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A recent poll has me perplexed. Pretty perplexed. An increasing number of Americans believe that astrology (the belief that the apparent motion of the planets and stars through the heavens actually has an effect on life here on Earth) is actually science and not entertainment.

Oh dear.

Now I’ll make a confession. My mom is into this stuff. She’s rather successfully syncretized new-age beliefs (woo, I suppose one would call it) into Christianity.  She reads Tarot, believes in past-life regression (and none of her past lives were anyone famous), does natal charts, and all that jazz. Yes, I’ve had my natal chart done. No, it’s not even close to what my personality actually is. Yes, I’ve had a tarot reading (she was a big hit at my after prom). This is all a bunch of nope to my dad, and now, to me. That said, I’m okay with all of this. She doesn’t believe any of this is actually science, spirituality perhaps, and I was raised by both parents to be skeptical although I do have fun joking about my various “Libra” traits. It’s entertainment. It’s a joke. That we still had to go to a fairly conservative church and Sunday school is another story, and one I still have some resentment about, but we will save that for another day.

So basically, the following: You want me to believe that the motions of the planets and their placement in the sky at the moment of a person’s birth determines their personality? And that when planets have the appearance of moving backward through our sky that EVENTS OF NOTE happen? And the constellations of the zodiac are fixed? And there’s no mechanism for this beyond a bunch of Handwavium mysticism that might be gravity even though it has no measurable effects despite all the very sensitive instruments on Earth and floating around our star system? Will future Martian colonists freakout when Earth goes into retrograde?

Please. No. It’s not reality. It’s entertainment. It’s a real-world application of the Forer Effect. Humans have evolved with (for reasons we don’t yet know and probably will never know) very, very powerful cognitive biases. Is this a function of sentience? I don’t suppose we’ll ever know, although I certainly would like to.

Now, the poll (which comes from the General Social Survey) has caveats. Social scientists really don’t know why Americans, across the board but especially amongst the younger millennials born between 1990 and 1996 have chosen to believe astrology is actually science. It’s a harmless curiosity at best. At worst, it displays a breakdown in critical scientific education.  I’m also aware that there are a number of nations (India and Japan, for example) where astrology has far more sway than it does here in the U.S.

Scientific testing of astrology and its claims have found that astrology is not science. Its claims do not happen.  I will give serious astrologers props for using fairly sophisticated math. But all that math predicts nothing on Earth. Oh, and Pluto isn’t a planet anymore and it was simply grafted onto astrological calculations when Pluto was discovered in 1930. Same for Neptune. Should astrologers add the minor planets like Sedna, Quaorar, and Xena and the other large Kuiper Belt Objects into their calculations? Will they now graft those on as well? And the larger inner-system asteroids, like Ceres?

Let’s look at a few things. Like the Zodiac. And briefly, apparent retrograde motion.

In astrological terms, the Zodiac are the 12 Colonies of Kobol constellations that the sun and planets move through during the Earth’s year. The location of those planets and the sun, and the moon, and where they are in their orbits is what determines what the “predictions” are.  Like, if Mars is in a certain spot, you will be a great athlete (yes, really, this was an experiment that allegedly proved astrology true. It’s been debunked over and over and over again because the results of the original experiment were never, ever replicated. )

In reality, the Zodiac is essentially a celestial coordinate system based on the ecliptic. The ecliptic is the path of the sun through the celestial sphere through the course of the year (reality and astrology both share this. It’s one of the few things astrology gets right.) The moon and the visible planets remain close the ecliptic. The concept of the zodiac dates all the way back to Babylonian times but largely was constructed by Ptolemy.

This coordinate system is used to draw the boundaries for the constellations, as seen from our skies (or more accurately, our solar system.)

The zodiac system can be fixed to the stellar background or fixed to the point of vernal equinox. This has caused the zodiac system, as best as I understand it, to drift due to precession.  In 1930, constellation boundaries were redrawn to now include the constellation Ophiuchus. The sun moves through a portion this constellation’s boundaries between November 29 and December 17. Furthermore, the ecliptic passes close to Cetus and planets may be seen within it for brief period s of time.  Are there 13 signs now? In Japan, apparently yes. 14? Do tell.

As for retrograde motion, we all understand orbits, yes? Orbits are roughly ovoid to circular. From our viewpoint, there are times where a planet will appear to move backwards against the sky. It really isn't moving backward. It just looks that way. Apparently Mercury is in retrograde right now, so EVENTS OF NOTE are happening. I'm aware that "serious" astrologers think Mercury Retrograde is a bunch of pop "hysteria." I find this deeply amusing.

I'd love to know by what mechanism that a planet's apparent backward motion through the sky causes (in the example of Mercury Retrograde, for example) tech to fail, money to be lost, keys to be forgotten, marriages to fail, miscarriages, wars, and the like. But whatever. It's a strong example of after this therefore because of this or post hoc ergo propter hoc. I lost my keys. I learned Mercury was in retrograde at the time. Therefore Mercury being in retrograde is why I misplaced my keys.

