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I share no sense of linked fate with Marvell Weaver, the hoodlum who was arrested for playing the "knockout game" and then decided to do an interview with the local news about his exploits.

After watching Weaver's pathetic explanation for the logic of his crime, I am left wondering what happened to shame?

Right-wing trolls are doing their best to play up the foolishness called the "knockout game". It is a new moral panic that combines white anxieties about black criminality, fear of black young people, and stereotypes about "African-American violence" which have been cultivated by white supremacists since Reconstruction.

The emails, comments, and stories on Right-wing websites about the faux moral panic "knockout game" phenomena are not rooted in a fair concern about crime and youth brigandry. Rather, the "knockout game" meme is rooted in a pathologically white racist obsession with "black crime"--what is alone and unique in its distinction, as white privilege has disallowed any discussion of "white crime" in America's public discourse.

There is no assumption made by the White Right that the majority of black people disapprove of the criminals among us. Moreover, the White Right is incapable of such an inference because the White Gaze sees black and brown people as an undifferentiated mass and a hive mind, one step removed from savage beasts. And there is most certainly no understanding by the White Right of the range of nuance and pragmatic politics in the African-American community.

America is highly segregated along lines of race and class. Most white people do not have African-Americans or other people of color in their friendship or social networks. Consequently, many of them actually believe the distorted and stereotypical images of black crime and vulgarity that are circulated by the mass media.

Once more, white racism hurts white people because an obsession with outlier silliness such as the "knockout game" distracts them from the murderers and rapists in their own neighborhoods and families. The conservative noise machine's obsession with "black crime" also creates a type of magical glamour which masks how white people are overwhelmingly the victims of crimes committed by people who look just like them.

Ultimately, the pathological white racists who are obsessed with "black crime" and "the knockout game" are incapable of seeing African-Americans as individual human beings. The White Right's fixation on these issues sells books, gets hits on websites, and fills up time on TV and radio. It also does political work for conservatives by ginning up white resentment. This move blinds white voters to the real criminals, the plutocrats and corporatists, who have been committing wholesale violence against the American people.

I make my best effort to write and speak with precision about issues of race and cultural politics. But sometimes, one has to default to some basic and simple concepts: the conservatives and Right-wing media bloviators who are circulating this "knockout game" meme are stupid. Why? Because their own black crime fixation robs them of the capacity to ask a basic question. The street hoodlums playing this "game" are the same thugs who attack and terrorize black and brown urban communities. Occam's razor demands that African-Americans and others who live in those communities would have the least use and tolerance for such nonsense.

To come to such an obvious conclusion indicates two things. First, members of the White Right would actually have to know real black folks (as opposed to the hired and paid for black conservatives who are trotted out as "exceptional negroes" whose only purpose is to excuse-make for white racism). Second, members of the White Right would have to assume that people of color are not that much different from them.

The Right-wing's dream-nightmare of black crime and the "knockout game" is just one more of the many little white lies that sustain the psychologically maladapted and delusional Whiteness that has possessed contemporary conservatism in the post civil rights era and the Age of Obama.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The social segregation by "race" (20+ / 0-)

    allows these fearful people to label this ridiculous "game" as "black" instead of the more accurate "young" and "stupid."

    I have to assume our national memory space is too limited for us to note the remarkable similarity of "knockout" to "wilding."

    I live under the bridge to the 21st Century.

    by Crashing Vor on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 09:05:48 AM PST

  •  I just recently saw that on the front page of (6+ / 0-)

    Comcast. I was curious and clicked on it. Soon as I saw it was a young black guy, I thought WTF, is this a FOX piece of propaganda.

    There is so much of this crap going on in the media. Is it  purposeful of simply leakage of attitudes and perception limitations of set in attitudes? Cops is the worst show to try to paint young blacks as criminals simply by virtue of hugely over represented  black offenders being shown. I refused to let the show ever be turned on after cops stopped a young black woman walking down the street and accused her of being a prostitute with absolutely no proof, just simple prejudice. I am white and if cops did that to me I would be so furious that they would probably have to arrest me or shoot me (Ok probably wouldn't shoot me since I am a white female, which means I would probably never be stopped) for attacking them and trying to kick their butts. How can they bear it?  Just thinking about this makes my blood boil.

    Fear is the Mind Killer...

    by boophus on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 09:12:35 AM PST

  •  This reminds me of the media frenzy over "wilding" (9+ / 0-)

    years ago. A handful of incidents get blown into a crime wave and more kids get shot.

  •  Be careful (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mikejay611

    Posting links to stories about civilians who used guns in self defense is not a good way to make friends around here.

    "states like VT and ID are not 'real america'" -icemilkcoffee

    by Utahrd on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 09:49:02 AM PST

  •  Come on- you are blaming white racists for this? (13+ / 0-)

    Yes white racism exist. White racists loom large in our national dialogues since 2009. Yes, white racists have jumped on this issue with glee. But let's be honest here- this is black youths behaving in outrageous and sociopathic ways. If white racists are calling them out that is because they deserve to be called out. Black youths knocking people out for laughs and having flash mobs to steal things and terrorize people is completely and entirely sickening. Don't try to deflect attention away by pointing fingers at white racists. White racists are despicable, but they didn't cause these black youths to behave like this.

    If you want to reinforce the notion that "the majority of black people disapprove of the criminals among us", then you need to do exactly that- disapprove. Condemn these criminal acts loudly and often. And don't deflect attention away by pointing at white racists.

    •  It seems to me (9+ / 0-)

      that the diarist agrees that the kids doing this deserve to be called out- he certainly calls them out in this diary.

