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The New York Times certainly got my attention with this headline: “26 Percent of World’s Adults Are Anti-Semitic, Survey Finds.”

http://www.nytimes.com/...

http://global100.adl.org

The survey in question was a global survey conducted by the Anti-Defamation League, and designed to probe the level and intensity of anti-semitism. The survey also found that half the respondents had never heard of the Holocaust. Now, that finding doesn’t necessarily mean the people are anti-semitic. It could to some extent just indicate ignorance. I’d consider it more anti-semitic if someone had indeed heard of the Holocaust, but denied that it actually happened or tried to argue that it was overblown.

Interestingly, the highest levels of anti-semitism are in the Middle East and North Africa. But before jumping to the list of the most anti-semitic countries, let’s take a look at the least anti-semitic countries, as measured by the percentages of adults holding anti-semitic views:

Thailand             13%
Tanzania             12%
Denmark              9%
United States      9%
United Kingdom      8%
Vietnam              6%
Netherlands      5%
Sweden              4%
Philippines              3%
Laos                   0.2%

http://www.timesofisrael.com/...

A couple of interesting observations. Some of these countries have almost no Jewish population, and few Jewish visitors, so one might suggest that lack of direct exposure correlates with the absence of anti-semitism. That isn’t really the case, however, as we will see when we reach the list of the worst offenders. Many of those virulently anti-semitic countries have no Jewish population or visitors, either. The other observation is that even in the good countries, there are significant percentages of respondents who believe that Jews put loyalty to Israel ahead of loyalty to their own country:

Sweden    27%
UK            27%
US            31%
Denmark    39%

The dual-loyalty claim is anti-semitic, but is also a form of prejudice directed against other minorities. For example, dual loyalty claims were common smears during John F. Kennedy’s presidential campaign.

Now let’s look at the worst offenders. Greece is apparently the most anti-semitic country in Europe, at 69%, but the Greeks are amateurs when compared to the Arab/Moslem world:

Morocco/Qatar/UAE     tied for 10th most anti-semitic, at 80%
Jordan    81%
Bahrain    81%
Kuwait    82%
Tunisia    86%
Libya      87%
Algeria    87%
Yemen    88%
Iraq            92%
And the most anti-semitic (cue drum roll, please)....

West Bank/Gaza 93%

Now I know that West Bank/Gaza isn’t actually a country, but if a Palestinian state is ever formed, that’s what it consist of.

So what is the takeaway from this survey? Well, as it applies to the prospects for peace between Israel, on the one hand, and the Palestinians and other Arab countries, on the other hand, it is both relevant and bleak. It is often argued that all Israel has to do is end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and there will be peace. These extreme levels of anti-semitism, however, raise the distinct possibility that the Arab/Moslem world will never accept Israel, because it is the Jewish national homeland. Indeed, one must ask whether this conflict can ever end, as long as one side harbors such extreme prejudice and hatred towards the majority population of the other side.  

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Comment Preferences

  •  Dual loyalty claims not necessarily anti-semitic (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ChuckChuckerson

    these claims are made against anyone who has two passports, see Ted Cruz.

    and it is not about the jewish religion or the peoples jewishness that has anything to do with not liking our foreign policy tied to competing interests for anyone

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Wed May 14, 2014 at 12:30:05 PM PDT

  •  This doesn't come as a surprise... (15+ / 0-)

    given the rhetoric used by governments in that region, nor does it come as a surprise when anti-Israel advocates repost Nazi propaganda.

    Enacting our agenda requires winning elections. Oh, and me on Facebook and Twitter.

    by Mets102 on Wed May 14, 2014 at 12:37:39 PM PDT

  •  Great diary, redsfan (9+ / 0-)

    I saw this first thing this morning.  I wish I were more surprised.

  •  When did Gaza become a country? n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  This is a new one on me (12+ / 0-)
    It is often argued that all Israel has to do is end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and there will be peace.
    Who says that? It would at least require rolling back the settlement enterprise, and then actually negotiating borders and security and other contentious issues. And that would only give the kind of harsh peace that Israel has with Egypt and Jordan, to begin with.

    We have only to look at South Africa and Northern Ireland to see that such old hatreds die hard, and that justice can take generations to achieve. Also the US after the Civil War, which some are still fighting a century and a half later.

    Even German reunification, which was hugely popular on both sides, was quite troubled. North Korea will be even worse.

    But the US and its allies definitively made peace with formerly Nazi Germany and formerly Imperial Japan, in large part by supporting their economic successes over more than a generation. Peace does not come through conquest, as the aftermath of World War I showed, but through treating other people as people, as in the case of the Marshall Plan.

    Murderous old enemies, including terrorists, do sometimes make peace, and their children and grandchildren do gradually get over it. Mostly. If we let them.

    Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

    by Mokurai on Wed May 14, 2014 at 01:13:42 PM PDT

    •  I see it all the time (6+ / 0-)

      the statement that if only Israel were to end the occupation there could be peace. And it's either dishonest, or just naive. This ADL survey shows that -- there is widespread hatred towards Jews throughout the Arab/Moslem world, and just moving Jewish settlers from the West Bank won't change things. Your points are well-taken.

    •  I have seen this exact comment multiple times (4+ / 0-)

      here at this site.

      "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

      by JNEREBEL on Wed May 14, 2014 at 02:02:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  i think one of the issues here is that historicall (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RedsFanForever, JayinPortland

      y and, unfortuantely currently, the world really doesn't like Jews.  I mean, sure, the world has Jewish friends and all (I say this with a touch of snark but not really) but we're still seen as an other--a 'type' that people often feel some ill-will towards--and that can turn into violence when political/economic situations take a turn for the worst.

      That said, Israel/Palestine, while extremely important, is also seen as a cause celebre--and is used by many to continue to scapegoat Jews under the guise of being against the poitical entity of Israel (while at the same time advocating for the legitimately noble cause of Palestiniain statehood).  I live in Europe and have seen this sort of thing hundreds of times--often among my friends, too who often DO harbor anti-Jewish prejudices that I simply can't do anything about.

      So the roots of anti-Jewish sentiment are far beyond the I/P conflict--to be honest, Jews and Arabs got along far, far better under the Ottoman middle east--and Arabs, when they meet a Jew, are often warm to them as fellow people of the book although there is still a great deal of general hostility based on political sentiments.The fact that Israel is home to the Jewish people isn't exactly lost  on anyone.    So while peace in the middle east would be great in terms of political stability, it doesn't address the roots of the problem.  

      Moreover, advocates of the so-called "1-state solution' fail to take this into account.  I know there are some right-wing Israelis who favor this too but it's usually proposed on the far left--would do well to consider that there are a total of ONE HUNDRED Jews in the entire country of Egypt, population 80 million.  Although the peak of this (often forced) exodus was back in the 50s, the exodus of Jews from Arab countries long after that--due both to reasons of their own accord and to persecution into the modern day--suggests that political peace is only surface treatment of a far larger problem--although I agree it is fundamentally important.

