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Whooping cough is no laughing matter. As this reporter notes, having caught the disease:
At this writing, I have been coughing for 72 days. Not on and off coughing, but continuously, every day and every night, for two and a half months. And not just coughing, but whooping: doubled over, body clenched, sucking violently for air, my face reddening and my eyes watering. Sometimes, I cough so hard, I vomit. Other times, I pee myself. Both of these symptoms have become blessedly less frequent, and I have yet to break a rib coughing—also a common side effect.

... There’s a reason that we associate the whooping cough with the Dickensian: It is. The illness has, since the introduction of a pertussis vaccine in 1940, has been conquered in the developed world. For two or three generations, we’ve come to think of it as an ailment suffered in sub-Saharan Africa or in Brontë novels. And for two or three generations, it was.

Several clarifications were pointed out in this article by Tara Haelle. But what struck me was the content of a bunch of anti-vaxer commenters who swarmed the original post, many locking in on a term called shedding, which they used to blame those of us who get vaccinated for outbreak as opposed to those who avoid them. It's classic pseudoscientific bunk and hostile ignorance on parade. Plus I do not think the word shedding in that context means what they think it means.
  • A warming ocean leads to more than just super storms, it can fundamentally change the chemistry of the water that bodes for the delicate marine ecosystems below.
  • Meet Ming the Mollusk, who passed away peacefully at a mere 500 years old.
  • Would you like to watch Comet ISON? There's an app for that!
  • The grim toll from Super Typhoon Haiyan continues to rise.
  • Tomorrow morning beginning around 9:30 AM EDT we'll be joined by renowned climatologist Michael Mann to discuss current weather events and some new material he has published. If all goes as planned he'll be available in comments to respond to your remarks. You can follow us at @MichaelEMann or @SAndrewDKos, and I'll post a hashtag tomorrow to field questions there as well.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:00 AM PST.

Also republished by SciTech.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Good Morning (8+ / 0-)

    Looking forward to tomorrow's post

    Thanks for Science Saturday.

    Hope your doing well these days

  •  I fear that climate change is irreversible now (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a2nite, TPain, atana, RiveroftheWest

    The typhoon is now the new normal

    •  The new normal? It's just the first clue as to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest

      what "change" means.

      This is now. It will be different 10 years from now. And different more so 50 years from now.

      100 years of continued warming? A shudder to think what a typhoon will look like then.

      Beyond 2100 without reversing atmospheric GHGs? All bets are off.



      "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."

      - Louis Brandies

      by Pescadero Bill on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 08:11:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I shudder to think what people 200 years from now (0+ / 0-)

        will be saying about us.

        "Couldn't they SEE what they were doing?! Didn't they KNOW wtf would happen? Look at us now, sob!"

        What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

        by TerryDarc on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:49:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I Bet Many Sandy Hook Truthers Are Also Antivax (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aaraujo, a2nite, judyms9, rbird

    We tend to assume each of these antisocial groups is a distinct set of individuals, but I think many of them are the same people with moderately bad  mental problems who pop up around a various issues.

    Sometimes conspiracies are an important part of their beliefs, but mostly it just seems to be the desire to sabotage vulnerable people and waste everyone else's time.

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:34:58 AM PST

    •  I've met some anti-vaxxers and they were all RWNJs (7+ / 0-)
      •  There's Probably A Few Here nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DrTerwilliker

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:48:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  well, we have our share of anti-vaxxers here (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laurel in CA, TPain, rbird

        They used to show up pretty regularly, but have now been quiet for a while. They probably lost some wind from their sails.

        Our side has its contingent of anti-science kookers too, just like the RWNJs do. Some of the anti-GMO people, for instance, don't understand basic biology--and I won't even talk about all the New Age, alternative medicine, and flying saucer woo-woo's. The difference is that the RW lets their anti-science nutters run the EPA, and our side just laughs at its anti-science fringe.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:49:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Once you reject critical thinking (4+ / 0-)

        You're a mark for cons, hustles, conspiracy theories, paranoia, and, eventually, fear and racism.  

        In other words, once you reject the ability to think critically, using facts and evidence, you're a republican.

      •  I've met more than a few lefties. (4+ / 0-)

        There are LWNJ also. I used to work with someone who insisted that polio vaccines didn't prevent polio, but caused it.  

        I think mainstream progressives have far fewer NJs than do mainstream conservatives. I think we tend not to enable and encourage our NJs, and as a result, they gravitate towards far left fringe groups.

