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There's always a lot of back and forth about news from the Maidan, or about the news coming out of Ukraine, or Russia concerning Ukraine.

This comes from Forbes.

The website of the “President of Russia’s Council on Civil Society and Human Rights” posted a blog that was quickly taken down as if it were toxic radioactive waste. According to the Council’s report about the March referendum to annex Crimea, the turnout was a maximum 30%. And of these, only half voted for annexation – meaning only 15 percent of Crimean citizens voted for annexation.

The fate of Crimea, therefore, was decided by the 15 percent of Crimeans, who voted in favor of unification with Russia (under the watchful eye of Kalashnikov-toting soldiers).

As we know, the official results as reported by the Kremlin were 83% turnout, with 97% voting for annexation.

Let me repeat that:

Official Kremlin results: 97% for annexation, turnout 83 percent, and percent of Crimeans voting in favor 82%.

President’s Human Rights Council results: 50% for annexation, turnout 30%, percent of Crimeans voting in favor 15%.

Putin’s people pulled this “rather unfortunate” report from the President’s Human Rights Council website, but council member Svetlana Gannushkina talked about this subject on Kanal 24 (as reproduced on Ukrainian television), declaring that the Crimean vote “discredited Russia more than could be dreamed up by a foreign agent.”
On Sunday, there's another "referendum", this time in the so-called "People's Republic of Donetsk". How much you want to bet he's going to do the same thing?  Oh sure, the few international monitors will object, but won't be able to do anything staring down the barrel of a Kalashnikov.

And of course, there are those in the Western Media who will let him get away with it, as he peddles the Big Lie about the illegitimacy of the Ukrainian government, and how those poor Russian speaking Ukrainians are being so repressed.

Vote for me for a Netroots Nation Scholarship

8:01 PM PT: The following link is the screen capture of the report. You'll have to translate the Russian.   http://www.president-sovet.ru/...

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Comment Preferences

  •  Is there a source (18+ / 0-)

    other then Ukrainian tv and Forbes citing Ukrainian TV? Google cache or something?

    There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

    by Drewid on Mon May 05, 2014 at 05:58:21 PM PDT

  •  doesn't surprise me in the least (15+ / 0-)

    but I'm hoping someone can pull something from google cache to make this air tight.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Mon May 05, 2014 at 06:01:44 PM PDT

  •  Legitimacy of the Ukranian government? (13+ / 0-)

    You mean the one that took power by mob rather than waiting for an election?  Backed by outside interference.

    But that's okay.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Mon May 05, 2014 at 06:24:47 PM PDT

    •  It isn't the first time (18+ / 0-)

      That protests bring down a government.   It happens in France from time to time.  So, the Parliament elected a new government as it is empowered to do.  True there was small procedural shortfall in having a 73% unanimous vote rathe than 75%.   The folks who cling to a minor procedural defect to try to discredit a clear substantive vote. One has to wonder why they are so unhappy an authoritarian kleptocrat left office

      •  Because US/Eu/IMF bad is the only (9+ / 0-)

        thing I can think of. It is a complicated situation that should not be approached with binary thinking or an Amercan centric attitude.

        There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

        by Drewid on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:14:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Except there were armed men (6+ / 0-)

        surrounding the parliament at the time.

        But no pressure, hey...

      •  It literally ran the president out of the country (9+ / 0-)

        and that was prior to any vote to impeach. That is far, far from common.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:16:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What nation should tolerate keeping in office as (11+ / 0-)

          head of state a guy that fled his own people into his sponsor's arms, said sponsor being head of the adjacent superpower and one who thirst to run the nation in question as a vassal client state or directly through annexation?

          I still don't get why Americans should give a damn whether Ukraine's parliament followed its own constitution as WE interpret it.  It's THEIR constitution, it's THEIR process of removing a guy from office.  If the process they used doesn't follow OUR interpretation of THEIR constitution, too damn bad for US, I guess.  Even if the process they used doesn't follow THEIR interpretation of THEIR constitution, I still don't know why that would matter to us.  

          A "people's coup" isn't necessarily an evil.  This wasn't a military coup with a general overthrowing the democratically elected government on the basis of "mismanagement of the economy" (the oft-use excuse of generals taking over governments in third world countries).  Instead, the head of state fled his own people (after ordering the murder of dozens of them), and parliament justly voted to remove him from office.  Kiev doesn't give a damn whether the American left is pissed that Ukraine didn't strictly adhere to Ukraine's constitution as the American left interprets it.  Nor should Kiev give said damn.

          •  The evidence is showing that the snipers (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sunspots, ChadmanFL, corvo, protectspice

            We're arranged by the people now in charge in Kiev.

            Further proof being that there is no investigation.

          •  So then you admit this wasn't a legitimate (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sunspots, ChadmanFL, corvo

            transfer of power and that you support it because you didn't like the guy run out of the country? You realize that a mass of right wing militants are who ran the guy out of the country. It wasn't the protesters, it was people with guns who had already killed nearly twenty people from the security forces.

            I still don't get why Americans should give a damn whether Ukraine's parliament followed its own constitution as WE interpret it.  It's THEIR constitution, it's THEIR process of removing a guy from office.
            So now you just don't care if power is legitimately transferred or not if it's another country? Seriously? I don't believe that for a second.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 08:21:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't admit that at all. (0+ / 0-)

              If, instead of

              I still don't get why Americans should give a damn whether Ukraine's parliament followed its own constitution as WE interpret it.
              I'd said,
              I still don't get why Americans should give a damn THAT (as opposed to "whether") Ukraine's parliament DID NOT follow its own constitution as WE interpret it.
              then you might be able jump to your conclusions about what I "admit".  But no, I intentionally used the word "whether" rather than "that".  Maybe I should have used the phrase "whether or not", to make it more clear, even though "whether" and "whether or not" mean the same thing. lol

              And you missed another aspect of my comment, which was that I talked, not of whether Ukraine followed its constitution, but of whether or not "WE" interpret events as such.  (And by "WE", I meant not a monolithic "WE", all making the same interpretation, but rather meant the  collection of us as individuals, each making his/her own interpretation.)  No matter how we interpret things, our interpretation doesn't supersede that of Ukraine's parliament.  It's their constitution, their parliament, their process.

              As for the question of whether power is "legitimately transferred",  would you have opposed the various (failed) coups against Hitler?  No, of course you wouldn't have.  Did you oppose the overthrow of Nicolae Ceaușescu?  I look at transfers of power on a case by case basis.

              •  So then really you just said you don't care (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, ChadmanFL, protectspice

                whether it was legitimate or not. Of course, you sure care whether the election in Crimea was.

                And they explicitlydid not follow their constitution. There is no "as they interpret it" vs "as we intepret it". They arebitrarily decided to roll back the constitution to an older version after there was mass violence directed against the government.

