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So I have been a member here for some time.  I have been reading and learning a great deal from many of the diaries on this site.  Generally I am content to read and see the views expressed by others.  Today I posted my first reply.  After reading a few more diaries I decided I would try to publish one of my own and see how it goes.  Many topics I will likely never post on.  LGBT issues, political issues, what to do about Iraq.  If I posted there I would be preaching to the choir.  The one issue that I tend to disagree with on this site is firearms.  I have been carrying a firearm in the line of duty since I was 18.  I have had a great deal of training with all types of firearms from defensive applications, tactical applications, and law enforcement applications.  I am currently a firearms instructor.  I never call myself an expert, I let my students and co-workers give me that title.  That being said, I feel I have useful information to bring to the table.  I am 30 years old and have dedicated most of my adult life to understanding the gun and the law.  I'm going to go way out on a limb here and try a different angle, this will work for some, and probably wont work so well for others.  

The diary I read that finally provoked me to write a diary stated that it was the job of the police to protect you.  To begin, the courts have determined that it is not the job of the police to protect you.  If you or a family member are the victim of a violent crime, try suing the police department because they did not prevent the act from occurring.  Our prisons are full of inmates who have committed murders.  The police catch these psychopaths (Sometimes, last statistic I saw was 35% of murders solved in Chicago and that was either 2008 or 2009).  But each of these prisoners represents a person the police were unable to protect.  Sure, justice was done, but that does not bring the victim back.  The statistic that should create more concern is the 65% of killers who haven't been caught and are still out there.  I wont go into rape or other violent crime.  

I believe that self defense and the protection of ones family falls to the man (or woman)of the house.  If my loved ones are violently attacked I am not dialing 911 as someone is sticking a knife or putting a bullet into a family member.  First of all, I cant dial the phone that fast.  Secondly, the police can't drive that fast.  When you or a loved one is violently attacked by someone with the obvious intent to kill or maim, your only immediate option is to stop that attack.  Many feel that this can't happen to them or their loved ones.  I see people who have lost loved ones on the news every night.  I had a cousin who was 21 years old.  She was abducted going into work in a good neighborhood.  I wont go into details about what her kidnappers did to her, but she was eventually killed.  This world can be a wonderful place at times, but it can also be a place of unspeakable violence and evil.  Even if we aren't physically destroyed by that violence, if you watch a loved one die in front of you and you were powerless to stop the attack, I can assure you that you are psychologically destroyed.  I have seen it.  To me, carrying a gun is not a political issue.  Okay, carrying an AR-15 to Chipotle is over the top and if I saw a group of people walking into a place I was eating at I would be more than a little concerned.  But regardless of political affiliation, everyone has the right to protect themselves and their family, because no one is going to do it for you.  

The key to owning and carrying a firearm is taking responsibility.  I agree with many of the diaries I have read.  It's harder to get a drivers license and drive a car than it is to carry a gun.  Right now, gun ownership is a personal responsibility.  With the craziness and evil in this world, I suggest every law abiding progressive liberal own a gun if it is lawful for you to do so.  The bad guys are going to have them, the conservatives are going to have them, why shouldn't you?  With that statement, I would add a few notes.  While these suggestions are not the law, in my professional opinion, a responsible gun owner should consider the following:

Am I responsible enough to own a gun?
Guns are like any tool.  They do what the operator commands them to do.  I have never seen a gun "just go off".  Someone took off the safety and put their finger on the trigger every time.  Being responsible means knowing how to handle the gun, how to secure it properly from children and those who should not have access to it.  Also, assess yourself.  Do you have a short temper?  Illinois has had concealed carry now for 5 months and no one has been shot by a concealed carry permit holder.  If you have a tendency towards violence when angry, do yourself and society a favor and pass on the gun and go to pepper spray.  

Secure your firearm!
This is a flat no brainer.  If your gun is not concealed on your person, it is locked up and secured.  Get a gun safe, I would suggest something with a combination, kids have a way of finding keys.  If it's not in your holster (Which should be a model that covers the trigger), it's locked up.  Don't leave it in your jacket or in your purse laying on the table for your kids or anyone else to find.  (See above "Am I responsible enough to own a gun")

Get training!
No one was comfortable and ready to hit the open road the first time they got into the drivers seat of a car.  Firearms are very much the same.  Get training and lots of it.  If you want to carry a gun in Illinois it takes 16 hours of training.  This is not nearly enough for most people to be comfortable and competent with a gun.  Get training, get private lessons, then get more training.  Believe it or not, handling a gun can become as comfortable as driving your car, and the gun will never surprise you with blow outs or brake failures.  

Get insurance!
Another no brainer.  Guns can protect you and your family during a violent encounter, but there is a great deal of responsibility and liability when carrying a gun.  There are very decent insurances out there for firearm owners.  Second Call and USCCA Defense shield are two great options.  It will cost between $10 - $40 per month (I suggest going closer to the $40 / month).  This covers everything from civil damages to legal defenses if you have to use your firearm.

