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For years, the stay-at-home mom brigade and radical religious groups have kept their children from being vaccinated due to the fear that it would make their children autistic.

What’s been the result of this line of thinking? An increase of fatal diseases.

According to The Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, the measles have gone up three times the normal rate. To give an average comparison, that’s 175 cases to its usual 60 cases per year. All of these cases were due to unvaccinated people who traveled overseas and returned with the disease.

Who are these people and what are their backgrounds? Some of them have come from a Jewish community in New York, others from a mega church in Texas, and more from a Hare Krishna group in North Carolina. All of them were linked to outbreaks due to their beliefs of anti-vaccination.

Overseas, the problem is more severe.

In Syria, The World Health Organization has declared a polio emergency. Syrian politicians claimed that they’d love to stop a polio outbreak, but they are just too busy fighting a religious war within their country’s borders. The problem with that excuse is that polio doesn't care about borders as it is now spreading across Turkey.

Other than radical religious groups and willfully ignorant stay-at-home moms, who's to blame?

Although anti-vaccine movements have existed for centuries, it’s celebrities like Jenny McCarthy, quack doctors like Andrew Wakefield, and fringe reporters at Natural News who are to blame for the current mass deception that vaccines are bad for us. People look to them as if they're experts and follow their example in spite of being debunked by real doctors and scientists. Still, these people won’t allow facts to get in the way and because of it, we and our children will pay the price.

Outbreaks are real and when the disease isn't dealt with quickly, people die. So should vaccines be a choice? If kids are not vaccinated, should it be considered neglect? After all, they are being left vulnerable to these fatal diseases. Should we honestly leave the decision in the hands of unqualified parents and religious loons?

Sources:

Measles Still Threatens Health Security

Notes from the Field: Measles Outbreak Among Members of a Religious Community — Brooklyn, New York, March–June 2013

Anti-Vaccine Mega Church Linked to Texas Measles Outbreak

Notes from the Field: Measles Outbreak Associated with a Traveler Returning from India — North Carolina, April–May 2013

Autism and Vaccines

As Polio Spreads In Syria, Politics Thwarts Vaccination Efforts

Vaccine disinformation: Katie Couric on HPV and Jenny McCarthy on autism

Poll

Should vaccines be mandatory or a choice?

75%84 votes
21%24 votes
2%3 votes

| 111 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  This is a very tricky question. (8+ / 0-)

    The fact is that vaccines are all that stands between us and epidemics. Vaccines helped drop child mortality rates by an order of magnitude or more between the 1850s and 1950s.

    My thought is that maybe we can split the difference: that vaccines are a requirement for children to participate in public school, and any private school has the right to similarly make vaccination a precondition for enrollment. We allow, at least on the public school side, an exemption for religious objections, but anti-vax quax can go pound sand.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:14:50 AM PST

    •  For the Most Part (8+ / 0-)

      I agree with you.  The problem with your argument is these children will be in public places such as churches, malls, resteraunts, playing outside in the neighborhood and expose other children to deadly diseases.  This is a public Health Issue.

      •  Yes, it is. (4+ / 0-)

        But on the other hand, there are individual liberty issues mixed in as well. And people often have the right to make stupid choices.

        I'm very sympathetic to the public health concern, though, and that to me is very compelling. I just am more than a little reluctant to make it universally compulsory, even with medical and religious exemptions.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:26:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Remember (0+ / 0-)

          Liberty is granted, it is not all encompassing.

          •  I disagree. (6+ / 0-)

            Liberty is recognized or suppressed; it is not granted, but rather inherent.

            So the question remains, is it in fact a question of liberty to be free to not protect your children from childhood illnesses, and thereby make them potential carriers to other children, including those too young to be immunized or those with allergies to vaccines or compromised immune systems? Or is it a question of responsibility?

            That's a difficult question. And this is coming from me, whose attitude towards anti-vax quax as being something approaching snarling rage.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:36:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You don't have the liberty to harm others (7+ / 0-)

              If a person wants to risk a disease, that is his/her option (and in a sense we all do - every sweet, every smoked meat, every cigarette, every time we drink too much).

              You have no right to put your child at risk and certainly no right to put others at risk.

              Difference between getting plastered in your own living room and sleeping it off, and getting platered in public, then driving home blind drunk.

              •  But we do that every day. (4+ / 0-)

                Buy a Hershey bar? You're promoting child slave labor in Cote D'Ivorie.

                Non-fair trade coffee? Yeah.

                Fill your tank? Supporting some of the world's most oppressive regimes.

                DRIVE? You're polluting our air and risking your own life and those of people around you.

                So there's obviously some bounds for putting other people in harm's way that are, in fact, acceptable.

