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If companies only pay for part of the insurance, doesn't that mean that employees are playing for the other part? That employees pay anywhere from 200 to 1000 dollars a month based on age and number of beneficiaries, etc.,

Why is it then, that Hobby Lobby can pretend that they OWN the insurance outright? As if the employee is not paying any of it, because doesn't that make the beneficiary part "owner" of that insurance as well?

It seems to me, that Hobby Lobby is pretending that they are buying health insurance in a vacuum.

The Federal Government then pays subsidies to assist beneficiaries that qualify for financial assistance, so that also means that the government is part owner which is paid for by OUR tax dollars--some of which come from WOMEN!

Third, your cost will depend on how much money you make. You’ll be entitled to government subsidies if you earn up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level. For an individual, that’s $45,960 a year. For a family of four, it is $94,200.

Your assets, such as your house or car, don’t matter here. It’s all about income.
Christian Science Monitor

I know this last part really sticks in the craw of Vulture Capitalists, just as much as coverage of Birth Control.

Anyhow-- back to the point. HL and other business are one of 3 entities paying for the Affordable Care Act. So how is it, that we are having this discussion about women's comprehensive health care coverage in a manner that pretends the ENTIRE burden falls upon the companies like HL when clearly that is not how this works.

The Government pays for a portion which is supported by Tax Dollars. Tax dollars that unequally come from the blue collar sector.

Huffpo-10 most profitable US Corporations Paid Avg Tax Rate of Just 9%
A Third of America's Most Successful Companies Pay Less Than 10% Income Tax Rate--Think Progress

The employee pays for a portion, the exception being those who qualify as too poor, or those who qualify under a hardship exemption.

The company pays for the last portion.

So 2/3rds of the Affordable Care Act is paid for by the people either individually AND through their taxes.

How is it, that any corporation should be allowed to pretend they pay exclusively (in terms of framing the debate) and that this gives them the entitlement to put religious exemptions on certain coverage, that denies a portion of the tax payers their fair and comprehensive medical coverage, when those (female) citizens pay taxes AND pay out of pocket to support the Affordable Care Act?

7:25 AM PT: Please don't miss these other HL diaries that make some really excellent points as well:

http://www.dailykos.com/...
and
http://www.dailykos.com/...

7:56 AM PT: I forgot to add--this is the diary that got me to thinking in this general direction: http://www.dailykos.com/...

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (32+ / 0-)

    "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

    by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 05:31:58 AM PDT

  •  Employees are Paying for ALL OF IT. (32+ / 0-)

    The insurance is COMPENSATION, just like take-home wages, sick days and vacation days. Once compensation is assigned to you, the company can't tell you what you can and can't spend it on.

    The company can't tell you where you may or may not vacation, it can't forbid your kids from eating bacon with your "company wages" if the owner is Jewish, it can't force you to buy a sailboat instead of a jet ski if the owners are environmentalists.

    And they can't tell you you can have a yeast infection covered but not birth control.

    Because it's YOUR COMPENSATION.

    Well that's my logic, and it must be wrong, because I'm not a lawyer.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 05:36:39 AM PDT

    •  How do we push this point home? (9+ / 0-)

      Because the Vulture Capitalists have framed Health Insurance as an "Entitlement" with an emphasis on the worst connotation of the word--something gained that is not earned.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:09:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "Entitlement" (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother, kharma

        I am entitled to an hour's pay for an hour worked or a week's salary for a week worked.  I am entitled to respect when I go to work.  I am entitled to respect when I go to vote.  I am entitled to the regular, recognized benefits afforded all employees without any attempt to put limitations on those benefits due to race, religion, sex, gender, national origin, political belief or economic status.

        In a better world, that pay would afford me a life in which I could afford to provide my family a home, and my children an education.  My state and my nation should be as interested as I am in making sure that my children and grandchildren are educated, well-nourished, and provided a good public school education.  

