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Patrons watch coverage of the U.S. Supreme Court ruling on the Defense of Marriage Act at the Stonewall Inn in New York June 26, 2013. The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday handed a significant victory to gay rights advocates by ruling that married gay men
A majority approves.
Rich.
Simply affirming what their faith teaches about sexuality in context of the gay rights debate really is, and will increasingly be, seen not as evidence of one’s poor thinking, but rather as evidence of one’s personal evil. I told him that I understand it, because I’ve seen the same thing play out in my profession. I mentioned someone I know who works in a New York newsroom, at a senior level, who lives in the closet as an Evangelical, out of fear of her colleagues learning the truth — this, given their openly expressed spite for Evangelicals. I mentioned another friend, a gay-marriage supporter from another New York newsroom, who told me not long ago that there is no room there for dissent on same-sex marriage. All opposition to the new orthodoxy is taken as a confession of one’s bigotry.
1. If you are too afraid to let people know about being a Christian, then you are a shitty Christian. The Jesus of the Bible didn't hunker down in a cave afraid to be found out. He literally gave his life for his beliefs, and you cry because someone says that your bigoted beliefs are bigoted? So either buck up, or modernize. No one gives the Flat Earth Society the time of day. Religions that don't adapt to the realities of the modern world will face increasing hostility, and rightly so.

Clinging to the notion that two people who love each other can't marry, because of the Bible, is as quaint, absurd, and obsolete a notion to a fast-growing majority as the Islamic fundamentalist belief that women shouldn't be seen outside of the home without burqas.

2. We live in the United States, that place with the founding documents that proclaims that "all men are created equal," and "no state shall make or enforce any law which shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." For a crowd that loves to bandy about their pocket Constitutions and revolutionary tricorn hats, funny how those founding principles get glossed over in the name of "religious freedom." Well, it's against my religion ("Reality-ism") that Republicans get the right to vote. But alas, they still get to vote, because "freedom of religion" doesn't mean what they think it means.

3. When gay marriage opponents get bullied into suicide, they can whine about how terrible they have it. Until then, shut the fuck up.

The same people that have spent pretty much forever demonizing and delegitimizing homosexuality are now crying because it's their turn to face a smidgeon of the hostility, in a country where two-thirds of its citizens still do not live in states with marriage equality?

But the problem for the whiners really isn't that they can't wave their bigotry in public without repercussions. It's that they're a rapidly shrinking minority, whining themselves into extinction as society passes them by.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:20 AM PDT.

Also republished by Kossacks for Marriage Equality.

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Comment Preferences

  •  if they would be more comfortable (25+ / 0-)


    in a theocracy, they should consider relocating to Somalia.

    "Kossacks are held to a higher standard. Like Hebrew National hot dogs." - blueaardvark

    by louisev on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:23:19 AM PDT

  •  Nobody cares what they believe. (43+ / 0-)

    Seriously, they might be ostracized if they're all over the place about it publicly, but that would probably be the case for being over-the-top about any belief system or philosophy.

    The problem comes in when you VOTE and ACTIVELY TRY to mess with other people's lives, per your beliefs.

    Would any of them empathize with the Amish if they voted and constantly complained in the media that they were 'ostracized' because they continuously voted against electricity and combustion engines?

    While you dream of Utopia, we're here on Earth, getting things done.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:23:56 AM PDT

    •  This is the point (13+ / 0-)

      It's not the having values; it's voting to enshrine your values in law that ticks people off.

      Of course, all laws rest upon someone's values. It's when your values aren't accepted by most of the community that you get into trouble.

      Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

      by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:43:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  there is sympathy for the belief (6+ / 0-)

      The real issue in a place like the US, where we really are always trying to do better, is that the belief seem to change to  support whatever oppression they want to impart at the moment.

      For instance, while the boy scouts is not a specifically religious organization, they do provide a good example on the arbitrary level of the hate. The boy scouts claim that by discriminating against young boys who will not identify as straight, and against adults who identify as gay or bisexual, they are supporting the traditional teachings.  However, the traditional teaching are also pretty specific about premarital sex.  Any boy scout leader who is not married and cannot declare himself a virgin should not be allowed to be a leader, if the rules are to be applied consistently.  And this is from Jesus, Mark7:20, who talked generally about fornication, and pretty much never about the gender of those fornicating.

      We see the same thing in the military.  Military service provides a pretty sweet and unique set of government benefits for those who volunteer and are able to manage to move up the ranks.  I know people who, even if not career, are going to collect about a half million in tax payer funded benefits over several years.  So it is not surprising that religion is used to limit those who can collect the benefits.  We have had limitations of race, gender, and sexual orientation.  Why should a fit, education, gay man be able to take the place in the government dole we call the military of a flabby straight white male who barely graduated high school.  It is unacceptable.  That is why highly qualified gay or lesbian military personnel were kicked out the force on barely any evidence, while rapists were and are allowed to progress though the ranks and collect a lifetime pension. A unmarried male who fucks every girl he sees is somehow more moral than a person who chooses a partner and sticks with them.

      Somehow Newt Gingrich is more moral than any gay or lesbian person on the planet.

      The government is allowed to pick and choose who will succeed, and for the past couple generation that choice was made on the basis of sexual orientation.

      •  The Boy Scouts did vote to allow (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JerryNA

        openly gay Scouts last year and the first openly gay Eagle Scout was recognized early this year.  Their position on openly gay leaders is about to implode for several reasons.  The  reason they used to give for not allowing openly gay leaders was the fear of pedophilia.  Of course, there is no link between homosexuality and pedophilia, as their own experience demonstrates -- they had a major pedophilia scandal in the 1980s when openly gay scout masters were prohibited.  They even stated when the lifting of the ban on gay scouts was made that even though they weren't allowing gay scout leaders, they recognized homosexuality had nothing to do with pedophilia.  So, they basically have no justification for the ban on openly gay leaders.  There are other things that will occur.  There will be a gay scout who, when he reaches 18, will want to be an adult leader.  How can they say that the day before his eighteenth birthday he was a member in good standing of Scouts and the day he turns 18, having done nothing any different, he suddenly isn't?  
        They are also continuing to lose corporate sponsorship, and they had a large exodus of units in the Bible Belt areas after the ruling last year, so the people who are left are more likely to want to allow gay scout leaders.  It's going to come, and sooner rather than later.

        •  i also understand (0+ / 0-)

          the desire to defend the boy scouts.  but honestly it is like defending the Catholics, or second baptist church.  For years they said that allows gay boy scouts would be promoting sin, all while promoting fornication by minors and adultery by adults through refusing to dismiss boy scouts that were not virgin and leaders who were divorced.  This is fact.  This is bigotry, pure and simple.  And that they are still having this conversation mean that they continue to be bigots, albeit bigots that are so greedy that they are willing to compromise their values for a 20 gold pieces.

          •  If they change their practices, I think (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JerryNA

            they should not be condemned.  Would you want everyone in the world to think all US citizens are racist because we had segregation 50 years ago?