                This is not so easily defined as a black and white issue.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:02:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Those things are extremely indirect (3+ / 0-)

                  six degrees removed and largely incalculable.

                  The child next door dying of smallpox is a direct risk.

                  Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

                  by anastasia p on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:10:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So's the child next door (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Heavy Mettle, Another Grizzle

                    getting run over.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:11:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And the child getting run over is going to kill (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BlackSheep1

                      how many millions? WTF kind of apples and oranges idea is that?  It takes just one successful modification to create pandemic.

                      It is all very well and good to cry freedom when the risk is unfairly shared by all.

                      Fear is the Mind Killer...

                      by boophus on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:00:26 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pandemics (3+ / 0-)

                        on that level imply a disease that isn't immunizable, so your argument is therefore moot.

                        I'm sorry you and I don't agree on whether this issue is complex or not; I'm sorry you don't see the nuances I see; maybe neither of us is totally correct on this.

                        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                        by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:18:44 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Not if you were at the wheel when she died (0+ / 0-)

                      And if you and your children are carriers for polio, flu, or even measles, if your next door neighbor's kid dies, you and yours contributed to the death.

                      Part of the reasons these idiots anti-vaxers can make the claims they do is that they have never seen many of the diseases, or a real pandemic.  They can be as arrogant as they are because people who do get themselves and their children vaccinating are also protecting the idiot's anti-vaxers and their children, just as people who clear brush from around their flammable mountain houses protect their neighbors, and for the same reason:  they remove fuel from the fire.

                      Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

                      by mbayrob on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:55:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  And actually (4+ / 0-)

                    the child next door won't die of smallpox; that disease no longer exists outside of a lab.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:11:41 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I think only your pollution example applies (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  pistolSO, Tonedevil, BlackSheep1

                  And maybe not even tht one.  You probably have to be an epidemiologist to explain it but what we're really doing is having everyone cooperatively engage in a community science project to eradicate a disease.  It's not really a question of what individuals are harmed or protected, it's about how contagious disease transmits in a population and how the disease itself can be wiped out.  

                  I'd guess plenty of folks who run in the race for the cure for cancer who think they'd do anything to work for a cure, don't get that they are the cure when they become vaccinated for polio or whatever.  Each person who makes the disease impossible to transmit does his part to eradicate the disease.  

                •  excuse me, but ... well, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  historys mysteries

                  Choose not to drive or buy a Hershey bar to suit yourself.

                  Choose to endanger my children, grandchildren, and the elderly members of my family with your insistence on not getting vaccinations, and YOU are a THREAT to ME and MINE directly.

                  Do not expect sympathy.

                  LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:38:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So do you bear responsibility to make them safer? (0+ / 0-)

                    If you do not do the following
                    ---acknowledge my childs vaccine injury and help work with me to:
                    --make vaccine injuries rarer and less devastating,
                    --push medicine to discover which children do react badly to vaccines and why
                    --push medicine to quickly identify and treat vaccine injury

                    then you are ALSO endangering a subset of children, by subjecting them to vaccines injuries that can be prevented. If you are really "for" vaccinations, understand why some people will not use them due to their own family experiences, and help make them safer.

              •  tecolata - what total nonsense (3+ / 0-)

                I believe in vaccinations and all my children received them, but there is a fundamental individual right here that deserves recognition.

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:32:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Fundamental? (0+ / 0-)

                  What rights are fundamental? Do people ever disagree as to what rights are fundamental? How is that conflict resolved? Has any society in human history recognized all the same fundamental rights that you do?

                  The present moment is fundamental. Everything else, including everything you can say about it (even this) is fantasy. Useful fantasy, perhaps, but not fundamental.

                •  Do you have the right to keep flammables near your (0+ / 0-)

                  house in a high fire area?

                  I'd warrant you probably don't.  

                  The difference is minor.  Dry brush or unvaccinated children are just fuel to different kinds of fires.

                  Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

                  by mbayrob on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:56:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  What penalties should apply to those who don't (0+ / 0-)

              vaccinate?

              In my view, those who take the recommended vaccines should get a discount on health insurance, as they reduce the cost of healthcare for all.  

              People who do not vaccine, while not getting a discount would still benefit from the general lower healthcare cost and benefit personally, as their risk of infectious diseases would be lower.

              The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

              by nextstep on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:58:11 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, in what I proposed (0+ / 0-)

                the penalties of failure to vaccinate would be being forced to homeschool or go to school in schools that are specifically for unvaccinated kids.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:19:52 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  which is what a lot of bigots would just love (0+ / 0-)

                  and what the example of that DFW area megachurch proves faulty.

