Skip to main content

The presentation Finnish cyber security researcher, Mikko Hypponen, gave at the TED Conference in Brussels six months ago explains what you should know. This is going to become a bread and butter issue for Americans. Burying your head in the sand won’t make the problem go away.  It will only make the eventual consequences worse when they come along.

The US is performing blanket surveillance on foreigners whose data passes through an American entity, whether they are suspected of wrongdoing or not. Internet users in the EU aren't as nonchalant about being watched as Americans. To protect privacy rights, the EU is moving forward to find alternative solutions to using American companies for the world's information needs.

News reported by McClatchy today shows that the US is moving in the wrong direction, even though the President announced a month ago at the EU Summit a proposal to end bulk data collection.
"Employees of U.S. intelligence agencies have been barred from discussing any intelligence-related matter - even if it isn't classified - with journalists, under a new directive issued by Director of National Security James Clapper." - McClatchy
It's time to show Mr. Clapper to the door. He can't be trusted with the responsabilities he was given, as he demonstrates again and again.
The story was also covered by the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) Project on Government Secrecy. Their website is a good resource for information.
If you have time, reset the Hypponen video to the beginning and watch the whole presentation. It’s 18 minutes.

Ask yourself whether the US can afford to have a $250 billion bite taken out of its economy.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Clapper wouldn't be doing that (18+ / 0-)

    Without Obama's approval. Not surprising though, Obama says one thing and does another, time and time again. Neoconservative on foreign policy, neoliberal on fiscal policy. He'll dress it up in progressive language when he wants something from the public, but in the end, he is what he is.

    First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

    by Hannibal on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:09:14 PM PDT

    •  It's dangerous to use such blanket statements. (9+ / 0-)

      I disagree with calling President Obama a "Neoconservative on foreign policy".  I believe if he actually was that, we'd have had boots on the ground in Libya, Syria and Iran by now, with probably much more active interest in Egypt.  I also think we'd still have an active presence in Iraq and wouldn't still be drawing down troops in Afghanistan.

      I just believe the neocons want war, more war and all the largesse the federal government can shower them with while never having to risk the lives of anyone in their own families.  Have there still be continuations of actions we Kossacks find objectionable, like drone strikes and the surveillance state?  Hell, yes, and President Obama can't blame that on the previous administration after five plus years in office.  Still, I don't call him a neocon because I believe he is winding down the shooting war diplomacy of the US.

      •  Not even Dubya Bush put boots on the ground (12+ / 0-)

        in Iran, although Darth Cheney wanted to.  Are you saying that Dubya Bush wasn't a neocon either?

        And we got what we wanted in Egypt, namely a return to military dictatorship.  We also got what we wanted in Libya, namely nice contracts for oil multis.

        Yeah, Obama was frustrated on Syria.  Thank heavens for small favors.

        •  How was Obama 'frustrated' on Syria? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fou

          Your contention seems to be that Obama secretly wanted to invade Syria and then outmaneuvered himself by tricking Russia into taking responsibility for his ally.

          Really?

          I mean please pick an argument either Obama is some MENSA level strategic genius or he's too dumb to put socks on, which is it?

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:32:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (7+ / 0-)
            I mean please pick an argument either Obama is some MENSA level strategic genius or he's too dumb to put socks on, which is it?
            Neither, of course, but thanks for playing. :-)

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:41:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not 'playing' (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fou

              you have made this contention repeatedly in the face of the actual facts saying otherwise. I think it's past time you put aside your bias and actually made your case for how Obama wanted to invade Syria or drop it.

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:43:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  All those red lines and Munich Moments (8+ / 0-)

                climaxing in a now thoroughly discredited claim of Syrian government use of chemical weapons (see here) . . . and you managed to miss all of it.

                Unless of course what you're really saying is that Obama has no control over his own government . . . which, quite frankly, wouldn't make me any happier.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:50:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  W put boots on the ground in Afghanistan and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          duhban

          Iraq.  Because they bungled those so badly, especially with Iraq, because they had no legitimate right to invade in the first place (at least with Afghanistan the claim could be made that they wouldn't surrender Bin Laden and Al Quaida), that's all that stopped them from going on to Iran like the Saudis wanted them to.  Had Neocon McCain won in 2008, it would have been bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.

          Obama was never going to be that stupid or war-like without solid provocation, which of course Iran never gave.

          •  That's why one creates provocations (0+ / 0-)

            like phony analyses of WMD attacks.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 05:40:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The issues spread into the private sector. Part of (10+ / 0-)

        it is in the government obviously, but it isn't confined there.

        To get at the full extent of the problem, people have to learn to consider how much of it lies in commercial business enterprises.

        It's counterproductive to focus on Obama. But the media hasn't been informative. It's corporate-owned and it's not going to educate people about the issue comprehensively.

