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It has been all to common to turn on the TV or look on the internet and see breaking news reporting another shooting.  But these shootings have always been far away.

But today the breaking news concerned a shooting in my community at the Mall that I shop in sometimes.

Columbia is not the type of community where you would expect that this type of shooting would occur.  It is fairly affluent suburban community halfway between Baltimore and Washington D.C.  

Columbia, Maryland is different from most suburbs.  

The late James W. Rouse’s vision for Columbia was for a safe, open community devoid of the racial, social and economic problems that plagued so many other places.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

James Rouse envisioned a community that would be ethnically, racially, and religiously diverse.   And this diversity continues today.    According to The Washington Post:

Just over half of Columbia residents are white, a quarter are black, 11 percent are Asian and about 8 percent are Hispanic or Latino. About 18 percent of residents were born in another country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

There are interfaith centers where people of various religions share a common space.

Columbia is a Democratic area in a Democratic State.  Unlike some other places in the country, there is not a strong gun culture here.

And there is a low crime rate here. The Baltimore Sun reported that in 2012:

Homicides investigated by Howard police remained at four cases for the third year in a row.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/...

Yet today our community was touched by violence as the shooting at the local mall made national news.  And it has been reported that two local mall employees are dead as a result.

And despite these types of shootings in communities throughout this nation, we still don't have national gun control.

I hope that the shooting today will be the last one of its type reported.  But sadly I suspect that it will not.  

This madness has to stop.

Originally posted to night cat on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 08:22 PM PST.

Also republished by Maryland Kos, Shut Down the NRA, Firearms Law and Policy, and Repeal or Amend the Second Amendment (RASA).

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Comment Preferences

  •  Sadly, the ubiquitous guns make this moot: (21+ / 0-)
    (fill-in-the-blank) ... is not the type of community where you would expect that this type of shooting would occur.
  •  You can't have a national gun control program (6+ / 0-)

    At least not the kind that can prevent this kind of shootings.  Not until the Constitution is Amended.

    We have some national gun control laws: The BATFE is the key enforcer of them at the dealer and production level.  

    But until the Constitution is amended to remove the words "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", there will be no way to control who has guns in this nation.

    Stupid question hour starts now and ends in five minutes.

    by DrillSgtK on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:09:23 PM PST

    •  I think we can come up with laws to... (21+ / 0-)

      reduce gun deaths...and fit within the confines of the 2a.

      most of the CA laws have been challenged and passed...they just need to go national.

      a good start would be to repeal all the crap the NRA has pushed on us for the last 40 years...that couldn't hurt.

      We are not broke, we are being robbed...but we can fight back...#KosKatalogue

      by Glen The Plumber on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:19:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We could but we won't. The 2ndA has been (6+ / 0-)

        interpreted out of existence. It is useless.

        Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

        by 88kathy on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:49:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  A progressive majority SCOTUS wouldn't be useless (6+ / 0-)

          and would sure as shit see a rational interpretation return that replaces Ashcroft's asshatted armorist theory.  

          "I'll press your flesh, you dimwitted sumbitch! " -Pappy O'Daniel

          by jakewaters on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 05:35:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, 2A may be CLAIMED to be absolutist... (7+ / 0-)

          ... and void all efforts at reasonable gun regulations, but it isn't ... and doesn't. The Supreme Court has taken only two gun cases - Heller and McDonald - that it decided on 2A grounds. More lower courts have messed with it, but SCOTUS has not taken any new 2A cases in years despite being offered several to review.

          It's the gun rights advocates - who are as aggressive in the courts as they are in legislatures - who tout those comprehensive applications of so-called constitutional rights, often without success in the courts.

          I think legislatures could do a great deal more than gun rightists think, without changing SCOTUS's decision on 2A's basic right of self defense in the home, but they are paralyzed by the NRA. That need not continue because of the Constitution.

          2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

          by TRPChicago on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 06:46:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  That sounds like wishful thinking (6+ / 0-)

          OTOH, The guideposts for constitutional limitations on the right to keep and bear arms are gradually being developed in the lower courts. Hundreds of federal and state gun laws have been challenged since Heller, and the vast majority have been upheld in the lower courts. More than 60 gun law cases have been denied review when they petitioned the Supreme Court.

          Rosenthal & Winkler,  The Scope of Regulatory Authority Under the Second Amendment, Jan 2013

          The paper is available at the link.

          "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

          by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 08:53:46 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am banking on the armed group 'demonstrating' (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

            their rights to end the madness. People who support the 2ndA haven't had this group walking down the street in their neighborhood at dinner time.

            Soon they will march in a neighborhood near you. The 'grab your guns' group is bored to death. They have been hunkering down for 5 years.

            They scare the crap out of each other and take off to prove their guns are benign by waving them in the face of peaceful shoppers and neighborhood dwellers. It doesn't show any signs of letting up.

            Soon an unexpected sound will cause them to empty their magazines, in that 5 minutes, good bye 2ndA. Body count doesn't count, but that will. It's all gonna end on a peripheral vision jumping of the guns. When every body beside you is shooting, can you not shoot too?

            Groups of people hopped up on fear cannot hold their fire.

            Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

            by 88kathy on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 09:28:03 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you have two points there (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              I agree with you about the the "Open Carrry crowd" overreach. [See Starbucks CEO letter]. IMO, they overlap with the "all regulations are infringement" crowd.

              1. The Open Carry activist crowd are really starting to piss off the concealed carry crowd. The former think the later are too moderate, while the later are willing to be surrender some privacy, are willing to be inconvenienced. They just don't want it to cost a fortune or require months for an application to be approved.

              Many of the concealed carry crowd don't believe more guns is the answer. They believe more enforcement is needed and many do support safety training, and various forms of licensing. Some even support registration.

              2. There is plenty of examples of this:

              Soon an unexpected sound will cause them to empty their magazines, in that 5 minutes, good bye 2ndA. Body count doesn't count, but that will. It's all gonna end on a peripheral vision jumping of the guns. When every body beside you is shooting, can you not shoot too?

              that who even current police training is inadequate to prevent "contagious" firing.

              Groups of people hopped up on fear cannot hold their fire.

