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Divide and conquer.

You understand that is what this is right?

While we are effectively combatting inequality, flushing Rush, creating sane firearms laws, and battling the Kochitopus,  we don't argue based on an abitrary gender division that is massively culturally influenced.

But it certainly makes a fine wedge issue.

And lookie here; instead of making action posts in order to ensure Not One More we are instead engaged in Pie.

And not even good pie but the kind that leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

Males an females are socialized differently in this culture.

Fighting eachother over the resulting inability to translate between genders is pointless.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I think sunshine is called for at this time (10+ / 0-)

    the wedge is already there

  •  I agree. Time to give the whole thing a wedgie (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III, sunbro

    and move on.

    Ted Cruz president? Pardon my Vietnamese, but Ngo Pho King Way.

    by ZedMont on Sat May 31, 2014 at 05:59:18 AM PDT

    •  I disagree. (7+ / 0-)

      That there are so many in our community that sometimes lose their lives, constantly lose their liberty and often their pursuit of happiness in ongoing oppression is a very important issue for this community and the community at large.

      That some men and even a few women don't get it is something we all need to work on with lots of effective discussion.

      Actually I'd say almost all men don't get it to some degree because we so rarely experience the fear and put down of objectification and sexual harassment.  

      I got a little hint the other day when a phone sex worker in an article talked about how hard a job that was.  (What, I thought, making good bucks for talking sexy on the phone?)

      But you see people wanting something personal from you in an aggressive way when they don't even know you makes you just a thing to be consumed like a rabbit to the wolf.  On some level that is really horrifying.

      But then, actually, I should STFU because I am sure I know nothing (Jon Snow).

      The highest form of spiritual practice is self observation with compassion.

      by NCJim on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:04:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please DON'T STFU (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wee Mama

        'cause I think you really get the point of this upheaval.

        Maybe the discussion feels like a distraction to some because the bad guys don't fall into our typical lineup of evildoers (Kochs, FOX, RWNJ, ...).

        It isn't a distraction to me.  It is a current issue.  Carter's recent book, then Rodgers...  This is a topic bubbling to the surface right now.  And it is an area that our society DOES need to work on.

        Why is discussing a current issue a distraction?

        Understanding is limited by perspective. Perspective is limited by experience. America is a great place to live but it limits our ability to understand.

        by CindyV on Sat May 31, 2014 at 09:55:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sometimes... (11+ / 0-)

    as issue has to be hashed out before people can move on.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that.  I'm kinda interested to know why the diarist thinks this is sour pie.  

  •  It's dangerous, living in the borderlands. (14+ / 0-)

    Eggstraction
    On the Borderlands


    The land
    on the border
    is fertile
    The people
    are kind
    gentle
    content
    for the most part
    until of course
    the patrol comes by
    to force everyone
    to move to one side
    or the other
    That causes
    great turmoil
    on the borderlands
    so sometimes
    we move
    the border
    when they aren't looking

    --Robyn Elaine Serven
    --March 3, 2006

  •  I was going to write this diary. (6+ / 0-)

    Divide and conquer were the first words that came to my mind after reading all the STFU diaries.

    This is what's happening. I see it on other liberal/progressive sites.  And it's not just gender bias- gun rights, LGTB rights and climate change are all being "debated".

    Angrily.

    I read a lot about how he Tea Party is destroying the republicans from within.

    I fear we are doing the same to ourselves.

    Let's stick with our common foe- the do nothing republican congress MUST be turned over to the democrats in November.

    Unite on that goal, please.

    Growing old is inevitable...Growing up is purely optional

    by grannycarol on Sat May 31, 2014 at 06:51:25 AM PDT

  •  For the amount of calls to STFU (5+ / 0-)

    it's "funny" how much "talk" has happened around here in the last couple of days.

    I missed almost all of it, come back and find a war has broken out. Now I wasted already two hours to try to figure out what happened here ...

    Looks to me that what is going on here is a "war on words". I can't stand wars. So, I am going to do something else and not read any further.

    How are you doing, friend? Hope life treats you always a little better than you expected, even though that is probably just my childish wishful thinking and a pipe dream. But pipe dreams beat wars in my books. What else can I say.