The Forer Effect

Just what is the Forer Effect? It comes from the tendency of people to rate sets of statements as highly accurate for them personally even when the statements are vague and can be applied to many people. That’s astrology. Even when people are born at the same time, in the same city, in the same hospital, and therefore have the same “natal chart”, they aren’t even  close to being the same. The Forer Effect also applies to personality tests , like the Meyers Briggs for example (if you must know, I’m an INFJ some days and an INTP other days. No, I don’t consider either scientifically valid and they merely are entertainment.)

The Forer Effect is also the PT Barnum Effect, where Barnum observed “we’ve got something for everyone!”  Unlike the Mars effect mentioned in passing above, the Forer effecthas been replicated. It even appears to be universal across cultures. The Chinese, for example, seem to reject as a whole Western astrology. But no apparent statistical differences between the two groups seem to exist when Forer effect tests are used.

To me, the Forer Effect explains in part why so many believe astrology is real. It doesn’t quite get to why Americans think it’s actually real science when it’s not even close, but that’s just me. I actually think Americans are confusing astrology with actual astronomy, which is an amazing science that also happens to be reality.

Astrology still isn’t science, though.  Not by a long shot. Entertainment? I’m okay with that—to the extent that an astrologer is not asked to be consulted on any science media programs on astronomy (a complaint actually made in the UK by astrologers, by the way, toward the BBC). I’m not okay with it being considered an actual science, but people will believe what they want. There’s not a whole lot I can do about that, other than pushing back (as politely as I can muster) against the woo.

9:24 AM PT: for some reason i can't fix the link.

The Mother Jones article is here: http://www.motherjones.com/...

Originally posted to SciTech on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 08:20 AM PST.

Also republished by Science Matters.

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Comment Preferences

  •  And yet world leaders (18+ / 0-)

    have consulted astrologers and "psychics" to determine the course of action. It would be funny if it wasn't so mindbogglingly stupid. The capacity of the human species for belief in the demonstrably unreal has kept con men and women in luxury for centuries.

  •  Economics is also considered science (17+ / 0-)

    and probably has a worse record than astrology. Of course as a wise person once said, "Economics is politics masquerading as science".

    I'm no philosopher, I am no poet, I'm just trying to help you out - Gomez (from the song Hamoa Beach)

    by jhecht on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 08:35:28 AM PST

    •  Economics denialism (7+ / 0-)

      There's nothing wrong with supply, demand, and the concepts of economics. It's a science, if a social science.

      If you're upset that complex models don't always properly model reality, I assume you're not a big fan of global warming either.

      •  I think people are a bit cranky that the (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrkvica, badger, Yasuragi, marsanges

        whole world's fate can rest on whether or not an excel sheet has the correct formulas or not.

        And rightly so, really.

        •  It's a completely different thing (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mikidee, nextstep, Yasuragi

          Astrology has zero relationship to any phenomena.

          Economics really does have relationships, it's just that in many cases they are complex or unclear.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:44:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was commenting on the rather poor (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            badger, Yasuragi

            record that the economist community has built in recent years; and actually now that you've made me think about it a bit more, I'd say that astrology and economics have more in common than you might think.  There are certainly quite a few hucksters in both fields.  I think I could certainly make the case that Alan Greenspan, for instance, was more of a "Wizard of Oz" than he was a wizard of anything else.  The economists in this era have a lot to answer for, imo.  Far too many simply stopped applying any scientific analysis to their predictions that the housing market was going to skyrocket into oblivion for all eternity.  At least astrologers seem to be cognizant of the concept of gravity ;)

      •  I disagree . . . (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        quill, mrkvica, badger, denise b, Yasuragi

        economics is not a science, it's a form of theology. Economists begin with a set of assumptions, none of which correspond to reality, then they spin out elaborate theories based on those assumptions. Meanwhile, they forget that the assumptions are false. It's mostly bullshit. That's why they can disagree about everything. And BTW, I had to pass qualifying examinations in economics for my doctorate.

        •  So, are you (0+ / 0-)

          proud or chagrined at the bullshit, or your passing the quals?

          I'm part of the "bedwetting bunch of website Democrat base people (DKos)." - Rush Limbaugh, 10/16/2012 Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

          by tom 47 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 07:50:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Historically, mainstream econ. as preached (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        badger, denise b

        and taught has ranged from non-empirical to anti-empirical. That is perhaps beginning to change, we shall see. Not too long ago an economist at Cal was some sort of award because he actually went out and wouldjalookatthat, Sam, did some emperical testing.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:06:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Alternate opinions (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        serendipityisabitch

        What is economics good for?

        Is economics a science?

        Jared Bernstein:

        ...you'd probably be hard pressed to find even many economists willing to defend our discipline as a science, or at least anything resembling a hard science. As the Times piece points out, "The trouble with economics is that it lacks the most important of science's characteristics -- a record of improvement in predictive range and accuracy.
    •  Economics is always accurate (0+ / 0-)

      When people make up stuff and pretend it's "economics," that gives the science a bad name.

      I'm living in America, and in America you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business.

      by CFAmick on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:37:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of course it's a science. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2, Brecht

      The problem is that many economists make predictions, and predictions are difficult in any field.  Ask a meteorologist to predict what'll happen in the long run, and they're just as befuddled (though they know better than to stretch their predictions beyond a week or so.)  Add in human behavior, and the variables become even more complicated.  But that doesn't mean we can't apply analytic methods to the field to try to understand how and why economies work.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:55:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  heh. not all mets know better. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pico

        there's at least one outlet that does 45 day forecasts. And people pay for them.