                As for the question of whether power is "legitimately transferred",  would you have opposed the various (failed) coups against Hitler?  No, of course you wouldn't have.  Did you oppose the overthrow of Nicolae Ceaușescu?  I look at transfers of power on a case by case basis.
                I made no claims as to whether the coup was good or not. I said it was illegitimate. You and plenty of others have been claiming again and again that this was a legitimate and non-violent transfer of power. Now you've suddenly moved the goal posts and are just claiming it's a good thing whether or not it was legitimate.

                the number of people who suddenly support a violent overthrow of an elected president when it's someone who backed our enemies is amazing. You don't have enough bad things to say about the violence used in Crimea and yet this violence is fine.

                It's grossly hypocritical.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:36:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  We've done this dance before (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              The Ukraine constitution doesn't talk about what you do when the President flees the country. The parliament was still very much in place short 80-90 MPs who also fled. The vote was overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment, although it fell short by 2% because of the circumstances above.

              The parliament in place today is the parliament that was elected in the last election. The parliament elected a Prime Minister, appointed an interim President, and called for elections on May 25, just a few weeks away.

              Putin doesn't want those elections to happen.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:30:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When the president flles (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL, protectspice

                in the face of mass violence from the right wing.

                And if the president can't serve his term then there is a clear line of succession laid out in the constitution. There was no reason that they had to arbitrarily revert an older constitution. Doing so in the face of a violent right wing is clearly an illegitimate transfer of power.

                Whether Ukraine is better off or not is an entirely different question. But this hypocrisy where everyone here constantly defends the violent right wing overthrow of an elected president is absurd.

                Putin doesn't want those elections to happen.
                Why not? Putin will get what he wants at this point, regardless of who's president, and the election is just for president, not for parliament.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:47:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It wasn't from the right wing! (0+ / 0-)

                  More and more and more pro-Putin propaganda.  It's sickening.

                  •  The violence was totally from the right wing (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice

                    Ukrainian nationalists. They weren't the entirety of the protests, but they were the ones who brought guns and shot security officers. This is well documented from leftists in Ukraine. Not from Russia, but from anti-fascist groups who have been fighting Svoboda and Pravy Sektor for years.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 05:29:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  You're saying that the coup is (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, Sunspots, ChadmanFL, corvo

            all about THEM and not about US... but if this is so, then why are WE so heavily involved in defending it? By "we" of course, I mean the US State Department -- not necessarily the American public.

            Surely you must recognize that the interim government in Kyiv does not represent the will of all Ukrainians. That's the reason it is not legitimate, or at least not fully legitimate. Its illegitimacy does not stem primarily from how the coup was effectuated, but from the simple fact that it does not come even close to being fully representative.

            The coup has been horribly divisive to Ukraine, regardless of what its intentions might have been. To place all the blame for the resulting rebellions, or even most of the blame on Putin, is both absurd and disingenuous.

            •  THere's an election May 25 (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              Coup folks tend not to call for elections. Putin doesn't want it to happen. The outcome will be a very pro-Ukraine legislature, and not because the vote will be rigged, but because a big chunk of the pro-Russian vote (Crimea) has now been annexed by Ukraine.

              Its illegitimacy does not stem primarily from how the coup was effectuated, but from the simple fact that it does not come even close to being fully representative.
              The same parliament that existed before the coup, exists now, less a few dozen reps who fled to Russia and a few dozen more who were from Crimea. So, perhaps you can elaborate on how the current parliament isn't even close to being representative?

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:23:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It's obviously not representative (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL

                in the minds of eastern Ukrainians, whether it is technically (legally) representative or not. Sending tanks and troops to control rebellious, yet largely peaceful areas, is not something that representative governments do.

                •  Why do you support Putin so strongly? (0+ / 0-)
                  •  I do not support Putin strongly, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BigAlinWashSt

                    but I denounce, as strongly as I can, the role that the US government has played, and continues to play, in this entire bloody fiasco. It is also clear to me that Putin's role in it has been nothing like what it has been portrayed to be in the "Western" media, which is so full or distortions and outright disinformation as to be almost laughable. I denounce that too.

                    I don't need to applaud Putin the man, in order to recognize that his actions and intentions have been deliberately, and often wildly mischaracterized to suit the ambitions of a coterie of highly placed global corporatists. The same set of people who, once again, are pulling wool over the eyes of the American public, with the help of a spineless, privately-owned mass media. Who poison our minds by fabricating illusions of enemies that do not exist, all the better to wreak havoc and mayhem for power and profit, all across the world.

              •  People who participate in a coup (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL, native, poco

                almost always call for elections. Whether they hold them and/or respect them is another thing.

                There's also no parliamentary lessons called yet either.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 02:08:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  that president (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lawrence, amyzex, fcvaguy, Timaeus

          have you seen what that "president" left behind?

          The golden loaves and little-dick-selfies?

          And his chief prosecutor?

          You are a big occupy honcho, you don't like the Maidan version of occupy?

          The fuck is wrong with you lefties lately?

          •  Indeed! (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            debedb, amyzex, fcvaguy, Timaeus
            The fuck is wrong with you lefties lately?
            Some seem to like people's movements in the West, but hate them in other countries.

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Tue May 06, 2014 at 04:37:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm pointing out that this was not a peaceful (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            native, ChadmanFL, corvo, poco

            and legitimate transfer of power. I am in no way defending Yakunovych.

            Unfortunately, many people here have decided to gloss over the actions of the violent right wing Ukrainian nationalists who have no problem using mass violence to get their way.

            No, all of euromaidan is not fascist, most aren't, the majority I'd say. But ignoring the right wing violence because it was directed at some politician you don't like is disgusting.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 08:29:03 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're not consistent in your arguments (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, debedb

              What was  your position during Occupy with respect to Black Bloc?

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:31:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It was not that Black Bloc could somehow (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL, protectspice, poco

                force a legitimate transfer of power in the US through the use of violence.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:49:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  look (0+ / 0-)

                  I think we all know what's going on....

                  You don't like US establishment. Therefore the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Some shit along these lines.

                  Otherwise I have no fucking concept of how someone who aligns with Occupy can defend the "golden bread loaf" thug who escaped, because he couldn't handle the shit, not because he was personally threatened.

                  I could give him credit that he chose to escape rather than order bloody repressions. That's true. But he could have dealt.. He just was always one step too late, at least. Well, then, that's a politician's fate, so he didn't fit the job and effectively removed himself.

                  He turned out to be a thief, but not a murderer. It's not bad, considering...

                  But - seriously - to go where you go - I'm sorry...

                  •  You clearly have no clue what my point is (0+ / 0-)

                    I have not defended Yakunovych now or ever, I merely reject the nonsense line that the people who overthrew him are the "good guys" or even necessarily better than he is. I have never support Putin and I have never supported Yanukovych and I have openly opposed their actions.

                    This is not about the US except in so far as the people who now support violent revolution have claimed to be against it when it is directed at people they support. And they claim to be against it in general, not just because they support the people who it is directed at. I have been told here that I deserve what I got for walking in the fucking street at a protest in New York. That people I know deserve to be arrested for walking in the street and that when they resist physically the police rightfully use violence against them.

                    It's bullshit hypocrisy and pointing out that hypocrisy is not supporting Putin or Yanukovych, period.