    :)

    We know a hell of a lot, but we understand very little. Manfred Max-Neef

    by mimi on Sat May 31, 2014 at 06:57:20 AM PDT

  •  Well, perhaps Kos should do a "STFU" for (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III

    a few days, as in "shutdown -h now" (or similar).  After all, Kos is male and besides, I am sure there are some hardware/software upgrades that would be much easier to do with some scheduled downtime.

    You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

    by Throw The Bums Out on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:08:16 AM PDT

  •  My last comment (8+ / 0-)

    on this subject is going to be in this diary.  I try to avoid outrage and rant diaries as a matter of principle, but I did wade into gjohnsit's diary and made this comment. Although I did not do so in the original comment, I am bolding the part which is my main point.

    Divide and conquer mentality (2+ / 0)

    seems to be pervasive around here lately.  I normally would avoid any diary with STFU in the title now, but I did come into this one because it was written by gjohnsit who is one of my favorite diarists here.  

    What you gjohnsit wrote needed to be said because what I have been seeing here at dkos is how we are systematically being divided and singled out by race, gender, or certain beliefs related to how our government operates.  Telling people to STFU is not a winning strategy, either politically or in real life.

    "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "...isn't the problem here that the government takes on, arbitrarily and without justification, an adversarial attitude towards its citizenry?" ~ SouthernLiberalinMD

    by gulfgal98 on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:17:29 AM PDT

    •  gjohnsit wrote his diary (9+ / 0-)

      based on the title of a diary he did not read

      that is sloppy strategy no matter how you slice it

      if gjohnsit, you, and others actually read the diary, you will see a strategy that has been used effectively in every liberation movement the world has ever seen:

      sometimes the privileged need to stop offering their own opinions and LISTEN to the realities of those demanding their chance to be heard

      Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
      DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
      Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:42:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If we all shutup... (0+ / 0-)

        ... how will anyone know if we're listening?

        I'm not paranoid or anything. Everyone just thinks I am.

        by Jim Riggs on Sat May 31, 2014 at 08:34:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Is this really a strategy that has been effective? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ferg, Wednesday Bizzare, gulfgal98, jrand

        Please understand I'm not arguing the point, I am asking this with sincerity and true curiosity, my focus on the "effective" part.

        Because for me... "shut up and listen" has never once made me feel like things are working. It feels abusive to be honest. It is something my mother used to say to me and it pissed me off beyond words then and still does today. I do not see it as helpful in any context.

        Given the state of "discussion" lately, I should add that I am a woman, mid-50s, have been a victim of sexual assaults, and abuses since early childhood. I have been through it, and of course like all women I experience the larger issues women are talking about on these threads. I could write probably for a month without stopping to detail the various experiences and ways I've been hurt, scared, angry, etc.

        I still do not want men to shut up. I don't want them to be cut out of the discussion or of the process of change. I don't think they can be, and have it be "effective" in creating a difference. I don't agree that they have nothing of value to add. I don't even agree that rape and abuse are "women's issues" alone. I don't find the framework of "women = victims and men = perpetrators" to be a useful framework for change. I really don't.

        My story -- funny that I honestly feel other women do not want to hear my perspective of this, but it's true, in my life some of my deepest wounds were inflicted by women. Yes it was men who abused me and violated me and assaulted me. It was my mother and grandmother who brought those men into my life and failed to protect me from them. Who looked the other way and took their side when I finally asked for help. It was other girls in junior high who called me a slut and threw eggs at me and threatened to beat me up because I was too sexy too early and boys liked me.

        And some of my most important protectors and people who literally saved my life have been men. Including the one I've been living with for 25 years and am married to. Including several male teachers and therapists who helped me get through the feelings of rage and powerlessness. I have needed both men and women to listen to me, and to help me, and to work together to create a better situation around us.

        I don't see how divisions and separation along gender lines, with one side doing all the talking and the other side being told they are the problem and have nothing to add or do or help with, I just don't see that as "effective" in making positive changes. Either on a personal or community of societal level, that just hasn't worked in my experience.

        Making actual changes for the better seems to work and happen when enough people work together to make that happen. That's why I really am not comfortable at all with where the discussion has gone on this topic. I truly don't think cutting men out of the discussion is going to make women's lives better.