              "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

              by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 10:58:01 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Given the 2010 election-driven gerrymandering... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

            ... (and Yes, both sides do it, when they can!), I don't think there is a bat's chance of a Constitutional amendment getting traction. And in any event, J. Scalia's artful reading of history to parse 2A's prefatory words and bound ahead where previous SCOTUSes chose not to go, rests on one vote.

            In this, the Right may be right. The departure of a conservative justice in a Democratic administration with a filibuster-proof Senate holds the potential to limit if not change the holdings in Heller and McDonald. But that may not be necessary. For this Court is waiting to see how lower courts, state and Federal, deal with its two 2A decisions. Again, 2A is not nearly as big and broad as gun rightists say it is. Not yet.

            There is supreme irony in all of this. Before Heller, states wrote their own gun laws. In some places, guns were harder to get and carry than in others (next to impossible in some places, reflecting local politics) and Federal laws contained and regulated - to some extent - interstate commerce in guns. After Heller, that is no less so. Heller and some of its lower court progeny have indeed changed the landscape and some of us chafe at the results, but that's the life of politics.

            What is most likely to change is legislative action in the face of a profusion of inherently dangerous instrumentalities and the continued news of gun violence.

            I, for one, do not want to be a prisoner of absolutism on either extreme. There's no reason for the profusion of firearms beyond reasonable regulation of guns or users and no reason to ban them or take them away from law-abiders.

            What is wishful is that we can explore things to agree on and enact them without demonizing the motives of the other side. Just like other public policy debates, just like in neighborhoods, just like in families. Yes, that may be wished for.

            2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

            by TRPChicago on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 09:31:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is much irony in the current situation (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TRPChicago, Glen The Plumber
              There is supreme irony in all of this. Before Heller, states wrote their own gun laws. In some places, guns were harder to get and carry than in others (next to impossible in some places, reflecting local politics) and Federal laws contained and regulated - to some extent - interstate commerce in guns. After Heller, that is no less so. Heller and some of its lower court progeny have indeed changed the landscape and some of us chafe at the results, but that's the life of politics.
              My current understanding of lower court decisions,  Heller/McDonald so far is that the 2A guarantees to law abiding persons the right to own a handgun for the purpose of self defense (defense of hearth and home). Some of them call that the CORE right.

              I have come across an interesting wrinkle in some of the decisions. Even in states where one must have a license to own, such as DC, one of the exemptions, is for adult family members to use the licensee's gun for the purpose of self defense. The logical extension of that principle is that everyone in the household should receive safety training and proficiency testing.

              "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

              by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 11:08:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Makes sense to me. Obviously, a gun safe ... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

                ... and maybe even a trigger lock could put a gun beyond reasonable use for self-defense.

                My problem is a case like Moore v. Madigan, the Federal case in Illinois that led the legislature to pass a carry law. It took the right of self defense and said that applied to sidewalks and public spaces. In an opinion by two allegedly conservative but activist judges, the Court kept jurisdiction to be sure the legislature did something it would ultimately approve of.

                Gun advocates obviously high-fived that decision, but it scared the hell out of some of the rest of us, who do not feel safer for the impending presence of weapons in bars, restaurants and the sidewalks of Chicago.

                When somebody pulls a gun in a crowded bar (for the record, a bar that makes 51% or more of its gross revenue from serving food, as do a couple of bars close to where I live), I'm not going to be able to tell whether he/she's the NRA's Good Guy or a Bad Guy before a shot is fired.

                2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

                by TRPChicago on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 11:45:05 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  nonsense (11+ / 0-)

      There are dozens of commonsense things we could do short of amending the constitution (which would be ideal, but will take decades).

      We could have strict restrictions to track exactly who has which guns and which bullets, making it harder for them to repeat crimes.

      We could require strict liability insurance, forcing those who design, manufacture, distribute, sell, own or possess guns to be on the hook for any damage done by guns they allowed to be passed on.

      As a society, we could ostracize those who make and sell guns.

      For starters...

    •  Safety training and licensing would (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight, The Marti

      very likely make a difference to reduce firearm homicides, just as hunter safety training and hunting licensing did to reduce hunting homicides.

      Hunting Fatalities
      Submitted by Roberta Scruggs on Mon, 11/10/2008 - 6:10pm.

      [...]

      In the past quarter century, hunters in Maine have killed 22 people, including five in the past decade, the last in 2006. With more than 200,000 hunters, that’s a remarkable safety record and a striking contrast to the toll before a nationwide safety crusade. From 1932 to 1941, with half as many hunters, 131 people died in Maine hunting homicides, including 21 in 1935 alone.

      I’m heartened by the gains in safety, but haunted by how tragic hunting fatalities are for the victims, shooters, families and even investigating officers. [...]

      As Gary Anderson, who was Maine’s safety officer for 25 years, once told me, there are always two victims. One person’s life ends in a moment; the other relives that moment for the rest of his life.

      And yes, I know that the shooting in Maryland is not about gun safety.

      "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

      by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 08:33:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you realize (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight, Glen The Plumber

      how empty and dismissive this sounds?

      But until the Constitution is amended to remove the words "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", there will be no way to control who has guns in this nation.
      Why foreclose all the possible regulations that in some states have significantly reduced gun fatalities?
      13 states have firearms fatalities* 20% or more below the national average.  

      HI, MA, RI, NY, CT, NJ, IA, NH, MN, NE, ME, WI, IL

      They account for 24% of the national population.

      *Firearms-related firearms fatalities, 2004-2010, CDC - WISQARS

      Competency to use a gun safely does not magically arrive the moment a gun is placed in someone's hand. There is no 2A right to create a menace with a gun, and the Heller interpretation of the Second Amendment foreclose all possible regulations.

      A presumption that safety training and owner licensing wouldn't matter is so narrow-minded, that I don't believe you meant to dismiss all options. What did you mean?

      What do I mean?

      I mean to point out that success has many fathers. What works in Hawaii doesn't necessarily translate to all other states. Shouldn't we be looking at the states above, where a quarter of the population live and work, to see what policies and regulations work together to reduce gun fatalities?

      "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

      by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 08:45:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  In the long run, do you support repeal of 2A? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber

      Just curious, as it wasn't clear from your comment. :-)  

      Repeal (or amendment) of the 2nd Amendment could permit different states and cities to enact different regulations -- a "states' rights approach" is one possibility.

