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"Let's be clear. McCain is there legitimately getting credit for being one of the advocates for the single biggest mistake the American government has ever made in foreign policy." (Former Rep. Barney Frank)


As an al-Qaeda-linked, Sunni army under the ISIS banner sweeps across Syria into the heart of Iraq and the US considers how it might effectively intervene, Sen. John McCain,  launched a broadside against the Obama administration from the Senate floor earlier yesterday. McCain demanded the immediate resignation of the entire White House national security team, advising Pres. Obama that he has been “ill served” by their advice and their decisions. McCain urged that anyone who declared the withdrawal from Iraq a good idea should be canned, which would (by inference0 include Obama himself. He suggested that Obama restore a Bush era Team to do it right.

In Greek Tragedy it is Hubris that lie at the heart of great failure and destruction. Hubris refers to extreme pride, overweening, arrogance and unwarranted self-confidence. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality. Sen McCain has long been the personification of Hubris.

October 18, 2001  McCain links anthrax threats in U.S. to Iraq. WRONG!

March 13, 2002 McCain predicts that in Post War Iraq will be grateful to the U.S. for its role as liberator. WRONG!

February 21, 2003 McCain explains how Iraq will pay for its post war recovery and development and will require no U.S. aid. The war will be brief with very limited U.S. losses and it will be conclusive. And Hannity confidently backs him up WRONG!

April 23, 2003 McCain claims that the Sunnis and the Shias have no history of conflict in Syria and will be able to get along in the post war. WRONG!


The Case for Blaming Bush: Open and Shut

1) The Bush administration fabricated a set of reasons and the evidence to support it to justify an invasion that destabilized the entire region.

2) The Bush administration began a war without a realistic strategic or tactical plan for the conduct of that war and it aftermath.

3) The Bush administration never understood how deep the rift was between Sunnis and Shiites, and how Christians and Kurds fit into that space between them.

4) The Bush administration did all of this to advance a geopolitical neocon agenda that in its desire to create an Islamic client state, secure oil resources and complete the so-called unfinished business of the Gulf War.

McCain in his speech on the Senate floor quotes from a New Yorker article making the point that the invasion of Iraq destabilized the country AND then he goes on to say that those who made decisions that did this should be accountable for them. Bizarrely, he is thinking of the "failure" of the White House to get an agreement that would have left significant U.S. forces in Iraq that would have U.S. Forces standing "with" Maliki's forces (who are deserting by the hundreds) today.

What he misses, and misses spectacularly, is that it is Bush foreign policy that created the mess and it was an Iraqi decision that left Maliki without U.S. support.

Yes, someone should be accountable. Bush, Cheney, Rusmfeld, Wolfowitz and warhawks like McCain who wanted a war in Iraq to "finish the business of the Gulf War"  and to make the most of the opportunity created by a war culture in the U.S. after 9/11 should be held accountable.

What about the "failure" of the Obama administration
to get a Status of Force Agreement.


Again, we begin with Bush.

In one of his final acts in office, President Bush in December of 2008 signed a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) with the Iraqi government that set the clock ticking on ending the war he’d launched in March of 2003. The SOFA provided a legal basis for the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq after the United Nations Security Council mandate for the occupation mission expired at the end of 2008. But it required that all U.S. forces be  gone from Iraq by January 1, 2012, unless the Iraqi government was willing to negotiate a new agreement that would extend their mandate. It was not what the Bush administration wanted but it was all they would get. They took it and handed that mess, among many, off to the Obama administration.

Middle East historian Juan Cole has noted, “Bush had to sign what the [Iraqi] parliament gave him or face the prospect that U.S. troops would have to leave by 31 December, 2008, something that would have been interpreted as a defeat… Bush and his generals clearly expected, however, that over time Washington would be able to wriggle out of the treaty and would find a way to keep a division or so in Iraq past that deadline.”

But as it turned out that extension would only be granted by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and the Parliamentary coalition he headed if Iraqi authority over U.S. troops was extended beyond the norms that were common in all such agreements.  The fact is that resistance in the Iraqi Parliament was so great that Maliki was unable/unwilling to challenge the leadership of opposition parties that wanted all U.S. forces gone or constrained by Iraqi legal oversight.

Ending the U.S. troop presence in Iraq was an overwhelmingly popular demand among Iraqis, and Maliki appears to have been unwilling to take the political risk of extending it as he moved to shut the Sunnis out of his government. While he was inclined to see a small number of American soldiers stay behind to continue mentoring Iraqi forces, the likes of Shi’ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, on whose support Maliki’s ruling coalition depended, were having none of it.

Even the Obama Administration’s plan to keep some 3,000 trainers behind failed because the Iraqis were unwilling to grant them the legal immunity from local prosecution that is common to SOF agreements in every country where U.S. forces are based. Iraq said to the U.S.: We do not need you.

The Bush legacy continues to grow. Like a cancer.

http://pjmedia.com/....

http://www.newyorker.com/....

http://world.time.com/....

Originally posted to murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 04:57 AM PDT.

Also republished by History for Kossacks.

Poll

How strong is the case that the current situation in Iraq is, in fact, "first, last and always George W. Bush's legacy?"

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| 383 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Somebody should gather up the "perpetraitors" (41+ / 0-)

    like Bush, Cheney, Wolfie, Rummy, and air-drop them into the middle of that mess...(walks away brushing hands off)...