        Just another underemployed IT professional computer geek.

        by RhodeIslandAspie on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:21:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Polio vaccine causes polio? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rbird

          That would account, I suppose, in the massive increase in polio cases since 1955 when they started vaccinating in this country. I remember my little sis who was 5 and got some of the first available vaccine.

          These idiots forget what an absolutely devastating, terrifying disease polio is. They are certainly not going to let facts stand in there way.

          I now live in a politically liberal enclave (with an unhealthy heaping of woo) that is nationally known for being a hotbed of anti-vaxxers. Sigh...

          The trouble is: you cannot talk to them.

          What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

          by TerryDarc on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:57:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Greg Dworkin says they are liberals (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rbird

        I disagreed, saying they were more in the strain of survivalists, look-out-for-your-own and devil take the hindmost.

        They are as emotionally involved (i.e. unchangeable) as the most fundamentalist, snake waving evangelical.

        What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

        by TerryDarc on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:51:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you can find them at HuffPost (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TPain, rbird

          you can find them in liberal Marin County. You can find them here.

          Then there's Bill Maher.

          To say they are all RWNJ is demonstrably false.

          "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 10:06:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not saying there are NO libtard antivaxxers (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Greg Dworkin

            but I think this is an omni-political idiocy. The crystals/pyramid power/aromatherapy crowd may be more open than your average no-nothing honky. Openness may tend toward liberality.  But I really don't see one or the other of them having a lock on anti-vax stupidity.  

            We may have to agree to disagree on the political strain of anti-vaxxers, doc.

            What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

            by TerryDarc on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 04:54:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  oh, i certainly never said they are only leftists (0+ / 0-)

              "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" — Upton Sinclair

              by Greg Dworkin on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 08:41:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Beck, eh? (0+ / 0-)

                Well, we just learned that someone was preventing polio vaccines in the Sudan and I've heard that the Taliban is very, very pissed at the offing of OBL with the aid of a doctor who gained blood samples that led to DNA ID of bin Laden.

                Certainly the RW is going to be strongly represented in whatever kind of stupid stuff going down. They definitely have a talent for misunderstanding nearly everything. OTOH, being progressive/liberal is no antidote for stupidity.

                I'll give you Bill Mahar, a genuine lib (tho not my fave) and I'll take Beck. So, we're even which I think was my point (and maybe yours), that it's not just libs being anti-vax, anti-science but a spectrum of idiocy, covering America.

                What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. King Henry, scene ii

                by TerryDarc on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:20:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Some folks just think it's smart to be contrarian, (4+ / 0-)

      to jump out of the mainstream and keep waving and calling attention to themselves based on the tenet that any kind of attention gives one power.  It's the rightwing's version of show business.  Think Gingrich, Coulter, Overdrive.

      Building a better America with activism, cooperation, ingenuity and snacks.

      by judyms9 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:51:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  some people have massive martyr complexes and (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WinSmith, PinHole, judyms9, TerryDarc, rbird

        ENJOY being the victims.

        Monty Python did the best satire of them ever:

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:57:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Being a contrarian may not solve any great social (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bernardpliers, rbird

        problems, but one can often earn a nice living for themselves being a contrarian. If you are good enough at calling attention to yourself, there will always be money making opportunities, not matter how absurd your arguments.

        Just look at talk radio. Look at the professors who can make a living out of being wrong.

        Just another underemployed IT professional computer geek.

        by RhodeIslandAspie on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:25:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have to wonder whether the woo-woo sellers (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RhodeIslandAspie, TerryDarc, rbird

          actually believe any of the crapola they peddle, or if it's just a quick and easy way to make a living off people's gullibility. When I hear idiotic horse shit like "Bigfoot is the ghost of extinct early hominids" (serious, no joke), I have to wonder just how seriously any of these guys actually takes any of it.

          But then, I wonder the same thing about people like Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, and Michelle Malkin----do they really believe any of what they say, or are they just pandering to the braindead, selling the rubes what the rubes want to buy, and laughing at them all the way to the bank.

          It's hard to tell.

          It's a good thing I have ethics---I could make quite a nice living writing idiotic but great-sounding horse shit to sell to the LWNJ's . . .

          In the end, reality always wins.

          by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:35:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It almost doesn't matter. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bernardpliers, TerryDarc

            The damage is the same either way. Whether they believe it or not is probably more of a question for the mental health community to resolve.

            Just another underemployed IT professional computer geek.

            by RhodeIslandAspie on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:46:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Belief" Is A Mental Health Issue (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RhodeIslandAspie

              There are actual delusions, but then there are also lies that someone tells themselves until they believe it.