        Ha!

        Now you can make fairly broad and very general forecasts that far out but they're meaningless.

        Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility

        by terrypinder on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:35:34 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Differences (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rduran

        1) The meteorologists' predictions are getting better over time. If they aren't, then they should give up.

        2) Their predictions aren't based on assumptions that are demonstrably false - at least I hope not.

        3) There aren't value judgments about the human social order built into their work.

        The very fact that we have left-wing, right-wing and centrist economists coming up with completely different answers to the same questions is itself evidence that the field is hopelessly grounded in personal beliefs and values - i.e., is ideological.

        If you can discern someone's political beliefs from examining his work, then I suggest you are not looking at science.

      •  Meteorologists (0+ / 0-)

        can bound error with a reasonable degree of success before issuing a prediction.  That boundary expands as the forecast lengthens, but it is well-behaved.

        Economists can't even make that claim.

  •  I've never believed any of that nonsense. (0+ / 0-)

    I remember when in grade school the teacher told us that the Moon influenced tides on Earth and right then and there I swore that I'd never believe any ridiculous claims that stuff out in space influenced us down here.  

    It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

    by Rich in PA on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 08:40:29 AM PST

  •  Oh, well, sure-- (11+ / 0-)

    of course you reject Astrology---you're a Libra!

    :D

    Fwiw, the year my wife was fighting ovarian cancer 'my horoscope' said not once, not twice, but three times that that was the BEST year of my life. Sorry, but no. It was absolutely the worst year of my life, hands down. Horoscopes are usually on the same page of the newspaper as the comics, so I got into the habit of getting a chuckle with them as well as with the comics. Each time I read the 'best year' thing all I could think of was "if this is my best year, I'm gonna kill myself when the second best year gets here..."

    The better I know people, the more I like my dog.

    by Thinking Fella on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 08:43:08 AM PST

  •  Remember when Nancy was running the show... (10+ / 0-)

    while Ron napped?  The stuff works, man. ;P

  •  How many in DKos believe a full moon affects the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    terrypinder, Catte Nappe

    behavior of humans and animals?

    Personally, I howl during a full moon but only if my stars are aligned correctly.

    •  Sure it does. The full moon makes more light (8+ / 0-)

      and on evenings when it's particularly bright, such as the October Harvest Moons, it can be like an extension of the day. People are active longer, and so are animals because many can see well enough to browse or stalk or do whatever in the full moon light.

      Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

      by GreenMother on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:07:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  People and animals may be more active during these (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Yasuragi, Catte Nappe

        periods due to increased lighting, but many cities and towns are now lit up with artificial lighting. Increased lighting in cities tends to reduce crime.

        Moonstruck! Does The Full Moon Influence Behavior?

        It happens at least once every month. Sometimes, rarely, it happens twice a month. Up there in the sky. It's a bird. It's a plane. No, it's a FULL MOON.

        Popular legend has it that the full moon brings out the worst in people: more violence, more suicides, more accidents, more aggression. The influence of the moon and behavior has been called "The Lunar Effect" or "The Transylvania Effect." The belief that the full moon causes mental disorders and strange behavior was widespread throughout Europe in the middle ages. Even the word "lunacy" meaning "insanity" comes from the Latin word for "moon."

        You may hear people say,

            "Just ask an emergency room nurse or a police phone operator. They will tell you that they are busier on nights when there is a full moon."

        Is there scientific evidence to support these beliefs? Let's look at the data.

        •  i have to admit, it's a good hypothesis. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Claudius Bombarnac, Yasuragi

          Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility

          by terrypinder on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:36:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Increased aritifical lighting also creates light (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mrkvica, Yasuragi, Claudius Bombarnac

          pollution. It also disrupts sleep cycles in people and animals too.

          But that's another diary topic.

          The Moon does has a powerful affect on our planet. How that influences us beyond cultural influences?

          The moon used to affect women's menstrual cycles, but I found conflicting reports that it still affects ovulation, but that perhaps artificial light overpowers the affect of the moon on the length of a period.

          http://www.biology-online.org/...

          Not sure.

          It wouldn't bother me that someone put stock in any paranormal or occult or religious belief, as long as that was never entered into a paper as if it were a legitimate part of the scientific method and so long as the experiment itself is ethical, because lets face it, sometimes people have allowed their bias or beliefs to justify some really awful experiments and public policy.

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:11:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  A full moon is not like a light switch. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Claudius Bombarnac

          There is gradually more light as we approach the full moon and then gradually less after it.

          It's not like it's pitch black the night before and after the full moon.

          "You don't have to be smart to laugh at fart jokes, but you have to be stupid not to." - Louis CK

          by New Jersey Boy on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:22:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  The funny thing about that is that both (3+ / 0-)

          police stations and emergency rooms are places where nothing significant can happen without generating a blizzard of paperwork. The records show no difference in frequency of events between full-moon nights and others.