                    I don't give Yanukovych credit for shit. I also don't labor under the illusion that fascists didn't organize mass violence to oust him. Just because the majority of automaidan was not fascist and not violent doesn't mean that there was no fascist violence. You and others here chose to ignore that fact because you don't like Putin or Yanukovych. I understand that the enemy of my enemy is often not my friend.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Wed May 07, 2014 at 09:59:39 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ok I guess I didn't (0+ / 0-)

                      But I still don't quite see where the violent revolution is. He could have ignored the original Maidan demonstrations, or dealt with them better. He chose to escalate in a bad way, not once, but at least twice. He then fled, not willing or able to do anything about the shitstorm that he himself created, in my opinion.

                      What fascists organized what mass violence?

                      •  Privy Sektor (0+ / 0-)

                        most likely along with factions in Svoboda killed nearly twenty security personnel two days before the security forces opened fire with live rounds on protesters that included those same fascists who came to the protests armed. It's essentially as if Bundy and his friends had shown up to "defend" occupy and killed a bunch of cops and then surrounded the white house and after that Obama had fled the country. With the obvious difference that Obama is not like Yanukovych.

                        When the president flees in the face of violent right wing thugs then it's a coup. Maybe some people don't want to call it that, and maybe the fascists in Ukraine won't gain in power from this, but ignoring these facts doesn't help.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Thu May 08, 2014 at 07:56:26 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Er (0+ / 0-)
                          most likely along with factions in Svoboda killed nearly twenty security personnel two days before the security forces opened fire with live rounds on protesters
                          From this moment, would you please refer to some sources? What dates are you referring to?
            •  The President left (0+ / 0-)

              He left his people. What the hell was the country supposed to do?

              Who threatened that little-dicked tasteless ex-con? Nobody.

          •  EuroMaidan didn't run him out using violence (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo

            It was right sector and other armed rightists. EuroMaidan didn't kill more than a score of security forces, that was right sector and other armed rightists.

            I'm well enough versed in these sort of situations to know that not everyone who is the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Most people here are clearly not.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 08:31:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  um, no (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sunbro, amyzex, fcvaguy, Timaeus

          an agreement had been negotiated which Yanukovitch backed out of, mostly an agreement to rescind the laws banning public protest.  

          Gotta love how this community is all aghast at how police used mace here, but are totally ok with shooting protestors and making protest a crime in Ukraine.

          Double standard much?

          •  I didn't say I was fine with anything (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            native, Sunspots, ChadmanFL, corvo

            I said specifically that this was not a peaceful transfer of power. The president was run out of the country using violence. Violence is totally fine here when it's used against people we don't like. It's grossly hypocritical and pathetic.

            This was not a legitimate transfer of power in any real sense of the word. It was a violent transfer of power. Whether that's a good thing is an entirely different question.

            You claimed that it was just "a minor procedural defect" when in fact it was much more than that.

            I read in this place every day how evil violence is and how we should never support violence, not from you to be fair, and then when it's used against someone we don't like it's suddenly a legitimate way to change a government.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 08:26:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  what is Yanukovich's wealth? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          and what was the source of it?

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:18:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So now you support running presidents out of the (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice, corvo, ChadmanFL

            country through violence if you don't like where their money came from?

            The hypocrisy here is off the charts.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:24:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't agree with your meme that he was run out (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, debedb

              He fled, and all the press reports support that fact. He could have stayed and stuck to his agreement to rescind the anti-protest dictates he point in place. Rather, he reneged on those agreements and tucked tail.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:34:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  We're not going to agree AoT (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, debedb

              he fled with his buds and they left with billions. That was the peoples' money, not their's. he should have stayed and stuck with his agreement rather then renege. He didn't.

              I'll stick with supporting the Ukrainian people. They deserve a future like any other country.

              Hypocrisy is seeing dyed-in-the-wool leftists hold their noses and defend Yanukovich and Putin.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 02:11:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  He fled in the face of mass violence (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice, poco

                You can spin it as much as you want, but that's a basic fact that is well documented. You ignore that fact because it exposed the gross hypocrisy of this place when ti comes to violence.

                Hypocrisy is seeing dyed-in-the-wool leftists hold their noses and defend Yanukovich and Putin.
                Since I haven't defended either I'm not sure why you'd bring this up. Unless you're trying to smear me as some sort of pro-Putin stooge. Of course, you can't provide a shred of evidence for that, all you have is that I've said this wasn't a legitimate transfer of power.

                But the fact of the matter is that "the people" of Ukraine have had exactly zero say in any of this so far. Except of course the violence ones that ran the president out of the country. The one's you really, really want to avoid talking about. Because you seem to be under the impression that only pro-Russian groups can be the bad guy. I nkow enough to know that's naive.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 02:21:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's just amazing that you're fighting so hard (0+ / 0-)

                  for Vladimir Putin.

                  You're way beyong being wrong.

                  •  I'm not fighting for Putin (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice

                    and you should really stop making that claim.

                    If Bush had been run out of the country like this I can't tell you how happy I would have been, but that wouldn't have made it legitimate.

                    Every person who I'm arguing about with this regularly talks about how illegitimate violent protest is until it overthrows someone they don't like, then it's perfectly fine. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. I can't even count the umber of times I've been attacked for advocating for exactly these sorts of protests to dislodge the oligarchs in the US, and I get attacked for it, but when it's fascists dislodging Putin's man in Ukraine then we can just gloss over the violence. When it's my friends getting their heads smashed for standing in the street for too long in NYC then its perfectly fucking fine.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Tue May 06, 2014 at 05:27:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  At this point (0+ / 0-)

                    the phrase "useful idiots" keeps coming to mind even as I keep chasing it away....

            •  In a case like this, of course! (0+ / 0-)

              Just as in the Marcos situation in the Philippines.  And many other cases.

      •  Protests? (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        edg, Sandino, Karl Rover, ChadmanFL, corvo

        It was as if the tea party surrounded the white house with weapons demanding that Obama leave.  

        "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

        by Paleo on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:22:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did Obama accept a few billion . . . (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OHdog, Lawrence, sunbro, DeeDee001, amyzex

          from a power that has a very recent history of hostility towards the U.S. and did security services under his control then start killing civilian protestors within 24 hours of receiving payment?

          In the context of the U.S. economy it would be close to a thousand dead and the payment would have been close to a few hundred billion.

          Did Obama use state power to imprison his main political rivals, and attempt to silence media critics?

          Does he have a palace that he has "purchased" while on a civil servants salary?  Does he have a kid who runs a bank that saw its holdings increase from a few hundred million to the equivalent of several hundred billion in the span of a few years during his time in office?

          If not, then the analogy doesn't really apply to the Ukrainian situation.

          •  What does Russia's hostility towards the U.S. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sunspots, ChadmanFL, corvo

            have to do with overthrowing an elected leader?  Or are you suggesting this was an Iran, Chile, Guatemala, etc. situation.  With Vicki Nusland-Kagan plotting to install "Yats," and marching with the U.S. ambassador against Yanukovich, very well could have been the case.

            "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

            by Paleo on Tue May 06, 2014 at 10:08:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  They've done this (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sunbro, amyzex

          the difference would be if Obama ordered the national guard to open fire and the a majority of Democrats voted to remove Obama.