        •  the division is not along gender lines (5+ / 0-)
          I don't see how divisions and separation along gender lines, with one side doing all the talking and the other side being told they are the problem and have nothing to add or do or help with, I just don't see that as "effective" in making positive changes
          as others have stated, the division is not along gender lines

          the division is between those who want to listen to what women have to say, and those who would rather talk over them, claiming their opinions of women's experiences are more important than women telling their own stories

          a moment came in the civil rights movement when black people demanded that they get the right to define their own experience, instead of white folks (even well meaning white folks) telling them who they are and what they should do.  they were criticized for being "militant" but it was an empowering turning point.

          a moment came in the gay rights movement when LGBTQI people demanded that they get the right to define their own experience, instead of cisgendered and heterosexual folks (even well meaning ones) telling them who they are and what they should do.    they were criticized for being "militant" but it was an empowering turning point.

          the same thing is happening here

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat May 31, 2014 at 08:59:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hum... well (0+ / 0-)

            I've seen diaries that say "Men: Shut the Fuck Up" and dairies now being designated as Men Only and Women Only. That sure feels like a division along gender lines to me.  

            But I plan to shut the fuck up about it now ... it's pretty clear that not all women's points of view are wanted either. And one thing I have learned is that beating my head against a wall never ends well for my head.

            Thank you for the reply TrueBlueMajority. I do understand on an intellectual level the point you're making, and I could say a lot more about my thoughts on it all, but I really don't have the energy for that right now.

        •  Truly moving statement, CS (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Meteor Blades, CS in AZ

          And I understand where you're coming from having experienced some similar things in my nearly 60 years as a female.

          This topic is bound to end up dividing by gender.  Women who need to open up about their pain could feel abused if some men became confrontational - denying or belittling their comments (oh, yes, that happens here on DK).  And that could lead the women to choose to create a post where they feel safer to open up.

          So, I'm willing to cut these women some slack.  Let them rant and vent in safety for a while.

          I think it is just a natural process.  We should be able to be patient and let the emotional processing continue through the diaries.  Some of us obviously need this right now.

          Understanding is limited by perspective. Perspective is limited by experience. America is a great place to live but it limits our ability to understand.

          by CindyV on Sat May 31, 2014 at 10:31:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agree with that CindyV, and said the same myself (0+ / 0-)

            in a comment last night. I do get that part of it. I don't have a need or desire to participate in the emotional processing or women-only discussions myself, but I do understand and agree with just letting it be, as I suggested last night to the diarist who challenged the STFU dairies.

            I also understand and resonate with the feelings of those who are upset about the Shut the Fuck Up message here on Daily Kos. And I still don't feel that it's "effective" for creating positive change -- but obviously not every diary or discussion has that as the goal, and I get that too.

            I was also enlightened quite a bit by reading the current rec list diary explaining the "hashtag support group" and that this all came here from Twitter. As a non-Twitter user, I had no idea of the basis of these recent dairies here. I understand more what it's all about now. The twitter shorthand and culture is a barrier to understanding the context of all this for people who are not involved in it, so that's also perhaps part of the conflict that has flared up I think.

            •  Yes - Same for me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CS in AZ

              I haven't tried Twitter (not really my kind of thing).  But I do enjoy reading up on DK and learning what's up through this and other articles.

              P.S. I'm an Az girl (ok, maybe too old to be calling myself a girl but...), too.  It's a tough place to be a left-leaning person.  But oh well.

              Understanding is limited by perspective. Perspective is limited by experience. America is a great place to live but it limits our ability to understand.

              by CindyV on Sat May 31, 2014 at 11:34:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Who's the agent? (9+ / 0-)

    What is the agency doing the "dividing" and "conquering"?  If you liken it to the Tea Party critters, well, I wonder if folks with "skin in the game" (e.g., women concerned about still present and toxic sexism), might disagree.

    Or am I flatly missing an important point?  In other words, there is a gender specific quality to -- Limbaugh; gun violence; economic inequality; and so on.  Just as there are race and class specific inflections to these issues.  

