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I was given to understand that there were rules at this site. First and foremost, DBAD. Secondly, I believe I remember reading something about staying away from people you dislike.

So if you hate that other person, AVOID that person. Don't go into their diaries! Ignore their comments! Don't even acknowledge their existence! If you don't take my advice and feel compelled to remind that person that yes, you still hate him or her, then too bad. I'll zap. Furthermore, if someone uprates any of those comments, I will ZAP THEM TOO. I won't waste time with NRs. NRs take two clicks to make happen, and I'm not willing to devote more to this matter than the one second it takes to click on "ban".

There are no sacred cows. No one will receive leniency. I'm simply too busy with actual important shit, so don't test me.
kos-03/06/12

No sacred cows? Really?

Last weekend a front pager on this site went into a diary of a poster she dislikes for the sole purpose of smearing and maligning, and to defend and excuse the actions of another kosaack who had drunkenly entered the diary of another kossack he dislikes, where he wound up triggering and traumatizing a rape survivor and refused to leave. If she couldn't find it in her heart to support a fellow rape survivor, she could have at least had the basic human decency to stay away. If she felt she had something to say on the subject, why not write her own diary? She has a much larger following than triv33. No, the reason she came was to cast aspersions and add inflammatory invective. Does any reasonable person believe she didn't know what kind of hell would break loose after she made this comment?

And it went downhill from there.
This entire diary as some kind of trouncing of Zhen Rhen  - is a set up. Was he wrong to use prick as a response - yes. Was Escapee wrong to use it first - yes

The Sux/Rox divide and claiming Zhen Rhen is some kind of misogynist is ludicrous.

But this whole mishegoss has a history, dating back to the Ted Rall contretemps.  
This entire diary - extracting a heated exchange which was wrong from jump street is bogus.

So before y'all get to playing judge and jury - you need to understand what is happening here.

To'iban eshu and goodnight.

"If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition." Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon

by Denise Oliver Velez on Sun Jun 01, 2014 at 10:56:47 PM EDT

[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Bogus? A set up? That's incredible. And I do mean that. It would mean that triv33 would have had to know that ZhenRen was going drinking and was going to come looking for trouble, also that BoiseBlue was going to be posting a diary where she would finally feel comfortable enough to break a 30 year silence, and then somehow mind control ZhenRen into a diary of people he hasn't had a thing to do with for months. So, really, that's quite the trick, Professor.

Did you get called a nasty name? Yes you did. The people who did it and uprated it were punished harshly. Do I believe that you're a rape apologist? No. I believe you're something quite a bit worse, but then, I'm entitled to that. Comfort yourself with your shiny five bars and your front page berth.

As far as this site, its administration, and its rules? Do they apply to everyone or only the rank and file? Because if it's only the rank and file, you need a new motto for your masthead.

"As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us."

5:24 PM PT: I am logging out and will not be replying to any further comments. I have preserved the diary in the state I left it in.

Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 7:46 AM PT: I see many have come in the night to defend, excuse, and even justify their friend's atrocious behavior in triv's diary. And why is that? Because rules should not apply to her? Because she's been attacked by others so therefore triv deserved what Denise dished out? Because in the aftermath people have been less than kind? Not one of those things excuses her behavior towards triv. Not one.
 What I have not seen is one single call from any of you for a public apology. Clearly, you don't believe any rules or sanctions should be applied to her, and shockingly, you don't have the human decency to believe that at the very least she owes an apology. In public, the same way she deliberately smeared and shamed and cast doubt on a rape survivor.

Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 7:55 AM PT: Such fine people.
 I don't get it, and I don't fucking care. (15+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
i saw an old tree today, aitchdee, edwardssl, Lost and Found, Catte Nappe, doroma, kalmoth, poco, SoCalSal, middleagedhousewife, AnnetteK, Onomastic, allergywoman, missLotus, Brit

No, you don't get it. More sympathy for the person who came here in the middle of the night to defend the woman who smeared a fellow rape survivor, than they ever had for triv33.

Because to them, she's a real person, even though her own words tell you she's a persona here, the responsive comments of support reflexively dismiss this as trauma. There's no excuse for a man to harass a woman, is there? I guess that depends, doesn't it?

But because a front pager condemned triv33 as bogus and reduced her to to a non-person in her petty blog war the majority of you fail to see her as a human being at all.

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Comment Preferences

  •  A word about triggers... (42+ / 0-)

    triggers are very personal things. Triggers are something that takes the person back to the event, they can set off a flood of emotion, flashbacks, nightmares....and nobody can say what what another victim's trigger may be.

    Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

    by gem56 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:03:46 PM PDT

  •  No sacred cows... (26+ / 0-)

    If I, or anyone, told a rape survivor that the diary recounting her nightmare was "bogus,"  I would be fortunate to only be sanctioned with TimeOut. Most likely, I would be gone for good. I would deserve it. Not that there's any chance that would ever happen, no matter the history, no matter the bad blood, no matter the backstory. I have a functioning sense of right and wrong.

    Triv is a dear friend, not only on DKos. It's not in my power to let this go unless she asks me to. I didn't know what to do though; a private message I sent to Markos about this horrifying episode has gone unanswered. I'm glad to see this diary. I hope some members of DKos admin will see fit to comment in it.

    Fascism in the mirror is nearer than it appears.

    by PhilJD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:09:50 PM PDT

  •  This has been going on for years. (15+ / 0-)

    Special rules, special people.

    LaEscapee: "I'm a Saltine American."

    by psychodrew on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:10:45 PM PDT

    •  Let's see if the people (10+ / 0-)

      using socks at the Helpdesk have the nerve to show up and repeat their lies under their real usernames.

      LaEscapee: "I'm a Saltine American."

      by psychodrew on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:15:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TFinSF, doroma, howarddream, fcvaguy, aitchdee

        Let's see if those two lie about me again.

        Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

        by Mike S on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:19:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's all about you, Mike. (7+ / 0-)

          Even though you weren't mentioned at all in the current helpdesk thread that's being referred to, above.

          The individuals posting under fake names in that current thread are taking the side opposite, so they aren't the two people you're thinking of.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

          by DeadHead on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:11:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  do you do anything but fight in dead threads? (9+ / 0-)

            Why the hell are you here because I haven't seen a positive action yet....

            I just went back a hundred comments and every one
            I opened was either a pie fight or bragging about pie fighting...

            Mike S has been slandered repeatedly by the pair who both should have been shown the door a long damn time ago.  Why they weren't I don't know but at least the vitriol and nastiness finally caught up to that pair ....
            Maybe we'll see yours soon...

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:47:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Um, I hate to break to you, but... (7+ / 0-)

              I was in this diary from nearly the beginning.

              If you actually looked at timestamps, this would be clear.

              If anyone is dead-threading, it's you, considering the fact that this reply of yours comes about 17 hours after the diary was posted, compared to the one of mine you're whining about, which came one hour after the diary was posted.

              Anything else you'd like to be wrong about?




              Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

              by DeadHead on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 11:06:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not wrong about shit. I just chose this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Brit

                one to reply to....there were newer, I just was fed up by the time I got down to this dreck...

                I haven't seen a hidden comment pie fight in months that you haven't been asses and elbows into...you know it, the rest of the blog knows it and admin knows it.....It's really not something to be proud of though you seem to be.  You also didn't bother to refute that the great majority of your comments are exactly as noted....

                Blog warrior 2nd class reporting for duty  Sir!

                Why they choose to allow people like you to keep being complete dickheads I'm not too sure except you are careful to keep your blog warrioring to stuff safely out of immediate sight for the most part.

                But seeing ek and tmc  finally get nailed after their years long spew of dreck gives me hope for the future......

                I know you can't help yourself so feel free to have the last comment, I won't be bothering with this one any more....

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:30:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  please don't dignify anything these heartless (10+ / 0-)

        people have to say with an answer.

        Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

        by gem56 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:20:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  ord avg guy suggested something like this (5+ / 0-)

      sort of, anyway...

      "You really want an answer? Post A diary. Title it: Dkos Sanctions?"

      although the tenor of this particular diary isn't as neutral as what ord had in mind.

      Dear NSA: I am only joking.

      by Shahryar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:55:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Probably because admin (7+ / 0-)

      was unresponsive. At least, that's what was indicated above.

      There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:10:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unresponsive about what??? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aitchdee, duhban

        I'm sort of amazed by the reactions to these NRs and bannings. The admins have always made it clear they don't owe anyone anything in terms of explanations or reasons.

        I was banned for 18 months. I know what I did. I didn't start countless help desk trash threads whining and complaining and screaming for justice. I took my lumps. And eventually I did what I needed to do. I apologized without qualification and was let back in. Thats the way it works.

        And, all the bullshit about front pager exceptionalism is exactly that .... bullshit. Ask Armando.

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:56:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps if the lumps were dealt out more evenly (7+ / 0-)

          there would be less complaint.

          Also, I don't know what led to your banning, but I'll bet it wasn't anything as bad as telling a rape survivor that her story was a bogus set-up to, essentially, entrap a man into acting badly.

          There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 01:31:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what enttitled arrogant bullshit (0+ / 0-)

            Der Weg ist das Ziel

            by duhban on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:59:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And you pretty much just proved the point. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gem56, PhilJD, CenPhx, Johnny Q
              •  actually I am a walking talking example (0+ / 0-)

                of how uneven things are given that a number of the people tangentially related to this have been allowed to stalk, harrass and bully me for over a year. Not that I am unique in that with those people whom seem to only be able to behave like assholes.

                Enough with the excuses no one made LaEscapee write a borderline defense of rapists. No one made LaEsapee recomend two of the most horrible and blatant lies I've seen. No one made LaEscapee behave like such a 'dick' that he had multiple time outs and many many warnings. All in all he had his chances and blew them clean out of the water.

                I doubt you or your group will accept that. The lot of you are too busy being self entitled, self righteous and convinced that some how the man that stated outright being shaken by finding out your partner was almost assaulted made you not a real man.

                The only sympathy I have for this is triv whom became a football to further the grudges of a small huandful on this site. The rest of it is just the same old entitled bullshit from the same old people.

                Der Weg ist das Ziel

                by duhban on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:55:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's what annoys me so much about your stance. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CenPhx, PhilJD

                  I've followed some of the stuff you're talking about regarding your treatment, and I think you've been treated shamefully. I doubt you'd know it, but I've defended you against some of that stalking behavior more than once. Your comments in this thread, however, are fully in support of an abuser. One would think that you of all people would behave differently.