        •  Seriously? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          /facepalm

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:35:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Your small procedural shortfall means (5+ / 0-)

        The government is not legitimate.

        Either they do it right or it is a coup.

      •  Not only was the percentage insufficient but the (6+ / 0-)

        entire impeachment process was not followed.

        So, the Parliament elected a new government as it is empowered to do.
        It was not empowered to do so as the constitutional requirements had not been met.
        CONSTITUTION OF UKRAINE
        Article 108

        The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly-elected President of Ukraine.

        The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:

        1) resignation;
        2) inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
        3) removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
        4) death.

        Article 109

        The resignation of the President of Ukraine enters into force from the moment he or she personally announces the statement of resignation at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

        Article 110

        The inability of the President of Ukraine to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health shall be determined at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine and confirmed by a decision adopted by the majority of its constitutional composition on the basis of a petition of the Supreme Court of Ukraine – on the appeal of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, and a medical opinion.

        Article 111

        The President of Ukraine may be removed from office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the procedure of impeachment, in the event that he or she commits state treason or other crime.

        The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

        To conduct the investigation, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine establishes a special temporary investigatory commission whose composition includes a special Prosecutor and special investigators.

        The conclusions and proposals of the temporary investigatory commission are considered at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

        For cause, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, by no less than two-thirds of its constitutional composition, adopts a decision on the accusation of the President of Ukraine.

        The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition, after the review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and the receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and the receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state treason or other crime.

    •  Well, you see, Mr.Paleo (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, sunbro, amyzex, fcvaguy

      The thing is...

      That elected president fled. Leaving behind his nude portraits and golden bread loaves.

    •  The one where the President of the country (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      fled to Moscow with billions in his pockets.

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:15:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Here's more information, but I've no idea how (21+ / 0-)

    reliable Kharkiv Human Rights Group is (and I can't read the original report in Russian):

    The report finds that while the overwhelming majority of residents of Sevastopol voted for joining Russian (turnout of 50-80%), the turnout for all of Crimea was from 30-50% and only 50-60% of those voted for joining Russia.  

    The authors also noted that Crimean residents voted less for joining Russia, than for what they called an end to corrupt lawlessness and thieving rule of people brought in from Donetsk (where Viktor Yanukovych and most of his people were from).  It was only in Sevastopol, they say, that people genuinely voted for joining Russia.  They add that the fear of “illegal armed formations” was higher in Sevastopol than in other regions of Crimea.

    The comment is of interest given that the so-called referendum was held with the Crimea swarming with Russian soldiers in uniform without insignia and so-called “Crimean self-defence” vigilantes.  Presumably what was referred to were the armed formations which Russian television channels claim have been let loose by EuroMaidan and the new authorities in Kyiv.  It is perhaps significant that the turnout was not higher given that the puppet government installed at gunpoint on Feb 27 made a point of closing Ukrainian media and installing precisely those channels which relentlessly push the idea that Kyiv is “fascist” and a threat to all Russian-speakers and ethnic Russians.

    The official figures claim that the turnout for the Crimea was 83.1% with 96.77% in favour of the Crimea becoming a part of Russia.

    "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

    by Brecht on Mon May 05, 2014 at 06:27:08 PM PDT

    •  It appears to be accurate (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brecht, NotGeorgeWill, ER Doc, amyzex, fcvaguy
      Референдум

      По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:

      - подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;

      - жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.

      Rough Google Translation
      referendum

      According to almost all survey participants and citizens :

      - The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;

      - Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .

      "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

      by Texas Lefty on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:21:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is far more believeable than the official (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      figures, which are quite obviously phony. Though any claims to accuracy in that referendum remain doubtful, and in any case irrelevant to what happened, and why.

      Putin recognized a serious threat to Russia's naval base, and seized Crimea out of strategic necessity -- realizing that Russia would have majority support in the region. Nowhere near the 97% support claimed, but enough support to make the occupation fairly bloodless. His only serious problem there is the Tatars. They will remain a big problem for him, as they maintain covert links with Pravyi Sektor, and elsewhere.

    •  The report is credible (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brecht

      in that it is very consistent with some data Meteor Blades posted in one of his diaries:

      Polls in 2011 showed 33 percent of Crimeans of all ethnic backgrounds in support of joining the federation, and another showed that figure had dropped to 23 percent in 2013.

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:39:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Let's say the report is credible (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, ChadmanFL

        (ignoring that it's not official numbers, but scarce polling data and interview results)

        Why did Forbes need to lie and embellish the numbers? Oh yeah, because the writer is a rightwing thinktanker on board for MOAR WOAR.

        •  Make up your mind (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          when you do, we can chat. You and BigAl have already declared its propaganda without even posting a cogent argument beyond a simple declaration. And then HRing the tip jar in a bullying move because you don't like what the diary says.

          Check out Brechts and Texas Lefty's posts above. The source has been independently corroborated beyond Forbes and the author of the Forbes article.

          Ironically, its you and BigAl pushing false propaganda at this point.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:54:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  You might want to check that source, Gregory (8+ / 2-)

    is a far right Republican Hoover Institute little fellow who has just a little bit of bias toward Putin.  He's one of those that calls Obama a socialist.  
    Other than that there's a claim that that website had something on it, but from where it's being reported, hardly reliable with something more.  Was there a screen shot or something to verify this.  It's not that the neocon republicans would resort to propaganda, but just to be sure.

    "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Mon May 05, 2014 at 06:53:29 PM PDT

    •  If he's biased TOWARDS Putin, this makes it (7+ / 0-)

      more reliable, no? He'd be in Putin's corner, wouldn't he?

      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:00:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

        •  Second HR of the day (0+ / 0-)

          Like BigAlinWashSt, you HR'd the tip jar.  News you don't like should just disappear?  Fuck you and the bear you rode in on.

          The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

          by amyzex on Tue May 06, 2014 at 09:16:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's propaganda (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ChadmanFL, corvo

            based on falsifications of unnofficial estimates. The source doesn't mirror the spin. Propaganda, by definition.

            The only bogus HR is the one you just gave me for that comment.

            •  It very well may be propaganda (0+ / 0-)

              Diarist cited the info, linked to the source. Commenters hove corroborated the article independently, with translations.

              We are free to debate its accuracy and veracity at this point. HRing the tip jar is tantamount to bullying people to not post diaries you don't agree with.

              If you've got an argument with facts to back it up demonstrating this diary is propaganda, you should post it. Simply declaring it such is bullshit.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:44:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Been there, done that (0+ / 0-)
                If you've got an argument with facts to back it up demonstrating this diary is propaganda, you should post it. Simply declaring it such is bullshit.
                Maybe you should read the comments section before attacking me.

                The source is meaningless when it doesn't reflect in the article. And even if it did, the source's data wasn't concrete data meant to represent a tally of any sort, it was based on interviews and the like. The 'source' was the results of a narrow fact finding mission, nothing like an official tally, of anything really.

                BUT OF COURSE you'd rather spend your time shouting me down than actually getting a fucking clue about what this entire thing is about. So carry on I guess.

