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Fishing lure
You're looking for a job like millions of people these days and check all the big boards. Viola, you see a position advertised that fits your qualifications like a glove with a local company you may know! Maybe you take the time to fill out the laborious application, send it on its way confident that, finally, you might be in the running. But hours turn into days, a week goes by, and you don't hear a peep. Wondering if the position has already been filled, you check the board again and discover to your surprise the job is still listed.

Over time as you navigate other sites and other geographic regions, you see what looks like the same job with same company, the ad never goes away, but you get no response at all, queries go unanswered, or at best you get a form email thanking you for the interest stating the company has gone with candidates who better fit their needs. What in the heck is going on here? Simple, the company is legit, but the job listed was a 100 percent bona-fide fake intentionally put up by that firm.

Follow below and we'll discuss why companies do this and how the simple, good faith act of applying for it could screw you up in a bunch of different ways.

.

Everyone knows or should know by now that job boards are riddled with scams. There are listing posted by disreputable companies, a typical example being what looks like an ad for employment that turns into a pitch for online courses or a sales "kit" that costs you money out of pocket. But there's a new scam these days, one that's especially insidious, because not only might cost you time and money, it can cost you a job and it's being perpetrated by real companies with, at least for now, a good reputation.

Fake jobs can be classified into three broad groups of increasing sleaziness. The first is a company that hires directly may have some extra money in their budget for recruiting and they have to spend it in a way that will survive an internal audit. So, even though they don't currently need more people on the help desk or manning customer service, they will put an ad up to generate man hours processing the incoming applications and be able to justify it if questioned saying they're filling their database with potential recruits when the positions do become available. Head-hunters can make the same argument, they don't need anyone now, but they might in the future and putting up a fake ad means more resumes in their database, which in turn can be converted into more money in the bank.

There's always the chance that out of the hundreds or thousands of resumes sent in, there will be a few with qualifications in a field that is in high demand. It's the baited hook strategy. One of the comically tragic downsides of accidentally ending up in a head-hunter database is you may have just inadvertently disqualified yourself from consideration at companies that have a lingering contract with that employment agency. Simply by being in the agency's database knocks you out of the running if that company is trying to hire directly. And once you're in, getting out of that database is like trying get off the no-fly list.

The second motive is downright seedy. A company might put up a fake ad to harvest contact information. You do all the work for them! You fill in your full name, your phone number often including a cell, and you give them your email and snail mail address including ZIP code, all conveniently entered into discrete, marked fields. That's a great way to build a detailed database right down to your education and interests, one that can be sold to anyone, cold callers for all kinds of companies, a donation plea for a college or charity, a political campaign sorted by institution and ZIP, even a news site that wants to send out targeted mass emails with links to generate page views. I can't say for a fact, but I'm pretty sure a couple of virtual right-wing rags got me that way. And it worked, I've clicked on some links and read some of the articles.

As bad as that is, the last one is the sleaziest of all: full-blown identity theft and fishing scams. A crook can put up a fake site that looks a lot like the company they're pretending to be and slam you to that site with an ad. Unless you're familiar with the company's site, how would you distinguish it? Responding could result in the classic money transfer scam, but thieves have become way more sophisticated since the days of "Dear Sir or Madame." They may set up a fake skills test, send you a congratulatory email that you've been hired, request verification documents like SSN card and photo ID, and even trick you into filling out what looks like a direct deposit form giving away your bank account and routing numbers.

Most job boards do what they can to weed the worst of the scams out, but like every business, the low paying departments are understaffed and overworked. It's easy for a persistent crook to figure out a way to get through.

There are two factors that make this possible. The Great Recession has created millions of new ideal victims: once middle-class, educated workers who still have some credit left to their name and some residual cash left over in their dwindling bank accounts. Second, everything is now done online. Folks who haven't had to apply for a job recently really don't get how restrictive that process has become.

I saw an afternoon talk show the other day where the sanctimonious host lectured a frustrated job seeker who pointed this out: "Maaaybe it's time to get seeeerious about this and think outside the box: after you fill out the application online why not stop by the company to introduce yourself and add that personal touch?" As if in all the brainstorming done by millions of desperate people over the past four years, no one has ever thought of trying that! The whole reason it's all done online now is because they Do Not want people showing up uninvited. And if you do it anyway, you'll be lucky to get far enough along to creep out a receptionist and generate a call to company security or local police.

Crooks will be crooks, there's not much that can be done about that. But there's no reason why legit companies should be allowed to put up fake job ads to bolster their databases and sell lead lists. It's terrible for job-seekers,  which is bad for the economy and bad for business. But until there are real, enforced penalties, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:00 AM PST.

Also republished by Unemployment Chronicles.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Hard to enforce (73+ / 0-)

    Do you require any company that posts a job to actually hire someone? Seems like a recipe for a lot of other problems. I doubt that anyone can do anything realistic about your Scenario 1. Companies are allowed to change their minds, hire internal candidates, whatever.

    Scenarios 2 and 3 strike me as actual fraud, however, and enterprising law enforcement might be able to make hay out of it.

    Alternatively, a simple reform would require that information stored by employers for recruitment purposes must not be used for other non-recruitment purposes. Again, addresses 2 and 3, not so much 1.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:10:14 AM PST

    •  Identity Theft is a common problem. (29+ / 0-)

      Here in NJ we had employees of a major company use the HR Department to obtain all the information on job applications, including Social Security number.

      Be careful....

      "I hesitate to agree with Ted Nugent...."

      by waterstreet2013 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:13:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not really (17+ / 0-)

      Govt regulators can probably target companies that show ongoing patterns of this behavior. The should encourage consumers to report it then follow up. What if these companies are keeping ghost employees on the books for some nefarious reason?

      Its not sexy or glamorous investgative work, but its worth doing.

      Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

      by Betty Pinson on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:43:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pardon my ignorance, but what government regulator (5+ / 0-)

        s are you speaking of?

        I do not know of any federal, state, or local entity that has the job you describe.

        If we are talking identity theft that is one thing. The law has been broken, but advertising for a position that may  become available for the right candidate isn't illegal. If you happen to add to your database in the process no law has been broken.

        I wish there was a "plays well with others" statute that would make grey hats play nice, but I don't think it exists.

        I apologize if my question seems critical, it is not my intent.

        I have done a lot of hiring and recruiting in years gone by and placing an ad and not hiring someone was never on any ones list if concerns.
        It was common to post an ad based on the assumption that the position would be funded in the upcoming hiring budget (there is always an upcoming budget or adjustment to the current budget in process).
        Sometimes the position was funded and we were able to hire sometimes not.
        Worse still is that even after you think you are ready to hire an off financial quarter could freeze all hiring or worse trigger a reduction in force (Layoff).

        I do not approve of the trollish behavior that the diarist describes. I just don't see a way to influence the behavior. Once again Corporations win at the expense of "We the People".

         bring me up to date if you can.

        Thx

        Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire

        by leftover on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 04:32:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Also (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sparhawk, JerryNA, ColoTim, Lonesome Jeff

          re: the diarist's assertion that once you are in a headhunter's database that has a relationship with a certain company you're barred from applying there?  I have never ever heard of an instance like this and it doesn't make any sense.

          However this might be where confusion lies.  If a headhunter has represented directly to one of their client companies, then the company owes the headhunter a fee if they hire a candidate within 6 months to one year.  

          •  Common Practice (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ColoTim, bryduck, cjsm, beav, Lonesome Jeff

            This is almost always included in the headhunters contract. The purpose is to prevent the corp from ripping off the headhunter. Otherwise the corp could go through candidates from the headhunter and then "reject" all of them. Later they go and hire one of them direct, thereby avoiding the headhunters fee. And, yes, I have personally run across this.

            •  Then what's to stop a headhunter from simply (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Betty Pinson

              scraping everyone on Linked In into their database?  What company in its right mind would hire a headhunter agency that uses phishing techniques on job sites to screen for positions?  Thus it seems that aspect of the headhunter contract provisions is simply too flimsy to be legally enforceable.

              •  linked in doesn't really supply a resume function (0+ / 0-)

                I mean you can copy and paste it I guess but most people really have more of a profile... also you have no contact information via linkedin for the person... at some point the company if they want to interview them does require a phone number email address etc....

                Also most companies are going to immediately ask any candidate their relationship with a recruiter and if there is something rotten going on it will be ferreted it out quickly.  

            •  In some cases the opposite is also in place (0+ / 0-)

              The agency you have an agreement with claims their fee despite no involvement whatsoever. It's never happened to me personally,  but it has happened to a good friend twice who couldn't get off their books either.

        •  DOL, DOJ, IRS (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RiveroftheWest

          to name a few. Its sad that government regulation and worker protection have fallen by the wayside so drastically that average citizens don't realize those departments and laws even exist.

          Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

          by Betty Pinson on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 06:42:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Welcome to what's been going on in the UK! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RiveroftheWest

        The British government introduced a Website called Universal Jobmatch, which is "powered by" Monster. At first it was "voluntary" to use it, now it's mandatory to sign up. In fact, workers at the DWP pressurise jobseekers to give them access to their account. If you're receiving JSA (unemployment), you are required to apply for a certain number of jobs per day. Although allowing the DWP to check your activity directly on the Website isn't legally mandated (you can bring in printed screen shots, cover letters sent etc. instead), most people don't know that and go ahead with allowing it.
        Now, I'm all for insisiting that folks receiving JSA are actually looking for work, but it's pretty tough in market where there are far, far fewer jobs on offer than job-seekers, and a poor match between the skills in demand and the skills of unemployed Brits, to tell people they should be applying for jobs every single day--which is a fairly typical direction (some are told to apply for mutiple jobs daily...).
        And Universal Jobmatch is, well, utter crap. It's filled with fraudulent listings, phishing scams, "work from home" or sales scams that aren't actually jobs, sex-industry and other illegal "jobs," and that's before you get to the zero-hours contract jobs--which is you take one, will lose you your JSA even though you have no guaranteed work or income!
        Universal Jobmatch "matches" your CV details with jobs, which you are then required to apply for. This link includes personal stories in the comments from people explaining just how inappropriate these matches are: http://infoism.co.uk/...
        The whole thing seems to have been designed as a mechanism to get personal details for cold-call sales and phishing scams... because I've yet to hear of anyone getting a job through the site!

        Political Compass says: -8.88, -8.67
        "We never sold out cos no one would buy."--J Neo Marvin

        by expatyank on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 01:22:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Those on Unemployment (10+ / 0-)

      Once could depend on the Employment offices listings, didn't mean you would be hired, as those listings were actually looking to fill positions and were a first stop for many employers looking for experience or cross over experience and not quick turn over applicants off the street, just a body!!

      "If military action is worth our troops' blood, it should be worth our treasure, too; not just in the abstract, but in the form of a specific ante by every American." -Andrew Rosenthal 10 Feb. 2013

      by jimstaro on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:04:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wader, dinotrac, Egalitare, Rosebuddear

        Should have added to above, they knew the applicant didn't get fired or quit, and depend on a so called resume leaving same off of!!

        "If military action is worth our troops' blood, it should be worth our treasure, too; not just in the abstract, but in the form of a specific ante by every American." -Andrew Rosenthal 10 Feb. 2013

        by jimstaro on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:06:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  What about this glut of insurance companies (7+ / 0-)

        that all seem to be real businesses peddling life insurance, and they are probably hiring because as I've learned, their turnover is massive? Since I listed with the state jobs site, which is really just hooked into Monster.com, all I've gotten are emails and calls inviting me to come to an "orientation" or "information meeting" or in some cases, yes, to apply online. One of them was locally based and I looked them up. They seem legit and even got some good press. It seems like the business isn't the problem, but the profligate hiring process is. My guess is they hire everyone who seems moderately functional and expects 90% of the to wash out. It reminds me of the door-to-door magazine sales rackets that abounded when I was in college.

        There's nothing in my resume that should make any company think I am qualified to do sales. I've had zero experience in that area.

        Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

        by anastasia p on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:50:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I can think of one way to do it. (12+ / 0-)

      Absolutely prohibit - no exceptions - any sale of the information given by job applicants, as well as any use for any other purpose but employment.

      That puts the onus on them. They won't be able to piously fling their hands into the air and say, "Wasn't me, can't prove I did it!"

      "Violence never requires translation, but it often causes deafness." - Bareesh the Hutt.

      by Australian2 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:41:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Job boards depend on users to help (7+ / 0-)

      It seems that Career builder has at least their share of fraudulent posting. Most are easy to discern: the good news you've been hired, ballpark $70K, you need to have a checking account, as would any good check mule. It seems to me that it's not like they don't care at all.

      Dice & monster have similar pages I remember seeing but don't have the links handy.