      •  It is important to bear in mind (0+ / 0-)

        that Muslims were reviled as much as Jews in Europe since before the Crusades, which came down hard on them both. This is best known in the case of the Spanish Inquisition, which sought to root out both secret Jews and secret Muslims, along with that it took to be Christian heresy. However, the very first act of the noble knights in the First Crusade, before going off to ravage the Holy Land, was a pogrom against Germain Jews. A later Crusade sacked Constantinople/Byzantium, even though the Greek Orthodox Church was officially only schismatic, not heretical.

        Israel fronting for the Armageddonists who provide funding does not help. That money is not worth the tsuris from Muslims, or from the warmongering Armageddonists themselves.

        The only known way to get over these hatreds, over several generations, is to interact with each other as often as possible. See Axelrod, The Evolution of Cooperation. That is exactly what is not possible between I/P and the officially anti-Semitic frontline Muslim countries. Yet. But now we have the Internet, so that physical barriers matter less and less over time.

        Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

        by Mokurai on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:21:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Anti-Semitism is rampant all over the Mideast (13+ / 0-)

    It's not just about Israel.

    It's not uncommon for blood libels (i.e., Jews kill non-Jewish children to use their blood to bake Passover matzah) to be published in major newspapers in the Mideast quoting "experts" on Judaism. (Note: I'm sure someone will say that MEMRI is giving a bad translation, or is a bad source, or something like that.)

    If that's not bad enough, here's an article that was on the web site of a member of the PLO Executive Committee.  How do you expect to have peace when the supposed "peace partners" publish stuff like this intended to make their people hate Jews?  

    Does anyone wonder whether Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International give a damn about anti-Semitism?  Does anyone ever call out particular Arab or Muslim speakers for obvious anti-Semitism?  Why aren't John Kerry,  President Obama or anyone in our news media calling out this stuff?  Shouldn't these bigots be treated the same as other bigots like Donald Sterling and banished from their and our communities?

  •  Anti-Semitism Is Rampant in the Middle East (0+ / 0-)

    In other news water is wet.

  •  Of course they hate the Jews (16+ / 0-)

    Jews make an easy target for the ignorant and the power hungry. It's easier to blame "Jew Bankers" than blame poor infrastructure and local corruption.

    Maybe it's because I didn't expect it, as I would have in the middle east, but I found Sweden to be shockingly anti-Semitic, and openly hostile to the idea of a Jewish state.

    This revolution is not scheduled!

    by harrylimelives on Wed May 14, 2014 at 01:32:07 PM PDT

  •  What the ADL didn't report (6+ / 0-)

    I would be interested in knowing the responses to some of the questions that were included in the questionnaire but which are not reported in the ADL's executive summary.  For one, the survey asked whether Israeli behavior influenced people's views of Jews.  It also posed a question seemingly aimed at probing whether people distinguished between the Israeli state and the Jewish people.  I think that much of the anti-semitism in today's world reflects revulsion at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians.  I can't say for sure, but I suspect that the ADL's reticence on the responses to these questions reflects its unwillingness to acknowledge that Israeli behavior is, indeed, a major cause of anti-Semitism.

    Author, Chomsky's Challenge to American Power www.tony-greco.com

    by Tony Greco on Wed May 14, 2014 at 01:36:14 PM PDT

  •  and Europe. Trust me--I live here. (6+ / 0-)

    OK now I'll read your diary.

  •  Interesting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    callmecassandra

    But not completely surprising that Iran did not make the top (bottom?) ten.

  •  Sure. Blame the failure of peaceful resolution (3+ / 0-)

    on supposed Palestinian anti-Semitism. Did they do a survey on anti-arab attitudes in Israel?

  •  Is it possible attitudes in West Bank/Gaza (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    callmecassandra, Kevskos, AoT

    Are somehow related to the fact they are occupied?

    And that tier anti-semitism has some underlying grievances?

    No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

    by koNko on Wed May 14, 2014 at 07:01:46 PM PDT

    •  If that is the case (9+ / 0-)

      then what is the excuse in Yemen, Bahrain, Tunisia, etc?

      But more to the point, is there really any acceptable justification for bigotry?

      •  Or violence against children? (2+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        cville townie, Brecht
        Hidden by:
        Al Abama

        Or staving them for political purposes?

        I'd say no in all cases but it happens, even on the West Bank.

        No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

        by koNko on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:38:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Who's starving children for political purposes? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102, RedsFanForever

          Lebanon?  Yeah.

          Syria?  Nah, they're just killing them, actually.

          I think you're ignorantly barking up the wrong tree here, but that should't be a surprise.

          •  I'm not at all surprised (0+ / 0-)

            You respond with an ad hom attack, that is a feature of I/P discussion threads.

            Do you have kids, Jay?  Would you trade their position with Palestinian children because their quality of life so excellent under the nurturing hand of Israel?

            I wouldn't put my daughter in that situation.

            No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

            by koNko on Thu May 15, 2014 at 06:42:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Wow! I earned a bogus HR on this thread. Bingo! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          protectspice

          And a cowardly hit and run HR with no explanation because there is none to be had.

          I must be on to something here.

          No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

          by koNko on Fri May 16, 2014 at 07:22:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Glad to remove the HR (0+ / 0-)

            if you can provide a factual link from a credible source that shows Israel is intentionally starving Palestinian children for political purposes.

            This is almost as bad as the claim that Israelis kill non-Jewish babies and use their blood for their passover matzos.

            I'd expect this kind of ridiculous statement from someone who is a small minded bigot, not someone on a progressive site.

    •  Based upon your logic... (11+ / 0-)

      whites in Zimbabwe with grievances against the Mugabe dictatorship would be justified in any anti-black racism.

      Please stop making excuses for anti-Semitism.  It is anti-Semitism and it has no justification, just like any other hatred.

      Enacting our agenda requires winning elections. Oh, and me on Facebook and Twitter.

      by Mets102 on Wed May 14, 2014 at 07:07:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not about justification (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        callmecassandra, protectspice, koNko

        It's about reasons.

        Are you seriously going to say that the levels of anti-semitism in Palestine would be just as high if there was no occupation?

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 07:15:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, how do you explain (6+ / 0-)

          Tunisia, Bahrain, Libya, Algeria and Yemen? There's no occupation there, yet levels of anti-semitism are appallingly high. What is their "explanation?"

          •  There is an occupation of Palestine (4+ / 0-)

            and those countries share an ethnicity. They have a connection to Palestine because of their shared ethnicity and as such they are likely to react to what happens to Palestinians.

            I would bet that the conflict is also responsible for the high levels of anti-arab sentiment among Israeli Jews.

            These sort of conflicts breed hatred, and often that hatred isn't rational, it spirals into antisemitism or anti-arab racism, or some other sort of racism.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 07:42:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Their shared ethnicity is a joke (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JayinPortland, leftynyc, ocschwar, Mets102

              First of all, they share ethnicity with many Israelis, since half of Israeli Jews have their origins in the Arab world. Of course, when Israel was founded, anti-semitism trumped shared ethnicity/nationality, and those countries expelled their Jewish citizens. 750,000 Jews from Arab countries expelled, and now they and their descendants are a majority of the Israeli population. Israeli Jews from Yemen have a lot more shared ethnicity with Yemenite Arabs than some Palestinian from Ramallah.

              Second, when they aren't trying to kill Jews, they are happily killing each other. Look at Iraq and Syria -- Arabs are killing their ethnic brothers every single day, dozens at a time.