    •  I write about mass surveillance practices from the (19+ / 0-)

      outside looking in. The EU did an extensive investigation and its findings include concerns about the lack of control over the intelligence community. It's a mind boggling report but nearly unknown in the US. The investigation included access to the Treasury Dept, Justice Dept, and White House, 15 hearings, testimony from Snowden, law enforcement, and more. When all the pieces are laid out like a detective would do, there should be concerns about the practices.  

      •  Here's one for you Mark... (14+ / 0-)

        ...along with the Drug Enforcement Administration, the White House directly funds our nation's largest domestic surveillance dragnet--the AT&T Hemisphere program--so it's all covered by "executive privilege." Essentially, the NSA is somewhat of a shiny object, as far as domestic surveillance is concerned. (It's getting most of the press now, but, as far as domestic surveillance is concerned, it's responsible for less than half of the of domestic surveillance. The NSA does rely on Hemisphere, however, just like all of the other federal law enforcement/intelligence agencies.) Don't get me wrong, the NSA is engaged in massive amounts of domestic surveillance, but the Hemisphere program's even bigger!) Hemisphere feeds direct wiretap data to more than a dozen federal law enforcement agencies; they, in turn, share this info with local law enforcement throughout the country.

        For the record: the Wiki entry, linked above, on this is NOT complete (nor fully accurate).

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:49:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I think companies (9+ / 0-)

        who provide global cloud services, etc., are aware and are very concerned about the report.

        You touch on it in your diary, but it doesn't get much exposure from the NSA-related diaries I've read - the economic impact to the US, and specifically jobs. I believe that concern is very real.

        The cloud companies will find ways to survive - like providing in country data storage etc. But that will be at the expense of American jobs.

        Amazon and Apple have built huge data centers in the US to provide global cloud services. We'll see those centers, or parts of them move overseas.

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:55:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They're very concerned (7+ / 0-)

          about having been caught -- after having been active and even eager participants for several years.

          F*** 'em.  Maybe we should go full steam ahead on mass surveillance; foreign outrage might just kill off those corps, or at least make them hurt.

          Obviously Our Government doesn't plan to do the right thing, so is there really any other way?

        •  TruthOut has an ugly, reality-based report on... (11+ / 0-)

          ...on Silicon Valley's AstroTurfing...

          Tech Companies Adopt Astroturf to Get Their (Wicked) Way
          Sunday, 20 April 2014 00:00 By Toshio Meronek , Truthout | News Analysis

          In 2013, the 10 biggest tech companies upped their spending on lobbying by 16 percent over the previous year.

          Companies like Amazon, Google and IBM spent far more than most pharmaceutical firms, the National Rifle Association, RJ Reynolds Tobacco, and others that we tend to associate with trying to control the conversation in Washington DC. And just like these other lobbiers, tech megacorps are casting a lot of their money toward causes that increase social and economic inequality, like pushing for cheaper labor and tax breaks for the richest of the rich.

          To achieve these goals, tech corporations have begun embracing a strategy that is widely known as "astroturfing": Lobbying in a sneaky, roundabout fashion, by setting up their own faux-grassroots organizations. Executives at tech's largest companies, like Facebook, LinkedIn and Microsoft spend millions on lobbying indirectly through nonprofit groups that promote a grassroots image, but are in reality the tentacles of corporate interests that are just trying to forward their own agendas.

          "You see groups all the time that clearly aren't grassroots by what a normal person would assume is grassroots," says Robert Maguire, political nonprofits investigator at the Center for Responsive Politics. But tech companies are recent adopters of the strategy as a public relations tool, and their influence is growing…

          FWD.us: Militarizing Borders and Slashing Wages

          ..FWD.us doesn't go out of its way to hide the fact that its controlling members are tech industry billionaires, but you could easily be fooled by its current focus of "building a grassroots movement" of ordinary citizens like you and me to pass immigration reform.

          That sounds benign enough, until you learn more about the type of reform FWD.us is pushing for. The group favors a certain type of immigrant: highly-skilled, foreign tech workers who would be cheaper to hire than their American counterparts. Net effect: lower wages for everyone.

          Before directing its focus on immigration reform, the group had made the mistake of campaigning for the Keystone XL pipeline, which turned out to be somewhat unpopular among many of FWD.us' richest members…

          "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

          by bobswern on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:09:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What appears in US media is spotty. (10+ / 0-)

          In the EU it's snowballing. A couple of weeks ago the EU High Court struck down the law that regulates the collection and storage of metadata.

          I was glad to see that ArcTechnica did a great job of reporting.

          http://arstechnica.com/...

          The NSA is only part of the story. Forget about that and think of your clicks and keystrokes as personal data that belongs to you and that you should be able to keep private if you want.  But that data is taken, mostly without your explicit consent, and it's used and re-used to generate huge profits. Hypponen goes into this a bit.

          Would it be possible to have a non-commercial internet?

          •  It is indeed a major issue in Europe (7+ / 0-)

            In the work I do, it has become real in a very fast way. I am seeing EU member government agencies writing contracts forbidding data storage or data transfer to or through the US. Actually, they don't call out the US specifically, but they say the data must stay in country.