      There's a rule: just because there's a blank on a form on the internet, you don't need to fill it out.

      We are vulnerable because of the lopsided hiring power structure in the hiring process, and there are way too few clearcut rules on the limits of what you can ask an applicant.

      •  What else is "lopsided" (8+ / 0-)

        .. is capital distribution.

        The rise in giant corporations running everything from burger joints to car dealerships to banks and the dismembering of local businesses opened a giant hole for unscrupulous people to take advantage of desperate people.

        Dear future generations: Please accept our apologies, We were roaring drunk on petroleum -Kurt Vonnegut

        by Anthony Page aka SecondComing on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:39:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  There are good job posting sites (9+ / 0-)

        To date, the best out there are the following:

        Craigslist
        Dice
        Glassdoor
        Indeed
        Simply Hired

        I particularly like Indeed because it's more accurate and always lists posting date more effectively than other sites do.

        However, Craigslist is certainly questionable with certain job postings so a good chunk can be legitimate whereas others can be just straight out crap.  Being in the marketing industry myself, it always amazes me that even in the Bay Area, there are still people who are duped by these "entry-level marketing positions" which have absolutely NOTHING to do with marketing.  In fact, they require people to sacrifice a great deal of their energy and time to get $ for just commissions selling products like toner and going door to door to every business being aggressive.  This isn't entry-level marketing, it's entry level sales.

        That's why I always tell anyone looking to break into the marketing industry:  Be very cautious when reading a position that includes words "entry level."  The positions in marketing (whether the position focuses on CRM, e-mail or social media marketing) that are considered "entry-level" don't say those words in the title of the job posting but instead just mention "marketing coordinator," "marketing assistant," "marketing associate," etc.  It depends on the company and industry.

        •  good sites (4+ / 0-)

          I only use craigslist, indeed and linkedin to post positions.  I did use Dice when I formerly handled IT positions however.  

        •  Monster Had Most Junk Search Results (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rosebuddear, beav

          I did a matrix of several queries across several of the major sites, and Indeed  had the most meaningful results.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:14:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  SKIP THE JOB BOARDS: GO TO THE TOP (4+ / 0-)

            I’m going to recommend, that in addition to the job hunting you’re already doing, you do a specific type of job search .

            It’s a kind of mass market approach, that saves you time and energy (and ego-battering) by carpet bombing possible employers 50 or 100 at a time, so that you get to any possible job openings, before they’re even advertised.

            I used this over the last 40 years in my career in publishing, and done it for friends (including my brother) in fields as varied as retail and law.

            First, gather information on everywhere it would be possible for you to get the kind of job you want.

            Find the email (or snail mail) address of the person as high up the ladder as possible at the firm or business: as high as president or CEO, if possible.

            Even if President/CEO never reads your letter, it will be forwarded down by his assistant from that office, and will get more attention having come from that office on high, than if you had directed it to a lower functionary. The Great Man/Woman’s assistant may also know of job openings long before HR gets them, so you get there first before other applicants.

            This can be done by email, but if you’ve worked in high end jobs, you might want to send out real letters on nice bond paper, individually addressed.

            Once you've got 50 addresses (or more) compose a brief letter:

            Dear (Top Cat):

            I'm writing to you because you may be interested in my experience as (whatever work you want.)

            First paragraph, ONE sentence: Your top accomplishment in that field. (Make it an active sentence, but don’t over-explain: less is more.)

            Second paragraph, ONE brief sentence: your next best accomplishment in that field.

            Third paragraph, ONE brief sentence: Your next best accomplishment in that field.

            Final paragraph: I'd be happy to come in for a personal interview.

            Your name
            Phone Number
            Email address

            DO NOT INCLUDE A RESUME, if they want to know more, you want to encourage them to call you in for a personal interview.

            If you send out 50 or 100 letters at a time, it won’t matter if 45 or 92 of those businesses don’t need someone at that moment, because you’ll get the positive reinforcement of 5 or 3 or 8 who do need someone, without having to put in 50 different applications, and battle 50 others applying for the same job.

            If you get an interview, DON’T BRING YOUR RESUME, again, you want the more personal interaction of them talking to you about your experience.

            If you’re asked what you want for salary, ask in return, “What’s your budget range for this job?”

            If they name it, then tell them that you’re interested in the top of that range.

            If you can avoid telling them what you made on your last job, don’t give a figure.

            You might name a figure lower than they had in mind for this job, or higher. So they could either get you cheap, or not consider you as too expensive.

            I’ve usually gotten, or gotten for a friend, a job in a couple weeks by this method.

            But if, by chance, your first carpet bombing of 50 (or more) addresses doesn’t get a response, either rewrite your letter, gather more addresses, and/or resend the original letter again in a month’s or six week’s time – a job may have opened up by then in a firm that didn’t need someone before.

            (Often, no one remembers the applications on file, or previous letters or resumes, so a fresh reminder also may work wonders.)

            •  "Brief," but to the point (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rosebuddear, JerryNA
              First paragraph, ONE sentence: Your top accomplishment in that field. (Make it an active sentence, but don’t over-explain: less is more.)
              Being brief doesn't mean vague, bland or round-about, but specific in the most definitive way you can in a sentence that will be each paragraph.

              You can also name the company, if that name brand would excite an employer, or dedicate one sentence to your training or education, if that's applicable.

              Remember, this isn't a resume, but an appetizer letter, written in conversational English, that will entice an employer into calling you in for an interview, in order to learn more about you.

              •  If you're in IT, this is not the best strategy (0+ / 0-)

                I'm currently an IT contractor for a firm whose headquarters is in England.  They're in over 150 countries, including the US, but there is no way I could have hit the right person for this position by carpet-bombing local companies with my accomplishments.  Their presence in my home city does not include IT.

                For this job, I needed the "in" a recruiter had, and I'm darn glad they spotted my resume on Dice, my profile on LinkedIn, and gave me a call.  

                For an IT person, I would suggest the strategy of a strong resume on Dice, a complete profile on LinkedIn with as many of your field's buzzwords (keywords) in it as you can cram in, and as many people in your network as you can legitimately get (and say "yes" to recruiters -- one of them may have your next job).

                I used Glassdoor mainly to check out prospective employers on jobs that I was told about (by recruiters) or otherwise heard of.  I've worked in misery for money.  If I'm going to do it again, I want to know in advance.

                But -- I would never have looked in my currently employer's field for IT jobs, and would never have expected them to have something so completely tailored for what I do best.

                When you wage war on the public schools, you're attacking the mortar that holds the community together. You're not a Conservative, you're a vandal. -- Garrison Keillor

                by stormicats on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 07:01:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Monster's junk (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rosebuddear, spacecadet1

            It's what the state of Oho uses and I never should have posted my resume there. I'm still getting hammered with offers to sell life insurance.

            Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

            by anastasia p on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:53:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Do Your Homework, Use Your Contacts (0+ / 0-)

          If you see an attractive job posting, check to see if any of your contacts also work (or have worked) at the same firm.  Send them a note asking what their experience with being hired was, and if they know what process the company uses to interview and hire.

          This nets you two things:

          1) Intelligence into the hiring process (if it's legit).
          2) a possible 'inside line' where your contact can relay your info to the hiring manager instead of it falling into the pile of applications going to HR.

          The other thing to consider when submitting applications/resumes:  A lot of the bigger companies are using systems such as Taleo to 'prescreen' apps before a human ever sees them.  If your application or resume do not contain specific keywords relevant to the position, the system will likely file away the application ... in the bit bucket.  So, be sure and use the same 'buzzwords' in your cover letter and resume as are in the job posting... for no other reason than to get past the software.

    •  There was one other type you missed (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest

      Where large companies will advertise for high tech jobs in farming communities.
      This guarantees that the position is not filled, which is used for justification to hire an H1B foreign employee.
      That is a decades old game, largely in IT.

    •  Back in the 20th century, I applied for jobs at (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest

      state agencies and was told, at the beginning of a face to face interview after having traveled by bus to the interview that the job was already promised to as a promotion to someone already working in that office and state law required them to interview at least three candidates from outside that office before they could hire the person they wanted to promote.

  •  There's one more scam: (35+ / 0-)

    This one involves offering a person a "job" as an "executive assistant" or as an "associate manager" or some such official sounding title but what it actually is, is money laundering. The premise is that they send you "invoices" from "customers", you write the company a check or money order for the total amount of those "invoices" and then you are responsible for recouping your money, plus a small percentage directly from the (probably fictitious) customers. Most of these ads are in the office and clerical sections and they almost all lead back to mainland China. I discovered them during my extended, (28 months!), period of unemployment and they are an enormous waste of time. One other thing: if you do waste your time applying to them and put that on your unemployment benefits job search log, (if required), they are disallowed. That time doesn't even count toward your minimum number of weekly job applications. I often wonder how many desperate people have fallen for that and lost the very last of their savings to such people? There is no lower form of life....

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:12:16 AM PST

  •  Companies sometimes post ads to see if their own (57+ / 0-)

    employees are looking for work, and they may take retaliatory action if they get a resume or job application from their own employees.

    This was taught to me in the 1980's in a personnel management course.  I expect it still happens.

    Republicans are like alligators. All mouth and no ears.

    by Ohiodem1 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:16:04 AM PST

  •  I haven't had to look for a job (17+ / 0-)

    for quite a while, my current employer came to me and made an offer, seems job hunting has gotten much more complicated these days. Maybe this along with other things are part of the reason for long term unemplyment, and not the laziness republicans have been pushing.

    If you are not the lead dog, the view never changes.

    by RepresentUsPlease on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:20:56 AM PST

  •  Am I the only one that thinks the wonders of the (22+ / 0-)

    internet have limitations? While it may be "cost effective" for a company to solicit employees only by the web, it is neither secure nor professional (obviously my opinion).

    Let's go back to the good old days when you snail mailed a resume and all follow up was done by phone then personal interview. Seeing as how labor has almost zero rights, the employer should bear the responsibility of a process that protects the general public and the integrity of the market.

    I guess I am just old fashioned and believe a good work force is worth the investment of a proper and highly functioning HR department. Do we really need to be a country that skimps on everything?

    -7.5 -7.28, A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond.-Don Van Vliet

    by Blueslide on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:24:53 AM PST

    •  Trying Out For A Stand-Up Gig These Days? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Most Awesome Nana, Rosebuddear

      You forgot your marker on the comment.

      "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

      by PrahaPartizan on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:38:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I (27+ / 0-)

      saw Dr Phil gives this sanctimonious advice to a frustrated job seeker the othere day saying how impersonal and limiting online apps are: "Well, maybe it's time to get serious about this and think outside the box. Next tiiiime, why not stop byyyyyyy the office and introduce yourself after filling out the app?" The audience then dutifully applauded at Dr Phil's brilliance --- because no one has ever thought of that before. /sarc

      The reason you don't do that of course is you would creep at best creep a receptionist right out and more likely be escorted away by security or police. People who have not been in the job market in the last few years simply do not get how fundamentally it has changed.

    •  Sorry to inform you (9+ / 0-)

      but are a resource to be exploited and thrown away when used up.  We are all literally nothing more than parts in a corporate machine that will be replaced by the cheapest parts possible and thus we have the state the US is in now; we are the sum of our parts, all made overseas...

      If the government really wanted to do something about unemployment, they would make it that all employees and subcontractors were pulled from the American or local (in the case of states) job pool, do away with H1-B visas, fund schools properly (includes superfunding good students and punishing disruptive ones - see http://www.wpri.org/... ).  I am thinking my major issue with all of this is lack of personal responsibility; you know, that thing our parents and grandparents tried to teach us but that the lawyers taught us was not real? It is not your fault you killed those pedestrians but the alcohol that those other people forced down your throat? or the drugs they forced you to take?  It is not your fault that you gunned down those people, but the fault of those violent video games they forced you to play?  or all those twinkies you were forced to eat as a child, etc.?  

      Anyways, end of rant, maybe need to go back to my nice warm bed after some nice hot tea.  I really dislike colds, they make me grumpy(ier?)   :P

      Anyways, great comment, made me think  :)

      ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

      by geekydee on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:20:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeap (14+ / 0-)

        I've had two old friends who have died when they were no longer useful commodities. One was an IE, industrial engineer. Right up until the day he was escorted out of the building with no severance and told his healthcare would end the next day, it being the last day of the month, by armed security he was convinced and had told me many times why he was immune to lay off.

        He applied for anything and everything for more than three years. One day he was found dead in his bathroom by a constable following up on an eviction notice. CoD was complications of diabetes, complications that almost certainly could have been easily treated, but his blood sugar crashed, he passed out, his airway was shut off, and there was no one to render aid or call 911. He was only 49 years-old. As best we know he didn't know he had developed diabetes.  

