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The thirds person killed by the Las Vegas shooters, has now been identified.  He was a man in Walmart who had a concealed carry permit.  I say "had" of course because before he could fire any shots he was shot dead:

Police say a shopper armed with a concealed weapon inside a Las Vegas Wal-Mart confronted an armed man who entered the store with his wife moments after the couple killed two officers in a nearby restaurant.

Assistant Sheriff Kevin McMahill said Monday that 31-year-old Joseph Wilcox of Las Vegas was in the checkout line when he saw Jerad Miller fire a shot and went to confront him.

Miller's wife, Amanda, pulled out a gun and shot Wilcox in the rib area. He collapsed and died.

McMahill says Wilcox wasn't able to fire any shots.

Sorry good guy.  Very sorry for you and your family.  Some are calling you a hero.  For myself, I wish you had left the store without confronting these terrorist murderers.  Because that's what they were.  They ambushed two police officers and then they ambushed you, as well:

Wilcox was legally carrying a concealed pistol. Wilcox was unaware that Amanda Miller, who was pushing a shopping cart, was involved in the incident and “lying in wait,” the official said.

She slipped behind Wilcox and shot him at close range.

“He had no idea the wife was walking behind him,” the police official said of the murdered man. “This guy (Wilcox) was not some idiot with a gun. To me, he was a hero. He was trying to stop an active shooter.”

Police said this morning that Wilcox was killed without firing a shot.

Your gun did not make you safer.  Maybe it gave you the idea that it did. I don't know.  But the best thing you could have done was leave the scene with your wife friend and let the police deal with these killers.  I regret that you did not.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I heard that at the press conference (9+ / 0-)

    The "good man with a gun" made himself a target when he went to confront the terrorists.

    I would put that under gun fail since he would still be alive if he had not had the gun or had not tried to use it the way he did.

    Newsstream's Smart TV News is designed to change the way we watch news. Please help support our crowd funding effort.

    by Tomtech on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 01:08:03 PM PDT

  •  The cops were good guys with guns too. (20+ / 0-)

    Another crazy connection: the female shooter listed her job as "head of the needlework department at Hobby Lobby."  

    It is ridiculous to pretend that firing teachers based on student test scores, starting charter schools, giving out vouchers or implementing merit pay will overcome the challenges facing a child living in poverty. -Jersey Jazzman

    by Desert Rose on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 01:18:49 PM PDT

  •  Stupid good guy with a gun is fracking (0+ / 0-)

    lucky he didn't hit other people. Hell get a great job in the KKK/NRA or evil Fixed news.

    He's another hellspawn ahole in public with a gun.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 01:45:08 PM PDT

    •  He was killed (6+ / 0-)

      before he fired a shot.  He won't be working for anyone anytime.

      "If you tell the truth, you'll eventually be found out." Mark Twain

      by Steven D on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 02:21:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Given that he died trying to stop a murderer (11+ / 0-)

      however unsuccessfully, we might want to refrain from mocking and cursing him.

      "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

      by lgmcp on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 02:30:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd go further (7+ / 0-)

        It may well be that the reason he is dead is precisely because he was being careful, and not being stupid with his gun.

        I'm pretty anti-gun, but unless something comes out of left field on this, this guy has my full support for his actions.

        •  Isn't that some irony. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ban nock, PurpleElectric
          It may well be that the reason he is dead is precisely because he was being careful, and not being stupid with his gun.
          I think I know what you are getting at... If wilcox had been reckless and started blasting away immediately, without regard to distance between him and jared and without regard to the people on the other side of jared, then jared's wife amanda may well have been unable to get behind wilcox.

          I suspect that wilcox would make the same choice, if he had to do it over again, but maybe would pay more attention to his surroundings.

          I haven't listened to any right wing gun podcasts in maybe a year, but I think I'm going to cave and check out what they are saying about this event.

          MLK Jr 1968 "Maybe we just have to admit that the day of violence is here, and maybe we have to just give up and let violence take its course. The nation won't listen to our voice - maybe it'll heed the voice of violence."

          by JayFromPA on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 07:31:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed (7+ / 0-)

      Good guy with gun could just as easily have killed a true innocent bystander had he fired his weapon.

      For that matter, how did he know the killer with a long rifle was not another good guy trying to protect the innocent after a public display of open carry?

      As Jon Stewart pointed out in his monologue last week, there would come a time when Open Carry would meet Stand Your Ground.

      This fella' who died yesterday is the first poignant example.

      In this shootout instance, Open Carry won.

      On the other hand, a person with pepper spray took down a mass murderer last week on a college campus.  No innocent bystanders were placed in harms way by that action.