                  I'm a suxxer, for what it's worth, with little patience and even less respect for most of the roxxers. That's not what this diary is about, though. It's about the absolutely vile way a rape survivor was treated by a Front Pager, and it's about the way the FPer's fan club insists on supporting her no matter what. Even more specifically, it's about the fact that anybody else would have been summarily banned for blaming the rape victim that way. Since it was one of Kos's precious front pagers, though, it's nothing but crickets.

                  •  being utterly serious here and hopefully clear (0+ / 0-)

                    I said when this all started that ZhenRen owes Triv an apology. I meant it when I said it and I still mean it.

                    I also though having looked at what was said when know that Triv walked into the middle of some 'fuck yous' and some absolutely appalling comments by LaEscapee with what at first could have been  taken as a glib remark. Hindsight shows that's not the case which is why ZR owes Triv an apology. However I think a lot of people are forgetting what LaEscapee was saying before that about how ZR wasn't a 'real man' for being upset about how his partner was almost assaulted or any of the other slimy things LaEscapee said. Or for that matter his whole diary which was a borderline defense of this 'real man' bullshit that has been floating around here to some extent or another for the past couple weeks.

                    And you know quite honestly nothing ZR said validated him being accused of being a rapist by themomcat or ek. Further while I don't precisely agree with Denise's defense of ZR there's nothing in that that justified her being called a "rapist apologist" by people that have hated her for as long as I have been here and from what I have been told for for longer than that. I think that MB (one of the admins) having only one comment in that entire exchange and having it be in defense of Denise being called that speaks volumes as to what the admins thought about that.

                    I really don't give a fuck about 'suxxors' and 'roxxers' IndieGuy I never really have. You have your opinion and you have just as much right to it as I have to mine. And who knows? You might be right. What I do object to is bullying and harassment and all the other trollish behaviour that many of those that proudly proclaim to be 'suxxors' dish out because they're so freaken self entitled and arrogant that they think they can do whatever they want.

                    I also object to anyone trashing another for baring their soul. That's despicable but the other 'crime' that Denise is being accused of happened because Triv than wrote a diary called "Women hurting other Women". Really? I mean I'll grant you readily that Triv was almost certainly very very hurt by what happened but I fail to see how that diary helped. Denise objected and to be truthful I'm not sure how much I agree with her objections. But I do understand many of her arguments including how perplexing it was that Triv was defending a man (LaEscapee) who was trivalizing sexual assault for reasons  that seemed to be simply because of past grudges). I mean seriously go read LaEscapee's diary, go read his comments they're quite vile in his typical passive aggressive way of 'how close can I dance to the line'.

                    I hope that helps because this isn't a simple situation. I'm sorry Triv was hurt. I'm sorry ZR said things he shouldn't have . I also understand why though ZR did say it in that moment. Should that moment never have occurred? Maybe but then again the truth is I'm biased about the people involved and not in a good way(and to be clear me and ZR do not agree on much and have often argued quite pointedly). And then certain people decided to use it as a blunt weapon against people they've had grudges against for years. It backfired big time in their faces. I hope Triv and Denise can come to some conclusion on this for both their sakes.

                    That's the best I got. Sorry for the novel.

                    Der Weg ist das Ziel

                    by duhban on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 09:42:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Fight! Fight! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gooserock, phenry, gjohnsit, doroma

    #YESALLWOMEN #NOTALLMEN

    The only thing that hasn't happened yet is the diary titled: STFU, IT'S AN ELECTION YEAR!

    Look, I tried to be reasonable...

    by campionrules on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:13:18 PM PDT

    •  Should Pick Up After Labor Day nt (6+ / 0-)

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:18:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The conversation moved on to #notallwomen (18+ / 0-)

      At least one front pager, with the tacit support of another, has made it clear that not all women deserve respect.

      ProTip - the people who like to play PVP MMORPG's often see this site as one.

      by JesseCW on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:19:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Class privilege. (15+ / 0-)

        It's a problem that doesn't get enough attention here.

        LaEscapee: "I'm a Saltine American."

        by psychodrew on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:24:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That is true. (9+ / 0-)

        Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

        by gooderservice on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:51:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm tired of this, Jesse. Aren't you? (9+ / 0-)

        You and I should touch base sometime soon.

        There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:12:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Do the women who claimed to be raped by Assange (0+ / 0-)

        deserve respect? Because, there's ample evidence on DailyKoS that they have not, some of it pretty ugly, and some if rec'ced by some folks that would embarrass you to see.. Are our standards, values and ethics situational?

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 04:22:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you so mired in grotesque hatred and (5+ / 3-)

          an extreme desire to turn every incident you encounter into a white-collar backstabbing that you are utterly without any ability at all to talk about the facts of the matter at hand?

          Are you going SO far in your pathetic Elfling-supported trolling (given that we've all seen the rules she'll bend for fellow affluent white children of extreme economic privilege) that you're now going to pretend that anyone accusing Assange of rape came here to share her story and found herself savagely attacked?

          And that front pagers joined in to kick her while she was down?

          Even Raptavio could see right from wrong here.  You've displayed with this comment that the very concept of right or wrong is beyond you, and that you begin and end with "me and mine".

          ProTip - the people who like to play PVP MMORPG's often see this site as one.

          by JesseCW on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 07:42:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All your venom aside Jesse (0+ / 0-)

            I can point to several comments in the diaries about Assange and the women who accused him of rape where you mocked those women and the seriousness and even veracity of their allegations.

            Just a sample. Look at your comments in this diary, and peoples' reaction to them.

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            And there's a lot more comments, in a lot more diaries by a lot more people who would now be embarrassed to see them.

            Where was your respect and empathy for THOSE women?

            Situational ethics, situational values, situational morals. Packs, loyalty and all that bullshit.

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 07:49:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I understand you'd rather talk about ANYTHING (5+ / 0-)

              else but the topic of this diary.

              I understand that this is purely a game to you.  I understand that there is nothing honest or genuine about any interaction you have here and that you've got no goal other than to score some sort of "Points".

              I understand that you've spent a lot of time mining, and that you were salivating with glee as you came across what you believed to be "Ammunition" for your private war against me.

              But all you've done now is what Zen did - drag your private war into a diary you wanted to derail.

              And you don't even have the thin excuse that your sorry ass is drunk.

              If you think that you can bully me by threatening to hound me with ancient comments and harass me, you've got another thing coming. I'm just not built to bow to privileged soft-handed people who have never done an honest days work.

              You are the second most dishonest person frequenting this site.  From dishonest about why you got banned to dishonesty about your reasons for defending assaults on women sharing trauma.

              But then, we all know why.

              We've seen what economic class of people it is you've got an issue with.

              ProTip - the people who like to play PVP MMORPG's often see this site as one.

              by JesseCW on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:10:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I did not mine that comment (0+ / 0-)

                as I made clear in another comment, PhilJD mined it, ironically in an attempt to claim "rape apologist" had been used before without sanction. The context of that discussion showed how many in this community did not respect, and in fact ridiculed and demeaned the women who accused Assange of rape. You were one of them.

                I'm just not built to bow to privileged soft-handed people who have never done an honest days work.
                trying to out me again Jesse? How is it that you know so much about me? I've never discussed what I do for a living, or my net worth or my color on this blog. How is it that you know all this?

                and now my banning. The admins know why I got banned. You pretend to know why I got banned. They are not the same. But, thanks for bringing it up. When I did get banned, I didn't start countless help desk threads, whining, crying, moaning, ad infinitum. I did not demand that the admins explain my banning or that i had a right to a public discussion of my ban. And, after 18 months, I asked for reinstatement, acknowledging my errors and committed to not repeat them. I've been on probation ever since.

                I never claimed any entitlement, or right for anything you or others here are claiming for those sanctioned over the past week.

                And, I've not personally attacked you whatsoever as you have here with me.

                dishonesty about your reasons for defending assaults on women sharing trauma.
                The comments speak for themselves. Unlike you, I did not post a SINGLE comment in any of the diaries over the past week. Not one.  Nor did I post any comments (unlike you) in any of the diaries ridiculing the women who accused Assange of rape.

                Situational ethics, situational values, situational morals. Packs, groups, and all that.

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:34:36 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Hey Jesse (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aitchdee
            (given that we've all seen the rules she'll bend for fellow affluent white children of extreme economic privilege)
            Is this some sort of outing? Or do you have me confused with someone else?

            What does my affluence or lack thereof or my whiteness or blackness or my economic status have to do with this?

            And, what insight do you have into those private matters?

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:05:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Are you so desperate to try to get me banned that (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gem56, Johnny Q, IndieGuy

              you're now going to pretend that you've been in any way "outed"??

              You have one (one) reason for entering this diary.

              You're hoping you can get someone banned.

              You're fucking transparent.

              ProTip - the people who like to play PVP MMORPG's often see this site as one.

              by JesseCW on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:12:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  are you not accountable for what you say? (0+ / 0-)

                as we all are? Stop the personal attacks and answer the question please. How do you know I'm white collar? or what my race is? or my net worth? or that I have a relationship with elfling?

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:16:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  topic of the diary or leave. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  IndieGuy

                  Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

                  by gem56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:16:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The top of this thread (0+ / 0-)

                    is a comment that claims not all women deserve respect. I pointed out an example where many in this community did not believe the women who accused Assange of rape deserved respect.

                    This particular commenter chose to jump in an attack me with an attempted outing (which you uprated). I believe I have a right to react to that.

                    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                    by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:22:06 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I see. You've been busy. (5+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PhilJD, kbman, aliasalias, IndieGuy, CenPhx

                      Perhaps you could take a moment to respond to my earlier comment.

                      Twenty four comments (0+ / 0-)
                      Are you satisfied? Have you defended the indefensible enough now, or do you have more?

                      Please explain exactly why triv33 deserved what Denise said to her. Exactly how it's justifiable to call an account of a rape BOGUS. Defend calling a chance encounter that there's no way in hell triv could have seen coming and then turned into a horrific exchange a set up. Do that, I cannot wait to hear it.

                      Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

                      by gem56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 11:08:51 AM EDT

                      [ Parent | Reply to This ]

                      http://www.dailykos.com/...

                      I find your behavior here reprehensible. You may be in an exchange with another poster now, but the balance of your time has been spent defending. Answer my questions or leave.

                      Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

                      by gem56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:28:33 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  explain how your friend's comment (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PhilJD, aliasalias, IndieGuy

              that deliberately hurt triv is justified and why she does not owe a public apology or leave.

              Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

              by gem56 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:15:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Obvious muckraker is obvious. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo

              And the tactics are pathetic.

              Enjoy your crusade.