              •  So then your explanation is that Arabs (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                protectspice, koNko

                are just inherently more antisemitic than other groups of people?

                Or what?

                What explains the difference if not the obvious explanation that Israel's actions in Palestine explain the difference of opinion found in the Arab world in regards to antisemitism?

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 07:53:19 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The real question... (5+ / 0-)

                  ...is why are you so vested in seeking to 'explain' away astonishing, nearly universal, levels of antisemitism.

                  Would you do the same when it came to bigotry and / or racism against any other group of people?

                  •  I'm not trying to explain away anything (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    callmecassandra, protectspice, Brecht

                    I'm trying to explain why something exists. When I say that poor whites are racist, the ones that are racist, because it gives them a feeling of superiority even though they are at the bottom of the economic ladder, I'm not excusing the racism, I'm giving an explanation.

                    I guess antisemitism is totally unexplainable and Arabs are just naturally more antisemitic than everyone else. Because that's what we end up with if we don't have another explanation for why antisemitism is so high.

                    Explaining is not excusing.

                    Would you do the same when it came to bigotry and / or racism against any other group of people?
                    Yes, i very much do. Figuring out where racism or antisemitism or Islamophobia comes from is a step towards getting rid of it. You seem to be happy to just say it exists and move on as if condemning racism stops it. There are underlying causes for things and ignoring those underlying causes means that the problem will never be solved.

                    So I'll ask the question again: What explains the difference if not the obvious explanation that Israel's actions in Palestine explain the difference of opinion found in the Arab world in regards to antisemitism?

                    Can you answer?

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:12:48 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, I don't give a shit why (5+ / 0-)

                      the Arab world might hate Jews. Like you said, it's inexcusable. If they have a problem with Israeli policies, then they can protest Israeli policies. Racism and bigotry are inexcusable, whatever pathetic explanation one might come up with. I don't care whether we are talking about Cliven Bundy, telling us all he knows about "the Negro," or Donald Sterling pontificating about blacks and AIDS, or the Arab world. If they are bigoted, they are assholes.

                      •  And I suppose you don't care why (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        callmecassandra, protectspice

                        Israeli Jews hate Arabs either?

                        You want to ignore the role the occupation and expansion of Israel plays in stoking antisemitism because if you do so then you can use the antisemitism as an excuse to continue both those things. You use it as an excuse for Israel's failure to negotiate in good faith.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:25:23 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The goalpost store called... (4+ / 0-)

                          ...and said it would really appreciate if you'd stop moving the merchandise so much.

                          If you can find a survey stating that Jewish feelings towards Arabs is on a reciprocal level as that noted in this diary, please have at it.

                          Inform us of these 'facts.'

                          •  Israeli feelings toward Arabs (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, protectspice, Brecht

                            are horrible. Nearly 40% support segregation an a supermajority think Arabs are inferior.

                            And the younger generation is worse.

                            And what goal post did I move? None. I have been talking about the role the Israeli occupation of Palestine plays in Arab antisemitism. There isn't a single moved goal post.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:40:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Even if one were... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            RedsFanForever, Mets102

                            ...to accept your premise, which I do not (you're not exactly burnishing your credentials with Jews by arguing that antisemitism is a logical bigotry), what would the feelings of a country's citizens towards a group of people have to do with the latter group's feelings towards all of the people of that ethnicity, most of whom do not live in the country which allegedly fuels their grievances?

                            Again, looking away, for now, from the fact that you're wrong (you clearly don't know many Jews, if you think we agree on everything, especially issues such as this, do you?), you've also typed thousands of words in a diary about antisemitic attitudes trying to distract from the very topic by inserting your hatred of Israel.  Yes, you've moved goalposts.

                          •  I'm not arguing it's a logical bigotry (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice, Brecht

                            I'm saying that the IP conflict inspires hatred and hatred is not logical so it turns into antisemitism.

                            Again, looking away, for now, from the fact that you're wrong (you clearly don't know many Jews, if you think we agree on everything, especially issues such as this, do you?), you've also typed thousands of words in a diary about antisemitic attitudes trying to distract from the very topic by inserting your hatred of Israel.  Yes, you've moved goalposts.
                            First, I know a lot of Jews and I certainly don't have any illusion that they agree on everything. The views of Jews I know are extremely varied. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, but I certainly agree with you there.

                            Second, that's not moving the goal posts. If anything it would be a non sequitor. But it isn't that either because the diarist specifically relates this information on antisemitism to the I/P conflict without acknowledging the role that conflict plays in stoking antisemitism. You and the diarism pretend as if antisemitism exists in a vacuum. It doesn't.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 09:05:54 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, we don't... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Al Abama

                            ...'pretend as if antisemitism exists in a vacuum.'  We both know much better.

                            We just argue that Israel is not its 'cause,' as the countless examples of dispossession, murder, violence, expulsion and pogroms aimed at the Jewish people, throughout history, long before Israel ever existed, clearly demonstrate.

                            History did not begin in 1967, AoT.

                            I know large parts of the world hate us for completely illogical, bigoted reasons.  I don't care to 'understand' it.  That you seem to expend an extraordinary amount of effort seeking to tell us why certain parts of the world hate us isn't helping.

                            Again, I'm not sure what your motivations are, but you'd probably be well-advised to just cut it out.

                            If you have policy issues to advocate, go for it.  But stop trying to 'explain' antisemitism.

                            We know more about it than you do.

                          •  Whoa! Please provide a link for this statement (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102
                            a supermajority think Arabs are inferior.
                    •  Then I would suggest... (4+ / 0-)

                      ...that your thoughtful efforts would probably better be directed elsewhere, and towards better ends.

                      I don't care 'why' any given group of people hates me.

                      You make the mistake of assuming that bigotry and racism are  possibly logical responses to the lot of any given person or group.

                      I reject that theory.

                      And as a (formerly) poor white person of two ethnicities (Jewish and Irish) which have been targeted for much hatred ourselves, in the not too distant past, I can tell you that I never personally felt the need to hate anybody else to 'up' my position on the social ladder, either.

                      So that theory is nonsense, too.

                      Bigots are bigots, and when an entire society takes up such a 'cause,' it is that simple fact which is the problem, and not the targets of their ire and rage.

                      If you think you're successfully 'explaining' anything (your 'obvious explanation' re: Israel says more about you than anything else), I must inform you that you are not doing a very good job of it.

                      Bigotry and racism are not things which should be 'explained' or 'understood.'  Rather, they are things which should be rejected outright.

                      Whatever happened to that particular part of our liberal values, eh?

                      I don't care to answer your concerned 'question,' because I reject all bigotry outright, especially one aimed at me.  I am not 'occupying' anything at the moment, aside from a small studio apartment in North Philadelphia for which I believe I pay a fair price.  Why an Arab halfway around the world would think I control the media or my country's foreign policy is beyond me.

                      •  So then you're going to ignore the elephant (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        callmecassandra, protectspice, Brecht

                        in the room, the occupation of Palestine, and the effect it has on people's view of Jews. That's rather convenient.

                        I wonder what you'd think of black American's opinions of white Americans during slavery. I bet they really hated them. We shouldn't look at the reasons though.