          Unfortunately when smart and educated people get crazy ideas they can come up with plausibly truthy arguments. -- Andrew F Cockburn

          by ebohlman on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:24:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I do (4+ / 0-)

      With exactly the same strong degree of evidence that makes me sure that washing my car increases the likelihood of rain, lighting a cigarette in a restaurant (are there any where that still is allowed?) causes the food to be brought faster, and going to the bathroom makes the phone ring.

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:26:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  It appears that more reportable events are (0+ / 0-)

      reported to both the Press and the Polizei on full moons, but no causal link beyond enhanced nocturnal illumination has ever been discerned.

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

      by enhydra lutris on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:10:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  astrology contains a major flaw (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sidnora, Fonsia, mrkvica, Yasuragi

    and that is a misunderstanding of gravity.

     

    Yes, I’ve had my natal chart done. No, it’s not even close to what my personality actually is.
    It turns out that the gravitational pull on you by the indiduals in the room where your mother gave birth was greater than that of the planets- regardles of which ones were rising  or in cusp or whatever.  but that, I mean nearly unmeasurable.They were smaller, but closer.

    As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

    by BPARTR on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 08:52:58 AM PST

  •  Mad props for "12 Colonies of Kobol" ... (15+ / 0-)

    and republished to Science Matters.

  •  In some ways, it is like a (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greycat, ebohlman

    rhetorical "selfie."  For instance, if your are a Capricorn you look at your horoscope and see what it says about YOU today. It gives your existence meaning - makes you feel important.

    I know this isn't true of everyone, but there are some people who need validation of their self-worth. And recognition in a horoscope serves this purpose.

    Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket. Eric Hoffer

    by LynChi on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:00:32 AM PST

    •  Of course, due to the Forer effect (0+ / 0-)

      they'd get the same validation from reading a horoscope for any sign.

      Unfortunately when smart and educated people get crazy ideas they can come up with plausibly truthy arguments. -- Andrew F Cockburn

      by ebohlman on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:26:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  A question- (6+ / 0-)

    We all laugh and deride those who reject the scientific world, and embrace astrology.  We shake our heads in wonder that a majority of Americans believe such claptrap.  But believing in a god or gods, having even greater effects on the natural world -that's fine.  And to question those beliefs is considered positively impolite.

    As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

    by BPARTR on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:01:12 AM PST

    •  But in this politically correct society, now it's (0+ / 0-)

      impolite to question atheists.

      •  really? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sparhawk, mrkvica

        I guess you are correct.  Xtians don't question atheists, they simply assert that they must be amoral, and that without a fear of punishment they must have no moral compass.

        As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

        by BPARTR on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:28:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The "Xtians" I know would say that having a moral (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly

          compass comes from God, and fear of punishment is not what drives us to use it.  I'd say the same.

          My father was not Christian, and didn't give God much thought until late in life. Yet was one of the most moral people I know. I've met any number of people who don't believe in God and are decent and kind, and too often a lot more "Christian" than the ones braying their Christianity the loudest. It infuriates me how so many good Christian folk feel that anyone who says he/she doesn't believe in God is a stinking reprobate, whereas all someone has to do is SAY he/she believes in God and that person is AOK. It doesn't matter whether the person's actions comport with those of, I dunno, Jesus.

          Bill Clinton: Actually tried to do some good, but was pooped from the devil's backside nonetheless.

          W: Started a war based on lies, but is a fine, upstanding, moral fellow.

          I rest my weary case.

    •  The two "American" religions (5+ / 0-)

      Mormon and Scientology, are both cons, and were started by cynical self serving men who know that religion brought in more money from the marks, with less chance of getting arrested.

      •  We've got more than that. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pico, Yasuragi

        We've also given the world Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh-Day Adventism. The US in the pre-Civil War 19th century was particularly fertile ground the growth of sects.

        "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

        by sidnora on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:43:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  but, of course (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Yasuragi

        the "Major" religions are not cons...

        The difference between a cult and a religion? the number of adherents.

        As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

        by BPARTR on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:46:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  True, in a generalized sense, of many other (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BPARTR, Yasuragi

        organized religions as well. Generalized because the real underlying goals are power and control, the money is a beneficial side effect.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:14:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Blasphemy! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yasuragi

      No rapture for you!

  •  Astrology is only entertaining ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    koosah, Catte Nappe, Yasuragi

    ... when we like what it says.

    Once a co-worker's horoscope advised him to "take a Capricorn to lunch" so he asked, "Who's a Capricorn?"  Fortunately I was the only Capricorn in the room, so I got a free lunch out of it, and we took each other out for lunch on our birthdays for many years until I moved too far away to make it work.

    And my husband and I enjoy what the books (especially the Cosmo Girl's Guide to Astrology) say about how well Taurus and Capricorn get along.

    Anyway, my point is that when it's fun, it's entertaining.

    But as science?  Complete bunk.  

    •  I visited a Japanese temple where people are (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yasuragi, rduran, JBL55, Mayfly

      urged to take a fortune stick after paying a small offering.

      The amusing thing is that if you don't like the fortune, you just keep taking them until you do get one you like.

      Of course, you're supposed to pay each time, and for some mystical reason, the majority of fortunes are unfavorable.

      I kept the best one out of 3 because I had run out of money.  It said something to the effect of bad news soon, may get better later.

      •  What drives me nuts are fortune cookies ... (0+ / 0-)

        ... that don't contain a fortune.