              The Third Way ain't My Way!

              by JVolvo on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 03:38:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  This one I'm going to HR. For the direct insult (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aitchdee, fcvaguy, AnnetteK, Rei

            to somebody who isn't even in the thread

            your pathetic Elfling-supported trolling (given that we've all seen the rules she'll bend for fellow affluent white children of extreme economic privilege)
            Since the author of the diary recced it, I suppose it can't be called as threadjacking, but you're really reaching far beyond the purview of the original fight.

            At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

            by serendipityisabitch on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:41:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, the irony, it burns! NT (0+ / 0-)

        All women deserve respect! Excepting, of course, those who make accusations against men I like, who are thus CLEARLY just lying sluts trying to set up an innocent man, even if every single level of the judicial system of two different countries says otherwise.

        The day I'll consider justice blind is the day that a rape defendant's claim of "She consented to the sex" is treated by the same legal standards as a robbery defendant's claim of "He consented to give me the money": as an affirmative defense.

        by Rei on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 07:21:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You'll have to wait another 6 months or so (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      campionrules, 3goldens

      But your waiting will pay off, because it will happen.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:26:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We're all equal here on dkos. . . . Although so... (8+ / 0-)

    We're all equal here on dkos.

    .

    .

    .

    Although some May be more equal than others.

    ---

  •  I used to wonder (4+ / 0-)

    why people didn't seem more sympathetic when I whine about how unfairly I get treated sometimes.

    Then I stopped wondering.

    Now I just try not to whine about how unfairly I get treated sometimes.

  •  Don't want to pick on just the FP (20+ / 0-)

    there is also this comment questioning triv's motive:

    I deeply resent the diarist reducing all our pain -- pain she and I and so many others here have expressed -- to a divisive tool.
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    and this one:

    using their personal stories of pain to drive wedges between groups of people.
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    I'm not sure why these comments were allowed to fly freely with no consequence, if kos' edict really and truly applies to everyone.

    If there was consequence, I think it would be good for triv to be made aware of it.

    I'm going to go now. It would be good if this could be a real conversation and not a free for all but I have my doubts that's even possible here.

  •  Imagine the shit storm... (15+ / 0-)

    ...that would be unleashed if Denise were officially (deservedly) and publicly sanctioned.  That's exactly what the admin(s) did when they turned a blind eye to her infraction -- to her deliberate infraction.  It was a simple, practical cost benefit analysis.  Bottom line, there would have been a massive exodous from which this site would have never recovered.  Simple as that.  Denise is more than a Front Pager -- she has a massive, cohesive following on this site.  A following which would abandon this site, and that isn't going to happen if he admins have anything to say or do about it.  No way.

    The 'pawns' were sacrificed...those who remain now have this episode to ponder as a cautionary example of how 'rule-breakers' are dealt with.  This is precisely the type of 'justice' that is meted out in the general Democratic power establishment -- the little people suffer the consequences, the powerful skate on by...because they can.

    Why on earth would any self-respecting individual remain here given the precedent that this incident has set?  Why?  If this site's mission is to advance some sort of Democratic agenda, but can't even uphold the underlying principles which it seeks to advance while doing so, what's the point of staying here?

    all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

    by 4kedtongue on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:48:45 PM PDT

    •  The last word on this ugly ugly episode (12+ / 0-)

      has yet to be written. I want to help write it. That's all that's keeping me around DKos.

      Fascism in the mirror is nearer than it appears.

      by PhilJD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:58:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Winners write the History, PhilJD. (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, psychodrew, gem56, poligirl, CenPhx

        Just ask Denise.  She's written contless diaries regarding history's perversions of reality.  

        I don't get the impression you fancy yourself a latter day Don Quixote.

        all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

        by 4kedtongue on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:02:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thats an honest acknowledgement (0+ / 0-)

        you're here only for the pie.

        The story might not end up the way you would hope or expect Phil. But, I would agree with one thing.... you are indeed helping write it.

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 06:21:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Plus 10 (7+ / 0-)

      Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

      by gooderservice on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:20:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You want to know why? (8+ / 0-)

      People are afraid of losing touch with the many cool people who write here whom they don't know IRL. They're afraid an exodus would sever those ties forever.

      There's too many cool people here--that keeps the other cool people here, like a magnet.

      For instance, I wouldn't want to lose touch altogether with you, even though we're not close. And on that topic, if you think you're going to abandon ship, please Kosmail me first!

      There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:26:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The idea of disengaging... (13+ / 0-)

        ...is anxiety inducing for some.  It's probably what keeps this blog populated -- not the politics, but the separation anxiety once relationships have been established.  But it's certainly not like breaking up with a boyfriend or quitting a job.  There are a million other ways to have an impact on politics and issues.

        I've take LONG hiatuses from here, and even when engaged, I've tended to keep my interactions in perspective.

        I respect a few (VERY few) people here.  Their integrity shines bright, and, surprisingly enough, I don't always agree with them politically -- as is true in my meat life relationships.  

        I've never really taken root here...neither a complaint nor a concern, just a fact.  There's a good reason I haven't -- because from the moment I discovered this site and decided to engage, there was an insidious current to get me to conform.  The site is rigged not to build consensus as much as it's meant to stifle dissent, or anything that questions the conventional mainstream Democratic orthodoxy.  

        If there aren't political scientists or psychologists studying this site, there should be.  It is the technological incarnation of Lord of the Flies / Animal Farm.  I enjoyed both of those books as an adolscent, but I'll be damned if I subject myself to their themes as an adult.  I'll leave it you to pin the fictional names to the participants here.

        all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

        by 4kedtongue on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:07:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've come to discover.... (0+ / 0-)

          that a large number if not the majority of diaries and comments posted here are not about political activism but rather about seeking self-validation and therapeutic support. I really have no problem with that either. It's a blog - not the battle plans for Normandy.

          Sometimes I'll skim through a "therapy" diary but I seldom comment because most either have a slant on facts or soon turn into a flame war. Some are just narcissistic diatribes. I don't really see much benefit to them except for the author.

          There are some that are asking for help or advice in a really concrete way and these are really good! Many here will spring forth with assistance or solid advice and followup to make sure the person having problems comes out of things ok and in a wonderful number of cases, that is what happens. That's one of the things that make this place great!

          The "I'm so great" and the extended "Woe is me" diaries I can do without. I should explain that the "Woe is me" category that I am talking about are the ones that go on and on about the problem and then when the offers for help or suggestions come pouring in, every one is dismissed as impractical or not proper for them because of..."woe is me..." You know the kind I'm talking about. What seems to begin as a valid request for help that I might consider donating to ends up being exposed as a narcissistic attention-getter.

          Other than that, I like the place...lol!

    •  You are correct. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo
  •  With so many women sharing their stories (10+ / 0-)

    It is a pretty emotionally charged atmosphere.
    Add to that the penchant for people to ssometimes take an opposing view of people they normally do without pausing to listen or fully comprehend and you have a recipe for disaster.
    Other than that no comment from me and I hope triv is doing okay.

    There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

    by Drewid on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:52:33 PM PDT

  •  This diary asks a simple straightforward question. (15+ / 0-)

    You'd think it would be equally simple for DKos admin to respond.

    In case there's doubt that they so-called rules are enforced to the benefit of the DKos "elite," consider this: This is the gchaucer comment that generated many of the NRs on the "rox" side: http://www.dailykos.com/.... Annette was missed, presumably an oversight; otherwise, everyone who tipped this comment is now NR. This includes an almost entirely innocent Kossack like The Marti, who is a generous person who tips a lot of comments. I doubt she gave this one a lot of thought. She tipped LaEscapee's reply as well. The chaucer comment that SHOULD have been used to gather names to sanction is this one: http://www.dailykos.com/... It's far nastier; it also was the comment that initiated all the ugliness... but it was tipped by Denise.

    Does anyone truly belive that DKos admin was unaware of the second comment I linked to? It seems far more likely they ignored it deliberately to protect Denise from sanction.

    Fascism in the mirror is nearer than it appears.

    by PhilJD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:55:32 PM PDT

    •  Especially when the Breakfast Club didn't (9+ / 0-)

      exist six months ago.  And if anyone (admins) would have taken the time to go back to What's Happening and see who tipped/recced that vs. The Breakfast Club, it's pretty easy to see who's who.

      Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

      by gooderservice on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:12:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That comment has nothing to do with (0+ / 0-)

      Zhen ren. That happened before all of Triv stuff. Please just stop.

      Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

      by freakofsociety on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:14:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Help me out with one thing here (7+ / 0-)

      Somehow I must have missed the introduction of the "NR." Does it mean that a user is no longer able to recommend or hide-rate comments, or is there something else to it?

      "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

      by Geenius at Wrok on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:28:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why do you feel entitled to a response? (0+ / 0-)

      I didn't get any response or rationale or otherwise for my banning? Why you do you feel entitled to a response for the banning of  your friends?

      And, it took 18 months before I received any consideration.

      Special rules for special people Phil?

      Honestly, you're so busy sticking your finger in other people's eyes, you're failing to do any introspection yourself. You made some pretty aggressive comments in those diaries and some pretty hideous recs. Frankly I'm surprised you weren't caught up in the sanctions because you should have been.

      And, you brought up a year old discussion to make a point - about "rapist apologist". But, it sort of blew up in your fact, because that discussion was about slut shaming the women who claimed Assange raped them. The people who rec'ced that slut shaming is a real eye opener and shows the depth of the hypocrisy involved in all of this. No comment Phil? It was your link.

      On DailyKoS amongst some of your fellow travelers, its not #YesAllWomen. its #YesSomeWomen.

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 06:27:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I never questioned triv's motives (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phenry, campionrules, TFinSF, doroma, askew

    and was glad to see that Zhen got a very extended time out but after years if watching two of the banned people viciously lie about people, use any and every slight to scream hypocricy  and do every single thing they whined about while acting as if they were victims I have no problem with their banning. Especially since they continued those lies in the help desk threads and elsewhere.

    I also don't think that Dee should have bothered posting in that thread but she too had to deal with those others vile people time and again as well. I won't accuse triv of using her pain as a bludgeon but the others most definately were.

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:01:23 PM PDT

  •  For fuck's sake. (19+ / 0-)

    Continuing this shit will not end well. For anybody.

    All this doing is perpetuating a lot of people's pain. This serves no useful purpose.

    I beg -- and I mean beg -- everyone of conscience to abandon this thread.

    This will be my only post here.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:11:08 PM PDT

  •  Good for you for writing this diary. (14+ / 0-)

    I'll bet big bucks it won't make a difference based on the people who were supportive and are now reccing hateful comments.

    You said what needed to be said.  But I'm positive it will fall on deaf ears... with the exception of more people getting banned or NRed.

    Saying good night.

    Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

    by gooderservice on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:21:14 PM PDT

  •  on the other hand, we're all human (0+ / 0-)

    there are times when people I agree with on a political level (e.g. against drones, against chained CPI, bankers writing the rules, etc.) say things that make me wince.

    Those comments might be ones I agree with but they're written in a style that's called "inartful" and are confrontational when they don't have to be.

    I consider those unforced errors. They don't convince anyone of anything and bring about anger.

    But I accept it because people make mistakes. Some mistakes are worse than others, sure, but we're all going to do it, sooner or later.

    Denise (the diary's about her, right?) makes her share of mistakes too, because she's a human being and that's what happens.

    As for action against her, I'm opposed to bannings and timeouts anyway so I'm not going to worry about it.

    Dear NSA: I am only joking.

    by Shahryar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:46:38 PM PDT

    •  I'll tell triv. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, Johnny Q, lostinamerica

      That yes, the people that got heated in their defense of you got banned, but shit happens. As for the woman who smeared you and did so deliberately? Let's not worry about it. She makes her share of mistakes. Oopsies. It's all good.

      Then again, triv spoke well of you and your mrs, I think I will not tell her.

      Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

      by gem56 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:51:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well I'd like to see people acknowledge when... (0+ / 0-)

        they make those mistakes. I don't really want to get into a complaint fest. What I personally think about this place (it's a joke now since it's a propaganda site and useless, in my opinion...since propaganda is easily seen through and anyway dKos is really bad at it) and/or Denise or any other front pager (well....never mind) is my own business.

        But I would like to see some responsibility taken for the divisiveness she spreads....or that anyone else spreads. I've stopped taking this site seriously because, as you know, it's really messed up.  

        triv knows how shaha and I feel. I think that part of this has already been dealt with. I'm hoping we can get to the root of the other problem ("I hate you", "no I hate you!") and that means, I think, keeping a level head, not demonizing anyone. Is it possible? I doubt it but it's always worth a try.

        Dear NSA: I am only joking.

        by Shahryar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:01:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  triv is a very forgiving person. (0+ / 0-)

          she forgives even those who, in my opinion, do not deserve it. But, at this point in time I do not not think it's a good idea to to pass that particular sentiment along. Yes, she's working on forgiveness, but I don't know how to tell her it's wrong to demonize the person who put actual effort into hurting you when you were down.

          Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

          by gem56 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:22:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Sure, but it didn't look like a mistake (11+ / 0-)

      You kind of have to go out of your way to declare that somebody's diary is essentially a trap set-up to snare one particular user, and when the diary in question is discussing the diarist's rape--well, shit.

      That seems like more than a mistake. And if I made a mistake like that, Jesus! I'd be apologizing like crazy.

      There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:29:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sometimes I hate humans. (14+ / 0-)

    Just stop with the infighting. I understand it is a bio psychological stimulant designed to foster unit cohesion. But it is undermining making more and better democrats.

    •  Thanks for your input, (8+ / 0-)

      How does a front-pager engaging in pie fight and sending a rape victim into a tailspin help make more and better democrats? That's not a trick question.

      Sling it well or don't sling it at all.

      by gem56 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:01:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you Horace (3+ / 0-)

      I completely agree.

      Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

      by freakofsociety on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:21:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The divide can't be covered over. (14+ / 0-)

      As I think you know.

      But I think this may be the beginning of the end of the fight. One way or another, I think people are probably going to leave this site, mostly quietly, just as people are leaving the Democratic party, mostly quietly. The ones who leave are being replaced by Republicans who are OK with LGBT people and abortions. These are probably the last of the Republicans who don't foam at the mouth, crossing over party lines like Charlie Crist, because the Republican party has gotten too crazy. So we'll have the Crazy Party and the Big Money Party.

      Everybody who gives a shit about something other than preserving the facade of a democracy while extracting bucks from the lower echelons of society and moving them upward will leave both parties. Which is what's happening.

      There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:33:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The meta blogwar stuff is beyond tedious. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cks175, Susan from 29, fcvaguy, TomP

        Endlessly parsing one another's comments, up-rates and hide-rates for possible rule violations and then endlessly discussing whether or not this or that got the right punishment or non-punishment...makes for an unpleasant community.

        The Democratic Party isn't losing members or sympathizers. It's pretty static. And yes, it is top-down and controlled by the 1%. But regular people have a voice in it. The GOP is the 1%.

        Dailykos is a Democratic Party activist site. If you are, as I am, a true and committed leftist, then it's important to learn to modulate your voice so the powers that be here and in real life will still listen from time to time.

        They have the power and that ain't changing. If we flame out and give up our place at the table by screaming and misbehaving, then it's just gonna be a bunch of Democratic party hacks and 1%ers sitting around listening to each other say how great they all are. So try and stick it out.

      •  interesting answer to a question I've been mulling (6+ / 0-)

        right wing Democrat? Do not offend! Bend over backwards to coddle. Left wing Democrat? Belittle, mock, yell at, blame if things go badly.

        So I wondered, if the left gets fed up and abandons the Dems how will the party and their hacks replace those votes? I see you've come up with the answer. Thanks.

        Dear NSA: I am only joking.

        by Shahryar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:58:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  +4. This ^^^ Culture war issues are working (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kbman, SouthernLiberalinMD

        themselves out without DC 'leadership' (see all the state-level victories re same-sex marriage). Gen (whatever; 25 and younger) doesn't see the need for any potus to "evolve" on an issue.

        Dems will continue sucking to the center and the huge donor checks that used to go exclusively to the GOP.

        Repubs will continue spiraling into their racist, hating, male-dominated warmongering stew.

        Sane little people whose values don't waver will be left behind as our 'leaders' march to the right.

        So #notallwomen is cool here. Who knew? Ahh, the New Big Tent...

        by JVolvo on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 06:32:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  FUCK that. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, m16eib, poligirl, Johnny Q, gem56

      FUCK that.

  •  I have not commented on this site for 1.5 years. (11+ / 0-)

    I received the following admonition

    A message has been issued from site admin at Sun Oct 28 2012 01:41:31 GMT-0400 (EDT):
    If you're going to start uprating people claiming there's no difference between Obama and Romney, then this site isn't for you.
    in retaliation for uprating this comment
    I wish this diary had never... (11+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LaEscapee, Arcparser, The Walrus, Blue Neponset, gooderservice, shaharazade, BigAlinWashSt, poligirl, Nada Lemming, chipmo, priceman
    ... been pointed out to me. Because it just might get me banned, but I don't care.

    This is DISGUSTING! This "love letter" to a man who has done much the same evil as did George W. Bush. A man who has sold this country down the river to corporations and banksters as much as any Repub ever has.  How 'bout you ask the parents of kids murdered by Barack's drones how thrilled they are to have been the victims of an intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate man like Obama, rather than a crazy man like Bush (or maybe Romney after him)?  I bet they've got a love letter they'd like to write to Obama.

    Oh god... whatever. I'll stop now. Everyone proceed to hit me with the HR's now. And go ahead and ban me if you want, Markos (or whoever). I've been hear for 4 1/2 years, and I started out a staunch Obama supporter. But since then I've been called (along with most of my friends) every name in the book, up to and including racist and "nightrider".  Now because I see Obama for the fraud, the corporatist, the warmonger he is, I'm suddenly some terrible threat. Ok, fine.

    Do what you must, but I, for one, refuse to abandon my principles and my soul for this man.

    "Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media." -- Noam Chomsky

    by ratmach on Sat Oct 27, 2012 at 01:01:31 AM EDT"

    During my self-sustained but admin-suggested timeout, I have still been reading the site.  I watched the events summarized in this diary go down, and decided that acknowledging that fucking two-faced admonition was worth it if it could help illustrate the double standard.

    I doubt I'll be posting much more than this, considering another poster who gives me the fucking creeps recently came out of his own hiatus.  Just wanted to support my friend triv33, who was wronged.

  •  Can you not dredge this up please? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Le Champignon, cks175, doroma

    n/t

    Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

    by freakofsociety on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:03:36 PM PDT

  •  Rec'ing even though, at this point (10+ / 0-)

    I think a rec might trigger an NR at least. Frankly, at this point, I just don't know, as, for instance, corvo got NR'd after the triv diary debacle, and as far as I can tell, he hadn't done anything except be there.

    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:07:58 PM PDT

    •  I am rec'ing also knowing (12+ / 0-)

      that my rec may get me NR'd too. For weeks, I have been walking on eggs here at dkos due to all the meta flareups and seeing who got banned versus who has been allowed to skate with just an NR.  The reason I am recommending this diary is that I think it is time we were able to discuss this issue and if recommending this diary is wrong, then so be it.  

      "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "...isn't the problem here that the government takes on, arbitrarily and without justification, an adversarial attitude towards its citizenry?" ~ SouthernLiberalinMD

      by gulfgal98 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:37:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is going to cause another (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Le Champignon, raptavio, doroma

    shitstorm. And get more people in trouble. This needed to be dropped. People are healing. I am getting off of this site. I am not participating in any of this. This should not have been posted.

    Obama is the most progressive president in my lifetime.

    by freakofsociety on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:20:22 PM PDT

  •  Meh... n/t (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doroma

    Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

    by cks175 on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:30:11 PM PDT

  •  My goodness (0+ / 0-)

    I wish I knew how to post that popcorn eating gif

  •  Crashing gates good! (9+ / 0-)

    Defending gates better!

    All the world's a stage, the theater is on fire, and the lead actors are telling the audience that the smoke is a trick, they should stay seated an enjoy the show.

    by BruceMcF on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:43:23 PM PDT

  •  I've kinda read through the comments and I still (8+ / 0-)

    haven't a clue. Some kind of sux/rox thing and I think Deoliver is on the rox side of things, but it might be the other way around. I'll go look for something else to read

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:49:03 PM PDT

  •  please give triv my best wishes... (14+ / 0-)

    for recovering from the personal assault that she received here from a variety of people.  sometimes this can be a really ugly place.

    i'm part of the 99% - america's largest minority

    by joe shikspack on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:37:33 PM PDT

  •  Triv, (14+ / 1-)

    i hope there is an avenue available for you to process these events.   i also hope that at some point in time you and Dee are able to have a private conversation that doesn't involve the entire blog.

    in the meantime, you are in my thoughts and prayers.

    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

    by kj in missouri on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:20:37 PM PDT

    •  kj... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD, gem56, IndieGuy

      ...I hope there's an avenue where you can tell Dee that she was wrong.  Completely, 100% WRONG.  I hope there's a way where you can tell her that her that a privileged position at The Daily Kos comes with responsibility: to advance a prgressive cause, even if it means pushing petty differences aside.  