                        You're going to close your eyes and cover your ears and pretend like Arabs are just evil and hate Jews. Cool, you do that. It's good to know where everyone stands on this.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:34:20 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  We don't have to pretend they hate Jews (6+ / 0-)

                          the proof is there. They dominate the list of countries that hate Jews for being Jews.

                        •  The 'elephant in the room'... (5+ / 0-)

                          ...is the nearly universal antisemitism amongst Arab societies, which you are seeking to 'explain' as having something to do with Israel, even though a majority of the world's Jews do not even live in Israel.

                          You are the one excusing and seeking to 'explain' bigotry here, not me.

                          I find your little rhetorical trick of comparing opinions on Jews, in nations in which there are no more Jews, to the opinions of African-Americans towards whites at a time and in a place where they were actively enslaved to be appalling.

                          Your 'comparison' fails on every level, and seems to me to be pretty insulting to African-Americans.

                          I've said nothing about 'evil,' and I'm not the one with my eyes closed.

                          It's certainly good to know where you stand on trying to 'understand' antisemitism, despite being told numerous times that bigotry is never understandable or excusable.

                          I would think this would be something my fellow liberals would intuitively understand, but then again I guess that's precisely the problem we have anymore.

                          •  " bigotry is never understandable or excusable." (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice, Brecht

                            Except that it is understandable in some cases. This is just absurd. After Japan attacked the US the amount of anti-japanese racism sky rocketed. You're going to pretend that the two weren't connected?

                            Israel actively kills Arab civilians and you're going to pretend that has nothing to do with the high levels of antisemitism in the Arab world?

                            When you oppress or attack people they aren't going to like you for it. The are going to hate you. And hatred isn't rational.

                            When you ignore the role that Israeli actions play on the rise of antisemitism then you're ignoring reality.

                            You can't even answer a simple question. Do you think that antisemitism would be as high if Israel wasn't occupying Palestine?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:51:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not going to 'pretend' anything. (5+ / 0-)

                            Rather, I'm going to say that anti-Japanese sentiment then was wrong.  Just as anti-Arab sentiment after 9-11 was, and is, wrong.

                            I assume you agree.  My question, then, is why are you only arguing with Jews that we should seek to 'understand' why some hate us?

                            Again, would you do this with any other group of people experiencing bigotry of astonishing levels?

                            No, Israel does not 'actively kill Arab civilians.'

                            From what crevice do you pull this nonsense?

                            Sometimes Israel responds militarily to attacks upon it, as every other sovereign nation in the world does.

                            Israeli citizens of Arab ethnicity enjoy more freedoms and rights than most of their compatriots in neighboring non-democracies.  Israeli-Arab judges have passed sentence on Jewish Israeli politicians.  Israeli-Arab politicians serve in the government bodies of Israel.  Israeli-Arab citizens enjoy all of Israel just as much as Jewish Israelis do.

                            It's actually your comments which aren't rational, AoT.

                            Again, I 'occupy,' 'oppress' and kill nobody.  Nor do something like 99.999999999% of the world's Jews.

                            We get it, you hate Israel.  But Israel isn't going anywhere, and all the 'mere criticisms of Israeli policy' in the world don't excuse antisemitism.

                          •  And I'll reiterate that antisemitism is wrong (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, protectspice, Brecht

                            Just because something is wrong doesn't mean it occurs in a vacuum. Are you seriously going to argue that the levels of anti-Japanese racism wouldn't have shot up if Japan hadn't attacked?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 09:10:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When was the last time... (4+ / 0-)

                            ...Jews attacked the United Arab Emirates, AoT?

                          •  Let me rephrase that (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, protectspice, Brecht

                            The bigotry itself isn't necessarily understandable, but the fact that it would rise is. Although, in some cases the bigotry is understandable. I would understand a black slave in Georgia in 1820 hating all white people. I think that's a perfectly understandable bigotry. I don't think that all white people at the time were evil, but it would make sense to me that a black slave would feel that way.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:54:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Stop comparing... (6+ / 0-)

                            ...the situation of African-Americans under slavery towards those who enslaved them, to the opinions of Arabs towards Jews in nations in which there aren't even any more Jews.

                            This is not only completely nonsensical, but it also strikes me as rather bigoted and insulting.

                            It seems crystal clear to me that you have no point to make here whatsoever.  Sometimes it's best to just put down the shovel, stop digging, admit you've lost, and move on.

                          •  You can try and erase the oppression of Palestians (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, protectspice, Brecht

                            by Israel all you want but it won't make it go away.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 09:23:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where does this claim come from? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102, Al Abama

                            You have so much anger, AoT.

                            Here I am, debunking your comments pretty much word for word, and you respond by ascribing motives to me which do not exist.

                            I'm asking you what on earth drives nearly universal hatred of Jews in some places where Jews haven't even set foot in over half a century, and you accuse me of oppressing Palestinians.

                            Logic is not your strong point, is it?

                          •  I didn't accuse you of oppressing anyone (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice, callmecassandra, Brecht

                            I accused Israel of oppressing Palestinians. And that's why the slavery analogy works. It's reasonable to hate people who are oppressing you. Israel is oppressing Palestinians, therefore Palestinians hate Israel, but because hate is irrational that turns into antisemitism. That's a much simplified version, as there was already antisemitism in the region, as there is most everywhere except large chunks of Asia.

                            Zionist created a Jewish state an expelled hundreds of thousands of Arabs, and have kept them out to make sure that the state would stay majority Jewish. Israel oppresses Palestinians in the name of defense.

                            You don't deserve the blame for that just because you're a Jew. No one deserves the blame for that except to the extent that they've taken action to help make it the case. Or refused to act to stop it if they could with some reasonable effort.

                            Blaming antisemitism for the lack of resolution to the conflict as the diarist implies is putting the horse before the cart.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 09:52:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, it doesn't 'work.' (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102, Al Abama

                            But your privilege is showing in thinking you can so confidently speak for others.

                            I'm not aware that Jews have enslaved millions of Arabs.  Link, please?

                            Your history is lacking.

                            Jews built a nation for ourselves on the land where we are from.  Jews accepted a partition agreement in 1948, Arabs rejected it and launched a war, trying to push Jews into the sea.  Jews won, beating not only the Arabs of Mandate Palestine who tried to push the Jews of Mandate Palestine into the sea, but also numerous other neighboring Arab nations, and their full militaries, as well.

                            "Zionist/s/m" may be a dirty word to you, but it means nothing more than the belief that Jews, just like all other peoples in the world, are entitled to self-determination.

                            Zionists didn't create a state by expelling anybody.  Israel was created by a declaration of independence, and then by winning a war, not of its own choice.

                            If you can't even get these simple facts straight, why should we take your word on anything else?

                          •  You need to learn to read (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Brecht
                            I'm not aware that Jews have enslaved millions of Arabs.
                            Please quote where I said this. If you're going to keep putting words in my mouth I'll step out of this conversation. You obviously can't admit that Israel oppresses millions of Palestinians through a blockade and colonization. If you ignore that then the hatred for Israel makes no sense so of course you're confused, you're blind to the oppression of Palestinians.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:09:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I received decent grades... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102, Al Abama

                            ...in reading when I attended grammar school back in the early and mid-80s, but thanks.  Maybe things have changed since then?  I'll take your concern with each single grain of salt it's due.

