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I have, in case you haven't noticed, a certain minor problem with insomnia that becomes particularly acute at this time of year when the light is short and changing fast, the weather sucks, and my schedule is stressful.

My body rebels which manifests itself in various physical symptoms of which this is one that I wish to address now.

Because it's not usually an inability to sleep at all, but rather a vampiric cycle that expresses as surprising energy and stamina when it's dark and ennui, lassitude, and fatigue during the day.  However much sleep I actually get it's never enough nor does it leave me refreshed.

This results in missed deadlines and inattention to details, and increases my overall level of anxiety and depression because I have unrealistic expectations.

Or at least that's what my therapists say.

Now eventually the seasons and I reach an accommodation where I have enough time in the morning to make my marks, nap, and continue with my work.  We are not yet at that point.  Yesterday was dismal and foggy with intermittent rain.  The days that were sunny were cold and the snow glare was worse than the summer solstice (you know, you have leaves and stuff, not a 250 Watt light bulb flooding through your windows all day long).

And then there are the unusual distractions (O Canada).

This will get worse before it gets better but like most things it will pass.

And I'm not really complaining, I could have far worse problems and I'm sure many of you do.

So What Is Your Problem?

Originally posted to What is Your Problem on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:04 PM PST.

Also republished by That Group.

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Comment Preferences

  •  SAD: Social Anxiety Disorder, Seasonal Affective (16+ / 0-)

    Disorder, or Seek And Destroy

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:11:39 PM PST

  •  I have had problem on and off sleeping (17+ / 0-)

    Sometimes I go to bed and sleep for a couple of hours then wake up and can't get back to sleep.  Sometimes I just can't fall asleep initially.

    I found a melatonin compound that works really well for me.  It's Schiff Melatonin Ultra.  You can get it at Costco. I started with one tablet worked pretty well, after one week I started taking two.  Works very well for me.  Sleep all night.  If I do wake up I can go right back to sleep.  Wake up without feeling weird or groggy and feel like I got a good nights sleep.

    Some people report vivid dreaming with melatonin.

    I checked it out with my Naturopath and he says go for it!!

    That's my story

    My Brothers Keeper

    by Reetz on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:15:09 PM PST

  •  I swear man (11+ / 0-)

    I wish I could sleep more than 3-4 hours at a time. Something else I want to sleep until the alarm actually goes off. Pisses me off when I wake up and look at the clock only to realize I am 5 minutes early.

    Oh and, I swear man.

    Victim of the system~Bob Marley

    by LaEscapee on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:15:53 PM PST

  •  Sleep apnea? Checked for that? (14+ / 0-)

    That would explain it.

    Also, acute anxiety about anything else.

    I speak from dismal experience.

  •  Would an anti-depressant help? (4+ / 0-)
  •  ever since i got that memory foam mattress (11+ / 0-)

    sleep problems have nearly disappeared, not to mention the major reduction in chronic pain around the neck and shoulders.

    still can't sleep anywhere but home, however.  hotel rooms are the worst, i think.

    hope springs eternal and DAMN is she getting tired!

    by alguien on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:20:08 PM PST

  •  I'm having late winter ennui (13+ / 0-)

    Just not seeming to care about a fucking thing.  I'm trying to go with it and blame it on the harsh winter we've had here.  The last couple of days an existential fog is enveloping me.

  •  It's poker night... (9+ / 0-)

    I did not win last time. I hate when that happens. I blame the dealer, he hates when I do that, but if I lose tonight, I'll do it again.

    I shave my legs with Occam's razor~

    by triv33 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:31:03 PM PST

  •  Really awful day yesterday. (12+ / 0-)

    The transformers for our building blew out at the college, so there was no power in the building.

    I had driven to school not knowing this, of course, only to arrive and see a sign on the door which said, "This building closed all day."

    So I drove home and checked the website…where strangely there was nothing about classes being canceled, so I called the Academic Dean's secretary who told me that classes were going to be held starting at 10am.  So I rushed back to school to arrive for my 10am class a few minutes before it was to begin…and they were just then posting a message on th door to our building saying where classes had been moved to.  So I went to the basement of a different building and waited…for two students to show up (out of 7).  They finally posted the location changes on the website 45 minutes after the classes were supposed to start.

    After that class, I went to the Dean's office and refused to leave until they told me where my noon class would be held.  It was in the basement of th library…in what was basically a hallway with a portable whiteboard.  All my usual students showed up for that class…the location of which was finally posted about 11:55am.    

    My 4pm class was held in the game development lab.  Half the students came to the class.

    So I couldn't go in to my office all day…so I was homeless…which made me terribly cranky.  The only thing I had to eat all day was a bag of Fritos out of the library's vending machine.  I was in a terrible mood when I finally got home.