        At the time of death his total assets were an overdrawn checking account and a ten year-old beat to shit pick up truck that didn't even cover the cost of cremation.

      •  I didn't get through that whole WPRI report but I (8+ / 0-)

        think that lowering class sizes would go a long way to addressing the issue of disruptive students. I think it's important to remember that school disciplinary measures often work like our criminal justice system in that the poor and non-white are often dealt with more harshly than other kids. That WPRI plan sounds like a recipe for excluding kids from the classroom and turning over their education to a "virtual" teacher, which I imagine would mean paying some private, for-profit entity for a computer-based program.

        I guess I tend to think most disruptive kids aren't bad kids but are troubled kids who need better tools to be successful in school. I realize it's not cheap to lower class sizes but it seems like when you're talking about kids it would probably provide a more effective and durable impact.

        According to Sourcewatch, Wisconsin Policy Research Institute is a conservative think tank with ties to ALEC.
        Wisconsin Policy Research Institute

    •  Agree, after filling out online applications (12+ / 0-)

      Companies have extensive online application processes that are positively torturous.

      You first need to set up an online account requiring yet another user ID and password to remember.

      They then send you through a multi-page online form with a strict timeout, requiring detailed obscure and irrelevant information about your background (do you have the phone number of the supervisor you worked for 20 years ago?  The street address of your high school?).

      Of course, within 24 hours you will get the email response rejecting your application.

    •  The web is a medium of junk (7+ / 0-)

      But it can be efficient and useful.  I actually ran into an entrepreneur last Friday in San Francisco at a networking event who appears to have a web tool that makes it easier for hiring managers and companies to provide feedback to candidates.  This typically is never provided as it takes too much time and hiring managers/companies consider it to be a nuisance.  

      However, this entrepreneur apparently figured out a way to make things easy and efficient for the hiring manager/company to provide feedback without wasting much time.  He says this web tool has been used in various European countries but particularly is useful for job seekers who are able to hear their feedback on why they didn't get the position so they know what mistakes they need to do to improve on it.

      Anyway, to answer your comment more directly:  There are plenty of people who still believe in follow ups being done via snail mail and phone and that still works.  It's like a more personal and effective way of letting your candidacy be heard.  

      •  Automate feedback (0+ / 0-)
        ``I actually ran into an entrepreneur last Friday in San Francisco at a networking event who appears to have a web tool that makes it easier for hiring managers and companies to provide feedback to candidates.  This typically is never provided as it takes too much time and hiring managers/companies consider it to be a nuisance.''

        The hiring manager getting involved in the feedback process would only happen at the tail end of the hiring process when s/he would write (or mail merge) a rejection letter. That shouldn't be all that onerous for a conscientious manager. What the vast majority of applicants would, I'm sure, like to see is an automated email -- which, IMHO as a developer/administrator, should not difficult to add to any HR applicant tracking software package -- listing the hurdles within the filtering software that applicant failed to clear. I, as would all applicants, like to see an automated response generated at each step of the process, good or bad: ``Sorry but your background is not...'' or ``Congratulations, you're resume is being reviewed by the hiring manager...''. How hard could that be?

        Hell, even a simple ``we're taking a pass on you'' response would be better than the black hole process job seekers encounter nowadays. I wonder if companies realize how bad that makes them look to potential employees? (Simple pessimistic answer: they don't care.)

    •  A highly functioning HR dept? (4+ / 0-)

      Is a rare animal indeed!   :)

      •  Yes I know (0+ / 0-)

        It's usually viewed as a money pit buy the masters of spreadsheets (HR=no revenue generation). I am sure they will fix that, maybe HR personnel can be sales reps for benefit companies - securing a kick back from insurance companies for creating another deduction line on your pay stub. It's only a matter of time.

        -7.5 -7.28, A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond.-Don Van Vliet

        by Blueslide on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 03:42:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm looking for a job in the Bay Area (20+ / 0-)

    I never, EVER, respond directly to a job posted on Monster, Craigslist, etc…  The only one I do respond to is Linkedin.  Monster and all of the others have so become spam/ID theft bait, it is pathetic.  

    I would highly recommend NOT using those other sites.  If you do, use with caution.

  •  While unemployed I was told over (21+ / 0-)

    and over I must sign up with all the job sites, Monster, Career Builders etc. What a waste of time. In two years I spoke with 4 people, was able to register with two temp agencies in person! What a wastenof time. All it did was help me fill out my form with Unemployment Dept. I found a job the old fashioned way, contact with people I know, and who know me.

    As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all.

    by SanFernandoValleyMom on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:30:30 AM PST

    •  Monster is a huge spam generator (9+ / 0-)

      Dice.com at least got me a few nibbles from recruiters. Still, it was a long, slow slog before any interviews happened. And some technical recruiters will disappear unexpectedly.

      And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

      by Pale Jenova on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:48:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, that's a myth (3+ / 0-)

      It amazes me that many in the business industry always refer people to job sites or recruiters.  I've yet to meet a lot of people who believe this is beneficial for them.  But for business industry professionals, they don't want to be dealing with job seekers and would rather be dealing with people who are in the business of effective networking, referrals, etc.  Job sites are not as efficient as they used to be, certainly not like in the pre-recession period.

      The best thing to do is the following:

      1)  Network and sign up for related events where you get to build contacts that ideally are useful for you.

      2)  Sign up for job alerts but don't apply on the job boards.  Go directly to LinkedIn and contact the people at the company there (but in an artful way) or be referred by a contact of yours that you know well who knows the people at the companies well.

      3)  Take recruiting companies with a grain of salt and research them but do NOT depend on them.  Recruiters are not your best friends and can work with you initially when you first register as a candidate but after a while, they are MIA or they decide you're not the best candidate to work with and care less that you have rent to pay or anything else that matters in the minds of job seekers.

      •  Recruiters are like real estate agents that... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rosebuddear

        are supposed to represent the seller, RIGHT?

        WRONG. (in this case the seller of services the job seeker).

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Randian Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of West Dakota!"

        by unclebucky on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 02:54:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  #2 & #3 are the reasons I have always been wary (20+ / 0-)

    of conducting business online, and I thought they were a legitimate fear for people choosing the ACA for healthcare. Even before the difficulties appeared I was very offended by being expected to give them all my info just to get a looksee over what they wanted me to register and sign in for.

    Meanwhile, I don't think that this is THE Answer:

    "Maaaybe it's time to get seeeerious about this and think outside the box: after you fill out the application online why not stop by the company to introduce yourself and add that personal touch?"
    because:
    As if in all the brainstorming done by millions of desperate people over the past four years, no one has ever thought of trying that! The whole reason it's all done online now is because they Do Not want people showing up uninvited. And if you do it anyway, you'll be lucky to get far enough along to creep out a receptionist and generate a call to company security or local police.
    Not to mention that if you are in Boston, applying online to something in Seattle, it just ain't that easy. All that said, however, there is a major problem going on in this area where Temp agencies have become the blockade to actually reaching anyone for any kind of personal interaction to see if anyone fits a job.
        So we had my husband, with 35 years of machining experience giving him the ability to do everything from trigonometry with a chart & slide rule and grind stuff to size by hand up through cad/cam etc. But the temp agencies see "machinist" and try to send him out for a $13/hr job an hour's commute away. Even when there are local opportunities for him above entry level to be found by end-running around the temp agency because he finally got frustrated and started marching into the offices.
        He met with reactions ranging from "No I won't take a resume" and being shown the door, to "No, we don't take resumes but gee don't you look familiar? Oh, I know you and you'd be great here. Let me take that anyway and make sure the boss sees it ASAP. Even if we don't have exactly it, he will want to see you." So now hubby is employed at a place where he seems to be appreciated and the only way he got it was by doing what the TeeVee person said. Sucks, but temp agencies are doing more harm than good around here, keeping wages down and people separated from management so no one even knows each other.

    We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

    by nuclear winter solstice on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:30:37 AM PST

  •  When I help people with online job applications... (17+ / 0-)

    ....for big companies, I have the feeling that it's just dropping into a big pool somewhere, never to be perused by an HR person. On the other hand, this one guy that I helped just did get a job he was looking for, so there is that. Not like when I was a teenager, when you could just go to the mall, go from store to store, fill out applications, and hand in a resume to an actual manager that you got to get in contact with. That seemed more useful.

  •  Sp? (Great diary, BTW...) (7+ / 0-)

    DT, are you addressing this diary to someone named Viola?

    Or did you mean to say "look there!" (literal translation) in French?

    As in voilà?

    Tipped and Rec'd.

    You meet them halfway with love, peace, and persuasion ~ And expect them to rise for the occasion...

    by paz3 on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:44:31 AM PST

  •  I'm never going to work again am I? (22+ / 0-)

    I probably get one goes-nowhere phone call or "sorry but we're not interested" email for every 40 jobs I apply to.  I haven't had an interview in a year.  I'm probably in dozens of headhunters databases by now.  I feel like crying.

    •  Keep at it (9+ / 0-)

      Stories like this are discouraging, no doubt.

      But there are real jobs out there and it is possible to get them.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:49:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's no lack of jobs. (27+ / 0-)

        I probably see a half dozen a week that I'm perfectly qualified for, at all levels ranging from almost entry level up to where I left off when I had my son, with ten years of experience and a couple of promotions behind me.  But nobody's interested in me.  Haven't worked since 2006?  Forget it, we need someone with more recent experience.  Try a temporary position to build your resume.  Then the company hiring temp says it's only a 2 month contract so they need someone who can step right in on day one -- the presumption being that I can't.  I offer to work for half of what I'm worth, I offer to commute 90 minutes daily, I apply for jobs miles below my skill levels as well as ones that would be more suitable, it doesn't matter.  I've worn every contact I have thin -- these mostly being my husband's since the company I worked for most recently and longest changed hands shortly after I left and turned out to be such a godawful place to work that everyone I knew there jumped ship and moved to positions miles away, too far for me.  I even tried handing off my resume in person a few years ago, then gave up after an unbroken string of thanks but no thanks.

        I had someone get back to me last week on an opening, got the "more recent experience" line and wonder of wonders also a suggestion that they would forward my resume to another area of the company that was looking to fill a temporary position that is pretty much the exact same thing I did most recently, only at a lower level of responsibility.  I could do that job in my sleep.  They were supposed to get back to me by Friday.  I was so excited.  Do you think I got a call?  Fuck no.  I am crying now.  I am so fucking sick of it.

        •  There (20+ / 0-)

          is definitely age discrimination sneaking into the hiring process, sometimes more overt than others.  The underlying problem isn't just bias or related issues, the real problem is 1) there remains about three job seekers for every job available, which means that every position advertised publicly gets deluged with applications, and 2) those with the power to improve it are doing everything they can to make matters worse in the cold-blooded hope that frustrated, desperate people will eventually turn savagely on the most visible portion of our government, aka the WH.

          •  I see age discrimination with my Union (7+ / 0-)

            all the time. The older people get laid off first. Were not as fast as the younger members ( I'm in const. ) I've got two more years be for I retire. Won't come soon enough.

          •  most definitely (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ladybug53, Rosebuddear, JerryNA

            look at the young people with little or no experience in management whatsoever, etc  :(
            But fear not, even China recognizes this:
            http://www.chinapost.com.tw/...
            S, that as China, what about the US?  Still looking but with the average age of retirement up to 61 (per a CNBC story) combined with the looming retirement of many baby boomers, the appearance is that there are "kids" ("get off my lawn" syndrome) running things.  There are whiz-kids out there, sure, and as has been proven, lots have more computer skills, but at what cost?  Have we removed the safeties and the lessons of the dot-com bust (~2000, or 13 years ago, about when these grads were 11 years old and had no idea what it even was)?  Are we doomed to blunder into an even more egregious situation due to a lack of experience?  Is there a reason most successful CEO's are over 50?

            Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

            ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

            by geekydee on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:35:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  That's a stretch (0+ / 0-)

            I seriously doubt most companies are hoping that if they just make things frustrating enough, people will turn on the president.

            Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

            by anastasia p on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 03:41:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  No sneaking, it's been pretty blatant for years (0+ / 0-)

            I see it a lot, especially in IT. "wanted JUNIOR highly experienced person. Must be university graduate". I find it a tad hilarious when the uni courses that teach the stuff they want mean at least 8 years in uni, and the level of experience is something they really will not have coming from the course (I've examined the syllabus, there's 8 hours to teach kids to be proficient at stuff I've been doing 20 years). It doesn't help here that anyone under 21 can be paid less, it's something I oppose on principle because if you're doing the same work you deserve the same pay, if it's a pay grade for experience that at least has some sense of equality, in that someone who has worked the job 5 years will be on a higher grade than an entry level worker.
            But nope juniors and immigrants are virtual slave workers in the end.