          •  They still can't back up a story by a right wing (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice, ChadmanFL, corvo

            Hoover Institute Obama Hater.  Do you support what a right wing Hoover Institute Obama Hater says without any evidence?  

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue May 06, 2014 at 11:43:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  No. (0+ / 0-)

        Bias toward and bias against are gradually becoming synonyms, with a negative connotation for each. In fact, the word bias is being redefined toward only its negative meaning.

        Language evolves.

        Feed the hungry? Clothe the naked? House the homeless? American Jesus says "Nuh-uh."

        by edg on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:44:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Semantics. Then make it clear. Towards and (5+ / 0-)

          against are still valid.

          "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

          by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 08:50:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can't believe you needed that clarified. (5+ / 3-)

            The fucking neocons want a war with Putin, that dude Gregory is a mouthpiece for the neocons and far right wingers that want a war with Russia.  Now you're a mouthpiece too.

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:06:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What. The. Fuck. NOWHERE am I advocating (5+ / 0-)

              ANYTHING like war.

              And seriously. "Mouthpiece"?

              You'd better back that up.

              I just don't want to see Russia invading. I don't want to see Russian Special Forces instigating these riots and actions.

              Which you seem perfectly happy to let happen as long as it fits your narrative that every single western Ukrainian is some ultra right wing nutjob.

              HR for the "mouthpiece" bit.

              My diary, and you've crossed a line.

              "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

              by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:17:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Check your damn sources before you write a (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino, ChadmanFL, corvo, protectspice

                damn diary man.  That's the deal.  Shit.  You've crossed the line.

                "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                by BigAlinWashSt on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:21:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Did you read the actual report? You know, the one (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  NotGeorgeWill, Timaeus

                  IN RUSSIAN?

                  "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                  by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:24:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  No one from the Hoover Institute writes at (4+ / 0-)

                  president-soviet.ru

                  BECAUSE THAT'S THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT

                  "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                  by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:25:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, the Russian government... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sandino, NotGeorgeWill

                    Is kremlin.ru, and Putin is found at Putin.kremlin.ru.

                    Just for what that's worth.

                    No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

                    by newinfluence on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:34:43 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Putin's preferred journalists were awarded (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Timaeus

                      medals recently for their "objective" coverage of the events leading to the seizure of Crimea from Ukraine in the same way Roger Ailes of Fox News measures "objective" and in the same way Bill O'Reilly's program was the "No Spin Zone".

                      -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                      by sunbro on Tue May 06, 2014 at 07:06:08 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Did you mean to post that to me? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sunbro

                        No offense, but I'm not sure what that has to do with my providing the correct Russian government address. If I'm missing it, perhaps you can clarify.

                        No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

                        by newinfluence on Tue May 06, 2014 at 10:02:21 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Your address is correct... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          sunbro

                          but the site linked above is the official website of the Council for Civil Society and Human Rights.  They are an advisory group within the Russian Government and Putin sometimes meets with them in person.  They made a list of recommendations to help protect the rights of Tartars and other Ukrainians who are being marginalized in the post annexation process.  The publication seems to be reasonable and well-intended, but who knows if they will actually be implemented.

                          I agree that the comment about biased journalists seems out of place as a response to your post.

                          •  Actually, what I responded to is close to that... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...but not it. There's an extra "I", which made that site a "site not found". I tried to link to it unsuccessfully, and posted in response.

                            No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

                            by newinfluence on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:24:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  No problem. You are correct. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          newinfluence

                          I just have not seen much on dKos regarding Putin's propaganda campaign and could not find a good place to interject with this article.

                          -4.75, -5.33 Cheney 10/05/04: "I have not suggested there is a connection between Iraq and 9/11."

                          by sunbro on Tue May 06, 2014 at 11:17:59 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No worries :-) (0+ / 0-)

                            I just wanted to make sure that if you were looking for a reply or were in a conversation with someone that you posted in the right place.

                            And for whatever it's worth, there's been a lot of discussion about Putin's propaganda around here. During the move into Crimea, I made several comments about it myself, as did a number of other commenters and diarists. There was a fair bit of disagreement about where the propaganda line was, especially as it related to the makeup of the Ukrainian governmental coalition.  

                            No, you can't fix stupid. You OUTNUMBER stupid. -Wildthumb, 1/10/2013

                            by newinfluence on Tue May 06, 2014 at 09:00:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Check YOUR sources. (3+ / 0-)

                  "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                  by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:26:04 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Let me show you: (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  NotGeorgeWill, Timaeus
                  Референдум

                  По мнению практически всех опрошенных специалистов и граждан:

                  - подавляющее большинство жителей Севастополя проголосовали на референдуме за присоединение к России (явка 50-80 %), в Крыму по разным данным за присоединение к России проголосовали 50-60 % избирателей при общей явке в 30-50 %;

                  - жители Крыма голосовали не столько за присоединение к России, сколько за прекращение, по их словам, «коррупционного беспредела и воровского засилья донецких ставленников». Жители же Севастополя голосовали именно за присоединение к России. Опасения перед незаконными вооруженными формированиями в Севастополе были больше, чем в других районах Крыма.

                  Translation:
                  referendum

                  According to almost all survey participants and citizens :

                  - The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;

                  - Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .

                  Whats-his-name from Forbes is JUST REPORTING THE ARTICLE.

                  "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                  by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:29:43 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How does a page referencing 30-50% (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sandino, Karl Rover, ChadmanFL, corvo

                    turnout(and what's up with that range? certainly not an official tally of ANY sort) lead to an article stating a MAX(a qualifier conveniently left out in this diary) turnout of 30%?

                    •  So you believe Putin's numbers of 83% turnout and (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Timaeus

                      97% voting in favor?

                      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

                      by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:41:10 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't 'believe' anything of the sort (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sandino, fran1, corvo

                        but I know BS when I see it being telegraphed from a partisan site in the middle of a civil war to sympathetic western MSM.

                      •  I think if the Crimeans, who also live in the 21st (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        protectspice, native, corvo

                        century, felt that the voting was rigged, illegitimate, and illegal, then we would have hear that directly from them.  
                        There are some who don't like it and that's who you've linked to.  
                        It seems clear that the majority of Crimeans did not want to align themselves with the illegal fascist government in Kiev and chose to do so with Russia.  
                        So what's the point of everybody on here getting all up and up about that referendum?

                        "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                        by BigAlinWashSt on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:55:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  They'd rather think about (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          BigAlinWashSt, native, corvo

                          the boogeyman in their minds rather than the boogeymen in the streets of Ukraine. It's a coping mechanism. I mean the shit gets to be so horrific that people naturally withdraw from reality and accept the official lie rather than examine the facts(Syria, Libya, Honduras, etc). The facts are enough to keep one up at night and not in the bloggy-typing sense. I can't blame the average person for reacting this way tbh.