              For instance, in any joint counseling situation, one person is lying their ass off as hard as they can (actually people take turns).

              But when someone lies and the get rewarded (sympathy) for lying, for all practical purposes, they come to "believe" their own lies.  Certainly they believe their own bullshit at least as much as a rational person believes things, since a rational person leaves room for ambiguity.  It is the mentally ill person that sees everything in stark black and white terms, so they might believe any random thought with an intensity that is beyond a rational person.  

              Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

              by bernardpliers on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:05:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Ann Coulter knows she's just an entertainer (0+ / 0-)

            Michelle Bachmann is a true believer.
            And Michelle Malkin is just crazier than a rabid weasel.

    •  woo-woo is an ideology (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TPain, rbird

      That's what makes it impervious to logic or scientific data. I have found that many people on both sides of the political spectrum will swallow any idiotic conspiracy theory, as long as it tells them what they already want to hear ("the US is a fascist police state" or "corporations are evil" or "liberals are communists" or whatever).

      And yes, people who swallow one idiotic CT tend to swallow all the others too that tell them what they already want to hear.

      In the end, reality always wins.

      by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:54:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Someone should tell them the shocking news... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ebohlman

        ...the universe doesn't give a shit about our beliefs.  Bacteria aren't much into debates, they just want to snack on us.  Viruses want to use us as incubators.

        Knowing this, I proudly shout:  "Sign me up for every fucking vaccine out there!  Inject me, doc!"  And yes, I did get the flu vaccine this year.

        Join Essa in a revolt against the gods. Continue the fight, Causality.

        by rbird on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 12:38:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks DarkSyde nt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TerryDarc, rbird

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:40:51 AM PST

  •  This anti-vaccine business is so tedious, as (14+ / 0-)

    well as downright dangerous. I've been vaccinated for smallpox twice, polio twice, tetanus several times, and recently I had myself vaccinated against shingles and whooping cough.

    The idiots who are against vaccination live in a nice, middle-class world completely insulated from the raging reality of disease--because they were all vaccinated as children.  Just let them travel to Africa or South America or Asia to see what "unvaccination" can do to a population.

    They should get down on bended knees and thank medical science for vaccines.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:43:51 AM PST

    •  I put off getting a shingles vaccine because of (9+ / 0-)

      its $280 cost.  I got the shingles and ended up having to take expensive antiviral meds and mega-ibuprofen.  And then the doc told me to get the vaccine after the shingles resolved because while it's uncommon, they can recur.  So penny wise...
      And as a toddler I had whooping cough when there was an outbreak of it in our area and before any vaccine had been developed.  I remember my parents taking turns sitting up with me and changing the steaming water under a blanket tent they put over my bed.  My mom said she lost 12 pounds and 12 years of her life with all the worry.  Luckily the vaccine arrived before my seven sibling did.

      Building a better America with activism, cooperation, ingenuity and snacks.

      by judyms9 on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:58:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes - shingles is terrible (4+ / 0-)

        and as you point out, expensive.  

        Also expensive in terms of exhaustion, not just the pain, sores and itch.  Regular doc referred me to dermatologist.  When I asked him about registering for a state-wide meeting, 2 months away, he said he doubted I would be able to attend, given the severity of the case I had.  He was right, I was exhausted for 3-4 months.  

        Several friends after seeing what I went through were quick to line up for the vaccine.  

        I had whooping cough too (see below) - even though I had the vaccine.  

    •  Vaccines, food and water safety: thank you! (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Diana in NoVa, rbird, myboo, atana

      I was a "polio pioneer" in the original Salk vaccine trials as a small child. I have friends who were polio survivors; I am eternally grateful for Dr. Salk's work. Had Bush the Lesser not started his various wars in the last parts of the world where it was endemic, we might have succeeded in eradicating polio by now, as we did with smallpox. Huge accomplishments of public health and medical research, along with safe food and water supplies (which are still not available to everyone; there is more work to do!)

      I get tetanus shot every 10 years (ending in 0, easy to remember.) And a flu shot every year, part of my med school employment. I keep the other immunizations including pertussis up to date, and I've had both shingles and pneumonia as well. I had pneumonia a couple of times, relatively mild cases, but I don't want to get it again! The dean of the med school, a wonderful man as well as doctor, caught me at work the day after I was diagnosed and sent me home. As he put it, "I've treated a lot of young people who were very sick for months, and you're not 21 any more!"

      So yes, medical science and public health folks deserve our thanks - and our support.