        Oh, they have slips of paper inside of them, but the message is more of an adage or proverb than a fortune.

        My favorite one reads, "Your love of gardening will take on new meaning in your life," and that is absolutely true.

        If only the unexpected money that another fortune cookie assured me would arrive within the week had ever come ...

        Of course, you're supposed to pay each time, and for some mystical reason, the majority of fortunes are unfavorable.
        Wow -- mystical indeed!  ;-)
  •  It goes hand in hand with Intelligent Design (6+ / 0-)

    And Creationism.

    And a lot of other things.

    Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

    by GreenMother on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:06:06 AM PST

    •  Well, not quite. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      librarisingnsf

      Granted in the modern age when we have so much more information about the earth than people did when Astrology was first practiced (which goes back to the Greeks, at least) and more than when Christianity was started, it doesn't make sense to make a heavy investment in literal interpretations of astrology, but…  Out of all of the ancient mystical practices, I think that astrology was pretty sophisticated for its time.  Of course, I am a big fan of Greek Mythology and Ancient Greece as a whole because it was such a sophisticated society.  It only took a short time after Christianity took hold that people believed the world was flat.  The Greeks knew it was round and knew that the universe of planets had meaning.  They recognized that the earth was a part of something bigger and that was based on empirical evidence that there were planets and a sun.

      Astrology is not a science, but it did embrace math and science in ways that were very impressive at the time of its nascence.  There's something to be said for that - and in contrast to the newly minted Intelligent Design and Creationist crowds, I'd say a modern astrologer is still way ahead of the game compared to those people.  At least astrologers can name planets, do math, understand geometry and accept the fact that man is not the center of the universe.

      As for whether or not planets affect human life, there is decent statistical evidence that full moons with significant gravitational energy do coincide with incidents of wacky human behavior and the moon does control our tides.  

      Astronomically, Jupiter basically absorbs a lot of debris from the outer reaches of the universe - protecting our solar system from debris that could destroy earth.  I really find it fascinating that Jupiter in Greek and Roman philosophy was considered the plant of luck and protection.  How did the Greeks know enough about Jupiter to create a mythology that is so in line with the actual operational function of Jupiter in our solar system?  How did they know that Saturn was cold and Mars was hot?

      Anyway, I'm fascinated by ancient answers to questions that in modern society we take for granted having much more complete scientific answers to them.  We know now how hurricanes form and end up on whatever track they take, but it wasn't that long ago when people were just hanging around on an island and all of a sudden a band of rain hit, the next band hit, then the wind got mind bogglingly loud and powerful - sustained for hours and hours - then quiet calm and the sun emerged - then bam it all starts again with the wind in the reverse direction - hours and hours again of chaos - and then it really was over and everything was destroyed.  Imagine being those people who just were hit by storms with no concept of anything outside of their world.  You would have to create some sort of "god factor" to explain that kind of experience - people want "answers" -  that is in our DNA, I think.  When science isn't available or can't provide an answer, people turn to religion and mysticism.

      Anyway, FWIW.

      •  All religious beliefs are equally: (0+ / 0-)

        profound
        ridiculous
        unscientific

        Astrology is part of several different cultures and it makes no difference to me whether someone believed in a man that died and came back to life after three days, or that their moon sign has more significance than their rising sign.

        They are cultural things.
        The scientific method is  a late comer, because it began as an experiment in linear thinking, and sought to escape religious taboos, and superstitions that are found in every culture.

        Even science is not immune from these things, though hope springs eternal.

        Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

        by GreenMother on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 11:38:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  It's a pseudo-science. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eikyu Saha

    Just like Freud's ego psychology is a pseudo-science -- both floating abstractions, having nothing to do with reality, and that have an "answer" for everything.

    Best Scientist Ever Predicts Bacon Will Be Element 119 On The Periodic Table

    by dov12348 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:09:39 AM PST

    •  It may not be a science any more, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marina

      but there was a time when it was no less viable as a science that any of the other sciences that were ultimately displaced by better science.  Alchemy, phrenology, race science, Lamarckism, etc., all had roots in what we now identify as scientific method, as did astrology.  Astrology only survives vestigially because its premises turned out to be untestable.  Not even wrong, as Peter Woit would say.  Instead of calling it a pseudo-science, it might be better to call it a science that saw its day and now has been rejected, by science.  

  •  Do they even know what astrology is? (7+ / 0-)

    The linked article quotes the survey question as:
     "Would you say that astrology is very scientific, sort of scientific, or not at all scientific?"
    I can imagine any number of responders not having a clue what "astrology" refers to - it's got "sciency" sounding parts like astronomy and biology do.

    BTW - the link to that source article is messed up (captured some DKos URL with the MJ). It should be this
    http://www.motherjones.com/...

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:11:08 AM PST

  •  This is a very... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sidnora, Yasuragi

    ...logically constructed diary.  You must be a Virgo.

    Nancy Reagan's astrologer was running this country in the 80's.  I'm just glad that I'm a Libra, Saturn rising, because I was able to predict Black Monday in 1987 on the Friday before the market crashed.  My Tarot Reader is worth every penny I pay her.  Every penny!

    all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

    by 4kedtongue on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:11:43 AM PST

  •  On the other hand (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Nespolo, Catte Nappe, sidnora, nookular

    their knowledge of English may well mean they are confusing the words "astronomy" and "astrology".