      What he objects to is white racists who use the behavior of a few thugs (to use his word) to justify treating all kids of color as criminals.

      •  This is not the best time to make the argument (7+ / 0-)

        that white racists are overreacting.  Certainly, there are racists out there.  But you don't take something as horrific as what these young men are doing and use their horrific conduct as a basis for calling out the white racists.  It sounds a little too much like trying to shift the focus away from the horrific conduct.

        All of the anger here needs to be directed against these young men, who are living out the worst stereotype that racists have -- that young African American men will go around attacking, and killing, people (some attacks have resulted in death) just for the fun of it.  All of the anger needs to be directed at them, for living out the worst possible stereotype that any racist could have of young African American men.  

        I completely agree that there are racists out there, and that when they display that racism, they need to be called on it.  But this does not, to me, seem to be the right instance to try to shift the focus from the thugs to the white racists.  

    •  Don't be gullible (6+ / 0-)

      This is another bullshit moral panic, along the lines of "cocaine crazed negroes," Satanic Ritual Abuse, Dungeons and Dragons occult bullshit, and "wilding." I'm not denying that there are young, poor kids who do dumb and reckless things and deserve to go to prison for assaulting people. Anyone can do that. But what I'm saying is that this isn't something specific and I don't appreciate media attempts to say that this is some black "superpredators" who are running wild, bereft of any traces of humanity. It's taking a few incidents and blowing them out of proportion, into a trend. Don't buy into this.

      •  Exactly. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, Eyesbright, AoT, Lost and Found

        This smells of the media jumping on shark attacks that RARELY happen.

        One would have to have some racial fears to fall for this.

      •  Perhaps they are high on jenkem and using bands (5+ / 0-)

        As indicators of sexual favors. (Do I really need a snark tag for this?)

        I simply treat any such new story, including this "knockout game" thing as more stupidity from the media.

      •  How many does it take before it becomes a trend? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG

        http://www.usatoday.com/...

        "In New Haven, police spokesman David Hartman said police are investigating six incidents in the past month as part of the knockout trend. "

        http://www.cnn.com/...

        "In New York, police noted seven "knockout" incidents this fall alone. Some of the incidents were allegedly directed specifically at Jewish people and thus classified as hate crimes, said police spokesman Sgt. Brendan Ryan."

        "New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly on Wednesday deployed additional police officers to Crown Heights, a Brooklyn neighborhood where eight "knockout" attacks have occurred, including an assault on a 78-year-old woman"

        This article from St Louis explains the origin of the scourge:
        http://www.stltoday.com/...

        "He said he got the idea after being bored hitting the bags and sparring at Cherokee. When the gym closed, he and other teens hit the streets. They created a game. The objective was to knock out a stranger with a single punch, get them off their feet. Stealing a wallet or cellphone was not the point. "Do the lick," in Eisele's words, and get on with it.

        They called it TKO. There were four main members: the Knockout King was the TKO CEO. He had a co-CEO, a president and an MVP. They hung out in Gravois Park. They flaunted their TKO status on Facebook. They sought out other kids to join their nascent gang. They taught recruits to pick vulnerable, older adults. One rule was that a TKO member had to witness the assault"

        If this was groups of white tees randomly clubbing black people over the head for laughs would you be so cavalier with your 'what's the big deal' dismissal?

        •  How many people were shot in their homes? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, Lost and Found, Tonedevil

          If we are taking this issues seriously, we definitely need to take domestic shootings seriously.

          btw, is icemilkcoffee any relation to coffeetalk? just curious.

          •  You are using the background noise of large number (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Be Skeptical

            of murders, to try to hide this trend. Nobody is claiming that the 'knock out game' is catching up to Candy Crush. Nor should we have to wait until then to finally decide to condemn it. Even if it only happens a dozen times- that's already a 11 times too many.

            The troubling thing about this phenom, is not the act itself. But the callousness and cruelty that allows young men to punch or murder strangers for no reason just so they could upload a video on World Star Hip Hop.  This year it manifests itself as the 'knock out game'. Last year it was the violent flash mobs. What will it be next year? Setting people on fire? We need to condemn the cruelty and the lack of empathy in no uncertain terms.

            •  Murders are background noise now? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil, Lost and Found, Yoshimi

              Talk about minimizing the bad stuff. No one here has said the things these kids did was remotely acceptable. You're the one crowing about how it's a horrible new trend, just like the right wing sites that started the panic about it.

              And who was it that isn't condemning attacking random people? Should we just not talk about race because a white person was hurt or killed by a black person? I have a feeling we won't ever talk about race if that's the case.

              •  OK- let's condemn it without dragging in (0+ / 0-)

                white racists as a deflection. White racists didn't cause this problem.

                We are talking about race now. Specifically black youths who think it is a hoot to knock people down on the hard pavement. Let's talk about that without dragging in the white racist deflection shield. This has nothing to do with white racism at all.

                •  We're talking about race (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil, Lost and Found, Yoshimi

                  because the conversation was started by racists. This isn't about race except to the extent that it's about racism. You're buying the bullshit racist line that this is a game that "black youth" play, even though there's like 5 incidents. There's no deflection about white racists here, they're doing their best to stir up racism, and they're doing ti by blaming people of one race for this. They, and you, are intent on making this a black problem when it just isn't.

                  •  If kids weren't KO'ing people... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Be Skeptical

                    the racists would have nothing to talk about(ok yes, they'd probably find something else).  I blame the kids throwing punches for starting the conversation.