                  LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:41:30 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  How's quarantine? (0+ / 0-)

                  Before we had effective treatments for some of these aliments, local governments could and did put the contagious in camps and otherwise isolated from the rest of the population.

                  As resistant bacteria become more common, in some cases, vaccines are going to be the only effective preventive out there, as diseases that haven't killed in the better part of a century come roaring back.

                  People who can kill other people via infection should expect limited respect for their "rights" in a pandemic.  I suspect that the courts would give wide discretion to governments in such a situation.  And that what the courts would allow, the larger public would not.

                  People have forgotten what a horror infectious diseases are.  If polio returns, for example, you're going to see things get ugly.
                   

                  Quote of the week: "They call themselves bipartisan because they're able to buy members of both parties," (R. Eskow, Campaign for America's Future.)

                  by mbayrob on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:02:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Be Skeptical, Eyesbright

                    we're unlikely to see more than small breakouts due to the fact that vaccination is still covering 90% or more of children. That presents a high barrier to spreading of pandemics of preventable disease.

                    But yes, what you say highlights the absolute folly of anti-vax activism. If we all did what they advocate, childhood mortality would increase tenfold, at least.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:21:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  What if they didn't vaccinate . . (0+ / 0-)

                  Because their child had a provable bad reaction to a vaccine (something that is acknowledged on vaccine inserts)

                  Because in the 60s, some children were not vaccinated because they were fragile. The point of herd immunity was to protect them. Doctors were supported in figuring out which children this applied to, generally due to bad reactions.

                  Do you know what is in vaccines?

                  http://www.cdc.gov/...

            •  Liberty is granted by society (0+ / 0-)

              Without society, one has NO liberty. One either has, or lacks, POWER. Can you do it? If you have the power to, you can.

              Only in society is the concept of liberty even relevant. This is because "liberty" is contract made between the individual and the rest of society. In essence, the individual PURCHASES liberty from society. The payment is two-fold, and involves trading power for freedom. One, the individual gives up the power to infringe on the liberty of others. Two, the individual agrees to use their power to defend the liberty of the rest of society, as their liberty is in turn defended.

              Claiming that liberty is inherent is simply an argument designed to get others to agree to your definition of liberty, and uphold it. Because, plainly put, without society defending your liberties, they do not exist. All that exists is a powerless plea for liberty, "Please! Defend the liberty I wish I had!"

          •  Then why not mandate vaccinations for adults? (0+ / 0-)

            Why just children?

            •  we do demand them for overseas travel (3+ / 0-)

              and for certain professions. Join the military and get a broad-spectrum array of vaccinations (in some cases including smallpox despite its rarity, because of the potential for its use as a terror weapon).

              Booster shots for tetanus shouldn't be the only adult boosters.
              If you're 18 and starting college you're required to have a meningitis shot, for example.

              The CDC now recommends testing for all adults for Hep C. Whether or not you know you were ever exposed.

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:43:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Liberty is NOT granted (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Another Grizzle

            It is a fundamental individual right.

            It's never been stated better than "Give me liberty or give me death".

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:30:12 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  But... (0+ / 0-)

          If you and your children are vaccinated then you don't have to worry about catching the fatal disease. It should be mandatory to be vaccinated to go to public school... But other than that if you don't get vaccinated then you are the one paying the price.

          There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too. -Kurt Vonnegut

          by brentut5 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:40:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not really true (7+ / 0-)

            because (as mentioned below) you can be vaccinated but the vaccine didn't work for you. Plus, young children who aren't old enough to be vaccinated, family members of those who might be school age and who might be brought to school at pick up / drop off time, are still susceptible (pertussis is a big one in this category).

          •  What pat of butter said. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blue91, BlackSheep1, Eyesbright

            A lot more complicated than you put it. Unfortunately.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:42:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  no, brentut5. You're the one compromising (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radmul

            the immunity of the larger number by providing an open vector for the disease(s) against which you refuse vaccinations.

            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:44:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm always first in line for vaccines (0+ / 0-)

              Sorry I wasn't clear enough in my response. The folks that don't get the vaccines are carrying the most risk. And I hate  the idea of mandatory anything when it comes to someone making decisions about my body.

              Am I wrong in believing that breast milk is building the immune systems in young children during the first couple of months til they are able to be immunized?

              Thanks for helping me clarify.

              There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God Almighty Himself hates with you, too. -Kurt Vonnegut

              by brentut5 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:02:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  depends on the mom's immunity, on the nursing (0+ / 0-)

                issue. If she's got a good healthy immune system it should help protect the child. But children need protection whether they're nursing (it's not always possible to nurse, for example) or not.