            As far as the Church is concerned, despite Pope Francis's nice words, they have not changed their actual position on homosexuality.  All the Pope has done is say, "let's stop talking about this so much."  And there is no indication that they will change.  The Boy Scouts have actually changed their policies, and they will change them further in the future.  That's the difference.

            •  "Let's stop talking about this" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raspberryberet

              is a couple of steps in a much better direction.

              First: it's a signal for the faithful to re-direct their energies away from stirring up this conflict. And not having the Catholics in this conversation will pretty much automatically change the dynamics of it, as well as creating a precedent for other religious conservatives to take their leave of it, too.

              Second: It's an acknowledgement that the Church has exactly zero credibility left on issues of sexuality. Their own house is so deeply out of order on this that it's not a conversation they should be having with anyone for a very long while.

      •  Rec'd for: (0+ / 0-)
        Somehow Newt Gingrich is more moral than any gay or lesbian person on the planet.
        That piece of shit!
  •  righteous rant, man. (19+ / 0-)

    RIGHTEOUS!


    "Legalizing pot won't make more pot-smokers. It will just make fewer criminals. - Me

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:28:13 AM PDT

  •  All men are created equal (5+ / 0-)

    That's in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.  The Declaration is simply a list of reasons why the original 13 colonies wanted to leave the British empire.  If the colonies hadn't won the war, it would be remembered only as a rant by a group of traitors.  

    I would argue that it's the Constitution which is our founding document, since it creates our government.  

  •  Shut the Fuck Up Indeed (13+ / 0-)

    Nice diary.  Personally, I wonder if it's really how policymakers on the right actually feel, or just a way to pander to a shrinking electorate.  But the thing I'm really happy for is that either way, they're losers (and traitors to the constitution)

  •  Really dislike number 3. (4+ / 0-)

    I realize there is a snarkiness involved, but bullying is not the stuff of jokes.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:31:32 AM PDT

    •  My reaction was the exact opposite. Number (24+ / 0-)

      3 says it all - the rest seemed redundant.

      There's nothing snarky or jokey about number 3.  It's a statement of fact.  They're whining about having to rein in their expressions of bigotry while LGBT have been forced into committing suicide for decades.  Compare what they "suffer" to what LGBT have suffered.  When their lives are being made so miserable, they'd rather die than live with it, then maybe I'll start feeling sorry for them.  Even though they would still have the option of simply dropping their bigotry and being accepted.  

      They're whining, not because they're being bullied, but because their bullying is not longer being accepted, much less applauded, as they'd gotten used to.  Nope, Number 3 is spot on.

      •  I could buy that more easily if we were talking (0+ / 0-)

        about individuals, ie, the bullies.

        You are painting with a broad brush.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:59:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All they're required to hide is their bullying. (10+ / 0-)

          If you think someone is simply afraid to let their co workers know they attend church, then I'll simply tell you I think you're being incredibly naive.  The vast majority of Americans, including those working for the NYT, I'm sure, attend church.  The only thing they need to "hide" in order to not be ostracized is their bigotry and desire to bully.  I have no sympathy.  None.

          •  Point missed. That's fine. (0+ / 0-)

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:19:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, point not missed. The point is that if it (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Old Sailor, dewtx, Mr Horrible

              was just a matter of being an Evangelical, it wouldn't pose a problem for other than a tiny, tiny fraction of people.  The only time it becomes a problem for the vast majority of people is if being an Evangelical is used as a justification for being a bigot.  And then it's the bigotry that causes the friction, not the religion.

              •  Not quite as easy as that, although I think that (0+ / 0-)

                I agree in principle.

                The big problem is that "bigot" gets tossed around pretty loosely. For some people, if you oppose gay marriage, you must be a bigot.

                If you express the opinion that gay sex out of wedlock is a sin, then you must be a bigot.

                The first of those is likely to be right a fair percentage of the time.

                The second of those is likely to generate a lot of false positives because Christians believe that heterosexual sex out of wedlock is a sin, in fact, that each of us is a sinner who needs forgiveness. Sin, more or less, is sin and your sin is not fundamentally different from my sin*

                *Someone here on DK told me that there was a sect somewhere that didn't believe that, but I haven't had a chance to follow through.  I've never encountered such a denomination, but I am far from an expert on Christian denominations.  Westboro Baptist may believe differently, but they give no serious sign of ever having read the New Testament and I can't imagine being Christian without that.

                LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:25:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Haven't you seen my newest kitten photos? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Old Sailor

                  I know you  LOVED  this morning's  kitten photos, but our First Temple of Kitten Photos  has 138 new  kitten photos that you MUST LOOK AT NOW! UNLESS YOU'D RATHER GO TO PRISON OR BE STONED TO DEATH! (after the sonogram)

                  Few people care if you mention your kitten photo obsession once a month, but if you bash people over the head with kitten photo laws, many people object.

                  1A says that fact-free beliefs are all yours, and the government deals with only fact.
                  Thus, 1A prohibits theocracy.

                  Harmless vs non-harmless mental illness is an edge case.

                  ♥ Repeal the Capital Gains, Carried Interest & Dividends Entitlements bequeathed to 'more special' taxpayers.

                  by in on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 08:17:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            librarisingnsf, dinotrac, TKO333

            What's missing is the unsupported assumption that being Evangelical means having to be homophobic or opposed to marriage equality.

            When I was in my 20's I was in therapy, mainly to help me come out of the closet. The therapist I saw was part of a small gay-oriented counseling group. The group was entirely secular in nature and purpose but the founder and head of the group was an Evangelical Christian. And he was gay.

            •  Yup.... (0+ / 0-)

              Nail.
              Head.
              You got it.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:03:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Sure - and he didn't need to hide that he was (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Old Sailor, sfbob

              an Evangelical, right?  Because he was trying to bully anyone.

              That's my point.  They don't have any need to hide their religious preference; all they need to hide is their desire to bully LGBT.  I know many, many people, and I can't think of one who would be mean to someone because they profess to be an Evangelical.  I can think of quite a few who would be mean to someone who claimed to be an atheist.  And I can think of some who would be mean to someone who claimed to be an Evangelical and that being such gave them the right to bully someone else.

              No one's missing that at all, except the person whining about the need to hide it.

              •  There is also the unpleasant reality (0+ / 0-)

                that being a self-identified Evangelical Christian and also gay does not make that person all WarmFuzzy. There used to be two Evangelical gay churches in this area. They were fine on LGBT issues in general, but they were every bit as harsh and dogmatic in their religious supremacism as their anti-gay brethren.

                Don't meow, or I'll take your picture.

                by Old Sailor on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:42:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  MCC churches are funny (0+ / 0-)

                  They tend to be filled by people who are gay and grew up in religiously fundamentalist or evangelical families (not always but often). The individual churches also, as I understand it, have a great deal of autonomy. So some are virtually Episcopal-lite while others are pretty darned extreme. There's a huge MCC church in the Castro. I don't think I need to tell you where most of its members fall on the political spectrum.

                  The point is that it is only in the mind of an Evangelical bigot (or any other sort of bigot using religion as cover) that being Evangelical or otherwise religious requires one to hold to particular views on anything other than some very core theological beliefs, most of which have intrinsically little or nothing to do, one way or the other, with various political points-of-view.

