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Finally, an abortion argument I can get behind!

First, all the usual caveats about the Pope and the still-medieval practices of the Catholic church, treatment of women, etc. Here they are, even the ones I've missed, all bundled in this space so that we can avoid the accusations of unnecessary hero worship. Thanks in advance.

Let's talk about why this is a big deal.

Here's how he said it:

Pope Francis Says Abortion Is Evidence Of 'Throwaway Culture'

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis has criticized abortion as evidence of a "throwaway culture" that wastes people as well as food.

In Monday's annual speech on world crises, Francis cited abortion and said: "Unfortunately what is thrown away is not only food and dispensable objects but often human beings themselves, who are discarded as unnecessary."

http://www.gallup.com/...

Abortion is one of the most emotional and messy issues that our country deals with. You can see from the graph above that the abortion argument has been at a stalemate for quite a while now, with about a 50/50 split on pro-choice or anti-choice. (That's my framing, deal with it.)

In the context of the recent spike in support for gay marriage and marijuana legalization, the abortion argument appears to be stubbornly stationary. This is in spite of the Tea Party wave of 2010, which led to Republican legislatures country wide enacting severe anti-abortion laws. The harshness and severity of those laws either hasn't filtered into public consciousness, or it's just that abortion is a far more complicated argument than weed legalization / gay marriage.

Of course, everyone agrees that ideally there should be as few abortions as possible. And of course, the Republican position of outlawing abortion has always been absurd and punitive. And the reason it's absurd and punitive is because capitalism creates the economic conditions where having children becomes a massive economic burden due to the splintering of society and the lack of a real social safety net.

Would anyone like to dispute that Pope Francis' "Throw-Away Culture" line is not a dog-whistle for capitalism at this point, especially in the context of his previous statements? I'd be happy to hear them.

Now here's a question: Can you imagine if Pope Francis managed to convince evangelicals Christians that unrestrained capitalism is the true cause of the high abortion rate?

As I said: an "anti-abortion" argument I can finally get behind.

I expect to see some epic meltdowns if he keeps pulling this thread.

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Comment Preferences

  •  The majority of abortions would be (30+ / 0-)

    prevented if there were universal healthcare, including reproductive healthcare, adequate social support, and support for families. The number needed would be reduced to contraceptive failure, congenital anomalies, rape, and risk to the life of the mother. All these issues are interwoven.



    Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

    by Wee Mama on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:26:14 AM PST

  •  choice is not a political issue (15+ / 0-)

    it's a human riights issue. it's about the right of women to make decisions about their own bodies. and the pope's medievalism about choice is not in any way excusable.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:29:07 AM PST

    •  Choice vs. abortion (5+ / 0-)

      Is he criticizing the legality and freedom of choice or the act itself? Choice is a term Americans use for the right and freedom to choose. He may be (probably) against that too. But that's not clear. He seems to be commenting on the act of aborting a fetus. Many 100% pro-choice activists would agree with that. It's different IMO than proposing women and girls be denied choice, a political intrusion he will hopefully avoid, or worse, proposing a stigma apply to women who choose abortion, a judgement he already has seemed averse to.  

      •  i see no mention of the word "fetus" (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JBL55, wu ming, a2nite, Rogneid, BlackSheep1

        unless he's breaking some radical new ground, he means all abortion. all. and he just made at least one anti-choice- even in case of rape- crusader a cardinal.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 08:06:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, I have no hopes for a pro-Choice pope... (0+ / 0-)

          ...nor have I jumped on the bandwagon of progressive-pope-hope. He's as dogmatic as the rest of his clan. I just do interpret the context here as I described which I also believe is an immutable foundational belief for any pope (and plenty of pro-Choice activists) even if he muzzles the anti-choice attack dogs in the US RC church. His redirection of RW political efforts within his church would be a great public service, consistent with even is dogmatic beliefs, and he can do that while speaking against abortion IMO - that would be coherent and constructive.

      •  This is a crucial distinction. (8+ / 0-)

        It is entirely possible to be morally opposed to abortion and also morally opposed to outlawing abortion.

        •  There are a lot of people who call into this camp: (3+ / 0-)

          Many of them Catholic. They think a fetus is a person, but unlike Fundies, they think that the mother is a human too, and with her feet actually touching soil, people who love her, quite possibly other children at home, they think she is entitled to decide the direction of her life, especially when her health and life are at risk.

          I'd say most of the regular-church-going/ practicing Catholics I know fall into this camp.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 10:39:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I think the Church should stay out of politics. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, kck

        Once they excommunicate a pro choice candidate or the pope, bishop and priests tell politicians that they can't receive communion, that over the line. And telling Catholics they should vote against a candidate based on one issue, abortion, is also over the line.