Get training!
Did I mention this one already?  Well it bears mentioning again.  Every tragic firearm accident I have looked at comes down to only two causes.  Ignorance or Carelessness.  Ignorance is a lack of knowledge.  Carelessness is a failure to apply the rules of safe gun handling.  There is no other cause of firearms accidents that I am aware of, they all stem from either Ignorance or Carelessness.  I have many co workers and friends who are gun owners.  Some new gun owners, some have had guns their whole lives.  I do not personally know anyone who has had a "firearm accident" that resulted in injury or death.  This is because they have all been trained properly.  If you are going to get a gun, GET PROPPER TRAINING!!!

So my first one is a long one.  This is just another angle on firearms from someone with firearms background and training.  After reading back through what I have put to paper (so to speak), I do not see anything that should offend anyone.  I know there are people of like mind out there as I have trained alongside plenty of them.  I do not generally train the public, but if you are in the Chicago area and interested in getting some training I may make an exception.  If not I know of two excellent firearm schools in the area where instructors are of like mind or have no political affiliation.  I know how much it stinks to go for training and get stuck with an instructor spewing political crap while you are trying to learn to shoot.  If you do decide to take this angle and are looking for training feel free to shoot me a message and I will gladly point you in the right direction... I look forward to being a part of this community and hopefully bringing something unique and useful to the table.  

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Comment Preferences

  •  A question for you. You write that (7+ / 0-)
    I suggest every law abiding progressive liberal own a gun if it is lawful for you to do so.  The bad guys are going to have them, the conservatives are going to have them, why shouldn't you?
    How exactly do you distinguish between "a good guy" with a gun from "a bad guy" with a gun?

    "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

    by Calvino Partigiani on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 10:47:28 PM PDT

    •  Depends on the situation (10+ / 0-)

      If the person is conceal carrying generally you don't know they have a gun.  I have only been in a handful of situations where a gun has come out.  Generally it is fairly easy to tell who the good guy is and who the bad guy is once the gun comes out.  Usually it's a combination of verbal indicators and actions.  

      In a self defense situation generally the victim is giving verbal indicators such as "Stop, get off me" or "Don't hurt me" .  After a shooting the victim who pulled the gun will either ask someone to call 911 or call 911 themselves.  Verbal indicators that it is likely the bad guy are phrases such as "Give me your wallet" or "Get in the car" or "Move and I kill her".  Many times, if the attack happens around a group of people it is very clear who the "bad" guy is and who the "good" guy is.  One example was an attempted robbery at an internet café where two men came in, one with a gun and one with a baseball bat.  One was waving the gun telling everyone to get on the ground.  The one with the bat was smashing monitors.  The burglar with the gun grabbed a woman and her husband in the café pulled his gun and shot the burglar with the gun.  To everyone around, it was abundantly clear who the "bad" guy was and who the "good" guy was.  I can give many examples, generally the shooting is over in a matter of seconds and anyone who saw the shooting likely saw what led up to it.  I'm sure there is a rare case somewhere where it is hard to tell the good guy from the bad guy, but I haven't seen it.  Generally one is obviously trying to protect themselves or others and one is trying to harm others.    

      As a rule, we train people to use a firearm to protect themselves or their families from imminent death or great bodily harm only.  The citizen gun owner is not a law enforcement officer and generally should not get involved and should be a good witness unless there is imminent danger of death or great bodily harm.

      There was a cautionary story I use often.  A man is on top of a woman and both are fully clothed and the woman is screaming "Rape".  A witness pulls a gun on the guy on top of the woman.  The man on top of the woman displays a badge and tells the man with the gun that he is arresting the woman for shop lifting.  

      Obviously a rape is not occurring if both people are fully clothed.  Rather than pulling his gun, a good Samaritan probably should have pulled out his phone and said "I'm calling the police".  At this point the officer would have probably responded "I am a police officer and I am arresting this woman for shop lifting".  If the man had any doubts he would simply stick around as a witness until the police arrived.  

      Again, it all comes down to proper training.  

      •  Interesting. To take just one of your examples, (2+ / 0-)

        if a guy says "Get in the car" and it seems he might have a gun, then it should be assumed he is a bad guy.  

        Should a good guy with a gun shoot him, if he is trained?

        "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

        by Calvino Partigiani on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 11:48:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again.... (7+ / 0-)

          That is a job for the police.  My suggestion is not to get involved if it does not put you or your family in danger of great bodily harm or death... Again, be a good witness.  If something seems suspicious I would advise getting the plate, a description, and dialing 911.  

          If someone grabs your wife and seems to have a gun and is forcing her into a car, then I would encourage you to assess the situation.  If someone grabbed my wife and tried to force her into a car and appeared to have a gun I would absolutely be drawing my gun and yelling something like "Stop, Let her go".  