    And midterms are on the event horizon.

    Today's diary:  Hate Crime on Campus

  •  I can't rec the diary, anybody else (6+ / 0-)

    having this problem?  The rec button won't show up on my screen.

  •  it's not you ek; it's a decade+ of sleep w/o rest (13+ / 0-)

    the pressures, the stresses, the inability to fit in life the way we used to do...

    we don't know what's around the corner anymore. innocence lost, ideals stalled, soundness gone silent... little league and springtime don't sooth anymore, the holidays a struggle. family gatherings, vacations, jobs, kids going to college and having families of their own... life. it had a rhythm, it seemed reproducible, and there were good guys...

    so here we are, we grunts on the ground, struggling every day, every day, to throw light into this darkness surrounding us.

    it's not seasonal. at least i don't think so.


    “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

    by pfiore8 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 03:55:31 PM PST

  •  Epsom salts (6+ / 0-)

    And maybe a touch of melatonin=best sleep ever.

  •  I will have trouble sleeping (5+ / 0-)

    if I am worried about something or if my mind has been very active :(

    I occasionally have taken an over the counter sleep aid.

  •  Walking and daylight exposure (9+ / 0-)

    I have severe insomnia due to PTSD and light exercise like walking and exposure to daylight help. I just have to force myself to get outdoors in the Fall and Winter months but it does work.

    Before anyine suggests drugs to me, been there, done that and have the scars to prove they don't always work. Nor to drugs solve the root problems for insomnia.

    "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013

    by TheMomCat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 04:22:54 PM PST

  •  One of my doctors is Robert Thomas, at Beth (10+ / 0-)

    Israel, in Boston.

    Your symptoms sound like mine, a combination of severe sleep apnea, with SAD, and delayed phased sleep disorder -- aka a total fractured sleep cycle. With proper treatment for all three I've been able to get back to a healthier cycle.

    If you are waking up exhausted, with headaches, and feeling groggy during the day, you should be checked with a sleep study for sleep apnea, or hypopneas.  When you muscle tone relaxes during certain parts of your sleep cycle you airways collapse, your blood oxygen levels plummet until your nervous system jolts you with adrenaline to wake you up.   Blood pressure can spike, up to 300 or more time a night.

    If you are exhausted in the morning and try to sleep longer it can get worse. Prior to treatment I sometimes slept up to 18 hours a day, but also had major clinical depression.

    It sounds like you also have a fractured circadian cycle.  Your brain as a cluster of 20,000 nerve cells calls the "suprachaismatic nucleas" which regulate all circadian rhythms. Receptors in the back of you eye, interspersed with the retina monitor ambient light.  Ideally, your sleep zone should be completely dark starting at say, 1100pm until 700 am, when you should have light. SAD is one syndrome when you do not get enough light.

    A major problem is this cells are not automatically entrain with one another. Some control the repair of internal organs, such as the kidneys which are supposed to do routine maintainence during the night.

    Light therapy can cure this, and a new generation of table top lights tuned to 10,000 lumens and a wavelength of around 350 nanameters seems best (I would have to look this up.) Even just 30 minutes a day in the morning in the background on a regular basis should be sufficient.

    But, anyone with Bi-Polar should not do this, as it can stimulate mania. More intense, excessive use can trigger mania even in normal people.

    The goal is to have at least several months of calibrating the start of the daily cycle at around 700 (or some time that is exactly the same every day.)

    They prescribe me ambien to take at 11:00 pm but this has lots of side effects. My doc says .3 to 1 mg of melatonin prior to sleep time works just as well. And, I find this to be true.

    Both ambien and melatonin have short "half-lives" so I wake up almost exactly 5 hours later more refreshed than usual.

    My previous psychiatrist prescribed Adderal (time release amphetamines) to help wake up, but they can make it difficult to go to sleep, so he prescribed lorazepam (a benzo-diazapam) to go to sleep. But, I find these have a hang over effect for up to 11 hours, so melatonin is actually better and has fewer side effects.

    Your body will automatically produce melatonin to help you sleep, however, will not do so until two hours after the last exposure to light.

    Even a two to three minute exposure to light, while going to the bathroom, will disrupt natural melatonin production as well as stimulate some of the neuron of your surprachaismatic nuclear, which are tuned to activate at different wavelength and durations of exposures.

    If you need a nightlight, keep it as low a wattage as possible like below 2 to 5.

    Also, SAD responds well to anti-depressants. I take a combination of wellbutrin, and cymbalta the later is also good for pain.  I used to take SSRIs but they inhibit libido

    The worst kind of light for disrupting your SCN is are the blue-white wavelengths of the sort in you TV and computer.

