any one side of a political issue, and the irony kinda just makes me sick. Just give us the info, facts, and tools to research the issue to actually make an informed decision rather than telling us that everything will be okay if we just do what you say...

            All I want is the truth.

            by klaud on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:50:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I fully support your right to informed consent. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Andrew Lazarus, klaud

              Nevertheless, the research to date has shown no link between vaccines and autism.  This is a matter that has been the subject of long-running litigation before special masters at the U.S. Court of Federal Claims.  After reviewing all of the available research and expert testimony, the court concluded there was no such link.

              So in the face of that evidence, what should we do?  Should we decline to vaccinate children and leave them exposed to deadly but preventable diseases because a very small percentage of them might have a bad reaction to the vaccine?  And let's assume parents don't vaccinate their child because of fear of reaction to the vaccine, and then the child goes on to develop a fatal case of measles, pertussis, or polio.  What, exactly, has been gained?

              Not vaccinating your child is only reasonably safe if pretty much everyone else gets their children vaccinated.  Because of herd immunity, your child probably won't be exposed to a dangerous illness, since all the other kids are immunized.  But if large numbers of people choose not to immunize their children, then there will be no herd immunity, and the chances of your child (or someone else's) getting a dangerous disease greatly increase.  So basically vaccine refusal is only a viable option if the refusers are very few in number.  

              In the end, this comes down to a question of assessing risk.  I think you should have all the information possible before deciding whether to vaccinate your child and what vaccines to administer.  But the risk assessment also has to include the risk of not vaccinating.  And that choice has to be viewed in the context of what it means not only for your child but for every other person with whom he or she may come into contact.

              My father is a pediatrician now in his 80s.  In the early decades of his practice, parents vaccinated their children without hesitation.  Back then, however, parents had actual experience of seeing kids living in iron lungs, and they could remember relatives who had died of the diseases against which vaccines had become available.  Ironically, it is the success of vaccines that has made the anti-vaccine movement viable.  We no longer have a visceral understanding of the dangers posed by these diseases.  Not vaccinating seems like a safe option.  But that's an illusion, as some parents have discovered to their great regret.

              "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

              by FogCityJohn on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 10:36:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I mostly agree (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                FogCityJohn

                Most of the research that has been done on the link between vaccines and autism has concluded that there is no clear link. The problem lies in the fact that you cannot have a control subject and test subject, when no two people's genetic makeup and entire medical history can be compared apples to apples. Take two kids, give one vaccines, the other gets none. The kid who had vaccines is later diagnosed with autism. Was it the vaccines? many other kids who've been vaccinated have no reaction, and yet others who weren't vaccinated have Autism. Clearly we cannot control all other variables, and statistically, studies show no clear link. But there are many, many people (in numbers, not in percentages) that have documented and even been compensated for vaccine injuries, resulting in Autism diagnoses or displaying many of the same symptoms that fall under the spectrum of Autism disorders. And for those with Autism that weren't vaccinated, what caused it? Again, that's a huge amount of historical genetiv and environmental information to process, and no simple study can come close to making conclusions considering all the variables.

                When you say "the research to date has shown no link", that is clearly the summary of the assessments done, but statistically, it is not a seemingly significant risk. It is absolutely greater than zero, however. The number of suspicious links from vaccines and other foreign materials or environmental factors (pollution, pesticides, etc) which can have an affect on our genetic makeup and brain development is only seeming to grow, and the frequency of Autism diagnoses has been growing at alarming rates in the last 10-20 years. That's scary, but nobody truly knows why. I have a hard time believing that the things we put into our bodies, in the name of nutrition, or medicine, therapy, etc and the things entering our bodies largely out of our immediate control (chemicals, fumes, air pollution, varying sources of electromagnetic radiation) are not slowly affecting the way our bodies and brains develop or worse, develop anomalies or cancers or dysfunction. It will surely be years if not generations before the slow-to-respond medical community agrees on what causes these sorts of things. It's not like malaria or the flu - you got bit by a mosquito, or test positive for this virus? Great, let me mark that down. You had how many vaccines, and when? Let me try to calculate that equation of the auto-immune and physiological response over the course of your development...not going to happen.

                The fact remains that Autism is a huge spectrum. No two people with the diagnosis have the same afflictions, albeit often similar. This tells us that we cannot truly do any sort of controlled experiment or study to find out if any one vaccine or combination of them causes autism (again, a huge spectrum). Just as the symptoms and reactions vary, so do the histories and genetic makeup of each individual being documented under any of these studies or surveys.

                The rest of your comment I agree with. I just wish it weren't such a grey area. It's unfortunately presented to parents/people as "black and white" at the point of service for vaccines, either at childhood or for the flu, etc. I also don't understand the slow response to the changes in our health situation - yes vaccines used to save many lives and prevent those diseases, but we really don't yet know if things like vaccines are affecting our bodies and development in other ways, and it will likely take a very long time before we truly understand it.

                All I want is the truth.

                by klaud on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 02:38:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I take risks getting vaccinated. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  klaud

                  I have HIV.  My immune system is compromised.  Every time I get vaccinated for the flu or something else, I'm taking something of a risk.  In the case of the flu, I get a killed vaccine, unlike HIV-negative people.  That should eliminate that particular risk.

                  For me, however, the alternative to the vaccine is almost surely worse.  If I get one of these nasty diseases, my immune system is less capable of fighting it off.  A vaccine poses far less risk to my health than getting the actual disease.

                  BTW, if you're interested in the issue of vaccines and autism, Andrew Solomon discusses that issue in his recent book Far From the Tree in the chapter on parents of children with autism.  If you haven't already read the book, I highly recommend it.

                  "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                  by FogCityJohn on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:38:15 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  We might want to look at other countries as well. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  klaud

                  The US gives more vaccines than most any other industrialized nation I believe.

                  Wonder why that is?

                  I doubt it's because they haven't caught up with us yet given the US poor standing on the health scale (high infant mortality, low life expectancy, etc).

                  Tracy B Ann - technically that is my signature. If I had Bill Gates money, I'd buy Detroit.

                  by ZenTrainer on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:04:00 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Money (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ZenTrainer

                    Pharmaceutical companies are well entrenched in the medical community's recommendations, including vaccination schedule development. Again, not against vaccines by any means, just making it reasonable, logical and based on risk assessment a the individual level. A bit of a pipe dream in terms of cost, etc, but that's how it goes.

                    All I want is the truth.

                    by klaud on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 06:51:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  One of your arguments doesn't fly (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              O112358
              Do we nkow what causes Autism? Nope. But people sure seem to think that we know what doesn't, yet that's all just statistics as well.
              It's not necessary to know what causes a particular phenomenon in order to rule out a particular proposed cause for it:

              Doctor: Good news. The radiologist read your scan and you don't have a brain tumor.

              Patient: Then what's causing my headaches?

              Doctor: We still don't know.

              Patient: If you don't know what's causing them, how can you say it isn't a brain tumor?

              You're arguing the same way the patient in the above exchange is.