      •  Shaking head. (6+ / 0-)

        "Generally it is fairly easy to tell who the good guy is and who the bad guy is once the gun comes out.  Usually it's a combination of verbal indicators and actions."

         

        “Listen--are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life?” ― Mary Oliver

        by weezilgirl on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 05:04:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Shaking your head doesn't change the truth (6+ / 0-)

          the problem's not the firearms, it's the users.

          The murderers.
          The rapists.
          The thieves.
          The felons.
          The lawbreakers.

          Jackslogic's right, and yet ...

          Pervasive fears of inanimate objects' uncanny abilities to incite evil acts just by their existence dominate the culture in what's supposed to be a reality-based site.

          I'm not shaking my head. It's gone way too far for that.

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:16:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  100 kids killed by unintentional gun shots since (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Glen The Plumber, coquiero, WakeUpNeo

            Sandy Hook, about one every third day.

            Often the kids are killed by other kids - those are users too. Is it the gun or the user?

            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

            by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:13:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How many of those kids were killed (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Angryallen

              by a firearm with no human touching it at the time?

              Users cause firearms to go off. Firearms going off causes injury and/or death.

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:15:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  0 - all shot by themselves, a sibling or a friend (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Glen The Plumber, coquiero, WakeUpNeo

                So, I think you are saying, that the kids are responsible for their actions?

                "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:18:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  so you're saying all those guns just went off (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Angryallen

                  without anybody touching them?

                  LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:41:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, just the opposite: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    coquiero
                    all shot by themselves, a sibling or a friend
                    It sounds like you are saying those kids, some 2 years old, are responsible or pulling the trigger.

                    "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                    by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:52:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  In the sense of physics, (0+ / 0-)

                      the awful truth is that yes, those kids did pull the trigger.

                      The fault lies with whatever excuse for an adult left a loaded firearm unsecured with children unsupervised in the area.

                      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:10:12 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  So, wouldn't a smart gun have a much better (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        coquiero

                        chance at stopping that scenario from unfolding?

                        If those were smart guns, don't you think most if not all of those accidental shootings would not have happened?

                        "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                        by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:23:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  No, I don't. (0+ / 0-)

                          I think those shootings should have been avoided by responsible adults not leaving loaded firearms in proximity to unsupervised children.

                          I'll say that again. LEAVING LOADED FIREARMS IN PROXIMITY TO UNSUPERVISED CHILDREN IS THE FAULT OF THE LAZY OR INDIFFERENT OR DRUG-ADDLED "ADULT" WHO DOES IT.

                          The kids pay the price.

                          Do you really think people who'd be this careless would take the trouble to operate "smart" guns properly?

                          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                          by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:27:17 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Why not let people decide what kind of gun they (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            want?

                            Give them the choice of a smart gun.

                            And yes, responsible storage would prevent many/all of those as well.

                            But it's logically impossible to say that a smart gun would not have prevented many/all of those shootings. It would.

                            Whether or not those people would actually get a smart gun is another story.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:40:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So given that the kind of people who enable (0+ / 0-)

                            these tragedies would not get one ... what's the point of having the thing?

                            An intelligent human being in control of the situation is the problem here -- more specifically, the utter and absolute LACK thereof.

                            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                            by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:05:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's not a given 100% of the time - how about (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            let people have the freedom to make choices for themselves rather than have the gun lobby act as a socialist dictator and tell people what people can and cannot do.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 07:10:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You know, I don't mind the idea or even the (0+ / 0-)

                            production. If they work and people buy them, they should be available.

                            LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                            by BlackSheep1 on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 07:30:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look at how far safety and cars has come over (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            the past 40 years. We now have cars that can sense when you are passing over a lane line and alert you.

                            Imagine what could be done over 40 years if creativity, intelligence and money were directed at making technologies for safer guns. And guess what - people could have one of each, if they so desired, a "smart" gun and a "dumb" gun.  

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 07:34:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As long as these don't replace dumb guns (0+ / 0-)

                            I'd encourage their development. I'd fight legislation that requires guns to be "smart" though

                          •  Fair enough - it would be interesting to see (0+ / 0-)

                            those guns in the market and be able to examine their success or failure.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Fri Jun 27, 2014 at 03:30:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'd like to share a video with you (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            We Shall Overcome

                            Illustrates the potential pitfalls of this tech. On an open market, I would have no objections. Otherwise, any legislative mandates I won't abide.

                            http://youtu.be/... (it won't burn your eyes, I promise)

                          •  No one said to ban smart guns (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't care if manufacturers produce them or some idiots want to own them, either. That's for the market to determine. What will never be determined, for the reasons I stated elsewhere in this thread, that smart guns be compulsory in firearms ownership.