    Ek, I hope we are friends enough that I can make a personal observation that you are almost always awake and using you computer after midnight, and up to 1:00 am or later.  This is not good for you cycle.

    Yes, I do it but, I have an army of doctors from the Harvard Medical School, and a background as a 1 percenter from MIT so they will give me any meds I want to control my cycles. If you are off in the wilderness, you may find it difficult to get such an exquisite and effective cocktail of psychopharmacological management tools.

    But, melatonin can be purchased over the counter. It has a two hour delay.

    But, without use with a regular light therapy routine is will not be as effective.

    My girlfriend spent over $1,000 for your light therapy boxes, but the new ones recommended by Beth Israel Hospital can be purchased from Amazon for $49. I can look up the exact model they recommended for me if you like. I haven't ordered it yet, because I've been using my girlfriends. You should only start with 10 minutes a day for the first two weeks, and increment by five minutes a day.

    But, you should consult a doctor, because all of these therapies, except for Melatonin can have series side effects if misused.

    This is one reason we are moving to Florida. Because in our heart of hearts we are "naturalists" so don't really prefer to take more than 10 to 12 different types of major pharmaceuticals a day.

    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 05:30:00 PM PST

    •  Oh, I left out that I use a BiPap machine for (8+ / 0-)

      sleeping and even napping. For me, falling asleep without it is a life threatening event.  Most people with untreated severe sleep apnea as bad as mine die of heart attacks or strokes in their sleep which are attributed to natural causes.

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 05:34:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rec'd for this (7+ / 0-)
      Because in our heart of hearts we are "naturalists" so don't really prefer to take more than 10 to 12 different types of major pharmaceuticals a day.

      "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013

      by TheMomCat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 05:49:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hoped someone would notice that, TheMomCat. (7+ / 0-)

        You wouldn't believe how many little gems like this I embed in my writing that no one even notices.

        This one is only true for me. I used to believe psycho-pharmaceuticals should only be used for recreational purposes, but it is hard to argue with science, and empirical evidence.  

        My girlfriend, has two graduate degrees from Harvard, on in biology, and one in psychology, and has had the same Harvard Medical School psychiatrist that I had, who believed consciousness is based entirely on a sea of neuro-chemicals that can me improved by infinite combinations of interventions.

        She has a decade head start, and also unlimited financial resources, so has accumulated a stock of about 50 or more "natural" supplements for boosting brain function, as well as virtually every other organ.  In fact, she has supplements for organs that haven't even been invented yet.

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 05:59:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  Wow, that is one big fantastic sexy organ. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ek hornbeck, poligirl, Wee Mama, blueoasis

            Let's see how long it takes for commonmass, or ridemybike to come see what this comment is about.

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 06:07:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  commonmass... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HoundDog, poligirl, Wee Mama, blueoasis

              is a member of the Illuminati as am I.

              Should I show you the silly walks?

              •  I don't know about the illumati but I am a (4+ / 0-)

                hard core Monty Python fan. Just in the last 36 hours I've posted or writing about the Spanish Inquisition, The Parrot Sketch, and the Incompetent Translator sketches.

                I've never told anyone this before, but 9.5 years ago, when I first came here I didn't know it was a offense worthy of a lifetime banning, so I created a bunchy of characters inspired by Tom Tomorrow's This Modern World.

                My book/comic strip/internet experience was going to be named Cyberdawg, about a genetically enhanced genius dog who escaped from one the MIT biology focused fraternities. The kids had added Einsteins brain DNA to talk, who could talk too.

                He and his band of friends, many of which you know under different names, although you don't know it was me practicing how to develop characters.  

                The adventures were to take place across many different websites.

                One has a name which is a variation of Torquamada who would appear after one of the other characters would say "I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!"  

                Then this other character would show up and say, "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition."

                My nature is so mild mannered, polite, conflict adverse, and reserved I wanted to try out different personalities so I could better portray different characters. I noticed that front pager, I think it was either Hunter or Armando, I can't remember, but back then one of them was so foul mouthed and arrogant that the Wall Street Journal quoted several of his paragraphs about obscene things he would do to a pile of mud as evidence for how internet blogs were leading to the decline of civilization.

                So, this Torquamada based charactor, (whom I will not identify as I want to rescue the source code out of that account before they freeze it.) was to be a more aggressive, less neurotic version of myself. I ended up writing several hundred posts on the misdeeds of Donald Rumsfeld, many of them on the rec board.

                I had another who was a happy go lucky, young woman, and other characters. It was amazing how much friendlier and open people are to  women than men.

                After I learned I could be banned, I had to choose one to keep writing from, and although I had position HoundDog as sort of an older pedantic professor type, who was less popular, or liked by folks here, he was closest to a real person.  

                I asked Meteor Blades if I could apply to Markos to bring these characters back for the entertainment and good of the community, but MB said Markos would never go for it.