            This will have disastrous consequences to the US economy and specifically US jobs. We don't export much except services and this issue goes the heart of those services.

            I suspect that is why people like Zuckerburg have been calling Obama directly.

            You touch on what I've considered a more serious issue than the NSA scandal. Google, Facebook, Twitter, et al have been "spying" on us 10X more than the NSA and in much more insidious ways. Thats why I've never gotten too hot and bothered about the NSA issues. The EU has been far more aware and proactive on this issue than we will ever be.

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:46:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was expecting a different ending on this (5+ / 0-)

              sentence:

              I suspect that is why people like Zuckerburg have been . . .

              . . . selling all their shares. The party could be over.

              The lack of awareness about privacy is amazing. What did those businesses do to preserve the privacy that is a cornerstone of democracy? They conditioned the public to accept the idea of data collection as innocuous marketing and fortunes were made.

              The internet we have now will, please God, one day soon become an artifact we remember with a snicker, like 8-track tapes.

              •  internet = 8-track. Very, very true (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mark Lippman, tardis10, CroneWit

                Zuckerburg has to sell his shares. Because he owned such a large chunk of shares, buyers are reluctant to buy because his activity could sway the market price in any direction he wanted. A shareholder owning too much of a company is not a good thing for the stock price and actually depresses it.

                Good article on Facebook, and the downside risk of Zuckerberg being majority shareholder:

                http://www.bloomberg.com/...

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 04:20:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  This really has little or nothing (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      allie4fairness, Sunspots, melo, CroneWit

      to do with foreign policy or neoconservatism.  This is about domestic surveillance of Americans.  

      The diary presents it in the light of our allies and trade partners searching for alternative methods and pathways to the Internet that can avoid going through the US backbone (and, hence, through Clapper's microscope).  

      It was inevitable that this would happen because even if nobody cares about the tender feelings of individuals who have their privacy violated, there are a lot of corporate businesses with ties to foreign governments that DO care about it, and have the kind of pull that you and I don't to see that alternatives are actively sought.  If you're a French manufacturer of drone plane parts that is competing with US corporations, you certainly wouldn't want secret US bureaucracies having a free peep show view of the new technology and trade deals you're working on.

  •  You assume that most people here (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, DiesIrae

    support Clapper et al?

    Play chess for the Kossacks on Chess.com. Join the site, then the group at http://www.chess.com/groups/view/kossacks.

    by rhutcheson on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:10:30 PM PDT

    •  Or do you assume that I assume and is what (9+ / 0-)

      anyone assumes really the subject to worry about?

      No, the subject is the illegal NSA practices and the diary is addressed to those who aren't concerned.

      The Mikko Hypponen video explains what the concerns are.
      It also answers some of the arguments that are used to brush aside the gravity of the issue. We've all heard those arguments and it's useful to hear them answered.

      •  I haven't watched the video yet... (7+ / 0-)

        But I know that besides violating the Constitution, the surveillance state facilitates social injustices. Issues like the two-tiered justice system, the oppression of protests by environmentalists and other activists, and racial profiling are all made easier for law enforcement to use to intimidate citizens through clandestine surveillance.

        The surveillance state touches every American in adverse ways... whether they're doing anything wrong or not.

        Now, I'll watch the video. lol

        Thanks for the diary, Mark

        "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." - 17th-century French clergyman and statesman Cardinal Richelieu.

        by markthshark on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:06:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm trying to get you to explain why, (0+ / 0-)

        given your provocative title"Why You Should Re-Think Where You Stand on Mass Surveillance", you have concluded that most people here support mass surveillance.

        I have not seen any diaries, and very few comments supporting NSA/CIA surveillance programs, but have seen many attacking them.

        Play chess for the Kossacks on Chess.com. Join the site, then the group at http://www.chess.com/groups/view/kossacks.

        by rhutcheson on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 10:59:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are welcome to click my name and browse the (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freakofsociety

          list of diaries I posted here on this topic.

          This diary is for everyone, no matter where they stand.

          Following standard professional old-school journalism standards, I start with "the lede" in the first paragraph. (Lede is correct spelling.) "The lede" is the single most important piece of information in the article.

          This is going to become a bread and butter issue for Americans.
          No matter where people stand, I don't see much discussion at all in the entire US media about this. I think it's a worthwhile topic that has been under-reported in the US. It's information that might affect readers in different ways depending how they think, but valuable for all.

          It's a complex topic with a depth of information which is practically absent from discussion in the US. As you can see from these titles, I'm tracking the EU as it moves "forward to find alternative solutions to using American companies for the world's information needs."

          The video is there to introduce you to an idea:
          The EU will reject American commercial business enterprises that don't respect EU privacy standards.  The US economy could lose $250 billion a year as a result.

          Isn't this a message important enough for ALL Americans to consider?