    That's less worrying.

    Slightly.

    "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:11:49 AM PST

  •  Which form of astrology is your mom following? (0+ / 0-)

    Japanese, Arabic, Ayurvedic (Indian), Hebrew (yes there is one), African, Aboriginal, Native American, Classical Greek, Egyptian,Italian....  

    "Death is the winner in any war." - Nightwish/Imaginareum/Song of myself.

    by doingbusinessas on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:18:35 AM PST

    •  knowing her, probably all of them. :) (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marsanges

      she loves learning and reading about all of the world's religions. I grew up in a house with books from basically every religion that currently exists.

      Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility

      by terrypinder on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:19:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It couldn't have been a really conservative church (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Yasuragi

        Really conservative churches don't put up with atrology, tarot, or studying other world religions.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:34:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Once, on a first and last date years ago... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tampaedski, sidnora, Sparhawk, Yasuragi

    ...my date addressed me with:

    "What about Astrology?  I really believe there's something to it, what's your sign?"

    She was a hard science major, too.

    I don't think the horrified/disgusted squawk I replied with really translated into actual words.

  •  Are you sure the people being polled (3+ / 0-)

    aren't confusing it with astronomy? How specific were the questions?

    Why do I have the feeling George W. Bush joined the Stonecutters, ate a mess of ribs, and used the Constitution as a napkin?

    by Matt Z on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:22:31 AM PST

  •  The millenials are an odd group. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Catte Nappe, koosah, greengemini, Yasuragi

    I know a few. One asked me what the difference was between Democrats and Republicans. This kid has a college degree.

    Another thinks Ron Paul and libertarianism is grrrrEAT! and is majorly into conspiracy theory. Of course, I know people of my generation who are like that, too, but from what I have read these traits are not uncommon amongst that generation. Personally, I chalk it up to mediocre education and their growing up in a world of constant stimulation and distraction. I know I would have done much worse in HS if there had been an internet and social media in those days.

    The whole astrology thing has been around for ever in one shape or another: the Romans put a lot of stock in it, for instance. But for people to think it's science is really unsettling.

    Pope Francis: the Thumb of Christ in the eyes of the Pharisees.

    by commonmass on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:29:10 AM PST

  •  You say that you think Americans may be confusing (5+ / 0-)

    astronomy (real) with astrology (not real).  I think that's optimistic.  I think Americans can be easily convinced that anything that uses math must be "scientific" even if it uses math incorrectly or uses math for no particular reason.  

    I'm thinking especially of things like Homeopathy.  It creates  a sheen of legitimacy for itself by crunching a bunch of numbers and distorting some actual metabolic chemistry.  It's complete hogwash, but it seems legit because it pretends to back its claims up with math and science-like lists of substances.  

    When people are encouraged to think math is hard and the only math they are exposed  to is the type we teach for  standardized tests (rote memorization with little real comprehension) then it is easy to bamboozle them with anything by throwing a few numbers into to it.  

    Americans lack the ability to put any pseudoscience to the "Smell Test" because they lack the sense of smell that math comprehension would give them.  

    I say this as a former failed math student who feared math and avoided it all cost.  It's still not something that comes easily to me, but I recognize and appreciate the liberation I experienced when I finally understood it.      

    Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend who looked a girlfriend that I had in February of last year.

    by koosah on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:29:28 AM PST

    •  That's partly how intelligent design is defended (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      koosah, Yasuragi

      Theories about the changing speed of light, with "papers" chock full of math and physics formulae.

      “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

      by Catte Nappe on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:32:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe

        The same people who line up  to deny evolution and climate change are quick to enlist the help of their particular science-perverters who always come armed with mind boggling loads of trash statistics.  

        Somebody told me that you had a boyfriend who looked a girlfriend that I had in February of last year.

        by koosah on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:37:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  there's a huge overlap though (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          koosah, Yasuragi

          between those who accept evolution and climate change and those who think astrology is science, if you mix a bunch of polls together (it's in the 18-24 group.)

          I'm looking forward to the "thinkpiece" that unpacks THAT.

          Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility

          by terrypinder on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:54:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I'd have tipped & recced this piece (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greengemini, Powered Grace, Yasuragi

    just for teaching me the term "Forer effect". I didn't know it had a name, I just thought of it as "how to write a newspaper horoscope".

    As to retrograde motion, I have a solution: ship all those fuzzy minds over here to NYC for a few days, and we'll give them free rides on the subway. You can see "retrograde motion" down there every day of the week, any time the train next to yours is moving more slowly than the one you're riding in.

    "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

    by sidnora on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:33:11 AM PST

  •  well I think a part of that is that (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pollwatcher

    people think Biology
                       zoology
    etc. and confuse the  name with astronomy. They just know it Astro something ology.

    ology is a sufix meaning the study of. So naturally not so smart people will use the "astro" star + ology.
    Close but no cigar.

    •  Is this better? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yasuragi

      That people don't know the difference between Astrology and Astronomy?  Isn't astro-somthing-ology a pretty bad indictment of elementary school science teaching?