                Immunizations should, IMNVHO, all be considered on the basis we're familiar with for tetanus shots: you need boosters at intervals to stay protected for several of the more common diseases. The reason it's National Influenza Vaccination Awareness Week is to help folks understand why, even if they got last year's flu shot, they need this year's (it's one of the faster-mutating sets of viral diseases).

                LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:36:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  It's hard to concede that argument (3+ / 0-)

          when reading bio after bio after 18th and 19th century figures who had 10 children and only one lived to adulthood. It was normal for every family to lose a couple of kids. Everyone remembers reading books like Little Women and All of a Kind Family, where one of the children dying of a communicable disease was a standard plot point. And for the anti-contraception "the Bible says" crew, in Jesus' time 60% died during childhood.

          Children's lives were cheap and disposable until 100 or so years ago. Do we really want to go back to that?

          Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

          by anastasia p on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:09:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  To an extent. (0+ / 0-)

        You can catch and die from any non-vaccinated disease and the carrier isn't liable.

        We don't require quarantine for most diseases, even ones that can be fatal.

    •  The religious exemption is too big a barn door (7+ / 0-)

      We're already seeing just how much mischief that kind of opt out can wreak in health care and other matters.

    •  Of course there needs to be a health exception (7+ / 0-)

      as well. Some people are allergic to components of certain vaccines.

      I also think that there should be an exception to requiring boosters if a titer shows that there is existing immunity.

    •  Disagree there should be no exception unless the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1

      unvaccinated can be kept from potentially infecting others

      Fear is the Mind Killer...

      by boophus on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:57:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  raptavio: no. The principle of herd immunity (0+ / 0-)

      doesn't recognize whether a family's kids are in public school or private school. That herd immunity is what protects the general population.

      Jenny McCarthy is famous because of what, exactly (other than her nonsense stand against protecting children and adults from dangerous communicable disease)? Oh. Right. She's a former Playboy poser.

      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:36:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I understand the principle of herd immunity. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Another Grizzle, Eyesbright

        Like I said elsewhere.. there are a lot of nuances here. From a straight public health perspective, mandatory vaccination for all without an allergic or immune system issue is a no-brainer.

        But there are other perspectives which I'm hesitant to dismiss lightly.

        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

        by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 12:16:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Public health is part of our nation's defense, (0+ / 0-)

          really.

          Would you advocate letting people choose not to wash their hands, working in food service or patient care????

          It really is that simple.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:23:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, it's really not. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eyesbright

            And that's a terrible analogy.

            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

            by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:32:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, it really isn't. The single most effective (0+ / 0-)

              thing you can do to stop the spread of diseases is proper handwashing -- and it's as potent against infections of "childbed fever" as against dysentery.
              http://www.waterandhealth.org/...

              Don't take my word for it: the CDC has more information on this.

              http://www.cdc.gov/...

              http://www.cdc.gov/...

              http://www.cdc.gov/...

              http://www.cdc.gov/...

              And the choice not to do so is just as dangerous.

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:48:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's a terrible analogy (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Eyesbright

                not because handwashing is a bad idea -- it is, and it should be absolutely mandatory for anyone employed in foodservice or fields where dirty hands are most likely to spread illness.

                It's a bad idea because people who don't want to comply with that rule have the option of not working in such a field. Children don't have the option of not being children.

                So it's a terrible analogy for the exact opposite reason you thought I meant.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:26:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  People who choose not to wash their hands (0+ / 0-)

                  like people who choose not to vaccinate, spread diseases.

                  it's a perfect parallel.

                  LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:45:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  OK then. (0+ / 0-)

                    You chose not to even address the distinction, but that's OK. I'll move on.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:48:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  No because hand washing would never do harm (0+ / 0-)

                    If hand washing was dangerous to me, I would have a parallel reason not to hand wash or vaccinate.  Or to choose to hand wash with different methods or alternative soaps--to demand that they create safer soaps would be seen as supportive of hand washing I would not be ATTACKED for it as Jenny MCCarthy is for asking for safer vaccines (she is NOT anti vaccine she is for safer vaccines).

                    Vaccination and vaccine ingredients are in fact harmful to a subset of the population. Read these ingredients and tell me that SOME of them might not be harmful to a subset of  children, esepcially newborns.

                    http://www.cdc.gov/...

                    By the way, part of what safe vaxxers are fighting for, is safer vax options with alternative ingredients. . .

                    •  If you have a soap allergy (0+ / 0-)

                      there are alternatives.

                      If you have an egg allergy, there are other vaccination formulations for many of the diseases reliant on egg-based sera.

                      McCarthy claims vaccines cause autism.
                      That's factually inaccurate, and has contributed to the anti-vax hysteria, and thereby to the provable increase in cases of preventable contagious diseases, including pertussis. Deaths have resulted.