      (By "long run" I mean maybe 175 years -- about the time it took from when Quakers first signed a petition opposing slavery, until the Emancipation Proclamation.)

      I'm certainly not suggesting the US is currently ready for repeal! :-)

      I'm also certainly not proposing that all guns (including my own) be banned.

      Giving voters in each state the freedom to decide what kind of gun-environment they want to live in makes sense to me.

      •  The Second Amendment does not blanket ... (3+ / 0-)

        ... the territory. Only the most virulent gun rightists argue that. (Though I grant you, there are a lot of vocal gun advocates and advocacy groups, and they have learned how to be very effective in legislative action.)

        There's still plenty of room for state-level action. What SCOTUS's 2A decisions did was to put gun issues in play and that promoted successful challenge in states with the strictest laws (I.e. Illinois, driven largely in the past on this by Chicago's concerns) and succored compliant legislatures into even more ridiculous measures (I.e. guns in stadiums). But New York state's recent law survived - in most of its particulars - a strong, sophisticated, well-financed challenge in Federal court recently. That decision will almost certainly be appealed, and J. Skretny's opinion was a good one!

        States do have room to act in these areas. What they need most, I believe, is the will.

        2014 is HERE. Build up the Senate. Win back the House : 17 seats. Plus!

        by TRPChicago on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 10:44:56 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  We already have this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Glen The Plumber
        permit different states and cities to enact different regulations
        And I've seen nothing to suggest that repeal of the 2A would reduce the diversity of law across the country.

        NH and HI have the same gun fatality rates, despite vastly different gun laws. Clearly, there is more than one set of cultures/laws that can reduce gun violence.

        Some people always throw up DC as an example of the failure of strict gun laws. And yes they have a problem with gun homicides, they are higher than all the states. But those who use that as evidence against registration and licensing, are those who insist that gun suicides don't count as gun violence. DC has by far, the lowest gun suicides. They are a real outlier compared to the states.

        "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

        by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 11:16:04 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not *nearly* to the degree that could occur (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          if for example "by the Federal government" were amended to the end of 2A.

          I think it's a pretty safe bet that far greater diversity would then occur. (Eg., DC re-enacting the laws overturned under Heller, California moving ahead on various proposals, perhaps urban areas like Detroit or Manhattan enacting different laws, etc. It would also permit anti-regulation states to move ahead with that agenda.)

          •  DC has arguably better laws now than before (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber

            Heller. They are still working out some wrinkles.

            Their post-Heller laws have already been challenged, and some key provisions have been upheld by the DC Circuit Court of Appeals.

            The DC Circuit Court of Appeals upheld DC's right to make gun laws, their gun registration law, their assault weapons law, and their ban on high-capacity magazine, (their limit of 10-round magazines), as CONSTITUTIONAL restrictions on the 2A right to keep and bear arms.

            The court remanded a bunch of other provisions back to the District Court because neither side had provided sufficient evidence to support their claims. That means both sides gets another bite at the apple.

            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

            by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 11:58:11 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They'd arguably be even better yet, without 2A, (0+ / 0-)

              because they would reflect the will of the democratically elected representatives of the District, and the legal interpretations of the four liberal Supreme Court Justices, rather than the agenda of right-wing Republicans from out-of-state and their GOP-appointed SCOTUS hit-men. The District (city) council, the mayor, and DC's sole delegate to Congress (Walter E. Fauntroy) all supported the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975, passed in Sept 1976.  It was one of the more significant acts passed by the DC Council, which was created only 3 years earlier, in 1973. (I believe Fauntroy's successor since 1991, Eleanor Holmes Norton, later supported it as well.) The right-wing onslaught to overturn this Act violated the gains made by those who favor home-rule (and statehood) for the heavily-Democratic District of Columbia.

              The June 2008 Heller decision struck down the portion of the 1975 Firearms Control Regulations Act that barred residents from owning handguns not registered prior to the Act (perhaps the most restrictive law in the country). It also struck down the requirement that all guns in DC have a trigger lock (or be kept unloaded and disassembled).

              These two provisions were at the core of the bill, they are not merely "a bunch of other provisions" or "wrinkles." To suggest otherwise is deeply disingenuous, especially for anyone not familiar with the bill and the intense debate over its overturn.

              The SCOTUS 5-4 majority decision was written by Justice Antonin Scalia (I think most Kossacks are familiar with him?), joined by Justices John G. Roberts Jr., Clarence Thomas,  Samuel A. Alito Jr, and Anthony M. Kennedy. (Again, at least a couple familiar names?)

              Justice John Paul Stevens' dissent, joined by Justices David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Stephen Breyer (do those names sound familiar?), argued that Scalia's decision was "a strained and unpersuasive reading" which overturned longstanding precedent, and that the court had "bestowed a dramatic upheaval in the law. [...] The Court would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons.... I could not possibly conclude that the Framers made such a choice." Kossacks interested in gun-violence debates should read that dissent in full.

              The overturn of DC's gun-control bill was a significant part of the right-wing judicial agenda, the same juggernaut that helped George Bush get elected (in Bush v Gore), and that has denied statehood to the District of Columbia (largely for GOP partisan reasons).

              It's hard to believe how much people forget in just 5.5 years, and how effective the right-wing has been in shifting the discourse. (Apparently, even here on DailyKos).

              "Arguably better"? Arguably, not so much.

              •  Did you misread? (0+ / 0-)

                You seem confused about what I wrote.

                My comment refers to the new laws passed in 2009 and later, and to the new litigation challenging their other old laws and the new laws. The other paragraphs are a paraphrased list of what was upheld by the DC Circuit Court of Appeals, in 2011.