    •  Start by reading about the southern strategy. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mconvente, jrand, Johnny Q

      And then big tobacco' s efforts to affect dialogue and how that method is now being used by Rove et al. (Including Koch and NRA)

      •  I know about the southern strategy. (5+ / 0-)

        And I've read The Merchants of Doubt.

        But what's the analogy?  That women (and men) decrying continued sexism -- sexist violence and belittlement -- is analogous to politicians manipulating white racist animosity?  So people arguing AGAINST sexism are akin to white politicians trying to STIR UP racism?  People arguing against sexism are akin to corporate execs trying to foment "skepticism" about established science?

        And with the southern strategy and tobacco industry, there are defined agents who propelled those things...Are you suggesting that political conservatives are now taking up the mantle of feminism so as secretly to "divide and conquer" the Left?

        See, the analogy to me is fuzzy -- or just mistaken.  I don't mean to be belligerent.  But I think the debate is well worth having.

      •  The history of divide and conquer (2+ / 0-)

        comes from the ruling class. They use class, race, patriarchy, sexism, to divide the working class to induce its members to fight amongst themselves rather than focusing on who the oppressors really are.

        When the oppressed wake up and fight back, that isn't divisive. Not joining them in solidarity, and not acknowledging the oppression, is divisive.

        I think you've got this a bit backwards. If we don't walk forward together, by mutual acknowledgment of our mutual oppression, we aren't going anywhere.

        "The political arena leaves one no alternative, one must either be a dunce or a rogue." Emma Goldman, Anarchism and Other Essays

        by ZhenRen on Sat May 31, 2014 at 12:30:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, this is important to bring up (5+ / 0-)

      The result is division, but not sure there is much conquering going on; our division is self-imposed.  Groups can self-collapse without any outside influence.  That's more of what I'm seeing here.

      A single issue, but two distinct methodologies about how to approach the issue (the conciliatory group vs. the harsh rhetoric group).  Combine stubbornness, a notion of complete truth, and the anonymity of the Internet, and what you have is a perfect recipe for online battles.  Happens all the time.

      So while there may not be a visible nefarious agent pulling strings (and perhaps there is one, maybe some aspects of the media fostering a misogynist society, etc.), group collapse can still happen.

      Horace's message is still very much needed, and one I agree with 100%.

      "Give me a lever long enough... and I shall move the world." - Archimedes

      by mconvente on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:46:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Horace, this was your most elegantly-concise (6+ / 0-)

    diary ever. Lovely writing and nice to read a wisp of inclusive sanity blowing through the other respective diaries decomposing on the Rec List.

    I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony Everything good a man can be, a dog already is. - pajoly

    by pajoly on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:31:36 AM PDT

  •  No (7+ / 0-)

    We need more arbitrary divisions!  Don't get me started on right-handed people...!

    Arrrr, the laws of science be a harsh mistress. -Bender B. Rodriguez

    by democracy inaction on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:33:25 AM PDT

  •  Reminds me of MLK. Jr. vs Malcolm X divide (6+ / 0-)

    Admittedly so, I am far from an expert on the nuances of each leader's movements; movements that had generally similar goals but approached them in vastly different methods.

    If you excuse the infinitesimally brief history lesson here, what we had was MLK, Jr. speaking of justice and unity through non-violence, whereas Malcolm X was much, much more aggressive with his rhetoric.  It's interesting that our nation today celebrates MLK, Jr. but considers Malcolm X to be a fringe militant, though there is probably a bit of truth to that.  But that's for another discussion.

    I allude to the above because I see that same divide with regard to women's issues, and also about white privilege in other diaries. One side wants to engage the less informed through conciliatory means, the other wants people to "STFU" or "shut up and listen".  I can see reasons for both, though I'm much more often in the MLK, Jr.-style camp when it comes to changing hearts and minds.

    When someone is accusatory and inflammatory toward me, I automatically put up a barrier to their message, even if I would end up agreeing with it.  Members of the "STFU" camp would suggest that that reflects poorly on myself, not the message itself; the "you've got hurt fee fees" argument.  Which I think is quite myopic.

    I see the "STFU" diaries as basically "I can't fucking take this anymore!" rants.  Sometimes those are necessary.  But overall, I have learned much more about these issues by reading experiences, as opposed to shouting matches.  