                      She gets no sympathy from me.

                      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 03:49:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Jenny Mccarthy's son almost died after a vaccine (0+ / 0-)

        She could have shut up about it and quietly treated him.

        Or she could have stood up to pharma bullsh*t that all vaccines are safe for every child in order to help others treat THEIR child's injuries --oh yeah, she did.

        Which is more courageous?

  •  It's not just about YOU....it's about everyone (9+ / 0-)

    otherwise the disease wins...

  •  If they Have the Choice (5+ / 0-)

    I want the Choice for my child not to be exposed to these "Typhoid Marys".

    •  You do, of course, have the choice (0+ / 0-)

      to keep your child at home so as not to expose them to anyone else's infections diseases.  I believe everybody has that choice.

      Obviously that's a terrible choice, but it's the one that doesn't restrict anyone else's choices.

      •  Wow so the biggest bullies, the most willing to (3+ / 0-)

        kill, the most ignorant have the right to force everyone else to live in a locked room until a new more virulent disease rises in their breeding grounds to knock off stupid

        Fear is the Mind Killer...

        by boophus on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:04:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nnnnoooo ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... they don't have the right to force you to do anything.  You have the right to make intelligent choices based on the likely consequences of their stupid choices.

          The question before is is whether they should retain the right to make their stupid choices, given that those likely consequences may make the only intelligent choices pretty terrible.

          (Calling them "bullies" and "willing to kill" is a little ridiculous.  They're not willing to kill; they don't believe their actions will kill anyone.  They're stupid for believing that, but that doesn't make them premeditated murderers.)

  •  What about people who are ineligible.. (4+ / 0-)

    You make the assumption that the only people who will get sick will be the people who refuse to get vaccinated, but this isn't a good assumption.  Newborns will be vulnerable until they reach an age where they can be vaccinated, for example.

  •  I have problems with mandatory anything. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, Batya the Toon

    I'd much rather that we have real, verified education that convinces people to do the right thing. And a public health system that supplies them.
    Of course, there are always some who can't be reached and maybe we let them get sick.
    I would hope that the communities that avoided vaccines and then contracted the disease would learn from that mistake and evangelize their ignorant cousins to get vaccinated, but I ain't holding my breath on that.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:22:27 AM PST

  •  You need choice, otherwise it would (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Terrapin, BlackSheep1, Eyesbright

    get even more crazier. Keep vaccines affordable. Educate the public. And vaccinate yourself and family.

  •  There are always (13+ / 0-)

    going to be some exceptions, because there are always going to be some people who can't get vaccines for a variety of reasons (e.g., they are allergic to eggs, are immune compromised, etc). The way CA does it is that immunizations are required for schools, and we have to provide proof of immunization upon enrollment, but you can get an exemption by filling out a form. That seems like a reasonable way to do it to me; mandatory but with exceptions allowed. I don't really agree with allowing exceptions only for religious reasons because I'm not in favor of special treatment for the religious. I am extremely pro-vaccination though and am strongly in favor of everyone receiving them who does not have a true health reason not to.

    I'm not sure why you decided decided to point the finger at stay-at-home moms, by the way. (I'm a working mother, but am not thrilled with the media attempts to divide mothers who work from those who don't via "mommy wars" type of articles.)

  •  Might keep it a choice. (0+ / 0-)

    But bar unvaccinated people from any group situation.  For their own good.

  •  If the pool of unvaccinated indovidulas gets too (4+ / 0-)

    large (% varies per disease) there will be epidemics. And even if you are vaccinated against that disease, being exposed to a dozen sick people rather than the occaisional sick person just might overwhelm whatever amount of protection your immune syaytem generated in response to the vaccination. It's called public health because for it to work the way it's supposed to work, as much of the public as possible has to be vaccinated.

    Life is just a bowl of Cherries, that stain your hands and clothes and have pits that break your teeth.

    by OHdog on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:41:45 AM PST

  •  There was a whooping cough outbreak (6+ / 0-)

    in Colorado. LOTS of unvaccinated children here. I think that Boulder has a particularly high concentration?

    I had my doctor split the MMR. While it was hard having my kids get multiple shots instead of one, that was my decision. But not having them vaccinated was never an option. I did the research, read the crazy lady's site, and talked to the doctor, who has five kids. Also talked to my cousin, who is a pediatrician with a specialty in epidemiology. She vaccinated HER kids.

    I think smallpox has reappeared, too?

    If I were a school official, I would be very nervous having unvaccinated kids in my school. As a parent, I'm unhappy. I think it's selfish not to vaccinate.