                DC Circuit Court of Appeals, Heller v. DC, 2011
                No. 10–7036. Argued Nov. 15, 2010. -- Decided Oct. 04, 2011.
                (yes it is the same Mr. Heller, but this is a different case than Heller 2008)

                [...] In June 2008 the Supreme Court held the District of Columbia laws restricting the possession of firearms in one's home violated the Second Amendment right of individuals to keep and bear arms. See District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 128 S.Ct. 2783, 171 L.Ed.2d 637. In the wake of that decision, the District adopted the Firearms Registration Amendment Act of 2008(FRA), D.C. Law 17–372, which amended the Firearms Control Regulations Act of 1975, D.C. Law 1–85. The plaintiffs in the present case challenge, both facially and as applied to them, the provisions of the District's gun laws, new and old, requiring the registration of firearms and prohibiting both the registration of “assault weapons” and the possession of magazines with a capacity of more than ten rounds of ammunition. The plaintiffs argue those provisions (1) are not within the District's congressionally delegated legislative authority or, if they are, then they (2) violate the Second Amendment.

                The district court granted summary judgment for the District and the plaintiffs appealed. We hold the District had the authority under D.C. law to promulgate the challenged gun laws, and we uphold as constitutional the prohibitions of assault weapons and of large-capacity magazines and some of the registration requirements. We remand the other registration requirements to the district court for further proceedings because the record is insufficient to inform our resolution of the important constitutional issues presented.

                "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                by LilithGardener on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 01:18:43 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Are you deliberately obfuscating? (0+ / 0-)

                  This thread began with my comment:

                  Repeal (or amendment) of the 2nd Amendment could [more easily] permit different states and cities to enact [even more] different [gun] regulations -- a "states' rights approach" is one possibility.
                  (Brackets added for clarification to advance the discussion.)

                  I stand by that statement. Do you agree with it, also?

                  •  I don't know (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sharon Wraight

                    Your question is straightforward, and was clear the first time  you asked it. I don't accept your premise as a given, so I have no opinion on your question.

                    FTR I'm relatively new to the topic of gun law and haven't thought about the 2A much. So my current answer is, simply  I don't know. I'm focused on understanding current law, and what is possible already, e,g changes at the state level, through better enforcement of existing law, and public education, public health, etc. all on the post-Heller "scaffold."

                    Your time horizon is focused on the 7th generation. I'm focused on the current decade or so.

                    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                    by LilithGardener on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 03:46:02 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Pls let me clarify "working out some wrinkles" (0+ / 0-)

                Ex 1. The new law includes safety training, 1hour of range time, and proficiency testing. Initially, their approved list of trainers were all outside DC. Now, they have some trainng and range options available within the district. That was a wrinkle, IMO.

                Ex 2. A delay in their microstamping law from 2014 to 2016, (the technology is still in R&D and is not yet commercially available.) If/when the technology matures DC will be one of the first jurisdictions to implement it. That delay is a wrinkle,  IMO.

                Hope that helps.

                "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                by LilithGardener on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 01:33:27 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Guns are certainly part of the story (4+ / 0-)

    …but USians have entered an massive epidemic of "kill your lover, wife, children and the family dog -- all at the same time craze." It's been going crazy in the past six months or so.

    I follow the murder-suicide beat. This is one of those.

    Remember, the overwhelming number of murders in the US are committed by someone the victim knows very well, indeed.

    No one else in the Mall was in danger.

  •  White affluent suburbs shouldn't have to (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pluto, politicalceci, a2nite

    face a reality that millions of us face every day, right?!

    Columbia, Maryland (MD) Zip Code Map - Locations, Demographics

    Median real estate property taxes paid for housing units with mortgages in 2011: $6,641 (1.0%)
    Median real estate property taxes paid for housing units with no mortgage in 2011: $6,200 (0.9%)

    Estimated median house/condo value in 2011: $695,000
    Estimated median household income in 2011: $181,204
    Median monthly owner costs for units with a mortgage: $3,537
    Median monthly owner costs for units without a mortgage: $1,001

    Median gross rent in 2011: $2,001
    Median price asked for vacant for-sale houses and condos in 2011: $583,636

    Unemployment rate 3.2%

    The "median household income" IS double the national average.
                                                  Columbia    National
    Median Household Income:     $94,647    $44,512
    Where I live, in Buffalo, New York, our average income is $29,158.  Median house value:  $81,084  OUR Unemployment rate is 10.4%!

    Then check out our crime rates!

    Violent crime rate in 2011

    Buffalo:    666.4
    U.S. Average:    213.6

    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

    by gerrilea on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 09:56:38 PM PST

    •  Meh. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea, jakewaters

      It reads just like the Bible:

      The overwhelming majority of deliberate murders in the US are about sex, or the offspring of sex, or testosterone/penis envy.

      Or sibling rivalry.

      Last week one set of brothers murder each other over a peanut butter sandwich. The other set over the last can of Pepsie.

      Life is cheapened in a nation that condones state-sanctioned murder.

      One can expect no less  in such a nation, and disappointment over this reality is harming oneself. Especially in the case of voters.

    •  Columbia is mostly affluent but it is racially (7+ / 0-)

      diverse, not white.  

      And not everyone here is affluent.  Rouse wanted all income levels to live here.  He put subsidized housing right next to more expensive homes.  The idea was to have this community economically diverse.  

      However, over time this is one of Rouse's goals that has not succeeded in practice.

      My point is not that affluent areas are exempt, but that people in this country need to wake up to the fact that this type of gun violence can happen anywhere.  It is not limited to poor urban areas.  

      If it can happen in Columbia, it can happen anywhere.  

      •  Really??? 66% white is still 66% white. (0+ / 0-)

        http://columbiamd.areaconnect.com/...

        My city of Buffalo:

        http://www.areavibes.com/...

        54% white, 37% African American.

        As for this:

        If it can happen in Columbia, it can happen anywhere.
        Sorry, but this is truly offensive on many levels.  It's been happening for a very long time, all across this nation, just not in your elite neighborhood.

        The outrage you have is understandable, honest, but since it's finally happened to you is when you decide to say something?

        Grrrrrrrrr.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 11:24:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are wrong. I have written many diaries about (5+ / 0-)

          guns before this.  In fact, guns are my second my frequent tag.  

        •  Yes, not sure of the statistics (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          night cat, Glen The Plumber, gerrilea

          but, I think that gun violence, gun deaths are most prevalent among the poor.  I googled once and saw one study that agreed with this position. Not sure if anyone here has done a diary about that.

          We as a nation only really get fired up about the issue when "normal" people are the victims.