                  In the case of the individual who founded the group I patronized, while he was not my therapist I had numerous occasions to interact with him. He was pretty darned level-headed and progressive.

      •  I feel the same way (9+ / 0-)

        when they start whining about "persecution" -- when people are being tossed into prison solely for being Christian then they can talk about "persecution". But it's not persecution to have people tell you you're full of shit -- it's merely the reverse side of the "free speech" coin, where people might disagree with your opinions.

        There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

        by Cali Scribe on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:00:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'd also like to point out... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gustynpip, TKO333, Mr Horrible

        that some of these piece of shit preachers have taken to going to Africa to try and impose laws that would allow for the imprisonment of gays and even their execution.  

        They had no success here so they figured they would continue the fight somewhere that they had the support of a majority of bigots on their side.

    •  Hmm... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor, Chrislove, Larsstephens

      In what world was that a joke?

      •  I see. (0+ / 0-)

        Well then, never mind.

        Personally, I wouldn't wish bullying on anybody, especially as I think that lessens the impact of the act.  I especially wouldn't wish it on any group of people, most of whom probably haven't bullied anybody.

        LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

        by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:04:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Who was (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Old Sailor

          wishing bullying on someone else?

          •  This is the internet, and strangers reading words (0+ / 0-)

            without inflection or body language can misread intent, but:

            When gay marriage opponents get bullied into suicide, they can whine about how terrible they have it. Until then, shut the fuck up.
            is what I'm talking about.

            Being an old-timer who remembers the days of the ACLU fighting for the right of the American Nazi Party to march in Skokie, I place a value on free speech that makes your comment read like "Don't say anything til somebody bullies you to death."

            LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

            by dinotrac on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:17:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Read it again ... there's no joking there (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor, Chrislove

      Kos was being as serious as a heart attack. Gay people have been bullied to the point of suicide. Their (our) oppressors have not been and therefore have to claim to discrimination now.

  •  Us queers are vile, fascist bullies (22+ / 0-)

    because we think cake shops should be willing to sell us cake.  Ho-key ...

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:32:13 AM PDT

  •  Have to Question point one. (9+ / 0-)

    Being a good Christian means making money for your pastor to buy his New York Times Best Seller status. Revealing your Christianity makes Jesus cry over your lost income because open bigotry is not a ticket to profit.

    The early church is full of stories of the Romans refusing to work alongside Christians. Many early Christians met in secret to avoid letting their co-workers know of their beliefs out of fear that they would no-longer shop in their stores or promote them to better paying positions.

    The martyr Ronaldus actually lost his job for being a Christian. The Forum Times quotes him as saying, "It was like they just threw me to the lions!"  

    Hard, hard times.

    "You know, just because the thing I saw wasn't there doesn't mean there wasn't something there that I didn't see." Ann Althouse, Conservative Thoughtmeister

    by Bill Section 147 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:33:05 AM PDT

  •  Even more fundamentally (28+ / 0-)

    In most workplaces, at least most large ones, your religious and political views are not a topic anyone wants to discuss, from any direction.  

    And I can only imagine how someone who is pro-choice, for instance, feels when they work for a small business in Mississippi that is owned by an evangelical Christian.  "In the closet" probably doesn't begin to describe it.  

    This is a normal aspect of the world of work.  It's not a special hardship endured by Evangelicals.

  •  Was told the other day that the 14th Amendment (17+ / 0-)

    didn't count because it wasn't written by the founders who were "divinely inspired."

    Sigh.

    The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of those, in turn, despise the republic and endanger liberty. - Omaha Platform, 1892

    by Rikon Snow on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:33:41 AM PDT

  •  It goes beyond that, kos. (16+ / 0-)

    Now, they want "special rights".  Yup, the lie from the 90s ("the gays want 'special rights', when all they have ever wanted was equal rights) is back.  Only, now those same bigots who declaimed against "special rights", want them for themselves, so they can continue to be bigots, and have the imprimatur of the state on their bigotry.

    With the Decision Points Theater, the George W. Bush Presidential Library becomes the very first Presidential Library to feature a Fiction Section.

    by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:35:39 AM PDT

  •  their tears taste so sweet . . . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TKO333

    (snicker)

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:36:08 AM PDT

  •  Sounds like the beginning of "a beautiful" meme (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, sfbob

    to me, Louie.

    After 65 years, the ONLY thing I know absolutely and positively about life is that the check is SUPPOSED to be in the mail. That's it. Nothing else. PERIOD.

    by franklyn on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:37:05 AM PDT

  •  Allow Me to Expand Item 1 a Little (13+ / 0-)
    Clinging to the notion that two people who love each other can't marry within your sect, because of the Bible, is your prerogative. Clinging to the notion that two people who love each other can't marry, Attempting to impose that view on others outside of your sect because of the Bible, is as quaint un-American, absurd, and obsolete a notion to a fast-growing majority as the Islamic fundamentalist belief that women shouldn't be seen outside of the home without burqas.

    "A famous person once said, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.' But as I once said, "If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like." – Max Headroom

    by midnight lurker on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:37:07 AM PDT

    •  Much better. (nt) (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Marti

      The fruits of the toil of millions are boldly stolen to build up colossal fortunes for a few, unprecedented in the history of mankind; and the possessors of those, in turn, despise the republic and endanger liberty. - Omaha Platform, 1892

      by Rikon Snow on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:51:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Really don't care about their religion. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blue aardvark, Eyesbright

    All religions tend to reinforce the cultural beliefs and/or biases of more fervent followers, to some extent.  That is, religions are reflective and not merely prescriptive.  IMHO.

    If they are not being unfairly baised against from a legal rights standpoint, then anything they whine about is only meaningful to me if they are being treated unfairly.

    And, I find little unfairness in other people putting bigots down for being biased assholes - i.e., a state of being which is only reinforced by their religious affiliations.

    "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

    by wader on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:39:31 AM PDT

  •  A closet evangelical? Isn't that an oxymoron? (14+ / 0-)
    evan·gel·i·cal adjective ˌē-ˌvan-ˈje-li-kəl, ˌe-vən-\ : of or relating to a Christian sect or group that stresses the authority of the Bible, the importance of believing that Jesus Christ saved you personally from sin or hell, and the preaching of these beliefs to other people
    To whom do you preach your beliefs to while in a closet?

    Enough is enough! I have had it with these motherfu*king snows on this motherfu*king plain!

    by shoeless on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:40:33 AM PDT

  •  A person who feels the need to hide their (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raincrow, a2nite, Gentle Giant

    faith from their co-workers is being bullied no matter what that faith might be. If you substitute "Pagan" for "Evangelical", how do you feel?

    And it's pretty historically ignorant to say Christians should be out-front with their beliefs no matter what given the catacombs beneath every major city of the Roman Empire, more or less, where the Christians hid when the Emperor du jour got a little more kinetic in his paganism than was healthy for them. For the first couple of centuries AD, Christians hid their faith from time to time.