      •  Yes I would definitely argue that it is better (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Yasuragi, TexMex

        Mistaking words is a very low level type of mistake, cognitively speaking.  I have students who get gene flow and genetic drift mixed up all the time.  The similarity of the words is the problem, not a difficulty with the concepts.  A confusion about words for someone who understands the concept is easy to correct on the spot (making it stick is another question).

        "To see both sides of a quarrel, is to judge without hate or alarm" - Richard Thompson

        by matching mole on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 12:26:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Everything I loved about the Age of Aquarius is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yasuragi

    gone. Only the Stupid remains.

  •  Now wait just a damn minute! (0+ / 0-)

    Astrology is based upon observations of fact...

    Which is a far cry better than basing a life philosophy based upon a fictional story of a donkey, an angel, and a virgin.

    Suddenly, it dawns on me, Earnest T. Bass is the intellectual and philosophical inspiration of the TeaParty.

    by Nebraska68847Dem on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:40:33 AM PST

    •  actually... (0+ / 0-)

      the main tenet of what you are referring to does not rely on anything supernatural, and in the Gospel according to Markos, it is rendered as "Don't be a dick." You are perilously close to violating that.

  •  Is it possible people are just stupid? (0+ / 0-)

    Specifically, maybe when asked, as apparently they were

    "Would you say that astrology is very scientific, sort of scientific, or not at all scientific?"
    they confused astrology with astronomy.  It's not that they are stupid about astrology, but about the difference of that to astronomy.  Maybe the changes over time reflect changes in NASA's activities or budget when astronomy is more or less in the news.  Or maybe stupidity runs in cycles and stupid people don't know the difference .

    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

    by accumbens on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:42:29 AM PST

    •  There's a difference between (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Yasuragi, ebohlman

      ignorance and stupidity, and what we're dealing with here is 90% ignorance. Teach intelligent design in your public schools, and credence in astrology is what you're likely to end up with.

      "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

      by sidnora on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:51:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  People were believing in astrology long before (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sidnora

        they were teaching - or even talking about - intelligent design.  You might be right that it's ignorance rather than stupidity, but in this case it's a fine distinction.  As far as I know, they teach astronomy in schools and not astrology.  

        The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell

        by accumbens on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:00:17 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is true, but (0+ / 0-)

          when learned people believed in astrology, it was because they hadn't yet come up with a better way of explaining our relationship to the cosmos. When they teach intelligent design in public schools, it's because we have come up with a better way of explaining our relationship to the cosmos, but they don't like it.

          Basically, once you've swallowed one anti-science fairy tale (ID), why not swallow another?

          "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

          by sidnora on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 04:52:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  My favorite Dilbert (and a counter-thought) (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ender

    It's over 20 years old.  It still makes me go "hmm".

    http://dilbert.com/...

    Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

    by lostboyjim on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:47:31 AM PST

  •  There are some generalities in astrology (0+ / 0-)

    that can be drawn and can be fairly accurate.

    What sign you are born under may be indicative of some general observable personality traits common with others born under that sign in the Northern hemisphere, and where the person is raised in the Northern hemisphere.

    This has nothing to do with some magical astrological effect at all, however. It has everything to do with general weather conditions at specific points in early child development. Somebody born in early January is going to experience far more outdoor activities at six months of age than somebody born in late August. This will have some effect on personality development, though exact effects cannot be predicted while some general effects can.

    Certainly, this is an example of correlation (what sign you are born under) being confused for causality. It gives the hucksters a base point where some people will say, "Yeah, every Gemini I know is just like that." and will then buy into the rest of the baloney.

    Libertarianism is just Fascism with a facelift. Scratch the surface of Libertarianism and you will find the notion that corporations should rule supreme, just as it was with Fascism..

    by Walt starr on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 09:55:16 AM PST

    •  Has there ever been data to back that up, though? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo, Yasuragi

      It sounds like a reasonable narrative, but you'd be surprised how often reasonable narratives conflict with the evidence.  Is there any recognizable correlation in behavior between children who first experienced the outdoors at 2 months instead of 3 months?  at 6 instead of 10?  Does this first experience make such an imprint that it outweighs the fact that all children have experienced it by 12 months?  

      I'm just suggesting that, even if you take away the astrological elements from the story, isn't it more likely that people who read their horoscopes interpret themselves according to their zodiac "types", which might give the illusion of correlation?  Or even start emphasizing those elements they expect of their "types" as a sort of circular fulfillment?

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:04:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That would be more dependent on latitude than (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elmo, Yasuragi

      date of birth. North-south latitudes would flip the whole thing on it's head.

      Thus there would be less correlation between the relative positions of the stars and personality if your thesis was true.

  •  One of my favorite Thoreau quotes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    badger
    as the multitude read the stars, at most astrologically, not astronomically.

    75534 4-ever or until dk5

    by NearlyNormal on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:10:29 AM PST

  •  actually, the answer is rather simple as to why... (0+ / 0-)

    Americans have been "dumbed down" for so long now, that
    they hear the "ology" part of Astrology, and if they don't really know what the word means, they will just jump to the conclusion that it means the "study of" something..

    and is therefore a science.

    nice and simple really

  •  It turns out that America is dumber than a... (0+ / 0-)

    ...a box of rocks. And we're going to pay a tragic price for it. The Iraq fiasco was just the beginning.