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 05:12:44 AM PDT

  •  Shia / Sunni battles have been going for centuries (13+ / 0-)

    This is not a battle in which the US should become involved.

    •  But they did. (8+ / 0-)

      And then they re-elected the individuals who designed and executed the war crime.

      And they approved the expenditure of ten thousand king's ransoms to destroy the country.

      Now what?

      "Should not have become involved" is a rather pale way for those who committed the torture, rape, murder, and rapine to encapsulate their actions.

      Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

      by Yellow Canary on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 05:34:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who is "they" and who did they elect? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mithra666, phenry

        Seeking clarification before I respond.

        "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

        by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:05:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The they is US voters and Congress. n/t (0+ / 0-)
          •  Pretty much all of our US elites in various fields (2+ / 0-)

            Let's face it, people in any position of influence who stood up to the whole Global War on Terror narrative were few and far between.

            I'll never forget what an elderly lifelong German peace and ecology activist told me. Said that at the moment the war ended in 1945, he'd been a 12 year old Hitler Youth. In the 18 months that followed, he came to realize one very important thing:

            Every single one of the authority figures, role models, and media sources you trust can agree something is true and good. But it can still turn out to be a lie and evil.

            He never forgot that lesson, he said. People who speak for powerful institutions are in cahoots in ways an individual can't know about. You always have to question, probe in unorthodox ways, and resist.

            The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

            by lotlizard on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 10:51:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wonderful Point. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              silverfoxcruiser

              Remember Martin Niemoller? He would understand your point:

              "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Socialist.

              Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

              Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.

              Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

              ===========
              Niemöller in a post WWII interview was asked why he ever supported the Nazi Party, Niemöller replied:
                 I find myself wondering about that too. I wonder about it as much as I regret it. Still, it is true that Hitler betrayed me. I had an audience with him, as a representative of the Protestant Church, shortly before he became Chancellor, in 1932. Hitler promised me on his word of honor, to protect the Church, and not to issue any anti-Church laws. He also agreed not to allow pogroms against the Jews, assuring me as follows: "There will be restrictions against the Jews, but there will be no ghettos, no pogroms, in Germany."

                  I really believed, given the widespread anti-Semitism in Germany, at that time—that Jews should avoid aspiring to Government positions or seats in the Reichstag. There were many Jews, especially among the Zionists, who took a similar stand. Hitler's assurance satisfied me at the time. On the other hand, I hated the growing atheistic movement, which was fostered and promoted by the Social Democrats and the Communists. Their hostility toward the Church made me pin my hopes on Hitler for a while.

                  I am paying for that mistake now; and not me alone, but thousands of other persons like me.

              "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

              by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:22:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Got it and see your point. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            silverfoxcruiser

            "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

            by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:16:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Which is why a strongman like Hussein was (8+ / 0-)

      actually operating in our long term strategic interests.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:04:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mithra666, OhioNatureMom

        That was the Reagan´s WH line of though, interestingly enough we some of the same players that decades later decided that he was not.

      •  No... (7+ / 0-)

        I really dislike it when alleged Democrats and progressives all jump on this ridiculous bandwagon of "we should have just supported the dictator".  That's what got us into this mess - Reagan empowered Saddam and 30 years of brutality and sectarianism set the stage for all that followed.  We supported the dictator in Iran too, and look how that turned out.

        There is an implied racism in the idea that Arabs can only be ruled by force, by a strongman.  The problem is not Saddam's overthrow but why he was in power in the first place, the means employed to remove him, and all the horrible decisions the Bush Administration made afterwards.

        “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

        by ivorybill on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:45:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Seems to be going that way in Egypt, doesn't it? (0+ / 0-)

          U.S. policy is once again supporting a strongman regime in Egypt.

          That policy is cut from the same cloth as our support for brutal crackdowns by the hereditary clan dictators in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere in the Gulf.

          It's the same as it ever was since the Sykes–Picot Agreement. Lip service aside, genuine democracy and popular sovereignty in the Middle East is the absolute last thing the West wants.

          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

          by lotlizard on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:01:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again, I always ask for the imagined, practical (0+ / 0-)

            and real world alternatives. So, we do not back the military strongman.....ok, what then?

            "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

            by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:28:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's the same question that arises with respect to (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              silverfoxcruiser

              … Central and South America.

              A lot of people still argue that through the years, there was no practical alternative to supporting General Pinochet, Rios Montt, the Somoza clan, the Duvaliers, the torture-and-death-squad propagating School of the Americas (now WHINSEC), etc.

              Is it that hard to imagine the U.S. concretely supporting the growth of an empowered working class and middle class in developing countries?

              Is it that hard to imagine the U.S. helping democracy movements with infrastructure and intelligence? As opposed to funneling arms, money, tips on dissidents, and even killing lists to autocrats?

              Is it that hard to imagine the U.S. array of secret military and diplomatic assets being deployed so as to work on behalf of the common man and woman?

              Is it that hard to imagine the U.S. promoting a culture of civil society and equality?

              Instead it seems that U.S. elites now admire the Gulf, Saudi, or Brunei type of hereditary dictatorship. In any case a culture of clan monarchy, plutonomy, elite impunity, and even (in the case of the GOP) theocracy is being transplanted to the United States.

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 10:23:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Excellent and thought provoking... (0+ / 0-)

                I am archiving your response for future consideration, reflection and, likely, use.