      •  (had vaccines, not shingles!) (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rbird, myboo

        I got the shingles vaccine and pneumonia vaccine - as soon as I was old enough to be eligible - not shingles, thank goodness. It was sort of mysterious to me, though, why the guidelines for pneumonia vaccine did not include "history of pneumonia" as an indication for it, just age.

  •  I read that anti-anti-vax article (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lonely Liberal in PA, palantir, TPain

    and came away somewhat gripey at the author. I understand the intended humor, but equating anti-vax "lifestyle" with people choosing to eat organic food or educate their children in Montessori schools really bugged me.

    She sounded like John Stossel.

    I think she could have made the same points without sounding like a culture warrior.

  •  Whooping Cough (5+ / 0-)

    veteran here.  

    Three months plus - age 7-8.  Had the vaccination, but got it anyway.  Ended up meaning I had to repeat 2nd grade, because they didn't do in home tutoring in the 1950's.  

    After recovery, had another vaccination.  My maternal grandmother (born in late 1800's) supposedly had it twice - pre-vaccination days.  Current docs will say that is impossible, but that is what happened. She was the one who ended up taking care of me most of the time, so poor thing went through it again. :-(

    I think it is a tough disease to get rid of.  That said, I don't like to see vaccinations bundled the way they are.  This is not to say I do not believe in them as another here accused me of quite harshly and unjustly, but rather the delivery should be spread out a bit.  As you can see, no one needs to worry about this 60+ yr old acting on my beliefs.

    Love the Cassini pics!  

    •  Both my wife and my son... (7+ / 0-)

      came down with Whooping Cough one summer. My son had the vaccine, but he turned out to be one of several kids in the area whose vaccine was ineffective.

      Both of them started with cold-like symptoms, but as the cough developed into a long, exhausting series that would leave them gasping for breath and more than once caused my wife to pass out, we got desperate for at least a definitive diagnoses.

      What we found: most doctors don't even recognize whooping cough when they see it. My son's doctor said it was asthma, despite the evidence that my wife had come down with it at the same time, and handed my son an inhaler. My wife's doctor wouldn't believe that she didn't smoke and sent her in for X-rays suspecting lung cancer or emphysema.

      It took my grandmother to make the diagnoses.

      In the end, both of them spent over two months barely able to rise out of bed, just coughing their heads off day and night. I wasn't sure they were going to live. I wasn't sure I was going to live. After 60+ days of listening to that cough I wasn't even sure I wanted to live. It's a flipping awful disease.

      Thankfully, they both recovered, though my son was left with life-long reduced lung capacity.

    •  It's not unusual to get Whooping Cough twice. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PinHole, TerryDarc, RiveroftheWest

      The immunity wanes over time, faster with the vaccine, a little slower when you have had the disease. Either way it can happen.  What makes it unusual is the odds of getting it twice.  Once is uncommon, twice if very uncommon, like hitting a homerun on consecutive at bats with a batting average of .150

      Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. Dalai Lama

      by TPain on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 08:24:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  unfamiliarity (6+ / 0-)

    Today's doctors don't know how to spot whooping cough--thus it gets both under and over treated.  My daughter tested positive for the germ, but didn't have the classic symptoms.  Many doctors in and out of the ER gave her meds and albutural for her coughing thinking she had the disease.  Finally, a doctor at Duke dxed her with a paralyzed vocal chord--gave her exercises--and cured her.

    Doctors of today don't recognize the illness, which is very dangerous.  What I'm getting at is some with the diagnosis might not really be sick from it.  Ask my daughter.

    Actions speak louder than petitions.

    by melvynny on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 06:47:05 AM PST

    •  We know how to recognize it... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      myboo, atana

      ...well most of us.  But it can be difficult to recognize.  Most people don't have a whoop just a cough that's in the worse 20% of coughs that come in to the clinic.  You can't check everyone with a cough for whooping cough and most of the time there is nothing to do for them so we treat the symptoms as best we can and worry less about the cause.  

      During a recognized outbreak in an area, we are more likely to diagnose it because then it is worth it to check those with suspicious coughs and they are more likely to come in early when antibiotics might prevent spread.

      Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. Dalai Lama

      by TPain on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 08:28:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sometimes they do learn (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    palantir, TPain, TerryDarc

    One cousin of mine was very anti-medication and anti-vax.  Until her son got a disease (I don't remember, and I'm not sure I ever knew, which one) that could have been avoided.

    Adding insult to injury, they didn't give the poor kid simple Tylenol.  Result:  a seizure.  He's fine, but that scared his parents enough that vaccines are now up to date, and Tylenol is dispensed when a fever is apparent.