    I'm not excusing anti-gay bigotry. I'm calling on kos to recognize that evangelical Christians are also a minority who can be persecuted, even if you don't much care for them.

    Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

    by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:41:50 AM PDT

    •  A person's religion is not an appropriate (6+ / 0-)

      subject for the workplace.  If you're so into your religion you can't be quiet about it for 8 hours a day, then you probably need to just get a job in it.  And I feel the same about a Pagan or an Evangelical or anyone else.  I work with numerous people for years and don't have an iota of idea of what their religious views are.  Nor do I want to.

      •  So said every religious bully every place every (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mojo70

        time, including the Christian ones trying to get Jews to not complain about the Christmas tree in the lobby.

        The person Kos describes knew how her co-workers felt about religion; they were free to talk. She was not. So their religion was appropriate for the workplace; hers wasn't.

        That's pretty much the definition of bullying, no? I can do it, you can't, because I've got the power.

        Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

        by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:17:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry Blue (0+ / 0-)

          I usually agree with your posts, but I think you're avoiding a couple of important points here.

          (1) If one's religion preaches hatred, then it's not acceptable in any workplace I've been a part of. If one want to hide one's hatred behind the veneer of religion, fine, but it's still hatred.

          (2) I don't see any evidence in the story that the individual's religion wasn't acceptable in the workplace, aside from one recounting of one other employee's negative statement. Unless s/he works in a 2-person workplace, there needs to be more evidence to support the contention.

          (3) This is, of course, the basic tension of liberalism: must we defend illiberal speech?

          As Aaron Sorkin put it in The American President -
          "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours."

          •  One person's hatred is another person's values (0+ / 0-)

            You wish to make expressing certain opinions less protected than other opinions? That's illiberal, as you go on to point out.

            And it seems pretty damn clear that this person was outnumbered, her co-workers spoke disparagingly of her faith tradition in front of her all the time. Don't try to make that somehow OK because you don't like what her tradition teaches.

            I mentioned someone I know who works in a New York newsroom, at a senior level, who lives in the closet as an Evangelical, out of fear of her colleagues learning the truth — this, given their openly expressed spite for Evangelicals.
            That's not limited to opinions on gay marriage. That's ongoing routine belittlement of one faith by a majority of workers in a workplace, to the detriment of an adherent thereof. It's not OK.

            Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

            by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:00:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I know it's easy to dig in heels when a discussion (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Old Sailor

              ensues, but I find it hard to believe you just accept a third hand account of what's going on in a particular workplace, particularly when the story is told for a political purpose.  I'd like a few more details of what happens before I'm ready to judge the co workers.

          •  Again, I quote Kos's quote (0+ / 0-)
            I mentioned someone I know who works in a New York newsroom, at a senior level, who lives in the closet as an Evangelical, out of fear of her colleagues learning the truth — this, given their openly expressed spite for Evangelicals.
            That's not being asked to rein in anything. That's your coworkers routinely talking about how they don't like your faith. Substitute any other religion and how does it scan?

            Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

            by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:01:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you just keep religion out or work (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Old Sailor, debocracy

              this would not be a problem.  Another point, any religion that preaches bigotry deserves to be disparaged. It is not bullying to call someone out for their hatred.

            •  OBL: 'I promote bombing airports' (0+ / 0-)

              Muslim co-workers: 'you're fundamentalist free speech is evil, OBL.'

              ♥ Repeal the Capital Gains, Carried Interest & Dividends Entitlements bequeathed to 'more special' taxpayers.

              by in on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 01:09:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  sorry Blue (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Old Sailor

              Still doesn't hold water.

              The individual is still complaining that others are prejudiced toward her because of her own prejudices, or, more correctly, the prejudices often and openly expressed by members of the group with which she chooses to affiliate.

              And if her ability to keep her job, her ability to get married, or any other right is not under threat because of her perception of her colleagues' "spite" for evangelicals, then she's not facing the same issues that we're talking about here.

              There are no states that have passed laws that ban being an evangelical in the newsroom. There are no states that have banned evangelical marriage.
              You can't require people to like you, but you can get laws passed that require them to allow you basic civil rights.

        •  You're mixing apples with oranges here. There (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Old Sailor, koosah

          might well be an occasion for which religion becomes relevant, but that is very rare.

          The person Kos described here CLAIMS she can't speak of her religious views, but that her co workers do.  I find that claim unlikely.  It's typical of the kind of story I hear all the time from the super religious about how they're persecuted.  Invariably, it turns out they think their religion sets them up in a separate category that deserves special treatment.  

          I remember when my family's church wanted to start a school.  You should have heard the horror stories about how the local government was discriminating against them by making it impossible.  Yeah, discriminating against them by enforcing the fire code and other safety regulations.

          I just find it very hard to believe New York news rooms have time to be discussing various individuals religious beliefs.  Most people consider that a private matter.  I happen to be an atheist.  I know a LOT of people and work closely with many.  I doubt that more than a half dozen have a clue what my religious belief is.  Nor do I know what theirs are unless some specific reason, such as time and day of a meeting conflict, comes up.  It's just not something that's typically a topic of discussion among people unless they're friends.

        •  or her xian co-workers disagree (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Old Sailor

          with her Biblical Definitions™

          Her co-workers may be majority Christian, and don't consider 'biblical definition' assholiness to be holy as she does.
          but since most of  her Christianity jibes with the views of other Christians, she won't be persecuted by Christians.

          ♥ Repeal the Capital Gains, Carried Interest & Dividends Entitlements bequeathed to 'more special' taxpayers.

          by in on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 12:58:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  omitted word and ambiguity, fixes (0+ / 0-)

            to be as holy as she thinks her assholiness is

            ♥ Repeal the Capital Gains, Carried Interest & Dividends Entitlements bequeathed to 'more special' taxpayers.

            by in on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 01:03:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  "Can be" persecuted, but rarely, if ever, are (5+ / 0-)

      in the United States.
      I don't care to count the number of times I've told an evangelical friend that cops to being persecuted when his town hall won't put up a creche that it isn't persecution if he can still put one up on his own lawn.
      I'd speak to the regulations of gated communities as well, but I'd have to invoke Godwin.

      "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by Gentle Giant on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:12:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The false claims of victimization by those who (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gentle Giant

        want to establish a state celebration of their faith - is not at all the same as people who bring their, for want of a better word, "small town" faith to the big city and find out that their co-workers think they are just a little nuts.

        'Taint comfortable, and 'taint right. People that we hereabouts like to stereotype as being crybabies can in fact be victims. It's analogous to paranoids having real enemies, no?

        Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

        by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:20:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  "are also a minority who can be persecuted" (0+ / 0-)

      Minorities have been persecuted over the years, but this persecution is an example of people not living in accord with the principles of our country.

      An all-too-frequent example, but all countries fail to live up to their ideals much of the time.

    •  'evangelical Christians are also a minority' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor

      ... in Egypt, and I read with hope, then sadness, of the treatment of Copts from 2011 onward.
      but in today's USA, evangelicals aren't treated badly by general US Christians. And general Christianity is not a minority.