                "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

                by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 07:02:20 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  This man has a lot of concrete suggestions to make (0+ / 0-)

              http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

              One very small start would be for U.S. media to stop disseminating, and for U.S. politicians to stop relying on, tendentious reporting on Middle Eastern societies by biased ignoramuses or shills on one or another royal payroll.

              Identify owners and vested interests behind Middle Eastern newspapers, TV stations, and media sites, particularly when quoting them.

              If U.S. media must report items like, "Saudi owned newspaper or TV station editorial says nice things about Saudi policy," at least don't keep concealing from readers or viewers that the media in question are, indeed, Saudi owned. Or controlled by the Kuwait Sovereign Investment Fund or whoever.

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 10:39:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Angry Arab News Service...most interesting (0+ / 0-)

                Thank you for this.

                As I walked through the site I found myself considering how thoroughly controlled U.S. Media is by big money/power interests and how wary I am of so many outlets.

                Same point in this case with the added caution that I do not have my own experience as a compass in ferreting out the liars.

                I will keep this in mind.

                "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

                by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 07:05:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Idealist and sounds good....let's be real... (0+ / 0-)

          Provide a formula by which there could have been a "stable" Iraq without the Baathists and strongmen?

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:27:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Bush allegedly didn'tknow a Shia from a Sunni (5+ / 0-)
  •  When war crimes are committed ... (15+ / 0-)

    ... and those with the legal and moral authority to bring the criminals to justice "look forward and not back", the consequences of their inaction is mixed with the consequences of the criminals' action.

    Obama could have helped this situation the day he was inaugurated.  He could have said, "The US does not engage in Aggressive War, and the perpetrators of that war crime must be brought to international justice".  That would have left Iraq to George Walker Bush and his puppeteers.  But, astride that hinge in history, Obama decided not to.  Iraq, ruined in a patent war crime by George Walker Bush, is now Obama's legacy as well.

    His actions do not rise to the level of criminality of his predecessor, but are still and forever horrific and irresponsible.

    Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

    by Yellow Canary on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 05:30:32 AM PDT

    •  Tease this out for me... (14+ / 0-)

      Let's be practical here. In what context does he do this, what action does he then call for, and what does that do to his incipient administration.

      You make a good point, but I see the pitfalls and wonder how he might have been moral and not hamstrung his administration from day one. Of course, we now know that the GOP had decided to do just that from day one, literally, on the day of his inauguration. Hindsight however is always 20/20.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:03:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Keep In Mind the Context is Most of Economic (5+ / 0-)

        ownership and most of its preferred political party intend to terminate this system of government and are at political, system-design-level war against the rest of us.

        There's just nothing about our system that's designed to cope with such a basic level of opposition to its entire conception.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:11:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  100% hamstrung... (5+ / 0-)

        leaving 40 million people without healthcare ins. (to name just one)

        And we all know how next-to-impossible congress made that, without war crimes trials.

        If we lust after prosecutions out of Obama's DoJ, maybe we should focus on Wall Street's Robber Barons.

        You're right. Iraq is the Bush Dynasty's Legacy, the immorality lies there.

        "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

        by Sybil Liberty on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:23:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and even in the Wall Street area... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Heart of the Rockies

          the path is not clear in a system where all of those in elected office are dependent on the monied classes.

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:34:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

            Still, I do love hearing Elizabeth Warren torment them repeatedly with the question. It will be interesting to see how far that takes her...

            "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

            by Sybil Liberty on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:41:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  She may have enough of a popular base to (0+ / 0-)

              persevere but for many pols that is not an option. Despite Cantor's lost this stat remains. In 94 percent of all elections, the candidate with the most money wins.

              "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

              by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:12:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Warren is proving herself a most excellent (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                silverfoxcruiser

                fundraiser. Populism is making a comeback on both the left and the right, which may account in part, for Cantor's defeat. (There have been a couple of diaries here on this) I feel we need to be concentrating on a "Wellstone/Warren" populist-agenda because a teabagger populist-agenda is just one more lunatic-agenda.  

                Warren down in TX, fundraising & stumping for Alison Grimes? A good sign.

                my 2 pennies

                "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

                by Sybil Liberty on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 08:09:51 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Tell me more about the Wellstone/Warren..... (0+ / 0-)

                  populist agenda. I am interested. You take on Warren is one with which I generally agree.

                  "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

                  by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 06:48:45 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  And more importantly (0+ / 0-)

            the whole problem with what was going on is that vast swathes of it were not criminal.

            It damn well should have been. But it wasn't. And you can't prosecute people for actions you don't like which were not in breach of any law.

            •  And for that we have to bow to the efforts of .... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              silverfoxcruiser

              Mr. Reagan, Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton, Mr. Bush and their Congresses. "It seemed like a good idea at the time" as one firewall after another was torn down in deregulation fever.

              "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

              by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:13:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  No republicans voted for the ACA anyway (0+ / 0-)

          So how would it be any different?

          The dems had a supermajority, or close enough.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:19:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You wouldn't be having congressional hearings (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            murphthesurf3

            on domestic issues, including healthcare reform, if you were prosecuting the insidious war crimes of the previous administration. The prosecution of bush/cheney war crimes, satisfying as that might have been, would have been a historical all-consuming shark-fest. Capitol Hill would have been in utter chaos for years. Nobody on the hill would have been thinking about the needs of the American people.

            Bush/Cheney destroyed their countries and ours. We all know it, a pound of flesh might be satisfying for awhile, but in the long run, not nearly as satisfying as ACA providing health care coverage to folks who've never had it before.