                    •  They didn't start the conversation (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil, Lost and Found, Yoshimi

                      They just did some asshole violence and happened to be black. Blaming them for starting a racist conversation is nonsense. What they did was violence, not race, which means that they couldn't have started a conversation about race.

                      Either way, this isn't a trend and it's the racist right that is pretending that it is. Where is the moral panic about white people being serial killers? That should be happening if the violence was what started this conversation. It isn't though, because this is about racism, not violence.

          •  Not related to coffeetalk in any way (4+ / 0-)

            I am contrarian sometimes just like coffetalk, but at heart I am a pragmatic/ realistic leftist and collectivist.

    •  Absolutely wrong. It's not just black youth (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, Yoshimi, Lost and Found

      http://www.patheos.com/...

      The idea that this is restricted to black youth is absolutely wrong. 100% wrong. You've bought into the bullshit from the right wing media, congratulation. This is completely a story about white racism and this bullshit deflection that you are attempting doesn't change that.

      The fact that no one in the comments even questioned the validity of this story and instead has simply bemoaned the existence of the "game" and taken a chance to lecture a black man for speaking about racism instead of policing his community. And then you blame him for the racist assumptions he points out.

      •  So you found one instance of a white youth being (0+ / 0-)

        involved in a black knock-out gang.  First- you have to admit that this is a real problem- even the white youth's mother admitted that her son was in this knock-out gang. These things actually exist- It is not white racists imagining things. Secondly, you are doing nothing to disprove the observation thus far that this is a trend largely within the black community.
        By the way- how exactly are you questioning the validity of the recent knock-out of the jewish man in NY, which was caught on video?

        •  There was more than one white person involved (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          in that gang.

          By the way- how exactly are you questioning the validity of the recent knock-out of the jewish man in NY, which was caught on video?
          I'm not questioning that it happened. I saying that saying this is a trend, or something that the black community needs to lecture about more is bullshit. You're spreading right wing bullshit memes. You can pretend like lecturing black people on how they need to worry about violence isn't racism, but it's the same shit that's been happening for years. I don't see you out there lecturing the Jewish community on how they really need to take care of their financial fraud problem after Madoff was running that Ponzi scheme. If only they'd talk to their kids about it! They really need to clean up their community! /snark, in case it wasn't clear.
          •  How many cases do you need to see before (0+ / 0-)

            you call it a trend? If white kids are running around kniving black people in the back just for laughs, are you going to dismiss it by saying "well, it's just 10 stabbing incidences. Thousands of people cut themselves in the kitchen every year. What's the big deal?"

            I don't go around lecturing jews about Madoff, etc, for a very straightforward reason. What Madoff did, was an understandable crime. A crime motivated by greed. His victims similarly victimized themselves through their own greed. All understandable.  A black youth stealing a loaf of bread and a box of diapers. That's understandable. I am not going to condemn that.  A black youth knocking out a 72 year old man and killing him, for fun and laughs - that is not understandable at all. That is a heinous, horrendous crime. I am not ging to make excuses for them and point fingers at racists. I am going to condemn these black youths and I am definitely going to condemn this trend, even if it hasn't become popular enough to be an X Game sport yet.

            •  If there were only ten incidences of white (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              people stabbing black people then I count myself lucky. Instead we have a great number of black people killed by white people every year. And as so fail to acknowledge, this is not a growing trend. It has been a "trend" for years now, except that it's a few isolated cases across a country of 300 million people. 10 out of 300 million is nothing. It's certainly not anything like a trend.

              I am not ging to make excuses for them and point fingers at racists.
              And who was it that made excuses for them? You're making things up.
              I am going to condemn these black youths and I am definitely going to condemn this trend, even if it hasn't become popular enough to be an X Game sport yet.
              And you're going to condemn black people for not condemning this enough to your liking, even when they actually do condemn it. Quit pretending like anyone is excusing this, no one is. The point is that it's a bullshit racist panic based on the exact same bullshit racist tropes that have been around for centuries.
              •  And we DO protest those injustices (0+ / 0-)

                when Trayvon Martin was murdered, everyone on the left condemned the killer. Nobody  dragged out the typical excuse about why it was OK to profile Trayvon Martin because black youths commit more crime etc, etc. It was a vigilante murder plain and simple. When Renisha McBride was killed with a shotgun blast to the face, everyone was suitably appalled, and suitably outraged that the killer was allowed to chilll out for weeks before he was even arrested and charged. Nobody made this to be a story about black women driving drunk. It was a case of a gun nut acting out his Rambo-Nimrod fantasies. Likewise Jonathan Ferell. No excuses. Just condemnation of the trigger happy racist police. Andy Lopez, etc, etc.

                Same thing here. If you are going to condemn a heinous crime. Condemn it. Don't make excuses in between condemning it.

                •  Plenty of people defended Zimmerman (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil

                  even here. Well, too many defended Zimmerman here. Which is beside the point. When racist do racist things they need to be called out for it.

                  And again, quote one person making an excuse for the people who are committing these crimes. Show me one. You can't, because no one is doing that. You're making it up completely. Pointing out racists trying to rile up racism isn't defending anything, it's pointing out racism. You can pretend otherwise all you want but it won't make it true.

                  •  This whole diary was exactly an exercise in (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Be Skeptical

                    deflecting attention from knock-out assaults and try to turn it into something the right wing drummed up.

                    •  So then you think that the wingers (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil

                      who are spouting this racist bullshit should just go unchallenged? I mean, a few black people did something wrong so we should just not say anything about the racism. Because it's totally these five incidences of violence that has caused racism.