                •  Is this source good enough for you? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BMScott, amyzex

                  From the President's Council of the Russian Federation for Civil Society and Human Rights

                  Translated from google

                  According to almost all survey participants and citizens :

                  - The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia ( 50-80 % turnout ) , in Crimea on different data for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50 % ;

                  - Inhabitants of Crimea voted not so much for joining Russia , as for the termination, in their words, " corruption and lawlessness thieves dominance Donetsk henchmen ." Inhabitants of Sevastopol to vote for annexation to Russia . Fears illegal armed groups in Sevastopol were higher than in other regions of the Crimea .

                  "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

                  by Texas Lefty on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:35:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Used to be a rule about not HR-ing ... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kbman, Sandino, Karl Rover, Timaeus

                someone you're personally having a fight with. Has that rule been revoked?

                Feed the hungry? Clothe the naked? House the homeless? American Jesus says "Nuh-uh."

                by edg on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:42:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I understand, it's cool. I wish we could talk in (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  native, corvo

                  person.  You just can't get the person's full intent, can't do the back and forth, etc., that you can in person.  And with something this contentious it makes it very difficult.  No problem.

                  "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                  by BigAlinWashSt on Mon May 05, 2014 at 10:21:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Let other do the HR-ing since it's your diary (0+ / 0-)

                HR-ing of someone criticizing your diary is uncool. If it's a bad comment, the community will get it for you.

                Thanks, BL

                Il est dangereux d’avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort. - Voltaire
                Don't trust anyone over 84414 - BentLiberal

                by BentLiberal on Mon May 05, 2014 at 10:47:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  just nasty (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              with the name calling against diarist. You need to apologize. Its your claims that are baseless. See brecht's independent source above, totally independent of Forbes and the Forbes author.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:56:35 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I am HR'ing you on principle (1+ / 2-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus
      Hidden by:
      protectspice, ChadmanFL

      I had decided to HR any comment by you in this diary once you HR'd the tip jar.  News you don't like should just disappear?  Fuck you and the bear you rode in on.

      The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

      by amyzex on Tue May 06, 2014 at 09:14:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  About 4 comments (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      from you in this diary calling it right wing Hoover institute anti-Obama stuff.

      Brecht found the original source from the Russian website, along with a translation provided by someone else in response to Brecht:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      The Forbes article appears to be accurate.

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:48:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You need to catch up (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ChadmanFL

        The source is no source when it's content is CHANGED in the final article.

        Forbes changed the entire conclusion, AND misrepresented the context.

        •  What diarist posted was entirely accurate (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          he cited his source properly. Brecht independently confirmed the numbers from the Human Rights website. The numbers are the same as what was reported by the Forbes author.

          Now, you move the goalposts saying "the conclusion" is changed and the "context" misrepresented.

          Bull. You decided to attack diarist, even HRing him, because you didn't like what he was saying.

          Instead of HR's, why don't post a cogent argument demonstrating your point. You've not come close yet.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Tue May 06, 2014 at 02:00:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  heh, so you STILL havent read it! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BigAlinWashSt
            The numbers are the same as what was reported by the Forbes author.
            I'm done playing games with you guys.
          •  Check farther man. And why isn't this being (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice

            reported more widely?
            I HR'd the diary, and I rarely give HR's, just to protest the use of a right wing source that is obviously lying in his article.  A right wing source that has an obvious agenda that I don't think democrats should be on the same page as.  And I didn't do it until I had made my points about it.  
            So whatever.  I'm going to smoke a joint now and work in my garden.  It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue May 06, 2014 at 02:15:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Someone in the comments section at Forbes (13+ / 0-)

    was saying that the original 'information' regarded Crimea's Tatar population - roughly meaning 30% turnout and 15% support. Which makes perfect sense.

    Believe the crude propaganda if you want. I'll wait for the actual SOURCE in the meantime.

  •  I am surprised (4+ / 0-)

    That is consistent with the situation (an invasion) and previous polling (50% is pretty high) although note that unity with Ukraine wasn't even an option on the ballot

    I wonder if this gets verified or debunked. But there is a strong temptation to say "I told you so".  The math just didn't make any sense

  •  Sorry, I'll remove my hr when you post a source (6+ / 1-)
  •  Wut? Wut? (0+ / 0-)

    If everyone is out to fool everyone, doesn't that make us all fools?  

    There is a logical, not merely ethical, reason why it is wrong to lie.

  •  Putin learned Stalin's lesson (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    The more apparently accurate quote from the Soviet Union's worst dictator translates to

    I consider it completely unimportant who in the party will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this—who will count the votes, and how.
    The official count seemed like an "in your face" lie, and the fact that the American stenography business (sometimes pretending to be the press) bought it hook, line and sinker proves how easy they are to fool.  To paraphrase another bad national leader,
    Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, I'm ready to give the TV news.
  •  Quick question to those (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    skeptical of the 50 percent number.

    Considering the fact that it seems that elections like this that have 90+ percent of the people voting in one way almost always end up being cases of electoral fraud (in fact, we see "elections" like this in dictatorships all the time), how is that number somehow more believable than just about half of Crimeans who voted voting for it?

  •  The translation of that article says ... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sunspots, native, ChadmanFL, corvo

    that the vast majority of Sevastopol, where there was up to 80% turnout, voted for joining Russia. For the rest of Crimea, as many as 60% voted to join Russia but turnout was less, up to 50%.

    So the pro-Russian vote won. That's what Putin accurately claimed.

    Feed the hungry? Clothe the naked? House the homeless? American Jesus says "Nuh-uh."

    by edg on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:40:59 PM PDT

    •  But there was also not a choice to remain with (0+ / 0-)

      Ukraine.

      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:43:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Critical point - pro-Russian vote won (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      protectspice, native, ChadmanFL, corvo

      whether it was 97% or 50%+ .  However nasty Putin may be.

      Majority vote is what counts, not the size of the majority.  

      And another thing that counts is that the leaders of one coup (in Kiev) are sending military forces against other Ukrainians who object to their coup, with Kiev reportedly egged on to use armed force by our very own CIA director.  

      This is how we got a hostile Iran, by overthrowing an elected government to put the Shah in power.  For a while.  This is what we did all over South America, supporting oppressive and violent dictators to profit big business & maybe why we're not so popular there these days.

  •  Let's not get upset about the source. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, Lawrence

    It's clear those elections were not legit, announced held and votes compiled within a 1 week approx period.  

    It was an embarrassing joke, much like most of Russia's handling of the Ukraine situation.  

    "You cannot win improv." Stephen Colbert (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 at 16:24).

    by Publius2008 on Mon May 05, 2014 at 09:42:00 PM PDT

  •  I didn't see lines of voters in Crimea on US TV (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, Lawrence, Texas Lefty

    I saw a plexiglass box with some clearly marked ballots being dropped in. And I saw a troop carrier with men with assault rifles wear balaclavas and camo outside.
    I also saw lots of shots of  people driving around in small cars flying Russian flags and a few unhappy Tatars.

    To be honest the election was a really weird looking and really fishy.

    I did watch RT doing Crimea but they didn't have much actual footage of their election, mainly their anchors blabbing with their usual 'experts' mainly about 'Nazis in Kiev'.
    RT's coverage was straight out of the FOX style of journalism.