            "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

            by Sybil Liberty on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:41:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can do more than one thing at a time (0+ / 0-)

              You can in fact have hearing and push through a law at the same time. Just as important, prosecuting for war crimes, specifically torture, would not require hearings. The previous administration had admitted to using torture. They called it a different name, but they explained what they did and it was torture. So you can go after that without involving congress.

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:44:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Elizabeth de la Vega, former federal prosector (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Yellow Canary, murphthesurf3

                & author of US v Bush, on congressional hearings:

                [ ] The President (bush) will not be held accountable for misrepresenting the prewar intelligence unless and until Congress conducts hearings similar to the Watergate hearings. As yet, however, we seem painfully incapable of reaching that point. We are like inept tennis partners, collectively letting the ball slip by in the no-man's-land between the service line and the baseline, or in this case, between the legal and the political.

                Perhaps more important, however, is that, although the evidence of wrongdoing is overwhelming, the facts are so complicated -- far more so than those that prompted the Watergate hearings--that it's impossible to have a productive debate about them in the political sphere. Indeed, modern-day spin has vanquished substance so thoroughly that even the most well-grounded charge of deliberate deception is often considered more despicable than the deception itself.[ ]

                http://www.tomdispatch.com/...

                "Show up. Pay attention. Tell the truth. And don't be attached to the results." -- Angeles Arrien

                by Sybil Liberty on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 08:24:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  There would be hearings on everything (0+ / 0-)

                Perhaps not in the first two years, but then 2010 came along and the House became a GOP tool.

                "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

                by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:33:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Agreed recc'd (0+ / 0-)

              and would any administration want to set itself up for a similar circus in its future?

              "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

              by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:32:04 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  No supermajority for 90 percent of the time (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            silverfoxcruiser

            The Blue Dogs, empty Minnesota seat, sick Byrd and Kennedy.

            "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

            by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:31:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Don't follow this either -- (0+ / 0-)

          If he had prosecuted, he would have been labeled as an "angry black man" along with all the other canards!  I don't think it was because it was the avenue of least resistance, but that decision was about what was best for the USA.  It has been a very fine, delicate line he has been (socially and diplomatically) forced to follow.  I believe he has done the best thing he could have done for us as citizens.  History will judge Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Condi and Colin....and it won't be praiseworthy.  President Obama has not engaged in the drumbeats of war -- do you think that Romney would have done the same?      

      •  "Let's be practical here" (12+ / 0-)

        I understand.

        It underscores my point.  Obama may have had what in practical terms was a Hobson's choice regarding recognizing the war crimes of his predecessor and holding him and his fellow war criminals to account, but the consequences of his "making" — accepting — that choice is that he is now and forever complicit with the criminals.

        The diarist's contention is, in part, "this is all and wholly Bush's creation and responsibility".  The "all and wholly" part stopped being true the second Obama indicated that none of war crimes would be investigated.

        My judgement is that in the larger scheme of things Obama's failure is even worse.  I worked "on the ground" for the campaign in '08.  Local party functionaries were terrified of the Obama movement.  Rather than head the Democratic Party (which had embraced and promoted their establishment candidate, Hillary Clinton), Obama could have replaced and entire party when he was elected.

        He could have been transformative.  He could have been more than "just Black".

        Instead he assumed the establishment mantle, empowered the usual hit men to continue the raid on the US treasury, made piece with the Clintons, and turned his back on, among others who were caught up in the possibility of change, me.

        It is tempting to see this as an expression of his "all within me" persona.  It's not.  Obama wanted the Presidency more than he wanted change, and he got what he wanted, and rejected the change that was, for a moment, possible.

        Who knows what might have been?  My point is that, even in what we tacitly agree to call "practical", there was a possibility for bold leadership.

        While some will insist this is crazy-talk, I still think Obama could have lived up to a greater promise he represented — Nobel Laureate — and said to the American electorate:  "We have a problem.  Serious crimes, with enormous consequences, have possibly been committed.  Before we move forward as a nation, we must determine what was done, by whom, under what conditions.  I have appointed ... "

        Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

        by Yellow Canary on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:43:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Very well stated. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          goodpractice, lotlizard

          Given the confluence of events preceding his election, and the mandate given him, I have, and probably always will view his presidency as a tremendous opportunity lost. The big question in my mind is whether it was deliberate, or was he just not up to the task. I'm not one who thinks he was a terrible president, but he could have been much more.

          So endith the trick.

          by itsjim on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:26:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Obama did not set out to change the world ... (0+ / 0-)

            ... he set out to become President.

            He accomplished his goals.

            Fwiw, I think he has been a good President.

            And a poor Nobel Peace Prize laureate.

            Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

            by Yellow Canary on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 04:40:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And as president... (0+ / 0-)

              ...his primary job, the one he took an oath on, is to protect the constitution. There are many who believe, with good reason, that he has failed on that front. Who cares how many Nobel prizes he wins while are being spied on by the government, in violation of the 4th amendment?

              So endith the trick.

              by itsjim on Mon Jun 16, 2014 at 05:25:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I am rec'd this...not because I agree with this (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yellow Canary

          but rather because I largely do not. I want to think about this and then get back to you on it.

          I am archiving the entire post.

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:36:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Good and bad in his Presidency. Very good and v... (3+ / 0-)

      Good and bad in his Presidency. Very good and very bad. That is what was politically possible at the time.