      •  But you can't put these two up as if they (0+ / 0-)

        are a juxtaposition.

        Without abortion there is no (full) choice.  So it isn't a case of choice VS. abortion, but choice INCLUDING abortion (at times).

        This is the issue.

        There has to be a shift from the medieval point of view that Laurence Lewis is talking about.

         

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 11:53:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not sure I understand. (0+ / 0-)

          When I use the term Choice it absolutely & always includes abortion. However one can speak about abortion assuming one has the freedom to choose it and discuss other issues besides its legality and availability. I assume RC clerics, along with everyone else,  can coherently and consistently speak about church views on abortion with respect to concepts of life and sexuality in RC dogma without commenting on US laws or politics. I have no position whatsoever on what the RC church's POV on abortion is - I like the separation between church and state.

    •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Frederick Clarkson, Whatithink

      And I agree with the Pope but for a different reason. Unrestrained capitalism, which has led to diminished wages and the necessity of every adult to work, many in multiple jobs, has made supporting a child in many cases close to impossible, and women often decide on abortion when they feel they can't do so.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 09:59:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think (11+ / 0-)

    anyone WANTS there to be abortion. I think everyone recognizes in an ideal world that there would be no abortion, and every woman could be free to be pregnant or not if she chose.

    But there's the ideal world, and then there's reality. Accidents happen with contraception. Rape happens (Akin be damned). Sometimes one's economic security takes a dramatic turn for the worst. Sometimes a child can be diagnosed in the womb as having absolutely no future whatsoever. And sometimes women get so desperate that they turn to back-alley doctors, and subsequently die from poor medical care.

    These reasons are why abortion needs to be "safe, legal, and rare". No one disputes that it should be rare. No one is itching for there to be MORE abortions - just for there to be greater ACCESS to abortion if a woman needs one.

    TX-17 (Bill Flores-R), TX Sen-14 (Kirk Watson-D), TX HD-50 (TBD - Likely Celia Israel-D)

    by Le Champignon on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:31:19 AM PST

    •  Well, nobody really "wants" surgery or other (8+ / 0-)

      medical treatment unless they need it.

      An abortion is a medical procedure that when it is needed, it is wanted. Any woman who needs one should have access to one.

      And like other medical procedures, it is much better to work to prevent them, not because abortion is immoral, but because any medical procedure comes along with risk. It is better to prevent an unwanted pregnancy than to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

      Of course, many women need abortions for wanted pregnancies as well. The reasons are as diverse as humanity. Ultimately, it isn't the reason that matters. The need is what matters.

      •  Sorry but if I don't believe it is like all other (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z

        medical procedures per se. Would you call pulling a tooth the same as abortion? Most would not. It may not be a life in the womb but it is its potential that gives it the different value. I totally agree with this pope that the reason women choose abortion is by far for economic reasons. And I agree that no shame should be involved in having an abortion because of the gravity of the choice being made. People that liken abortion to just a medical procedure actually do the pro-choice movement a disservice because most sympathetic people know it isn't a tooth being extracted and makes those who are pro-choice look callous, just like the right.

        •  It isn't like a tooth extraction necessarily (0+ / 0-)

          but it might be more likened to having a hysterectomy or having your prostate removed or having a mastectomy. You don't want to have those, but if you need them, you get them (if you're lucky).

          Women who have had abortions feel very differently about them. There is no "one way" women feel about them, and while some may feel regret about the "life in the womb" others may resent being told they should regret it. Not all do. It is best to allow individual women the choice about getting one, and about how they personally feel about it.

        •  Whatithink: Whose business except (0+ / 0-)

          the patient and the provider's are those procedures?

          Do you think politicians and priests should advocate against pulling teeth or removing appendices that have become infected?

          Do you think we should all say, "Well, it's God's will that kid have clogged Eustachian tubes? It's God's will that a woman die from a tubal pregnancy? It's God's will that a malignant tumor cause a painful, lengthy death?"

          Or that politicians should have a say over who gets access to dialysis as well as birth control, or a root canal as well as a D&C?

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:45:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I want there to be abortion (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      NE2, majcmb1

      Abortion should be celebrated as an unqualified moral good. It should be actively encouraged by both church and state. If any woman finds abortion more attractive than having a child, abortion should be preferred. We need fewer human beings on this planet, and particularly fewer human beings who grow up unwanted, who are likely to be psychologically damanged by that. Meanwhile women who have abortions should not be stigmatized, but rather reassured that they have taken a path which God, state and society fully support.