                    •  And I'll ask you again (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil

                      Show my where anyone made even one excuse for the crime that we're talking about. Just one.

                      Same thing here. If you are going to condemn a heinous crime. Condemn it. Don't make excuses in between condemning it.
                      Stop making this claim unless you can back it up.
  •  Just think (0+ / 0-)

    If you have a concealed handgun, after they knock you out with one punch they've got your wallet and your gun.

    If the pilot's good, see, I mean if he's reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so low... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big plane like a '52... varrrooom! Its jet exhaust... frying chickens in the barnyard!

    by Major Kong on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:04:48 AM PST

    •  Not really- what distinguishes these cases (3+ / 0-)

      from more typical assaults is that nothing is taken from the victim. It's all about knocking someone unconscious with a single punch to prove that you're a badass.

    •  I grew up in San Fe ese....I watch my six and keep (0+ / 0-)

      aware of my surroundings at all times.....survival instinct learned young.........

      Odds are highly against someone getting within punching range period let alone avoiding getting shot as they swing....

      Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
      I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
      Emiliano Zapata

      by buddabelly on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:55:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I guess you don't spend much time in crowded (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Yoshimi, buddabelly

        places, then.

        To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

        by UntimelyRippd on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:04:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's why I live in Tucson, I hate crowded (0+ / 0-)

          places with a passion after growing up in L.A.  

          Better yet I live 25-30 miles southwest of Tucson proper so even fewer people...lots of critters though, I like critters...esp my herd of Gila Monsters that feed on my chicken eggs all summer....I had 5 hunting the coops at once.....

          This isn't like the east coast, people tend to respect your personal distance and it is larger here than in a crowded city....

          Like I said, odds are highly against someone getting in reach let alone actually connecting with a punch.....old habits learned early die hard.....

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 12:19:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  You wouldn't last a second to a kidney punch. (0+ / 0-)

        You'd probably fall to the ground and you'd shoot yourself in the process.

        •  hard to punch after they get an oak root cane in (0+ / 0-)

          the gut..... hard.....then a baseball swing same cane....

          Probably never even need to pull my CCW except maybe to hold the person for the cops......

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 01:31:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ha! Keep believing that if it helps you sleep at (0+ / 0-)

            night.

            •  you might not pay enough attention to your (0+ / 0-)

              surroundings to prevent attack....I do....

              All it takes is situational awareness because no crook wants a hard target unless challenged....be aware and they will pass you by...same as it always was same as it always will be.....

              has nothing to do with race creed color or religion, crooks just don't like hard targets...

              Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
              I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
              Emiliano Zapata

              by buddabelly on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 03:49:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Black kids targeting white people... (7+ / 0-)

    with senseless violence for fun and we're supposed to blame white racists for overreacting?

    Good luck with that one...

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:30:42 AM PST

    •  How often has it happened? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, Eyesbright, AoT

      This smells of shark week to me.

    •  Just imagine.... (3+ / 0-)

      the Outrage Overload this site would go into if young Tea Partiers were knocking out old Black men.

      •  You make the point perfectly (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil

        - that there is no there there.

      •  Or a Hispanic man kills a black teen... (0+ / 0-)

        who punched him in the nose. Imagine the outrage if that happened.

        If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

        by HairyTrueMan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:43:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And which of the perpetrators of these attacks (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gramofsam1, Tonedevil

          got caught by the police and then let go scot free? None. You completely miss the point of the outrage about the killing of Trayvon Martin.

          •  I don't miss the point. (0+ / 0-)

            I simply don't agree with you. It seemed more than likely that Martin threw the first punch, and that it was probably not expected by Zimmerman. Perhaps Trayvon was trying to knock him the fuck out... going polar bear hunting on that cracka. Who knows... It didn't work out too well for the 17-year-old. It should probably serve as a lesson to other kids. Be careful who you fuck with, because you never know what kind of sick fuck you might encounter. It's better to keep your hands to yourself and leave strangers alone.

            If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

            by HairyTrueMan on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 12:07:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So now you're defending the killing of Martin (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              And assuming that he threw the first punch.

              But you're totally not racist. But those savage black kids need a lesson.

              Again, you did miss the point. Every single person that engaged in this game an got caught got punished. You're making a false equivalency. You have absolutely no clue what the point is, you just want to blame black people for racism.

              •  Florida tried to punish Zimmerman. (0+ / 0-)

                But the jury felt the killing was justifiable. They must have thought that Trayvon was the aggressor. And based on the evidence we know, it was likely.

                BTW, have you noticed how you tell other people what THEY think in every post? Perhaps you should stick to what YOU think and let other people speak for themselves. I'm not lecturing you; It's just a suggestion.

                If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                by HairyTrueMan on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 01:23:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It took them months to even arrest him (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil

                  No, I don't tell people what they think, I tell them what they do. I assume that what they do is influenced by what they think, because it seems to me that to do otherwise would be calling them idiots or liars. So if someone goes around blaming black people for racism constantly I naturally assume they want to blame black people for racism. Maybe the way I state it is off putting, but I've never found a way to tell someone that what they're saying or doing is racist when they are invested in believing they aren't being racist. So instead I just tell them how I see them acting. And you're defending racists and pretending like ti's black people's fault that they are racist. So I assume you want tot do those things. You might not like the words I use to describe what you're doing, but that doesn't change what you're doing.

                  •  They arrested Zimmerman immediately. (0+ / 0-)

                    But they didn't charge him with a crime because they didn't feel they had sufficient evidence to convict. Turns out, they were right. The State of Florida ended up spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on an unwinnable case to appease an angry mob.