        The Republican Party thinks that "Entitlements" are dangerous to a free society.  I think that the "Entitlements" that the Republican Party fears are the benefits of living in a modern civilized society.

        Voters should select people to represent them in their government. People in government should not select people who may vote!

        by NM Ray on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 08:56:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree with you 100 percent. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kharma

          Entitlements as you use the word are about compensation as per a contractual agreement.

          But the GOP has reframed the debate by going for another definition of Entitlement, which is to say, That which is given but not earned.

          They believe that a job is a gift, but not an equal exchange of energies. Therefore, whatever derisive shit a Jawb Creyator doles out--we should just hold our hats out and say, "Thank you, may I have another?"

          Wages are not wages, they are favors.

          Employees are not working they are slacking.

          I love it that they use their faith to justify this bullshit, because I found the quotes about a worker and their wages and posted them further down in the comment section.

          Its very clear that they are supposed to pay their workers fair wages and not "oppress the hirelings."

          And I am sure if we were to bring that up, their response would be:

          Is that Macro or Micro-evolution?

          Bengazi!

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:35:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I think you're onto something (7+ / 0-)

      Some of my benefits are paid in full by the university where I work. Others I pay for in whole or in part via payroll deduction  (at a lower rate than I could get in the individual market). The HR website goes to great pains to outline which deductions from my paycheck AND which payments by the university on my behalf are taxable or not by the feds and/or state. So at least some of these benefits are legally classified as income ... aka compensation.

      Just because you're not a drummer doesn't mean that you don't have to keep time. -- T. Monk

      by susanala on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:37:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the rub here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenMother, MPociask
      Once compensation is assigned to you, the company can't tell you what you can and can't spend it on.
      is that hobby lobby does not wish to assign a compensation that causes them to contribute to any abortions.  So they want to assign insurance plans as compensation that do not have that feature.

      If they assigned as compensation a health plan that did allow those drugs, then at that point they would have no ability to tell the employees how to utilize the benefit.

      •  Very interesting SamBRobters, could you be so (0+ / 0-)

        kind as to provide links that show this?

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:47:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i've got no links (0+ / 0-)

          that's just my sense as to what's happening. Does something there sound incorrect?

          •  Not completely, but partially (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother

            This isn't just about "abortion inducing contraceptives", though that's HL's excuse.

            Look at the fact that Hobby Lobby's retirement plans invest in manufacturers of the same contraceptives they're suing to get out of "paying for". You might want to re-check your sense, there.

             

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:07:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  according to this, (0+ / 0-)

              The hobby Lobby health plan does cover 14 kinds of free contraception

              http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

              According to the government, there may be some employees who need contraception, who can’t use one of the 14 kinds of free contraception provided under Hobby Lobby’s plan, and who might be deterred from buying Plan B, ella, or IUDs with their own money.
              I would guess that they find the retirement plan spending to be more remote/indirect such that it does not violate their conscience.
              •  And yet it's still some dude beating a bible tryin (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RJDixon74135, lunachickie

                to insert himself inbetween a woman and her doctor.

                Women need multiple options because women are not all the same. Some women do best on IUDs and some do better on pills. And some of us can use neither and have to go a different routed entirely.

                But why drag one man's incredible ignorance about female physiology and variety into the discussion--that feels too much like logic and reason, and we can't have those in New Gilead.

                "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

                by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:44:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's still craven hypocrisy, regardless (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GreenMother

                You don't get to have a Selective Conscience when it comes to Your Religion. Not when you're trying to weasel out of The Law by hiding behind it. Even if your guess was right, that doesn't change one bit.

                 So really, why not just stop trying? I think if I were you, I'd worry less about defending the indefensible and more about "unintended consequences" that will result here.

                Hobby Lobby has nothing, and they're trying to get a corrupt court to say otherwise. These people need to stop shoving their fucking religion down everyone else's throats. The end.

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 09:41:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Keep floating those trial balloons, though! n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GreenMother
                they find the retirement plan spending to be more remote/indirect such that it does not violate their conscience
                Bwahahahahaha! Good luck with that Mother Jones callout. That thing is going viral as I type this.