        •  I can relate Nancy (6+ / 0-)

          Recently I was offered an interview for a retail job, well below my experience level, but I was not chosen, after they met me in an interview that I thought was fairly easy and went well. I am in my mid 50's and the others in the group interviews were all much younger with one exception (a man applying for a stock job, he said he was a social worker in the past). I was told there were just too many people applying for them to hire all who qualified. (well duh)

          Oh by the way, before I learned I was not chosen for this job I was asked to give up personal info, including my SS# for a background check. I asked for a copy of such to be sent to me as is my right here, but have yet to get it. I have no arrests or anything that would cause me to be rejected, but now I am fearful of who had access to my info and will be paying closer attention to my credit reports than usual

          Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. - Dalai Lama

          by kimoconnor on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:27:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Have a friend check your cover letter (8+ / 0-)

          After my last go-round with involuntary unemployment, my sister showed me how my cover letter looked desperate and depressed. Now, that was my mental state, but it was non-optimal to make that obvious even before they'd read my résumé!

          •  Most cover letters are way too long. (5+ / 0-)

            They try to summarize the résumé and then sell every one if your skills. Pick your best skill and explain in one paragraph why they need you.

            Imagine: you walk in the door. I tell you that you have 60 seconds. Why do I need you? Concentrate on what you can do for me.

            (Everyone who walks in that door is excited to work in X industry, loves their career, and would love to work for us. Of course your résumé is attached, and obviously you'll be available for an interview.  )

            Why YOU? For us? Talk fast. 60 seconds.

            Now write that down.

            That's your cover letter.

            © grover


            So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

            by grover on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 12:33:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Resumes have similar problems (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Rosebuddear, beav

              Don't use a lot of buzzwords and be sparing on the industry-insider jargon.

              Describe what you actually did, preferably to make or save money (in sharply decreasing order of preference).

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 03:21:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  The grass is no greener on the other side. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          unclebucky, Rosebuddear, JerryNA
          But nobody's interested in me.  Haven't worked since 2006?  Forget it, we need someone with more recent experience.  Try a temporary position to build your resume.  Then the company hiring temp says it's only a 2 month contract so they need someone who can step right in on day one -- the presumption being that I can't.
          In 2004, I left a dozen years of experience behind and got licensed in a different field.  Three years of making half what I had been later, in 2007 I went back to my original field.

          Quite literally the first question in every single job interview was "Why should we hire you when you have no current experience?".  Bald faced and straight forward and you better have an answer.

          Yeah. 2007.  Everyone remembers 2008 and 2009, right?  Nine months unemployed, working 6-month contracts when I could get them.

          First question in every single job interview?  "Why have you had 5 employers in the last 3 years?".  Snark back with "read the headlines, dude", and you are so fired.

          16 months later, I was named employee of the month.  Nearly five years of having it shoved in my face that nobody gives a damn how good you are.  Plenty of companies are willing to ignore a great candidate.

          It's hard, but you really can't take it personally.  It's a lottery, no more, no less.

          -7.75 -4.67

          "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

          There are no Christians in foxholes.

          by Odysseus on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 02:23:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Is there any way, any way at all, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JerryNA

          That you can do some work for a charity or a startup using your skills? I don't know what field you're in, but perhaps you can do some consulting work in your field for friends, family, or former colleagues. It wouldn't have to pay more than a token amount, but you could say that it was recent experience. The only problems would be, you would have to play absolutely hardball when they asked what you were making at your most recent job, flatly refusing to reveal it (which you're perfectly within your rights to do) -- "Sorry, the policy there is not to reveal salary information." And that your friends or colleagues would need to be able to provide you with a reference to back it up. The best would be if you could find a way to do what you do for a charity, because then it would be easier to deflect the questions about salary, the reference would be impeccable, and you can easily explain why you're looking for "other" work -- you've done your bit for charity and are looking to get back into the rat race.

          In short, think outside the box to fill that hole in your work experience. It's dreadful that companies don't want to hire someone who isn't employed, but treat it as a challenge to be solved instead of a brick wall that stops you cold.

          I know that probably seems hopelessly optimistic. Sorry I can't be of more help. Good luck!

          We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

          by dconrad on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 04:52:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The (14+ / 0-)

      recession will end eventually, they all do, and let's get real, this is like a depression for many of us despite how recessions are defined as beginning and ending. But if it doesn't end soon it won't do much good for someone who is in their 50s or early 60s.

      •  And by the time it does (23+ / 0-)

        I will have been out of work for over a decade and yes, close to 50 years old.  Fucking good luck to me.

        God dammit I'm sorry for swearing at everyone right now but I've been holding this in and trying to keep a cheery face for so long and I can't take it anymore.

        •  I'm right there with you. (12+ / 0-)

          45 in a few days, completely unemployed for 3 years, less than part time for the 3 before that, and even though I've gotten 2 degrees now in a new field, I've been unable to find anyone even willing to take me on as a freaking unpaid intern to give me the 1 year of experience minimum the market seems to demand for the new field.  Hundreds of job apps yielded 1 interview in the last seven months since graduating with the second degree, and nobody will even give me a hint as to what it is that's causing me to be ignored.

          •  I'm about to turn 57. Arthritis too bad to type (10+ / 0-)

            any more.  Deaf from wearing headphones for 30 years.  Thought I could be a hostess at a restaurant.  Oh wait. They're all 18 and gorgeous.  I'm volunteering at the animal shelter hoping to get first pick when they need to hire someone new to clean out cat boxes.

          •  And the only damn thing I did wrong (12+ / 0-)

            was decide to stay home with my kid for a few years at the beginning of a recession.

            I feel so damn useless.

            I got new certification, too -- spent several months studying for and passing the patent registration exam because my husband just KNEW it'd help my prospects.  He was wrong.  I knew he was wrong, but I needed a break and at least it was something different.  So now I get his patent-agent buddy constantly "helping" me by sending him job listings for which I am in no way remotely qualified.  So yeah.  Completely useless.

            Hey if I could move to Alexandria for a year or two maybe I could get hired as an examiner!  Never mind the seven year old and the husband.  God damn it.

            •  No, you're not useless (9+ / 0-)

              The process / lack of process made you feel that way.  Don't mean it's true.

            •  Thinking outside the box (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JerryNA

              Create your own niche market.

              Identify companies you would like to work for in your area.

              Contact a well known and reputable employment agency in your area. Provide your resume and speak to a real person. That person may not be familiar with your field, so supply all the buzzwords for them. Tell them why you would be a good fit for each company. Let them do the marketing but give them everything they need.

              If successful, you've made someone look like a hero. The hiring company is happy. You're happy.

              Caveat: That worked once for me and that was decades ago.

              Best of luck.

              I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

              by Just Bob on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 02:46:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I have only gotten honest feedback twice (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, Just Bob, Rosebuddear, JerryNA

            In over 25 job interviews in the past 4 years and these were for government jobs.  Go figure.   These were a federal and state government position where the hiring manager let me know I was beaten out by an internal candidate that accepted the position. If not for the internal candidate I probably would have been offered the job. The remainder was the boilerplate rejection letter or phone call saying they found someone who was a "better fit". I think they are afraid of the potential liability if they were to give real honest feedback, despite the fact I ask for it so I can make improvement for the next time I apply.

        •  in my late 50's (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RiveroftheWest

          I thought I might never find work again after I was terminated over a year ago from a job/company I hated. I consider myself lucky to have recently been hired for a part time job at lower pay than I was making. Lucky to have a job that pays a low wage and won't offer full time hours or health insurance!
           It may be the last thing you feel like doing, but if you aren't already involved in volunteer work please consider it! It shows a potential employer that you have the capability to show up for something that resembles work and may even help you connect with an employer.
           It's okay to swear about it... I would be lying if I said I didn't and don't still swear about the shitty way interviewers treat you and how employers pay the least amount they can but expect oh so much in return!
          Oh yeah, I also have 2 Masters degree and a student loan that will probably be with me for the rest of my life! Being highly over educated is worthless when the jobs aren't there!

      •  I'm not so sure... (9+ / 0-)

        ...that the US of A will come back in the same way. My deeply suspicious old soul says that we have screwed the pooch in ways that gladden Republican Insect Masters of industry and they are very glad. Wages are depressed, maybe permanently and jobs have been off-shored, blah-blah-blah.

        I have friends who are looking, 50 somethings who are, basically screwed. O-care is a big benefit for them but retraining, widening the search, etc. Screwed, I'm afraid. Hope DS is right and that this depression ends, but...

        What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

        by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:25:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It isn't a recession. It is the great theft. (18+ / 0-)

        Companies want working people with five years experience specific to the job.  Anything less is a problem.  

        If you are long term unemployed, you must deserve it.  If you have a skills gap, go away.  They refuse to train their own employees, and they expect government to pay for them to move to a state, stay in a state, and to hire and train the "country's" workforce.  This is why Bill Gates and Obama are peddling RTT.   Schools no longer nurture learning and educate children, they train workers for corporations.  The corporate welfare really needs to stop.  

        We worked with a large IT company.  We agreed to pay to train a group of dislocated workers with degrees who needed a "brush up" on their IT skills if the company would hire them to fill their alleged shortage of IT workers.  The company worked with the community college to write the training curriculum.  The company interviewed and selected the trainees to go into the class.   Out of the 25 who completed the course, the company hired three.   Then they criticize the underfunded and overly regulated job training programs of being ineffective.  

        I am of the firm opinion companies don't American workers unless they agree to work for nothing and the government incentivizes their hire.  The more companies can bellar about bad schools, untrained Americans, lousy government, the more H1B visas and government contracts they get.    We are being strip-mined.  The was no Great Recession.  There was only the Great Theft.

        What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

        by dkmich on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:35:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I HAVE (8+ / 0-)

          five years experience directly specific to much of what I apply to.  (Except the jobs that are only asking for 1 or 2 .. I'm overqualified for them!)  I'm an analytical chemist with a background in the pharmaceutical industry, years of specific, technical experience, a respectable work history, and a masters' degree.

          And I have stated outright both directly and indirectly when given the opportunity that I will work for peanuts.  My husband has a well-paying job and so we are not starving, I just want a goddamn job!

          Doesn't matter.  Nobody gives a fuck.

          •  Here is what is in demand.... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ladybug53, beav

            IT, engineers, and advanced manufacturing.  Manufacturing is looking for welders, CNC, and skilled trades, which is being blended into something called mechatronics.  

            Of the STEM studies ( Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics), all they want is technology and engineering.  If you will do anything and will work for peanuts, you might want to dumb down your resume.

            What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

            by dkmich on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:07:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is simply not true (8+ / 0-)

              My skills are in high demand in my area at this moment, the job listings are like I haven't seen ever before.  There's jobs everywhere around here, new listings every single day.  I still can't get a call.

              There's no way to dumb down your resume, what I am supposed to do, lie? and no reason to expect it'll help when the problem is my lack of recent employment at all.

              What does welding have to do with me?

              •  If there are jobs in your area and (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ladybug53, Rosebuddear

                you aren't getting interviews, the demand doesn't appear to be big enough to compensate for your long term unemployment.    

                Apparently your idea of take anything and mine are entirely different.  You don't need a master's to apply for a job at Walmart.

                In any event, good luck on your job search.

                What we need is a Democrat in the White House.

                by dkmich on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:54:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Sorry, I misunderstood. (5+ / 0-)

                  I mean work for peanuts in the sense that I'd be happy to be paid half of what the job's actually worth.  When there are so many openings in the field I'm actually qualified for and where I wouldn't need to misrepresent myself, wasting time on retail jobs I'd have to lie in order to sell myself for is just too exhausting a prospect.  Nor would it help me long term as far as the feedback I've received; they're looking for someone who can step in and operate an HPLC today, and working a cash register would not suffice.  If were desperate for money that'd be different, but I'm not, and so better those jobs go to someone who really needs them.

                  I would be willing to do day-labor sort of temp -- I've done that before -- but because of child care it's not practical to pick up something which by nature is so extremely short-notice and inconsistent.

              •  It really depends on industry (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Rosebuddear

                In marketing (which I work in), I can tell you it's a hard industry to start in but not a difficult one to get employment as depending on where you live in, it's got lots of opportunities.  All you need to do is build your skill sets (which can be done), brand yourself, emphasize your experience and you're fine.

                In-person communication at networking events can help but it has to be done right.  

              •  Is there a non-profit you can donate your time at? (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aitchdee, Odysseus, Rosebuddear, JerryNA

                The "concern"  often is that long-term unemployed people may not have the skills to get up and go to work every day (which is absolutely absurd. But I digress).