            •  11 teens die daily from texting while driving. (0+ / 0-)
  •  Look (13+ / 0-)

    Most of us aren't against the private ownership of guns (although I'll admit to you that I am). Most of us would be happy with things like requiring all guns to be "smart" guns; requiring firearm insurance; reducing maximum magazine sizes to, say, six; banning certain weapons whose self-defense value is dubious at best, like high calibre, military-grade rifles; and expanding background checks to include those weapons sold at gun shows.

    The effect of this would not be to harm responsible gun owners:

    There is no universe where having a smart gun is a bad thing - unless you want a thief to be able to shoot you with your own gun.

    There is no universe where firearm insurance is a bad thing - accidental deaths and injuries from firearms cost real, live human beings. I'm glad you recognize this, but the law does not require insurance, and it should.

    There is no universe where magazine size restrictions are a bad thing - if you need more than six shots, you're probably at the OK Corral and shouldn't be there in the first place.

    There is no universe where possessing an AK-47 is necessary for home defense. In fact, it's less practical for home defense when compared to a close-range shotgun loaded with buckshot or even a pistol.

    There is no universe where felons being able to purchase guns at a gun show could possibly be a good thing. We restrict felons from having weapons for a reason, and it's because they're freaking felons. They've demonstrated their total lack of regard for societal law. Now we can demonstrate our total lack of sympathy for removing their second amendment "right".

    There's just no universe where these common sense solutions won't save some poor person's life. If it saves even one life, it's worth it. These restrictions don't inconvenience any person who legitimately wishes to defend themselves from harm. It does, however, greatly inconvenience people who wish to shoot up a theater, kill a rival gang member, or overthrow the US government. And somehow, I don't find my heart breaking for those people.

    •  There are many reasons why smart guns are bad (9+ / 0-)

      Ever have to reboot your computer or smart phone?  That might be inconvenient in the case of needing it.  Do you know how smart guns work?  They usually require a bracelet.  If the gun gets too far away from the bracelet, it won't work.  Usually 3 feet, so the gun can't be taken away from you.  If you're right handed, the bracelet goes on your right hand (the gun hand). Well, what happens if you're right hand is injured (the most injured part of the body is the hands in a gunfight.  People tend to subconsciously aim for the gun instead of the vitals.  Or what if you have to switch hands while shooting around a corner.  The human arm span extends past the limit of the bracelet.  Most shootings occur within 5 feet.  So if you extend that range, than it doesn't prevent the gun being taken and used against the owner.

      Mechanical guns are simple for a reason.  Requiring a battery to operate a life saving device is so ridiculous that its laughable.  That's not even taking into the consideration of cost.  There's a big difference in supplying smart guns to the market place, and letting people choose.  Requiring guns to be smart is completely different.

    •  Rec'd for convo (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, ER Doc, DavidMS

      We need to stop using blanket condemnations and get into specifics.  A Felon who's a tax cheat, isn't the same as a non-felon who hasn't been convicted of brutally attacking people in "the knockout game".

      Or a Felon who's been knocking out people going about their quiet business.

      You stigmatize an AK-47, which I'm no great fan of, yet it's not the make and model which makes that gun infamous.
      It's the use.

      Machetes are very useful tools, yet they bring a visceral reaction to most Rwandans.  Is it the machete, or the history of misuse in genocide?

    •  Smart guns are dumb (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, Angryallen

      Anything electronic is unlikely to be reliable enough to be used as a safety device on a firearm.  We are talking about something in excess of five nines reliability (less than one failure in 100,000 activations).  Secondly, the identification process needs to be nearly instant (think less than 1/4 second to identify the user and unlock the firearm).  Its not going to happen anytime soon.  

      As for your claims about the AK pattern rifle, its a good but not excellent choice for home defense.  The 7.62x39 is a decent cartridge for self defense when loaded with quality soft points.  I wrote about it previously.  

      If you need more than 6 cartridges in your gun, you are probably shooting competitively.  

      The only place I agree with you is on banning habitual violent felons from the ownership of firearms.  The rest of it exists in an alternative universe called the movies.  

      I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

      by DavidMS on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:56:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Clarify your line of duty (6+ / 0-)
    I have been carrying a firearm in the line of duty since I was 18.

    I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

    by Wayward Wind on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 11:14:34 PM PDT

  •  Welcome. You have contributions to make. (5+ / 0-)

    Your education and experience can fill in gaps in people's knowledge.

    It's vital to take a close look at whether guns are more good than harm at personal protection. You would, I think and hope, recommend prevention instead of gun ownership for an alcoholic, or for someone with a suicidal teenager in the house?

    There are a lot of situations like that in the world.

    There's also a profound philosophical issue. We've shed untold sweat and even blood to build a civilized society. The goal of it, partially reached in some places and times, is to make violence unnecessary.

    Anyone considering a dog for personal safety should treat that decision as seriously as they would buying a gun.

    by Dogs are fuzzy on Wed Jun 25, 2014 at 11:28:11 PM PDT

  •  Where to start? (4+ / 0-)

    How about the old favorite

    To begin, the courts have determined that it is not the job of the police to protect you.
    That is not what the courts decided. What the courts decided was that it was unreasonable to expect the cops to be successful 100% of the time, and on those occasions where they were not successful, it was not ok to sue them.