      ♥ Repeal the Capital Gains, Carried Interest & Dividends Entitlements bequeathed to 'more special' taxpayers.

      by in on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 12:47:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, please. They're *afraid* to express their (20+ / 0-)

    Christianity in the workplace?  

    Try being an atheist elected office-holder sometime and we will talk.

    Christians are not persecuted anywhere in the US except in their own minds. The fact that only now, in the 21st Century, are the more extreme believers being asked to rein in their persecution of others is not persecution in return.    

    "Heaven ain't close in a place like this." ~ The Killers

    by koosah on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:41:53 AM PDT

    •  They aren't afraid (8+ / 0-)

      I can't even count the number of christians who have tried to get me to accept jesus christ as my personal savior and assume I needed to be saved... smh

      "Disappointment is anger for wimps," -Dr. Gregory House

      by freakofsociety on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:52:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Unless ... (6+ / 0-)

      Unless you call being called out for their bigotry "persecution"!

      "Equal rights for gays." Yeah, it's just that simple.

      by planmeister on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:00:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've worked with plenty of people who (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      koosah, Old Sailor, schnecke21

      read their Bibles on break and Lunch time. They're free to exercise their faith as long as it doesn't infringe on their co-workers.
      But, I've seen football pools shutdown by only one person who claimed offense at the sin of gambling in the workplace. The following year, I suggested that person not be asked if she wanted to take part in a pool and word was spread not to mention it. She saw her coworker going from desk to desk with the envelope and complained anyway. So we all conformed to the behavior she considered appropriate.
      They also shutdown birthday celebrations that friends threw for each other because she complained it wasn't fair that no one had a celebration for her birthday. She couldn't see how her past behaviors would not inspire celebration on behalf of her being among us for another year.

      She once asked me if I ever read the Bible. "Yes," I told her, "Three times cover to cover. And most people who thump on it get most of it wrong."
      She didn't care to continue the conversation from there. Apparently, she was preparing a teaching moment and realized I would not be so easy a student.

      I know she could be persuaded gently, by me at least, to look the other way in the name of workplace harmony. But she also was advanced in her work group and had her eye on a managerial position, a few such were coming open due to retirements and promotions. Her tactics, I believed, weren't so much rooted in devout belief offended by sin as by demonstrating a no-nonsense attitude toward workplace policies to convey that she had the company's best interests at heart.
      Since I was laid off almost 3 years ago, she has not been promoted, but has taken a position in another department of the company.

      Devotion is a blanket that lulls one into comfort that your behavior, by nature of your belief, will always be less specious than that of your secular brethren. When God is on your side, all your sins are petty.

      "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by Gentle Giant on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:28:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  One nitpick... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    timj, LibrErica, Gentle Giant

    Most fundamentalist Muslims expect their women to wear a niqab (usually black, with a slit for the eyes, covers the entire body, usually worn with gloves to cover the hands) not the burkha (most often light blue, with a mesh over the eyes, usually worn without gloves, also covers the whole body) which is culturally specific to Afghans and Pakistani Pashtuns, and is not common at all in the Middle East or among non-Pashtun muslims in South Asia.

    I ride the wild horse .

    by BelgianBastard on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:42:34 AM PDT

  •  The NY newsroom Evangelical ought to just (16+ / 0-)

    make the choice to not be of that preference any more.  She shouldn't give in to the Evangelical Agenda that says she was re-born that way.  All she has to do is pray away the Evangelicalism.  And she better do it quickly because her choice to be Evangelical hurts America's families.

    Government works when you elect those who want it to. --askyron (2013)

    by Simul Iustus et Peccator on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:43:04 AM PDT

    •  Heh...........................nt (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      koosah, The Marti, gustynpip, stevemb

      Sometimes it's a little better to travel than to arrive - Pirsig

      by prettygirlxoxoxo on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:45:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of course, you're being facetious, as (3+ / 0-)

      changing sects or faiths is like changing major character traits, they are often so strongly held.

      I had a co-worker say once that she couldn't find a church she liked and wanted to raise her children in.
      I suggested she start from her driveway and go to the nearest church first, then travel to the next nearest and the next week by week until she found one she liked.

      "I couldn't do that! I'm Catholic!"
      "But you just said you don't like your church."
      "But my father would kill me if I went to another church!"
      "But you just said you hadn't been to church in 4 years. Wouldn't he rather you attend any church than to not attend Catholic church?!?"

      No. Apparently not. So she wanted to raise her kids in religion, in church, but not in any church except the one she wouldn't attend.

      ugh

      "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by Gentle Giant on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:36:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It is fascinating what they consider a choice (0+ / 0-)

      and what they don't consider a choice, isn't it?

  •  I liked this post so much (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, librarisingnsf, sfbob

    I thought it was by Hunter, even though it isn't as funny. It still made me snort and say "Right!" It's the first time I've scrolled back up and been wrong about that.

  •  Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality (8+ / 0-)

    And even if he had, ours would still be a civil society NOT to be governed by holy writ.

    They see us evolvin; they hatin.

    Fight them to the end, until the children of the poor eat better than the dogs of the rich.

    by raincrow on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:45:29 AM PDT

  •  You could not express my frustration more! (5+ / 0-)

    I am so fed up with conservative christians acting like they are being persecuted.

    "Disappointment is anger for wimps," -Dr. Gregory House

    by freakofsociety on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:48:08 AM PDT

  •  Nicely done, Kos!! n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, LibrErica, Eyesbright

    "Equal rights for gays." Yeah, it's just that simple.

    by planmeister on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:49:23 AM PDT

  •  Try being an Atheist in America. (5+ / 0-)

    With the exception of a local office, you can't get elected as an Atheist

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:50:38 AM PDT

  •  I have always found this part funny: (4+ / 0-)
    If you are too afraid to let people know about being a Christian, then you are a shitty Christian. The Jesus of the Bible didn't hunker down in a cave afraid to be found out.
    C;mon, do the god-botherers REALLY think ther eis any person anywhere in the entire US of A above the age of two that has NEVER heard the story of Jesus . . . ? There are actually people in the US of A who have somehow managed to avoid the entire massive tidal wave of omnipresent God-talk and never heard of Christianity?  Really . . . ? Really and truly . . . ?

    What the god-botherers want is to push THEIR own particular Jesus onto everyone else--ESPECIALLY if (as is the case with the fundamentalist movement) their real motive is political and social, not religious. They want to recruit everyone for their political agenda. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

    And it's an agenda that virtually nobody agrees with.

    I find it all a huge waste of time and effort.  (shrug)

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:51:10 AM PDT

    •  In my life I've found (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anon004, librarisingnsf, dawgflyer13

      that I've never had to overtly preach my Christianity -- Jesus said, "By this the world will know you are My disciples, by how you love one another," not "how loudly you can scream about how everyone else is going to Hell."

      There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

      by Cali Scribe on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:16:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've always thought that if anyone were a "real" (3+ / 0-)

        Christian or Muslim or Jew or Buddhist or whatever, there'd be no NEED to tell anyone--your actions would show it.