                If you can go donate 3-4 hours daily to a charity for 6 months, that might get you over that awful hump. You out it down in your Professional Experience section of your résumé as a current position.

                Now, you look employed.... sexy to recruiters.

                And you've helped out a deserving charity for 6 months as well.

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 12:40:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes they get funny ideas (0+ / 0-)

                  Here you're expected to do at least 4 job searches every week, that means make contact with an employer. That can mean a lot of effort to actually achieve including a lot of time on foot I replace footwear due to being worn out every 3-12 months.
                  Now you have 6 months of this, and then you have 6 months of what used to be called "Work for the Dole", it's now called "Work Experience". What this can mean is anything from working in aged care (yes I've been an events coordinator for 6 months), manual labour (I've literally built bridges, and laid railroad track, if I felt like dying from heat exhaustion I could go take pictures of them, the gate, and all my welding right now), I've been a school groundskeeper, I've worked major functions both on the floor and in the kitchen. Now if I list any of that in my resumé you'd think that would look good wouldn't you? But nope, there's such a stigma attached by the non-participants to the project it's an immediate black mark, worse than doing nothing for 10 years it's not viewed as "real" work.
                  Oh as part of that I also wound up working with Lifeline (suicide prevention), emptying their charity bins for a month (school was out so I got reassigned). It really doesn't help, nor did years of other charity work. Of course different places mean different opinions prevail but I wouldn't count on 6 months answering calls from depressed job searchers getting anyone a job right now.

              •  I have a few suggestions (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JerryNA

                that may seem like they are from way out in left field. The last time I did a job search I had a friend who helped me, and I was feeling pretty desperate and was willing to work for peanuts. And one of the ways he helped me ... was to convince me to ask for the going rate in my field.

                When you say, directly or indirectly, that you are willing to work for peanuts, you are sending a message that you're not worth what other people in your field are. They are also going to worry that once you get some fresh experience on your resume you're going to dump them for another company.

                Also, by asking for less money, you're getting yourself considered for positions that are beneath you. I know it probably sounds insanely counter-intuitive, but I think you might actually have a better chance if you asked for more money, instead of less. If anything, offer to trade base pay for other benefits, vacation time, etc. But don't price yourself below your value.

                Dumbing down your resume:

                I wouldn't do that, but I would tailor it for whatever positions you're targeting, and leaving some experience off your resume isn't lying. For example, I'm a computer programmer and I have (confession time) written COBOL in the past. But you won't find my COBOL experience on my resume. Why not? Because it isn't what I want to do in the future, and no employer who would hire me to do what I want to do would give a crap that I've written COBOL. In fact, it's even possible that an employer might see that and decide I'm not the candidate for them. Your resume doesn't have to include everything you've ever done. It's an advertisement to sell yourself to an employer, not an autobiography.

                We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

                by dconrad on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 05:36:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  A labor market depression (9+ / 0-)

        is the normal state of capitalism.

        What we had in the post-WWII era was an anomaly, that may not happen again in our lifetimes.

        There was a 19th century German economist who thought this all through.  Despite some truly abominable regimes misusing his name, he had some excellent conclusions about how capitalism works.

        •  Yes that was a topic in my high school Business (0+ / 0-)

          Studies, though he remained nameless there as well the concepts got floated including the "necessity" of unemployment as with an insufficient labour pool... yeah you know how that goes.

          Knowing the works of people like that and even Lev Tolstoy's later works leads to entertaining ideas about where they can stick their capitalism.

      •  You know what? (6+ / 0-)

        I think we should stop repeating the Recession or Great Recession meme, and call it what it really is.

        The THIRD GREAT DEPRESSION.

        1. Long Depression, an economic depression during 1873–96, known at the time as the Great Depression.

        2. THE Depression, or Great Depression, a severe economic depression during the 1930s, commonly referred to as simply the depression.

        3. Flinking Mess or the NEW and IMPROVED Great Depression...

        It's not likely to last as long as the Long Depression, but it's getting to be as long and as murky as THE Depression.

        Gddammit.

        Ugh. --UB.

        "Daddy, every time a bell rings, a Randian Libertaria­n picks up his Pan Am tickets for the Libertaria­n Paradise of West Dakota!"

        by unclebucky on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 03:13:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, you will. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Most Awesome Nana, Rosebuddear

      It will work out, you'll see.

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:06:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Another keep at it message (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, Rosebuddear, cai, JerryNA

      Just got a job after 3 1/2 years of searching, and 3 interviews, and I'm 59.  I felt like ripping trees out of the ground and looking down into the hole for a job.  The blind alleys and "recruiters" are the worst.  Go after jobs that have the company clearly listed.

      So, sorry, hon.  Just keep it up.  

      de fin able 1: able to be defined

      by paperscissors on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:15:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you haven't used this resource already (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rosebuddear

      I'd recommend getting the latest copy of "What Color is your Parachute" and giving it a try.  You can find it used for cheaper, too, but it's available in a 2014 version at online retailers.

      There's some good advice in there, and though the author and content have been around awhile, it get's refreshed frequently.

      The main thing about WCIYP is that it's written in an empowering way.  You can use it step by step, even when you are feeling discouraged, in fact, especially when you are feeling discouraged.

      If you have heard of cognitive behavioral theory, then this would be the job hunting / career change manual that most closely uses that approach.

      Worth it if you haven't tried it.

  •  Also Cut And Paste Job Descriptions (7+ / 0-)

    You'll see the exact same job description supposedly at different companies.  Is this just laziness or something worse?

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:45:38 AM PST

    •  Laziness (6+ / 0-)

      imo is the most likely, but it's a bit of a loaded term, the people tasked with placing those ads, assuming they are legit ads, are as understaffed and overworked as ppl in any other department.

    •  You think HR is staffed by hard-working, word- (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      beav, aitchdee, codairem, Rosebuddear

      smiths? Why work when you can cut-n-paste? Not working any more (for anyone else at least) but I was always deeply suspicious of the HR wizards. Not sure what they added to the pot in the tech world, at least.

      What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

      by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:27:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  HR is somewhat of a scam, imho. (0+ / 0-)

        Their sole function in the hiring process is to raise some bars for applicants so that their organization doesn't have to spend time interviewing everybody who applies. For example, a big HR job is to give the once-over to the apps to see if each person actually has the required elements of the job. (As if the actual interviewer couldn't do this him/herself.) The problem becomes, they aren't going to look beyond those hard-and-fast guidelines that were given to them by the organization. Job specs say all applicants must have 5 years of experience, but the applicant only has 4 1/2? Toss him/her, even if those 4 and 1/2 years were spent doing that job at the pinnacle of the profession. Brainless weeding out of the applicant pool is job #1 for HR departments.
        (Job #2 is preventing lawsuits--which wouldn't happen if their org's supervisors didn't break any laws in the first place, but I digress--or more accurately, laying the legal groundwork for an org's successful avoidance of culpability when they do get sued. Job #3 is firing people "successfully", meaning that it is done so that #2 is fulfilled.)
        I await the defense by HR pros; this is simply my experience of what HR people do, which is also in accord with my B-i-L's experience as a high-level HR director.

        "Lone catch of the moon, the roots of the sigh of an idea there will be the outcome may be why?"--from a spam diary entitled "The Vast World."

        by bryduck on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:06:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yeah, that whole "show up in person" thing (10+ / 0-)

    doesn't work.  Tried it (admittedly ten years ago, but I doubt things have changed) last time I was looking for employment.  Dropped in to a couple of companies offices, was told "HR doesn't meet with people, just fill out an application and send it in with a resume".

    Tried calling ahead to make appointments with HR, essentially got the same answer.

  •  Employment Agency Identity Theft -- (7+ / 0-)

    luring in desperate people seeking employment, collecting applicants' names, addresses, Social Securiity numbers, and birth dates, and then selling applicants' personal information because there are no jobs to fill and never were.

    It happened to me in Williamsport, Pa. with the outfit in the back of the Stopper Building/old Stroehmann bakery on Washington Blvd.

    Immediately after I filed a complaint with the Pa Human Relations Commission, the employment agency changed its name but not its practices.

    •  That is hubby's hometown, I lived and worked in (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ladybug53, Rosebuddear, cai

      social services there for 11 years. In fact, i worked for a county agency who, at the time, had the state and federal contract for  adult education, welfare reform, and job preparation, resume preparation etc.  I worked in one of the housing projects there but the main office was on the West end of town. You probably know which I am referring to.

      I nevr knew there was a scam going on with job search and employment services in the Stopper company. When was that as I left that area about 15 years ago.  I was there in the last 80s to late 90s. I also worked as a therapist for a drug and alcohol rehab outpatient facility and before that, a I was residental behavior therapist in a home for the mentally ill.

      Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

      by wishingwell on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:18:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  NOT Stopper Company Job Scam (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wishingwell

        Some half-assed temp employment agency rented an office in the back of the old Stroehmann bakery building on Washington Blvd. years ago (Interim, I believe.).  They advertised 6 different chemist and chemical engineering jobs with companies in the State College - Williamsport area.

        Since I was very active in my job search, I new all of the employers of chemists and chemical engineers in the State College-Lock Haven-Willamsport-Towanda area, and this seemed way too good to be true considering the job market was lousy.

        It turned out that it was too good to be true.  The employment agency admitted to the Pa. Human Relations Commission that none of the 6 advertised chemist or chemical engineering positions even existed.  (They just collected applicants' personal information which they turned around and sold.)  The agency changed its name immediately after the Pa HRC hearing.  Scumbags.

      •  Williamsport Courthouse Property Assessment Scam (0+ / 0-)

        wishingwell,
         The real scam was the 2004 Lycoming County "Fair Market Value" Property Tax Reassessment where the largest land parcels ended up as the least valuable for taxation purposes and the smallest land parcels ended up as the most valuable for taxation purposes, the antithesis of Fair Market Value taxation law (SEE 72 Pa CSA sec. 5020-402 -- Fair Market Value Taxation).

        A doctor on Ravine Road in exclusive Vallamont in Williamsport has a new, brick, $325,000 undervalued mansion on 10.44 acres obscenely  underappraised at $1010.00 ($96.74/acre) while a gentleman in the 300 block of Locust Street with an $11,000.00 home on .02 acre obscenely overappraised at $12,000.00 ($600,000.00/acre).  

        Everything belies common sense -- flood zones and blighted, crime-ridden ghettos have the most valuable land parcels for taxation purposes wjhile the most exclusive residential areas have the least valuable land for taxation purposes.
        (Ben Stopper has a $450,000.00 brick mansion on exclusive Grampian Blvd. on 7.05 acres obscenely underappraised at $45,080.00 ($6394.00/acre).

        Century 21 Appraisals of Middletown, Pa was the Lycoming County privatized assessment office that perpetrated this Major Criminal Fraud under county commissioners Richard Nassberg, Rebecca Burke, and Ernie Larson.

        This Major Criminal Fraud/Breach of Contract cost the taxpayers $370,000.00 and resulted in a number of the county school districts and municipal governments raising taxes based on the fraudulent assessment in order to generate enough revenue to operate.

        •  Thanks for all the information, I think I may (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RiveroftheWest

          recall something about a temp agency  but i had forgotten the name and details. But I did have some clients saying that they had found some temp agencies far better than others.  I only referred my clients and students to the more well known temp agencies.

          Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

          by wishingwell on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:24:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I will kosmail you sometime about all the crazy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RiveroftheWest

          and illegal and fraudulent things a friend of mine observed who have lived in Williamsport for 30 yrs and he worked as a paralegal and he was involved in politics, business, and he has experienced so much discrimination and he has seen so much fraud and abuse of power.

          Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

          by wishingwell on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:32:06 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  There's no regulation of hiring in this country. (13+ / 0-)

    There's a few basic non-discrimination provisions, which most employers ignore since it takes years to resolve if you're a victim.

    Other than that its wide open.

    There's only two ways to really get a decent job: You gotta know somebody, or you gotta get lucky. Doesn't matter what your resume says or what your credentials are or any of that waste of your valuable time. You either know somebody, or you get lucky. Most people get good jobs because they know somebody. Only the crap jobs have actual hiring processes.

    So think of sending out your resume is no different from playing lotto.

    •  Ayep! (4+ / 0-)

      What BBB said. And so, if you're not already working the knowing someone angle, going to school to meet others, it's still a tough row to hoe.

      What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

      by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:30:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  agreed - the sad thing is that what is (6+ / 0-)

      described in the diary is even true for low-level entry jobs, which don't need much education. Let's say you want a job at Staples, Cosco, Sportsauthority any large corporate retailer, you can only apply online and even if the position is advertised in a store near you, you can't just walk in and introduce yourself in addition to your online application.