    That is like saying your family could sue a seat belt manufacturer if you had  a head on with an 18 wheeler while drunk driving at 100 mph because you didn't survive.

    I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.

    by peterfallow on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 12:06:33 AM PDT

    •  Supreme court disagrees (15+ / 0-)

      On June 27th of 2005 the supreme court ruled that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.  

      The decision, with an opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia and dissents from Justices John Paul Stevens and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, overturned a ruling by a federal appeals court in Colorado. The appeals court had permitted a lawsuit to proceed against a Colorado town, Castle Rock, for the failure of the police to respond to a woman's pleas for help after her estranged husband violated a protective order by kidnapping their three young daughters, whom he eventually killed.

      Warren vs District of Columbia is another one to check out...

      I am not being condescending and in all respect, if you have something that states contrary to this I would very much like to study it

      •  you are correct, imo the worst of the decisions (11+ / 0-)

        was Castle Rock v Gonzales......so fucking sad to read the details and flat maddening.

        If I wasn't already an owner and carrier, that alone would have changed the equation.

        As the current law stands, the police have no duty to any individual even those with legal restraining orders like Jessica Gonzales.......

        Also realize you aren't alone here though at times it can seem like it.  there's actually lots of pro rkba Dems though they tend to be more quiet than the antis.

        If you are interested in joining RKBA Kossaks, let me know and I'll drop you an invite.....we have about a hundred members and do try to act as a counterpoint to the worst of the anti's.

        Our basic motto is a republican in power is more dangerous than any gun and more gun control = more repubs in power.....

        Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
        I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
        Emiliano Zapata

        by buddabelly on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:24:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That basic motto is doesn't hold water .... just (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber, coquiero

          ask the Colorado gun lobby who has turned Colorado from red to purple and almost blue. It's their extremism on guns as well as on abortion/personhood, gay marriage et al that has given Colorado to the Democrats.

          It's a funny thing about the gun lobby - they also are climate denying, anti gay marriage, anti choice zealots.

          Go figure.

          "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

          by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:56:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  LaPierre and his ilk must be very proud of you: (11+ / 0-)
    With the craziness and evil in this world, I suggest every law abiding progressive liberal own a gun if it is lawful for you to do so.  The bad guys are going to have them, the conservatives are going to have them, why shouldn't you?
    You may develop some fans here, but not so much if you're just going to twist and try to disguise disgusting NRA talking points.

    "More guns the better" is just plain bullshit.

    •  I'd like to play poker with jackslogic (7+ / 0-)

      because right there is a man who doesn't understand odds.

      The fact is, there isn't as much "craziness and evil" in this world as he fears, and while having a gun might help in the less-than-once-in-a-lifetime chance an ordinary person faces of a stranger attacking them... being around a gun makes you and everyone around you less safe at all other places and all other times.  It's like carrying around a chainsaw that's always idling, just in case you need it to slice your way out of a burning building.  

      Besides, nearly all violent attacks, from road rage to gun massacres, are committed by people who feel like they're righting wrongs done against them, or who think they're deterring imminent wrongdoing.  We chalk it up as "crazy", but it's really an element of the old 'culture of honor' where the only way to protect yourself from violence, disrespect, and embarrassment, is to use violence and "self-help justice" as a deterrent:  Mess with the bull, you get the horns, In Texas, we don't call 911, and other slogans full of nervous swagger.

      The problem with self-help justice is that the person you get it against doesn't understand that they did anything wrong... so now they feel wronged by you.  And they get their own self-help justice.  But you felt they had deserved what you'd given 'em. So now you are the wronged party. And so forth, until you end up with a blood feud or a vendetta.

      People still afflicted with the culture of honor are easy to spot: They see insults and threats everywhere, they're quick to anger, and quickly resort to violence (verbal or physical) if they feel their reputation or safety is threatened... which is constantly, because they see insults and threats everywhere.  This sounds harsh, I know, but it has been borne out by history and by science.  I'm just being honest and saving the PC for another time.  

      A culture of honor makes sense in a lawless world.  That's why the pro-gun lobby focuses on trying to paint our world that way.  But despite the jeremiads from the pro-gun lobby ("The police won't protect you"), we don't actually live in such a world, unless we're in organized crime (where this culture still flourishes).  In fact, justice systems were created specifically to provide neutral arbitration of disputes so that people didn't seek "self-help justice".  And violence rates have dropped enormously since justice systems became prevalent.... in every part of the world.

      The culture of honor dovetails neatly with modern gun culture, which is obsessed with seeing threats and insults everywhere, and so cling tightly to the most reliable means of meeting those threats and insults:  An efficient killing machine.  