     

  •  Oops (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native

    So, can we stop the pretense and back Ukraine 100%

    Move a couple armored divisions in for "maneuvers" with the Ukraine, and unleash special forces patrols.

    Move to implement missile defense systems in the Estonia, Poland, Romania, Turkey, and Kazakhstan.... just to piss him off.

    •  McCain and Lindsey Graham and nobody else (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Jester

      wants that military involvement.
      Yes, the East Europeans are frightened with reason.
      The Ukrainians are pretty much on their own militarily.

      Other than that there is world opinion and economic sanctions to punish the aggressor, a clearly power mad dictator V.V. Putin, who is ginning up the awful mess.

      We don't have a satisfactory way of dealing with dictators,
      like Kim Il Un.

  •  That's the thing about being an asshole like Putin (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    duhban, ER Doc

    Pissing off the little people has consequences.  

  •  when are the pro-russian dkosers going to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence

    get together for a march on washington?

    i want to know cause i'll be there with my ukrainian flag

    •  Hell, I'm pro-Russian (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      I just happen to listen to the Russian opposition, which has been completely ignored by people trying to construct a certain kind of anti-Western narrative around recent events.

      And here I thought I was being a good liberal by taking progressive activists in Russia at their word regarding Putin's iron fist. Turns out his opponents are monsters and he's just misunderstood.

  •  The people who hr'd the tip jar in this diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Texas Lefty, aimeehs

    should immediately have their ratings privileges pulled.  And those who have already had that happen before should be banned, imo.

    Talk about a clear, egregious case of ratings abuse....

    Tipping and reccing the diary.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Tue May 06, 2014 at 04:46:53 AM PDT

  •  I smell bullshit. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, ChadmanFL, corvo

    Actually, I smell bullshit every time a neocon's lips flap.

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Tue May 06, 2014 at 06:25:47 AM PDT

  •  Heh, look at them unskew that poll (0+ / 0-)

    The Putin progressives, who have championed the Russian aggression here at DK, look foolish as they desperately flail their arms in a mad attempt to simply fly away from the truth about Ukraine.

    Has anyone bought these absurd tip jar HRs to management yet?

    This revolution is not scheduled!

    by harrylimelives on Tue May 06, 2014 at 08:37:59 AM PDT

  •  This is very useful information (0+ / 0-)

    and the people who HR'd your tip jar are sons of bitches.  Thank you for this diary.

    The Stars and Bars and the red swastika banner are both offerings to the same barbaric god.

    by amyzex on Tue May 06, 2014 at 09:06:49 AM PDT

  •  I'm late to the pie fight... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, corvo, zenbassoon

    and I don't know if anyone is still reading this, but here's an attempt to find some facts in all the rhetoric.

    1)  Forbes seems to be citing a legitimate report by an official Russian Human Rights Council that acts in an advisory capacity to Putin. This is not from a right-wing propaganda group as some here have claimed.

    2)  The referendum numbers are not official results but are derived from the Council's on site visits to Crimea and surveys they conducted.  Their research indicates that in Sevastopol there was a fairly decisive vote in favor of joining Russia, while in Crimea turnout was low and only a slim majority voted in favor of the referendum.  Their surveys indicated that Crimeans weren't so much in favor of annexation by Russia as they were seeking protection from lawlessness and corruption.

    3)  The Council expressed concerns that Tartars and other Ukrainians who do not wish to adopt Russian citizenship are being marginalized in the post annexation process.

    4)  They proposed a list of reasonable accommodations to help protect the rights of these Ukrainians.

    So yes, this exposes that the referendum was not as decisive as the official Russian position claims.  It also shows that there are voices of reason within the Russian government who are concerned about protecting human rights in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.  Whether these voices have any real influence within the Kremlin remains to be seen.  It's highly probable that the loyalties of the population throughout eastern Ukraine are highly divided as well.  It's unfortunate that violence and force is being used by both sides of this dispute, rather than dialogue and negotiations.  

    The resulting discussion here also illustrates how we at dKos will eagerly grasp onto anything we can to support our personal positions.  At least we only toss rhetoric and HRs, not bullets and Molotov cocktails.

  •  Pretty good takedown of this entire false debacle (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigAlinWashSt, native, ChadmanFL, corvo

    http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/...

    The blog post is based on the work and proposals of Svetlana Gannushkina, Evgeny Bobrovy and Olga Tseytlina who visited Crimea on a study visit in April.

    Svetlana Gannushkina is fiercely against the annexation of Crimea, chiefly on legal grounds, but the main point is that Professor Gregory, in his Forbes article, has completely misconstrued the nature of the blog post and falsely extrapolated from the (unscientific and imprecise) figures given within it.

    According to the blog post (based on “survey participants and citizens”) The vast majority of inhabitants of Sevastopol voted in a referendum to join Russia (50-80% turnout), Crimea according to various sources for joining Russia voted 50-60% voter turnout with a total of 30-50% ;

    So, this is no “accidental post” of the “real Crimean election results” but an estimation by the members of this working group based on “various sources.”

    Now, even if we accept that the authors of the blog are correct in the wide range of percentages they give (a big “if”), we can see, thanks to the original blog not having been pulled down, that Professor Gregory has totally distorted the figures.

    To try to make any genuine calculation as to the percentage who voted for reunion, based on what is in the blog, is a slightly pointless task but we would have to make some assumptions. If we assume “vast majority” of Sevastopol voters means a minimum of 80% and a maximum of 99% and the electorate proportions of Sevastopol to Crimea are 15:85, then the blog figures would translate into a minimum of 18.65% and a maximum of 36.96% of the electorate voting for reunion. More importantly, in terms of actual voters (the way elections usually work), the figures would be a minimum of 54.39%; and a maximum of 65.41%.

    Professor Gregory has, dishonestly, arrived at his 15% figure by taking the minimum figure for Crimea for both turnout and for voters for union, calling them the maximum, and then ignoring Sevastopol. He has also pretended the report is based on the “real results,” when it seems to be little more than the imprecise estimates of a small working group who were apparently against the idea of the referendum in the first place.

    •  Tried to tell people about Gregory, but they (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      native, ChadmanFL, corvo

      wouldn't listen.

      "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

      by BigAlinWashSt on Tue May 06, 2014 at 11:44:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Svetlana Gannushkina (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      native

      has worked for human rights in Russia since the 1980s, especially helping people who were displaced during and after the breakup of the Soviet Union.  She is well known for supporting the rights of Chechens over the years.  Amnesty International writes that "Svetlana Gannushkina has acted many times on behalf of people accused of terrorism, criticizing the denial of basic human rights to those suspected of such crimes and protesting against the fabrication of criminal cases against young Chechens or Uzbekistani citizens, facing deportation to Uzbekistan."  She is currently a member of the Council for Civil Society and Human Rights under President Putin.

      The author of the Forbes article no doubt put his spin on it, just like most people in these comments are doing. The original work is actually a well-reasoned document expressing concern for those marginalized post annexation, and making practical recommendations to rectify the situation.

      •  The point, however (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        native, ChadmanFL, corvo

        has nothing to do with this person's character or resume, nor the character or resumes of her colleagues. The issue is whether or not official numbers were actually being relayed, which they weren't! It's all very simple and there's no 'spin' required in the debunking.  What Forbes printed has no basis in fact even if it were honestly written.