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 09:44:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I don't need the ACA, so really I was thinking (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lunachickie

            out loud about this matter. I already have insurance.  So whether something sounds right or is right, those can be two different things.

            if you run across something, post it.

            "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

            by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:09:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  even if you have insurance, you might find (0+ / 0-)

              you do need the ACA.  If you are ever in danger of reaching lifetime caps.  If you ever find yourself with what would be considered a pre-existing condition, and so on.

              •  I thought pre-existing conditions were done (0+ / 0-)

                away with.

                "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

                by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:58:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Does this mean that if I spend part of my (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother

        income on contraceptive, they are allowed to reduce my pay?

        I reject your reality and substitute my own - Adam Savage

        by woolibaar on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 08:26:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Give it some time and some peanut counter just (0+ / 0-)

          may try it.

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:27:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm a lawyer and your're right. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenMother

      Steve Gilliard Lives.

      by Bethesda 1971 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:38:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That is just part of the paternalistic (13+ / 0-)

    delusion of the Christian Nationalists who plaster their corporate home pages yellow page ads, or work vans with fish symbols and quotes from the Bible.

    Their piety is a cudgel, a hammer, a lever, an excuse when it serves their interests and then the rest of the time it's "looky over there..."

    Hypocrites, in other words.

    This exposes another reason health care should be universal and not a Wall Street commodity.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 05:46:29 AM PDT

    •  I agree with both David54 and Gooserock (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      David54, Scioto, salmo, Skyye, a2nite

      However, you both see my point right?

      Why are we allowing the debate to be framed like it is, as if these companies (aka Jawb Creaytors) are paying for everything out of pocket and that somehow this makes these corporations who are not people, entitled to call the shots and single women out?

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 05:56:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely. We should not settle for this kind of (8+ / 0-)

        framing, and we should not accept the framing of most of the big issues.
        This is where the official Dems are incredibly weak, btw. They let the mainstream media adopt the narrative supplied by the gop constantly without challenging it.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:02:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They do that a lot--and it is just as mystifying (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          David54, Lady Libertine, salmo

          to me.

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:05:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let's suppose the Dems do poorly this year. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother, VPofKarma, MPociask, NM Ray

            The seeds of that loss will have been sown as far back as 2009 (or even earlier) when the Dems sat idly by while the media created a whole fictitious parallel universe of punditry based on gop talking points.

            They've got to stop.

            Lately Harry Reid has been a happy surprise, but Durbin and the rest of the Dems need to back him up and they also need to start demanding more time on the Sunday shows, and when they get there they need to start telling Todd Gregory to stfu.

            You can't make this stuff up.

            by David54 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:11:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I understand. I get all excited when it looks like (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Skyye, David54

              some kind of spine has been infused only to have my hopes dashed on the reef of idiocy when the Dems allow the GOP to frame the debate. It feeds my suspicion that there are more Dinos than we know.

              "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

              by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:16:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The Austerity Democrats... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GreenMother

              Failed the party, and more importantly, failed the country.  They bought into what the corporate oligarchs were selling, and sold out the voters.  Then they wave things like DADT or Supreme Court nominations in the air frantically, and say how evil the Republicans are, you've just GOT to vote for us, or else you're an evil Naderite.

              And then they complain about how those lazy Democrats just won't turn out when it comes to midterms.  Never mind giving them something to vote for.

          •  It's called Good Cop/Bad Cop (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother, David54

            not only that, "media" goes out of its way to not broadcast any Dem pushback that might be out there.

            No mystery there at all.

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:09:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I feel like someone here on the KOS (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    salmo, Skyye

    will be able to see what I have written and say it better, which is why I framed this diary as a series of questions.

    "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

    by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 05:58:46 AM PDT

    •  A Nonsensical Issue (5+ / 0-)

      I think you have made clear a completely valid issue.  Your writing on this is perfectly fine.  And I thank you for writing this.