      Impossible. Happened several times to my son in the Washington DC area. For example my son had to come back from Hawaii last year, because he couldn't find enough hours in part-time jobs that would enable us both together to pay for his independent living over there. But he had applied for many jobs over there. Til today he gets responses up to a year later, "if he is still interested in the job". These are not jobs that guarantee you full-time hours or are contractor's jobs, when they all of the sudden have a contract and need for a specific project a worker that may be last two to three month. All of that makes building your residency or building your life on the basis for such jobs impossible.

      It's not only the case for well educated and experienced people, it's the same for low-level jobs.

    •  Well, you can network (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, Rosebuddear

      The saying is, "you gotta know somebody or you gotta be lucky" really is kind of short-sighted but I understand where the frustration lies.  

      I network on a regular basis in the Bay Area and there are LOTS of opportunities do to so and people who genuinely help others.  It depends on who you meet but in the networking world, good business communication matters and it isn't like you have to "be lucky."  You just have to continue to network at events by searching via Eventbrite, Meetup, etc.  Not all events are paid or expensive.  And you have to know the right ones.

      On the other hand, locations of where people are at, unfortunately, don't always provide enough networking opportunities.

      •  Christ that sounds depressing. (5+ / 0-)

        You really do go to things like that? I don't think I could hang out for the purposes of getting a job. Two things at cross purposes. I either want to hang out, or I want to just get work.

        I'm semi-retired and was quite lucky that I got to work as a bond trader for many years. I didn't network and didn't send out my resume. Just had a friend in the business who I served with in the military. Got the job sight unseen, purely on the recommendation of a buddy I hadn't seen in years and ran into on the subway. Didn't know shit about municipal bonds. It was pure luck that I happened to be good at it. I hadn't even finished my graduate studies. I was the only black guy in the place. Sheer unadulterated luck.

        •  It's less depressing than you think (7+ / 0-)

          But what's more depressing is continuing to apply on job boards.  I did that from 2005-2008 and got absolutely nowhere although the economy was better then.  Networking is the way to go nowadays.  And by networking, you actually get more self-esteem if you're making progress.  But you have to know where to go.  In the Bay Area, it's easier to network as the business industry is experiencing a lot of growth.

          Not everyone is good at networking but there isn't a soul in the business industry that doesn't believe it's the way to go nowadays.  Until Congress gets off its high horse and continues to pass unemployment and gets the U.S. back into more full employment (thereby reducing both the unemployment, underemployment and "real unemployment rate"), networking is the best choice.  All you need to do is go to Eventbrite and Meetup and start searching for events, typing in "networking" for example and seeing results of events or groups relevant to your search.  You have to start with SOME connections to begin with, even if it's at a small Meetup group gathering.  Not communicating with people most of the time and being on the computer is the least productive thing you can do.

          But networking has to be done artfully.  You can't just network by telling people, "I'm looking for a job."  You need to approach business contacts you meet at events on how you can serve as a good referral and you go from there.

          You meet someone at an event that's a good connection to make but you also make it a point to follow up with the person via e-mail or phone and propose having coffee, lunch, etc., whatever it takes to meet up with that person.  You then lightly slip that you're interviewing for say positions in the IT industry or what industry you are in but you do this after making the discussion with that business connection about how you can serve as a good referral.  If you can help a person in referring business to him/her, he/she is more likely to help you.  All professional super connectors and networking gurus will tell you this.

          I've got over 500 connections on LinkedIn and growing and I didn't do this because I was adding people like flakes do on Facebook.  I've actually been going to events for over a year, connect with people in the business industry and have even paid for events myself.  Most of the connections I have on LinkedIn are people I've met in person and I remove any connections of people who go MIA on me as I don't like dealing with flakes.  I've gone to good networking events with small groups of people and bad networking events that are over-promoted and really not about networking at all.  It takes time to build the network I have.

        •  Correction on part of my comment (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Rosebuddear, JerryNA

          "Until Congress gets off its high horse and continues to pass unemployment and gets the U.S. back into more full employment (thereby reducing both the un"

          I should mention that I meant to say "until Congress gets off its high horse and passes stimulus bills (which won't happen with the GOP and Tea Party in charge in the House) and works to reduce unemployment."

  •  I'm always amazed (19+ / 0-)

    at people who suggest dropping by a potential employer.

    Most of the people I know who made that suggestion were depression era people [my older relatives].  They just don't get that that tactic is now considered highly rude and offensive.

    Then there is the supposedly effective 'informational interview,' where some career counselor thinks there are scads of people who have time on their hands to give these interviews.

    It's puzzling to me how people have writing or consultant careers in this field. They all offer the same useless advice.

    The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

    by dfarrah on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:56:40 AM PST

    •  Yes, it is amazing! (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, Rosebuddear, cai, JerryNA, akeitz

      I work in a spa, and all the time people come in waving their resumes pretty much demanding to speak to someone about employment.  That isn't how to do it, folks.
      The HR department is on another acre of campus, and the front-line grunts can't help you.  Did you check the website?
      It's impersonal for sure, but what isn't these days.

    •  Because it works at Burger King... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Naniboujou, Odysseus, Rosebuddear

      ...that's (probably) where you can do the "just dropping by to see if you gots anything" gambit. Whoopee!

      What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

      by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:31:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, it doesn't (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        akeitz, bryduck, Calamity Jean

        A friend of mine was looking for a job in that stratum of the work world a couple of years ago, and every place he went they told him the same thing: go to our web site and fill out the online application.

        He didn't have reliable access to the internet from home, so he ended up spending a lot of time at his local public library.

        Cheers to public libraries!

        The good news is, he did finally get a job. The bad news is, it's a crappy, low-paying job and he hates it.

        We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

        by dconrad on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:15:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes I think it is people who are depression era (7+ / 0-)

      kids. My parents thought a lot of follow up was a good idea by phone or in person. They would have been in their 80s now, grew up during the Depression.  

      They used to think jobs were easier to obtain than they actually were. Although they changed their minds in the 80s and 90s when their kids were job searching and running into barriers.

      But even more so now in the 21st century, the job search techniques they taught me no longer apply and the job search skills I taught my students back in the early 90s, not all of them apply either 20 yrs later. Things have changed greatly in the world of job search.

      Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

      by wishingwell on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:33:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That is correct, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DarkSyde, Rosebuddear

      we don't want to be bothered by the serfs and peons in our ivory towers with our golden parachutes.  After all I LOVE my people!

      ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

      by geekydee on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:40:53 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why Are The Screening Questions At The END? (12+ / 0-)

    I think it's mostly Taleo that does this - there are the deadly five screening questions that are totally non-negotiable and will knock you out automatically, but they put them at the end so you have to go through the whole application process.

    Second, how about a progress bar to tell you if the application is going to be a 3 hour ordeal or if it's just a "click and submit" application.

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:59:20 AM PST

    •  Because they don't care (9+ / 0-)

      and it doesn't cost them a goddam cent to put an ap up online.

      What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

      by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:32:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Some (9+ / 0-)

        company websites are pretty good, you can even store your info and update it easily. Others are just terrible; I saw one the one the other day where if you got the Captcha wrong -- those distorted letters intended to filter out bots -- it blanked out your entire app and you had to start completely over.

        •  Write An Essay, Shows Character Limit On Submit (10+ / 0-)

          Oh your submission is 500 characters too long?  Gee guess you could have used that information before you started.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:44:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  My favorite (9+ / 0-)

          is the mandatory salary requirements field. If you refuse to fill it in you get an error message. Same if you try to write in non-numeric characters (ie "negotiable"). So, you essentially are forced to negotiate with yourself in an attempt to even have a chance at getting an interview.

          The online applications really have made a mockery of the traditional "rules" for getting a job and negotiating a salary. This switch to online applications really has commoditized the labor market more than most people realize!

          Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity, only not as much fun.

          by Toktora on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:16:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Really? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Rosebuddear, JerryNA, dconrad

            I certainly never gave and answer to that when asked in an interview or on an ap. Seemed like a really bad idea and limited your upside.

            Think answering the current salary question is probably open to abuse as well - from the applicant's side as well, until they ask you to supply a check stub or deposit record.

            What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

            by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:08:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Totally true... (7+ / 0-)

              Most have a place for "Desired Salary" or some such phrase, but most applications do not force you to answer the question.

              However, I ran into an application that had TWO places for salary and both were required. The first was for your "Desired Salary" while the second was for "Minimum Salary".

              Talk about a lop-sided salary negotiation! You've told them your absolute minimum wage before even being screened. On top of that, I'm almost certain they built in some sort of computerized filter to weed out people not falling into their salary window.

              Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity, only not as much fun.

              by Toktora on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:52:20 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Desired Salary < Minimum Salary? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ladybug53, Rosebuddear, JerryNA

                Jeezus! That'd be somewhere to avoid if possible. Sound like sharks.

                What stronger breast-plate than a heart untainted! Thrice is he arm'd, that hath his quarrel just; And he but naked, though lock'd up in steel, Whose conscience with injustice is corrupted. Henry VI Part II Act 3 Scene 2

                by TerryDarc on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 12:11:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Pro Tips: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RiveroftheWest

          (Unfortunately, I've been filling out a lot of online job application forms).

          * Have all your information in a format that is easy to cut-n-paste into the form. Previous employer's names, addresses, phone numbers... all that. Cutting and pasting from one window into the form on your browser is far, far faster. (Well, if your typing skills are anything like mine.)

          * If you are given the option to enter your resume into the form, it may be far more efficient to enter the info rather than posting your resume. If you opt for uploading your resume, some sites then scan your resume and use the scanned info to fill in the same fields that you could have filled in (or pasted) yourself. The resume scanning process is typically seriously flawed and what it fills in for you automagically requires so much manual fixing that you're better off just highlighting each field and overwriting it by pasting the info in from the text version of your resume.

          I get a good laugh when I hear/read comments from job seekers who claim to apply to 40-50 jobs/day. I don't think there's anyone on the planet who can even come close to that... even if you're pasting information into the forms. Not even if you skip sleeping.

          •  Half an hour per application is doable (0+ / 0-)

            It helps when your cover letter doesn't need reworking so you can spam it out. I think though my top is 18 in one day for jobs I was capable of doing for certain via email, but then when your skillsets are in a narrow arena it can be faster. Heck I've done drop ins on 10 businesses in one day, the others in the industry I didn't want to work for period (I won't work for someone that compromises my sense of ethics, PC technicians can be a bit like hair dressers your good clients follow you).

            And note some of the job search sites and providers keep copies of resumé CV and cover letter, often multiple copies (I keep 3 copies of each, two tailored and one complete, at home), and can allow a bulk send so it's far from impossible the examples you hear/read.

    •  What pisses me off is the personality screen (9+ / 0-)

      that all the retailers use.  You can put the app in fairly quickly, especially if they let you upload your resume, then you have 100 questions like "It's ok to steal supplies from work, you earned it.  Strongly agree, agree, blah, blah, blah."   If you're too stupid to chose "strongly disagree", then you're too stupid to turn a computer on.

      •  The thing that gets my goat about those... (8+ / 0-)

        Is that a lot of the time they seem designed to weed out disabled and mentally ill applicants.

        Seriously. They ask things like "is your mood normally good", "do you get along with people easily", things like that. If I'm honest, no, I'm not normally in a good mood, and I don't. I'm depressed, autistic, in chronic pain, and painfully socially awkward. I don't get along with people fucking easily.

        When the scribbling devil is got into a man's head, he falls to writing and publishing, which gets him as much fame as money, and as much money as fame. ~ Cervantes

        by scribblingTiresias on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:47:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think we were separated at birth. (9+ / 0-)

          I laugh at the one that says "Other employees look to me to be their leader."  I always say "definitely agree", although I'm the one begging to do inventory in the backroom.

          •  The ridiculous part of this is that somebody (4+ / 0-)

            needs to do inventory in the back room, and the person people look to as a leader may hate it.  In a sane workplace of any size, there is room for different personalities.  

            Besides, who cares if somebody is charismatic if they're a psychopath?  Or if the place they want to lead all their eager followers is off a cliff?  Not everybody needs to be a positive-thinking extrovert, and if your company is staff entirely by them (especially the "positive thinking" part which doesn't admit problems and distrusts people who raise them), then your business is in for rough times.

            But oh well, the CEO gets a huge salary-bonus package, so it's all good, right?

            © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

            by cai on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 04:45:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly this. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cai, JerryNA, Calamity Jean

              I tend to be an unstable, creative, intuitive, reclusive kind of person. There is a place in the world for people like me. It's not in corporate America, though.