                But, recently Markos did one of his "Ask me anything columns, where he confessed he had trouble socializing on any topic on which he wasn't an expert, like his aquariums, or political science. I old him that was one of the best reason he should set up a sock puppet to practice different modes of social interaction where people didn't know his fame, and he would discover some of the different crowed of great people we have here. (I may even have mentioned you.)  He said he does this on other sites.

                But, I may see an opening to propose that for a very select group of folks, who are totally honest about it, we allow them to have multiple ids.  Like this option would only be open to those on the first page of the total lifetime recs, (I just passed 38,000 so am now on it,) and only those who have more than 750 posts with at at least 20% of them recommended.)

                And, only be used for positive goals. Like I do with HypnoToad.

                So, Markos may be more open to this than MB.  If this doesn't work, I might try claiming I have multiple personality disorder, and that limiting me to just 1 UID is discrimination, under the Americans with Disabilities Acts.

                But, 9 years ago, I've had conversations with you from other UIDs, and I'm happy to say, you were just as friendly and helpful to all as you have been to me.

                Oh, I think I told you before my real name is Anon E. Moose.

                I've been slowly revealing this story, under the Hydrant, and Now For Something Completely Different groups, which I founded for this purpose. But, sadly, very few people here pay any attention.

                The secret to most of my rec'd posts is to completely subvert my real fun loving personality to an almost robotic imitation of the front pagers, with an opening paragraph, a few blockquotes, and a kicker paragraph that sticks to the facts.

                I had decided to leave the Hounddog UID behind a year ago, when I disappeared and come back as Sue Doe Nimm, but then Christie thing sucked me in. Plus, my natural self-esteem is so low, HoundDogs 26,000 comments, 750 posts, 38,000 recs, etc. has actually become an important part of my ego. Which is so pathetic it fills me with despair, but it seems to be the case.

                So, I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm hoping Markos takes up my recommendation that he sets up a secret sock puppet so he can better understand what it is like here for the new members, who are not famous. If he does, I'm sure I will be able to convince him to let me identify, and use a few of my old characters. (They never created any trouble, or were HR'd for anything.)  

                Some of my best posts are back there and if I could include those in my count I'd be a whole lot higher on all the lists.
                Maybe even enough to be considered an important enough and creative volunteer writer here that it would be worth bending a few rules for.

                The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:03:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Can you get off your meds and go to sleep (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ek hornbeck, HoundDog, poligirl

                  now? You confuse me totally and I hate that. :)

                  What a frigging character are you playing now? I suggest you try "the sleeping beauty". She slept happily ever after for a hundred years and then was kissed back to life ... or something... I forgot... but she slept really, really good.

                  Good night.

                  Washington DC needs a Moral Heyday at the Capitol. All Your Moral Mondays Do Belong to Us! Connect! Unite! Act!

                  by mimi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:17:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, what I was trying to tell ek, is after trying (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    poligirl, mimi, ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

                    all the heavy duty alternatives, any of the rest of you would get arrested for having, the funny thing is .3mg of melatonin works better than any of them.  You can wake up in 5 hours with no hangover, which Lorazapam stays in me in sedative amount until noon.

                    Ambien has all sort of side effects including memory impairment, as well as causing many people to sleep walk, sleep eat, and even go out driving without being able to remember it. And, it is addictive I believe.

                    I really am a naturalist. All of these thing have dangerous side effects, and virtually none of them have been tested in the combinations that they give my girlfriend.

                    When they test these for safety, the controls exclude people taking other things.

                    Over a decade ago, I was part of a research test group for a Phen-Fen weight loss program, at the Deaconess hospital. One is an amphetamine, the other an antidepressant. Over two years I lost 80 pounds.  Both of those drugs are okay alone, but in combination can cause mitral valve regurgitation so the research study was canceled, and I gained it back.  

                    But, this is one reason they are  can get Adderal today, which could send the average person on the street to jail for 10 years for just possessing. They felts so bad about any damage they may have done to me, they they are trying to get back on my good side.  ( :-) I'm just teasing you a little bit in these last few sentences because I can't help myself.

                    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                    by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:32:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Tease away ... I guess often I don't understand (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ek hornbeck, HoundDog, Wee Mama

                      the tease anyway :-( ... but I kind of get upset over medication misuse, abuse, overdose etc. My niece had a cocktail of medications to take the last years before she died of her multiple cancers and I remember very well how much she complained about the chemical bombs thrown at her, making her stronger, making her sleep, making her all sorts of things, just making her NOT more healthy or heal her.