    Please don't falme me. Too cranky already =)

    "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B. Anthony

    by BadKitties on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:42:26 AM PST

  •  Of course they should be mandatory (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    twigg

    if the government can force you to buy insurance why shouldnt' they be allowed to force you to be vaccinated? Then they should legislate every aspect of people's lives from serving in the military, to regulating our cars and transportation, whatwe eat, drink,  get around, what to sleep on, what drugs are over the counter vs prescription, whether someone needs an ultrasound before an abortion, whether someone can have an abortion, that companies must provide contractiprion, what showsto watch on what kinds of TV's, how much time spento on the internet, etc. AFter all, everything we do affects society

  •  Sadly, it should not be at issue. How about (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    twigg, Be Skeptical

    mandatory to enter public school?
    We had this requirement for whooping cough two years ago.

    http://www.gazettes.com/...
       

    Students entering grades 7 through 12 this fall will be required to show proof of the pertussis vaccine, known as the Tdap booster, no later than 30 days following the first day of school this year.
    Ideally everyone should vaccinate though.

    I ain't often right, but I've never been wrong. Seldom turns out the way it does in this song.

    by mungley on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:51:08 AM PST

  •  There are some things that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pistolSO

    can, do and should take a greater priority that the ill-informed opinions that are driving the current failure to vaccinate children.

    Vaccination to attend Public School is mandatory. No personal choice and no religious exceptions. This is not because it is only your child that will catch the disease, but that having un-vaccinated children in close proximity to others reduces "herd immunity". That immunity protects us all. It protects those who were not vaccinated, and those for whom the vaccination didn't work.

    You do not have the right to put my children at risk because you believed some quack on the internet. You do not have the right to put your own children at risk either, and I don't much care if you are a Buddhist, Baptist or a Jain.

    Even if it were true that a tiny percentage of children suffered a harmful effect from a vaccine ... so what? We can work to improve vaccines but parents do not get to put everyone at risk of killer diseases just because they think they know better.

    Effectively they are saying "I don't care about measles, mumps, rubella and whooping cough. I don't care about tuberculosis or polio. I heard that my kid might be hurt by the vaccine and even though the only evidence is in my head, I am not going to help protect you or your children. They can pound sand".

    I'm not sure who they blame if their kid dies from measles.

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    Who is twigg?

    by twigg on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:52:20 AM PST

  •  Vaccination has to be Mandatory. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boophus, Crazycab214

    No Religious Exemptions whatsoever.   It's a Public Health issue and courts have found in the past that quarantine laws are constitutional even though they do infringe on personal liberty.

    I have zero sympathy for the anti-vac movement, and having vaccination be mandatory is the only way to ensure that we aren't going to be overrun by a epidemic because some folks believe some fraudulent information about vaccines.

    I agree with President Obama, our country's journey is not yet complete. We must continue the work that our forebearers at Seneca Falls started, and put the Equal Rights Amendment into our Constitution.

    by pistolSO on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:00:00 AM PST

  •  How about a tax penalty... (0+ / 0-)

    for those who decide not to vaccinate their children? Then it's not mandatory; Problem solved!

    Seriously though... Get your kids vaccinated against whatever your doctor recommends.

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:02:29 AM PST

  •  There has been a project to determione what the (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pistolSO, gramofsam1, Eyesbright

    disease rate would be without vaccination against the childhood diseases. Project Tycho estimates 100,000,000 infections at least have been prevented.

    Life is just a bowl of Cherries, that stain your hands and clothes and have pits that break your teeth.

    by OHdog on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:04:26 AM PST

  •  Here's my thought. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boophus, Heavy Mettle

    Parents should be free not to vaccinate their children.

    But we should change federal law so that insurance companies no longer cover preventable diseases for which a common vaccine exists, but where the child's parents chose not to get the vaccine for non-medical reasons (like polio, MMR, etc.).

    The children will be provided with full treatment because they didn't have any choice in the matter, but the whole of the bill will be coming to their parents. If that financially ruins the parents, well, that's the risk they took.

    And if their unvaccinated kid gets someone else sick—like someone who immigrated to this country without getting the vaccine and is now too old to get it, who is medically unable to get the vaccine, or who grew up before the vaccine was widely available and is too old to get it—the parents are on the hook for reimbursing the other person's medical bills too, as well as additional funds for their pain and suffering due to an illness that should have been prevented by herd immunity.

    In other words—feel free not to vaccinate your kid, but don't come crying to us to bail out your anti-scientific arses when the consequences come home. Those who choose not to participate in our society's herd immunity to certain communicable diseases also choose to sacrifice the protections offered by society.

    "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

    by JamesGG on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:22:47 AM PST

  •  Mandatory (3+ / 0-)

    My health and the well being of other people, whether or not they have been vaccinated is dependent on herd immunity.