          I think it isn't that liberals don't care. We assume that if only we eliminate poverty or the war or drugs all that gun violence will disappear. And it is probably true that it would be reduced by those things. But, how's that going for us? Meanwhile, people die everyday from gun violence.

          And, sadly, maybe the thinking is if you live in an area where you have an expectation that your child might be killed by a gun, when it happens, your grief is somehow less painful?

          •  Agreed and the final question, no. (0+ / 0-)

            Death is not less painful for most of us.  I'm not even arguing such a thing.  The diarist wants me to have sympathy for them (not sure of the gender of said).  I cannot.  

            I do have empathy for the fact they know the area and shopped there.  I drive by the Toys R Us Store where the Manager was killed this past year, EVERYDAY. Hell, I could walk to it in less than 10 minutes from my house!

            This isn't a game, it's a reality of life.

            And please understand I have compassion for the survivors of this tragedy.

            Sympathy vs. Empathy vs. Compassion

            My compassion makes me ask these questions every time I read/hear/see/experience these things:

            What have we done wrong?
            Why do we keep creating these violent citizens?
            When will we do something to help them before they act?

            The only answer from our side is: GUN CONTROL!

            How the heck is that going to help our fellow Americans that need it the most???  We need to stop criminalizing everything and help each other once again!

            Not one piece of legislation has bee passed that will stop the despair the majority of us feel.  We've wasted an entire year since Sandy Hook bickering and fighting and being divided.

            We could have done so many things, like ending the racist drug war, raising the minimum wage nationally to $15 an hour, provided universal mental health services for all, released all non-violent drug offenders, giving them living wage jobs to help rebuild our failing infrastructure and with it, the American Dream.

            Nope, we argued over gun control while thousands still die from the 30+ yrs of Reagan's "trickle down theories".

            We need to move this conversation forward, the status quo must end!

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 02:23:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My question was not aimed at you. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener

              It was just a supposition as to why we as a country don't have the same reaction when there is killing in poor urban areas or poor rural areas. If it even makes national news, it doesn't have the same impact on us as a nation.

              No matter where it happens the victims deserve sympathy and compassion and as human beings, we should feel empathy.

              I don't think that gun control is the only answer from our side. You seem to be saying that we shouldn't do anything about the proliferation of guns in this country until we solve all the other problems. And, yes. I believe if we solve those problems a lot of gun violence might be reduced. But, I don't think anybody is saying we need to focus all our energy on guns.

              You say "we could have done so many things...". Fighting to reduce gun violence is not what has kept those things from happening. Thousands die from bad policies and that includes bad gun policy.

              •  Even if I personally believed gun control was (0+ / 0-)

                the magical answer...there's no chance in hell of it passing congress or the senate, at this time.

                Many of the restrictionists here have already admitted this. Instead of accepting reality and moving this nation forward, it's like a broken record, every day:

                -"Guns 'r evil".  -"How many must die for your right?",  -"Troll",  - "Stop repeating NRA/RW talking points",  - "You're full of shit!",  etc, etc, etc.

                As for your "bad gun policies", even if we could ban/restrict/remove firearms from this nation tomorrow, without ever addressing the person whom pulls the trigger, the violence will continue.  Our Vice President admitted the gun measures being proposed won't stop the gun violence.

                The British are now pushing an agenda to ban all knives longer that 15cm...Why?  Because they never addressed the social issues that are the driving force underpinning the violence in their society.

                Let's move this nation forward, gun control is a losing proposition and we can do better than emotionally react to the tragedy of life in these United States.  


                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 07:08:07 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  One of my few liberal relatives (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  once said to me that we should just not talk so much about the gay issue because it hurt us politically. Nothing ever changes if we just accept it.

                  You seem to be saying we should just accept gun deaths, not try to do anything,  until we fix all the underlying problems or that we can't work on gun violence at the same time as we work on the underlying issues.

                  I don't think the measures being proposed will stop all the gun violence either. I think they will help. But, what is really needed is an attitude change toward guns and gun ownership.  But, that attitude change will not come if we never talk about guns.

                  A few weeks ago there was a Kentucky state senator who "accidentally" discharged her gun in her office. Someone asked if she was the best Democrat we could get. Well, maybe. She is both pro-gun and pro-coal. I guess you are saying we can never discuss coal either since it is politically risky.

                  •  I've never held the position that we should just (0+ / 0-)

                    accept gun deaths, ever.

                    You know what I want?  

                    I want to wake up in a society where my fellow Americans don't feel the need to own a goddamn gun!  A society that teaches it children peaceful resolution of conflicts. Not how to be "the mindless worker of tomorrow'.  A society that is respectful once again. A society that holds the criminal element accountable for their crimes, not rewards it through the levers of our government!  

                    I want a government that will create the conditions of prosperity for all, not just the damn 1%! Where Americans die from old age, not from the polices created by our government that kills them for private profits and then blames an inanimate object!

                    I want a Democratic Party that will stop tilting at windmills to distract us from their betrayal of what we once stood for.  Equity under law, economic justice, the rule of law AND our constitution.  A damn piece of paper we once believed was written to protect and expand our rights, not take them away through some Orwellian double-speak.

                    Until we get enough votes in the House and Senate for any gun control. "reasonable" or not...we are left with things we have the power to fix, right this very minute.  When the brass titties were counted, gun control failed and it lost us seats in Colorado.  

                    We need to do something now!  We need to stop making excuses and blame everyone else including the NRA, the Republicans, or even me...We can do so much to reduce violence in this nation that won't take a constitutional amendment or destroy our party.

                    Even Bill Clinton knows this, it's nothing surprising or new.  

                    “You have the power to really democratize America,” Clinton said.

                    -cut-

                    “Do not be self-congratulatory about how brave you for being for this” gun control push, he said. “The only brave people are the people who are going to lose their jobs if they vote with you.”

                    We have less than 10 months now before the next elections...Let's move this conversation forward and pass universal mental health services, raise the minimum wage, end the racist drug war, decriminalize drugs and release all non-violent drug offenders, end the school-to-prison pipeline, teach our children non-violent resolution techniques, etc, etc, etc.

                    Let's do something to make a difference in everyone's lives, not just the elite suburbanites that are rarely, if ever effected by violence.