              When the scribbling devil is got into a man's head, he falls to writing and publishing, which gets him as much fame as money, and as much money as fame. ~ Cervantes

              by scribblingTiresias on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 05:01:08 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Republished to Unemployment Chronicles. (10+ / 0-)

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

    by Most Awesome Nana on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 08:59:52 AM PST

  •  Not just outright scams (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mimi, annieli, Rosebuddear

    But you don't need to look closely to figure out many listings are advertisements for companies.

    Especially when they tout the company and how it's the bestest ever and give little description as to qualifications for the job listing!

    And if legit them so called human resource, hate that, people that are so educated don't recognize what experience means and the cross over of much of!!

    "If military action is worth our troops' blood, it should be worth our treasure, too; not just in the abstract, but in the form of a specific ante by every American." -Andrew Rosenthal 10 Feb. 2013

    by jimstaro on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:01:25 AM PST

  •  Not surprised (14+ / 0-)

    I've seen many academic positions posted that were nothing more than window dressing to satisfy the campus equal opportunity office.

    You see an ad, and if you have a friend on the inside, they'll tell you they've already got somebody lined up for the job, it's just that they have to "go through the motions" of doing a job search so it looks like they aren't using the "old boys' network" as they used to call it.

    The end result is that there often is not any "equal opportunity," unless you mean equal opportunity among insiders with connections.

    •  Saw this happen many times. (9+ / 0-)

      There was a professor that my college really wanted to keep (she's brilliant), but they didn't have an opening and if they made a new position, it would have to be advertised off campus. The resulting job description was written so narrowly no matter who applied, the candidate they had already picked would be the only one qualified.

      Came back to bite them in a way. She stayed long enough to add to her CV and then bolted for greener pastures!  

      "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

      by Most Awesome Nana on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:26:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It happens in non-academic jobs also. (7+ / 0-)

      I worked as a temp at my last job before I retired and when they offered me the job, they indicated they had to post a job opening before they actually hired me.

      I really didn't want the job, but they were desperate to hire somebody as quickly as possible (payroll), so they paid me what I asked for (higher than usual). I never wanted the job, but because of health insurance and the regular pay, I stayed for 6 years. Six soul-sucking year. Glad I quit!

      I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

      by woolibaar on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:57:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ugh. (14+ / 0-)

    Makes me wonder.  Even the single job interview I got, from a supposedly respectable large area hospital, I was promised I'd be contacted 'one way or another' to let me know if I was hired or not.  It's been 2.5 months without even a peep, and several emails directly to both the HR person I met with and the nurse manager have been ignored.  (And I checked my spam folders to make sure they hadn't somehow wound up there.)  And since then, job postings for the same sort of position on the same unit have reappeared.

  •  Screening software tip (13+ / 0-)

    Agree that you should only apply for jobs on actual company websites, in almost all cases. One more thing a lot of people don't know:

    Most companies use software for first round sorting of applications. It is stupid software, and looks for language matching requirements. So if the job says "3 years experience in customer service" and you put down "One year at the front desk of a hotel and 2 years as manager of a restaurant" it will weed you out and no live person will see it.

    Best to match their language exactly, then clarify on your resume.

    "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof.” ― John Kenneth Galbraith

    by Urban Owl on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:10:10 AM PST

    •  Correct (7+ / 0-)

      CRM's are the screen you have to get past. And on that subject, don't believe the "overqualified" explanation often proffered by friends and family hoping to make you feel better. I'm sure it happens from time to time, there are documented instances of it happening, but even then just as likely that's an ad hoc rationalization used by hiring managers to gloss over age bias or the fact that they're overwhelmed by applicants.

      Think about the people you hire: when was the last time you got an airplane and worried the crew might be overqualified? If you found out the landscaper mowing your grass had a PhD in botany, would you feel uneasy and demand someone with a GED?

      •  OTOH (5+ / 0-)

        We hired an overqualified project manager who left for another job after one month, when a preferred job came through.

        After a burn or two, general consensus is that job fit does matter.

        I agree that sometimes it's just age discrimination, but not always.

        "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof.” ― John Kenneth Galbraith

        by Urban Owl on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:32:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Stupid Software (8+ / 0-)

      or robots. Here's a link to an interesting infographic I came across about "resume robots". Tips on how to increase your chances of making it to the pile that humans actually look at.

      http://theundercoverrecruiter.com/...

      "Please proceed, Governor"

      by portlandzoo on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:15:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Number of times buzzwords appear (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Urban Owl

      A friend of mine told me something, the last time I was looking for work, which was that the software doesn't just check to see if the right buzzwords are present, but counts the number of times they appear. So if you've used Java on lots of projects at several jobs, it's much better if the work "Java" appears over and over again than if it only appears once, even if the import is the same.

      I actually went over my resume and made changes to make sure that all the right industry buzzwords appeared, not just once, but in each place where they were relevant. I have no idea if that actually helped me to get my current job (or to get other interviews during that job search). But it's something to consider.

      We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

      by dconrad on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:26:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I saw plenty of the ID theft ads when I was (5+ / 0-)

    looking for work. Scary as hell.

    ...better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity, than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference. -FDR, 1936

    by James Allen on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:11:23 AM PST

  •  Being in a hiring company (head hunter) database (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DarkSyde, Rosebuddear, cai, JerryNA

    should require the consent of the person. Without that permission your name shouldn't be subject to any contract obligations of that hiring agency.

    To be first in the soil, which erupts in the coil, of trees veins and grasses all brought to a boil. -- The Maxx

    by notrouble on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:27:06 AM PST

    •  It (6+ / 0-)

      does require consent, but you may have given that consent simply by filling out an app, and the head-hunter isn't necessarily evil, they're as overworked and underpaid as everyone else and they make their money by filling jobs, so they have an incentive to assume you won't mind -- and to be fair that's not an unsupportable assumption, a lot of people won't mind -- and who's going to enforce it anyway?

      •  If you've ever posted your resume on Monster, Dice (0+ / 0-)

        or other job sites, you've effectively published it and I can guarantee that you will be in a zillion head hunter databases from now until the heat death of the universe.

        I removed my resume from Monster and Dice after I got my current position in 2012, and I still get several emails per day. Fortunately I used an email address that I can filter to a special "career spam" folder. I also used a Google Voice number instead of my real phone number, and I still get at least a couple calls per week. I wish like hell I hadn't given them any phone number at all.

        We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

        by dconrad on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:28:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  some institutions will post the job simply to (8+ / 0-)

    retain the budget line for the next fiscal year. I estimate that from personal experience 10% of positions for which I've applied are ones that get cancelled due to "failed searches" or unspecified reasons

    Also the use of credit-worthiness to disqualify applicants is discriminatory - how do you get out of debt if you can't gain income - oh wait - just go further into debt - this is the "legitimate" loan sharkery(sic) of capitalism, after all isn't that what E-Bay is for as well as all those Spam offers, or the Lotto.....

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:37:45 AM PST

  •  also the weak link for identity theft (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rosebuddear, JerryNA

    aside from credit bureaus themselves are HR offices if legislation or regulation should occur it should include bonding of such officers

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:39:29 AM PST

  •  Some of these practices aren't new. (10+ / 0-)

    Many years ago when I was a graduate student, I applied for a permanent position at my university. The job was a perfect fit for my skills, education, goals. I interviewed with HR, the Dean of Research, the person who would be my immediate supervisor. Went through a comprehensive background check. It all went smooth as glass. Everyone told me they were recommending me for the job.

    Then a month later I got a letter informing me that they had decided not to fill the position at that time.

    My graduate adviser told me there was money in the budget the board wanted to use for something else but they had to be seen to make an effort to fill a position. Pissed did not begin to describe how I felt. And I switched advisers (not an easy task) because he should have told me before I applied.

    Such a waste of everyone's time and energy.  

    "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

    by Most Awesome Nana on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:40:31 AM PST

  •  So that's how that happened. Luckily I didn't (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ladybug53, Rosebuddear, cai, Calamity Jean

    have my identify stolen but now I'm being inundated with calls to my no-call-list home # wanting to help me get a job or update my resume.

  •  Worst of all... (4+ / 0-)

    Blind ads specifying that the resume MUST include accurate salary information.  Never, NEVER respond to those!!!

  •  There is a blog (7+ / 0-)

    That has posted about this in the past http://collegecareerlife.net/...

    http://collegecareerlife.net/...

    Lots of information on this website about fake job postings.

  •  Thank you for this diary (4+ / 0-)

    just want to say that this:

    "Maaaybe it's time to get seeeerious about this and think outside the box: after you fill out the application online why not stop by the company to introduce yourself and add that personal touch?" As if in all the brainstorming done by millions of desperate people over the past four years, no one has ever thought of trying that! The whole reason it's all done online now is because they Do Not want people showing up uninvited. And if you do it anyway, you'll be lucky to get far enough along to creep out a receptionist and generate a call to company security or local police.
    is more than true and if Dr. Phil has said that crap, I declare him openly now a dumb ass Jerk. What an ass to make millions with idiot advice nobody needs.

    The situation you describe is also true for low-level entry jobs, unfortunately. Have experienced it several times now. Now I know also why my son's ID was stolen two times. It's very well possible it has something to do with his zillions of online applications at very simple jobs.

    The time of walking in and introducing yourself are over. My son had found a job lately, basically an old friend of his new of an opening where his language skills were a plus. He went through the whole application procedure which took two months and several tests and certificates to make.

    None of the promises they made for that certain position were kept, once on the job, nothing was as it was announced. So, I mean with job protection laws like that, no wonder that you end up with almost slave-like working conditions.
    It's simply disgusting.

  •  Thank you for this "must-read" diary (7+ / 0-)

    Very thought provoking and gets to the heart of the matter, as well as educational and a conversation starter that has been lacking lately!  Going to recommend it to some non-DailyKOS folks in the workforce development field.

    ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

    by geekydee on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 10:41:25 AM PST

  •  I had a job post recently ask for my SS# and (6+ / 0-)

    name to lock me into using them as my hiring agent!!! Kid you not!

  •  The main way people get jobs at my company (5+ / 0-)

    is they get hired on as a temp, work their six months, then get hired on permanent (entry level $11-12 an hour) or, they know the owners and are hired on for some bullshit analyst/sales job at $100,000 a year. The temps can move up, even in a short time frame if they do their job and show incentive.

    I actually got hired on 10 years ago through an ad in the local paper. (I was over qualified, but the hours and commute worked at the time and I needed a job with health insurance) I eventually had the opportunity to apply for the job I was more qualified for and got it. I think they still hire this way for their mid-level dispatcher jobs. But dispatch jobs for trucking companies is something that seems to be a network so every body knows someone who knows someone so it may be more word of mouth.

    As for my former life in banking, I still maintain certification and membership in the regional association even though it is kind of expensive. I volunteer on one of their planning committees. If I were to look for another job, I would definitely go to those I know there and put the word out, get on their linked in group, etc.  Over the years, the same people pop up in different jobs so I know it is a process of who they know. One advantage to professional associations is that other members know of you so they are willing to give recommendations and they hear of openings before they are posted. Sometimes, for certain skill sets, they may even 'create' a position to get you hired on, if you know the right people and they are impressed enough with you.

    Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

    by whoknu on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:15:39 AM PST

  •  We need to change the information in a job (7+ / 0-)

    application to that of a need to know.

    For instance the employer does not need to know your social security number until after you are hired.

    What information an employer can get over the internet from prospective interviewees should be severely limited.

    They should have to at least meet you face to face to get your classified information and hire you to get your social security number.

    Now they have the 2nd (safety net for sloppy) Amendment, and can't be infringed to actually treat their gun like a gun and not a video game controller.

    by 88kathy on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:32:02 AM PST

  •  AFLAC (6+ / 0-)

    I am a self-employed consultant, doing project-oriented work, sometimes on a W-2 basis, and sometimes on a "corp-to-corp" basis through my LLC. While I mostly obtain work through contacts I have developed over the years, I do keep current resumes posted on CareerBuilder and Monster.

    One problem with this is that I am constantly besieged by phone calls from AFLAC, trying to get me to sell their crappy insurance. I can't imagine why, since there is nothing in my background that this would be a good fit for me. What's their scam?

    •  High Turnover 1099 Work (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Odysseus, Amber6541, Rosebuddear

      It's not a bad gig for someone that wants a second income in the family.  Of course, there are lots of jobs out there for people that don't actually need any money.  It takes about 2 years to build up a decent income where the renewal commissions start to accumulate.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:22:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dodging anti-discrim laws (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Andrew Lazarus, Rosebuddear, cai, JerryNA

    may be another motivation - especially for repetitive job ads found in really obscure listings services.  This applies to so-called equal employers.