      Yes, birth control is far preferable to abortion. Let's see, what religious organizations and which political party are are against birth control? Right.

      I like this pope. He doesn't take the "infallible" thing seriously. He is wrong on abortion. Fortunately, he doesn't want to overly focus there.

      The alternative to population control including abortion is population collapse from plague, war and famine. Every "life" saved by the anti-abortionists will result in multiple lives lost to plague, war and famine, due to the multiplier effect of population increase. Those who oppose abortion promote our doom as a species and a planet, even if this is not their intent.

      •  Your argument has no merit because it stands in (0+ / 0-)

        isolation only...

        We need fewer human beings on this planet, and particularly fewer human beings who grow up unwanted

        You claim that it is only those in the womb, the 'giving birth' part makes all parts in the womb -value and all parts out +value. The line of valuable life has been arbitrarily set at birth by the pro-choice movement for a reason: because it is then that it leaves the womb. But life is a continuum from conception to death. Would you be arguing the above for those living that are unwanted? Remember the line is arbitrary since all life is on a continuum. We CHOSE to have it be birth, which makes your argument of value a fallacy. And if you argue that it is that black and white, then the pope's argument of throwaway culture is spot on, IMO.

        •  "life is a continuum from conception to death" (0+ / 0-)

          only in a religious sense. There's no scientific reason for calling a just-fertilized egg life, and rather questionable reasons for calling an early-term fetus life.

          warning: snark probably above

          by NE2 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:35:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Sadly, "rare" becomes impossible if (7+ / 0-)

      you also oppose access to contraception.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 10:01:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  i don't agree with that at all (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a gilas girl, BlackSheep1, HoopJones

      abortion doesn't need to be rare, it needs to be one option among many to manage one's reproductive health, period. there is no moral conundrum with them, in my opinion.

      just because "safe, legal and rare" is dem party talking points does not mean that every democrat - much less every person - buys into them.

    •  Don't project, though (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1

      There is a danger to that.

      There are plenty of women who dislike the idea of pregnancy, birth, motherhood enough that they might, under certain circumstances, prefer abortion to an unplanned pregnancy.

      And we should not allow those women's choices to be demonized, as the anti-choice movement has done.  

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 11:55:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  you know, dammit, Big Dog was WRONG (0+ / 0-)

      It needs to be Safe, Legal, and Available.

      Is it ever a first resort, or the only resort? That's NOBODY's BUSINESS except the woman's. NOBODY'S BUSINESS at all.

      The only person she should have any reason to discuss such a decision with is a health care provider -- a doctor, in other words.

      Not a priest.
      Not a parent.
      Not a partner.
      Not a rapist.

      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:41:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If a Catholic Pope were to convince evangelicals (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    firemage, majcmb1, Stude Dude, BlackSheep1

    of anything, that would be a neat trick.

    Much more likely would be convincing conservative Catholics.

    Interesting thing about conservative Catholics: many of them are receptive to left-of-center economic arguments.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:36:22 AM PST

  •  Toilet flushing is evidence of throwaway culture (5+ / 0-)

    If you eat you should be prepared to deal with the products and turn them into fertilizer.

    warning: snark probably above

    by NE2 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:36:48 AM PST

  •  Well, if the Pope recognizes that capitalism, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JBL55, Naniboujou, johanus

    as it has evolved, in just a euphemism for metaphoric cannibalism, then the killing of humans at any time by their own kind is equally deplorable.
    Of course, the abuse that produces intentionally terminated impregnations is also deplorable.
    On the other hand, since a majority of fertilized ova are in fact aborted shortly before or after implantation, the use of the term for a natural process as a derogatory reference to medical/surgical intervention is even more deplorable because it reveals scant respect for women being coerced either before or after impregnation. Indeed, since all pregnancies are potentially life-threatening, the coercion is ipso facto a crime. For the state to become complicit in a coerced pregnancy after the fact is worse than the initial insult because the agents of the state are pledged to prevent insult and injury, not back it up.

    But then, respect for human rights has not been a Constitutional strong point from the start. It's still mostly an aspiration.

    Obamacare at your fingertips: 1-800-318-2596; TTY: 1-855-889-4325

    by hannah on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:41:22 AM PST

    •  Yes. This: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BlackSheep1
      since a majority of fertilized ova are in fact aborted shortly before or after implantation
      The fact of the spontaneous failure of most conceptions in the first few post- fertilization days has very consequential implications for one's moral perspective on abortion.  Would that the fact were better known and its implications more broadly appreciated. The conceptus is no more a person than a surveyor's stake is a building.