                            I think you need to stop repeatedly insulting African-Americans by comparing the horrific situation they suffered under slavery to your personal hatred of Israel.

                            Again, I'm not aware that Jews have enslaved millions of Arabs.  Can you point to me where this is actually happening?

                            Thank you for blockquoting my question.  Now can you answer it?

                            When was the last time you spoke against Egypt, which is not only 'blockading' Gaza, but also flooding Gazan smuggling tunnels with raw sewage?

                            When was the last time you spoke against Syria, whose government is actually engaged in murdering Palestinian Arabs right now?

                            When was the last time you spoke against the Arab nations who perpetually keep Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps to be used endlessly as weapons of war propaganda against Israel?

                            I'm betting never.

                            But you're clearly very, very, very concerned about Israel, aren't you?

                          •  So you are going to continue to ignore (0+ / 0-)

                            the oppression of Palestinians by Israel. Just sit in denial if you'd like. Don't worry, Israel will win and greater Israel will become a reality. And you con tell me all about your concern over how Arabs treat Palestinians then, just like you talk about how other Arabs treat the Palestinians when you aren't trying to change the subject from Israel's treatment of Palestinians. Because you care about it so much.

                            And your pathetic backhanded accusations of antisemitism are noted. Next time have the intestinal fortitude to actually accuse me of antisemitism instead of your sad thinly veiled accusations. No surprise that you'd resort to accusations of antisemitism for people who talk about the actions of Israel given that you can't even acknowledge the oppression of the Palestinians.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:32:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nope, I'm just going... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102, Al Abama

                            ...to continue to be the rational poster here who is not seeking to excuse bigotry or changing the topic to something that does not matter, or even exist to the extent it seems to inside the simple balck-and-white, feverish mind of my desperate interlocutor.

                            (I am also not, in fact, sitting in 'denial,' or 'the Nile,' though I'm sure some Jews are these days being accused of occupying Egypt, as well.  I understand that calling one's political opponent 'a Jew' in that corner of the world is a hot thing these days)

                            Oh gosh, and I'm extremely bothered that an anonymous Internet Tough Guy is questioning my 'intestinal fortitude!'

                            Sting, much?

                            Where do we go next?  Are you going to threaten to come here and beat me up?  I'm truly petrified, believe me...

                          •  Okay first, wow, Jews occupying Egypt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Brecht

                            Every time I think it can't get more absurd it does. The shit these people will come up with has no end.

                            Second, I haven't excused any bigotry as I'e said again and again. Maybe if you could learn to read.

                            Where do we go next?  Are you going to threaten to come here and beat me up?
                            I'm not sure what Portland you're in but if I could afford a plane ticket there I can almost certainly assure you that we would end up having a beer and talking about something else, something much more interesting.

                            I'm just tired of seeing the constant backhanded accusations of antisemitism here. I didn't call you anti-arab when I said you ignored the oppression of the Palestinians. Not even back handedly. If you're going to call me antisemitic then do it and stop with the silly implications and hints.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:55:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not in any Portland, though I briefly was... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Al Abama

                            ...when I set up this account.

                            I'm back home in North Philadelphia, one of the most heavily Muslim inner cities in North America.

                            If your comments thus far are any indication, I'm not quite sure your claim is true.

                            The question is why can you not simply accept that antisemitism is always wrong, and that we don't need others telling us 'but wait, this is why they hate you!'

                            Bigotry is always wrong, it is never understandable or acceptable, and that is that.

                            I'm not quite sure what about that is so hard to get?

                          •  I fully accept that antisemitism is always wrong (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Brecht

                            As I've said, hatred is illogical and the hatred of Israel because of its actions sometimes turns into antisemitism. It's not right, but it's true.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 11:35:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  'because of its actions' (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102, Al Abama

                            Is where you go wrong, and where your comments become offensive.

                            Israel is not a crazed, Arab-hating cartoon villain.

                            And again, even if it was (which it isn't), that would be no excuse for 9 out of ten people in Dubai thinking that I sacrifice Christian children due to my non-existent religious beliefs, or that I control the media, etc etc...

                          •  Hating Israel is not antisemitism (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            You are equating the two which means you either think that Israel == all Jews, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

                            Hating Israel because of its action is not illogical, especially not if you're Palestinian. But hatred isn't a rational emotion so that hatred can turn into antisemitism.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 11:51:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, yes. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102, Al Abama

                            Hating Israel, and subjecting it to double standards which are not expected of any other country in the works, IS absolutely antisemitic.

                            You do know what the word 'hate' means, right?

                            And why civilized people look down upon hate groups?

                            And no, hating Israel does not excuse hating all Jews everywhere, either, for the hundredth time.

                          •  And you've moved the goalposts (0+ / 0-)
                            Hating Israel, and subjecting it to double standards which are not expected of any other country in the works, IS absolutely antisemitic.
                            I just said hating Israel, not that other stuff, you made that up. Palestinians have good reason to hate Israel because of the actions Israel has taken and continues to take. I'm not holding Israel to any double standards.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:03:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hating Israel is antisemitism. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Al Abama

                            You do know what 'hate' means, right?  And why civilized people look down upon hate groups?

                            There, hopefully that's easier for you to understand.

                          •  Hating a country that is starving you (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra, Brecht

                            is not antisemitism. Hating Israel for it's actions is not antisemitism. You're equating Israel with Jews.

                            You do know what 'hate' means, right?  And why civilized people look down upon hate groups?
                            Nice equivocation. Hate groups are groups of racists or sexist and antisemites. Hating something does not make someone like a hate group. I'm sure you're the special snowflake that has never hated anything or anyone. If an Iraqi hates the US because of the invasion and massive number of dead then that is an understandable hate. If someone kills your family or your friend then hating the group that did it is entirely understandable. In the case of the Palestinians that means Israel.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:31:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Omg, you're beng starved by Israel?! (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Al Abama

                            How horrible!

                            Please, do hop on that plane quickly, then, and I'll certainly buy you a beer!  And food!

                            It's not only an equivocation, it's a fact.

                            Yes, hating the Jewish nation is, indeed, hating Jews.

                            This shouldn't be a controversial concept.

                            Which one of us killed your family or invaded your country?  If you're going to argue that antisemitism is cool, you need to up the ante, bro.

                        •  If I am subject to ethnic prejudice... (4+ / 0-)

                          it is not beholden upoin me to find the "reasons" why I am subjected to it.

                          Take your victim blaming elsewhere.

                •  History (4+ / 0-)

                  would argue that Arabs have been more anti-Semitic for longer than, and possibly more consistently than other groups. "Inherent"? That would imply some sort of genetic predisposition. A strong cultural tendency would be more accurate.

                  •  Longer and more consistently than Christians? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    protectspice

                    Are you kidding me?

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 08:35:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  In so much as... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      leftynyc, RedsFanForever, Mets102

                      ...the United States of America can be considered a "Christian nation," I would argue that our country is indeed the one, non-Israel, nation in the world with a large Jewish population which is also tolerant of us, and always has been.