        ;)

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:32:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Not a Christian (0+ / 0-)

        raised in the church though...

        I always tell my devoutly fundamental friends that I always thought the whole point of the thing could be found in two verses:

        Micah 6:8 - He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

        Luke 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you.

        Not, as you say:  

        ...how loudly you can scream about how everyone else is going to Hell

        You can get animals addicted to a harmful substance, you can dissect their brains, but you throw their own feces back at them, and suddenly you're unprofessional. -Amy Farrah Fowler/The Big Bang Theory -7.50, -5.03

        by dawgflyer13 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 02:02:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Whine but get out of our way (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, librarisingnsf, LibrErica

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:52:37 AM PDT

  •  The opponents of marriage equality have no (9+ / 0-)

    idea how easy they have it.  Not only are they fawned over by too much of the media, they also have jobs...some paying millions of dollars a year, that allow them to spread their poison.  And they complain??

    WTF???

    So often during the battles for equality, I've thought of all the people I've known who never got a shot at anything like equality of any kind.  So many had to live and die in the closet that our society built into prisons for them.

    And now, the very people who did that and perpetuate it have the audacity to whine??

    Oh, HELL no!

    3. When gay marriage opponents get bullied into suicide, they can whine about how terrible they have it. Until then, shut the fuck up.
    Bolding, mine.

    "Live with no excuses and love with no regrets."

    by The Marti on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:52:44 AM PDT

  •  Liberals carry pocket Constitutions too. (5+ / 0-)

    I've had mine, which also contains the Declaration of Independence, for a quarter century. I think it is a much better memento than a flag pin, as it carries much more meaning to what makes our country great.

    Conservatives generally choose to live in a smaller world than Liberals do. That tends to make them more self-centered, experiencing difficulty sympathizing or empathizing with people who are very different from them. Much of their whining comes from the discomfort or ill ease because a vast majority of people on the planet are extremely different from them. Rather than being intrigued by the discovery of new things, they are made uncomfortable to fearful, wishing the world always to be understandable and familiar.

    Self-stunting is most definitely NOT a Liberal thing.

    "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

    by Gentle Giant on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 09:58:53 AM PDT

  •  Proselytizing doesn't belong at work (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, gustynpip
    It may fall to them to martyr their careers to stand up for what they believe to be true. But if they are going to do that, they should at least have a reasonable hope that their arguments will be seriously considered.
    Who needs to "seriously consider" someone's proselytizing at work??

    Of course, all of this boils down to the twisted belief that God doesn't really love them unless they're being persecuted.  

  •  White, Christian, Heterosexual, Male (7+ / 0-)

    It drives me (who is not a White, Christian, Heterosexual, Male) nuts when a White, Christian, Heterosexual, Male complains about how hard he has it.

  •  The freaks have lost the culture war. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Noamjunior, stevemb

    Modernity and progressivism not only won, but won handily.  It's really just a matter of time now before the last remaining dominoes fall.  Better to accept it and move on.

    "Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert G. Ingersoll

    by Apost8 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:01:14 AM PDT

  •  No matter what circle I run in, (6+ / 0-)

    the only thing that younger Gen X and Millenials are intolerant of is intolerance. Gay? Christian? Buddhist? Mixed race? That's cool.

    Bigot? Nope.

    I'm living in America, and in America you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business.

    by CFAmick on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:03:00 AM PDT

    •  And the internet plays no small part (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor, debocracy

      in opening those young minds. I wish I had grown up with the instantaneous availability of so much information and the ability to speak with someone in real time anywhere on the planet. How many years of humiliation, of learning how small I was, could I have avoided had I a real perception of the size of my world and its diversity!

      I always smirk when someone complains about "kids these days". Goddammit, I love 'em. They fill me with so much hope for the future and joy in the moment. There are way too many of my peers that waste remarkable amounts of energy pushing back against the March of Time.

      "Non-violence is a powerful and just weapon which cuts without wounding and ennobles the man who wields it. It is a sword that heals." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

      by Gentle Giant on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:49:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Cons are confusing being challenged & persecution (8+ / 0-)

    Conservatives aren't being persecuted for their beliefs - they are being challenged about their beliefs. Having to listen  to a logical argument against your beliefs is not the same as having to renounce your beliefs. If Christians are finding it uncomfortable being challenged about their biblical rationalization of Homophobia, tough shit- get a belief system that can stand up to scrutiny. Calling someone an ignorant bigot isn't the same as taking away their right to be an ignorant bigot, as long as their ignorant bigotry doesn't affect anyone else's civil rights- then it is them that is doing the persecuting

    •  I can even live with someone (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Noamjunior, Gentle Giant, Old Sailor

      who is personally opposed to marriage equality -- if they don't want to attend one, that's okay with me, more cake for the rest of us.

      It's when they want to enshrine that opposition in civil law or deny people equal treatment that bugs me. There are probably lots of churches that frown upon interracial marriages and won't perform them in their sanctuaries -- but thanks to SCOTUS in 1967, those folks can no longer discriminate against those couples nor is anyone putting laws on the books allowing such discrimination. We're not going to see an end to the whining until SCOTUS rules on the issue -- well, they'll still whine but we'll be able to ignore them a lot easier.

      There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

      by Cali Scribe on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:23:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  For many, probably most, anti-gay Christians, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor, Noamjunior

      their underlying motive comes from their view of God as a judgmental being just looking for an excuse to "smite" people.

      These people talk mostly about marriage and other equality as being something which will ruin our country, but if you push them to be more specific, what they'll often say is that God has favored America because it's the home of conservative Christians.  If they can't keep the nation discriminating against gays then God will be so pissed that at a minimum the special protection will be withdrawn, and maybe even God will actively destroy our nation out of anger.

      Bottom line, these people are scared that God will kill them if two gay people get married.

      They're oblivious to the fact that much of Jesus' ministry was about God as being loving rather than wrathful.  

      But if you ever watch you'll find they go to churches which preach far more often from the Old Testament's vengeful passages and the Revelation, and rarely the parts where Jesus speaks about a loving God.

      They also mostly skip the parts where Jesus talks about God being closer to the poor more than the rich, which explains how they can support Ayn Rand-style politics without noticing the contradictions to what Jesus taught.

  •  disagree with # 3 (0+ / 0-)

    they have as much right to whine as you have to tell them to shut up

  •  I don't see how they (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eyesbright, Gentle Giant, koosah

    can read I Samuel and continue to argue that David and Jonathan were "just good friends."

    I don't see how they can read about Solomon's 700 wives (not to mention all of his concubines) and then go on and on about ONE man One Woman marriage.

    I don't see how they can read Song of Songs and argue that marriage is not (at least partially) about love and romantic/sexual attraction.

    What Bible are they reading?

  •  The fact is... (3+ / 0-)

    the religious right cannot accept that gay people could possibly be equal to them in any way. The whole idea is horrifying. After all they are the True Believers and we're just a bunch of dirty queers. How can we be equal? It makes no sense and they just can't accept it.

  •  Shitty Christians (0+ / 0-)

    Up on the links the computer mine appears passively existing  fucked.