          TITLE DATE
          EU Draft Resolution: Numerous concerns about out of control NSA with unknown agenda 1/20/2014
          Frustrated German TV show host to Obama: “I feel that you are not getting to a point.” (Video) 1/22/2014
          EU Plans for Digital Habeas Corpus, Renews Call for Snowden to Testify 1/31/2014
          EU Vote Demanding End to Mass Surveillance Passes 33-7 with 17 abstaining 2/12/2014
          US Tech Industry Faces Backlash Over Data Collection Practices in Europe 3/11/2014
          European Parliament Approves Digital Bill of Rights, Rejects Asylum for Snowden 3/12/2014
          Justin Amash: "Where the data is stored is far from the main problem with what the NSA is doing." 3/26/2014
          Why You Should Re-Think Where You Stand on Mass Surveillance 4/21/2014
    •  That would, unfortunately, be (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CroneWit

      a correct assumption.  

      •  I have no clue what world you live in. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DiesIrae, duhban, allie4fairness

        Most people here do not support the spying. Sure there are some who do and they are quite vocal but the majority of this site is against it. Even the people who do support it do so in varying degrees and there is a lot of nuance to their postitions.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:04:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  maybe it's just me, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          420 forever

          I tend to place more weight on the Site Leadership than on the lurkers.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:11:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Which is silly considering (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban

            there are over a million UIDs here.

            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

            by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:14:31 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, it's precisely that statistic (0+ / 0-)

              that makes it not silly.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:15:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't want to get into a meta discussion (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DiesIrae, duhban

                in this diary so I will leave it with this. Very few people care what Markos' position is on any given issue because believe it or not they can make up their own minds. I see this same friggin complaint every single day in diaries like this or nes that are even more hard on the administration or Democrats in general and what makes the argument beyond silly is the very fact of where it is being made. Maybe it's just me but if you can't see the absurdity of claiming that the "leadership" of this site is stifling the ability to disagree with them on the site in a diary disagreeing with them you lose the argument before it even starts.

                Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:21:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  this is of course incorrect: (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CroneWit
                  Very few people care what Markos' position is on any given issue because believe it or not they can make up their own minds.
                  Correct is that many people care what the Site Leadership (and that ain't just MMZ) thinks on a given issue -- and make up their own minds anyway.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:24:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  On what do you base your assertions, Mike S? (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not aware of any definitive, scientific polling that has been done here on people's positions on spying.  So, on what do you base your assertions ton --

          Most people here do not support the spying . . .  some who do [quite vocal] . . . majority of this site is against  . ..
          You might feel like or think that your statement represents reality; it might be your opinion that 'Most people . . . etc'.

          But you appear to be asserting your position as fact; if it is fact-based, please show us those facts.  Thank you.

          •  Gee. I wonder why you don't ask the same (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            freakofsociety

            question with the comment I was responding to.

            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

            by Mike S on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 10:43:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Because I was responding to your 'most' etc (0+ / 0-)

              'Parent-ing' back, I find that the chain-of-response leading to you comment was --

              1.
              You assume that most people here (2+ / 0-)
              support Clapper et al?
              http://www.dailykos.com/...
              2. (one of many replies)
              That would, unfortunately, be (1+ / 0-)
              a correct assumption.  
              http://www.dailykos.com/...
              3. then your comment see below)
              4.  to which commenter #2 replied --
               maybe it's just me, but (1+ / 0-)
              I tend to place more weight on the Site Leadership than on the lurkers.
              http://www.dailykos.com/...
              The other commentors leading to your comment spoke of 'assumptions', and the person you replied to gave the basis for her(?) assumption, based on her opinion.

              Your comment was --

              (#3 above) I have no clue what world you live in. (3+ / 0-)
              Most people here do not support the spying. Sure there are some who do and they are quite vocal but the majority of this site is against it. Even the people who do support it do so in varying degrees and there is a lot of nuance to their postitions.
              http://www.dailykos.com/...
              You did not identify your comment as an assumption or an opinion.  You stated 'most' and 'some' and 'the majority' and 'degrees' and 'nuance' as though they were well-known facts available to anyone.

              So I asked 'on what do you base your assertions?' -- a question that you have not answered.

              •  When someone says "that is a correct assumption" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                freakofsociety

                that means that they say that most people here do support government surveillance. So again, why did you ask me and not him?

                Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                by Mike S on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 11:42:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  As I said above -- (0+ / 0-)
                  The other commentors leading to your comment spoke of 'assumptions', and the person you replied to gave the basis for her(?) assumption, based on her opinion.
                  They identified their statements as 'assumptions', while you stated yours as fact.
                  So I asked 'on what do you base your assertions?' -- a question that you have not answered.
                  One way of answering would be to say, 'I have no factual basis for my statements.'  Another would be 'I base my statements on [link to, and/or title of, substantiating document].

                  Or you could say, 'It is my opinion that . . ..', or 'I assume that . . ..'.