      In my opinion, the best way to reduce violence is to stamp out the culture of honor once and for all.  

      Nobody deserves poverty.

      by nominalize on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:40:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yep, that's straight out of the NRA playbook. (5+ / 0-)

      "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

      by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:57:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  a question: (5+ / 0-)
    If your gun is not concealed on your person, it is locked up and secured.  Get a gun safe, I would suggest something with a combination, kids have a way of finding keys.  If it's not in your holster (Which should be a model that covers the trigger), it's locked up.  
    If your gun is locked up in a safe, how can you shoot the posse of homicidal burglars who break into your house at 2am?

    Or do you recommend sleeping while wearing your holstered pistol, just in case?

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 02:16:40 AM PDT

  •  Welcome jackslogic (10+ / 0-)

    Don't worry, I'm telling you now, you don't belong here.  In short order you will be indirectly called a "nut" and told you have a little dick.   Your lifelong devotion to electing democrats matters not a bit.  

    The great many folks here want firearms banned from civilians. There's no way around that truth.  I have dozens of unique users who have stated as much or recc'd comments in affirmation just in the last 2 weeks.

    Since joining last year, I have developed a very different feeling to the democrats that belong here.  My eyes are wide open.

  •  You conclude that most people should have a gun. (5+ / 0-)

    England, Australia, and a lot of other countries concluded that almost nobody should have a gun.  They have a much lower gun death rate.  Curious what you might have to say about their strategy.

    Also, I believe the statistics show that suicide is the most common gun death, followed by murder of someone you know.  Having guns encourages this behavior while making self-defense with a gun possible, which is a much lower percentage occurrence.

    I wonder if the chance of getting accidentally shot is greater than having a bad guy shoot you - if so, you are increasing the chance of gun death by having a gun.

  •  Compare the diarist's pitch to LaPierre's: (10+ / 0-)
    “We know, in the world that surrounds us, there are terrorists and home invaders and drug cartels and car-jackers and knock-out gamers and rapers, haters, campus killers, airport killers, shopping mall killers, road-rage killers, and killers who scheme to destroy our country with massive storms of violence against our power grids, or vicious waves of chemicals or disease that could collapse the society that sustains us all,” he said.
    Same line of fear-mongering crap, only with an additional push for "training."
    •  Sorry, forgot to include this (5+ / 0-)

      link to the quote from "The NRA’s executive vice president and foaming mouthpiece, Wayne LaPierre."

      •  No way to start my day. (6+ / 0-)

        I'm going to try and re-group and pet my 4 legged protectors and forget about gun-carry. I'm 41 years older than the writer  and have traveled all over the U.S. with a big dog. I've slept in my truck, cheap motels and in tents. The only time I've felt threatened was when  I ate  in a restaurant filled with "deer hunters" who had too many bottles of beer.  Idaho.  I had the waitress bring me a to-go container and got out of there ASAP. I live in a rural area where everyone has a deer gun but they don't carry them around. I live alone and I'm not scared of my shadow.

        I won't read anymore gun diaries.

        One more very important thought for the diarist. Have you heard of Gabby Giffords?

        “Listen--are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life?” ― Mary Oliver

        by weezilgirl on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 05:19:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you do know Gabby Giffords is and was a gun owner (13+ / 0-)

          you know that she even owns the same pistol as she was shot with.

          You do know Laughner was crazier than a bedbug? And that the College let a loose cannon out to create mayhem?

          You know, just because you chose not to own a gun or carry one doesn't give you any moral superiority or cred.   It just says you made a different and equally legal choice than I did...that is all.....

          Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
          I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
          Emiliano Zapata

          by buddabelly on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:29:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You DO know that an (5+ / 1-)

            armed man came out of a shop and drew his weapon? Then he had the good sense to not shoot as he couldn't tell who was who.

            “Listen--are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life?” ― Mary Oliver

            by weezilgirl on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:34:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  He did not (5+ / 0-)

              draw his weapon. He in fact evaluated the situation correctly. Is that a problem?

              "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

              by happy camper on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 12:26:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  HR for the LIE. (0+ / 0-)

              He kept his pistol holstered.

              MLK Jr 1968 "Maybe we just have to admit that the day of violence is here, and maybe we have to just give up and let violence take its course. The nation won't listen to our voice - maybe it'll heed the voice of violence."

              by JayFromPA on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 12:35:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Great, he kept the gun holstered. (4+ / 0-)

                “Listen--are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life?” ― Mary Oliver

                by weezilgirl on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 01:22:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  exactly, he evaluated the situation and made (4+ / 0-)

                  the correct choice.  Just like the great majority, imo, of people who carry would in the same horrible situation.  The threat was ended, the man made the correct choice then continued on to help hold Laughner down after the citizenry had already jumped and disarmed him.  Yet somehow that is considered a bad thing?