    All that said, I rec'd the STFU diaries because on this issue I think some people do need a dose of harsh reality, but people have to understand that it will turn off members based on the harsh rhetoric of the message itself.  Some here really get pissed off when people mention such a thing, but they are just out of touch with reality.

    "Give me a lever long enough... and I shall move the world." - Archimedes

    by mconvente on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:40:45 AM PDT

  •  and as has been said by others (10+ / 0-)

    there is no "battle of the sexes"

    the battle lines are not divided by sex

    the battle is between those who want respect and equality for women and those who don't, and both sides of that battle include men and women

    Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
    DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
    Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat May 31, 2014 at 07:45:34 AM PDT

  •  Agreed, this is an "We're all in this together" (3+ / 0-)

    issue.

    I don't usually tout other diaries (and not my diaries), but I posted a conversation between mellenials that pivoted away from the pervasiveness of sexual harassment to how they interact with each other. For the most part, both men and women looked at relationships in a helpful, healthy way. You might want to check it out. It's a break from the STFU and womenspeak vs. menspeak point of view. Let the young instruct us.

    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never has and never will be. Thomas Jefferson

    by JDWolverton on Sat May 31, 2014 at 08:06:35 AM PDT

  •  This. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III
    we don't argue based on an abitrary gender division that is massively culturally influenced.
    and
    Males an females are socialized differently in this culture.
    Recd just for that.

    I'm not a social scientist so I won't try to begin to dissect how males and females are socialized in American culture to fill traditional roles, and the weaknesses and problems of that.

    But I do believe male and female identity is mostly socially generated.

    and this.

    instead of making action posts in order to ensure Not One More we are instead engaged in Pie.
    I can't speak for women, but men should be mentoring younger men to treat women with respect. Teaching them the rules. Teaching them to become good, functioning adults. That's one of our biggest roles in preventing sexual assault.

    Action. Not arguing on a blog. I think telling men to get the fuck out of the way is counterproductive. Don't we all want the same thing, to prevent the horrible crime of sexual assault from happening?

    Thanks for this diary.

  •  I agree, but (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Horace Boothroyd III, jrand

    I don't think it  hurts to get things off one's chest. I can't imagine people discussing things they care about without a little pie.
    But mainly I agree.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sat May 31, 2014 at 08:24:21 AM PDT

  •  Expressive... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme

    Some folks want to maintain that the STFU diaries are either (a) simply expressive, ways of venting and "getting things off one's chest"; or (b) counterproductive because they "alienate" people who otherwise might be persuaded.

    (a) Is demeaning and trivializes the very social conflict at issue, namely, sexism and the power relations of gender.  If you read those diaries, claims are being made that can be evaluated as true or false or well justified or not well justified.  To dismiss them as "emotional venting" is an evasion and is demeaning.

    (b) This is precisely akin to whites saying that, although I agree with the civil rights movement, them black folks are demanding too much, too soon, and in too belligerent a tone.  How is (b) it different from telling blacks to quit "playing the race card" and just get on board!  "I don't see color -- so quit talking about race!"

    In other words, anyone who is "turned off" by the STFU diaries, anyone who is "alienated," needs to take those diaries seriously.  It's a cliche (though true) to say that education usually hurts.  Education about things that matter usually involves discomfort.  (See Plato's Allegory of the Cave.)  Now, some propose that because it makes men, in particular, uncomfortable, people should stop talking about 'x' or be sure to talk about 'x' in a very civil, conciliatory tone.  But why?  If a claim has merit, and if there's an emotional blockage that prevents someone from appreciating the merit of the claim, that person is going to be uncomfortable -- and they should be.  

  •  Sour pie? (0+ / 0-)

    Does that mean a rhubarb?

    Bello ne credite, Americani; quidquid id est, timeo Republicanos et securitatem ferentes.

    by Sura 109 on Sat May 31, 2014 at 10:45:20 AM PDT

  •  Narcissism of small diferences (0+ / 0-)

    Oh you are a liberal me too.
    Oh you are a progressive me too.
    Oh you hold your nose and vote democratic me too
    ...
    Oh you voted for Joe Smith in the Prince Georges County democratic primary for dog catcher in 1992...DIE YOU BASTARD!

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