    Yet I and my not shitty Christian fellows remain and continue to push for improvements.

    tl;dr

    o caminho d'ouro, uma pinga de mel: Parati

    by tarkangi on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:25:41 AM PDT

  •  The argument that these people are making (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gentle Giant, Old Sailor

    is that their religious freedom entitles them not just to practice their faith in my own life, but to extend that religious practice into someone else's life and cause them harm.  So, here's a question for all these "Christians" who say about their religious freedom being limited.  There are Muslims who believe their religion teaches that the West is full of decadent, evil infidels who must be destroyed.  Should we allow them their "freedom of religious expression" to blow us up?  It's a difference of degree, but it's the exact same argument.

  •  Aren't Christians supposed to WELCOME persecution? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor, stevemb

    I'm no expert on theology, but I seem to recall the conventional Catholic teaching is that a martyr's death is a one-way ticket to the Pearly Gates express.  Why sit on your ass waiting for the Rapture when there are hungry lions to feed!

  •  Boo Hoo. Extra "Boo" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor

    Osama bin Laden simply affirmed what his faith (the extreme Wahabi sect of Islam) teaches about modernity. By Dreher's "argument", he gets a free pass, too.

    On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

    by stevemb on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:38:57 AM PDT

  •  The photo at the top of the diary is so beautiful. (3+ / 0-)

    Their faces say more than any words could about what is at stake in the fight for equality.   May they share in all the goodness this life has to offer.  

    Comfort the afflicted. Afflict the comfortable.

    by FindingMyVoice on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 10:43:33 AM PDT

  •  #2 makes me wonder if there's not a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    librarisingnsf

    legal battle in there somewhere for women's rights.  After watching Rachel last night (and last week) regarding the clinics in TX, it would seem to me since abortion is legal in this country that there would be a legal fight to uphold it.

    Just thinking through my fingers.

    The GOP will destroy anything they can't own.

    by AnnieR on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:02:34 AM PDT

  •  Lets use another example with has nothing to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor

    do with sex.

    When I was a kid, my state had "blue laws" which forbid most stores from being open on Sunday because SOME (far from all, maybe not even most) churches believed that Sunday had to be a "day of rest" per the Bible.  

    IOW, they wouldn't allow anyone else to practice a different view by enshrining THEIR views into law.

    When states began to repeal their blue laws, those conservative Christians howled that their religious freedoms were being violated.  

    Of course, everyone else simply replied that these Christians remained free to exercise their religious views by not shopping on Sunday.  

    Sound familiar?

  •  Usually don't bother to rec a kos post, (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor, librarisingnsf

    But, wow!

    "It doesn't matter what I do....People need to hear what I have to say. There's no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn't matter what I live."--Newty

    by Vico on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:15:15 AM PDT

  •  You can be against gay relationships (0+ / 0-)

    Without advocating against fair and equal treatment as a human being and under the law.

    http://callatimeout.blogspot.com/

    by DAISHI on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:21:59 AM PDT

  •  Number 4. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor, unclebucky

    When confronted with the fact that their bigotry may cost them real money - as in the case of Kansas and Arizona 'My Religion Uber Alles' laws - they fold up like a cheap tent.  One would be excused in thinking that maybe Jesus isn't the object of their worship.

    “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck (Disputed)

    by RichM on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:25:24 AM PDT

    •  Oh and... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor

      How can you be a 'closeted' evangelical Christian?  Talk about an oxymoran.  

      “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck (Disputed)

      by RichM on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 11:31:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My Thoughts Go Out (0+ / 0-)

    to those Cowboys, Preachers & Sunday School Teachers.
    To Moms with babes who cry in the night.
    To the dads with boys that will run from a fight.
    Shall we never forget, that we came from the same,
    while trying to push who's fault is to blame.

    Yes we all live, under the same sun.
    Cant we stop trying to decide who needs to be shunned.

    For all of those who are, but cannot speak.
    Let not a soul tell you, that you are weak.

    Sometimes a person is in a position that does not make it easy for you to be yourself.  Its not as easy as deciding that you need to take one road or the other.

    My son came out when he was still in high school.
    I could not imagine him living his life, other than the way he lives it now.

    So if your still going to church, freely speaking your hate, the least you can do is be quiet.
    you're not helping.

    And you know it.

  •  Christian Fundamentalist = Muslim Fundamentalist (2+ / 0-)

    Hate is their faith.  Violence and bigotry is their game.

  •  Where I disagree w/Kos (4+ / 0-)

    Kos: "No one gives the Flat Earth Society the time of day."

    The House GOP gives them committee chairmanships.

    F*x News gives them control of the debate on the biggest issue we face asa aspecies.

    There's no such thing as a free market!

    by Albanius on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:01:56 PM PDT

  •  I want to see GOPers go extinct. n/t (0+ / 0-)

    Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

    by unclebucky on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:14:06 PM PDT

  •  Christians Tell Me I'm Going to Hell (3+ / 0-)

    Since I am an atheist, Christians believe that I am going to hell when I die.  That is, they think I will suffer the worst imaginable existence for all of eternity.  And, they have no problem telling me that to my face.  Now, they whine about someone calling them out for their bigotry?

    Christians can go f' themselves.  Really.

    ITLDUSO Honk "Hello" when I drive by!

    by caroman on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:39:32 PM PDT

    •  I once saw a bumpersticker (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DEMonrat ankle biter

      that said something to the effect of:

      Christians tell me that I'm going to Hell and they're going to Heaven; but if they aren't there, how can it be Hell? So, I guess we are all going to the same place after all.

      You can get animals addicted to a harmful substance, you can dissect their brains, but you throw their own feces back at them, and suddenly you're unprofessional. -Amy Farrah Fowler/The Big Bang Theory -7.50, -5.03

      by dawgflyer13 on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 02:08:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And these are the folks (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Old Sailor

      who claim, "You are going to a place where you will burn and rot for all eternity  .  .  .  .  because God loves you soooo much.   And you know what?  I'm just tickled pink about that  .  .  .  .  because I hate you."

      Go figure.

      The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men - - Plato . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We must be the change we wish to see in the world - - Mohandas Gandhi

      by twocrows1023 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 09:28:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  59% of people polled support gay marriage... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor, twocrows1023

    ....at a Republican conference, basically, Oregon's CPAC.

    Sorry, but you're being put in the dustbin of history, bigots.

    You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

    by varro on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:43:45 PM PDT

  •  The Religion itself is at fault.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor

    since, unlike many other faiths, requires Christians to spread the "good word." Being an ambassador of an old empire, Christians are rightfully, and logically,conflicted, because they are still reacting against Pagan and Primitive Governments, tyrannies, dictatorships and Warlords from the past two millenia. They fail to realize, logicallly,  that American Republic protects them Constitutionally, and all other faiths, by negating the NEED to spread the faith. They interpret this as an usurpation of their divine mission. It is in fact, the reason why they are NOT persecuted in any official or societal way.