              If a conjecture makes testable predictions, it's a hypothesis and if those predictions don't come true, then it's a disproven hypothesis. For example, the conjecture "people are gay because they choose to be" makes at least three testable predictions:

              1) Most gay people will remember when they chose to be gay.

              2) Most straight people will remember when they chose to be straight.

              3) A substantial number of teenage boys will date other boys just to piss off their parents.

              Since we don't observe any of those three phenomena, we can pretty much say that the conjecture is false.

              Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

              by ebohlman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:11:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not apples to apples (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ZenTrainer

                You can't rule out vaccines as a cause for autism for some people, but you can rule it out as the singular cause for all people that have an autism diagnosis, just based on statistics. It's not as simple as your example.

                Hell, even if my kid wasn't vaccinated, it could have been caused by my wife's vaccinations during pregnancy, or a million other things. You can only rule out the things that you know didn't cause it, I agree with that - My daughter has never been to the moon, so space travel didn't cause her to get Autism. The patient in your example doesn't have a brain tumor, so it can't have caused headaches. For the patient to question that statement is irrelevant to the facts at hand. My kid was vaccinated. She has Autism. Did the vaccinations cause her change in development from "normal" to "delayed and abnormal"? You cannot tell me with certainty that vaccinations didn't contribute. You can only say, based on statistics, that it's not likely. And every study that's ever been done on the subject did not have access to my daughter's genetic profile, family history, medical history, and other variables. It just is not as simple as people make it out to be, and that to me is just as big of a problem as people not vaccinating their kids without doing their own research and risk assessment.

                Conclusively saying that vaccines don't cause autism is a fallacy. Saying that it's a risk, albeit small one, is absolutely a true statement, baked up by evidence and legal cases that have been decided and injury compensation that has been provided to the victims.

                All I want is the truth.

                by klaud on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:01:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your making elaborate excuses (0+ / 0-)

                  and veiled attempts to justify why linking autism with vaccines is not in the realm of batshit insanity.

                  So lets get this out of the way.

                  If you do not get your child vaccinated because you think their may be a link to vaccinations and autism....you are committing child abuse.

                  The kind of child abuse that not only is isolated to your individual kids but children at large.

                  There is NO link to vaccines and autism.

                  There is a reason why the "inventor" of that idea lost his medical license.

                  The autism-vaccine theory has been rather strongly debunked. There is easy access to medical records going back decades considering schools have been recording this stuff.

                  If there was a link, it would have been found by now.

                  If you are still holding onto that theory, you are member of a cult led by a ex playboy model, and a guy who lost his medical license for "making shit up"

                  We get it, your kid has autism, that is unfortunate. But that event is no excuse for you to loose your shit and join this brainwashed cult.

                  Just like those on the right are not legitimately questioning evolution or climate change, supporting this bullshit is intellectual murder.

                  •  Ummmmmmm (0+ / 0-)

                    First of all, if you read a bit more carefully, I never said I think that it causes autism, nor am I against vaccines on the whole.

                    Secondly, you are an idiot if you think you can conclusively say that there is NO link. It's just as blind to think that vaccines are completely safe (they're not) as to say, or to tell someone, that they are completely safe and hold no risk of injury or brain damage. It is a very small risk, and most people would be willing to take that risk if they have all the info to make an INFORMED decision.

                    And fuck you for calling me a child abuser. Read everything I wrote, take a chill pill, and realize that you are ridiculous. If you still don't agree with me, than you are just as crazy as those you are denouncing. i also never said i supported the claims of Wakefield, but am simply stating facts that people have negative reactions to vaccines. Facts.

                    All I want is the truth.

                    by klaud on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:52:15 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  "Im not calling (0+ / 0-)

                      Obama a dirty Muslim socialist  Im just reporting that someone once talked about it."

                      Nothing is completely safe.

                      But if you lock your kid in your house and never let them out  because omgz the outside is dangerous and the 1 in a million chance that a nuclear war starts today, you need to keep them in your fallout bunker. That's child abuse.

                      If you refuse to give your vaccines because OMGZ you think vaccines cause autism. That's child abuse.

                      Both cases are child abuse because of stupidity. Child abuse none the less.

                      "Secondly, you are an idiot if you think you can conclusively say that there is NO link."

                      Yes we can. Its on the same level, as climate change, evolution and the world being round.

                      There is NO basis in any scientific thought or literature to support that hypothesis. ITs pure debunked bullshit and has been for some time.  

                      That idea is sooooo far up shit creak, and so dangerous that people get their medical license pulled for pushing that crap.

        •  As parents we make choices for our children (11+ / 0-)

          all the time. The idea of a toddler claiming "my body my choice" is ludicrous. This isn't comparable to you getting a flu shot.

          And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

          by high uintas on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:29:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  She was a Playboy bunny in the 90's, and went on (9+ / 0-)

          to host the Dating Game with Chris Hardwick (of current Talking Dead fame; his adam's apple is hypnotizing), was a Candie's spokesperson, and then spouse to Jim Carrey.

          At some point she had a baby, and that baby was diagnosed with autism, or Aspberger's.  I can't remember which, though apparently I have a shockingly thorough knowledge of Jennie McCarthy.  She blathered on about how she "saw the light go out of his eyes" hours after he received some vaccine.  And then she was an anti-vaxxer.

          Funny thing- turns out her kid didn't have autism, or even Aspberger's.  He just had some neurological delay, and is pretty much talking and socializing now.

          So- there you have it.  Some minor starlet's kid has a rare neurological disorder, gets it misdiagnosed, then gets taken advantage of (willfully or otherwise) by discredited hacks and now we've got Dickensian illnesses cropping up in the what is supposed to be a first world country.

          Mehrika!

          I'm living in an age that calls darkness light.

          by electricgrendel on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:37:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  She also had at least one failed sitcom, and (0+ / 0-)

            was a fixture on MTV's "spring break" and various other seasonal programs for several years.

            "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

            by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:25:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  worse (4+ / 0-)

            she thought her child was an "Indigo Child". That was a fad back in the late 90s/early aughts, so much so they got to be the villan of the week on one of the CSIs.

            Then she discovered autism, did the post hoc ergo propter hoc thing, and decided vaccines were the cause.

            and now we have outbreaks of previously suppressed childhood diseases. I'm just waiting for the inevitable polio outbreak here in the United States.

            Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility- LutherCEO

            by terrypinder on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:51:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Think of anti-vaxers as polluters (5+ / 0-)

          The linked article doesn't mention that not only are vaccines inappropriate for some people (babies, etc.), many of them don't work 100 percent of the time. So even though you got vaccinated, you may still be at risk.

          Meanwhile, the anti-vax free rider gets (1) to rely on everyone else's civic responsibility to keep from getting sick and (2) avoid the risks of vaccination, which do not include autism, but which do include anything from discomfort to occasional severe or even fatal reactions.