                  People who legally carry are some of the safest people you know.  They commit crime at lower rates than police officers and every one I know including myself does more to go out of their way to avoid trouble than before they began to carry.  Contrary to some peoples opinion, most who carry recognize it as the responsibility it is and the stats bear that out.

                  And I'm not addressing the open rifle carrying idjits in
                  Tejas either.  There's such a thing as a unproductive protest and that is about the definition of it.  They actually had a reason originally, Texas does not allow open carry of sidearms, only long guns.  It was originally to try to push the state Leg to pass an open carry law.  Obviously, like I said, it hasn't quite worked as originally planned and whoever is coordinating that crap needs to be fired from his position whatever it is because it's not only ridiculous the way they do it, it is intimidating and imo a case could be made for Brandishing against them as they were handling the rifles...That's a huge no no ....carry fine but you have no reason to touch it outside the home or range unless there's a situation.

                  The average open carrier with a sidearm in a decent retention holster on the other hand is again, about the safest person you will be around that day....Criminals do not strap a gun openly on their side and they don't use holsters as they are almost impossible to ditch when running.  If you see someone with a pistol in nice leather, they will not cause you any harm at all.  I'd stake large on it and I only bet sure things. I know neither I nor any of my friends who choose to open carry on occasion would and it isn't done to intimidate, it's done for comfort.  Here with outdoor temps of 105+ , concealed carry can be very uncomfortable and when you sweat like I do, it becomes an equipment maintenance issue with some pistols..  To be quite honest, it's the rare person who even notices when I open carry (usually someone who carries themselves) and I find most have the same experience.

                  Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                  I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                  Emiliano Zapata

                  by buddabelly on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:39:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not sure it's a lie... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ParaHammer, ban nock, 43north, ER Doc

                I suspect it's merely ignorant bullshit, so I think we should give it the benefit of the doubt.
                While it is negligent (at best) libel against a truly brave man, it's sadly typical of the discourse here in this no longer reality-based community, and may not rise to the level of a HR.

                Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

                by Tom Seaview on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 02:08:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  eh I'd pull it, it doesn't rise to the level and (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ER Doc, Tom Seaview

                she admitted downthread that he did keep his weapon holstered so.....up to you but probably worth being....

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 04:47:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  It's an honor to be HRed by RKBA (3+ / 0-)

              Congratulations.

              And this one is ridiculous, they're desperate to find something. Even other RKBAers said it was wrong.

              Admins would support you 110% but they're really busy and don't like having to sort out dumb ones.

              Good job!

        •  The players are playing here (3+ / 0-)

          Don't expect consistency (I'd like to add more but will be scolded if I do, oh my), do take care of yourself

          What is reprehensible is playing the game with the costs incurred.

      •  good job, hearing the echoooooooo (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Calvino Partigiani
  •  just a few things (6+ / 0-)

    I  own and have used firearms by entire life and my family back through the generations. you don't have to defend the enjoyment of firearms, it is a right but one with heavy responsibility. a few comments
    1. if you can get a safely locked gun out and ready at 3am faster than dial 911 i applaud you-i do agree that trying to whisper answers to an operator with someone in the house is ridiculous-they have GPS- situation, name, send police,  is enough
    2. anyone who likes to carry is an idiot- I chose to carry several years inner city night shift, uncomfortable in so many ways
    3. it is the rare average man who beats a true sociopath- read the true old west, how many times do military and police officers-trained, practiced hit their target compared to missing?
    4. children play with guns-always.
    5. accidents happen
    6. if the Chinese invade they will not need a government gun owners list-they only need to check credit card records or cabela's catalogs but they will go house to house and if they think you might have one they will shoot you. Take out a hundred of them-what will they care?
    6. any yes, there are many sportsmen who vomit at being included with Ted nugent, and gun owners, including this one, who quit the NRA when it changed, and marksmen who shake their heads at shooting silhouettes of criminals, watermelons, bleeding torsos

    •  It might shock you to know that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ER Doc

      people who choose to live not as you choose to live are neither stupid for doing so nor immoral.  Neither your form nor the religious form of moral busybody has a claim on how to best live that needs to be imposed on others by force in violation of their rights.

    •  It's worth noting (0+ / 0-)
      1. if you can get a safely locked gun out and ready at 3am faster than dial 911 i applaud you-i do agree that trying to whisper answers to an operator with someone in the house is ridiculous-they have GPS- situation, name, send police,  is enough
      that the critical factor in saving your life or the life of a loved one is likely to be the 911 response time, not the amount of time it takes to dial 911.
           I'm pretty sure that I can dial 911 and get out a gun several minutes before the police arrive at my city place, and probably 20 minutes at my place in the country.