      It's easy to put the weight of reconciliation on the agrieved party party -- Dee should know that.  I'll bet she does.  So should you.  Pray for Dee, and yourself.  Triv doesn't need your prayers.

      Amen.

      all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

      by 4kedtongue on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:45:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't you think that you've bashed her (13+ / 0-)

        enough? Almost a week now and you (pl) are still hammering at her even as you (pl) profess to be defending another woman.
        The hate for Denise is palpable.
        Everyone who cares about Denise has repeatedly acknowledge Triv's pain. Everyone. And yet you keep bashing a woman who has spent her life fighting on behalf of others.
        Even if you think that she did wrong in that one instance, where is your humanity? Where have you shown her one ounce of grace or compassion even as you demand it of her?
         

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:03:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ONE DAY JOAN. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IndieGuy

          Don't lecture me about bashing.  Check my comments and don't lump me in with whatever crew you think I might be carrying water for.

          Love you, but I won't stand for this.  

          BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!

          Won't stand for it, so don't ask me to.  Don't.

          Talk to Denise.  PERIOD.

          all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

          by 4kedtongue on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:09:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No, not everyone... (6+ / 0-)
          Everyone who cares about Denise has repeatedly acknowledge Triv's pain. Everyone.
          ...noticeably absent from that list is Denise, herself.

          Which is a big part of the reason why this hasn't been so easily "forgotten."

          I would hope you, as her friend, might point that out to her, since she's apparently having difficultly seeing it on her own.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

          by DeadHead on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:43:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Here is what bashing means: (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q, kbman, gem56, IndieGuy

          Calling the hurt and pain of a rape survivor "bogus."
          That is bashing, not to mention abusive. Not to mention that it was done publicly by a prominent person on the site. That goes beyond bashing and into an area called public humiliation, one of the worst forms of abuse.

          Telling the person who made that ugly comment in public that they should apologize in public, is not bashing. Not in any way shape or form.

          And it isn't hateful either.

          Your attacks on others, including me, are bashing, and do not change the fact that your friend was wrong to do what she did, and should apologize.

          Furthermore the hurtful comment that she made should have been sanctioned along with those who uprated it.

          I have not called for Denise to be banned. That is a lie, strange that you would lie about me in the same comment where you bashed me (you who are so against bashing) and accuse me of being a liar.
          there's a word for that

          God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

          by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:59:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I actually like you, JoanMar... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar

          ...and I'll miss you.

          Keep fighting!

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

          by 4kedtongue on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 04:44:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Whatever else (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kj in missouri, fcvaguy, aitchdee

      Kj, fuck anyone who could drop a hide one this.
      You don't deserve that.

      There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

      by Drewid on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 01:52:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Probably the most valuable advice given (4+ / 0-)

      in all these sad diaries:

      i also hope that at some point in time you and Dee are able to have a private conversation that doesn't involve the entire blog.
      Because, thats where it belongs for it to be of value and meaningful.

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:00:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The insult was public, an apology should be (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JayRaye, deedogg, Johnny Q, gem56, IndieGuy

      public, but after that, yes, a private coming together would be warranted.

  •  As this site slowly compacts from the weight of (0+ / 0-)

    its own self-regard . . .  .

    Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

    by oblomov on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:49:32 PM PDT

  •  I very much hope triv33 (7+ / 0-)

    is feeling better!  I think she is a very nice person.

    I hope she will return to Daily Kos. I'll miss her if she doesn't.

    I hate this whole fight. I do. It is one of the worst fights in a long time and that's when people get hurt.

  •  I have no pretensions that this or anything wil... (11+ / 0-)

    I have no pretensions that this or anything will change anything. Phil said it best. It brought out the worst and best in people. I see some are not through being assholes. Back to lurking.

  •  I support triv33 in this (12+ / 0-)

    and I think a lot of comments directed at her in that thread were absolutely bullshit.

    I hope she comes back. I will miss her voice, even if I didn't agree all of the time

  •  I think triv got shat on in that diary, (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbsoul, PhilJD, kbman, 3goldens, gem56, deedogg, JayRaye

    in LaEscapee's diary, and in this diary too, and I'm sorry I haven't been around to support her. There was a lot of really ugly ugly cruel stuff going down, and having looked at pieces of it I am truly stunned by its depths.

    That said, if we're going to take rape seriously, as much as I think that Denise Oliver Velez's comment deserved to be HRed, I think that ek hornbeck's comment did as well. ZhenRhen didn't belong in LaEscapee's diary and he should never have been uprated and anyone who did so deserves to be zapped, as does he, for just the reason gem56 notes, never mind the sheer ugliness of his comments. But I don't think that anyone was apologizing for a rapist.

    But let me be really clear. Just because I'm saying that about ek's comment doesn't mean that I think that there's equal blame to go around, because I don't. But the fact that the fallout is what it is demonstrates to me that there is no equity here. Given that it's Markos' blog, he's got the right to do that.  Given that the purported purpose of this blog is to promote more and better Democrats, I find that lack of equity and that shitty behavior really troubling.

    •  If rights have anything to do with (0+ / 0-)

      ethics or morality, then

      Given that it's Markos' blog, he's got the right to do that.
      no, he doesn't.  He has only a privilege conferred by property ownership, which we in our property-obsessed society confuse with a "right."

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 04:40:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  ..... (12+ / 0-)

    destroying humans

    "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

    by poligirl on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 07:52:35 PM PDT

    •  And still not one single word of compassion from (11+ / 0-)

      Denise to triv, such as, "triv, I am so sorry that you were so horribly raped, and at such a young age too."

      NOT ONE SINGLE WORD

      God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

      by JayRaye on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:07:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did you know that Denise has written about (14+ / 2-)

        her own violation on this site?
        Did you show ANY compassion for her?
        Come to think of it, when I wrote about what happened to me, I don't remember seeing you either. And you know what? It did not matter then, and it does not matter now that you weren't there.
        A rape is not a weapon to be used to bash your enemies over the head.

        You are about as transparent as  John McCain on a Sunday morning show.
        Give it up already. Stop!! And let the healing begin.

        Denise isn't going anywhere.
        Denise didn't not rape Triv.
        Denise is a warrior for women's and human rights.
        You don't like her? Fine. But please stop lying about her and her record. Please stop dragging her name in the mud. Your vicious campaign to get her banned is not working, will not work, and is not earning you any new friends. Please Stop!! You are not diminishing Denise with the lies and distortions and pettiness; rather you are diminishing yourselves. Please stop!
        Enough already!

        Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

        by JoanMar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:51:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  PsychoDrew, I have never whined about (7+ / 0-)

          a hr, but I would love for you to explain that one to me.
          This has gotten absolutely ridiculous.

          Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

          by JoanMar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:06:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm updating this comment (7+ / 0-)

          Because of the nonsense HR by Psychodrew.

          This revolution is not scheduled!

          by harrylimelives on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:08:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Last I checked, comments can't be edited. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gem56

            Knock yourself out, though. Maybe you'll succeed where many others have failed.

            If anyone can pull it off, it's you.

            :)




            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

            by DeadHead on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:09:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Look, Joan (12+ / 0-)

          Is it not possible that Denise's comment, on some level, hurt and offended triv33 deeply?

          Lets leave the "verbal rape" framing out of it. That is far too divisive. Let us also at least try to leave personal histories out of it, for at least one moment.

          Boiling triv33's experience down to a political vendetta is not a good thing to do, at all. I disagree with Denise's comment and, I, quite frankly, think it was horrible.

          Do I still think she is an absolutely awesome person? Yes. But look, awesome people do crappy things sometimes. In this case, I think Denise's comment was crappy and in bad taste, personally.

          To be clear, this is not an attack on her. Perhaps a judgement, a flawed one at that, one who was not here for the entire ZR controversy. But as an outside observer, I cannot help but notice it was a crappy thing to do, plain and simple.

          •  I appreciate your tone, RM. (12+ / 0-)

            It is possible that Triv was hurt by the comment. In fact, I take her word for it that she was hurt. And it is quite ok for her friends to want to defend her, but they have taken their defense to a level that makes it absolutely clear that this is not only about Triv. There seem to be a whole lot of history wrapped up in this outrage.
            To accuse a survivor of rape, a woman who has a public record of fighting and sacrificing for the least among us, to accuse such a person of "verbal rape" and of being a "rape apologist" is just ugly and wrong.
            And on top of all that, what makes it abundantly clear that this is not all that's it's cracked up to be, is the response to anyone who dares to defend Denise.
            I have never seen anything like this on DKos in all my years here.

            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

            by JoanMar on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:40:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree, the hurt extends in all directions (13+ / 0-)

              The environment at dkos should be one of safety and trust for everyone to be able to tell their personal stories without those stories being used against them.

              Everyone has the right not to have their humanity or intentions questions. Everyone has the right to make a mistake or two, be allowed a bad comment, a bad day. Everyone is expected to realize when a remark they made hurt another individual, took away their humanity, or hurt the overall discourse here at dkos. We have a responsibility to each other to ensure and environment of safety for survivors to share their stories free from the fear of being critiqued and picked apart at every turn.

              And you know what, on this issue, factions be damned. I know what is right in my heart, and so does everybody else. This hurt shouldn't be here. There were lines crossed in that diary that should never be crossed. And community trust suffered.

              Dkos has been here before (anyone remember He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named :ahem: I mean The Nephew?). Hopefully, we will learn from our mistakes this time.

              •  thank you Rexy (7+ / 0-)

                Those are my thoughts. I remember the Nephew ordeal. Back then, a very nice kossack was seriously hurt to the point of being hospitalized.

                I'm also hoping we will learn. Here we are 3 years later with another kossack (triv33) badly hurting. I've gotten to know triv33 a little better and she is very nice.

                What happens here can very seriously affect us. In fact, not recently but twice in 4 years something happened at Daily Kos that brought on a mental health issue I have and caused me hurt. I know what it feels like. When in a place of great pain, we all react in our way. It doesn't always make sense to observers, esp. when it is outside their own experience.  

                We have a hurting community member (triv33). This is a time for us all to help. To to help no questions asked.

                 

            •  Joan, no one who has come to Denise's (16+ / 0-)

              defense in this comment thread has directly responded to the crux of the diary, which are Denise's own words:

              This entire diary [triv33's] - extracting a heated exchange which was wrong from jump street is bogus.
              and Denise's refusal, to date, to retract that hurtful accusation (let alone apologize for it).

              While others who were caught up in the ensuing mess were sanctioned, there has not been a hint from admin that Denise's behavior was likewise objectionable - hence the feeling being expressed here that she is above the rules.