          Just as polluters let the rest of us clean up their mess, anti-vaxers rely on us to assume these risks. Otherwise, we can go back to epidemics of polio, measles, pertussis, the whole shebang. Innocent people will die, but a few of these may be enough to bring them to their senses, or at least to modify laws to keep their kids out of our schools and playgrounds.

          •  Or, instead of ranting about Anti-Vaxxers, and (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ZenTrainer

            basking in a useless sense of superiority, we can work on getting vaccines to the majority of unvaccinated children whose parents are not opposed to vaccinating.

            The big issue is access, not anti-science dipshits we can all feel good about hating.

            "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

            by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:27:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I Lost My Keys On Fifth, But Third Has More Light (4+ / 0-)

              The pattern of recent outbreaks indicates that the anti-science dipshits are the source of the current problem.

              On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

              by stevemb on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:46:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The case in question is the result of an adult (0+ / 0-)

                refusing to comply with CDC guidelines.

                However, parental vaccine refusal is a risk factor, not the risk factor.

                There is no doubt that communities with high rates of unvaccinated children due to parent refusal have higher rates of infection as shown here http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/...

                That does not mean that impoverished communities where children go unvaccinated at higher rates do not have higher rates of infection than the mean!

                To assert that proving one risk factor somehow disproves others is just bizarre.

                Even back in the 1990's, before the modern surge of anti-vax bullshit, the link between pertussis and poverty was clear

                http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...

                Yes, the anti-vaxxers have created a small risk for people living in some high income enclaves who were previously relatively safer.

                There is no evidence that the long-term problem of outbreaks among poor and working populations who are not sufficiently vaccinated for other reasons has disappeared.

                "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

                by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:21:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You Said It Yourself (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Calamity Jean

                  The chronic problems associated with poverty have remained steady ("not disappeared").

                  The new problem (among "people who were relatively safer") added to the existing one is a result of the dipshittery criticized in the diary.

                  On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

                  by stevemb on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:04:23 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  One problem is easy to fix, but does (0+ / 0-)

                    require actual effort.

                     Granted, it doesn't impact the social classes of the original Author or the Re-Poster, which is why it hasn't been adequately addressed for 70 years.

                    "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                    by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:45:38 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Free and low-cost vaccination available (0+ / 0-)

              Here's the list in my locality. Sure, we have to get the word out, but at least by Kindergarten enrollment parents should be familiar with these resources.

              The big problem here is lack of compliance, which is now coming not from the poor, but from New Age bullcrap ideas about "natural". Poison ivy is natural but you don't see these greedy free riders eating it, do you?

            •  Actually, access isn't the problem for (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              O112358

              unvaccinated kids; as a group, they're richer and whiter than the general population. Lack of access usually results in undervaccinated kids ( ones who get their first shots but not their boosters, etc.); that group is known to be poorer and browner than the general population.

              It's the former group that's been associated with recent outbreaks.

              Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

              by ebohlman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:22:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  That Just Doesn't Make Sense (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Miggles, belinda ridgewood

          A self-proclaimed socialist, of all people, ought to understand the concept of "public goods". Your argument is like saying that paying taxes is an individual choice -- no, actually, it's a less valid argument (if you don't pay your fair share for national defense, infrastructure, etc, somebody else can pay extra; if you don't contribute your fair share toward herd immunity, nobody else can repair the public-health weak spot).

          On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

          by stevemb on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:43:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  And That's Really the Point (13+ / 0-)

        Let's just pull numbers out of the air to illustrate the point.

        If nobody gets vaccinated then the odds are 1 in 10,000 that you will die of smallpox.

        If everybody gets vaccinated then nobody will die of smallpox but the odds are 1 in 10,000,000 that you will die of a bad reaction to the vaccine.

        Here's the thing:

        If everybody but you gets vaccinated then you still have no risk of dying from smallpox, because of the herd immunization effect, but you also eliminate the 1 in 10,000,000 risk that you might die from the vaccine. So,  rejecting the vaccine really is a good strategy as long as you're the only one who does it, but it's completely antisocial and irresponsible because you're insisting that everybody else run the risk of taking the vaccine to give you the benefit for free.

        •  I understand you pulled the numbers out of (6+ / 0-)

          thin air to make a point, but I would like to point out that smallpox had a 30% mortality rate throughout human history until it was finally eradicated - through worldwide vaccination - in the 1970's. And almost everyone caught it at some point in their life (even President Lincoln, on his way back from Gettysburg, came down with a mild infection).  

          So instead of a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying of smallpox (if no one was vaccinated), it would in reality be about a 1 in 3 chance of dying of smallpox.

          When smallpox vaccinations were invented early in the 18th century, the chances of dying of vaccination were pretty high but not as high as without the vaccine. So a lot of people who had access to them would opt for vaccination. They did not use a vaccine per se, but rather the pus from a pustule on a sick person that would be scratched into your arm, usually producing an extremely mild case of smallpox with a high survival rate and that would leave you immune the rest of your life. As medical science progressed, so did the reliability and safety of the vaccination process, and eventually a vaccine was developed that eliminated the need for pus from a sick person.

          I have no idea what the actual chance would be of dying of the vaccine today, but I'm pretty confident that it would be miniscule.

          •  I believe they used cowpox, a similar but (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jay C, Calamity Jean

            different condition after it was noticed that milkmaids tended not to get smallpox.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            •  No, the one before it used actual live (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ebohlman

              smallpox and even the cowpox one had a large risk of getting tetanus because they just used a knife which was often rusty to make the cut to rub the pus in.

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:21:12 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The earlier procedure using smallpox pus (0+ / 0-)

                was called "variolation"; the word "vaccination", which derives from the Latin for "cow", came into being once cowpox started being used.

                BTW, the tetanus risk wasn't because the knife was rusty, it's because it had likely been exposed to manure, which tetanus bacteria naturally live in.

                Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

                by ebohlman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:28:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  30% for populations that had long histories (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jay C, Calamity Jean, spacecadet1

            of exposure.

            For populations where it was a novel pathogen, fatality rates often exceeded 75%.

            Inoculation was invented back in the 10th century (at least) and provided effective immunity for about 95% of those who survived being treated...although it killed about 2-5%.  It says something that knowing the 1 in 20 risk of death and the 1 in 20 risk of not gaining immunity, everyone from Kings to Clerics who had the chance in the Muslim world and Chinese Empire took it.  It came to the Western World in the 18th Century...I believe the British brought it back from India but don't quote me on that one.

            This spread to North America about the same time that some colonists were learning about the process from African slaves who had been inoculated prior to capture, so it was kind of two sources at once.

            This was done in America on a large scale at Valley Forge and it saved Washingtons army (men were deserting for fear of illness prior to the effective inoculations). By 1800, the first society to oppose the practice had formed.

            Because...well.  Yeah.

            Later came vaccination with cowpox instead, just as effective and far less dangerous - also, not requiring a person sick with active smallpox as a source.  This was the first vaccination rather than inoculation (vaccination uses a weaker strain or dead agent) and was right around the turn of the 19th century.

            "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

            by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:42:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are correct. I did some more reading about (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW

              this after my initial comment and re-discovered the even worse effects for populations without prior exposure.