                      So, I guess, I shouldn't have come in here. Brings back the wrong associations. Unfortunately my own memory is so bad that I can't remember anymore much of what you write and comment on. All I remember that I never had the impression you wrote something "weird" or "outrageously inappropriate" and  I know you comment always very well and wrote stuff that is interesting though I would have to look up a couple of your diaries. (Should get brain boosting meds ... your SO still has some left? ... can you send me some? ... I kind of not am a 1 percenter MIT attached to Harvard mastermind and remember times when I had no health insurance. But I am on medicare now, so may be I can afford now the brain booster meds.)

                      Anyhow. Good Night. Thanks for talking and teasing me. :)

                      Washington DC needs a Moral Heyday at the Capitol. All Your Moral Mondays Do Belong to Us! Connect! Unite! Act!

                      by mimi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:57:06 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thanks Mimi. I'm agreeing with (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        mimi, ek hornbeck

                        your natural skepticism about excess meds.

                        My girlfriend takes here night meds and totally loses consciousness withing 20 minutes. For the next several hours it is impossible to wake her.

                        If there was a fire when I wasn't here she would never wake up. Even if I was here, and we have a fire I don't know that I am strong enough anymore to lift he, but would have to drag out out.

                        I tell her all the time she has to ask the doctors to cut back, so she is now not telling me what she is taking.  She is also embarrassed about it.  One of her knew medicines, she hasn't told me about is Aracept, (or something like that, which I looked up and was for people with incipient Alzheimers,)

                        She will not tell me the others, so I can't lecture her about it. She has major, major issues about being bossed around, especially by men, and also all sort of issues, about loss of control.  

                        Aging has not been kind to us. But, what can we do?

                        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                        by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:17:12 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  I appreciate your honesty... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TheMomCat, mimi, HoundDog

                  and I don't mean this judgementally, but I'm firmly grounded in my singular character.

                  I've known a lot of actors and they try on masks constantly, it's part of their nature.  Equally there is an audience that invests in the portrayal and doesn't understand the illusion.

                  Though pseudonymous I've always aspired to a kind of emotional honesty that expresses my actual character.  Since I have no credibility except what you see I've always felt an obligation to stay close to the truth in that my definitive pronouncements are falsifiable, replicable, descriptive, and observable.

                  You have different goals, not bad per se, just different.

                  I think this particular environment is a dangerous place to express them bluntly and I would encourage you against it if you wish to continue.

                  Just advice.  My opinion of you is undiminished.

                  •  All of those charactors in the past are parts of (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ek hornbeck

                    me, and I have always been honest as HoundDog. That's why I chose that UID to continue after giving up the rest 8 or so years ago.

                    I know what you mean about this environment. It's sad though. I love it here, and we have so many unique and special dimensions.

                    But, there are also so many really strong forces aligned in focused directions that are at real war with each other.  

                    When I  first came her, I imagined it as a kind of fantasy land escape. But, for many it is a reality, with all the same pluses and minuses.

                    After a traumatic divorce, 10 probate battle, and several health crises, including depression, I lost my house, my companies, had to declare bankruptcy, was even homeless for a while, and withdrew from all my social communities in real life out of shame and humiliated.

                    Creating a small fantasy world here, was a vital part of trying to heal myself, that is difficult to let go of. I always obey the rules. If I give up HoundDog, and come back as a more respectable real person, I will not use the HoundDog UID any more. That was my intention back in January of 2013.  But, the Governor Christie scandals occurred and I hadn't had a chance to think through the master strategy of what my new ID would be.

                    So I'm using HoundDog now as if it were me. Sometimes I pretend to be a real Dog, or Cyberdawg, the MIT bio-fraternity, genetically modified dog, in a very  mild way.  No one seems to mind, or notice. Thanks for your advice ek, I've always respected you as one of the finest real person here.

                    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                    by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:29:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't have multi-personality disorder, I was (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ek hornbeck

                      just following up joke which I made years ago, that I thought they should let people have as many UIDs as they can successfully sustain separate personas for.

                      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                      by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:40:26 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  The first time I heard that played, it was in the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ek hornbeck, HoundDog

            church of the father of the young man I had my first crush on, and the young man was practicing the organ. He didn't know I was sitting in the back of the church. The music just washed over me in great waves of beauty and hormones.

            Oh, youth.

            Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

            by Wee Mama on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:01:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I only have an MD & a PhD (8+ / 0-)

          in emergency medicine so I just treat the aftermath of all those pharmaceutical interventions. Personally, I try to avoid anything that has a warning that says it will make be suicidal or bleed to death.

          "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013

          by TheMomCat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 06:05:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  We are lucky to have folks like you around. (5+ / 0-)

            The LD50s of the meds I take have safe margins of error and I have no suicidal tendencies.  My S.O. is closer to the edge and I worry about her.

            My bigger concern is hepatic load. I've read that mixing even a few advils with alcohol can kill your liver.  