              I am one of the 8% who refuses to validate HRC's cynical decision to consign thousands of innocent Iraqis to death in order to score political points at home. Per kos, then, I am a "hater." So be it.

              by WisePiper on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 02:19:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Piper, can you point to where the admins have ever (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                duhban, Brit

                sanctioned anyone for accusing someone of dishonest argument? Not shilling, or sock puppetry but simply an accusation of dishonest argument?

                Nothing human is alien to me.

                by WB Reeves on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:09:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Triv33 wrote a gut wrenching diary in which (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JayRaye, IndieGuy, gem56, PhilJD, Johnny Q

                  she expressed how hurtful was Zhen Rhen's blogging-while-drinking comments, then revealed in detail an horrific personal story, believing our community was a safe place to do so.

                  In waltzes Denise to discount triv33's trauma, and label her personal story a bogus ploy to score points in the sux/rox debate.

                  This goes far beyond a "dishonest argument." Her comment was callous and shameful. No, I don't recall a single instance when a Front Pager was called out for this kind of behavior. If ever there was a time to do so, however, this would certainly be it.

                  I am one of the 8% who refuses to validate HRC's cynical decision to consign thousands of innocent Iraqis to death in order to score political points at home. Per kos, then, I am a "hater." So be it.

                  by WisePiper on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 06:17:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wonder what would have happened had (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    IndieGuy, gem56, PhilJD, Johnny Q, orestes1963

                    one of the lowly done to Denise what Denise did to triv,...I can only just imagine the storm that would ensue, and the charges of "you just hate Denise etc etc etc"

                    Hypocrisy, it's on the menu at Daily Kos.

                    God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                    by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 07:04:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, from what I've seen, not much. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JoanMar, Wordsinthewind, Brit

                      This kind of thing happens all the time around here. As I've said elsewhere, I've witnessed it and experienced so often that I've lost count. I've never seen anyone receive a admin sanction for it.

                      If it had been some nobody like me, rather than DOV, I doubt people would still be talking about it.

                      Nothing human is alien to me.

                      by WB Reeves on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 09:03:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Your being disingenuous (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        PhilJD

                        You know very well that in the diary where Denise discussed her own rape, had anyone trivialized her pain, there would have been hell to pay (and rightfully so).

                        But triv is a nobody at Daily Kos and Denise is a somebody, so it doesn't matter if Denise bullies triv. And Denise must not be confronted about her treatment of triv, oh no, not allowed.

                        Talk about your elitism.

                        God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                        by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 09:15:15 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  PS, but never mind (0+ / 0-)

                          This is the sort of nonsense I've learned to expect from you.

                          God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                          by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 09:16:41 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Nobody said you couldn't confront DOV about what (0+ / 0-)

                            she actually wrote. She questioned Triv's good faith and sincerity in writing the diary.

                            It was the diary that she described as a "set up" and "bogus" not anything outside of that diary. I disagree with her characterizations because I don't support making such accusations without solid proof.

                            That's what she did and she can be legitimately criticized for it but claiming that she was characterizing anything but the diary is simply not accurate.

                            I regret that you would consider this distinction to be "nonsense".

                            Given what I've seen here, were the positions reversed, there would be no shortage people prepared to take sides against DOV as well as to defend her.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 10:03:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  did anyone go into to her diary and make such an (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            ugly hurtful statement?

                            Umm, no.

                            And no one that I know on my supposed "side" would do such thing.

                            It takes a bully to do such thing. And bullying of a rape survivor as she is telling her story is something that should be sanctioned. I've lost a lot of respect for you, that you think that sort of behavior is not bullying.

                            But the more I see of the sort of comments that you uprate, the less surprised I am.

                            Whatever, I no longer care what you think about anything.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 05:05:00 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you don't care, then you needn't reply (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            As matter of fact, you haven't replied to anything I actually raised, you've just switched to saying that DOV shouldn't have gone into the diary in the first place.

                            The difference between that and my saying that DOV shouldn't have said what she said is so small as to be indistinguishable.

                            Apparently this general agreement is less important to you than pursuing a campaign of vilification.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 01:42:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh yeah poor DOV she is soooooo (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            vilified,

                            she insults a rape victim and stubbornly refuses to apologize but she is the one being vilified.

                            Not just vilified by a

                            Campaign of Vilification

                            that is simply laughable.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 03:17:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  DOV is a rape survivor as well (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            Lot's of people have no trouble insulting her, even as they are shocked, shocked, that DOV could be insulting to Triv.

                            My support for rape survivors isn't conditional on who they may be.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 03:52:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Maybe not, but DOV's support for her fellow (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            rape survivor is conditional. She proved that by her treatment of triv.

                            Denise is a rape survivor who insulted another rape survivor who was in pain at the time. She didn't just discount triv's diary, she discounted triv's expression of hurt. Perhaps you don't understand how hurtful it is to a rape survivor to have their pain discounted. And that is what Denise did to triv.

                            That Denise is a rape survivor herself makes what she did to triv worse, not better.

                            But perhaps a man might not understand that.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 09:42:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What I understand is that you want to give (0+ / 0-)

                            Triv every consideration because she is a rape survivor but you refuse to give DOV so much as the benefit of a doubt, even though she is rape survivor herself.

                            Do you recall what the atmosphere was like on this site in the week prior to the altercation?

                            Do you think DOV was immune to the stress and anxiety that atmosphere engendered?

                            Do you think any rape survivor here could have been immune to that?

                            Sorry but your support for rape survivors seems a bit particular to me.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 10:41:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No one forced DOV to go into triv's diary and (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            insult her. She had the option of staying out of that diary.

                            DOV is responsible for her own actions.

                            What she did to triv was deliberate and cruel, there is no excuse for that.

                            If stress was the cause of what she did to triv, then why can't she admit that and apologize?

                            Your inability to see that triv deserves an apology seems particular to me.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 04:36:38 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  PS I am also a rape survivor (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            So now, according to your theory, I get to say or do any hurtful thing to anybody, and no one should confront me on it.

                            Umm...no.

                            Please do not demean us rape survivors. We are still adults to be held accountable when we say hurtful things espcially to hurting people.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 05:04:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just bizarre (0+ / 0-)

                            Your the one arguing for blanket deference, not me. I think you deserve consideration for your horrific experience. I don't believe that extends to insulating you or anyone from the rough and tumble of debate on other subjects. That goes for both DOV and Triv as well.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 08:54:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think your false equivalence (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            is just bizarre.

                            The insult which discounted triv's expression of pain, coupled with defending the man who mocked triv's story of rape as she was telling it goes well beyond normal rough and tumble.

                            But whatever WB I see that, for whatever reason, your own deference to the front page perhaps, you will defend this abuse of triv no matter what.

                            Which tells me a lot about you.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 10:09:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Excuse me but I read that thread (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            and your characterization is both one sided and inaccurate, as have been a number of your other assertions.

                            That tells me a lot about you.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 02:47:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I never said that Triv didn't deserve an apology (0+ / 0-)

                            That's an invention on your part.

                            I can't give her that apology though and a forced apology is worthless.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 08:57:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And confronting her ugly treatment of triv (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            is not the same as insulting her.

                            Honestly who do you think she is that she cannot be confronted for her treatment of triv?

                            She and her friends have no problem confronting people who they believe have mistreated them.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 09:50:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So says the man who was the first to rec (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            this vile hateful comment:

                            Did you know that Denise has written about (14+ / 2-)
                            Recommended by:
                            WB Reeves, harrylimelives, Le Champignon, fcvaguy, ExpatGirl, kj in missouri, ord avg guy, TomP, aitchdee, kishik, askew, FrankAletha, phenry, duhban
                            Hidden by:
                            psychodrew, poligirl
                            her own violation on this site?
                            Did you show ANY compassion for her?
                            Come to think of it, when I wrote about what happened to me, I don't remember seeing you either. And you know what? It did not matter then, and it does not matter now that you weren't there.
                            A rape is not a weapon to be used to bash your enemies over the head.

                            You are about as transparent as  John McCain on a Sunday morning show.
                            Give it up already. Stop!! And let the healing begin.

                            Denise isn't going anywhere.
                            Denise didn't not rape Triv.
                            Denise is a warrior for women's and human rights.
                            You don't like her? Fine. But please stop lying about her and her record. Please stop dragging her name in the mud. Your vicious campaign to get her banned is not working, will not work, and is not earning you any new friends. Please Stop!! You are not diminishing Denise with the lies and distortions and pettiness; rather you are diminishing yourselves. Please stop!
                            Enough already!

                            Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

                            by JoanMar on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:51:50 AM CDT

                            [ Parent | Reply to This ]

                            But that's fine WB, you can rec any insulting comment that you please, won't change the fact that Denise bullied triv and should apologize.

                            You simply lack the courage to tell her so. Much safer to rec an insult made against a less important member of DK.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 03:29:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've stated my criticism of DOV in multiple posts (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar

                            Too bad you couldn't be bothered to check on that before asserting otherwise. I'd have expected better research considering the excellence of your Labor History diaries.

                            As for the "vile and hateful" comment, it was in response to this:

                            And still not one single word of compassion from (11+ / 0-)

                            Denise to triv, such as, "triv, I am so sorry that you were so horribly raped, and at such a young age too."

                            NOT ONE SINGLE WORD

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:07:20 AM EDT

                            So you are the one who decided that attacking others for their ostensible lack of compassion was fair game but it's "vile and hateful" if someone turns the accusation back on you?

                             

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 04:12:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  oh.. so you can show me where Denise has (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kbman, corvo

                            given one single word of compassion to triv since she came into the diary where triv was vulnerable and bullied her?

                            If so, I would love to see it.

                            My comment above is a simple statement of fact.

                            Denise had not shown triv one single word of compassion when I made that statement, and she still hasn't.

                            But sure, right, pointing that out that fact makes the vile attack on me justified, whatever WB.

                            The more I see of you, the less respect I have of you.

                            You simply lack the courage to confront Denise for what she did to triv.

                            It takes courage to stand up to a bully, and that will never be you.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 05:04:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And further more now that you give this bogus (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kbman, corvo

                            reason for recing that comment, I have even less respect for you than I had before.

                            Pointing out someone's bullying of a person in pain and then the hurtful uncompassionate response toward the person afterward does not warrant the trashing of the one who points out the bullying behavior. Joan trashed me because she lacks the courage to tell her friend that what she did was very wrong and she should apologize.