              There were also some populations that had less than 30% mortality as they had a high number of immune individuals who had survived smallpox in childhood.

              I believe the 30% figure is a rough estimate of the overall mortality on humanity since smallpox first infected humans thousands of years ago.

              And the book I was looking at ("Scourge", by Jonathan B. Tucker - highly recommended for those interested in this disease) mentions that inoculation for smallpox actually has been around for a couple of thousand years, starting first in Asia, then slowly making its way west to Europe, where it was introduced about 300 years ago. An English aristocrat brought it back from the Ottoman Empire after seeing its benefits when living there with her diplomat husband.

              Thanks for the corrections!

            •  Conflict over smallpox inoculation in Puritan MA (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW

              Cotton Mather was in favor, but others objected to inoculation as contrary to God's will. The stupid will always be with us.

    •  The anti-vaccination crowd (16+ / 0-)

      are like the Teabaggers of the medical world.

      "I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

      by Jeff Y on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:07:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  She has a body count. (8+ / 0-)

      http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/...

      "Are Playboy bunnies that well known that they have huge influence? On issues of science?"

      For those who are informed no.... but the problem is that in this particular decision process....the extremely stupid get to make their own decisions AND they effect the rest of the population by spreading their illnesses.

      You know the whole saying "spreading like a plague"

      well..... we are talking about  directly spreading THE plague

      •  What are the ethics if YOUR child is harmed? (0+ / 0-)

        My child was born fine (High apgar). Immediately after Stanford gave him the HEP B vaccine (then containing mercury) he had an apnea episode and ended up in the ICU very sick. Now, I got him vaccinated because of a sense of responsibility, the one everyone talks about. He did in fact get the next 8 sets of vaccines. He did in fact react to them over and over (and I was too dumb and trusting to stop until 18 months). He did in fact develop autism.  . . there is in fact information on most vaccine package inserts saying:
        --this vaccine has not been tested for its effect when given with other vaccines
        --the vaccine can cause side effects, including encephalitis (which sounds an awful lot like autism).
        If you don't believe me, ask your doctor for the fine print, several page package insert the next time you or your child vaccinate your child. Or you can find them on the manufacturer's websites.
        So, I found out that my child is absolutely susceptible to harm from vaccinations. Does this mean that I should be silent about such harm, to protect herd immunity and the "greater good". Or, is it my ethical responsibilty to push medicine to figure out why it hurt my child, how we can identify such children, and how we can ameliorate such damage in future children. Instead, what I'm faced with from so many of my fellow progressives, is a deathly silence when I bring this up. I do not get compassion, I do not get thanked for sacrificing my son's and family's future to herd immunity, and I do not get thanked for showing them the pubmed and NIH research backing up what I am telling you. INstead, I get put into a pack with teabaggers and climate change deniers--when, in fact, pharma is taking the role of vaccine-damage deniers, and I and fellow parents are taking the role of witnessing the polar bears drowning and no one wants to hear it. I am NOT antivaccine. I am pro-safe vaccine. THere is a huge difference, and I just can't understand why saying "Lets figure out what happened here" is supposedly equivalent to saying "No one vaccinate their kids". Pharma has deep motivation for denying that our infants have been harmed. The CDC and NIH (google Bernadine Healy) think that people are too dumb to be told that vaccines harm a few of us. So they out and out lie. I know what I saw with my own eyes. So do 7 of 10 parents of autistic kids you ask--at least the ones getting better. After this happened I found out from my Mom that other family members from the first thimerasol vaccine had dangerous reactions. It turns out many people are allergic to thimerasol and its a lot to give an infant. Please folks, just acknowledge this. ANd tell me, ethically, if you did the research in reputable sites (including foreign which are not as compromised as ours) if you saw it with your own eyes, is the ethical thing to pretend you think vaccines are safe for all or is the ethical thing to speak up? I have decided it is ethical to speak up. I know people will attack me. I also know that I am right. Yes, Virginia, vaccines really do cause brain injury to a subset of children. Does it mean we should get rid of vaccination? Of course not. Does it mean we should discuss it honestly and try to fix it? Yes. Please, please hear us. We are smart, we are educated, we used to think as you do. And then we saw our bright, outgoing, funny baby slip into Baby Alzehimers --and on the journey to bring him back, we learned things about pharma and the CDC that truly broke our heart. And when we listened to doctors who had been on this same journey when it happened to THEIR child, and followed their advice to detox and slow future vaccinations, our children started to heal. I'm sorry but Jenny McCarthy is a hero. She is trying to save others from what happened to her son. She saw him have a seizure after a vaccination. THe easy thing would have been to cure him on her own and not endure this ridicule. She took the high road and the courageous road. Her motivation is to keep this from happening again, just as Mothers Against Drunk Driving work to keep their tragedy from happening again. THey aren't against driving and they aren't against drinking. They just want everyone to be safe. Jenny's campaign was about GREENING our vaccines. (Google CDC vaccine ingredients for a great shock). The fact that she has been straw-manned about this and her message distorted proves that the motivation of those against her is not pure. The least you can do is have compassion for her journey and respect for her wish to share the solution that worked for her, and her efforts to take the toxins out of vaccines (some utterly unnecessary and meant to save dimes on a dose) and what she learned about why it happened. Think about it and think about what you would do if this had happened in your family. And you saw your child slip away. And were told it was hopeless and no one knows why. Then you started reading the science on Generation Rescue and autism.com. You found doctors (M.D.'s whose eyes had also been open by this same tragedy). . Then, using these techniques, you brought him back. Would you feel you should keep it to yourself, or speak out in hopes of helping others, fixing the vaccines, and figuring out which infants needed another approach? This happened to Jenny, but it also happened to me. And to many others out there, speaking out to prevent this difficult journey from happening to your child, speaking out so that this gets acknowledged and the right reseach is done. Do not believe pharma's blanket media assertions and remember that pharma makes up 70% of the ad revenue during non-election years. No one wants to cross them (google Robert F. Kennedy's AutismOne speech.) Thank you for reading. And remember that thimerasol is still in flu shots. And remember that though it is out of shots now, so many autism parents are left with the collateral damage. Please show us  compassion and respect, and at least hear us out. Please listen to our stories and remember we DID choose to get our child vaccinated. And our journey to the truth was extremely painful. But it was our child's only hope. Thank you.

    •  I despise anti-vaxxers who spew ignorant (0+ / 0-)

      "Reasons" not to vaccinate to naive or uninformed citizens.

      So I really dislike people like McCarthy, and my comment history is full of scathing comments about her, Mayim Bialik, Suzanne Sommers and other celebrities that offer dangerous health opinions.

      BUT Julia Ioffe, Senior Editor of a liberal news magazine (and we're supposed to be the informed people) doesn't get a pass, much less any sympathy from me.

      In fact, her anger and blame are infuriating.

      We've known there is a pertussis outbreak for several years. I was told I HAD to have a TDAP booster two years ago. My husband was living in another state at the time, and his physician told him the same thing a couple months earlier.