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 09:46:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  She's RKBA. (6+ / 0-)

        She's just trying to divert and minimize your outrage. Don't say anything bad about guns!

        You're gonna need a bigger boat.

        by Debby on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 11:38:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really, you've become a mind reader? (0+ / 0-)

          Where's the national attention when it happens every day in Chicago or LA? Or weekly in my own city of Buffalo?

          I have compassion for anyone having to face the reality I face every freaking day...

          Where was this moral outrage 3, 5, 10 yrs ago???  

          Silence is all we got.

          We must do something now, now that suburbanites are being effected???

          Pshaw!

          Living wage jobs, ending the racist drug war, ending the school to prison pipeline, fully funded mental health services... just to name a few items I've been pushing for years...HAD WE DONE any of these things...maybe our "great society" wouldn't be facing collapse today.

          This ain't about the gun...it never was.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 06:38:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It is now. (7+ / 0-)

            It is about the fact that we live in a violent society that is swimming in guns. And my post was about you demeaning another kossacks experience because rkba. And if we want to bandy about demographic ratios (which I don't see how that relates to the price of tea....), I've got you beat. The OP was talking about diversity as a positive in her post; you turned it into a negative in yours.

            You're gonna need a bigger boat.

            by Debby on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 06:53:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The reality I live in is far less "hospitable". (0+ / 0-)

              When there are claims that are not based on actual evidence, which I provided the demographic ratios to establish, then we lose sight of reality.

              The elitism is offense.

              As I've already pointed out, violence, including gun violence has gone down:

              Gun Rhetoric vs. Gun Facts

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 09:46:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  FALSE representation of the information at the (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jakewaters, Glen The Plumber

                link.

                Just stop, please.

                "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 11:27:45 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Really??? (0+ / 0-)
                  But studies haven’t been able to show a causal relationship — that the mere presence of guns, as opposed to other factors, caused the higher rates of gun violence.

                  -cut-

                  As Sorenson explained, scientists can’t conduct a random experiment. So, instead, researchers are left with statistical models, which are “very fragile,” says Charles F. Wellford, who was chair of the committees that authored a lengthy 2004 report on this topic by the National Research Council of the National Academies. These models are subject to what control variables researchers use. “Everyone knows there’s other things than guns that cause crime,” says Wellford, a professor in the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice at the University of Maryland. So these models become very complex and slight changes can cause very different results, he says.

                  -cut-

                  The CDC’s most current data show there were 11,078 homicides committed with guns in 2010 — or about 30 per day. The CDC data also show gun homicides have declined each year since 2007, falling from 12,791 in 2006 to 11,078 in 2010, even as the nation’s population grows.

                  U.S. Gun Violence: Murders Down, Suicides Up, CDC Reports
                  The report on gun violence from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that the overall gun-murder rate dropped by about 15 percent overall between 2006-2007 and 2009-2010 in a majority of the nation's 50 largest cities.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 01:30:22 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's easy - if you want to make gun violence (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    churchylafemme

                    appear as small as possible you can focus on murder.

                    To make that case you know you can cite/quote the Uniformed Crime Reports to "show" that gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters have fallen, along with the few categories of violent crime that the FBI collects and tracks over time.

                    But that's not what your link above says.

                    Not at all.

                    People are catching on to the common selective data citation tricks.

                    By your criteria justifiable homicides, e.g. George Zimmerman, don't count as gun violence. By your criteria the shootings of Jonathan Ferrell and Andy Lopez doesn't count as gun violence. By your criteria shootings don't count as gun violence. By your criteria domestic violence gun crime doesn't count as gun violence. By your criteria suicides don't count as gun violence.

                    By your criteria all the lost productivity from school and campus lock downs are just a walk in the park, because gun murder is down.

                    But that's not what the link above said. You misrepresented the information at that link.

                    Have a good night.

                    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                    by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 03:21:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Twist and turn, twist and turn.... (0+ / 0-)

                      I even provided a link from the Brady Campaign. You can spin this anyway you wish, just as they do...but their opinions do not change that simple fact you both wish to obfuscate.  I didn't regurgitate the propaganda and now you claim I'm misrepresenting the only facts that were actually presented?  Violence is going down, including gun violence.

                      As for suicides, we've already gone round for round on that topic and it's been made clear nobody wants to help those so desperate they wish to kill themselves. I've even provided evidence of how countries with no guns and those that have enacted your "reasonable gun control measures", have higher suicide rates than we do.

                      Don't you recall this thread?

                      It's time we restored "reality" to this community.  We cannot create or propose political policy initiatives that do not include these facts nor will doing anything to help those whom need it.

                      Your appeals to emotions are becoming less and less relevant in this discussion.


                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 08:56:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Sadly, the media doesn't care until it happens (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea, a2nite, LilithGardener

      in an affluent place. When the victims resemble the members of the most desirable target audience, that's when things get serious.

      As truly sad as I am about today's tragedy, I can't help but see the irony.

      "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

      by politicalceci on Sat Jan 25, 2014 at 10:43:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why make it us vs them? (unless I (3+ / 0-)

      misread your post, which is certainly possible.) I live in a rather horrible area of a crimson state, populated by gun-toting Republican bullies and their noxious offspring, and can still find room to feel for people who are living in much better circumstances.  Heading in to work in a bit, and I'll certainly see some car or other with the stick figure family represented by different sizes of guns, usually with a Nobama sticker and a confederate flag to boot.

      The very widespread nature of our out-of-contol gun violence is increasingly on display nation-wide. As horrible as it is that it's been ignored for so long and is STILL ignored when it happens where it's "expected," I don't think we should begrudge it getting attention that might help solve it. That said, rather than be cynical, I'll not speculate on whether this will do anything more than be the tiniest blip in increased talk of gun control OR on its effect on ammo sales.  

      •  ??? You accuse me of dividing us and then do (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shuruq

        exactly that???

        populated by gun-toting Republican bullies and their noxious offspring,
        ???

        I don't buy into this framing:

        our out-of-contol gun violence is increasingly on display nation-wide
        The propaganda of fear is being used to whip Americans into a frenzy.  

        I have a co-worker whose brother was shot, not too long ago...no media coverage, barely hit the newspaper here in Buffalo...But it happens on a regular basis here, so no story, right?