                            But you know that full well, you're just trying to cover own self because you lack that same courage.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 05:20:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  First off I don't agree with the characterization (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar

                            of bullying. DOV didn't even address Triv directly, anymore than she made any reference to Triv's personal story. Her comment was addressed to the readers of the thread and concerned only her opinion of the diary. If that's "bullying", any critical comment would qualify as bullying.

                            I disagreed with her characterizations of "set up" and "bogus" because I thought Triv was sincere, even if her diary wasn't flawless in argument. Moreover, Zhen's behavior was indefensible, regardless of what one thought of the diary. I've said this repeatedly and I have said so directly to DOV. So your assumptions regarding this are entirely wrong.

                            Evidently this level of criticism isn't sufficient for you. So be it.

                            As for your opinion of me, growing up in the Jim Crow South, I learned long ago to live without the approval of others, so I'll survive.

                            For myself, I still admire your Labor History Diaries.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 06:30:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Calling the story of a rape survivor bogus (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kbman, corvo

                            is extremely hurtful, and Denise should know that even if you don't.

                            You are completely detached and don't really care how hurt triv is, just like Denise.

                            It's just a matter of opinions to you.

                            Yet you can rec an attack on me calling me a liar.

                            But you still cannot show me how my comment is a lie.

                            Please show me where Denise has expressed compassion for triv at anytime since she bullied triv while triv was in a vulnerable state. And since she learned how badly triv is doing.

                            Show me just on instance of compassion from Denise for triv since this entire episode started.

                            Just one.

                            And come to think of it, I've seen your opinions on the matter but I haven't seen any show of compassion from you for triv either.

                            And I don't expect I will, It's all just a game of words for you.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 06:40:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  She didn't call "the story of a rape survivor (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JoanMar, freakofsociety

                            bogus" Unless by "story" you mean Her diary concerning other women uprating Zhen Rhen. Is that what you're talking about? Or did you intend to imply something else?

                            Need I point out to you that if being a rape survivor entitles one to blanket protection from all hostile comment, that blanket would cover DOV as well?

                            As for my expressions of compassion for Triv, all you've proven is that you are as ignorant on this point as you were in accusing me of not being publicly critical of DOV.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 10:23:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "Vile and hateful?" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            I thought I knew something about the English Language; apparently, I thought wrong.
                            I'd rather think that "vile and hateful" is how you'd describe accusing a rape victim of "verbal rape" and of being a "rape apologist." To me, that's what's vile and hateful.
                            Just curious, if you thought my comment was "vile and hateful," why didn't you hr? You could have as you weren't having a conversation with me, I simply responded to a comment of yours.
                            You have a penchant to overstate your case, it seems.
                            Denise didn't attack Triv about what happened to her, no more than Zhen did. Neither of them would. (And I know that despite the fact that Zhen was your friend before he wasn't.)
                            "Attribute nobler motives to others."
                            Nothing that I've seen about Denise or Zhen suggests that they'd try to do anything other than support another rape victim. You know that, and your friends know that.
                            Our support for rape victims cuts across partisan, ideological, racial, and religious lines - whether it was the maid who accused DSK, or those who claimed they were victims of Assange, or Triv, or my landlady who was recently attacked. We support the weak and the powerless. Can your side say the same? Because if not, then this whole outrage rings hollow.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 06:47:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The situation would never BE reversed though. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JayRaye, corvo

                            I literally cannot conceive of anyone on the left side of the DKos aisle questioning the good faith of a rape survivor the way Denise Oliver Velez and her supporters did.

                            This wasn't just an "unfortunate" comment, to be weighed in the balance against her entire body of work. It was beyond any doubt the vilest thing I have ever experienced on this web site.

                            As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us.

                            by PhilJD on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 07:14:31 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Excuse me but I understand that DOV is a rape (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch, denig, doroma

                            survivor too.

                            People have been questioning her good faith non stop ever since her comment was posted. They were questioning it before that in other contexts.

                            So we don't need to pose a hypothetical. We know for a matter of fact that people have done and continue to do that which you can't conceive of.

                            Support and respect for the survivors of rape and sexual violence is not a game of political favoritism. It isn't something to be extended or withheld on the basis of personal or political likes and dislikes.

                            I do not approve of DOV questioning Triv's good faith in her diary concerning women uprating Zhen Rhen's behavior. I will not pretend that it was more than that, just as I won't pretend that this is a fight between people who respect and support rape survivors and those who don't. This is a sad and ugly episode focused on two women who are both rape survivors, not one.

                            Doing otherwise is, IMO, at best misguided. I certainly don't see how it in anyway serves to help Triv.  

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 02:29:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But only one of those two rape survivors (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo, PhilJD

                            went into the other's diary and used the word "bogus"

                            That one rape survivor would discount the amount of hurt that the other is feeling, makes the action worse and more hurtful.

                            In my own rape, it was the reaction of my best girl friend who discounted what I was feeling, that hurt as much. If not more, than the rape itself. It is certainly the pain that I remember the most.

                            You are a man and cannot understand how hurtful this is. And apparently you are unwilling to even try and understand it.

                            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 08:31:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Denise Oliver Velez was called a nasty name (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            corvo

                            and the Kossacks responsible have been sanctioned with the harshest penalty this site has in its arsenal.

                            Triv33 has been driven from DKos in tears; her real-life progress at putting her rape in the past has been set back, maybe for a long time... and the woman responsible received not even a slap on the wrist.

                            That users like you persist in trying to spin these two things as somehow equivalent, a both sides do it, everyone is hurting revisionism worthy of the Village at its lowest, tells us all we need to know about your moral compass.

                            As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us.

                            by PhilJD on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 05:37:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm afraid you're being less than accurate (6+ / 0-)

                    This is the diary that DOV's comments were directed to.

                    Triv didn't  then reveal "...in detail an horrific personal story, believing our community was a safe place to do so." within the body of the diary. That story was buried deep in a 500 plus comment thread. DOV wasn't addressing that comment at all, since it wasn't part of the diary.

                    So claiming that

                    In waltzes Denise to discount triv33's trauma, and label her personal story a bogus ploy to score points in the sux/rox debate.
                    is a fiction. There's nothing to indicate that DOV even read that comment prior to posting.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 09:40:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  The people who accused Denise of "verbal rape" (11+ / 0-)

              and of being a "rape apologist" have been banned, the harshest sanction this site has in its arsenal. The users who supported those comments have been sanctioned as well. Justice has triumphed, as such things are measured on DKos.

              Denise however can describe triv's diary recounting her rape as "bogus" and be uprated for it... and neither her nor her defenders received any sanction at all. The NRs that were issued were for uprates on a much more innocuous comment by gchaucer. They give the illusion of even-handedness without the substance.

              That discrepancy is the entire point of the present diary.

              As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us.

              by PhilJD on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:23:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  exactly (10+ / 0-)

                the "verbal rape" comment was rightfully HR'd, but sadly, Denise's ugly comment received many recs and no sanctions.

                Everyone who rec'd that comment should have been NR and Denise should have been given a warning, if not a time out, for writing it.

                God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

                by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 06:19:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're not being honest (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aitchdee, duhban, JoanMar, doroma

                the comment wasn't "rape apologist" or "verbal rape".

                It was "rapist apologist".

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 07:11:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not interested in parsing the meaning of "ist. (9+ / 0-)

                  Your efforts to spin this into a "both sides do it, everyone is hurting" charade worthy of the Village or the MSM are duly noted though.

                  The fact that you see Denise being called a nasty name on the one hand... and triv having her personal account of her horrific violation described as "bogus" on the other... as being somehow "equivalent" speaks very poorly of your own compassion and moral compass.

                  As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us.

                  by PhilJD on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 10:37:06 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Re-reading that (5+ / 0-)

                    I'm not sure 'bogus' applied to the recounting of the terrible rape, but the way that was quickly turned to be used as a weapon against Zhenrhen and his stupid remarks. Appropriate time out for him, and he seems to have apologised.

                    The comments here and on the help desk make it clear that this is turning into something else - a blog war. There's no moral highground to be had by either side on that: the original outrage has become instrumental.

                    But here is where the equivalence ends: those banned, however much they were valued by some as friends, did not write four or five highly detailed diaries a week for DKos. Other frontpagers who have been far more divisive than Dee (e.g BBB) have been given passes because of all the hard work they do for the site.

                    Until people can see that, they will be wasting their anger and energy in an asymmetric fight they can never win.

                    Dee might have stepped out of line. Nobody's perfect. But people can also see the over-reaction quite clearly.  

                    In terms of a vibrant, informative site, Kos and the admins have clearly made the logical decision who to keep and who to lose.

        •  HRd for the following: (10+ / 0-)

          insinuating that triv and her close friends are using rape as a weapon.

          A rape is not a weapon to be used to bash your enemies over the head.
          not everyone sees every diary and i would daresay that most of us obey kos's edict that if you don't like someone then stay out of their diaries, so it's not surprising that a whole heap of us had no idea she ever wrote that.

          she however, would have been better served to obey kos's edict like we do, but she just couldn't stay out and went in and insulted triv big time. but she doesn't have t obey kos's edict, she won't be sanctioned for her behavior, ever. a lot of us know that.

          this is a direct insult:

          You are about as transparent as  John McCain on a Sunday morning show.
          and this is lying:
          But please stop lying about her and her record. Please stop dragging her name in the mud.
          she has compassion or her friends and those who look up to her. the rest of us, well, just see her rant and her comment from the other day. having compassion for your friends is a natural thing; it takes courage and great empathy to have compassion for those you don't like. she does not have that quality whatsoever.

          and this:

          Your vicious campaign to get her banned is not working
          last i checked, NO ONE is calling for her banning. no one. you are making that shit up. sanctions do not equal banning.

          and this is concern trolling:

          You are not diminishing Denise with the lies and distortions and pettiness; rather you are diminishing yourselves.
          HRd

          "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

          by poligirl on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:38:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  rec for yet more HR abuse.. /nt (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          harrylimelives, TomP, duhban, JoanMar
        •  Except... (6+ / 0-)

          Unlike Denise, those you're questioning about their lack of equivalently-shown compassion didn't show up to dismiss your diaries as "bogus," now did they?




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

          by DeadHead on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:03:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  They can't quit. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kj in missouri, fcvaguy, duhban, JoanMar

          I am in the process pf removing all my ratings from this thread. I still don't doubt triv's feelings, she has the right to them, but this is sick.

          There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

          by Drewid on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 02:05:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Denise thrust herself into this awful situation, (14+ / 0-)

          Joan. No one forced her.

          She entered it on the dead wrong side... and made a very bad situation far worse. Even DKos admin saw that the man she defended needed to be removed from this site for an extended period.