      Yes, we live on the west coast, which seemed particularly affected.

      But Ioffe is a journalist. I bet she travels or interviews sources from the west coast, at the very least.

      This has been in the media for a long time-- dailykos has had numerous diaries about it.

      Dang it. You don't get to be a presumably informed journalist, not make good decisions for whatever reasons and then blame the Playboy bunny.

      People get sick. I get it, so dont accuse me of blaming the victim. She said her childhood vax wasn't good enough. But we were told that. She got sick and wants to make a sociopolitical statement here.

      It's not going to work.  At best, it sounds whiny and petty. More, it feeds the rightwing meme that lefties don't want to be the party of personal responsibility.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:40:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  When I say (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ZenTrainer

        "Don't accuse me of..." I didn't mean you, Tracy. I just anticipated comments that might arrive.

        ;)

        © grover


        So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

        by grover on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:43:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  one of the things I read (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JesseCW, Andrew Lazarus

        about the TDaP, was that the long term effectiveness wasn't nearly that of the TDP, the 'a' signifying 'acellular', as in some part of the cell had been removed from the vaccine. But the TDaP was less irritating to those receiving it, which was the primary reason for shifting to it.

        I did immunizations for several years, and based on the journalist's age, it is entirely possible that she was given the TDaP in the first place, the effectiveness of which diminished over time, whereas older people, having had the original TDP vaccine, retain their immunity to a higher degree over time.

        Jenny McCarthy, and her minions and mouthpieces are still an offense to humanity.

        Anyone who scoffs at happiness needs to take their soul back to the factory and demand a better one. -driftglass

        by postmodernista on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:00:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, and now the newest thing is that if you take (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          postmodernista

          any kind of OTC pain reliever within a few weeks of getting any vaccination then it might reduce it's effectiveness.  Though to be fair, there haven't been any human studies on the matter just an animal study that found that the COX-1 pathways are important in producing an immune response.  Therefore logic suggests that inhibiting COX-1 should reduce the immune response though who knows if it actually has an effect on vaccine effectiveness.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:24:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  So, are you saying... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          spacecadet1, postmodernista

          at age 63 I should get a booster shot for whooping cough? Anything else?

          I've been reading for a few years now about the resurgence of some things I thought had been wiped out - whooping cough, polio, TB etc. All those things I got vaccinated for back in the fifties and sixties.

          For the record, I fell victim to whooping cough back in 2008 or '09. Funny, although I clearly recall the weeks of those choking attacks, I don't remember the exact year.

          Like the article says, I had no idea what it was. Having been vaccinated for pertussis, I never considered that. All I knew was it felt like I was literally going to blow out a lung or two. My ribs and stomach were killing me for two weeks after it was all over. I had no idea what it was until almost a year later when I read a diary here on Kos

          NEVER want to go through that again!

          Meddle not in the affairs of dragons... for thou art crunchy and good with ketchup.

          by Pariah Dog on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 08:53:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ask your primary care provider, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            postmodernista

            or if you don't have a PCP, your local department of health. Even your pharmacist can give you more individual advice than a stranger on the Internet.

            postmodernista is a fine person as far as I can tell from all the interactions we've had. But individual medical advice really needs to come from someone that knows something about your medical history.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 10:52:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  absolutely agree (0+ / 0-)

              I've been out of that field for many years; what I was recalling was anecdotal discussion that occurred at the time.

              Anyone who scoffs at happiness needs to take their soul back to the factory and demand a better one. -driftglass

              by postmodernista on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 02:19:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  No argument here: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          postmodernista
          Jenny McCarthy, and her minions and mouthpieces are still an offense to humanity.
          In case I didn't make that point strenuously enough.

          I just wonder why Julia wouldn't mention she did get a recent vaccine but it failed to work and she got sick because herd immunity doesn't exist. Isn't that another strike against the anti-vaxxers?

          /shrugs.

          It's a weakness in her article if that's the case.

          I dunno...

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 10:57:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  "Free vaccination for your precious baby (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, Larsstephens

    with that coconut water, ma'am?
    No, but you can give me a give a box of those Praise Jesus .45 shells"

    We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

    by franklyn on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:54:38 PM PST

    •  Nice try...but the anti-vaccine crowd (6+ / 0-)

      is overwhelmingly liberal. Stupid dirty hippies. High correlation to thinking that the white lines in the sky are monsanto chemicals, not frozen water vapor from the combustion of jet fuel at altitude.

       Now the anti-FLOURIDE crowd seems to be spread about evenly between stupid dirty hippies who thinks its some sort of military industrial conspiracy, to stupid John Birch types who think its a communist mind-control conspiracy.

      One thing is for sure, we're running out of tin-foil hats around here in NorCal.

      Left Coast Libertarian

      by pacspeed on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:04:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, all but one, obviously. nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Larsstephens

        We can discuss this and wonder what to do about that, but in the end, the ONLY thing that matters is voter turnout. Ya CAIN'T go to the dance if you AIN'T bought your ticket! Go team go.

        by franklyn on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:10:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Anti-vax is apolitical idiocy (4+ / 0-)

        Certainly many from the left have fallen for it. But, living in South Carolina during the 2009 swine flu pandemic, I had the misfortune of meeting plenty of right-wing vaccine deniers.

        •  Yes. David Gorski of (0+ / 0-)

          Science-Based Medicine has repeatedly made that point both there and on his not-so-super-secret other blog (NSSSOB). Remember that Dan Burton was the leading anti-vax voice in Congress and Darrel Issa appears to have taken up his mantle.

          Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

          by ebohlman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:37:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  If You Like Poetry, But Hate War (3+ / 0-)

    Support Small Business: Shop Kos Katalogue - A Riddle Wrapped in a Mystery Inside an Enigma

    by JekyllnHyde on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:57:28 PM PST

  •  985,095 registered users on dKos now. (10+ / 0-)

    Here are the 10 newest registered users on dKos.  Hope to see their comments and diaries here soon!  (If they're not spammers.)

    NOdollarsINgovt
    tara25
    antonio8nu6 (user #985,088: spammer)
    margie chalofsky
    istraus
    pranto
    gimmeshou (user #985,092: spammer)
    erick0020 (user #985,093: spammer)
    hudson210k (user #985,094: spammer)
    Liberty Bell


    And since our society is obsessed with numbers that end in a lot of zeros as milestones, here's a special shoutout to user #985,000: InfographicsIMEditionReview (hmm....)

    We've added 160 more users in the last 24 hours.  We're no longer being flooded with all those fake users.


    And for your Diary Rescue music pleasure, here's Imagine Dragons' "Demons".

  •  How to deal with a anti-abortion protester/ (10+ / 0-)

    lunatic who disrupts a veteran's memorial. This happened in Albuquerque today, and I was so moved I diaried it:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Do watch the video. I particularly loved it when the elderly vet with a cane grabbed the anti's sign and ripped it up ;)

    "I don't love writing, but I love having written" ~ Dorothy Parker // Visit my Handmade Gallery on Zibbet

    by jan4insight on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:59:03 PM PST

  •  And Probably Shitty Parents In Many Respects (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, Larsstephens

    I mean, seriously, people that are incoherent in their self righteousness? How'd you like to have that for a parent?