      The good guy with a gun who died yesterday is a sad, and yet compelling, anecdote and reminder that:

      More guns = more death by gun.

      •  And took him down because the murderer had to (4+ / 0-)

        reload his shotgun. If his weapon of choice had been a street sweeper type, the brave good guy with pepper spray might not of got his chance.

        I'm sorry that this guy in VEgas got killed. But he thought he could make a difference because he had a gun. But there were two bad guys with guns to his good guy with a gun.

        Good, bad, victims or murderers, they are all dead because of GUNS.

      •  Because jared shot into the ceiling. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, Calamity Jean, Steven D

        Jared walked in some sort of short distance, pointed his rifle at the ceiling of the walmart, shot the ceiling and shouted for people to get out.

        Someone takes their rifle and shoots the ceiling while yelling for people to get out, that is clue #1 that they aren't a simple open-carrier.

        MLK Jr 1968 "Maybe we just have to admit that the day of violence is here, and maybe we have to just give up and let violence take its course. The nation won't listen to our voice - maybe it'll heed the voice of violence."

        by JayFromPA on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 07:26:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  On all the typical right wing blogs the stories... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FloridaSNMOM, coquiero

    On all the typical right wing blogs the stories and comments are all in line...hailing the man with a concealed handgun who confronted the male shooter as a hero...and spouting the usual talking points about how important it is the have armed citizens, "good guys" to stop these massacres (never mind he did not). First of all, it was brave of the man who was killed in Walmart to attempt to stop the other man with a gun, I won't disparage his character at all. He didn't know that the man who had just brandished a gun and fired a warning shot had a female accomplice right behind him...she killed him when he confronted the male shooter. I imagine in the heat of the moment the concealed wepon carrier was simply reacting and not thinking "strategy." If he wouldn't have approached him and instead shot him at a distance, his arm or leg in an attempt to stop him, who knows what may have happened....maybe the female shooter would have still shot at him or maybe she would have instinctively started to tend to her wounded accomplice...revealing herself. Who knows...what happened....happened. My point is that a brave man armed with pepper spray stopped a shooting rampage just the other day...but you won't read comments on right wing sites saying, "you know...civilians armed with guns may not really be so neccesary, it may not be the only way...I'm rethinking my position on guns in every hand." No...you read them downplaying that part of the incident..or worse.

    These two murderers were right wing conspiracy nuts who viewed the government as "Nazis","Fascists" and "Socialists" (the ignorance of them believing a person or entity can be all 3 of those is all too typical or their kind) and since President Obama was elected hate radio, Faux News and republican after republican has carelessly and ignorantly called the President and others not trapped in the same rage bubble, either explicitly or in so many words,all of those things. Will these media and political morons ever be held accountable for their inflammatory, often violent (not to mention totally senseless) rhetoric? These idiots casually compare everything they are (paid to be, essentially) against to slavery,rape, Nazi Germany, Fascism and Socialism....because they cannot discuss policy like gown ups, they have to incite, they need to promote fear..it's all their base can accept and it's all they have to offer.

    •  You wear a concealed weapon you are looking to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Steven D

      shoot someone!  Period.  I have asked people who carry guns to give me a scenario where they could help with that concealed gun.
      NONE have thought it out. They couldn't give me even ONE situation where a concealed weapon would help!

    •  Arm or leg is a bad idea. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, aliasalias
      If he wouldn't have approached him and instead shot him at a distance, his arm or leg in an attempt to stop him,
      Sending a bullet flying is an act of lethal force, full-stop no-disclaimers no-qualifiers no-exeptions period end-of-story.

      Exerting lethal force is only to be used as a last resort, full-stop no-disclaimers no-qualifiers no-exeptions period end-of-story.

      Sending a bullet flying into an arm or leg in an attempt to stop without undue injury is exerting deadly force when deadly force is not warranted.

      In other words, making a bullet fly through the air is so serious that there is no half-measure allowed. It is the concealed-carrier's "nuclear launch" so to speak - it it a point of no return that is to be avoided. That includes so-called "warning shots".

      That is the standard which people are supposed to maintain.

      Arms and legs are hard to hit. Arms and legs move around a lot. Attempting to shoot an arm or leg is begging to miss the target and then that flying bullet has gone off into the background - which is always considered a very bad thing. When nick meli at clackamas mall aimed at the rifle-shooting guy, nick specifically chose not to shoot because of the chance of missing the shooter and maybe hitting the people he saw in the background. Nick chose wisely. I have yet to see a layout of the area to be sure, but reports so far lead me to believe that people were likely between jared and the door, and thus probably would have been in the background if joe wilcox had fired. And arms and legs are hard to hit, because they are small and move around a lot.