                    (Notice once again how I'm stating facts and giving MY opinions. I'm not calling you names or telling you what YOU think.)

                    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                    by HairyTrueMan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 06:02:15 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, they didn't (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil

                      They detained him but did not arrest him. There's a huge difference. They didn't arrest him until there was outrage about him getting away with murder.

                      All of which avoids the point, you compared the Trayvon case, where people were angry because Zimmerman didn't get arrested or charged, and this supposed trend where everyone got arrested. You were pretending like no one is denouncing this even though the diarist did. And you managed to pretend like it's black peoples' fault that racism is a problem.

                      •  The word "you" is rampant in your comments. (0+ / 0-)

                        And I'm not just talking about the ones in this diary. It's all straw man and no substance. Check it out... it's shocking how often "you" use that word.

                        P.S.

                        ar·rest[ ə rést ]
                        take somebody into custody: to seize and take somebody into legal custody
                        stop something: to stop or slow something
                        take hold of something: to suddenly capture and hold something, especially somebody's attention

                        If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                        by HairyTrueMan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 07:59:36 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Arresting someone is very different than detaining (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Tonedevil

                          them. They are legal terms. If you can show me an arrest report from the day Trayvon was killed I'll correct what I said. You've moved the goal posts.

                          And yes, I used the word you a lot, because I'm pointing out the things you are saying. I don't know why this is such a problem. I suppose using 'they' is way, way better. I feel so damn chastised!

                          But that was a wonderful way of avoiding the subject yet again. So maybe you(OH GOD!!!!!) could address the actual point. Everyone has done exactly what you complained they didn't do, we just also talked about racism. So if you complain I'm assuming it's the talking about racism that you actually have a problem with.

                          •  Was Zimmerman not arrested immediately? (0+ / 0-)

                            Wasn't he taken into custody, seized into legal custody? Didn't they slap the hand cuffs on his wrists and drive him to the police station for an interrogation? Was he free to leave?

                            Of course not... he WAS arrested. He just wasn't charged with a crime until the political decision was made to (over)charge him with second degree murder. The police didn't feel there was enough evidence to convict. They were right.

                            It's not that complicated and really has nothing to do with the race of the accused or the victim.

                            But if you'd like to discuss the racial aspects of this case, we can talk about the diversion program implemented by former Chief Hurley of the Miami-Dade School Police to lower crime rate numbers for black students. Or we can discuss the the Federal hate crimes case that is going nowhere due to lack of ANY evidence. But I'm not going to respond to your factless accusations against me. Because I think you're just pounding the table since the facts and law are not on your side.

                            Happy Thanksgiving!

                            If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                            by HairyTrueMan on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 09:59:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If he was arrested there would be an arrest report (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tonedevil

                            He was not arrested. You are conflating two different things. He was detained. When you are detained you also aren't allowed to leave. You obviously don't understand the law.

    •  And people here assuming it's all true (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil

      even though it conforms to every damn stereotype, how predictable.

      This is bullshit pushed by the right wing pure and simple.

      •  There's video. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Be Skeptical

        So no need to assume. The scope of it is in question, but it does happen.

        If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

        by HairyTrueMan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 07:41:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The scope is the whole point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gramofsam1, Tonedevil

          The center of all of this nonsense is that this is a new and rising trend. There have been a few of these attacks that have happened and suddenly everyone is lecturing black people about how they really, really need to denounce this after they already have denounced it. The scope is the entirety of the question at this point.

          Yes, some young black assholes knocked out and attacked a few people and called it a game, no one disputed or defended that. No, it isn't a trend, and it wasn't 20 years ago when it was first reported. And no, no one needs to lecture black people on violence in their community yet again.

          •  You're right- the idea that (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            black people have not been denouncing this, along with other violence in their community, is bullshit.

            The problem is that a lot of white people never hear about the efforts within the community to push back against violence.
            That's how this becomes a no-win situation for black people- keep it in the community and the rest of the world never hears  about it. Move it out of the community and onto the public stage, and it just gives more ammunition and "evidence" to people who want to believe in black criminality.

            It's a sucky and unfair situation, but I do think that statements like Al Sharpton's recent piece on huffpo help more than they harm. Nutter's press conference was pretty good too- denounce the activity but make it clear that it's "a handful" of local incidents.

            •  Nutter was horrible in my opinion (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil

              The fucking obsession with pants that people have kills me. I think it's part of the masculinity problem that we have here in the US. And I do think these asshole attacks need to be denounced. And really, there is this pervasive trope that black people just need to behave and there won't be racism anymore, but that's bullshit. That's the main issue I have here.

              •  I didn't hear anything about pants (0+ / 0-)

                last night- it was just a clip on local news, topic was the recent incidents, no baggy pants stuff.

                •  Here's the speech I'm thinking of (0+ / 0-)

                  http://www.americanrhetoric.com/...

                  It's somewhat long so I ca see why they wouldn't show the whole thing. Here's the part that I can't stand.

                  And another thing. Take those doggone hoodies down, especially in the summer. Pull your pants up and buy a belt, because no one wants to see your underwear or the crack of your butt. Nobody. Buy a belt. Buy a belt. Nobody wants to see your underwear. Comb your hair -- and get some grooming skills. Comb your hair. Running round here with your hair all over the place. Learn some manners. Keep your butt in school. Graduate from high school. Go on to college so you can go and make something of yourself and be a good citizen here in this city.

                  And why don’t you work on extending your English vocabulary. Extend your English vocabulary beyond the few curse words that you know, some other grunts and grumbles and other things that none of us can understand what you’re saying.