    In fact, that sort of self righteousness over something inane is what you might  expect from someone that is overcompensating because they know in their own hearts they are shits.

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 08:59:37 PM PST

  •  Celebrating 10 years of DK today. (10+ / 0-)

    I thought about doing a diary and engaging in a wallow of reminiscence, but then I thought better of it since today marks a much more important anniversary.  The Veterans Day and Armistice Day diaries were very moving indeed.  DK at its best.

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:05:19 PM PST

    •  "if I claim to be a wise man... (4+ / 0-)

      ...well
      It surely means that I don't know"

      "Carry on my wayward son
      There'll be peace when you are done
      Lay your weary head to rest
      Don't you cry no more

      Once I rose above the noise and confusion
      Just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion
      I was soaring ever higher
      But I flew too high

      Though my eyes could see I still was a blind man
      Though my mind could think I still was a mad man
      I hear the voices when I'm dreaming
      I can hear them say

      Masquerading as a man with a reason
      My charade is the event of the season
      And if I claim to be a wise man, well
      It surely means that I don't know

      On a stormy sea of moving emotion
      Tossed about I'm like a ship on the ocean
      I set a course for winds of fortune
      But I hear the voices say

      No!

      Carry on, you will always remember
      Carry on, nothing equals the splendor
      Now your life's no longer empty
      But surely heaven waits for you

      Carry on my wayward son
      There'll be peace when you are done
      Lay your weary head to rest
      Don't you cry (don't you cry no more)"


      "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:20:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oral Arguments tomorrow - Rosemond v US (5+ / 0-)

    "I Didn't Know the Gun ... !" SCOTUS to Hear Rosemond v. US

    The Courtroom of the Supreme Court
    Tomorrow this courtroom will be full.

    For decades, state and Federal criminal laws have imposed heavier penalties on crimes where a firearm is in play. What about accomplices who may not have had anything to do with the gun? What does a prosecutor have to show to prove a perp is guilty of the armed offense? This is the question to be argued before the Court in Rosemond v. US tomorrow (Tuesday) at 10am.


    The Daily Kos Firearms Law and Policy group studies actions for reducing firearm deaths and injuries in a manner that is consistent with the current Supreme Court interpretation of the Second Amendment.

    In case you missed our diaries on GUN LAWS petitioning the SUPREME COURT, TRPChicago has kicked our SCOTUS coverage up a couple notches. His terrific analysis of the Schrader v. Holder case is covering material that no one is reporting on. Even the attorneys writing at SCOTUSBlog could not be bothered to write about Schrader's case. IMO the case is a mini civics lesson in itself and provides a point on which Dems really could get together at the intersection of civil rights/gun rights, and find common ground across the "gun culture divide." Tom really brought that tension out very well.

    60 Cases and Counting: What Gun Case Will SCOTUS Take Next?
    SCOTUS Declines to Hear Navy Vet's Gun Rights Appeal
    Concealed Carry Law Petitions SCOTUS - Woollard v. Gallagher DENIED cert

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:06:01 PM PST

  •  used to believe that big lie... (10+ / 0-)

    ...about vaccines. Went a few years without my flu shot. Then my family doc (literally) marched my stubborn butt down to his nurse's office and made me get it. That was three years ago. Believe it or not, I never got the flu or sick from it. And the added bonus-I guess because I can't prove it-- is that I went those three years without so much as a head cold, too. Got mine this year. Jenny McCarthy probably means well, but I'll take my chances with the formaldehyde, thank you.

    "I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast, for I intend to go in harm's way." John Paul Jones

    by ImpeachKingBushII on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:07:36 PM PST

  •  Massive Philippines typhoon (6+ / 0-)

    Chris Hayes talked about the damage with Radley Horton and Esperanza Garcia.

    Rachel talked about it with Bettina Luescher.

    Lawrence talked about it with Harry Smith and Dr. Nancy Snyderman.

  •  60 Minutes lies on Benghazi (4+ / 0-)

    For some reason, Chris Hayes' report on the lie-filled 60 Minutes report on Benghazi, and their retraction, isn't online.  He had talked with David Brock and Steven Reiner.

    Ed talked about it with Katrina Vanden Heuvel and Eric Boehlert.

  •  The anti-vaccine movement is dangerious (14+ / 0-)

    for the exact same reason why nationalized health care is good for society.

    By developing a collective and cohesive healthcare system that acts to both PREVENT and address quickly transmittable diseases we develop herd immunity and improve our healthcare system and reduce the demands on that system.

    The psychopaths in the anti vaccine movement are a significant threat to that.

    Those people are the left's birthers. But even more dangerous as their actions have direct impacts. (Pictures the birthers stupidity with the added benefit of being a willing plague carrier).  

  •  Veterans Day (6+ / 0-)

    Chris talked with veterans Chris Marvin, Rebekah Havrilla, and Bob Herbert.

    Rachel and Ed also had segments about our veterans.

  •  Gun bullies (5+ / 0-)

    Lawrence talked with Kelly Bowman about the intimidation they faced from pro-gun people in Texas.

    Ed talked about it with Shannon Watts.

  •  Something to spend a few minutes on... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, Larsstephens

    Lead your life - don't let your life lead you.

    by lineatus on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:20:35 PM PST

  •  Obamacare (6+ / 0-)

    Lawrence noted that the New York Times finally talked about what he's been saying for years about the enforcement of the individual mandate.

    Ed talked with Rep. Jim McDermott (D-WA) about the lies being spread by Fox News and the GOP about Obamacare.

  •  Josh Marshall at TPM nails it (9+ / 0-)

    If you have the chance, read the whole thing. It's excellent.

    Lara Logan's Bogus "Correction":

    I just watched the 60 Minutes "correction"/apology tonight and thought was pretty amazing for its brevity, lack of substance and general obfuscation. If you didn't watch 60 Minutes tonight, it won't take long. It only lasted 90s or so. And you can see it here.

    In a narrow sense, Lara Logan did say she was "sorry." But the entire 90 seconds was aimed at obfuscating what happened.

    Logan said 60 Minutes had found out Thursday that they had been "misled and it was a mistake to include him in our report."

    Include him in their report? He was the report. And even in conceding that her team had been "misled", Logan tiptoed around the real news, which is that it seems clear that Davies' entire story was a fabrication. He wasn't there. So none of the stuff he did could have happened and he cannot have witnessed any of what he claimed to describe.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/...

    "I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

    by Jeff Y on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:23:32 PM PST

    •  His book was the report. One long ad to read it. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Calamity Jean, Jeff Y

      Hints and BS by the gallon.

      Meanwhile, no connection between Libya and Lebanon. Of course not.

      Obama has done pretty well with Libya. that's a tough problem.