            I have a lot of body pains, but can not stand any opiate based medications which make me irritable, and dull my mind. I was cycling through combinations of aspirin, advil, and Tylanol but they all have problems with long term use, so my doctors wanted me use Cymbalta instead. But, at full therapeutic dose it wipes out my libido and orgasmic capacity so I only take 1/3 of the normal does, and we are trying a Wellbutrin as an adjunct. I had the same issues with SSRI's which I stopped taking as I felt they diminish my motivation, some of which seems sadly proportional to anxiety.

            But, I have four docs who regularly monitor just about everything about me, including complete panels of blood tests every 6 months.

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 06:26:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Advil and alcohol is not as bad as Tylenol (6+ / 0-)

              with, or withou,t the alcohol. With Advil (ibuprofen), it's more of a concern over gastric irritation rather than liver toxicity. So long as you eat, don't drink in excess on a regular basis and have no history of bleeding ulcers, you aren't at that much risk. Acetaminophen (Tylenol) is a whole different problem because of liver toxicity and hepatic failure rather than gastric irritation. It is a huge problem in children.

              "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013

              by TheMomCat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:16:23 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, I listened to a recent NPR show over the (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, ek hornbeck

                controversy about the labeling of Children's Tylenol, and some sad case where a doctor had written a prescription for a certain number of doses a day, but the nurse, or parent got confused and this poor two year old lost her liver.  She got a transplant. But, this was caused by very small doses that an older child might have, and which hundreds of millions of parents have sitting in their medicine cabinets.

                The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:43:48 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Every OD that comes into an NYC ER (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ek hornbeck, HoundDog

                  gets a Tylenol level because there are no symptoms of toxicity until its too late. It's one of the reasons the FDA required the lower daily dose. The other was cumulative effect in older patients and alcoholics.

                  "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013

                  by TheMomCat on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:47:47 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  why don't they take it off the market when we (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

                    have aspirin and advil?

                    I was taking 12 300 mg aspirin a day for pain, and went in to get my prescription for Zantac (is that that stomach acid thing?) upped when they finally asked me about my aspirin use.  That's when they told me aspirin every day for decades at that level can cause stomach bleeding.

                    So I switched to Advil. But, I think it is an NSAID or at least has a similar risk of heart problems. Cymbalta works great, but I don't like losing libido, so will not go up to the 60 mg/day that they want me to, but only 20mg.  

                    Chronic pain is not the worst thing in life.

                    But, if I speed type here and on other blog sites it takes my mind off the pain. Which is one reason I write long comments even though I know no one reads them.

                    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                    by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:03:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  well, she should sue Harvard, obviously they (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HoundDog, ek hornbeck, poligirl

          abused her brain to the point that she needs now pharmaceuticals to boost her brain function. For whom does she need to boost her brain? For Harvard? She should request a new brain for free from them. If I were her I would boost my right leg muscles to use it to kick the Harvard Schools in the butt.

          A what a frigging world...

          Washington DC needs a Moral Heyday at the Capitol. All Your Moral Mondays Do Belong to Us! Connect! Unite! Act!

          by mimi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:07:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am sure you are correct. Two years ago, she (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mimi, poligirl, ek hornbeck

            had been overly medicated to such an extent I'm sure she had an induced psychotic episode.  I mean heavy duty things like Seraquel, Trazodone, Adderall, several kinds of benzo-diazopans (sp?) etc. But, she had been a severe alcoholic for about 15 years, and had a pancreas infection that almost killed her. She stopped drinking (eight years ago), but I think part of her doctors strategy was to substitute less toxic meds to keep her alive.

            But, when she had stayed up four whole days in a row, when we were trying to move from one house to another, after the deadline, she had this crisis. When I insisted she go to the hospital she kicked me out, and we broke up for a year after having been together for over 10 years.

            I was miserable for over a year, but posted 450 post that year 2012. We got back together February of 2013, after she went of Seraquel (which I think may be one of he worst drugs around,) ( this is also when I mysteriously stopped writing - this is one of the reasons.)  So the last year has been great, but one of the ground rules is I can't interfere with her meds. But, she takes way too many.

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:21:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  oh my, if all this is true, then I just have (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HoundDog, ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

              big hugs for both of you and hope that you stay together and have more great years ahead of you.

              I am so glad my son refused to take the medications the VA wanted him to take when he was "blowing off his anger" due to his what people call PTSD and is in reality a mixture of huge disappointments in his life plus the frigging war in Iraq, plus anxieties, plus, plus, etc.  