            •  If two people want mass surveillance to end, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              freakofsociety

              I'd rather see them use diplomacy and persuasion on the people who still justify mass surveillance.  When two people object to mass surveillance, and they end up in conflict with each other, the power that comes from working together is dissipated.

              Fear and anger, and the conflicts that result, can be habitual. Even addictive. But in the end, there's nothing constructive in that direction.

              •  Very good point (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                freakofsociety

                But then there's the inquisition by CroneWit. It sort of reminds why participating in NSA/Snowden diaries is a waste of electrons.

                Good diary Mark.

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 11:59:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I hope people can see that the idea here is not to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  freakofsociety

                  take sides but to consider having only one side.

                  All I'm saying is that it's important to think about unity.  
                  It relates to a comment about fear near the bottom of the page.

                  •  Your title drew me in (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mark Lippman, freakofsociety

                    Frankly, I haven't cared that much about the Surveillance issue. Not at the top of my list. So, you made a compelling case for why we should care. And I appreciate that.

                    For me, the most compelling issue is the impact it will have on our economy and jobs. Thats a good reason to care.

                    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                    by fcvaguy on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 01:22:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Oh look the NSA costing American jobs (11+ / 0-)

    By making our data infrastructure unwanted.

    Who are the terrorists?

  •  Counter-terrorism has become an existential threat (10+ / 0-)

    The NSA was given a blank check (literally) after 9/11.  

    The existence of America as we know it.

    Mas surveillance, police militarization, the "Patriot" Act, etc.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:16:18 PM PDT

  •  I thought it was bad years (8+ / 0-)

    ago when Bush was doing it.  Now that Obama won't end it, I think I like it even less.

    Big Brother isn't making us safer, it is just marking us as 'the enemy'.  

    •  Big Brother Hasn't Represented Us Since Disco. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      allie4fairness, CroneWit

      We haven't exactly been his good buddy for half of living memory.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:32:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a problem that hasn't had the kind of (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fcvaguy, jfromga, CroneWit

      attention in the US that it gets in the EU. When it's all laid out it becomes obvious that there's much more to it than Obama. It started before him and it will go on after him too as long as Americans think the president can wave a magic wand. Do you want to know why it continues? The answer is $$$$$. There are profits involved.

      •  I believe part of it is our TV culture. (5+ / 0-)

        When you watch cop shows or spy shows you actually see them using a lot of this tech but it is always in order to save someone from impending death or capture someone who has done horrendous things.

        Even the show "Person of Interest" shows a major piece of surveilance equipment that watches every single thing that everyone in the country does but they show it as something again that is used for noble purposes. Occasionally they will show some bad guy within the government that wants to use it for his own purposes but they are always thwarted in the end.

        We get lulled to sleep with shows like that. How can it be a bad thing when we watch it save countless lives every week right there on our very own teevee??

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:58:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well keep in mind that in Person of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allie4fairness

          Interest the system operates completely on it's own and can actively defend itself against attempts to misuse it.  Of course, even if we could build a surveilance system like that we could very well end up with an Eagle Eye type situation (where the system decides to eliminate the president and his cabinet).  Or even worse, a hard takeoff singularity where it decides the only thing to do is to wipe out or totally enslave humanity and ends up doing things like using it's quantum processors to teleport an asteroid over a major city in complete violation of the known laws of physics or perhaps creating drones to cut everyone's head off so that it can forcibly upload their minds.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:12:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  there are also plenty of shows that (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allie4fairness

          show technology in a less than flattering light too. To be really honest this conversation we're having isn't really new. We had it with on mailed letters (and later the USPS) and then with the telephone and now we're having it again with the cellular system and the internet. Likely if we ever go full cyberpunk and get cyberized minds that allow us to talk mind to mind over the networks we'll have this conversation again.

          With every new technological watershed moment there's always a fierce discussion on whether, when and how to use it.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:41:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  just like weaponry (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jfromga, Mark Lippman

            the opening scene from 2001 to the forging of a steel blade to gunpowder to nuclear weapons to chem, bio, and cyber weapons.

            But the thing is; in both instances, the level of potential harm  is higher and higher. At some point that same fierce discussion does change, because the consequences are orders of magnitude more serious than with cave paintings and sharp sticks.
            We are at that point with mass surveillance.

            Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

            by kamarvt on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 04:21:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  why should Obama 'end it'? (0+ / 0-)

      I'm just curious how you propose to deal with the technology and capabilities created by the internet?

      With the advent of the telephone there was a lot of push and pull on exactly what the government could do, when it could do it and how it could do it. No one though that I know of ever proposed that the government could never do it (well okay some people probably did but they lost that argument from the start).

      For better or worse we not only created this genie but we let it out of the bottle. I think the most productive conversation we could have is what our limits are and where they are. Because talking about stuffing the genie back in or even worse just ignoring it will get us no where.