        And violent crimes have gone down decade after decade, including gun violence.  It's gone down so much so, that 99.7% of all gun owners never hurt or kill anyone, EVER.

        Gun Violence Is Down, But You Wouldn't Know From The News

        A survey released this week by the Pew Research Center says 56% of Americans believe gun crime is higher than it was 20 years ago. Only 12% know that it is lower and 26% are unsure. Asked about gun crime in "recent years," 39% say it's "about the same," the answer closest to the statistics.

        But a larger number, 45%, still think it is on the rise.

        How can the public be so wrong about a long-established trend?

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 06:50:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I seriously doubt that gun violence is down here (6+ / 0-)

          in central Florida, I'd venture it is up at least 2-3 times what it was even 10 years ago- but go figure, when the amount of guns and those carrying them have also gone up 2-3 times in the same time frame...
            We had another shooting just a few nights ago, a young woman walking down the street with her friend. Last night I heard a lot of gun fire and a few minutes later all of the sirens heading somewhere, I can only assume another shooting. About 9-10 days ago we had another gun homicide. Just prior to that one another shooting where the person lived. We are not Columbia, we are a town of just over 35,000.
            You have no idea of how bad it can be in a small town, if you'd like to see the future of guns and the result of them look no further than this area. Last Saturday evening I believe it was, three teen aged boys ran by my vehicle, two with guns drawn, one racking a round. It happened just after dropping my employee off and hearing about 12-15 gunshots. They ran into a park where a lot of kids were still out playing ball under the lights. On MLK Day more gun fire right as people were leaving the park where MLK celebration took place all day.
            It is out of hand and out of control here, period.
            The hospital that handles the most gun shot victims around here recently reported that 52% of those they are treating for gun shot injuries are 'accidental' shootings. Overall, central Florida is running at over 4 out of 10 being 'accidental'. Most amount of guns, most amount of carried concealed permits issued.
            No correlation there, none whatsoever...

          Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

          by teabaggerssuckbalz on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 07:54:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are correct about this though: (5+ / 0-)
            The propaganda of fear is being used to whip Americans into a frenzy.
             The NRA driven propaganda has caused a frenzy in the sales of guns.
              I actually read a freaking story in regular news about the new S & W .460.
              Since when did a gun manufacturers newest high power handgun become mainstream news? I can see this piece of crap becoming the latest Desert Eagle .50, those weak minded nutjobs thinking "I gotta have that"
              Viagra is a whole hell of a lot cheaper...

            Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

            by teabaggerssuckbalz on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 08:02:41 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Let's at least work with facts... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 10:02:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, facts: They are your friend... (5+ / 0-)

              4 in 10 in ER, hospital after being shot are gun-accident victims, Florida data show

              Four out of every 10 people who are rushed to a Florida hospital or emergency room with a nonfatal wound were shot by accident, according to hospital data collected by the Florida Agency for Health Care Administration and published by the Florida Department of Health
                It's a far bigger problem in Florida than elsewhere — double the national average the past three years — according to numbers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
                In Orange County, it's even worse: More than half of the people treated for nonfatal gunshot injuries last year were shot accidentally.
               At this rate I suppose the gunnies will off themselves, no intervention even needed, no new laws, just let them have their guns. They're showing the world that at least here they are total fucking idiots.
                And of course, The NRA tripe-facts lie...
              Marion Hammer, former president of the National Rifle Association and the group's chief lobbyist in Florida, said she was wary of the Florida numbers because gunshot victims sometimes lie about how they were hurt.
              http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...

              Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

              by teabaggerssuckbalz on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 12:31:44 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Another fact about Florida and guns: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Shuruq, LilithGardener
                Curtis Reeves
                (the popcorn killer)
                was a retired police officer, the very definition of a good guy. He may also prove to be unbalanced in a legally-applicable way, but that wouldn't have prevented him from getting a concealed carry permit in Florida. Since Florida grants concealed carry permits via its Department of Agriculture, rather than, say a criminal justice agency, the state cannot use the National Instant Criminal Background Check System to screen applicants. To put that another way, Florida simply doesn't have the federal background check required in every other state that grants concealed carry permits.
                The National Rifle Association likes to argue that criminals, or people intent on committing a crime, will obtain guns no matter what the law says. Among the 5,417 gun homicides in 2012 that the FBI assigns a circumstance to (3,438 are "unknown circumstances"), a mere 1,324 were committed in conjunction with another felony. Three times that (3,980) were committed by otherwise law-abiding citizens. Of that, over half (1,968) were the result of an argument that escalated fatally out of control.
                  To put it another way: otherwise unpremeditated murders, where people kill out of momentary rage, are the single most common type of gun homicide in America. More than gangland killings (822); more than murders committed during robberies (505) and drug deals (311) combined
                 

                Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

                by teabaggerssuckbalz on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 03:52:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That should be written up as a diary, tbsb (0+ / 0-)

                  A lot of people do not know that. Thanks! Bookmarked for research.

                  "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                  by LilithGardener on Mon Jan 27, 2014 at 11:57:31 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  The right to keep and bear arms is not (0+ / 0-)

                  a criminal offense:

                  Since Florida grants concealed carry permits via its Department of Agriculture, rather than, say a criminal justice agency,
                  Gun accidents versus gun crimes...now you want to move the goal posts even further...

                  What your link also states is that those "accidents" are not reliable because people lie when admitted to the hospital.

                  Data from hospitals, she said, may be unreliable. That was a criticism shared by others, including Dr. Jan Garavaglia, chief medical examiner for Orange and Osceola counties.
                  It also states:
                  Illinois, which also has tougher gun laws than Florida's, had a higher incidence of nonfatal-gunshot accidents that same year: 53 percent.
                  Making your theory about more gun control will reduce gun violence and or gun accidents...disingenuous and misleading.