              Washington DC needs a Moral Heyday at the Capitol. All Your Moral Mondays Do Belong to Us! Connect! Unite! Act!

              by mimi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:40:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  When my son broke his back by falling 30 feet out (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ek hornbeck, Naniboujou, mimi

                of a tree, he exploded four of his vertebrae and was put back together with steel rods. He still can not feel the middle third of his body. He came 1 millimeter away from losing his ability to walk and still has a bone chip in his spinal chord that could do this if it slips. But, that can not get it out without risking loss of his ability  walk and feel the bottom third of his body as well.  

                After being in the Spalding rehab hospital for the amount of time our insurance would allow they gave him a 90 day supply of Oxycodone and wished him luck.  These are highly addictive.

                He then broke his back again three years later, and went through this cycle again. After he hit the limit and doctors cut him off cold turkey, he could get them on the black market.

                But somehow, through sheer will power and inspirational lectures from me, he has completely got off all of these, and is now back in college doing really well.

                But, sometimes when I don't take sleep meds I wake up in the middle of the night with nightmares crying thinking of all the poor people out their being failed by our primitive medical  and insurance systems. ACA is a step in the right direction.

                But, until we vote nearly all of these Republicans, and about a third of the Democrats out of office, we will not get the major improvement to health care that are possible with technology, but not possible to finance. And, what about the other people around the world.

                It's very sad. I get suspicious of the level of compassion of anyone who does not have sleep problems, and at least mild depression given the state of the world and human affairs -- and suffering.

                The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:53:42 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Kudos to you and your son for being able (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ek hornbeck

                  to get off Oxycodone. He needed those and I would be as upset if the doctors had left him without adaequate pain medication after this accident. What a pain.

                  I agree with your last paragraph. Though I have really no sleep problems, but then I can afford to sleep when I need it, so far. Not everybody has this luxury and/or capability. I know.  

                  Washington DC needs a Moral Heyday at the Capitol. All Your Moral Mondays Do Belong to Us! Connect! Unite! Act!

                  by mimi on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 07:15:58 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  This is true, except for the part about Deaconess (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ek hornbeck, mimi

                giving me anything I want after their disaster of  a weight loss study. They have not offered zilch, not even followup monitoring to check for the heart problems involved. Dr George Blackburn was the Principal Investigator if you would like to put him on your list of doctors to avoid.

                But, other doctors have picked up the slack, ironically, including Beth Israel, who then later merged with Deaconess.

                The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:56:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  10 to 12 eh? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TheMomCat, HoundDog, poligirl

      That seems like a lot.

      I have many doctors, but only 4 (6 if you count vitamins) prescriptions.

    •  For how long do you have these sleeping (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ek hornbeck, poligirl, HoundDog

      disorder? When and why did they start? Looks to me that the Harward doctors and being a 1 percenter from MIT is a recipe for disaster, sorry your story just upsets me.  I feel lots of empathy, but just listen to your conditions is already painful. How on earth can you take 10 to 12 medication at once? No wonder your body revolts.

      I am sorry you have these problems. Have you ever tried to walk for an hour (so that you feel refreshed, but physically exhausted) before going to sleep?

      What happens to you, if you wouldn't take ANY medication? Did you try that? May be just an ordinary sleepy tea?

      Why don't you really listen to your heart and move to an island with no exposure to civilization? I bet you will sleep like a baby.(But don't move to Hilo, HI or Haiku, HI. The cookie frogs and roosters can really get on your nerves.)

      This comment was tough to read.

      Washington DC needs a Moral Heyday at the Capitol. All Your Moral Mondays Do Belong to Us! Connect! Unite! Act!

      by mimi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:02:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I love frogs croaking. I'd love to move to an (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ek hornbeck

        island but can no longer afford it. I lost everything in a major depression, and before they discovered by sleep apnea was so bad, I couldn't really function.

        A lot of these meds like blood pressure, cholestoral, aspirin, etc, are apparently good for me. Heart disease runs in my family and one of my little brothers has already had a major heart attack.  

        So I'm doing pretty well, mimi.  I'm sorry if I depressed you. I am doing so much better now that 10 to 15 years ago, you wouldn't believe it.

        I'll find a way to get back into action. Thanks for your concern.

        How is your son doing?

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:38:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I mean increment only five minutes after two (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ek hornbeck, TheMomCat, poligirl

      weeks of stability and no side effects, not per day, which might be a disaster. (This might be why its better to get medical advice only from doctors. lol)

      The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

      by HoundDog on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:11:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I try to be really careful about sleep cycles (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ek hornbeck, poligirl

    due to the bipolar disorder, although sometimes there is no way to manage that, but the real problem, it seems, that I dream too damn much. I know the dreaming = REMS, but on many days, I just cannot wake up enough to even get out of the dream, and when I do, I'm exhausted from all the things I was doing in the dream.