      Reagan in Lebanon was a whole 'nother result. A failure that killed Americans and Lebanese, adding to Iranians Reagan was helping to kill in the Iran-Iraq War.

      And Reagan ran away. Surrendered. Got kicked out. Leaving a lake of murders behind.

  •  another Sleepy Hollow KYT diary tonight (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jeff Y, high uintas, Larsstephens, grover

    featuring the play between who's historical facts are more accurate making the dialogue between Abbie and Ichabod more fun to which I invite you http://www.dailykos.com/...

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:24:37 PM PST

  •  And in other news... (6+ / 0-)

    So these were other stories that were covered tonight by MSNBC hosts that the others didn't discuss.

    First, I missed Chris also talking about the Obamacare website and how the GOP is trying to stop the tech guys from fixing it with Anne Filipic.

    Rachel opened her show talking about the incredibly close race for Virginia Attorney General with reporter Max Smith.

    She then covered the latest anti-abortion measures that the Wisconsin GOP tried to ram through with state sen. Jon Erpenbach (D).

    Lawrence talked about 2016 for both parties, with John Bohlinger, Josh Barro, Nia-Malika Henderson, Ari Melber, and Noam Scheiber.

    Ed had some words to say about Sarah Palin's latest ramblings.

  •  WTF (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ZenTrainer, Larsstephens, grover

    Let me get this straight.
    You got pertussis because someone didn't get a shot.
    If the shot works why did you get Pertussis?

    If you didn't get the shot, why are you blaming Jenny McCarthy?

    "If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve; if impeached, I will not leave" -Anon

    by Graebeard on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:26:27 PM PST

  •  Like my diary's title says (5+ / 0-)

    "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:31:30 PM PST

  •  So Chris Christie is trying to say he's not R911G (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, Larsstephens, Naniboujou

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:35:34 PM PST

  •  I attended a Machinists rally today (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas, JML9999, Larsstephens

    "If Wall Street paid a tax on every “game” they run, we would get enough revenue to run the government on." ~ Will Rogers

    by Lefty Coaster on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:35:44 PM PST

  •  Sheriff Joe and AZ police state in Supreme Court (5+ / 0-)

    SUPREME COURT NEWS - FIRST AMENDMENT ATTACK UPON ARIZONA HARASSMENT STATUTE - Sheriff Joe not happy

    Scott Huminski v. City of Surprise, Arizona
    Washington D.C.

    In a filing received by the U.S. Supreme Court, government is portrayed  fervently defending a state criminal harassment statute that makes any speech contrary to the government's goals a crime under.  AZ Rev. Stat. § 13-2921 (criminal harassment)

    Speech that tends to "alarm, annoy or harass" anyone, including government officials and police, is a crime in Arizona. Silencing dissent is the hallmark of a police state.

    Petition for Writ of Certiorari here...

    http://www.scribd.com/...

    No surprise that this statute exists in Arizona.  Under the patently unconstitutionally vague and overbroad harassment statute, this Supreme Court litigation is a crime as is this article when read by a resident of Arizona, say … Sheriff Joe Arpaio.  No doubt that the litigation and this article tends to "annoy" the Sheriff and like-minded residents of Arizona.

  •  Ouchie Zoidberg that's gonna leave a mark (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larsstephens, waterstreet2013

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

    Zuckerberg On Twitter: 'They Drove A Clown Car That Fell Into A Gold Mine'

    Mark Zuckerberg can let you know how he feels about Twitter in less than 140 characters.

    According to "Hatching Twitter," a new book dissecting the history of the short-messaging site by the New York Times' Nick Bilton, Facebook's founder once told close friends that "[Twitter is] such a mess, it’s as if they drove a clown car into a gold mine and fell in." Although the comment is not given a specific date, the book notes that Zuckerberg made it "within the last three years." The comment was highlighted by venture capitalist Paul Kedrosky on Bloomberg TV last week.

    Zuckerberg took the reported jab at Twitter after he was frustrated by the startup not taking one of his acquisition offers. Al Gore had also whiffed on buying the hot startup, despite being emboldened by "copious amounts" of wine and Patron tequlia, and of course, his deep pockets.

    I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

    by JML9999 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 09:48:10 PM PST

  •  Public Health undermined by big ag & farm (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Larsstephens, Calamity Jean

    use of GMO, steroids, and antibiotics; which is a dangerous menace disgrace calamity stupidity which should never have been allowed. Just like fracking, Deepwater, mountain top coal practices and alotta wrong wars.

    it tebble, it hobble; honey lu been shot. - harvey kurtzman

    by renzo capetti on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:14:14 PM PST

  •  Do not read the comment section on that piece. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurel in CA

    It made me think terrible, terrible things.

    I'm living in an age that calls darkness light.

    by electricgrendel on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 10:30:10 PM PST

  •  I had an uncle (5+ / 0-)

    that contracted whooping cough as a child back in the 20s.  The disease left him brain-damaged, and he spent the next 50 years of his life in state institutions for the "retarded".  He was a strong and noble man, and when deinstitutionalization took place, he was the ward heeler and the leading voice of self-advocacy of the deinstitutionalized population.  He will always be my biggest political hero.

    “Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral. ” ― Paulo Freire

    by ActivistGuy on Mon Nov 11, 2013 at 11:02:04 PM PST

  •  Update (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    spacecadet1

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    The movie "Blow" is a biopic about the life of George Jung, played by Johnny Depp. "Boston" George starts out as a small time marijuana dealer and is eventually convicted and sentenced to 60 years in federal prison for smuggling cocaine

    According to the Department of Corrections website, Jung, prisoner #19225-004, is serving time at the federal prison in Fort Dix, New Jersey, and is scheduled for release on November 27, 2014.

    "Ain't no blade can protect you from the True-True." - Old Georgie, Cloud Atlas.

    by klingman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 12:31:49 AM PST

  •  Whooping cough vaccine loses effectiveness (5+ / 0-)

    I don't know why this is not told to more people, but the current version of the whooping cough vaccine is losing its effectiveness in many people around age 25.  You used to get the shot as a child and be immune for life, or at least that was the theory.  However they changed the vaccine to be "accelluar" or just a part of the  bacteria instead of the whole strain.  The unintended consequences of this are that it now wears off quickly.  If you know anyone 20 or younger, they should get the booster shot to protect them into adulthood.

    I'm really into the topic, because I'm one of the statistics.  I got the vaccine as a kid and was up to date.  I hit 25 and became very ill with a terrible cough.  It never occurred to me it was whooping cough until the State Health Dept sent a firm-wide email to my office saying they were required by law to tell us one of my coworkers had been diagnosed with it.  That's how i figured out my 'bad cold' was really whooping cough, passed to me by my coworker.  And i was already past the contagious stage by the time I figured that out.  I spent a full year being sick and it was horrible.  I would have to leave my desk at work to go into the fire escape stairway to cough until i would almost vomit.  A few times I couldn't catch my breath and thought I might pass out from lack of oxygen.  And it doesn't just go away.  After two months of coughing, I slowly recovered.  But out of nowhere the coughing spasms would hit me like a ton of bricks.  It's the only time as an adult I thought I might really die, from lack of oxygen.  And it's preventable if they just made kids get the booster before college.