                      Are you making the claim that there are Arab (not a religion, but since this seems to be your preferred comparison, we can go this way, too, for the purposes of this question) nations which are more accepting of Jews than the United States?  Please name them, if so.

                      Demonstrate your sincere concern over how consistently Christian nations oppress Jews by debunking this simple question.

                      •  I'm just saying that Christians have been (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        callmecassandra

                        worse to Jews than Muslims have historically speaking and have been so since before there even were Muslims. As Europe and "The West" has become less religious it has become less antisemitic, but historically Christians were far worse to Jews than Muslims were.

                        What I was taking issue with was the claim of "Longer and more consistently" not the current situation.

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:00:10 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I notice you didn't answer the question. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Mets102

                          Also, so we can then assume that you believe nearly universal levels of antisemitism can be excused, because a few hundred years ago, third-class life for Jews in certain Arab nations was slightly better than fourth-class life for Jews in certain Christian nations?

                          Thank you so very much for your concern.

                          •  I didn't feel the need to answer a question (0+ / 0-)

                            that is clearly answered in the diary. You did read it right?

                            Also, so we can then assume that you believe nearly universal levels of antisemitism can be excused, because a few hundred years ago, third-class life for Jews in certain Arab nations was slightly better than fourth-class life for Jews in certain Christian nations?
                            No, but apparently you can make shit up whole cloth.

                            Here is the specific comment I was replying to:

                            History (3+ / 0-)
                            would argue that Arabs have been more anti-Semitic for longer than, and possibly more consistently than other groups.
                            That's flatly wrong. That is all I was replying to. The issue was history, not current events.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:19:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course you don't feel the need... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            ...to embarrass yourself any further.

                            I'm not surprised.

                            How many comments have you now posted here, trying to divert the discussion away from the topic at hand?

                          •  The topic at hand is antisemitism (0+ / 0-)

                            in the middle east. Pointing out things that contribute to that is entirely on topic.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:41:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Which is why you ignore my analogy (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            A black slave in Georgia in 1820 can be excused his bigotry against white people, can he not?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 11:02:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've not 'ignored' it. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            Quite to the contrary, I've told you it's wrong, and offensive, multiple times.

                          •  So then you don't think (0+ / 0-)

                            that a black slave would be justified in hating all white people?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 11:30:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Let's ask a Black slave that. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Al Abama

                            We can perhaps start by asking victims of Boko Haram kidnappings.

                            Will you be making excuses for those who potentially hate all Muslims for that?

                            Can we look forward to your diary, or at least dozens of comments in one decrying bigotry against Muslims, on those terms?

                          •  If the girls kidnapped hated muslims (0+ / 0-)

                            because of what happened to them I think they would be blaming a much broader group than they should be, but I could hardly blame them for it. Would you attack them as bigots and call their hatred unreasonable.

                            If there's a diary about bigotry against Muslims in Nigeria then certainly the conflict between Muslims and Christians there would be to the point, would it not?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:00:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Would you be posting dozens... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, RedsFanForever

                            ...of comments telling Muslims why they should seek to understand why 90-plus percent of Hungarians, in a world survey, hold bigoted opinions of them, because what you believe about one of their nation states possibly justifies it, or at least makes it 'understandable?'

                            I'm thinking you won't.  We'll probably never know, but  we do in fact know that this is precisely how you treat Jews.

                          •  If the diary blamed that for (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            Muslims continuing to oppress some group of Hungarians then yes. Using antisemitism as an excuse for Israel to continue it's oppression of Palestinians makes this diary about the oppression of Palestinians.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:11:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not the diarist... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, RedsFanForever

                            He reported facts.

                            You've since gone off on a crusade telling Jews why we should seek to understand why we're hated, dozens of times in this diary.

                            Your 'defense' rings extremely hollow.

                            Please point me to any other documented instance where you've so vociferously defended those who adhere to bigotries other than antisemitism.

                            I'll be waiting.

                          •  He did more than report the facts (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            But keep up the intellectual dishonesty

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:32:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yet unlike you... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, Al Abama, RedsFanForever

                            ...he never sought to excuse bigotry.

                          •  No, just the oppression of millions (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice

                            of Palestinians. Although your anti-arab racism is shining through pretty clearly now, so I guess there's that. you're more concerned with what people say than the actual oppression that Israel undertakes against the Palestinian people.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:48:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Provide proof for this claim. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, RedsFanForever
                            Although your anti-arab racism is shining through pretty clearly now
                            Or do you not have "the intestinal fortitude?"

                            Perhaps you can follow through on your previous threats, and attempt to visit and beat it out of me?

                            You are such a sad, silly little fella.

                          •  And I've regularly argued (0+ / 0-)

                            that people of color have reason to hate the cops and, more generally, white people, especially black people.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 12:36:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Complete pablum. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I assume this has something to do with stop-and-frisk?

                            Some questions -

                            Have you ever lived in an inner city neighborhood where multiple young black men are murdered each night?

                            Do you realize that here in the largest minority-majority city in the United States, most police officers are African-American?

                            Perhaps African-Americans should have a reason to hate you, as you argue, but I argue that they should have no reason to 'hate' me.

                            (that's clearly your problem)

                            And once again, don't project your situation on others who don't share it.

                            Congrats on your white guilt, though, and I think it's truly precious how willing you are to share it.

                            Please do go all the way, sir, and give your home back to the descendents of the tribe from which you stole it!

                          •  I don't have white guilt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            Why would I?

                            Please do go all the way, sir, and give your home back to the descendents of the tribe from which you stole it!
                            I don't actually own any home so what would I give back?

                            Of course, you would make fun of the colonization of the US, you support the same in Israel.

                            Have you ever lived in an inner city neighborhood where multiple young black men are murdered each night?
                            Yes, I have. In one of the worst neighborhoods in the country. And no, this isn't just about stop and frisk, this is about a pattern of racism in this country. You can ignore that pattern like you ignore the oppression of Palestinians. You care solely about your own oppression.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 01:35:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then you're a squatter! (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102

                            Again, please go all the way, sir, and give where you squat back to the tribes you stole it from.

                            I'm not 'making fun' of anything, other than you.

                            Israel is a 'colony' only in the fevered minds of antisemites (ooooh, there you go - how's that for intestinal fortitude!) like you.

                            Please tell us, of which nation is Israel a 'colony?'

                            Do you even know the meanings of the words you use, or do you just stupidly drool out whatever sounds best at the time?

                            The fact that you refer to your old neighborhood as "one of the worst [...] in the country" makes me believe that you are a liar, because I live in North Philadelphia, and I don't feel the need to trash my neighborhood as you do your, alleged, old neighborhood.

                            I'm not oppressed by anybody, actually, honey, but thanks for 'caring.'  I ignore nothing.  You actively excuse and support racism.  See how far that gets you, brah.

                          •  So owning a home and squatting are the only (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            choices?