                  And if you go to look for a job, don’t go blame it on the white folks, or anybody else. If you walk in somebody’s office with your hair uncombed and a pick in the back and your shoes untied and your pants half down, tattoos up and down your arm, on your face, on your neck, and you wonder why somebody won’t hire you. They don’t hire you because you look like you’re crazy. That’s why they’re not hiring you.

                  So, you do those things, and act like you got some sense, and you’d be surprised what opportunities will open up to you.

                  I see that part and all I can do is sigh and think, "again with the pants."
                  •  Yeah I heard about that- (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    and some of it is ridiculous, some of it is downright offensive. He does have a point about job interviews though, and staying in school etc.

                    The reaction from black folks I know (I'm white so I'm no expert) was mixed. Some people were pissed, some thought he was being deliberately shocking to get the attention of kids who might otherwise tune out any advice from an old guy.

                    All I can say is that "get a haircut" stuff didn't work very well on kids in the sixties- at least not until it was time for job interviews. And at that point, reality kinda tells you what to do, no need for advice from the mayor.

                    •  For me the pants are the annoying thing (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gramofsam1, Tonedevil

                      And the fact that the speech is clearly not going to actually reach the people it's supposedly aimed at. It's actually aimed at the people who are not doing the things he's talking about and hate the things he's talking about. To some extent denouncing the sort of violence that we're talking about is the same thing. Is anyone really going to see Sharpton or Nutter saying this stuff and not go out and randomly assault people? I highly doubt it. A lack of denouncing has nothing to do with this violence happening.

                      But seriously, there is an obsession with pants in our society when it comes to young men. On the one side all kinds of people making fun of hipsters for tight pants and on the other hand people chiding black youth for wearing baggy pants.

                      •  The pants thing- (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AoT, Tonedevil

                        yeah it's silly but it just seems like a new version of the same old same old to me. I remember when bell bottoms were the mark of a DFH, and my older siblings had a thing where a buckle in the back of your pants meant something very significant which I cannot remember.

                        Girls are not immune though- my otherwise very sensible daughter was just asking me if she should stop letting her girls (10 and 6 yrs old) wear skinny jeans because of the whole too much emphasis on body image thing. And really all they get is compliments, they both have long slender legs and look great in them. I told her to go back to being the mom who knows what to worry about and what to ignore, and she did.

  •  It seems the diary is trying to downplay this (8+ / 0-)

    as some kind of by-product of white racism.  And that is not helpful.

    Certainly, white racism still exists.  And certainly, this is a horrific thing being done by African-American youths as some kind of pathological "game," which has resulted in deaths. The two are not mutually exclusive.  And in this instance, the only link I see between the two is that the inexcusable conduct of these young men gives white racists some ammunition that they should not have.  But they have that ammunition due to the inexcusable conduct of these young men.  

    I think what also gives the right wing some ammunition here is that for a time, apparently the only outlets reporting on this were conservative outlets.  

    It would deprive white racists, and right wingers, of much of their ammunition if leaders of the African American community, and leading progressives, who do not hesitate to openly and publicly weigh in when whites perpetrate inexcusable conduct against African Americans, would openly and publicly call out this conduct for what it is -- reprehensible, inexcusable, and criminal.  

    •  I'm downplaying it as something that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil

      seldomly happens. What is odd is that there are a whole lot of white people afraid of this act that rarely happens.

      •  "Rarely" -- I guess it's how you define it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mr Robert

        To me, If person A does a horrible crime, and person B decides to copy person A, and person C decides to copy that, it's a trend.

        Reportedly, in Brooklyn there have been at least eight such crimes in the last couple of weeks, with some targeting of Jewish people.

        •  I want stats! (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jdsnebraska, Tonedevil, AoT

          I don't want national news jumping on this local crime story as if it was the lone shark attack of the summer.

          The media LOVE this type of story because it gets all the old white paranoid folks watching their shows and buying their advertised crap.

          •  you'll have them in 2 years or so...until then it (0+ / 0-)

            is all guesswork but it is growing a bit by the numbers...will it become a major problem?  probably not except for the unfortunate few attacked.....Is it worth talking about and upping your situational awareness in all instances...yes imo  If for no other reason but to prevent retaliatory attacks that could turn into racialized skirmishes all over this country....

            Honestly crooks of all types and races want easy prey,....they are predators not workers...otherwise the would have a job that doesn't include the commission of felonies......

            Stand up straight as possible, scan surroundings constantly and walk with confidence...do not lock eyes with a thug, simply acknowledge them with a head nod and go on...just like in a wolf pack, direct stare is a challenge.....double up when possible, 2 peeps are better that one and less likely to be attacked for anything.....

            Too many people are just sitting ducks with their face buried in a notebook or phone, their earbuds in and totally oblivious to their surroundings..... peeps I grew up with (Devils Henchmen, Mongols, Huns, H.A..)  called that type of person, prey.........

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 01:42:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  One little problem with your statement (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Tonedevil

      You apparently don't follow African American media because I've been hearing and reading folks discuss it there for a while now. And African American community leaders have spoken out against it publicly. But as usual, most white people never hear black folks when they are talking unless they show up on "white" news channels like MSNBC or on blogs followed largely by white people, like DailyKos. Or, apparently, right wing conservative sites.

      And quite frankly, I've known for a while that you don't understand how institutionalized racism actually affects the lives of people of color. That you do not see the connection of institutionalized racism and why young men of color are acting this way is, thus, not surprising at all.

      Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

      by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:33:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It reminds me of all the hand wringing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil

        about how moderate Muslims need to denounce terrorism.