    •  I had a cousin who traveled to Mexico in the (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Calamity Jean, Andrew Lazarus

      mid-1980's with his wife and six month old daughter, where  the kid contracted whooping cough.

      It was horrific and heart rending to listen to the agony she was in.  She was up on her vaccines - but it doesn't fully protect every infant and she still contracted it.  It took her more than six weeks to recover.

      She was never in danger of dying - the vast majority of kids who get it never are.  The mortality rate is really very low - so low that trying to persuade parents with the 1 in 10,000 chance their kid might die might not actually be the most effective argument to make.

      Every kid who gets it will suffer horrible agony.  It's torture.

      "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

      by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:57:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The biggest reason cited by parents (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, wa ma

    for their children not being up to date on vaccines?  

    They can't get time off from work to take them to get vaccinated.

    The second most common reason? They believe they can't afford it.  The truth is, almost all of them can, but government (and sadly some MD's) does a really shitty job of making sure they know how they can afford it.

    So, yes, McCarthy is an idiot. Not an idiot because she dared to model nude rather than scantily clad, but because she wilfully rejects mountains of clear scientific evidence.

    Any concerns about vaccines are best addressed by advocating thorough independent testing as free from bias as possible, not by rejecting vaccines that have without question saved far more lives than they have ever endangered.

    But it's a lot easier to get pissed at a Playmate (because slut shaming Ad Hom's are always an important part of any well constructed argument) than it is to confront the core reasons for the resurgence of a disease.

    Pervasive economic inequality.

    Anti-Vaxers are responsible for 2-3% of all children not being properly immunized.  Well, if we include Christian Scientists and the like along with McCarthy&Co, and I don't see why we shouldn't.

    But that leaves 7% of all kids, with less than 2% unvaccinated because of immune issues.  The problem of children not being vaccinated for other reasons is twice as big.

    But that puts it back on us, and our failure to fight for paid family leave so that parents with multiple shit part-time jobs can take their kids to be vaccinated.  It puts it back on us to ask why the fuck vaccination clinics aren't being offered in our schools, so that all parents have to do is sign a permission slip.

    "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

    by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:19:56 AM PST

    •  Applying The Scientific Method (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      terrypinder

      Hypothesis: The primary reason herd immunity has been failing recently is economic equality.

      Prediction: The failures of herd immunity should appear first and most severely in impoverished populations.

      Result: Back to the hypothesis drawing board....

      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

      by stevemb on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:02:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Simple fact - only a third of kids who are (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wa ma, nextstep

        not current on their vaccines are unvaccinated because their parents are actually refusing vaccination.

        Simple fact - The author of the cited piece at New Republic (FFS) was out of compliance with CDC guidelines regarding her own vaccinations, which is the primary reason she became sick.

        "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

        by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:09:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think the most important study that could be (0+ / 0-)

      done right now is a study on the effect of OTC pain relievers on vaccine effectiveness as there is an animal study that suggests that using them might reduce the immune response to the vaccine.  The big question is do those drugs affect the COX-1 pathways enough to reduce the effectiveness of the vaccine or not.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:31:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not voting: it only encourages them n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, waterstreet2013
  •  Lest Not Forget that O Winfrey Gave (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, Calamity Jean, Sir Roderick

    McCarthy considerable air time on her afternoon show.

    What a disservice.

  •  The Hoaxes 101 series continues. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zbob

    The Big Hoax in GOP politics remains the Cult of Personality they've constructed for Ronald Reagan.

    That image is their lodestone.

    Two diaries get to inconvenient truths with respect to Reagan's actions as president. First, that he got Americans killed by the hundreds. Stupidly. Assiduously hidden by corporate media:

    Hoaxes 101: Reagan Losing 241 at Beirut in 1983 Didn't Happen No More

    And second that he killed Lebanese by the thousands. He also helped Saddam Hussein with materials that kill Iranians by the tens of thousands.

    Hoaxes 101: Reagan Used Naval Guns to Kill 1,500 Lebanese. Now Those Murders Don't Exist No More

    Ever wonder why there's big time, continuing terrorism ???

    Shakespeare states the mechanism perfectly and the facts give us the answers.

    These diaries take time to read. I am aware that this is a crime, at least a misdemeanor on the internet.

    But I must argue here that you have to understand what happened from Reagan in the early 1980s to understand both Iran and "Hezbollah" today. Reagan created blood debts, a lake of murders.

    [English has "a murder of crows." Why not "a lake of murders" ?]

    The terrorist wing of the Hizb Allah is directly, explicitly in their own words a legacy from Ronald Reagan. Reagan mirrored the later Bush43 with stupid mistakes as Commander in Chief. Bloody and stupid. The work of a dunce.

    So now, of course, Republican propagandists talk endlessly about four American deaths in Libya in 2012. They live in dread that Libya and Lebanon will be connected in the public mind -- a sensible goal for kossacks, surely.

  •  "Claptrap about ....formaldehyde"?? (0+ / 0-)

    Formaldehyde is considered an airborne carcinogen by U.S. EPA and inhalation exposure to formaldehyde can cause pulmonary sensitization and exacerbation of asthmatic symptoms.

    See EPA's IRIS data for formaldehyde here:

    http://www.epa.gov/...

    Formaldehyde is also a volatile organic compound that contributes to tropospheric ozone/smog formation.

    •  The amount of formaldehyde actually present (0+ / 0-)

      in vaccines is tiny compared to the amount produced by normal human metabolism, which in turn is tiny compared to the amount involved in the kinds of industrial exposures that are associated with respiratory disease and increased cancer risk.

      Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

      by ebohlman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:48:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  is formaldehyde used for anti-bacterial action (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ebohlman

        in vaccines as an intentionally added vaccine formulation
        constituent,...... or is the formaldehyde that is present  result from some type of unintended artifact of the the vaccine manufacturing and formulation process?

        •  It's a trace remnant of the manufacturing (0+ / 0-)

          process for killed-virus vaccines (it's used to denature the virus to make it non-infectious, and trace quantities are left over). It's not used as a preservative.

          Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

          by ebohlman on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:51:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Formaldehye's structure with the high electro- (0+ / 0-)

            negativity arising from the outer shell electrons of the
            oxygen would probably mean that formaldehyde, itself, would be consumed in what it was reacting with....

          •  By the way, thank you for your participation as a (0+ / 0-)

            physician on Daily Kos which is volunteer work as a progressive Democrat in a time when there is a great deal of public ignorance of scientific and medical knowledge and insight in many portions of our society.

            •  I'm not a physician (0+ / 0-)

              though my current signature is a quote from one.

              Personally, as a physician, I would be very concerned at a child becoming febrile after having ingested bleach or had it shot up his rectum—Orac (Respectful Insolence)

              by ebohlman on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 05:58:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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