                  Either way gun violence is down, EVEN IN FLORIDA.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Mon Jan 27, 2014 at 02:03:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Tell you what, whatever statistics you wish to (0+ / 0-)

                    cite do no and cannot reflect the reality I am seeing dead in my face with my own two eyes right here in my little ass central Florida town and the surrounding area. Hardly misleading when there have been to my knowledge 6 shootings and two murders with guns just since the 1st.
                      I have never seen three kids run in front of my vehicle with guns ever, no matter where I was but I saw it here weekend before last. On average 4-5 nights out of the week I here gunshots- it's not that I never heard gunshots here but never with the frequency with which I hear it now.
                       The chief medical examiner is an elected position here by the way, any politician wanting reelection these days has to pretty much fellate the NRA  regardless of their true feelings or those of their constituents regarding guns.
                       The contention that people lie about how they were shot, I'm betting more idiots that shoot themselves from their own ignorance and stupidity tend to lie and claim they were shot in some sort of criminal act than those who were indeed shot during some criminal act lie and claim that they shot them self.
                       I wonder if that even crossed "Dr. G's" mind when she made that dumbass statement. She plays a medical examiner well on tv but in real life...

                    Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

                    by teabaggerssuckbalz on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 02:02:36 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, and if they don't check for a criminal record (0+ / 0-)

                      to obtain a CCP, why even bother with checking them out when buying a gun? And to further that, why bother putting anyone though a check to purchase a gun when I, as a felon, can buy that same gun from the responsible law abiding gun owner when and if they decide to sell it- no check necessary?
                         We have guns in the house, Florida statute requires that they be locked up and out of any control from me. Well duh, don't you think that might just maybe, possibly be extended to apply to kids in a household with guns? Keep your guns away from me because I have a record but leave them laying around if kids are present?
                         See anything wrong with that logic? Nothing that needs changed?
                       

                      Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

                      by teabaggerssuckbalz on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 02:32:19 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Why yes, education can remedy most things... (0+ / 0-)

                        especially how to safely & securely store a firearm.

                        Here in NY whomever was applying for a CC would most likely not have gotten a regular permit if you lived with them, unfortunately.  They'd be denied a right because of your admitted criminal history.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Tue Jan 28, 2014 at 04:49:21 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Why would anyone applying for a CC need to (0+ / 0-)

                          disclose names of others occupying their home? Somehow that just doesn't ring true to me, sorry> why would it be the states business if anyone at all lived at the address of the applicant? And if that is indeed true then I find it bizarre that gun owners are willing to accept this blatant and obvious governmental intrusion, asking about other occupants but raise hell about their name being on any list such as a gun registry.
                             I note you didn't answer the question I asked regarding why it is screamed at full volume the importance of 'criminals'  being weeded out of the gun buying process via record checks but a responsible law abiding gun owner can turn right around and sell that very same weapon to me- no questions even need be asked other than whether I have the cash.
                            Nor did you answer why it is so important and legally mandated that if a "criminal" resides in the home of a gun owner that the gun be fully secured and locked away, out of any means of control or possession by said criminal but no legal issue about leaving a gun lat around for kids to get ahold of, no legal mandate it being locked away from a child whatsoever.

                          Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

                          by teabaggerssuckbalz on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 03:14:59 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I've sent a PM to a NY pistol permit holder, I (0+ / 0-)

                            could be wrong but I'm sure I saw it on an application form that you had to list all household members and testify that they were of good moral character.

                            There are so many regulations for gun ownership here in NYS they've written books on what you must know and do before you "may" get one.

                            Anyone claiming that guns are less regulated than cars is doesn't know what they're talking about...

                            Since I've never owned a firearm, I really don't know all the laws.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 05:04:28 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

          •  There is significant denial in evidence here, (5+ / 0-)

            unfortunately.

            I feel for you. Here in NYC I don't have to live with gun bullies sticking a gun in my face. It's must less stressful than where I lived earlier in my life, when the sound of gunfire at night was not rare. In that small city we didn't really have full freedom to go out and move about freely at night. All the shops closed up and everyone went home after about 8pm.

            You may find some evidence to back up your lived experience in these diaries below.

            Justifiable homicide is waaaaaaay up in Florida since they passed the Stand Your Ground law.
            Report on Stand Your Ground Laws Highlights Racial Disparities

            The Dream Defenders are a group of young Democratic activists working to register Dem Voters in Florida. They are also working to repeal Florida's SYG law and to end the school to prison pipeline.
            Dream Defenders: Stand Your Ground Laws - Trayvon's Law Part 2

            Three moms who live with the fall out of increased guns in Florida.
            Stand Your Ground Doesn't Work for Moms Like Sabrina, Beth and Marissa

            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

            by LilithGardener on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 11:42:49 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  You're right about me dividing and I'm sorry (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, gerrilea

          We've been having a very tough time down here in Georgia lately with our three autistic-spectrum kids and I didn't even see what I was doing. As a non-violent example, "President Cookies" (like animal cookies, but with all the presidents) had to be banned from our kids' elementary school after the kids kept turning any President Obama cookie they found face down and grinding it into crumbs. I'm surrounded at work by bosses talking about stockpiling ammo, and then there are those gun family stickers I mentioned. Gun violence as a whole may be down, but the venom with which people talk about it (yes, on both sides but WAY more on the pro-guns-for-everyone side down here in the South) is not, and that's what scares me. I grew up in a home with guns and don't have a problem with it, provided there are reasonable restrictions such as universal background checks and people are held accountable for their actions.

          Again, I'm sorry. I shouldn't have referred to them as noxious, no matter what they do. It's learned behavior and not their fault.

          •  Thank you for being honest...but they banned (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Shuruq

            cookies? Ughhhhhh.

            It's clear we're still teaching our young that violence is acceptable...we're never going to evolve and it seems clear devolution is occurring right before our eyes.

            Good luck with the children and blessings to you all.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Mon Jan 27, 2014 at 01:13:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  I live near Columbia (9+ / 0-)

    I've gone to that mall quite a few times.  Strange - the first place I found out about the shooting was the BBC online.  You mean .....Columbia Maryland?  You mean the place I just drove by, yesterday?  Damn.

    I guess I'll just stick to buying things, and watching movies on-line, rather than going out.  Much safer, unless the UPS guy starts carrying a gun too.

  •  Sadly, I feel your pain (5+ / 0-)

    ever since April 9, 2009.

    https://www.google.com/...

    And still we have only a half-hearted change in gun control here in NYS.

    "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

    by NancyWH on Sun Jan 26, 2014 at 07:31:30 AM PST

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