      The problem here is that this is a non-sense issue.  It makes no sense the a corporation can claim a religious belief.  It makes no sense that that corporation claiming a strongly held religious belief ignores the many many religious rules and laws described in the Bible to focus solely on the one rule that they interpret to apply to contraceptive use, (it makes no sense that the Bible has anything to say about the use of contraceptives, written as it was some 1900 years before the discovery and use of IUDs), and it makes no sense that a corporation seeks allowance from the SCOTUS to blatantly discriminate on the basis of gender alone.

      The entire issue is so confused and non-sensical that it is impossible to clearly and logically about it.  It is impossible to be logical and orderly about something so lacking in logic.

      That this issue can receive the attention of the Supreme Court is a supreme shame on our country.

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:39:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hugh Jim Bissell--be careful or you might diffuse (0+ / 0-)

        my Feminine defenses with such excellent ally behavior ;)

        Seriously, this is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all month with regards to this matter. I agree it is nonsensical for all the reasons you state. And it has kept me perpetually pissed off for several months now.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:44:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You have every reason to be angry (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GreenMother, lunachickie

          The idea that this corporation is seeking the blessing of the SCOTUS to discriminate on the basis of gender for the trumped up "religious" causes they claim is maddening and frustrating to me - and I don't even use an IUD.

          You have every reason to be angry.

          Our system of laws is to justice as poop is to good taste.  

          But your writing is fine, wonderful even; and your thinking on the point of who actually pays for workers' health care is spot on.  Sadly, too many of our top jurists do not share your good sense.  

          "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

          by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:06:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Following up on comments above (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenMother

      I think you did just fine.  Going a little further, one of the things that stands out for me goes back to the lessons I learned in my first job, "A workman is worthy of his hire."  What that means is that wages are not a gift or a favor.  Paying a worker is an unconditional moral obligation, as well as a legal requirement.  I'll bet there is even a Biblical passage to that effect.  You would think that politicians purporting to be part of the party that stands for working Americans would instinctively start a discussion about compensation there.  Maybe they don't because, far too often, modern discussions of the economic relationship between employers and employees seem to skip over that essential truth (and maybe they don't because they have internalized a class distinction against American labor history).  If we want to change that, the change will start with us.  We, who are on the worker's side, need to relearn the reality that my first shop steward knew in his bones - the boss doesn't give us anything.  

      I think that experience helped me be a better boss too.

      •  Here ya go--Bible Verses (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        salmo

        Leviticus 19:13 - Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob [him]: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

        Jeremiah 22:13 - Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; [that] useth his neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work;

        James 5:4 - Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

        Luke 10:7 - And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

        1 Timothy 5:18 - For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

        This one is interesting--those that oppress the hirelings

        Malachi 3:5 - And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:30:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I could be wrong, but I think if an employee (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    papercut

    has insurance through their job then the government is not involved and there are no subsidies.  The company I work for pays a portion of the insurance and I pay a portion.  

    “To the world you may be just one person, but to one person you may be the world.”-Brandi Snyder (in memory of my Nick)

    by YellowDogInGA on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:10:28 AM PDT

    •  How could the federal government not be involved (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie

      if it's providing subsidies to people who make 400 percent of the National Poverty level and below or when it provides hardship or poverty exemptions?

      And how could the government not be involved if it has to provide exchanges in states where the GOP lead governments will not support the ACA?

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:13:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And also, are you telling me, that as a tax payer (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lunachickie

      required to purchase insurance or pay a penalty, that the money you contribute doesn't make you a financial stake holder in this? Doesn't your money count as much as your civil rights as per your citizenship?

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:14:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a form of tax free compensation: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MPociask, Cedwyn

      There's no FICA, the employees aren't taxed and yet the employer deducts the cost to him.

      So it's a huge subsidy to wages, the benefit of which accrues in part to employers who provide health insurance.