        •  So very true (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, Tonedevil

          And I don't think it's a coincidence that my white friends who all posted in outrage about this last night in my Facebook feed are the exact same friends who are constantly posting about how "Muslims treat women." So many white Americans are such concern trolls.

          Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

          by moviemeister76 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:52:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's the WAY they speak out against it (0+ / 0-)

        Just like the diarist here- by making a few off hand comments about 'foolishness' (rather insulting to the 5? people who have been killed thus far), while reserving most of the space to pick a fight with white racists. Seems like the wrath is directed solely at the messenger for making too big a deal over something that is presumebly not a big deal.

      •  Honestly, does it matter why groups of kids (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MertvayaRuka, Darmok

        are attacking random people just for shits and grins?

        Because I honestly couldn't care less why they are doing it, it simply needs to stop.

        I don't blame the black community for not standing up against this because I know they have...

        I do agree to a point with one commenter here who feels that CDV basically blows off any responsibility on the kids part and lays it at the feet of white racists or even more ridiculous,  "The White Gaze" whatever the fuck that is though the diarist appears fixated on it...something that about 95% of white people have never heard of yet supposedly controls all their actions......

        Predators are predators, prey are prey and all that can be done is to teach the prey to pay fucking attention to their surroundings and lock up the predators who refuse to comply with societies standards on violence and its use......

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:30:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Amen! You cut off white racists by (0+ / 0-)

      acknowledging and denouncing these heinous acts.  Not by turning a blind eye, or making excuses for them.  If you do the latter, you are giving ammo to white racists and enabling their propaganda.

      There is a large number of americans who are not racist and not inclinded to believe in the racist nonsense peddled by World Nut daily.  This is the audience we need to win over. We can't do that by making excuses for horrendous crimes. Everyone is outraged by these crimes. If we don't condemn these acts without reservation, we risk losing all our credibility with the majority of americans.

      •  Has that ever worked? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, Urban Owl

        Can you tell me when black people behaving "correctly" has ever actually stopped racism? I bet you can't.

        And you win over that audience by pointing out how absurd this supposed "trend" is, not by pretending that it really is some horrible future game that's going to happen if we aren't sufficiently outraged.

  •  RW will play up the reverse racism angle... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, Yoshimi

    Sure, there was some racism involved. They're targeting people they assume to be easy victims. Muggers do the same thing. It's a form of profiling, basically. I don't think it's indicative of any deep-seated hatred for people of other races. I don't think they give a fuck. And I don't think it's productive to put too much focus or attention on people who don't give a fuck.

    This is a matter for local police to address. Trying to turn it into some national crisis for white people is forcing a narrative onto the whole thing...

  •  I've heard of the "knockout game" and it is not (0+ / 0-)

    something that I associated with being perpetrated only by blacks because gangs and thugs come in all colors.

    I don't buy the diarist's argument of turning this into an issue of white racism.

    •  Well, if you can *stand* it, I suggest you (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, Eyesbright, peptabysmal, AoT

      take a stroll over to World Net Daily -- though I hate to drive them any traffic.

      Suffice to say, you will find the diarist's take on the social response to this ugly new phenomenon to be well-supported by the evidence of the white racists' own words.

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:06:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  See also, "happy slapping" (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eyesbright, jdsnebraska, Yoshimi

      In the UK, you have (a probably equally over-hyped "trend") something called "happy slapping" where young, mostly white teenagers assault and publicly humiliate someone and record it and post it on youtube. I don't see anyone talking about how this proves whites are really too dangerous to be allowed in civilized society.

  •  Is it even a 'thing'? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, nspguy, Yoshimi

    There was a NYT article on this very issue a couple of days ago.

    The NYPD doesn't know if the so-called Knockout Game is a real phenomenon or if it's mostly a media narrative. Sadly, random attacks on strangers is not new. Is there a demonstrable increase in such incidents? Or is it a racial hysteria being attached to otherwise 'normal' levels of street violence?  

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

    by Joe Bob on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:11:08 AM PST

  •  The... (5+ / 0-)

    rush in the comments to show this has nothing to do with white racism is pretty predictable. I've noticed that many who are upset about connecting white racism to this are trying to defend against the idea that these incidents are a reaction to white racism. If that is your argument I agree with you, the incidents of "The Knockout Game" are not a reaction to white racism.
    It's the idea that this is a new rapidly spreading threat to white people that makes perfect sense with the background that black youths are extremely violent that connects the reporting and reporting style about these incidents to white racism. There are a few incidents that have been highly reported and suddenly it's an epidemic. jck points out in this comment that this is an awful lot like the reporting on wilding. You may well remember the bands of marauding youths raping young, mostly white female joggers. When the accounts didn't start piling up as expected that term disappeared from the media this will too.

    This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

    by Tonedevil on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:56:50 AM PST

  •  I've noticed the trend too (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, Eyesbright

    especially in the arguments for concealed carry and stand your ground.

    I smell the same frenzied concern from the same culprits. The Limbaugh/Fox/Drudge media that made a mountain out of kids fighting on a school bus or a single Blank Panther outside a polling place in Philly. I just ask myself, what are the odds and is this all they've got?

  •  This is nothing more than the 21st century..... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil, Yoshimi, Eyesbright

    .....version of "cocaine crazed negroes" from 100 years ago.

  •  Is this crime even mostly being done by blacks? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    Or is it just the black folks who do it that are getting attention?