      Der Weg ist das Ziel

      by duhban on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:38:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are guns everywhere in this country (1+ / 0-)

        should we legalize murder?  Because we have the technology is not a moral imperative.

        Warrants, protections of civil rights can and should return, no mass collection of every single piece of data just in case can be the rule.    Scared shitless is just no way to determine the real security needs of this country.

        •  that is an audacious strawman (0+ / 0-)

          but still a straw man.

          I'll say it again if you think  the government is not going to use this technology to one extent or another to enforce laws then you are incredibly naive. 'NO!' while emotionally fulfilling is unconstructive and entirely unlikely to succeed.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 09:45:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  oh my goodness (1+ / 0-)

            so you buy into the idea that the government can do something so we should all just take what they give us.

            Analogies are not necessarily strawmen, and sometimes that are good at illustrating the lack of logic in an assertion.

            Or do you think the Six Million Dollar Man intro is law not science fiction?

            •  you realize that (0+ / 0-)
              so you buy into the idea that the government can do something so we should all just take what they give us.
              is another strawman?

              Just because my position is the genie is out of the bottle and we're not shoving it back in doesn't mean my position is to passively take whatever 'the government' wants to give us?

              And your 'analogy' isn't an analogy it's a straw man. It has no relation to what we are talking about and it's silly and ridiculous. Even worse instead of dealing with my points you tried to use that ridiculousness to just dismiss my argument away.

              That's what makes it a straw man.

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 11:07:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  so despite my opposition (1+ / 0-)

                it is naive and childish, but your opposition is adult, except I can't find your opposition.

                •  I just looked though my comments to you (0+ / 0-)

                  and can not find one time that I called you childish. I did say I think that putting the genie back in the bottle is naive and if that is what you mean by 'opposition' then yes I do think that naive.

                  However I have explained why I think that naive and you have explain what exactly?

                  Der Weg ist das Ziel

                  by duhban on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 02:40:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  you seem to think (0+ / 0-)

                    that the government is above the law, or so out of touch with the people, that even if we want the law changed, vote in new congresscritters, since the technology exists, the government will continue to collect all data from all sources without warrants or court review or reasonable cause to suspect anyone.

                    The mail always passed through government hands and yet in the old days, they managed to more or less follow the rules, and every single piece of mail was not opened.

                    So why can't the rule of law be imposed that NSA shall not collect everything, if they want something they get a warrant, even a FISA court warrant which is astoundingly easy to get, and follow the law.

                    So if someone says they oppose the present system, they are naive.   If you say, it can't be done, you are speaking truth.   You gave no facts, no argument that supports that the government can't be stopped.

                    And if it can't be stopped then we need to go ahead and say the government has passed into illegitimacy under the Constitution and do something about it.  

                    You are an interesting contributor, but pretty much a naysayer and combative without reason.  Your way or you'll become agressive.  Your comment string is one negative encounter after another.   This isn't sparring practice.   Change venues if you are just looking for fights rather than factual discussion.

                    •  no I don't (0+ / 0-)

                      and I am sick of this oversimplification knee jerk response. I do however deal in real world practicalities and since you spoke about voting here's a real world fact for you

                      Despite Congress having absurdly low approval the vast majority of Congress will be reelected including most of the Republicans despite the fact that most of the people voting them in are voting against their own interests.

                      Why don't you stop constructing straw men and deal with my actual points? They're above if you want to reread them.

                      And here's the thing jfromga I have a low bullshit tolerance level especially on this topic. So yes I'm not going to let you keep straw manning this topic into something you think you can 'win' while ignoring my points. If you want to think of that as "combative without reason" :shrug: whatever. I personally think you're still dodging my points because you can not cope with them.

                      More over everything I say is just my opinion but it's an opinion based on actual history which I encourage yo you to read. Again you're ducking my actual argument and attacking me personally instead and yet you want to call me negative? Yeah whatever on that score.

                      Last thought, just what 'facts' have you brought to this factual discussion? I've brought the history of the mail and telephone system and you have?

                      Der Weg ist das Ziel

                      by duhban on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 09:40:16 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  you haven't made a single point to me (1+ / 0-)

                        except the genie can't go back in the bottle.

                        That isn't a point.  It is a strawman as you keep repeating.

                        So if you have a point that isn't an attack on me.

                        The mail and the telephone require warrants in advance, I said that the last time.    So why doesn't other electronic media, cell phone, ipad, computer, you name it,  require warrants.  Just because it is simple to collect doesn't mean we should.

                        I expressed an opinion the first time.  After that I answered you.

                        So why aren't you reading my posts, or do you have a problem acknowledging words from anyone who isn't you.

                        •  refusing to acknowledge my points (0+ / 0-)

                          doesn't make them go away they just make you look silly.

                          Go read the history of search and seizure especially in regards to the telephone.

                          Der Weg ist das Ziel

                          by duhban on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 01:40:07 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I did read your point (1+ / 0-)

                            and answered it,  I am not half so interested in your view of the history, but the law.   Which requires warrants for a typical criminal matter.  I also acknowledged the FISA courts and their abilities.