      The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

      by Inland on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:20:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The employees aren't taxed if they buy the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        insurance. But if they don't then they pay a penalty that is equal to the cost of a bronze level coverage.

        This entire endeavor is meant to bring the cost of healthcare down for everyone, instead of making healthcare something that only singles making 60,000 or more can afford, and the rest of us be damned.

        Even people who had health insurance were one catastrophic illness or accident away from bankruptcy, even after paying decades of premiums.

        The rest were forced to forego regular preventive care or maintenance care, and utilize ERs as PCPs. This also drove up the cost because the hospitals were often stuck with all or most of the bill from such visits. People saw doctors were sicker which meant more hospital stays, were longer and more drugs/interventions were required tomake up for the lack of preventive care in the long term.

        This happened to the uninsured driving up costs for the insured, mostly hammering blue collar insurance holders.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:28:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  inland is not discussing the penalty (0+ / 0-)

          for not buying insurance.

          maybe re-read the comment in context?

          Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

          by Cedwyn on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:04:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe you will just have to spell it out for me (0+ / 0-)

            I still don't understand why this warrants a Supreme Court Hearing. Perhaps I am so stuck on that, that other aspects of this confuse me.

            "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

            by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:29:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It happened to everyone (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GreenMother

          eventually, when insurers started finding the most ridiculous reasons to deny coverage, even when you actually had insurance.

          The bottom line here is that HL is trying to have it both ways--they want to only have to pay "part" of the benefit and have the employee pick up the rest of the tab, and they also want to deny certain coverages to certain persons in the group of employees they help pay to cover.

          That, to me, creates a sub-class of citizen wage earners. There's nothing the least bit logical, sensible, fair or lawful about that. HL wants SCOTUS blessing on the latter, and it's just craven bullshit from top to bottom.

           

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:19:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what really bothers me about this lunachickie (0+ / 0-)

            is that some of the pre-existing conditions were identified early on as potential flags for serious conditions and diseases like reproductive cancers.

            Did the insurance company have the doctor sit down and talk to patient about long term screening?

            NO

            They just kick her off insurance knowing that her risks were higher, but left her in the dark. I think if that happened to me, I would have cause to sue the doctor and the insurance for malicious negligence and perhaps malpractice.

            "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

            by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:40:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  How can that be possible if this program is (0+ / 0-)

        created, and coordinated by the government?

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:24:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Where are companies saying that (0+ / 0-)

    they pay for all of the cost of insurance? Their beef is based on them paying for some of it.

    •  Why is there a beef? They did this to themselves (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite

      by firing full time workers and then hiring part time workers who didn't qualify for compensatory insurance packages and other benefits normally enjoyed by full time employees.

      This was a dodge and nothing else and now the chickens have come home to roost.

      Our country cannot go on with so many uninsured people dying of preventable causes, due to a lack of long term regular (read preventive) care. And that includes surprise pregnancies, the flu, broken bones, and other regular occurrences that shouldn't have fatal or debilitating outcomes.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:19:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you are part time, eliminates your (0+ / 0-)

        ability tofile for unemployment  or it significantly shrinks your check should you still have benefits options

        That means that between part time "temp" jobs, many people are forced to apply to the state for assistance, instead of the company having to pay in part for unemployment.

        Then our politicians and pundits sit around and decry the "Welfare Kings and Queens" when we set them up for failure.

        We haven't even discussed the wealth extraction of people on welfare being bilked by big banks.

        That's on top of everything else.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:45:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Also the debate sounds that way. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      a2nite, Cedwyn

      Because the companies are required to pay a portion, their fair share (unlike federal taxes in many cases) they act as if they own the program.

      The fact that religion was drug into this, and actually taken seriously as it stands is pretty fucking ridiculous especially since it discriminates against women exclusively.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:21:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  correct (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MPociask

      i think that as the employer pays some of the burden, they have a say in how their dollars are spent.

      And as they select the plans that will be offered to the employees they have a sort of prior veto, based on the plans/coverages that they don't select.