    OMG, like, gag them with a multi-colored spoon. Like, ya know.

    by Jyotai on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 12:13:41 PM PST

  •  This is almost all hype (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yoshimi, Tonedevil

    Before you get calls for white vigilantism or moral panics about roving gangs of young black teenagers terrorizing whites, look at the actual evidence. This has been a handful of hyped incidents, nothing more. There's not even a lot of evidence that the perpatrators were even calling it "the knockout game." Actually studying things like crime statistics show that whites tend to victimize whites, blacks tend to victimize blacks, etc.

  •  This "knockout game" thing (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yoshimi, jdsnebraska, Tonedevil

    seems to me to be a case of media hype with only a little bit of reality involved at most, as in the case of previous things such as teenage sex orgies called "rainbow parties", or widespread claims of Satanic ritual abuse in the 70s, or attempts to link Dungeons and Dragons with Satanism.

    "Moral panic" is a great term because nobody is asking just how prevalent these so-called "knockout games" are or whether it's just a couple isolated instances coupled with grouping things like muggings into this so-called phenomenon.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 12:34:51 PM PST

  •  First off (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    White on black crime is far greater issue than black on white in this country. The main stream media controlled by the right, is only addressing the black on white crimes the white on black has to be in excess but never reported.  Yes there have been a few times when it was black on white, but why isn't the media talking about the reverse, because if doesn't sell papers .  While I do know of one case, of black on white, ( my mothers boss was hit in NYC last week) the issue needs to be addressed in whole  whites are just as guilty, but you would never know it.  

    •  Data? (0+ / 0-)

      More than twice as many whites are murdered by blacks than the reverse.  

      If one takes into account their relative population sizes, the black murder rate of whites is at least ten times higher than the reverse.  Note that there is no separate Hispanic category, and that they are mostly counted among whites.

      FBI Crime Reports 2011

      Similar trends hold when looking at other violent crimes.

      It's good to have the actual data when making such claims.

      •  Do you know if those are based on convictions? (0+ / 0-)

        Or are those just reports? It doesn't seem to say in there.

        •  No, they are not. (0+ / 0-)

          Further:

          This table is based on incidents where some information about the offender is known by law enforcement; therefore, when the offender age, sex, and race are all reported as unknown, these data are excluded from the table.
          •  So the numbers say that more than twice as many (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tonedevil

            whites are killed by accused blacks. There are a lot of assumptions that go into this. Extrapolating these numbers to say that blacks actually kill twice as many whites is not statistically sound at all. There are serious problems with that interpretation. According to these same sort of statistics blacks are far, far more likely to use drugs, even though that isn't true in reality. I have yet to see a valid source of statistics in regards to violent crime and race. The FBI is not one.

            •  I would have guessed that the conviction rates (0+ / 0-)

              would be considered more unreliable to you, and I would agree.  I think you have it backwards.

              But even if you add in all the "unknowns" and count them as white, that still wouldn't account for the difference.  

              The FBI stats are compiled from state and local stats.  I would think the murder stats would be the least likely to be incomplete or inaccurate.

              In NYC in 2011, 54% of murder suspects were black, 35% were Latino, 9% were white, and 3% Asian/Pacific Islanders.  Note that these data break out Hispanic ethnicity from race, unlike the FBI data. Compare to NYC population, which is 25% non-Hispanic black, 29% Hispanic, 35% non-Hispanic white 13% Asian. The New York arrest proportions by race/ethnicity is quite similar to the suspect breakdown.  It does not provide any breakdown on race of victim by race of suspect.

              Crime and Enforcement Activity   in New York City, 2012

              In the first 6 months of 2013, 74% of shooting suspects were black in NYC.

              NYPD stats: 70% of shooting suspects in first half of 2013 were black

              However, I find this to be a rational perspective:
              The Good News About Race And Crime In America

              But if you say that every source of data is worthtless, well...

              •  I think the conviction rates would be unreliable (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil, Be Skeptical

                as well. And I didn't say any source would be unreliable, just that I didn't know of any reliable sources. I really, really don't trust the NYPD. I trust the FBI more, although those stats aren't really from the FBI, they're from various local agencies, so some are probably better than others but in aggregate they aren't that great. Thanks for the links, there looks to be some good info in there.

  •  Let me applaud Rev. Sharpton (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gramofsam1, VClib

    for speaking out against the young men doing this.  

    See Here.  

    For a longer version, see here.  

    Kudos to Rev. Sharpton.  He has my respect.  

  •  I'm late to the party on this thread, but... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Be Skeptical, HairyTrueMan

    I'm sorry to tell you that the knockout game is a real thing.  The media is just now discovering it, I presume because it finally reached New York, but It has been a real phenomenon here is St. Louis for about a decade now.  I myself was targeted jogging about a half block from my house.  Yes, the attackers have all been black teenagers and the victims have all been white or asian.  These are uncomfortable facts for many of us.  They certainly are for me: white, middle aged liberal with a black wife, proudly living in the most culturally and ethnically diverse neighborhood in St. Louis.  My wife, a former high school teacher here in the city, can attest to the pervasiveness of this in the culture of the students in St. Louis city Public schools.  Attempting to explain away this sort of phenomenon as a media creation or as some sort of response to white racism is the sort of thing that makes moderates tune us out and conclude that we can't be seriously entrusted to govern in a manner that is consistent with their values.  

    •  incidentally... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Be Skeptical

      most of the victims are middle aged or older and out alone.  Only exceptions among victims are elderly couples.  Most of the attackers are part of large groups:  one of the attackers sucker-punches the victim while the rest of the group egg him on, then the rest of the group rushes in to beat the victim once he is down.  Truly cowardly.

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