    For example, after they have already decided hire the (usually white) person (who also happens to be a friend of the area head) they can claim no one qualified for the position answered their very generic ad for "openings."

  •  Executive Summary vs Cover Letter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DarkSyde, Amber6541, Rosebuddear

    I admit it, I am just sick and tired of writing cover letters that probably go in the trash.  Is a resume with executive summary adequate if there isn't enough time to sit down and compose a prose masterpiece?  

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:19:28 PM PST

    •  The (6+ / 0-)

      jobs I apply for almost always list a specific skill set and a preferred set. So my CV will have that info and only that info in it. If it says minimum five years experience in XYZ and I have eight years, it will say "over five years experience in XYZ." If it says familiarity with MSFT office required or a plus, I will list Excel, Word, Outlook, etc. If it says excellent written communication skills and knowledge of basic html a plus or required, I will write "I have excellent written communications skills and am a published, widely read author and web page content provider using HTML, samples available on request." Or something like that. If they spell the five in five-years, I spell it, if they use the numeral 5, I use the numeral.

      The jobs I'm applying for will be screened by a CRM where the screener can list various keywords to filter, I've been advised and had my stuff written and formatted specifically to get past that hurdle. Sometimes the company website has a system which will take your resume and try to populate their fields, so you can actually test out how well your resume will do that and tweak it as necessary.

      I don't use anything but default text and font size, I don't list any non relevant work experience or hobbies or anything like that, unless they ask somewhere on the app. It's succinct, concise, and to the point, about half a generic dozen versions are saved on my desktop that can be quickly tweaked and sent in.

      I don't know if that's would help in other kinds of jobs, like higher level project directors or execs because I never apply for those.

  •  Fake ads preparatory to H1-B application (6+ / 0-)

    I should mention another type of scam: an ad for a real job, with an absurdly low salary. There's one running now on Craigslist tying to get a junior software engineer for $65K in the Bay Area. Good luck with that. Straight out of college must be $90K or more now. The idea is that after the search fails, they make an H1-B application using the ad as evidence of their good faith effort to hire American.

    The last time I looked, I couldn't even find a US Government web site to report crap like this. Maybe if I mention it on my landline NSA will forward to the Department of Labor.

  •  After reading the comments (6+ / 0-)

    I am super glad that I'm retired. I was lucky; I never had to go job-seeking during hard times. I was extraordinarily lucky back in the early 60's. What turned out to be my lifelong career was started as a joke. Seriously. (That's another story for another time.)

    The present, deplorable, state of affairs is entirely solvable. There is a great deal of useful work that desperately needs to be done in this country. There are millions of capable people willing to do that work. All we need is a government that understands that, and acts upon it.

    Infrastructure, education, basic research -- investment for the future. Fund it with deficit spending if necessary. Better yet, raise taxes on the rich to fund it.

    The remedy is simple, but, alas, not easy.

    Vote, dammit, even if you think it won't matter, Especially when you think it won't matter. (-7.25, -6.21)

    by Tim DeLaney on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 02:26:23 PM PST

  •  Know somebody or get lucky (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dconrad, JerryNA, akeitz

    Totally this. In my case, after 6 months of hard job searching last year, I got lucky. I was hired by a company where the owner liked me for a number of reasons which had absolutely positively nothing to do with how well I could do the job. I mean NOTHING.

    He was fascinated by my military service (in a totally unrelated field), felt that made me "tough" and "responsible".

    He asked me a zillion intrusive questions about my personal life, and liked the answers (such as that I have no children, so wouldn't be taking time off for" kids' problems," and I am single and 61, so I wouldn't have "those young girls' boyfriend issues"). OMG. And he liked the fact that I own my own mobile home, because homeowners as opposed to renters are more "stable". A lotta lotta stuff like that. And cheerfully admitted right up front that he was asking questions you're not supposed to ask, knowing that there would never be any repercussions for that.

    On the other hand, NancyK (who I really feel for you dear) and others, don't get discouraged. Even though that is totally hard not to do. You never know when the next person you talk to will want to hire you for some quality of yours that catches their fancy, maybe something you haven't even thought of as a positive.

    This is a great article, and all the commenters have made very intelligent and thoughtful comments, on a topic that is near and dear to my heart. Tipped and rec'd.

    "I'm not going to come up there and get you, you have to learn to walk past the cat." http://cheezburger.com/56820481

    by Rosebuddear on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 03:55:49 PM PST

    •  Wow. Illegal. (0+ / 0-)

      I guess it was a small company since you were A) talking to the owner, and B) he was asking things that it is flat-out illegal to ask in a job interview.

      You obviously know this, since you said he "admitted right up front that he was asking questions you're not supposed to ask, knowing that there would never be any repercussions", but I just want to make sure people know that asking those kinds of questions is not just offensive but can actually get their company into hot water.

      Big companies avoid those kinds of things, not because they're necessarily any more honest or decent, but just because they're not dumb enough to do things that invite a lawsuit.

      We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

      by dconrad on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:43:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup. I knew it. He knew it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RiveroftheWest

        He didn't care. Who is gonna call him on it? Certainly not me, I needed the job.

        Yeah I know it's illegal. But like many other "illegal" things, if you're big enough, laws don't matter.

        My last employer before this did the exact same thing, got called on it a couple of times, and just laughed. Nobody ever sued, because who has the money and wants the hassle of that? Just sayin'.

        I would totally rec your comment if it wasn't already too late to rec.

        "I'm not going to come up there and get you, you have to learn to walk past the cat." http://cheezburger.com/56820481

        by Rosebuddear on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 04:27:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sales Scam (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JerryNA, Calamity Jean

    I went on one interview, purportedly for a software job.  Got there, turned out there was no job.  What there was, was a hard sell that a software job might materialize... if I dumped my existing life insurance policy and bought one from them instead.  

    I was astounded that they had the gall to pull this stunt.  I assume they wouldn't do it unless it worked occasionally.

  •  Has anyone mentioned pyramid schemes yet? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Calamity Jean

    Those seem to be another large category. My apology for not reading through the entire thread.

  •  Here's a clue: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    antirove

    If you're over 35, that job doesn't exist.

    "One of the boss' hangers-on sometimes comes to call, at times you least expect. Tryin' to bully you, strongarm you, inspire you with fear--it has the opposite effect."--Bob Dylan, "Floater"

    by oldmaestro on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:06:21 PM PST

  •  Organizing is as relevant as ever (0+ / 0-)

    In addition to labor unions, we now have to think about organizing in blocks of those who are being exploited for information.

    Who Owns the Future? is a good read.

    I have applied for 1000's of jobs over the last 10 years. Nowadays it is more likely for me to be sold to advertisers or subjected to marketing from the company I applied with than it is for me to get an interview, much more likely.

    Business plans involving collecting servers full of our information and selling us personalized music, medicine or what have you either directly or through advertisers are the norm.

    Funny thing is that in days past I thought the internet was my hope for escaping advertising.

    An ending aside, in my experience, overseas companies, even those with divisions in the US asking intrusive questions, don't ask those questions on their applications. The US is one of the lucky places where we can detail our salary, drug and incarceration history before even talking with anybody.

  •  Then there are the ones (0+ / 0-)

    that collect the information and when an employee asks for a raise, the company says, take what you've got, I have this many people looking to take your job.

  •   their brilliant recruitment efforts are stymied (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiveroftheWest

    DarkSyde said:

    I saw an afternoon talk show the other day where the sanctimonious host lectured a frustrated job seeker * * *: "Maaaybe it's time to get seeeerious about this and think outside the box: after you fill out the application online why not stop by the company to introduce yourself and add that personal touch?" As if in all the brainstorming done by millions of desperate people over the past four years, no one has ever thought of trying that!
    The problem of job seekers being unable to find jobs is not a  new one.  For whatever reason, there continues to be this belief that the basic problem is that job seekers don't know how to seek jobs.  Supposedly, they just don't know how to network.  Supposedly, they just don't know how to present themselves. Et cetera, et cetera.

    Supposedly, companies are eager to hire talented candidates,  and have a good system in place to hire them— but their brilliant recruitment efforts are stymied by the job seekers' continued failure to approach them correctly.  This seems unfair— since employers are continuously hiring  people while job seekers occasionally get to take a few months or years off to hold down jobs once hired— and also untrue.  In my experience, employers do a very bad job of recruitment, a worse job of hiring, and an even worse job of onboarding and training workers once hired.

  •  You forgot the biggest reason VISAS! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiveroftheWest

    Fake job listings so that they can CLAIM they tried to hire a stupid lazy American but none were available so they HAD to use a stack of H1b visas to get third world slave labor into the country so that they could exploit them.

    They have to prove that they ran an ad for a certain number of weeks before they can get the visas so they just leave it up 52 weeks a year to cover their ass.

  •  I some some pretty heavy criticism about the last (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiveroftheWest

    paragraph in this article, and I'm speaking from quite a bit of experience.  I work for a company that provides an ATS (industry speak for Applicant Tracking System) for our clients (not going to name my company since I am speaking from my view and not a company view).  I've worked here for nearly a decade and I have plenty of experience talking to folks who have submitted applications to our clients as well as the hiring managers who are making the decisions about which person to hire.

    "Maaaybe it's time to get seeeerious about this and think outside the box: after you fill out the application online why not stop by the company to introduce yourself and add that personal touch?"

    This is a totally legitimate criticism to ask an applicant who is complaining about no return communication.  Many of our clients get 100's of applications per day for positions they are not actively hiring for.  They keep these positions open permanently and always except apps because those positions will often have high turnover and they need to access potential applications immediately when an employee provides notice.

    Hiring managers DO pay more attention to someone that has come in to follow-up, even when they have a list of applications.  I've heard it countless times that "They applied and came in and I didn't even look for anyone else".  A lot of it still depends on timing, but if you're the only person that came in and had face-to-face time with the hiring manager in the last 3 weeks, the might still remember you.  Not a guarantee, but it bumps up the chances.

    Again though, the real problem is the lack of jobs being available for each person looking.  One of the big reasons our clients turn to our service is to manage the flood of applications they get.  A lot of that management ends up being "out of site out of mind" and the system acts as a bucket for accepting applications without having to require a manager to lift a finger doing anything.  I just gets done by a computer and it's there when they need it.

  •  There's another reason for advertising jobs (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dconrad, RiveroftheWest

    In some locations (Australia this is prevalent), jobs are required to be advertised externally for certain employers (local council in my case [speaking from experience] for instance) even if they have someone internally they stick into the job. Seen it with a few corporates as well. No matter how you look at it it's a stinking practice and a lot of people get shafted, especially those of us over qualified for what is available, but under qualified for others.

  •  There are enough laws in the land of the free! (0+ / 0-)

    Yes, it's outrageous that legitimate companies field sleazy ads.  And it's even more outrageous that anyone who completes the online application gets royally screwed six ways from Sunday.  But we don't need any more laws.  What we need are ways for people to check out - maybe telephone? - companies that advertise online for jobs.  Not just by calling the number on the application, but checking with 411 on the telephone.  Yup, it'll cost you a few cents - maybe a buck and a half - but if you can avoid filling out an ad that will help someone steal your identity, it might be worth the money.

  •  Fake Postings... (0+ / 0-)

    "There are listing posted by disreputable companies"

    There are tons of listings posted by reputable companies even though the job doesn't exist.  A lot of companies do this just to keep their applicant file somewhat current because most companies feel that an application/resume/CV more than 6 months old belongs in the scrap heap.

    In addition, since a lot of companies farm much of their H.R. work out to third party contractors the contract agency will often post "Position" ads just to Hoover people that are available and see what shaking the tree turns up.

    The bottom line is that the best option for finding a job is the Good Old Boys (or Girls) Network.  This is important when jobs are plentiful but it is critical in today's job market where a prospective employer can pick and choose.  An application going in through some web site will likely not even make it to the Hiring Manager's desk.

  •  Who is Viola? (0+ / 0-)

    Did you mean "Voilà"?

  •  Online job applications (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RiveroftheWest

    I can't tell you how many job applications I've filled out online.  Some answer but most do not.  I'm in a field that is overstuffed with applicants, so I know that they get hundreds of applications and don't bother to answer the rejects. But I do have my suspicions, which you have just verified.  I'm fortunate that I just got rehired by a former employer, but I don't think I'll ever apply online again.  The safest way, IMHO, is to go with a state or local employment agency.  It is tragic how many good people are out of work and can't get jobs.  It's a judgment on our country's leadership.

  •  Thank YOU! (0+ / 0-)

    DarkSyde - i saw/heard that sanctimonious talk show host say that also - thank you for keying out what i could only do by smh...
    Anyway - thank you for helping pull me out of THAT arrogance-imposed funk!

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