      MLK Jr 1968 "Maybe we just have to admit that the day of violence is here, and maybe we have to just give up and let violence take its course. The nation won't listen to our voice - maybe it'll heed the voice of violence."

      by JayFromPA on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 07:23:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "if you're going to shoot you must shoot to kill" (0+ / 0-)

        is on a par with "the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".  It was not what law enforcement learned or practiced a few decades ago.  If you can safely shoot to neutralize or disarm, shooting to kill is wanton disregard for human life.

        •  Well, shoot to center of mass is standard now. (0+ / 0-)
          It was not what law enforcement learned or practiced a few decades ago.
          Center of mass is now the target that is taught.

          That's why the addition of tazers to the duty belt - because a gun is to be shot at center mass, and a flying bullet is ALWAYS an event of deadly force. Thus, if there is to be an attempt at taking a person alive they are to use the tazer.

          MLK Jr 1968 "Maybe we just have to admit that the day of violence is here, and maybe we have to just give up and let violence take its course. The nation won't listen to our voice - maybe it'll heed the voice of violence."

          by JayFromPA on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 10:30:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  He didn't know there were 2 and when he pulled (9+ / 0-)

    his gun the police didn't know there weren't 3.

    He got in a situation he didn't understand.

    At first the reports only said that he had a conceal carry permit. It took a while before it came out that the gun was no longer concealed.

    Don't send a teddy bear to the Martinez family, they don't want you to intrude on their grief - send a postcard to a politician Not One More

    by 88kathy on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 02:55:07 PM PDT

  •  I hate that this guy died (10+ / 0-)

    the way he did.

    I wish that he had run like everyone else.  He thought he was going to save people, but he didn't save anyone, and now his family has to deal with losing him.

    I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

    by coquiero on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 03:24:52 PM PDT

  •  He was a hero... (8+ / 0-)

    ....betrayed by NRA assurances that he could actually do much good in such a situation. No one told him how useless the "good man with a gun" usually turns out to be.

    He did his duty as he understood it. And the NRA has his blood on their hands for feeding him the line of bull that got him uselessly killed.

    This is the landscape that we understand, -
    And till the principle of things takes root,
    How shall examples move us from our calm?

    (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

    by sagesource on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 03:27:28 PM PDT

  •  Statistics vs. anecdotes. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, JayFromPA, Joy of Fishes, ban nock

    I get that most of us think it'd be better, at least most of the time, if guns were much, much harder to get.  I agree.  Frankly, I'm not afraid to say that yes, if it were me in charge, I would be "coming for your guns".  I don't want to live in an armed society.

    But: my position is based on averages.  There are always going to be specific cases where it turns out it was a good thing somebody had a gun.  Reasoning by anecdote gets us nowhere on this issue.

    It sounds like this particular gun-carrying citizen was trying to act with due care.  He could've just drawn and started blasting.  He got unlucky.  The same thing might've happened to a lone cop, suddenly thrust into the same situation.  If there had been no co-conspirator, this actually might've been a "gun success".

    It doesn't serve our cause to rationalize reasons why in every single case, people having guns makes it worse.  It's true on average, but not always true.

  •  Diarist has an error. " But the best thing you ... (0+ / 0-)

    Diarist has an error.

    " But the best thing you could have done was leave the scene with your wife "

    Joe Wilcox wasn't said to have been there with anyone, at least in any reporting I've seen. It was the Amanda wife that I have seen mentioned.

    •  Report I read (0+ / 0-)

      that he entered the store with his wife shortly after the shooters did.

      "If you tell the truth, you'll eventually be found out." Mark Twain

      by Steven D on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 06:43:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Okay (0+ / 0-)

      went back and checked the most recent stories.  They do not support my description of the event, so I will change the diary.

      It does say he was at Walmart with his friends, or a friend depending on the article.

      "If you tell the truth, you'll eventually be found out." Mark Twain

      by Steven D on Tue Jun 10, 2014 at 07:22:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Guy gives up his life to save others and gets (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kasoru, FrankRose

    dissed and second guessed by a bunch of keyboard experts. Makes me embarrassed to tell anyone I'm a liberal.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Mon Jun 09, 2014 at 08:14:59 PM PDT

  •  Honey Bunny and Pumpkin just being themselves. (0+ / 0-)

    It's the bland true story behind the Pulp Fiction love story. Cough.

    At least they had the decency to shoot themselves.

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