      They could choose a plan with no drug benefit for example (well, maybe not anymore, but they could once).

      They could choose a plan that has a coverage for Lasik, or face lifts, or baldness treatments, or they could choose to not cover those expenses.

      •  But can they choose to provide comprehensive (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lunachickie

        health care packages to males and not females?

        Even the science they invoke about what abortion is, is nonsensical pseudo science.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:48:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i would guess that if they offered (0+ / 0-)

          a particular benefit to one gender that they must offer it to both. If they offer the men a prescription plan, they must also offer it to the women.

          But it isn't the case that they are offering birth control to men and not to women. So i don't think a discrimination claim would work. Not unless condoms are covered.

          •  Not exactly. Family Planning is a lot more (0+ / 0-)

            than just condoms. And while I appreciate it when people practice safer sex, women often have to take more precautions to avoid unplanned pregnancies than just condoms which do fail.

            This is why women often use more than one kind of birth control, and also why married women sometimes need the Morning after pill.

            Also there is the matter of emergency contraception. Certainly rape shouldn't be the only reason to have access to morning after pills, it certainly is a good one. Stuffy old biddies who think they know everything should have no right in determining a woman's access to these pills, what they propose is simply discrimination disguised as an extension of the "conscience clause" which is yet another act of gender discrimination against women based on gender and perceived sexual activity (read slut shaming).

            Pregnancy is not a sentence or a punishment for sex.
            Babies should not be a punishment.

            But without a woman's ability to practice family planning at will, unplanned pregnancies can quickly become a risky endeavor coupled with the notion of punishment for women's sexual activity.

            The company is trying to make a statement that All Sex is for Procreation. And that women who have sex should get pregnant.

            Doesn't that seem a bit over-reaching to you? Will Mr Greene risk his life to have a baby? Will he ever have to deal with pelvic organ prolapse, pre-eclampsia, birth defects, stroke, mastitis, Perineal tears, C-sections, placental abruptions, VBAC, or Gestational Diabetes, Gestational thyroiditis, or any of the other conditions (some life threatening and certainly a hard impact on health) due to pregnancy and childbirth?

            And yet, blue pills, and penis pumps.

            Hmmmmmmmmm

            "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

            by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:17:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i don't think that that is correct (0+ / 0-)
              The company is trying to make a statement that All Sex is for Procreation. And that women who have sex should get pregnant.
              i believe that i heard that they only objected to a few forms of birth control, not all.

              https://news.yahoo.com/...

              The Greens, the evangelical Oklahomans who own Hobby Lobby, argue that the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) protects them from having to provide the so-called morning after pill and intrauterine devices to their 13,000 employees, as required by the Affordable Care Act.
              •  If you had been fighting the anti-Choice misgynist (0+ / 0-)

                movement for as long as I have, you will realize that HL's attack on Family Planning is yet another plank in a platform that seeks to deny women their ability to control their reproductive processes and that includes blocking, denying, outlawing or defunding access to regular birth control, Sex education, abortions, emergency contaceptives, and even reproductive cancer prevention.

                Not only is believed that sex is only for procreation, but that the wages of sin (sex for women and gays) death--see Cancer and AIDs.

                You only see HL's ridiculous case. I see a mountain of shit generated by HL and a lot of other religious assholes who own companies or who are politicians, who seek to force their religious beliefs on all of us, starting with women, and GLBT community via legislation of their biblical moral code by any means necessary.

                "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

                by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:38:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  That's the whole point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenMother

      How can they beef on behalf of the employees, who are ALSO paying for some of it? What about the employee's beliefs?
       

      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

      by lunachickie on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:12:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think this really comes down to 1 dollar= 1vote (0+ / 0-)

        Our beliefs don't matter because little people only get 1 vote, if they can qualify to vote that is.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:48:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think in the case of Hobby Lobby, they (4+ / 0-)

    don't care how small a portion of coverage is their responsibility.  Their main concern is that they not be a party in any way to women having individual power over their lives, because it offends their so-called "Christian" sensibilities.  In their view, a few birth control methods--not all, but some--constitute de-facto abortion.  For this reason, even a dime of their money should not be provided which might end up causing abortion.  