      Almost nothing has a name.

      by johanus on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:08:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  how does the Holy Father explain the fact (9+ / 0-)

    that abortion predates capitalism by . . . how many millennia?

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:46:15 AM PST

    •  Exactly. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mamamorgaine, corvo

      Women have been seeking to abort unwanted fetuses as long as they have thought it both desirable and  possible.

    •  Capitalism encourages, rather than causes (0+ / 0-)

      I suspect if you tried to pin Francis down, his point would be not that prior to the consumer culture there was no abortion, but that there was not a large, overt population for which it was free of stigma.

      I confess to ignorance of the history and anthropology of this myself. In every society, women who needed contraception and abortions have found support, if only among certain other women. But until modern medicine and nutrition converted survival to adulthood the norm, it's my impression that abundance of offspring was  regarded everywhere as an indisputable social good. And that would suggest that abortion and contraception would have been stigmatized.

      If my untutored perception is right, then the normalization of both contraception and abortion would be due to improved survival rates, which happened to occur over the same period as capitalism rose to ascendancy., and Francis is committing a fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

      •  But of course. (0+ / 0-)
        I suspect if you tried to pin Francis down, his point would be not that prior to the consumer culture there was no abortion, but that there was not a large, overt population for which it was free of stigma.
        In a culture in which abortion is punishable by death and often results in death anyway due to unsafe procedures, there probably were -- surprise! -- fewer abortions.  Oh that Catholic respect for life in all its forms!

        And Bergoglio is guilty of much worse than post hoc ergo propter hoc.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 08:20:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  you should listen to yourself (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, Frederick Clarkson

        when you professed ignorance of the history of these things, instead of turning around and making shit up in order to support your assumptions.

      •  Actually (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nicteis, corvo

        the history is rooted in the rise of professional medicine and the removal of this area of expertise away from women and the culture of lay-midwifery and into the (mostly unsterile and therefore rather dangerous hands) of male physicians.

        There was much more abortion in the pre-modern era than the Church wants to admit.  Why do you think those charges of witchcraft fell so heavily upon women healers, many of whom also served as midwives?

           

        Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

        by a gilas girl on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:01:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  a gilas girl: Semmelweiss (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nicteis, a gilas girl

          tried to change the culture of those docs. We're still trying today. In October,Texas Tech presented a Community Medical School class on this. Fascinating!

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:53:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  A valuable point (0+ / 0-)

          I'm well aware of the importance of women healers and midwives in the earlier history - which is part of what I had in mind when I wrote of "support ... among certain other women".  But your point about the professionalization - and concomitant male control - of medicine suppressing those supports was, for me, a new angle.

          I didn't expect my post to make me into Mr. Popular. :-)  Still, I was hoping for more responses like yours, digging into the history, rather than just being told in effect that I'm full of shit. Such is the Internet.

          I remain curious whether someone here knows of pre-modern cultures in which no stigma attached to contraception or abortion.

          •  there was little to no stigma (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nicteis

            attached to ending pregnancies prior to "quickening" since that was determined to be "the beginning of the pregnancy" in many cases.

            Remember that in the pre-modern era, what was known about the human reproductive cycle was both limited and mostly inaccurate, so it all seemed a bit "other worldly" which is part of the reason why the church held women who possessed this kind of knowledge and skill to be themselves "supernatural".  And also because it was a realm they couldn't control. So, power struggle.

            As for the history of the rise of the profession of medicine and the accompanying ban on not only abortion, but also the practice of midwifery itself, see the work of historian Carroll Smith Rosenburg, among others.  There has been quite of bit of work by historians of medicine on this aspect.  

            Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

            by a gilas girl on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 04:46:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  both held to come from an ethos of selfishness (0+ / 0-)

      Taking without giving, throwing away what is given if it does not profit or please, and reducing everyone and everything to objects that have value or purpose only in reference to oneself and one's needs and wants.

      Capitalism reduces all persons to units of production and consumption who are devalued, deprived, and discarded if their utility cannot justify them to people who categorically reject any claim made by any other entity upon themselves.  By Francis' logic, abortion is driven by the same mentality: a woman looks at her swollen belly and all she sees is a burden - an expense - that surely she would be better off without.  And the reason she found herself in that position was also selfishness: on her part and/or that of her partner.

      Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

      by Visceral on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 02:12:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Really, this argument is no better (6+ / 0-)

    than the old Communist saw about homosexuality being caused by bourgeois capitalism.

    But since this Supreme Pontiff is oh so dreeeeamy we're not supposed to respond to it with the derision it deserves?