    (-6.38, -7.03) Moderate left, moderate libertarian

    by Lonely Liberal in PA on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:06:54 AM PST

  •  So, dont molluscs get old? Whats up with that? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    fugwb, palantir, Churchill

    Of course, I imagine living at the bottom of the ocean for 500 years could be considered a low stress lifestyle.

    •  Yes (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      palantir, TPain, Churchill, bythesea, myboo, wonmug
      Meet Ming the Mollusk, who passed away peacefully at a mere 500 years old
      I read the article. Ming was dredged up then put in a freezer. Couple years later they studied her/him and discovered how old he/she was. Not to quibble, but if I was pulled from my home (under the water) and put in a freezer till I died, I don't think I'd call that peacefully. Considering did she/he die of suffocation or freezing? But of course they say freezing to death is pretty painless but that's like saying getting your head severed is painless. Who's around to argue. And I know, it's JUST a mollusk, so who really gives a shit....?

      "If fighting for a more equal and equitable distribution of the wealth of this country is socialistic, I stand guilty of being a socialist." Walter Reuther

      by fugwb on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:47:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'll bet for a mollusk (0+ / 0-)

        that was the most excitement it had since it attached itself to a rock

      •  forgive the gruesome aside here, but . . . (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TerryDarc, RiveroftheWest
        But of course they say freezing to death is pretty painless but that's like saying getting your head severed is painless. Who's around to argue.
        As I recall (and I'm going entirely on memory here) there were actually some experiments done in this area . . .  During the French Revolution, some people noticed that the severed heads at the guillotine occasionally moved their lips as if they were still trying to say something, which led someone (a doctor, IIRC) to perform an experiment. For several executions, the doctor would pick up the severed head and loudly call the victim's name several times, to see if the eyes would look at him in response. He found that it often indeed took a short amount of time for a severed head to actually die.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 08:30:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tell that to this guy (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TerryDarc, RiveroftheWest

          I heard those stories too. I believe it didnt happen 'often' - after all, your blood pressure instantly falls to 'zero' - but it did happen. Spooky. Its worth noting the guillotine wasnt invented just to be a great piece of theatre (tho it sure was that) but as a more HUMANE way of execution than hanging, garroting, or being taken out and shot. I think Id choose it over those alternatives too.

          http://www.slate.com/...

          •  I remember (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RiveroftheWest

            seeing a show on tv concerning capital punishment. I person was filming from an upstairs window a guillotining in France. It was some distance away but you could see how they "sanitized" the process. When the blade came down the head, which was covered, dropped into a box and the body, which was lying longways, instantly was ejected into a box away from the viewers. I think if you were standing right there you wouldn't see nothing. There would be a clunk then everything would be gone.....

            "If fighting for a more equal and equitable distribution of the wealth of this country is socialistic, I stand guilty of being a socialist." Walter Reuther

            by fugwb on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:27:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I was going to point out the error in that comment (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DrTerwilliker, fugwb

        Ming did not die a peaceful death.  Unfortunate would be a better term.  Can't call if violent because it is the expected result of harvesting the sea floor anyway.

        Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. Dalai Lama

        by TPain on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 08:30:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Government Run Astronomy! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    palantir
  •  Vaccines can have nasty side effects. (3+ / 0-)

    But that's nothing compared to may happen by not having vaccines.

    More contemptible than the anti-science wingnuts who eschew vaccines, are the anti-vaccines who know better. There are those parents who know vaccines save lives, but because of that ever so slight possibility of side effects, they keep their kids from getting vaccinated and hope the rest of the herd gets their shots. Let other parents kids assume the risk, while their kids get the benefits.  It's the free rider effect.

    Free riders stop being a good deal when too many others get the idea of being free riders. We are witnessing this with the outbreak of these epidemics.

    Just another underemployed IT professional computer geek.

    by RhodeIslandAspie on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 07:30:06 AM PST

  •  Ming the Mullosk, RIP, 1499-2006 (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TPain, TerryDarc, bythesea

    80 % of Success is Just Showing Up!

    by Churchill on Sat Nov 16, 2013 at 09:40:44 AM PST

  •  Vaccination is not even modern medicine (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiveroftheWest

    The understanding of why vaccination works is modern, but people were doing it long before they knew why it works.

    Immunology texts begin with Edward Jenner (1749–1823), but Jenner's milkmaid was practicing vaccination and gave him the idea to study it. A century earlier Lady Mary Wortley Montague, the wife of the British Ambassador to Istanbul, observed people using vaccination in Turkey and introduced the practice to England -- beginning with her own son.

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