                            So I have put more facts on the line, not a haughty go read the history of the telephone.   Because I read the law, I know what is 'normal', I know that there are arguments that cell phones don't need warrants, but we were already into the wingers taking over the courts.  

                            So pretty much,  I have a policy position, you have a you can't put a genie back in a bottle, we have the technology argument.  Either you have something more factual to say, or not.

                          •  the history includes the law though (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm also pretty sure you don't know my policy position given you're too interested in looking down your nose at me.

                            Der Weg ist das Ziel

                            by duhban on Wed Apr 23, 2014 at 03:57:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't look down my nose (0+ / 0-)

                            at you, but I do wonder about you.

                            As I send, you are an interesting contributor, but you don't seem to know how to contribute without tearing down someone else.   You don't need to do that.  You can be heard and understood, and even be more convincing if you said something like I don't agree with your opinion and this is why . . . , instead of calling names, throwing insults, etc.  

                            A little snark, a little sarcastic humor, is all fine, but you jump past that to attack with no reason.  Lots of smart people here, lots of people who know as much as you do and come to different conclusions.  Show some respect and you'll get more respect when you do disagree with someone.   That isn't looking down my nose at you,  that is just some advice that you can take or leave.

        •  Your debate opponent downthread from here (0+ / 0-)

          has nothing that works to quiet down the concerns raised in the EU. It's their objections that will end up costing Americans when they boot US businesses out of Europe.

  •  Marcy Wheeler has very important commentary... (18+ / 0-)

    ...on this story, as well. The ban on any communication with "the media" includes bloggers, too. It's funny how the government's new Shield Law does NOT protect bloggers, yet the NSA is acknowledging that the blogosphere is the media when it comes to their internal rules.

    All Published IC Comment Should Be Considered Propaganda
    Published April 21, 2014 | By emptywheel

    Steve Aftergood reports that James Clapper has done what Congress refused to do: forbid any unauthorized contact between Intelligence Community staffers and any member of an unbelievably broadly defined media. The order requires IC employees to obtain authorization for contacts with the media, and report any unplanned contacts.

    3. Contact by IC employees with the media on covered matters must be authorized by their IC element.
    a. Within the IC, only the head or deputy head of an IC element, the designated public affairs official, and other persons designated in agency policy or authorized by that public affairs official are authorized to have contact with the media on covered matters, except as provided below.
    b. IC employees, as defined in EO 12333, Section 3.5(d), not designated in accordance with Section D.3.a, must obtain authorization for contacts with the media on covered matters through the office responsible for public affairs for their IC element, and must also report to that office unplanned or unintentional contact with the media on covered matters.
    4. No substantive information should be provided to the media regarding covered matters in the case of unplanned or unintentional contacts. Authorization for a particular contact on covered matters does not constitute authorization for additional media engagement.
    And here’s the definition of “media,” which would include civil rights organizations and some attorneys.
    4. For purposes of this Directive, media is any person, organization, or entity (other than Federal, State, local, tribal and territorial governments):
    a. primarily engaged in the collection, production, or dissemination to the public of information in any form, which includes print, broadcast, film and Internet; or
    b. otherwise engaged in the collection, production, or dissemination to the public of information in any form related to topics of national security, which includes print, broadcast, film and Internet.
    Employees found to have violated this policy may lose their security clearance and/or their employment…
    Also noted by Wheeler, the NSA's hired a new chief spokesperson, and it's now going to be ALL PROPAGANDA, ALL THE TIME: "NSA's New "Privacy Officer" Releases Her First Propaganda."

    The Ministry of Truth has spoken!

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:34:24 PM PDT

  •  This just came out too: (12+ / 0-)
    Eyes Over Compton: How Police Spied on a Whole City

    This is the future if nothing is done to stop it.

    In a secret test of mass surveillance technology, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department sent a civilian aircraft* over Compton, California, capturing high-resolution video of everything that happened inside that 10-square-mile municipality.

    Compton residents weren't told about the spying, which happened in 2012. "We literally watched all of Compton during the times that we were flying, so we could zoom in anywhere within the city of Compton and follow cars and see people," Ross McNutt of Persistence Surveillance Systems told the Center for Investigative Reporting, which unearthed and did the first reporting on this important story. The technology he's trying to sell to police departments all over America can stay aloft for up to six hours. Like Google Earth, it enables police to zoom in on certain areas. And like TiVo, it permits them to rewind, so that they can look back and see what happened anywhere they weren't watching in real time.

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 02:49:45 PM PDT

    •  It always starts with black people, (6+ / 0-)

      That should be the most obvious fact in the world, for any democrat. It always impacts us. And we're never immune from the excesses or abuses.

      They're not gonna launch this program in Martha's Vineyard or Beverly Hills.