                            Please tell us, of which nation is Israel a 'colony?'
                            So settlements don't exist now? Being a colonial country means that Israel has colonies not that it is a colony. Are you really that stupid? England was a colonial nation because it had colonies. So was France. Although I suppose both still are to some extent. But keep pretending like Israel isn't actively expanding settlements. And do so while you claim you don't ignore oppression. Obviously it doesn't count if it's the Palestinians.
                            The fact that you refer to your old neighborhood as "one of the worst [...] in the country" makes me believe that you are a liar, because I live in North Philadelphia, and I don't feel the need to trash my neighborhood as you do your, alleged, old neighborhood.
                            In terms of violence East Oakland is one of the worst in the country. I figured sine we were talking about violence you'd understand that's what I meant. Unfortunately you lack basic reading skills.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 02:15:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Can you name... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            ...any other group of people in the world of which their building a few apartments, or expanding their bathrooms, somewhere, would spark an international crisis?

                            Oh boy, I'm absolutely devastated over being called 'stupid' by someone who thinks Jews buildings homes for themselves in the places we come from equals "colonialism!"

                            Can you put into words for us exactly why the creation of a Palestinian nation depends upon its being completely free of Jews?

                            Why can a Palestinian state not exist if there are 40 or 50 Jews in it?

                            Or even one?

                            As for Oakland, I love that city.  I've actually lived there myself!    Jack London Square, 2007.  I do not refer to it as "one of the worst in the country."

                            I would assume you did not engage in that violence, when you lived there, just like I do not engage in the violence of inner city Kensington, Philadelphia, on May 15, 2014.

                            I don't believe you ever lived in East Oakland (quick, tell me five taco trucks in Fruitvale, without looking it up on the internet!), but that really has nothing to do with what we're talking about now.

                            I do not lack basic reading skills.  You, on the other hand, lack basic logic skills.

                          •  Can you name another group in the world (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice

                            that maintains a massive population of people who are stateless on their own land?

                            I don't believe you ever lived in East Oakland (quick, tell me five taco trucks in Fruitvale, without looking it up on the internet!), but that really has nothing to do with what we're talking about now.
                            Because you can totally tell that I didn't look it up when I say that Sinaloa was my favorite and I never bothered with gruyese or the other ones.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 03:59:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In fact, yes. (0+ / 0-)

                            Not any more in terms of Jews, though, since Jews have successfully been completely ethnically cleansed from the nations we once held large populations in.

                            But not so long ago, the list of same would have tracked, quite nicely, the list of countries in this survey which hate Jews the most.

                            They got rid of their Jews, and they still hate us.  Go figure.  People like you, meanwhile, seek to excuse them.

                            As for your question, where should I start? China oppressing Tibet?  Iraq, Iran, Turkey and Syria denying the Kurds their own nation?  Russia in Ukraine?  Turks in Cyprus?

                          •  You have completely failed to name a country (0+ / 0-)

                            that maintains a group of people who are stateless on their own land. You're talking about oppressive countries, of which there are many. All those countries claimed that land, Israel occupies large parts of land that it doesn't claim and then says that the people who live there can't have a state. It is a unique situation in the world.

                            But not so long ago, the list of same would have tracked, quite nicely, the list of countries in this survey which hate Jews the most.
                            You clearly don't understand what 'stateless' means, or you don't know the history of the expulsion of Jews.

                            Your grasping for straws has come up short. Israel does not merely oppress, it is slowly creating a full blown apartheid state. You and other defenders of Israel can't seem to accept that. Instead you accuse anyone who points out the unique situation of being an antisemite.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 05:38:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, I named many. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Al Abama, Mets102

                            You once again blithered and blathered some naive, simple-minded, ignorant nonsense, and spewed yet more hate towards Israel.

                            I would note that I wouldn't want to be around when your head finally explodes, but then I realized there probably isn't anything inside it, anyway, aside from perhaps a few SJP flyers declaring that one certain building is now a Jew-free zone, or something similar to that...

                          •  You don't understand what stateless means, do you? (0+ / 0-)

                            You named oppressive countries, not countries that maintain millions of people as stateless. You're clearly too ignorant to know the difference.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 07:15:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sure. The Kurds (0+ / 0-)

                            Also Puerto Rico, Guam, Am Samoa, US Virgin Is.

                            Don't forget the Phillipenes from 1898 until WWII, and Alaska and Hawaii before 1959.

                          •  You don't understand what stateless means (0+ / 0-)

                            The Kurds are citizens of various states. They don't have their own nation state currently, but they are not stateless.

                            The rest of your list are people who are citizens of the US. That means they have a state.

                            Palestinians don't have a state. They are not citizens of any country. And Israel is doing everything in it's power to keep it that way.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 09:30:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, no (0+ / 0-)

                            Aren't Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and all of the other Arab countries doing everything in their power not to give citizenship to their Palestinian residents?

                            In the lands annexed by Israel, Israel has given citizenship to all of its Palestinian residents.

                            Aren't you directing your anger in the wrong direction?

                          •  Israel is actively working to deny Palestinians (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            protectspice, callmecassandra

                            a state in the occupied territories. Surrounding countries don't give the refugees that have fled Israel citizenship because they are from a different place. That's also an issue, but acting as if Jordan is the one denying Palestine statehood is absurd. Israel actively works against Palestinian statehood which would give all those refugees a state.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri May 16, 2014 at 07:02:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, the Palestinian leadership is actively (0+ / 0-)

                            working to deny Palestinians a state.

                            You may remember that there was a war, and you may have noticed that Israel and the Palestinian leadership at least been going through the motions of negotiating a peace agreement.  This is the wrong diary to argue who's at fault for the failure to achieve peace, but I'd argue that the Palestinian leadership is actively working to deny Palestinians a state.

                            And, as you know, citizens of Gaza already have the right to be citizens of Gaza.

                            Jordan is denying citizenship to human beings born in Jordan.  You think that's OK?  I think that's a crime.  As you know, the UNHCR definition of "refugee" would not consider that person a "refugee."

                            Israel has not annexed the West Bank and is not claiming it as Israeli territory.  Israel has no obligations to give citizenship to residents of territory that are not claimed as part of Israel.

                          •  The Palestinian leadership is actively seeking (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            recognition as a state. You can claim otherwise but there is not reality to your claims.

                            This is the wrong diary to argue who's at fault for the failure to achieve peace, but I'd argue that the Palestinian leadership is actively working to deny Palestinians a state.
                            If you would argue that then you have a profound ignorance of the reality of the situation. As linked above the PA is actively seeking statehood and Israel is doing its best to stop that. Israel refuses to negotiate as long as the PA is seeking to be recognized as a state. That you would blame the PA for Israels action is absurd.
                            And, as you know, citizens of Gaza already have the right to be citizens of Gaza.
                            Gaza isn't a state. Gaza is part of the state that the PA is trying to get recognized and that Israel is trying to stop from being recognized.

                            If Israel is so concerned about the "right to exist" then why is it denying Palestine's right to exist?

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri May 16, 2014 at 09:37:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're half right (0+ / 0-)

                            You're certainly correct that Palestinian leadership is seeking recognition as a state.

                            Israel, on the other hand, is seeking a long term peace. Under the land-for-peace formula, the only way israel is going to agree to give the Palestinians a state is when Israel has an agreement that gives Israel confidence that it will have peace over the long term.