    The fact that many of the products they sell are made in China, where forced abortions are frequent, doesn't seem to enter their calculations.  And this article in Salon explains that Hobby Lobby is

    providing funding for a group that backs a political network of activist groups deeply engaged in pushing a Christian agenda into American law. The document shows entities related to the company to be two of the largest donors to the organization funding a right-wing Christian agenda, investing tens, if not hundreds, of millions of dollars into a vast network of organizations working in concert to advance an agenda that would allow businesses to discriminate against gays and lesbians and deny their employees contraceptives under a maximalist interpretation of the Free Exercise Clause of the United States Constitution.

    "It ain't right, Atticus," said Jem. "No, son, it ain't right." --Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird

    by SottoVoce on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:36:28 AM PDT

    •  THIS! Too. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SottoVoce

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 06:50:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Following this same reasoning.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GreenMother, SottoVoce

      ... why couldn't Hobby Lobby demand that its employees not  use any of the wages they are paid to buy abortion-related (or unapproved contraception-related) products or services.  Why shouldn't it have just as much religious right to control over use of wages as it claims over use of insurance benefits -- these are simply different forms of compensation.  In fact, if corporations are persons for persons for purposes of RFRA, why should they not be able to fire any employee who has an abortion or uses disapproved contrqception methods.  If they don't have such "right", they are still being forced to fund morally objectionable uses of "their" money.

      Hobby Lobby (and its pal's) claim sounds like it should be treated as a very poor April Fool's joke.

      •  I am hoping that if they don't go out of business (0+ / 0-)

        soon, that their supporters will be burdened with having to spend a lot of money there to make up for the lost customer base of pissed off women, like myself who refuse to go there every again, now or in the future.

        They can go back to being a store run out of a garage. Then it won't matter what the owners beliefs are, because he will be the only one working there.

        "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

        by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:22:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Are they self insured? (0+ / 0-)

      In all the debate, I have never seen anyone address this issue, which could very well be the point the Supreme Court rules on.

      If they purchase their health care from an insurance company, (who is required to cover these services) it isn't like they can separate the cost out and get a discount.

      If they are self insured, then reproductive services are just a benefit they don't provide, and the justices may rule that just as there are no laws requiring employers to provide paid holidays or sick leave, etc, they may be within their rights to deny this coverage.

      It should be a moot argument, since the ACA requires anyone offering a health plan to cover family planning, but who knows how this Supreme Court will rule.

      "The long memory is the most radical idea in this country." Utah Phillips 1935 - 2008

      by Grey Fedora on Sun Apr 06, 2014 at 12:54:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This (4+ / 0-)

    too brings more questions in the recent diaries.

    Read the diary here

     

    They may be closed for business on Sunday  but their managers have to work on Sundays to re-stock their shelves and do inventory.  They refuse to use bar codes which would help with both because, don't you know, barcodes are the sign of The Beast.

    And another at this diary

    Documents filed with the Department of Labor and dated December 2012—three months after the company's owners filed their lawsuit—show that the Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).

    I'm confused too GreenMother, why the supremes would even consider taking this suit on... Perhaps I confuse easily

    •  Wow to that second quote Skyye-- (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Skyye

      Very Interesting. I plan to quote those in an update.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:19:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No Doubt! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GreenMother

        The diaries are way more indepth and excellent points too by the authors!

         but really why and how is it this can even BE at the Supreme court and my real question, is:

        Did the defense (sebilious) place these things into evidence for their argument?

        If so.. back to how is it even accepted for a ruling?  I realize that the GOPTEA have been making an obvious effort to push all they can to the supremes while they have a conservative standing there but... really? This one?