      •  Bullshit. They will use it in Bev Hills. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, dclawyer06

        They need to make sure that any black people there are not breaking the law.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:23:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's sarcasm in case it isn't obvious. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dclawyer06, duhban

        Of course when the Beverly Hills Housewives find out that there are drones circling their places that can have HD video of them sunbathing in their backyards they may get upset. And when the husbands or wives are exposed having affairs by this footage the shit will definately hit the fan.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:26:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Paging Phillip K Dick (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy, CroneWit
    •  Right to privacy in public? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      duhban

      London has about 500,000 CCTV cameras on their streets and their underground system, with additional technology such as facial recognition and license plate readers. Londoners don't seem to care.

      I've seen both the pros and cons argument on this and have mixed feelings myself. But, there's no arguing that the streets of London are far safer than New York:

      Crime in London
      (Per 1,000 residents except homicide)
      Homicide:2.0
      Robbery:4.5
      Sexual offences:1.2
      Burglary(residential):8.0
      Theft from motor vehicles:16.0

      New York CityCrime rates (2008)
      (Per 100,000 residents)
      Homicide:6.3
      Forcible rape:10.7
      Robbery:265.9
      Aggravated assault:297.6

      Violent crime:580.3
      Burglary:238.1
      Larceny-theft:1,410.2
      Motor vehicle theft:149.1

      Read more: http://www.city-data.com/...

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 04:13:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There is a huge difference between cameras (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, samanthab, CroneWit

        on the street in plain view and on a drone flying for hours over any city and able to film you in your backyard in high def. With one there is no expectation of privacy and with the other there is.

        As a matter of fact when I was in London a few years back there was a big scandal because some of the guys who moniter CCTV were redirecting the cameras into women's apartments.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 04:26:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Would it really bother you? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          duhban

          I think it depends on where we're talking about.

          If I lived in Monowi, Nebraska, population of 2, I'd be more than a little nervous about a drone circling my town.

          If I live in London, population 8 million, it wouldn't bother me so much.

          Everything is a tradeoff. Monowi has no pubs or theaters. London has 7,000 pubs and 60 theatres. They can watch me crawl from pub to pub all they want.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 04:40:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again there is a difference between (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nada Lemming, Kentucky Kid, samanthab

            watching me walk down the street and watching me in the privacy in my own yard or through my window.

            And lets take my own privacy out of the equation. How about someone who runs for President or congress and wins being filmed doing private things in their private backyard and then being blackmailed into doing something? Or a reporter doing blow and hookers in their backyard  and then being blackmailed into dropping an important story?

            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

            by Mike S on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 05:01:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  That was true well before the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fcvaguy, Sandino

        cameras went in.

      •  That's a nice sleight of hand you did. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CroneWit

        You took a city that for decades has been safer and less violent than NYC... and you now suggest (without explicitly claiming) that this fairly new technology is the reason for a trend that predates it.  It's not a relevant comparison.

        But if you wamt to discuss crime rates in London pre and post CCTV I'm willing to listen.  That would be a valid comparison.

        Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

        by bigtimecynic on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 05:35:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sleight of hand? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          freakofsociety

          There's no contention or tension here. Its just a discussion. No need to insult or needlessly enflame.

          My experiences are anecdotal. I know NYC well and I currently spend nearly half my year in London. The cultures are different, the priorities are different, and people's expectations are different. People in London don't seem to be bothered by the cameras. If you feel they should be bothered, then maybe you can cop a British accent, stand on top of a lorry in Piccadily Circus and try to convince people of the evils of street cameras.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 11:53:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The more people buy the war OF terror, domestic (4+ / 0-)

    terrorism, and imperialism, the worse it will get.  We are our own worst enemy.  
    Do not buy what the government is selling.

    "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Mon Apr 21, 2014 at 03:21:01 PM PDT

  •  What amazes me is how some people are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mark Lippman

    so afraid of... whatever... that they are willing to trade ALL of their privacy for the illusion of security. We've become a nation of scared little mice.

    BOO!

    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

    by bigtimecynic on Tue Apr 22, 2014 at 05:43:50 AM PDT

    •  You hit on something fundamental and important (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dharmafarmer, freakofsociety

      that I take very seriously.

      Probably most of the people who justify mass surveillance practices do so out of fear, not reason. A Democratic icon, FDR, was correct and wise. Fear only fear. Because it shuts down reason and intellect. It alters the body's neurochemistry as it ramps up to fight or run.

      This is what fuels pie fights. Hard-wired primitive instinct.

      The first step is to understand, which you do.  You may ridicule me for the next step but I don't mind because I'm not afraid. The next step is for us to be like FDR and help our friends find their courage. Their reason and intellect will quickly recover. People here aren't stupid.

  •  I read this last night, Mark, tipped & rec'd (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mark Lippman

    but either the site or (more likely) my connection was acting glitchy yesterday evening, and I see that they didn't take -- probably none of my tips to comments took either.  Damn Comcast!

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site