        •  So you maintain that... (0+ / 0-)

          the Council for Civil Society and Human Rights didn't do due diligence in it's investigation?  They are official advisory body to President Putin, and yet seem to have some freedom in being critical of Russian policy.  If anything they are more left wing than right wing, and I think it's a credit to Putin that he at least listens to what they have to say.  It would be difficult to spin that the Council is some right wing tool.

  •  Uprated to counter HRs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    debedb

    I believe there were election shenanigans in Crimea. I don't think the referenced report proves it. That however is no reason to hide this diary. If questionable sources and leaps of logic are worthy of censure the people consistently leaning on RT, globalresearch, Bild (ha!), etc. better pack their bags.

    •  It's blatant propaganda (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ChadmanFL, corvo

      The source is no source at all(not official numbers), and the numbers from Forbes supposedly 'reflecting' the source, are different!

      If this were Forbes being all rightwing on some domestic issue and getting reposted here you bet your butt people would hr it, but since it's about "Pooty Poot" anything goes I guess.

      •  I may be newish here, but (0+ / 0-)

        can you point me in the direction of the site rule this diary violates?

        •  Tip jars are always HR'd for rightwing thinktank (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ChadmanFL, corvo

          propaganda. The problem is that in this particular case, the 'left' agrees with it.

          More about Forbes' Gregory:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          •  So you reject the diary... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            debedb

            with an Ad hominen attack on Gregory rather than address the underlying issues raised by Putin's Council for Civil Society and Human Rights.  Sure Gregory put his right wing spin on it, but that doesn't invalidate the work done by the Council.

            •  It's not an official tally! (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ChadmanFL, corvo

              And what Gregory did was not 'spin', but a whole cloth lie, steno'd from a partisan Ukranian TV program. Not even his own original lie! Lies on top of lies deserve HRs .

              I'm "rejecting" the whole thing, you're right, because it's BS.

              •  Gregory misrepresented the data (0+ / 0-)

                but that doesn't invalidate the Council for Civil Society and Human Rights findings that in Crimea there was poor turn out, it passed by a fairly small margin, and that their interviews revealed that Crimeans were not so much for annexation as seeking protection from lawlessness and corruption.  The "mandate" for annexation of Crimea really wasn't one.  At the same time the Council expressed it's concerns for those Ukrainians who are being marginalized post annexation and proposed some accommodations to help reduce that.  

                The arguments here tend to paint this as a black/white, right/wrong issue when both sides are guilty of abuses.  You keep going back to these aren't official numbers.  Are there any official numbers?   We don't have any proof that they even counted a single vote.  Right now the Council for Civil Society and Human Rights' assessment of the referendum is the only decent analysis we have.  What would be best is an end to all violence by all parties, with both the US and Russia working toward that end.  Followed by international monitors to protect from further violence and negotiations towards a peaceful solution that protects the rights of all Ukrainians.

                •  Ok so truthiness prevails I guess. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChadmanFL

                  Good grief. I'm sure you guys wouldn't be as lenient with a domestic issue that was being skewed by a rightwing thinktank. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

                  •  What guys? (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm not advocating for a Ukrainian position or a Russian position.  Both sides are lying and distorting.  I believe the only sane solution is a  negotiated one that protects the rights of all Ukrainians regardless of their ethnic background and loyalties.

                •  The problem is intent and bedfellows. Here (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChadmanFL

                  we have a right wing ideologue who wants to take down Putin and Russia like the rest of the right and the neocons, and he's basically lying about something to make a point.  Why is he making that point?  To try to discredit the results of that referendum and also Putin.  The people here eat that up, thinking it's true, ya Putin fixed the election, he's evil, yada yada.
                  Doesn't it seem like a right winger and democrats here are on the same page?  

                  "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                  by BigAlinWashSt on Tue May 06, 2014 at 02:10:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Gregory lies and (0+ / 0-)

                    Putin lies.  Yes, some people on this site think we should be all in with Ukraine, but some folks also sound like we should be all in with Putin.  Both sides are lying and distorting.  So far the most credible voice seems to be Putin's own Council for Civil Society and Human Rights who are saying in Crimea the referendum really didn't indicate clear support for annexation.  They aren't proposing to undo it, but they are advocating for protecting the rights of Tartars and Ukrainians in Crimea who don't want Russian citizenship.  That calls into question those advocating a repeat of the referendum in the other eastern provinces.  Without a cessation of all violence and a negotiated solution a large segment of the population is going to have their rights trampled on, no matter who "wins".

                  •  the problem is intent and bedfellows (0+ / 0-)

                    146%, Big Al. 146% with you, man.

                    You're a man, right? Just checking. We have to check who gets into our 146%.

          •  So not actually against site ruies (0+ / 0-)

            The existence of the report isn't rightwing propaganda. The most you can say is Gregory skewed the data, which you could have easily pointed out without picking an HR fight.

            And yet... I just checked and you uprated that egregious open letter the other day, which was actually against the site rules regarding CT.

            Anyway, by trying to quash it you made this diary a bigger thing than it had to be.

            •  The existence of the report is not prop. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ChadmanFL, corvo

              NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. The skewing is the propaganda. From a rightwing thinktank, quelle surprise.

              And I did 'easily point it out' but the diarist doubled down. Thus the HR.

              •  Diarist quoted the article (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                and updated the diary with a link to the original source after people did some digging. Still nothing remotely HR-worthy. Again, please indicate the site rule that was broken.

                Referring to your other response, simply tossing out 'bullshit' and some ad-homs doesn't constitute an argument.

                •  The source doesnt support the article (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ChadmanFL

                  Journalism 101. And absolutely HR worthy, even if it wasn't coming from a rightwing thinktank looking to start WW3 with Russia.

                  •  Diarist didn't write the Forbes piece (0+ / 0-)

                    You are making a really great case for giving the editors of Forbes an HR, but the diarist is not at fault for citing a mainstream publication that has been cited by many others here, including front pagers. Not only did diarist include a link to the source as you requested, but the original article was later updated by Forbes to reflect the nuance of the original report.

                    HRs are for stuff that's so egregious it's not even worth discussing. This story is clearly worth discussing. Even if it weren't, any grey area benefits the commenter/diarist and there's plenty of grey area here. Based on the above there is absolutely no justification for the censure, and you saying "nuh uh" doesn't change that.

                    Not trying to "gotcha" here. I think these distinctions are important. We should try to play the ball and not the man.

            •  "Against site rules regarding CT" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ChadmanFL

              Bullshit. But do go on supporting the thinktankers, they're paid to be credible don't you know.

      •  blatant propaganda (0+ / 0-)

        I agree 146% :)

  •  WOW! Truly Amazing! A Forbes op ed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice

    scooped the L.A. Times, N.Y. Times, Guardian, S.F. Chron. Dang, this hardly ever happens, except, of course, when it is complete bullshit.

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

    by enhydra lutris on Tue May 06, 2014 at 05:21:06 PM PDT

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