  •  George H.W. Bush's responsibility (23+ / 0-)

    US destabilization of the region began with Bush 41's war in 1991. Although that war is often seen today as a success, in contrast to Bush 43's fiasco, it was the first step toward disaster. First, the invasion of Kuwait which set off the war was probably the result of Saddam getting mixed messages from the US ambassador, April Glaspie, and inattention by Bush 41. There were also reports that Saddam was provoked by Kuwaiti horizontal drilling which he felt was stealing Iraqi oil. None of this is 100% certain but there was enough doubt at the time that a diplomatic resolution might have been possible.

    Instead, Bush 41 launched a war which became a mass slaughter of Iraqi conscripts. Then he called for a Shia uprising which led to more mass slaughter by Saddam. And when the war was concluded, US troops remained on Arabian soil, infuriating fundamentalists such as Bin Laden. There followed a decade of sanctions which led to the death of at least hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, particularly children.

    (Bob  Woodward's book, The Commanders, is a good and unbiased source for events leading up to the war)

    So, although McCain presents an easy target, the man most responsible for what may be a million or more deaths in the wars that have raged since 1991 may well be that nice old Grandpa who went sky diving yesterday on his 90th birthday.

    If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks. -Frederick the Great

    by Valatius on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 05:41:24 AM PDT

    •  The usual accolade attach to the Gulf War are.... (7+ / 0-)

      1) Limited strategic and tactical goals
      2) Slow buildup as diplomacy continued
      3) Staging in an Islamic country
      4) A diverse alliance of states
      5) UN involvement and direction from beginning to end
      6) Disengagement at the first possible juncture
      7) No mission creep
      8) No fundamental destabilization of the Hussein regime

      Given this, I think your points are well taken esp. in regard to the Shia uprising and the ongoing presence of "infidel troops on sacred lands."

      Let me add some thoughts.

      I have read the transcripts (several versions of them) of the Glaspie conversations and regard her statements as generally vague but one that could have been read to indicate that the U.S. would have no interest in the moves that Hussein was contemplating. However, any examination of U.S. relations with Kuwait and with Saudi Arabia would sure have given any Iraqi diplomat pause in accepting such a point of view. A confirmation of her supposed position would have been the logical next step IF they were interested in having something more than an excuse for action.

      The case for Kuwaiti horizontal drilling is stronger.

      Additionally, the war loans owed to Kuwait were regarded as usurious in their terms.

      Hussein and his Baath Party held to the principle that all vestiges of European colonialism had to be driven from the Middle East. They claimed that Kuwait was historically a part of Iraq as pieces of Mesopotamia that the British had separated after WWI. In addition to the extensive oil fields in Kuwait, there were the deep water shipping ports on the Bubiyan and Warbah islands

      Personally, Saddam Hussein had reasons to want to go to war against the Western nations. He grew up as young boy hating the British for imprisoning the uncle that had cared for him. Later, in the Baath Party which was based on a platform of Arab unity he was part of a plot to assassinate General Abdul Karim Qasim who they believed was an agent of Western nations.

      Further, by going to war, he hoped to foster Arab unity against the Western nations, mounting an Islamic holy war against the "infidels" (despite the fact that Hussein was a secularist). He believed that it was his destiny to rule an Arab nation stretching from Euphrates to the Suez and thus serve as a counterweight to Persian Iran.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:00:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  From a domestic perspective... (4+ / 0-)

        ...the first Gulf War accomplished something else. It washed the taste of Vietnam from the nations mouth. The clear victory, and the ease with which it was attained helped foster the mindset that the US could march into any situation and quickly get shit straightened out, with little loss of American lives. It made possible the mindless patriotism and idiotic flag waving that was crucial to selling the Iraq war. "We kicked Saddam's ass before, we can do it again and be back in time for dinner."

        So endith the trick.

        by itsjim on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 09:51:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  US invasion of Panama in 1989 also a precedent (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          itsjim, murphthesurf3

          According to Bob Woodward,  the surprise attack on Panama was significant in convincing Bush 41 and his defense secretary Cheney that a new kind of brief war could be easily fought and won. This military action established a precedent for the generation of interventions that followed. The end result of this confidence in the use of military force to effect political reform is visible in the chaos engulfing so much of the Islamic world today.

          Seizing the dictator Noriega met overwhelming approval from politicians and media and the US and local casualties did not attract much notice at the time. He was a very unappealing and brutal thug, a onetime CIA asset, and active in the narco trade. But he was not handed over to an international nor a Panamanian tribunal but instead was sent to a US prison, extradited to France in 2010 and finally sent to a Panamanian prison a couple years ago.

          There were a large  number of Panamanian civilian casualties  due to the assault taking place in an urban area and these numbers were probably  minimized by US authorities who claimed about 300 dead vs. 3000 to 8000 by other estimates. (see New York Times reporta few months later)

          Twenty-three US servicemen were killed and over 300 wounded, and should not be forgotten, (Their names)

          If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks. -Frederick the Great

          by Valatius on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 12:49:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Another excellent addition to the discussion (0+ / 0-)

            I will be adding this to my archive. I am  thinking that there is a diary in this. I will give you credit. Rec'd.

            "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

            by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:09:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I will be adding your fine post to my archive (0+ / 0-)

          You advance my argument rec'd.

          I suggest the first 18 months of the Afghanistan war did the same thing.

          Now, of course, that is all gone.

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:06:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  try 100 years ago on the destabilization (10+ / 0-)

      the west has been fucking with the middle east for at least that long; GHWB got nothin' on the balfour declaration.

      Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

      by Cedwyn on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:09:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Only in 91?????????? (6+ / 0-)

      What about Iran- Iraq? or Lebanon? taking down the government in Iran or a million other things.

      •  Backing Saddam's war on Iran, including poison gas (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Iberian

        Blowing an Iranian civil airliner out of the sky and awarding medals for the deed.

        Talk about sending mixed signals.

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

        by lotlizard on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:09:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Thank God that McCain never became President (20+ / 0-)

    otherwise there would have been 500,000 American troops in Iraq right now.  

  •  So John "the fundamentals of the economy are (17+ / 0-)

    sound" McCain is wrong about Iraq? Imagine that.
    Actually he should get an award for consistency, because he is always wrong.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 05:48:55 AM PDT

  •  Obama followed the Bush war plan (19+ / 0-)

    As the author points out, Pres. Obama simply followed the Bush war plan on ending the US involvement in Iraq.  McCain may be able to score some political points, but the US could not stay in Iraq longer without taking over the government of the country.

    Interesting is the many similarities between Vietnam and Iraq.  Both military engagements were started off with lies told to justify US involvement; both engagements had the US military supporting an unpopular local figure-head, both engagements were long and ultimately unwinnable; both engagements left US supporters in harm's way, both involvements resulted in a bloody war after the US left.  A big difference is that Iraq has lots of oil production and Vietnam has none

    "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

    by Hugh Jim Bissell on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 05:53:37 AM PDT

  •  So, when Obama became President (6+ / 0-)

    there was nothing he could have done?  In the last five years, there was nothing the United States could have done differently?  The actions of GWB made President Obama irrelevant in Middle East foreign policy?

    I don't disagree that decisions of the GWB administration certainly contributed here.  But he hasn't been President for the last five years.

    Really, I think it's almost insulting to the current President to imply that he doesn't bear any responsibility for United States policy over the last five years in the Middle East.  It's almost makes the President irrelevant in Middle East foreign policy, and I don't think he's irrelevant.  Clearly, to the extent United States foreign policy played a role, there's plenty of blame to go around, and both GWB and the current President bear some of that.  

    •  You sound reasonable but I wonder.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mithra666, Sue B, OhioNatureMom, Tonedevil

      in term of impact, the Bush admin is just yesterday and the Obama administration has been walking in the tracks laid out by his predecessors. Like a huge freighter at sea negotiating a turn is complex and slow.

      Rather than deal in generalized "couldn't he have" why don't you offer me the alternatives you imagine could have been done.

      I provided a discussion of the SOFA agreement which would be my starting point in this discussion.

      Obama has chosen to learn the lessons from Iraq that were available to the Bush administration regarding the deep ethnic, tribal and religious differences within the region, the poor position held by any "infidel nation" there; the foolish tactic of conducting a war on the ground; and the need for a widely based system of alliances. Each of these is an Obama principle which has then generated his actions there.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:22:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think that probably the most legitimate (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pi Li, goodpractice, lotlizard, VClib

        criticismwas in the way the Administration handled the conflict in Syria.

        I freely admit that I'm no foreign policy expert, but my understanding is that what is going on in Iraq is in large part an extension of the conflict in Syria.  It's been that way for a year or more., and I think it's pretty much recognized that the current crisis is connected to what's been going on in Syria more recently.

        So, of course the questioning of the President's Middle East policy needs to begin with his handling of Syria.  

        Again, I do NOT mean to suggest that GWB's policies played no role -- of course they did.  I think, however, it's disingenuous to look at the current crisis and simply blame the GWB administration, as if decisions and actions of the current administration could not possibly have made any difference.  

        •  OK, so what do you think the Administration could (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, macamma, Inland

          have done differently in Syria? Support the dictator there?


          "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis Brandies

          by Pescadero Bill on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:05:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What alternatives do you suggest/support in re. (0+ / 0-)

          to obama's Syria policy? I agree the Sunni resurgence and radicalism is a Syrian/Iraqi phenomenon.

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:24:53 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hard to recover from one of the most massive (5+ / 0-)

      foreign policy f--k-ups in modern history.
      What, exactly, should President Obama have done?

      •  See my comment above. (4+ / 0-)

        I think the place to look is in the dealing with Syria.

        Again, I do NOT mean to absolve the GWB administration.  Certainly, there's blame there.  But pretty clearly, the current crisis also has a lot to do with what has been happening more recently in Syria.  So it's legitimate to look at what the current Administration did, or did not do, with respect to dealing with Syria.  

        My point is not to say GWB's administration is free from blame -- clearly, clearly there's blame there.  My point is simply to point out that diaries like this tend to imply "Don't look at President Obama for responsibility here, because it's all Bush's fault," and I don't think that has any more credibility than Republicans who say it's ALL this President's fault.  Clearly, it's far more complex than that, and what's going on is a result of years of policies  and decisions by both Administrations.  

        •  What should Obama have done? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil, JayBat

          Ignored the will of the Iraqi people and left a significant US presence there? Indefinitely?

          Should Obama have ignored Congress and taken action in Syria?

          You keep saying Obama is partly to blame and that it's complicated, but you don't offer any insights into what he should or could have done differently.

    •  If you can't think of one thing O could have done, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil

      how can you assume there's something he could have done, and that it would be worth the cost to the US?

      Does it make people feel bad to admit the US isn't omnipotent?