        •  Look at who is on the bench. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Skyye, Caniac41

          The product of a decades long attempt to over turn RoeV Wade and the Griswold cases.

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:40:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  YEP! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother

            Maybe that is the real answer to how and why this could even be considered?

            Looks plausible to me, let's now see how it turns out.

            No matter though, imo, the tide has turned and transformation on a huge scale is inevitable! Just looking at the fact that President Barack was voted in by Popular vote TWICE, I say not only yes we can but yes we DO!

            Just an opinion, so... but... i'll go back to another round of caffiene now!

            Thanks for this diary, it's provided a good question for logic and opportunity for good POV convo!

            •  Thanks Skyye (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Skyye

              I with you on the coffee.

              "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

              by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:30:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  And don't companies (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    get a tax break for providing insurance??? correct me if I'm wrong.

    Why do Republicans Hate Americans?

    by Caniac41 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:19:34 AM PDT

    •  I didn't see that at a glance, (0+ / 0-)

      But that doesn't mean I used the correct search paradigm.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:34:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Okay found a mention (0+ / 0-)
      Geronimi, who is vice president of business development for the company, expressed surprise that another provision of the ACA provides tax credits to cover the cost of insurance for businesses with fewer than the equivalent of 25 full-time workers. Those tax credits already are in effect, with the maximum amount increasing from up to 35 percent of the cost of insurance to up to 50 percent on January 1.
      http://www.njspotlight.com/...
      This is from 2010, did this provision survive? I read that it might be phased out by 2015. http://www.academyhealth.org/...

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 11:57:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •   corporations are not people (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother

    they cannot have religious beliefs. the only things business should concern itself with are making ends meet to keep the doors open, paying the employees enough so they can feed their families, and be a good member of its community- do charitable work,  give money to help set aside parks, etc. it has no say  in whether its employees use their healthcare coverage to get birth control or abortion. the opinion of the company owner dies not matter.

    •  All the more reason to overturn Citizens United. (0+ / 0-)

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:32:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  As The Rude Pundit points out (3+ / 0-)

    Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby: Discount Crosses and Abortion

    - HL buys most of their crap from China
    - There is no private ownership of business in China so, essentially, HL is giving money to the Chinese government.
    - The Chinese enforce a strict one-child policy, and this includes forced abortions.

    He may not be the first person to say that if anti-choice lawmakers really gave a damn about abortion, they would try to ban American companies from doing business with China until it changed its policy. But he would like to be the first person to say this: When you buy a cross at Hobby Lobby, you are helping to pay for abortions in China.
    HL hypocrisy knows no ends.

    It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness- Unknown -7.50, -5.03

    by dawgflyer13 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:30:27 AM PDT

    •  Stay Classy Hobby Lobby (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Caniac41
      When you buy a cross at Hobby Lobby, you are helping to pay for abortions in China.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Tue Apr 01, 2014 at 07:41:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hell, if these guys got their way... (0+ / 0-)

    ...they'd be calling any wages at all entitlement (being sure to put the sneer on the word) - and they'd have the RW rank-and-files happily voting against their own right to take-home pay.

    They even have a big yellow smiley face over the company store where the workers can spend their scrip.

    Thank God, the Bob Fosse Kid is here! - Colin Mochrie

    by gardnerhill on Thu Apr 03, 2014 at 03:59:20 PM PDT

  •  This may well be a Pyrrhic victory: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreenMother


    99% of sexually experienced women have used contraception sometime during their lives.
    69% of all couples regularly use contraception
    68% of Catholic and 74% of Evangelical women at risk of pregnancy use contraception

         These numbers make it clear this isn’t a deep morality issue for society. The religious right’s outrage becomes a snit over an institutional morality injunction that they can’t even enforce among their own church membership.  

    Even if they win the case, I can see them losing a lot of customers!

    "The long memory is the most radical idea in this country." Utah Phillips 1935 - 2008

    by Grey Fedora on Sun Apr 06, 2014 at 01:03:04 PM PDT

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