    Because the efficacy of some vaccinations can decline with age, herd immunity, that is the % of the population that has active immunity, creates a critical barrier to the wholesale spread of communicable disease.  When herd immunity declines below a percentage (I cannot tell you what that is) then there is increased risk of outbreaks.

    Because of this, those who deliberately choose not to vaccinate are a public health risk.  Perhaps there are those here who have never seen the results of measles encephilitis or shingles with ocular involvement.  Vaccination has been such a public health success that these are becoming rare, thank goodness.  The anti-vax crowd may have the freedom to risk their lives, but they do not have the license to risk the lives of others in a civil society.

    I do not tolerate scientific denialism, whether about evolution of anthropogenic global warming, and I have little tolerance for anti-vax denialism as well.

  •  Only mandatory if you want to mingle with other (2+ / 0-)

    people ;)

    If you're a shut-in, who has no contact with other humans, feel free to go unvaccinated ;)

  •  Mandatory since it is in the herds interest. Just (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Orakio

    on that point alone is enough but parents should not be allowed to risk their childs' right to live just for thier own beliefs...children are not possessions. They are in their parents care but they are our species steps into the future...not possessions of parents to be used as they choose. They want to teach them to worship Ra they are free to do so. They want to sacrifice them on an altar to gain favor with a voice in their head then we have to stop them for the sake of a dependent and vulnerable INDIVIDUAL.

    But herds interest trumps all. Unvaccinated children are a potential pool for the development of even worse diseases.

    Fear is the Mind Killer...

    by boophus on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:56:16 AM PST

  •  I'm on the fence about this. (4+ / 0-)

    Making it mandatory is a terrible idea, for a whole host of reasons.

    Leaving it optional is also a terrible idea, for all the reasons this diary points out.

    Leaving it optional but creating legal penalties, especially financial penalties, is an even more terrible idea.

    I don't have a good suggestion, and I can't decide which of the terrible ideas is the least worst.

    •  The best choice is real education (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pistolSO, nogo postal

      A ethical person with a good understanding of the benefits, risks, costs, and ethics of the choice would be almost compelled to choose to vaccinate. Given the minimal (and now socialized!) cost, the minimal risks, and the very high benefits thereof to self and family, not doing so generally comes down to either being misinformed about vaccines in specific or distrustful of the medical establishment as a whole.

      Barring that, though, the best we can probably do, both ethically and constitutionally, is mandate the vaccination of the school child, who is unable to assume responsibility for himself while being the most likely to suffer inordinately and the most likely to be exposed, through his schoolmates, while blairing the message out to the adults, who have the agency to choose boosters and vaccines for those diseases unlikely to affect a school child for themselves. Remember, the child is not the property of the parents; they are their own person, entrusted to the parent and to society until they reach self agency.

      •  Adults have responsibilities too. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Orakio, a gilas girl

        In the most recent outbreak of pertussis around Dallas County, a full 20% of those affected are above the age of 18; adults.

        In my lifetime (and in a short stint teaching a Medical Micro Lab. for MD students) I have seen the results of widespread disease that vaccinations and effective antibiotic therapy have alleviated.  We are on the verge of losing many treatments for some bacterial infections, and the anti-vax hysteria and denialism may corrupt public health efforts for preventable viral and bacterial diseases as well.  Many people in the US, alive today are ignorant of past widespread disease outbreaks and the harm it does.

        So, I disagree that adults can make a reasoned decision when it comes to public health.  Most adults are incapable of operating upon medical micro. and public health data, especially when most are not swayed by fact and have little training in distinguishing causality and correlation.

        I need to protect myself and my family, and know that mandatory vaccination, especially when there is a fund set up for those exceptionally rare reactions, is a societal necessity.

        •  The world that is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          a gilas girl

          and the world that should be are far seperate things, sadly. Wrongheaded, misinformed, ignorant and malicious thinking exist, and I certainly won't deny this.

          If people understood, it would be a no brainer. World's biggest if. In the face of bad thought processes, compulsory vaccination is appealing to reach the purpose. But there's going to be the legal and ethical questions of the government's ability to force you to put something you don't want into your body. Not having to mandate it would be the better choice, if we could get enough compliance without it - and I question the legal authority of the government, at state or federal level, to compel the adult individual to get vaccinated. We absolutely should be vaccinated, but doing so is a little difficult.

        •  "reasoned decisions" (0+ / 0-)

          require folks to take in factual information that they may not like.

          In a political culture where EVERYTHING has been politicized (including facts), that is made much more difficult.

          But the issues around mandatory are tricky.