      Retrospectives on 25th anniversary of Tiananmen at Chinafile.com

      by Inland on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 08:41:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The Bush legacy; Three countries wrecked (17+ / 0-)

    Iraq, Afghanistan, and the United States were all flaming train wrecks at the end of just eight years of Republican rule. Quite a spectacular record, and one that American voters should be constantly reminded of when they consider continuing to vote Republican.

    "Just because we have the best hammer does not mean that every problem is a nail." - My President

    by Fordmandalay on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:00:41 AM PDT

    •  and yet we seem to be reticent to say it as (5+ / 0-)

      loudly and as boldly as you just did. I wonder why? Given how willing the right is to blame the Obama administration for anything and everything why aren't the democrats willing to lay what is obviously true at the foot of those whose mess it is?

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:16:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Possibly because our Democratic Party leaders (0+ / 0-)

        … pretty much signed off on everything, every step of the way, making them complicit?

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

        by lotlizard on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:14:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There is a case to made there but (0+ / 0-)

          as a group the Dems emerged as challengers questioning the authenticity of the rationale, the nature of the tactics and the effectiveness of the strategy as the GOP continued to hold victory parades.

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:01:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The "impeach Bush and Cheney" sentiment on DKos (0+ / 0-)

        … was strong after Democrats won Congress in 2006.

        The point was to shine a spotlight on exactly what had happened and crystallize in the voting public's mind exactly who (neocon Republicans and their de-facto allies) was responsible.

        We all saw how far that got.

        The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

        by lotlizard on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:19:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Dems have never been good at the "impeach em" (0+ / 0-)

          dance....even when there is a strong case for doing just that. The GOP are quite willing to talk it up over....well almost anything...."Obama has failed to develop a positive relationship with Congress" is the one that sends me over the edge every time.

          "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

          by murphthesurf3 on Sat Jun 14, 2014 at 06:03:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  McCain is in a special category . . . (8+ / 0-)

    John McCain, Lindsay Graham, and Kelly Ayotte are a remarkable enactment of the Three Stooges--the Larry, Moe, and Curly of US politics.

    In the next few days, McCain's comic partners will chime in with the Ailes/Fox/RNC talking points on how Pres. Obama "lost" Iraq--which will actually still be there.

    Bloody hell, those thugs are tiresome.

    Wrong to the nth power.

    We're all just working for Pharaoh.

    by whl on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:07:19 AM PDT

  •  But that doesn't mean that (6+ / 0-)

    The GOP will fail at tagging Obama as the loser.

    •  That's the real tragedy (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OhioNatureMom

      That so many of our countrymen buy the Fox/RW radio propaganda hook, line, and sinker  

    •  Of course, but we need to raise our voices loudly (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT

      and clearly against that, with a short set of facts like "The case for blaming Bush: open and shut" in this diary. What is happening in Iraq was baked into Bush's decision to take out Saddam Hussein and bound to happen sooner or later.

      "Portion of the adolescent prisoners in solitary on Rikers Island who have been diagnosed with a mental illness: 7/10." Tell someone.

      by RJDixon74135 on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:50:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not like we didn't see that coming. (0+ / 0-)

      Even in 2008 we knew that Obama would be blamed for anything that happened after ending the wars.  I guess it's "lucky" that the US is so sick of war that it won't get any traction.

      Retrospectives on 25th anniversary of Tiananmen at Chinafile.com

      by Inland on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 08:44:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I hope! (0+ / 0-)

        I don't want to be a concern troll or a pessimist, but it's sort of like Barnum/Mencken. "No one ever went broke by overestimating the gullibility of the American voter." Or the depravity of the modern Republican party.

        (I still have good memories of some of the old GOP politicos. I may have violently disagreed with some of their policy choices, but they were civil, intelligent, and well-spoken. Others, like Charlie Sandman during the Watergate Impeachment hearings, could give this bunch lessons in poor behavior.)

  •  I'll never forget (4+ / 0-)

    The week before the invasion if Iraq, I was having a conversation with a relative who said "you know we're going in on Tuesday."  I asked why and he said "Because that was the day 9/11 happened on".  Indeed, I'll never forget it. Makes me sad and angry at all of the elected leaders that pushed all of the tragic lies.

  •  could we dare to hope that anyone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mithra666

    in the administration and the Democratic establishment will have the cojones to stand up and repeat this truth?

    don't always believe what you think

    by claude on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 06:26:04 AM PDT

  •  John McCain is an idiot (5+ / 0-)

    he would have the United States be referee in a thousand year old blood feud between the Shia and the Sunni for the next thousand years.

    His recommended actions would destroy the United States of America

  •  One way tickets to Baghdad for the "perpetraitors" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OhioNatureMom

    A taxpayer funded holiday for Bush the Lesser, Oily Dick, Rummy, Wolfie, and McNasty.  Documentation by drone.  

  •  Boehner actually had the GALL (3+ / 0-)

    to accuse Obama of "taking a nap" for the months preceding this latest incursion by the Shia forces.
    What does he propose Obama should have done? Ramp up forces again?
    The Iraqi government, btw, rejected us leaving forces there. The democratically elected government. (Democracy, yea!)

  •  When we debate this, we lose (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jdsnebraska, a2nite

    I can't believe we're even having a conversation about blaming the disintegration of Iraq on Barack Obama.  It's like blaming the building of the Berlin Wall on Jimmy Carter.  