                            FYI, I hope you'd agree that I've generally engaged in respectful dialog with you, even though we disagree about these issues.  I certainly respect that you're smart, quick and knowledgable, and obviously very committed on the Palestinian side of these issues.  I also recognize that the sentence containing the words "profound ignorance" began with the word "if" and that you were not actually calling me that, but I thought it was close enough to the line that I'd raise it.  I'll continue to try to be respectful and friendly in my dialog with you and hope you'll do the same.

                          •  Israel is actively working against Palestinians (0+ / 0-)

                            statehood and is openly doing so.

                            Israel, on the other hand, is seeking a long term peace. Under the land-for-peace formula, the only way israel is going to agree to give the Palestinians a state is when Israel has an agreement that gives Israel confidence that it will have peace over the long term.
                            If that were true then Israel wouldn't be expanding settlements. Israel has no interest in peace. What Israel wants is for Palestine to surrender.

                            But this is a different subject. We were talking about Israel's attempts to keep Palestine from being a state. There can be no peace unless either Palestine is a state or there is a single state in the Israel/Palestine area that treat all it's citizens equally. Israel has claimed it wants the former, but is currently working against it.

                            FYI, I hope you'd agree that I've generally engaged in respectful dialog with you, even though we disagree about these issues.  I certainly respect that you're smart, quick and knowledgable, and obviously very committed on the Palestinian side of these issues.  I also recognize that the sentence containing the words "profound ignorance" began with the word "if" and that you were not actually calling me that, but I thought it was close enough to the line that I'd raise it.  I'll continue to try to be respectful and friendly in my dialog with you and hope you'll do the same.
                            You have been more respectful than I have been at this point and I thank you for that and apologize. Not everyone has been as respectful as you have been and I responded to you in a disrespectful way because of that. That wasn't fair. I also think the claim that the Palestinian leadership is actively working to deny Palestinians a  state is completely wrong and isn't supported by any evidence. But that is no reason to be disrespectful, again, sorry.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri May 16, 2014 at 06:15:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks for the kind reply (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AoT

                            I'm going to call it a night tonight.

                            Thanks.

                          •  So in other words, you're a racist? (1+ / 1-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102
                            Hidden by:
                            protectspice

                            Thanks for the admission.

                          •  No, I'm not. (0+ / 0-)

                            You're the one issuing apologias for racism.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 01:36:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, you are. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102

                            You admit above that you have an interest in promoting hatred between the races, and that you actively do so.

                            Don't hate me for pointing this out.

                            And as for me, I'm the one replying to dozens of your comments seeking to 'explain' or 'understand' antisemitism

                            Which tells us all we need to know about you.

                          •  Wow, talk about putting words in my mouth (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra
                            You admit above that you have an interest in promoting hatred between the races, and that you actively do so.
                            What a mammoth lie. What an incredibly massive lie. You are simply pathetic at this point.
                            And as for me, I'm the one replying to dozens of your comments seeking to 'explain' or 'understand' antisemitism
                            You're the one pretending that the high rates of antisemitism in the middle east has nothing to do with Israel's actions toward Palestine. Live in your little bubble if you want to, but me pointing out this fact is not apologizing for shit.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Thu May 15, 2014 at 02:20:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again, when was the last time.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            ...Jews attacked the United Arab Emirates, AoT?

                            Still waiting for an answer on that one, big boy.

                          •  I am the diarist (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Al Abama, Mets102

                            and AoT once again engages in outright lies, easily disproved.

                          •  Where on earth do I do that? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kane in CA, Mets102

                            You are such a fucking liar. Never once have I used "antisemitism as an excuse for Israel to continue it's oppression of Palestinians" -- again, I am using YOUR words against you, to show the world what a pathetic fucking liar you are.

                          •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra
                            Indeed, one must ask whether this conflict can ever end, as long as one side harbors such extreme prejudice and hatred towards the majority population of the other side.  
                            You're not blaming palestinians for the "conflict" at all. Nope. Keep on pretending.

                            No War but Class War

                            by AoT on Fri May 16, 2014 at 07:10:05 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I most certainly am blaming (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            the Palestinians for the conflict. And I blame the Israelis too, because they play a role in it. But nowhere does that equate to "using antisemitism as an excuse for Israel to continue it's oppression of Palestinians"

                            Pathetic liar.

                    •  Film History maybe (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AoT
      •  I make no excuses for anti-Semitism (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        callmecassandra

        Or any other of the anti's on display on this thread including your own.

        But I'm pretty sure that, given your history on I/P threads here you are going to see anti-Semitism in anything less than chapter and verse Zionism, so let's leave it at that and not have this end up another flame war, OK?

        But for the record, I have said nothing remotely anti-Semitic here and object to you trying to put those words in my mouth so kindly keep it too yourself.

        EOM

        No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

        by koNko on Thu May 15, 2014 at 10:44:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Gaza is not 'occupied.' (12+ / 1-)

      And before you go into 'but but but blockade!' see: thousands of rockets fired at Israeli civilians; and also, Egypt.  Gaza's other neighbor.  Which when it isn't keeping its borders with Gaza closed, is shutting down Gazan smuggling tunnels by flooding them with raw sewage.

      Do 93% of Gazans have bigoted attitudes towards Egyptians?  I really don't know, someone should probably ask them.

      Also - Morocco, Qatar, UAE, Jordan, Bahrain, Kuwait, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Yemen and Iraq are not 'occupied,' either.  What then is their 'excuse' for having such 'grievances,' in your opinion?

      •  Oh look, a troll rate! (6+ / 0-)

        It's been a while since I've gotten one of those.

        Thanks, Wattle!

        •  Join the club (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          protectspice, callmecassandra

          I got one from your tag-teammate Al Abama, what goes around comes around.

          Nice diary. Even nicer people. Looks like my HR dropping pal only comes to Daily Kos to troll these diaries.

          I'm still wondering how I landed in this shit pile of a diary, I usually steer clear of these I/P diaries for what are now obvious reasons.

          Well, we all make mistakes, got enough here to last the next couple of years at least.

          Enjoy your time wallowing in the hatred.

          No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

          by koNko on Fri May 16, 2014 at 08:05:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Boo hoo (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102

            You got your ass handed to you, next time do stay away. We don't welcome people who make excuses for anti-semitism.

            •  So that was "getting my ass handed to me"? (0+ / 0-)

              A meaningless hit and run HR from a gutless hypocrite who complains s/he got HR'd without explanation elsewhere in this thread and then does the same thing?

              OMG, terminal internet butt-hurt, LOL.

              I think you just underlined my point about how hate filled and inflammatory these I/P diaries are - look at your own multiple comments accusing me of excusing anti-semitism when I have done nothing of the sort.

              Calm down, I came here by mistake and will be more careful to avoid these diaries and anything posted by you.

              That is what it come too, this crap is so anti-social people decide to shun the issue and the diaries and then you are left with a echo chamber filled with hateful, jaundiced people shouting at each other.

              No thanks. I have better things to do.

              No one is coming to save us, the future is in our hands.

              by koNko on Fri May 16, 2014 at 11:22:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not a wrestler. (0+ / 0-)

            I don't have 'tag-teammates,' and don't compare yourself to me.

            This rambling 'oh pity me' nonsense is pertinent to my response to you above, how exactly?

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