          Thoughtful comment, thanks for pointing this out.

          Welcome from the DK Partners & Mentors Team. If you have any questions about how to participate here, you can learn more at the Knowledge Base or from the New Diarists Resources Diaries. Diaries labeled "Open Thread" are also great places to ask. We look forward to your contributions.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 04:44:22 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank You (0+ / 0-)

            The problem is that the scientific literacy in our society is so low that people are truly uncomfortable with "factual information that they may not like" along with uncertainty.

            As a scientist, I embrace both, however embarrassing the acceptance is to my biases.  Most people dislike such contingency.

      •  Real education isn't an alternative, though -- (0+ / 0-)

        -- it's a requirement, it's an absolutely necessary step, and it will (we hope) minimize the number of people refusing to vaccinate their kids.

        But it won't eliminate them entirely, and we will still have the conundrum of what to do about them -- i.e., whether or not we can and/or should mandate vaccinations for anybody.

        Mandating the vaccination of schoolchildren is every bit as much a violation as mandating the vaccination of everybody.  And the violation we are talking about is bodily autonomy; a law like that would be saying "you have to put this into your body whether you like it or not," and that kind of horrifies me.  Even though it is, it really is, a thing that everybody absolutely should be putting into their bodies.

  •  Mandatory (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pistolSO

    Mandatory.  It is a common good issue, from my perspective.  That outweighs individual rights.  Exception for those with medical conditions that prohibit safe use of a given vaccination.

  •  Kind of mandatory (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Be Skeptical, Heavy Mettle

    I'm of the opinion the government can reasonably restrict you from using public services (i.e. schools, libraries) unless you are vaccinated.  Don't want a vaccine?  Fine, don't expect to be allowed on public property.

    I'm uncomfortable with the government essentially forcing the needle into your bloodstream.  The fact of the matter is, you're far more likely to die from another citizen's stupidity in public by being run over by their car than sickened by their kid.

  •  Your rights end (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mbayrob

    when they threaten the lives of millions.

    "I was not born for myself alone, but for my neighbor as well as myself."--Richard Overton, leader of the Levellers, a17th C. movement for democracy and equality during the English Civil War. http://www.kynect.ky.gov/ for healthcare coverage in Kentucky

    by SouthernLeveller on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:12:41 PM PST

  •  name-calling (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eyesbright

    There are lots of kinds of stay-at-home moms.  I'm one and I know I've been lucky to be able to do that.  What I am not is irrational and un-educated.  Please don't use that term as a pejorative as it only makes you look mean and biased.  You know, sort of like the right-wing name-callers. (Also, I am as liberal as they come)

  •  ya know (0+ / 0-)

    I was in kindergarten it was 1955...5 years old..our teacher had the whole class line up..we went to the gym..we ALL received our  shot..I of course passed out within minutes of mine..small as I was my teacher picked me up and carried me to the nurse..I remember a student's voice ask "Is he dead?"

       There are certain established vaccinations that must be mandatory...Dr. Salk changed the world and it was certainly worth passing out.

    Peace/Dance/ and well..keep dancing

  •  Some children cannot tolerate vaccines (0+ / 0-)

    The next time you get a vaccine, ask for the package insert with the 4 pages of small print. You will see many side effects and warnings.

    Just like everything else, vaccines contain ingredients that are highly allergic to some:

    http://www.cdc.gov/...

    Thus, people should be highly ENCOURAGED to vaccinate, but supported in declining rather than shamed if they decline, because vaccination is not safe for 100% of recipients.

  •  THANK YOU to those who can safely vax and do . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Be Skeptical

    Those of us with family histories of serious vaccine reactions, are fighting to make vaccines safer and fighting for alternative schedules and ingredients so that we can vaccinate too.

    We are on the same page, folks.

    But I have friends who saw their baby go into a seizure immediately after a set of vaccinations. And it was acknowledged that this was a vax reaction. How can these friend keep vaccinating a child who is now harmed forever? it isn't safe. So if you can support those of us who have had this happen by :
    -- Listening to our stories
    -- Fighting with us to improve vaccine safety
    -- Helping medicine understand what triggers vax injury
    --Vaccinating your child if he is not sensitive to the ingredients
    --Helping us figure out how to reverse vaccine injury (which includes encephalitis)  

    then we can all be better off . . .

    If you can safely vaccinate and do, thank you. It makes it safer for those of us who cannot with serious harm. They DO exist. And we need your support and help so that we can make vaccines safer, get vaccinated safely too.

  •  "Stay at home mom brigade"??? (0+ / 0-)

    ???

    Is this really necessary to your argument?  That's not really how we do things around here...

    Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

    by a gilas girl on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 04:30:43 AM PST

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