    The chief beneficiary of the legal policy they scorn, clearly, is themselves. I would tell the Christians with a persecution complex, to be careful what you wish for. If you were to get it, I think you would find life to be somewhat more unpleasant than it is today. The entire emotional and spiritual temperature of the country would change to a hotter and drier one  in terms of persuasion, and that would work against their own stated aims.

    Of course, this means that their more intelligent leaders understand this, and the gnashing, rending and wailing are for Internal Political Purposes.. to grow the flock and keep the flock energized, as does any good political party. But then we could rightfully say, are you a religion or are you a political party? I think we know that answer as well. Time to start calling it out explicitly. As politics, Christianity is not in favor of a Republican Representative Democracy, or a tolerant Constitution.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 12:51:48 PM PDT

  •  I've accepted some of these people (0+ / 0-)

    Especially among people I know, and a few of them are relatives, we never talk about religion with because we know they are religious and it's kept quiet. But basically It's my belief these people are from a different age and time and they grew up differently and while yes it is 2014 and the bigotry is unacceptable I don't think you are going to change their minds unless they themselves see the error of their own ways. I personally have learned to laugh at it so long as they aren't physically trying murder or kill people.

  •  Douthat in the NYT (0+ / 0-)

    had another of his snivelly screeds recently; it's so much like his previous ones that I wanted to post this on their comments, which is a three-year old takedown but just as hilarious as it always was:

    "Guns don't kill people. People in states without gun-purchase background checks & waiting periods kill people." --John Fugelsang

    by Artryst on Tue Mar 11, 2014 at 05:26:09 PM PDT

  •  From the original source: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor
    He
    [an unnamed source being shielded by the author because he might have to answer for his words]
    also said that religious conservatives really don’t understand the McCarthyism that’s about to come at them. Simply affirming what their faith teaches about sexuality in context of the gay rights debate really is, and will increasingly be, seen not as evidence of one’s poor thinking, but rather as evidence of one’s personal evil.
    Claiming that McCarthyism is coming at those who want to keep others from having the same rights they enjoy?  Seriously?  

    Three points:
    1]  Those who choose to exclude "the other" are not the victims here.

    2]  "It's coming!  Be afraid!  Be very afraid!" is the equivalent of the 7-year-old's trick, "Look over there!  Ha!  Made ya look!"

    3] And these same "Christians" seem so much more interested in Leviticus than in the New Testament when they "affirm" their faith.  
    My favorite riposte when they begin waxing eloquent on gays is to ask them what Jesus had to say about them.
    The answer is, "Not one word."  
    Then I ask them to please follow his example.

    Jesus did, however, have a fair amount to say about accepting people who are not just like ourselves.

    The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men - - Plato . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We must be the change we wish to see in the world - - Mohandas Gandhi

    by twocrows1023 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 09:57:44 AM PDT

  •  Conservative Bigots (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Toprow

    Conservative bigots that's just redundant.  We now know that if your a conservative you are a bigot.  Yes bigots come in all colors but from what I've seen in my 63 years of life anyone who is a conservative is a bigot.  Show me one that's not, just one no matter the color whether it's Bobby Jindal, Allen West or Mitch McConnell.  They're all the same.  

    They just love to do thing like character assination those conservatives but when the tables are turned, like losing a presidential election then they become vile, nasty and show their true souls.  Every single one of them is evil from the Koch brothers and to Laura Ingram.  

  •  Christians are the worst (0+ / 0-)

    Believers in other religions don't constantly feel the need to proclaim their beliefs constantly. Christians always seem to feel that they have to mention their religion in every statement. Religion should be kept private, not waved in everyone's face.

  •  These fringe-dwelling righties are scared to death (0+ / 0-)

    of new and different ideas and concepts. Why? Ignorance, pure, self-imposed ignorance. To impose this on themselves gives them a place to hide from reality and truth. It's the ultimate path of least resistance, that path most oft traveled by most humans.

  •  Conservative Whiners (0+ / 0-)

    I remember this kind of "thinking" from when I grew up in the South and was dating a Southern Belle from Orangeburg SC.  Peggy was convinced that "they" (she used a different word) were taking over, that whites would now be downtrodden.  It is simply another example of the experience of a formerly dominant group when they have to give up some of their privileges.  Maybe parallel to Cornwallis' decision to have his band play "The World Turned Upside Down" at Yorktown.  (I didn't marry Peggy)

  •  Bigotry (0+ / 0-)

    All these closet Christians should just accept the theory behind the recent Arizona Religious Freedom Legislation.  Atheists and supporters of gay rights aren't discriminating against them.  They are merely exercising their deeply held beliefs that these people are unworthy of their attention and can therefore be shunned.  The believers had no trouble making this argument on Fox; why object when someone else adopts it?

  •  Thank you for this, markos. nt (0+ / 0-)

    There is a critical difference between feeling discriminated against because you're disagreed with and being discriminated against because of who you are.

    by EdSF on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 08:23:29 PM PDT

  •  So either buck up, or modernize. (0+ / 0-)

    Howzabout, "So either buck up, and modernize."

  •  No, there IS no room for dissent (0+ / 0-)

    That is, unless you think there is room for dissent on the most fundamental aspects of the American Constitution.

    "All men are created equal." There is no "except..." to that statement. It does not say "It can be debated that all men are created equal".

    The gay haters need to get it though their heads — this isn't a religious issue; it's a Basic Human Rights issue. It's like saying that you should have a right to physically bludgeon sinners with a bible because your "religion" says you should. People saying no to that isn't an attack on your religion; it's just enforcing the Laws of the Land. There is no religious exemption for assault. Likewise, there is no religious exemption for equality, period!

  •  Hah (0+ / 0-)

    Good article.

    Backed hard.

  •  I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH PART OF THIS POST... (0+ / 0-)

    "Religions that don't adapt to the realities of the modern world will face increasing hostility, and rightly so." As a Roman Catholic, I beg to differ with that statement. The Bible is called "The Word" for good reason. Even though we may disagree with or not understand certain portions of the Bible, "The Word" stands. Of course, there are countless interpretations that can be construed as having many different meanings to different people or religious sects. However, Mankind can't bend or rewrite scripture to fit their own views, even though those beliefs do not coincide with "the realities of the modern world." Instead, we must change OURSELVES to comply with the tenets set forth in the Bible. "The Word" cannot be shaped to satisfy our own opinions.

    However, the Bible, especially the New Testament, preaches tolerance for others. Forcing one's beliefs on others who are NOT Christians is wrong. In fact, legislating religion and morality is unconstitutional. In my own situation as a Catholic, even though I personally may disagree with abortion, homosexuality, atheism, what constitutes Evil, etc., it is NOT my place or my right to force those views upon others, nor do I condemn those who do believe in such things. I am completely open and tolerant toward people who don't agree with me. Still, "The Word" cannot be rewritten as we would like it to be. It is what it is.

  •  So many people (0+ / 0-)

    simply refuse to admit that religious supremacism is intrinsically and necessarily bigoted, even when they make pious displays of "tolerance".

    Don't meow, or I'll take your picture.

    by Old Sailor on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 10:52:53 AM PDT

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