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 07:54:10 AM PST

  •  Letting women work can be blamed on capitalism (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    HoopJones

    You really should be careful about running with every single thing the Pope says.  He's not supporting abortion rights on this, not in the slightest.

    One could argue that letting women work outside the home, and be anything other than barefoot and pregnant, is a fault of capitalism and a throw-away culture that values money more than "traditional family values".

    The Pope isn't calling for abortion rights.  And he isn't saying that capitalism causes the circumstances leading to abortions.  He's saying that capitalism ALLOWS abortions.

    So the next time a single woman with a career says she needs to have an abortion so she can continue working and climbing the corporate ladder...  You should tell her to get married and keep the baby, so that capitalist greed doesn't cause another abortion.  She can be poor and happy with the baby, the way a good Catholic should be. And then the Pope will have more poor to console.

    Do you agree with all that?

    •  Actually, capitalism didn't "let" women work (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Whatithink, BlackSheep1

      outside the home — it FORCED them to. Today there would be rampant poverty if women didn't work because of the decline in living-wage jobs and the decline of wages in general. This isn't about "climbing the corporate ladder." Those jobs are in a vanishingly small minority. It's about having to work two retail jobs to afford a small apartment and food on the table.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 10:04:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So women do need a husband? (0+ / 0-)

        I'm curious how you think single women without a husband would support themselves if they didn't work outside the home?

        And forgive me, but it sounds like you agree with the Pope.  If it wasn't for capitalism forcing women to work outside the home, they could all be married, barefoot and pregnant, in the kitchen where they belong.  No need for abortion either.  Father should be able to support that massive crop of children.  That's how my wife's Catholic grandfather lived.  My father in law was one of 14 kids.  No birth control, the Lord will provide.

        Did I miss something?

        •  Norm: in the Catholic tradition (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago

          they'd be Sisters ... nurses or teachers or social workers paid with a cot and three meals and a uniform (aka a nun's habit).

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:54:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  well, I suspect the multiple generations of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Norm in Chicago

      peasant women among my ancestors might disagree a bit that capitalism made women work.

      What capitalism did was (eventually) give women control over the "fruits of their labor" in a way that no other system had ever done before.  But not, of course, without a fight.

      If you see any interesting parallels between control over one kind of the "fruit of women's labor" and another kind of the "fruit of women's labor", I'm thinking that's probably not just coincidental.  Which suggests that perhaps, the relationship between labor politics, reproductive politics and capitalism is just a tad bit more complex than the old chimera "capitalism did it".

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 12:05:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ladies and Gentlemen, yet another round (0+ / 0-)

    in the eternal game of "He who playeth not the game shall not set the rules."

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 08:16:49 AM PST

  •  This will be an interesting one to watch play out (0+ / 0-)

    Capitalism causes abortion.

    Cue exploding heads in 3,2,1...

  •  Francis is out of touch (4+ / 0-)

    There is so much wrong with this that it is hard to know where to begin.   Considering his was apparently an offhand remark, it is important to be careful not to draw too sharp conclusions from this. (I would like to think that Francis knows better, but I suspect he really does not.)

    Let me make three brief points.

    The Soviet Union had high abortion rates.  

    Most women, even in capitalist countries, do not choose abortion lightly. To assume otherwise is not only wrong but deeply insulting to most women.

    Other Christian traditions consider a moral choice, as do most American Catholics, including those who would share Francis's critiques of the excesses of capitalism.

    •  Studies on women and abortion (0+ / 0-)

      conclude:

      TW: The take-home from that study is that most women are having an abortion because they say they can't afford to have a child. And it turns out that they're right: Two years later, women who had a baby they weren't expecting to have, compared to the women who had the abortion they wanted, are three times more likely to be living in poverty. They knew they couldn't afford a kid and it turns out they were correct.

      - See more at: http://crooksandliars.com/...

  •  Are we talking about the culture of throwing away (4+ / 0-)

    unwanted fetuses, or the culture of throwing away all women and children? Because that's what unrestrained capitalism and the Evangelical Religious Right both want to do. The Catholic Church officially only throws away women, and unofficially altar boys.

    Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

    by Mokurai on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 10:03:59 AM PST

  •  So Wait -- telling outrageous lies about (0+ / 0-)

    abortion makes opposition to it ok?

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Mon Jan 13, 2014 at 11:43:31 AM PST

  •  I think he is just saying (0+ / 0-)

    That we shouldn't throw out the aborted fetus remains because they make a yummy nutritious meal.  

    Waste not, want not.  

  •  "...everyone agrees..." No. (0+ / 0-)

    No, everyone does not agree that ideally there should be as few abortions as possible. There should be as many as desired by women. End of story.

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