          If someone had gone into Denise's diary describing Denise's own assault as "bogus," would you be asking for compassion for the asshole who did that? Because make no mistake, that is exactly, explicitly, what Denise did to triv33.

          Whether or not Denise has been unfairly attacked in the past on this site is profoundly besides the point here and now. Triv33 is gone and won't be back... and she's doing poorly in real life despite the efforts of her friends to rally around her. Denise Oliver Velez and the administration of DKos are directly responsible for her tailspin.

          That is what you're defending.

          As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us.

          by PhilJD on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:13:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  wow (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ord avg guy, aitchdee, JoanMar, doroma, Brit
            and she's doing poorly in real life despite the efforts of her friends to rally around her. Denise Oliver Velez and the administration of DKos are directly responsible for her tailspin.
            Seriously Phil? Thats a pretty malignant accusation. Denise and the admins are responsible for her doing poorly in real life???

            You're pouring gas on the fire Phil, in a very deliberate way.

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 07:16:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  yes, I do (14+ / 0-)

          And that only makes it worse that she

          has NOT ONE WORD OF COMPASSION TO GIVE TO TRIV, NOT ONE

          neither have you.

          I am also a rape survivor, and my very  first instinct when hearing of another woman's rape is to offer her support. And that would be regardless of any political difference I have with her.

          The very last thing I would do is call her story bogus.

          that  is what #yesallwomen means

          Many accomplishments, yes, that doesn't mean she can never do wrong.

          Why can't she bring herself to apologize and show triv some compassion?

          God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

          by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 06:10:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No. Just no. (15+ / 0-)

          I realize this comment comes in late but I only saw the diary this morning; I saw it because I've been worried about triv and, therefore, have read posts that might give me some sense of how she's doing.

          To the point, though: JayRaye is not "as transparent as John McCain on a Sunday morning show." In fact, JayRaye has spent a lifetime as "a warrior for women's and human rights"

          JayRaye has also "written about her own violation on this site."

          She also writes one of the best and most under-appreciated diary series this site has to offer.

          And my bet is that if this were a real life community and something bad happened to me, JayRaye would be the first one knocking on my door to offer whatever help she could.

          So, yes, "Please stop! Enough already!"

        •  Joan, (12+ / 0-)

          You ask:

          Did you know that Denise has written about her own violation on this site?
          Did you show ANY compassion for her?
          Come to think of it, when I wrote about what happened to me, I don't remember seeing you either. And you know what? It did not matter then, and it does not matter now that you weren't there.
          I for one, did not know that both you and Denise had written about such things, but if I had, and I were inclined to comment, it would most definitely have been to express compassion, sympathy and empathy.

          Like many women of a certain age, I too have a story, but I don't share it even with my closest friends.  After this latest nonsense on DKOS, I'd be hard pressed to talk about it any time soon on this, or any other blog or even outside a counselor's office or confessional booth.

          A rape is not a weapon to be used to bash your enemies over the head.
          I agree! So why did Denise dismiss Triv's story as "bogus" and a "set-up" to get ZR?  (A preposterous claim, at best!)

          If Denise could not bring herself to show Triv compassion, she could have at the very least stayed silent, rather than writing a comment in her diary, misrepresenting the how things went down, and for some reason sticking up for some old white guy oozing his male privilege all over the place?

          It's baffling!

          But this diary really isn't about whether Denise is compassionate or a warrior for women's rights, it's about the fact that a whole bunch of people were variously sanctioned (self included) whereas her behavior, which was definitely less than gracious, was allowed to stand without reproach or sanction.

          •  Exactly Angel. Denise Oliver Velez (7+ / 0-)

            is welcome to her "suspicions" about triv's motivations; maybe, in the narrow context of this poisonous faction-ridden blog, her "suspicions" felt well-founded to her. She was free to voice them privately to her friends.

            All they could ever be are "suspicions" though; she can never know for certain that her take was the correct one. There was always a real chance that triv's diary and story were entirely on the level, with no hidden agenda at all. There was always a real chance that a real woman would be badly hurt by Denise's casually barked-out "bogus."

            Denise had to know that her comment might do real harm, but she posted it anyway. That feels calculated to me, deliberately cruel; the amoral behavior of a woman who has allowed petty animosities on this blog to badly warp whatever abiding moral compass she once had.

            As in America, so on DKos. One lawbook for the privileged elite, another for the rest of us.

            by PhilJD on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 11:20:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I tried, (8+ / 0-)

        I really fucking did. No matter what triv owes no one an explanation nor apology. You don't really want Denise to break all this down, I hope she does. She made 1 comment, count it, 1. I don't agree with it, I jave said so. I still don't doubt triv at all. Flame me all you want, supporting triv does not equal bashing Dee, no matter how much you wish it did.

        There are no rules, only the illusion of rules.

        by Drewid on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 02:24:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You don't know me, so you don't know what I (6+ / 0-)

          "really want" or what I really "wish for."

          I have stated repeatedly that I would like to see Denise express at least ONE WORD of compassion for triv.

          And an apology for the "bogus" comment would be nice also.

          In a way you are right "I don't really want Denise to brak all this down."

          She has done quite enuf of that on this subject.

          A simple expression of compassion for triv and an apology would be nice however.

          And really? Denise is justified in doing what she did to triv because of all the good she has done in the past?

          How condescending is that to triv!!

          As if triv hasn't done enuf good in this world to deserve respect and compassion from Denise!!!

          Talk about your elitism!!

          God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

          by JayRaye on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 08:49:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  there's a special level of irony (0+ / 0-)

      in your posting of that.

      Der Weg ist das Ziel

      by duhban on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:39:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  #IStandWithTriv (15+ / 0-)

    And see the people who degraded her - and those who covered and/or endorsed those who degraded her - as what they are.

    True colors were already shown.

    And they will show again.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:03:50 AM PDT

  •  If you're going to write a provocative diary (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, duhban, doroma, AnnetteK

    you should take care that your claims are exactly correct and factual:

    The term used was not "rape apologist". It was "rapist apologist".

    Furthermore, you don't know why LE was banned. You're assuming it was for uprating that comment. That may not be the case. He had had a number of comments he himself had made that week which could be candidates or an accumulation of comments, one of which was calling Markos a "sexist pig".

    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

    by fcvaguy on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 04:10:37 AM PDT

  •  This entire episode is the saddest thing I have (12+ / 0-)

    experienced on this website. Why anyone would ever attempt to label another's most horrific experience as "bogus" baffles me. What was the intended reaction to the ugliest comment ever? How hard would it be for her to apologize? Not hard at all, it would actually be the "adult" thing to do. But no, double down, triple down and an army of defenders and still Denise is silent.

    "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." Edward R. Murrow

    by temptxan on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:05:35 AM PDT

    •  What are you talking about? (5+ / 0-)

      DOV was talking about Triv's diary calling out women for uprating Zhen Rhen.

      Surely you don't think that was Triv's "most horrendous experience?"

      Nothing human is alien to me.

      by WB Reeves on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:01:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yep. "bogus" referred to the meta diary (3+ / 0-)

        complaining about zhenren, not the original diary by triv and certainly not the account of the rape.

        I noticed the "migration" of the object of the "bogus" beginning immediately after DOV's posting.

        Retrospectives on 25th anniversary of Tiananmen at Chinafile.com

        by Inland on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 09:56:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I can understand, given what Triv has been through (0+ / 0-)

          that she might have taken it that way but I think it was clearly not DOV's intent or meaning.

          I didn't agree with what DOV said regarding the diary being "bogus" and "a set up." I think Triv was genuinely upset about Zhen's behavior and I think criticism of DOV on that score is legit.

          However, IMO, anyone who is encouraging Triv to believe that it was more than that, that it was a denial and trivialization of her horrific experience as a rape survivor, is not supporting her but exploiting her, regardless of what they tell themselves.  

          Nothing human is alien to me.

          by WB Reeves on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 11:45:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yep the diary is what Denise called bogus (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kbman, corvo, Lady Libertine

            I guess you think women are stupid and we don't know that. We are just irrational we just get angry for petty reasons.

            Tiv's diary was an expression of pain that women had supported ZR's callous reaction to hearing that she had been raped.

            Are you a rape survivor? Do you have any idea at all how hurtful it is see a man get support from women as he mocks your story of rape?

            Then she expresses her hurt and that expression of hurt gets called bogus, and again the abusive man is supported.  And by a fellow rape survivor.

            And you truly cannot see what a low blow that was from Denise?

            Or perhaps you just don't want to see.

            It's all just a game of words to you. Your lack of empathy is showing. As was Denise's in relation to triv, a fellow rape survivor which compounds the hurtfulness of what Denise did to triv.

            Now just suppose Denise had shown some true leadership as befits her front page status. Suppose she had told ZR to back off in no uncertain terms. Suppose she had asked those women (friends of hers) to remove their recs from ZR's comment and apologize to triv.

            triv would not now be in the state that she is in. And triv's diary would already be forgotten.

            God spare me the Heart to fight them... I'll fight the Pirates forever. -Mother Jones

            by JayRaye on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 10:21:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I expect a nasty diary as the reply (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deedogg, aliasalias, gem56, IndieGuy

    is that cynical of me? I'd like to see Denise apologize. I believe, instead, she'll "double down", taking it as an opportunity to divide...again.

    Dear NSA: I am only joking.

    by Shahryar on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:03:24 PM PDT

  •  {{{{TRIV}}}} {{{{DOV}}}} (0+ / 0-)

    it is a funny thing, how typing can sometime clarify one's thoughts and you end up not where you started. But we could all use a little mercy now.
    As for the rulez? Are they unfair and arbitrary? Yes,yes they are and I don't expect that will change.

    "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

    by tardis10 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 03:38:18 PM PDT

  •  536 comments? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Brit

    I thought this diary would fade. Emotions are raw and we would all do well to take a step back. I have been trying and while I have thrown out a few angry comments I want this issue here to just go away. It is probably obvious to most here that there are people in this thread that I simply don't like but I don't want to see any of you banned.

    Please everyone just chill for a few days. I will happily argue with you in the future but for now please stop.

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 11:29:49 PM PDT

  •  Hey Gem, you have participated a lot since (0+ / 0-)

    a lot of this stuff went down. I note that besides some activity in May, you hadbt posted in December. What's your background here and what has motivated you to take such a public and frequent stand, which is way out of character for this username?

    While you dream of Utopia, we're here on Earth, getting things done.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 02:04:29 PM PDT

  •  Hadnt* and since* (0+ / 0-)

    While you dream of Utopia, we're here on Earth, getting things done.

    by GoGoGoEverton on Sun Jun 08, 2014 at 02:07:29 PM PDT

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