    Anyone who scoffs at happiness needs to take their soul back to the factory and demand a better one. -driftglass

    by postmodernista on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 06:59:32 PM PST

    •  I'm told... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      postmodernista, poligirl

      by a psychiatric nurse friend of mine, that dreams are a sub concious reaction to actual stress factors and present themselves in a symbolic way contrary to reality.

      At the time I was having waking dreams (that is to say waking up in a dream state) of waking up in my best friend's apartment and he and all my other friends were vampires.

      Not really much to interpret there, merely an example.

      •  Most of mine involve stuff, and moving it (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poligirl, ek hornbeck

        which we do, or should do more of, both at home and the antique shop. Your phrasing sounds likely- I suppose I'll just have to move more stuff around during the day, and hope that I'll be exhausted enough to not move things in my sleep.

        Thank FSM that at least I'm not sleepwalking again- that was always a hell of a surprise in the morning.

        Anyone who scoffs at happiness needs to take their soul back to the factory and demand a better one. -driftglass

        by postmodernista on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:31:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I used to have recurrent dreams of missing an (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        postmodernista, ek hornbeck, pfiore8

        exam, turning up in the wrong room, opening the exam booklet and realizing I knew nothing about it, realizing I'd missed all the lectures, and so on. Those stopped when I got tenure.

        Then there was a period of travel dreams: turning up at the airport without a passport, not being able to find my flight, getting off the plane in an unexpected place, and so on. Those stopped when I started discernment toward ordination.

        Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

        by Wee Mama on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 08:20:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  sleep has always sucked for me. i have... (5+ / 0-)

    fibromyalgia and that fucks with the sleep cycle and exacerbates everything.

    i used to (and maybe will again soon) take 1-2 Sonatas with 1-2 1mg ativans  and that was the first combo in 20 years to let me get to sleep and stay asleep. then i couldn't afford pills and lost insurance to boot.

    i've found that 6 mg of melatonin, a dose of benedryl, and nighttime tylenol has been an OTC combo that works at least decently, though i worry about the long term tylenol taking.

    hopefully i will be able to get back on the sonata and ativan combo. it's low dose so i'm not worried about addiction, i'd just like to actually get real sleep without killing my liver in the process.

    sleep has always been a major issue. my sleep time is sacred to the point of being almost religious to me... :D

    "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

    by poligirl on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 07:42:02 PM PST

  •  I hate 100 comments. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TheMomCat, pfiore8
  •  party pooper here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ek hornbeck

    I put small children to shame.  Go to sleep before the bulb cools off.   Sleep all night most every night and sleep pretty good......with few nightmares.  

    We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sat Feb 22, 2014 at 09:16:32 PM PST

  •  Interesting discussion here. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pfiore8, ek hornbeck

    I guess I don't have nearly the problems others do.

    I find drinking more than usual makes me wake up sometimes.  Probably contributes to snoring, though I don't think it's sleep apnea (have no evidence either way - have never been tested).  Job, personal and other contributing stress factors have disrupted my sleep in the past. I sleep well most nights after a yoga session and light dinner. Having a hot tub/spa soak is a help.

    We recently did a detailed financial review that shows we could live adequately and not starve, barring catastrophic illness, until we are 90, so that puts a different perspective on things like work. One's attitude changes when you could either walk away or be let go, and life will be OK. Ms. 47 and I turn 59 this year.

    On the other hand, with our kid off to college, we have decided to sell the bigger house and are moving to a smaller place. The clearing out and throwing/giving away of stuff is both physical work and has a stressful element.  And my 94 yo Mom has taken a turn for the worse, so I will be going to see her and siblings next week.

    So, those are my problems. Not life-threatening, but stress-inducing, and thus I am here tapping away at 3:18 AM local this early Sunday morning.

    Watch those doses, folks.

    I'm part of the "bedwetting bunch of website Democrat base people (DKos)." - Rush Limbaugh, 10/16/2012 Torture is Wrong! We live near W so you don't have to. Send love.

    by tom 47 on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 01:24:16 AM PST

  •  I sleep well but strange. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ek hornbeck

    That is to say, my body has set up defined sleeping periods, and when I sleep then I sleep well. Now, I always hurt when I wake up, but that is the fibro.

    Generally it works out that I wake up naturally around eight am, and then wish to sleep again from about two to four pm. If I do that, I can then get up and be productive again until about nine pm, and I generally go to bed and fall asleep almost instantly around midnight.

    But then currently I am doing a lot of physical labor (all greywater from two of the three sinks has to be carried away in buckets for disposal) and so I am exhausted when I go to bed.

    I have been so exhausted lately that I haven't even woken for my hot flashes; apparently I just pull off the covers in my sleep now.

    When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

    by Alexandra Lynch on Sun Feb 23, 2014 at 07:18:07 AM PST

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