    Religion, it ruins everything.

    What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she represents—and her supporters celebrate—the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance. SAM HARRIS

    by Cpqemp on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:32:28 AM PST

    •  This is a bit of a reach. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anotherdemocrat

      Did you see what I wrote? Astrology is huge in India. It's huge in Japan. Here's its a strange curiousity, but it did not lead to the Iraq War.

      I also didn't mention anything about religion outside of my own personal experience---which was, outside of my own resentment that I'm working through---somewhat harmless. It's not part of the diary.

      Dawkins is to atheism as Rand is to personal responsibility

      by terrypinder on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:48:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Astrology also becomes self-fullfilling by being (0+ / 0-)

    told year after year by an astrology-believing mother than I have Aquarius traits. Then, voila, confirmation bias kicks in and it's easy to start believing you actually have those traits, vague though they may be.

    I would almost be inclined to believe that there may be some correlation between the season of the year a person is born in and a tendency to like summer vs. winter activities. That is pure speculation on my part, though, based on a few anecdotes. But, at least I could imagine a physical mechanism for that kind of effect that would be more real than so-called planetary influences. However, I doubt that relationship could be shown statistically, because there are too many other variables to control for and many of those variables are highly correlated. So, count me as a non-believer in astrology.

    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 10:55:42 AM PST

  •  Belief in astrology is a data point in a wider (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Yasuragi, terrypinder

    range of coping strategies. The more chaotic you perceive your universe to be, and the more correspondingly helpless you feel because of it, the more likely you are to go looking for something that will at least try to assure you that there is some kind of pattern to the world, to your life, to the society around you, that could be used to predict tomorrow, if you only knew enough.

    To think that you will be more secure, more prepared to face the future, or that you will have more control over what the future brings you - that's a desire for a huge number of people. Maybe everyone, but I've got no data.

    We look for patterns that we can use to predict. The universe is notoriously parsimonious in providing them.

    The temptations of astrology; of religion; of wealth great enough to take control over our surroundings; of a stable society, no matter how coerced; of belonging to a group that you believe will support and sustain you through catastrophe and cataclysm; of an overall societal network that provides support through tough times; those are all, at some level, supported by the same general desires. They differ in how much effort one has to put into them, in how much anticipatory stress they allow one to avoid, and in how much they actually smooth our paths into the future.

    I've known a number of quite dedicated astrologers. Unfortunately, what they are best at, imho, is hindsight. They can almost always show you how events that have happened were predictable from charts that are correctly configured. What they haven't figured out yet is how to use those methods to predict accurately - but they're working on it. And no, I'm not being sarcastic in saying that - as far as I could tell, that's what they believe. So it fits the pattern quite well, even if from my standpoint it's pure bs.

    At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

    by serendipityisabitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 01:11:43 PM PST

  •  Yes, it's pure bs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    terrypinder

    having writ that, I used to be pretty good at reading the tarot for people.  I never took money for it, but I prolly could have.  It's all how it's presented on a mano a mano basis, (if you go to a fortune teller and look them in the face).

    Sometimes it can be comforting for people.  I don't know.  

    I have to thank a totally anonymous fortune teller for my skewed outlook on the whole business.  My one grandmother, not too long after coming to this country back in the 1920's, had a friend drag her to the aforementioned fortune teller, just for grins.  Her friend had her fortune told and when it was my grandmother's turn, the woman looked at her and said,"I won't do yours.  You don't believe."

    That woman is my hero.

    Die Gedanken Sind Frei--Hans Litten (Thoughts are free--Hans Litten)

    by Powered Grace on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 01:45:55 PM PST

  •  My greatest astrological conundrum (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    terrypinder

    occurred when someone asked to do my chart.

    "I don't believe in astrology," I said.

    "Oh, that's just because you're a Pisces," came the reply.

    Honestly -- what can you answer to that?

    Great piece, terrypinder.  And thank you.  

    My sister likes to attribute things to Mercury being in retrograde.  Someone said it to her once, and it felt like a good reason.  "But it's an optical illusion!" I shout every time.  But it makes her feel better (even as she realizes it's bunk), so I really should stop.  ;)

    If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to. -- Dorothy Parker

    by Yasuragi on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 03:39:18 PM PST

  •  Want an interesting perspective on the subject (0+ / 0-)

    From the opposite hemisphere? Listen to the first 5 minutes of this podcast from today's 'panel' on national radio in New Zealand.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/...

    'A civilization flourishes when people plant trees under whose shade they will never sit' Greek Proverb

    by janis b on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 08:36:45 PM PST

  •  Predictable (0+ / 0-)

    All these comments here. Must have touched a nerve. I'm glad astrology is so roundly condemned.

  •  back in the 50s (0+ / 0-)

    when my Dad started studying astronomy, he says most people he talked to thought he was studying astrology.

    His BFF was friends w/ the Vatican astrologer & even got a private audience w/ the Pope....

    Who is mighty ? One who turns an enemy into a friend !

    by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 04:18:38 PM PST

  •  The only useful horoscopes (0+ / 0-)

    Are in the Onion.

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