    Right wing stupidity may fill talk radio and the cable news networks for a cycle, but there is ZERO chance anyone in history will ever associate the Iraq fiasco with anyone other than President Dick Cheney and Vice President Painty McFaketexan

  •  Relative to what's happening now in Iraq and (2+ / 0-)

    the Middle East you can blame Bush and the neocons but the blame can also go to Obama and the neolibs.  Bush and his crew started it but the agenda continued with Obama.  Over five years of ramped up war worldwide including in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Somalia.  Destablilization campaigns and regime changes.  The Obama administration has not only continued the War OF Terror but has accelerated it with it's use of drones and executive assassinations of anyone anywhere on earth.  They've had their own neocon laden plans to train, arm, and organize the same islamist organizations, in cooperation with Saudi Arabia, Qatar and others, to fight their proxy wars in Libya and Syria.  
     It's all on Obama, Biden, Clinton, Kerry, Rice, Powers, and Nuland as much as it was on Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, and Wolfowitz.  
     In the end it is the exact same agenda, the only agenda for the U.S. elite and that is world domination.  The only thing that changes are the tactics.
    The blame goes to an insane desire from our so called ruling class to want to be King of the world, and on the public for letting them do it.

    "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:06:02 AM PDT

    •  There is something to what you are saying but.... (0+ / 0-)

      what is the motivation for the Obama side of the equation.

      I know why Bush and the neocons who used him did what they did, and I know they handed the mess to Obama et. al. but you seem to think that the state of affairs is one desired by the "neo liberals." Why would they? What is their agenda?

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 06:47:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Idiot Bremmer is now painting, like Bush. (0+ / 0-)

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:16:47 AM PDT

  •  One way to get power back for America (0+ / 0-)

    emergency development of alt energy, the fuel cell, solar battery breakthrough whatever it takes

    Russia needs fossil fuel money and we can't counter a fascist Russia with lots of oil money without WAR so we need to cut off the regimes that depend on fossil fuel money

    the ONLY way to ever have the upper hand in the future

    "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

    by merrywidow on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:19:04 AM PDT

    •  We are chained to the fortunes of the most (0+ / 0-)

      unstable regions on earth by our need to be part of oil auction block....it isn't that we could not be our own source of oil but to do that we have to extract that oil in ways that are in the long run very destructive. So...alternative energy with solar at the top of my list...but the tech is still a long way off for macro energy supplies.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 06:44:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I thought it started with evil rotten Ronnie by (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lotlizard

    funding both sides, Iran/Iraq & Afghanistan.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:20:16 AM PDT

  •  A strong case for diplomacy and against military (3+ / 0-)

    intervention before the beginning of the First Gulf War was made by Edward Heath, who had been Prime Minister of Great Britain 1970-74. I heard him (via C-Span) testify in December 1990 to the House Armed Services committee and remember him saying the Arab countries were capable of handling their own problems and had respected various treaties which he described in detail. His testimony had no effect on the committee, obviously, but I was impressed by his knowledge. Video of the hearing is here.

    The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right. -- Judge Learned Hand, May 21, 1944

    by ybruti on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 07:29:07 AM PDT

    •  I remember this (0+ / 0-)

      The problem was that the Arab countries did not have the military infrastructure to launch the type of action considered necessary and the force had to be truly multinational anchored in the UN so that no Arab nation could be accused of doing what Hussein was doing, engaging in a land grab.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 06:39:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Sounds like a great campaign slogan for 2016 (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    schumann

    Elect Hillary Clinton; the world might go to shit, but it would be the last two guys fault.

    •  Anyone who doe not know that a presidential (0+ / 0-)

      administration lasts well into the next.....well.....Ike was Prez in the 1950's. Every driven on a highway, or wondered what the gas tax was for, or looked at empty inner cities, or considered how it was the suburbs came to be or that the passenger trains die or....

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 06:34:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  that never made sense to me (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    schumann

    the one point I never understood was that the bush administration wanted to invade a sovereign nation, destroy it, and then expected the people to rebuild their country, and the invaders would be cheered as liberators?

    liberators from who? us? apparently the bush administration were arrogant enough to think  you can invade a country unprovoked, and then be considered heros the next!!

    •  Commanders of the U.S. occupation complained about (0+ / 0-)

      … "foreign meddling" in Iraq, without a trace of awareness of any irony in that formulation.

      The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

      by lotlizard on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 11:33:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lacking any context and with only their goals (0+ / 0-)

      in mind, they acted ignorantly and arrogantly and launched us into a debacle which continue to this day. Bush did not know Sunni from Shia. He did not know the role of the secular Baath Party. He did not know the role Iraq played with Iran. AND his ignorance was played by the neocons who dominated his cabinet.

      "It is better to light one candle than curse the darkness." (Adlai Stevenson in praise of Eleanor Roosevelt) (Glowing Candle Avatar Adopted in 1986)

      by murphthesurf3 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 at 06:32:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think Iraqis and insurgents can be blamed, too, (0+ / 0-)

    but only Bush really went out of his way to gratuitously act against the self interest of his own country to fuck up Iraq.

    Retrospectives on 25th anniversary of Tiananmen at Chinafile.com

    by Inland on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 08:39:21 AM PDT

  •  Only the morons (0+ / 0-)

    will not be able to see through the Republican accusations. And the morons are going to be voting Republican anyway

    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

    by gjohnsit on Fri Jun 13, 2014 at 08:44:07 AM PDT

  •  Hotlisted Murph, good stuff. n/t (0+ / 0-)

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