      -7.25, -6.26

      We are men of action; lies do not become us.

      by ER Doc on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 05:37:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  huh... (2+ / 0-)
    I believe that self defense and the protection of ones family falls to the man (or woman)of the house.
    Why would you put "or woman" in parenthesis? Why assume only one member of a household is capable of defending themselves and a family at all?
  •  I appreciate your perspective from another owner, (9+ / 0-)

    LEO, trainer, and one who also describes themselves as "not an expert".  Your credentials are far more impressive than mine, and I respect that even though I too have many years of formal training and do not carry as a general rule, although my friends do (but I do  have my CCW), do not respect the NRA,  or find comfort in the 2nd Amendment.   I need and require the use of firearms for predator protection for our livelihood of livestock farming/ranching, occasional hunting, an at one time competition shooting.  Mine are locked up even though we do not have children in the household, but rather from theft.  Firearms and prescription medications are a "hot commodity" where we live for break ins.  

    No drugs in our medicine chest, and a very strong, hidden safe:  No worries.

    Most where we live in rural America are firearm owners as well as they too farm/ranch, and have their concerns about why they feel the need to own firearms.  That is not my business, but there hasn't been an act of violence from a discharged firearm where we live for as long as I can remember.

    Hate to say this, but the logic and insight from experience one brings to this contentious discussion for reasons of enlightening others and educating them will frustrate you as it does me as there is a small minority that will never even entertain, give thought to your ideas or comments on the subject, and will insult you, label you, mock you, and maybe even HR you all from their myopic, and close minded perspective.  Sad to think that a KOS  brother or sister would treat another one like that when many, if not all on this site agree with each other 99% on other matters of importance regarding the betterment of our society.

    Sad, but that's the negative aspect of human nature, and will always be I'm afraid.

    None the less, thank you for your input regarding this topic.  I have all but given up on the few that are immature about this topic as some are just "bomb throwers" looking for REC's to their comments for their inflammatory and precocious comments from those that do the same and act as a flock of sheep without respect of, or for another persons input/opinions.

    So be it.

    Be safe out there.

    “My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there." - Rumi

    by LamontCranston on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:18:33 AM PDT

  •  I am now living in Spain, (6+ / 0-)

    where gun laws are very strict.  Spanish people (including women alone) walk around the city at all hours of the day and night without fear, unlike what people do in the U.S.  This sort of gun control makes me and my children feel much safer than I ever did in the U.S., and in this respect, it is much more pleasant to live in Spain than in the U.S.  

    Strict gun control improves the quality of life enormously for just about everyone.  I hope the day will come when politics does not make it impossible in the U.S.

  •  Repackaged NRA advertising (6+ / 0-)

    Thanks for playing.

    Your entire premise - that everyone should have a gun - is far, far, far from where we need to go as civilization.  You want to take us backwards.  No thanks.

    "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.: Maya Angelou

    by PsychoSavannah on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:38:05 AM PDT

    •  You must have missed (8+ / 0-)

      this part:

      Also, assess yourself.  Do you have a short temper?  Illinois has had concealed carry now for 5 months and no one has been shot by a concealed carry permit holder. If you have a tendency towards violence when angry, do yourself and society a favor and pass on the gun and go to pepper spray.  

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:08:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't miss anything (6+ / 0-)

        The very concept that everyone should have a gun because there is a boogeyman around every corner is nothing but marketing.  The entire diary is about that.

        "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.: Maya Angelou

        by PsychoSavannah on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:57:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  She didn't miss anything, like clockwork... (6+ / 0-)

        if you have a legitimate position, present it fairly, logically and reasonably, you must be a paid troll working for the arms industry.

        These types of distraction are only meant to do one thing, shut down discussion and replace it with their talking points and fear driven agenda.

        There is no desire to find compromise on this issue, you will say and do as we command, period.

        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

        by gerrilea on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:11:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not that. It's the mindset that a gun (4+ / 0-)

          is an answer for anything, let alone everything.  

          "Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.: Maya Angelou

          by PsychoSavannah on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 10:27:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe we read two different diaries. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Kentucky Kid, ER Doc

            I think he said that you should stop, assess the situation, take license plate # down, call the police and to be a good witness.

            Each situation is unique and the arguments was straight forward.  

            I can only surmise that you didn't like the fact that this diarist supports all Americans having a tool in their tool shed.

            How many Americans don't have a fork, knife or spoon?  They are not necessary in our "civilized" society but they do make eating spaghetti much easier.

            :)

            Take a step back and think for a minute.  I didn't read anywhere in this diary where firearms were "the answer to everything".

            You may not like the reality we exist in but if you allow for LEO to be armed, then so should all Americans.  

            Our government, including Police Chief's, have stated that even AR15's are personal defense weapons, including 30 round clips.

            In paragraph 3.1 under requirements and testing standards we read…

                DHS and its components have a requirement for a 5.56x45mm NATO, select-fire firearm suitable for personal defense use in close quarters and/or when maximum concealment is required.

            Isn’t that inconvenient for the gun control politicians? In requirement paragraph 3.9.10, they find a need for a 30-round magazine.

                The action shall be capable of accepting all standard NATO STANAG 20 and 30 round M16 magazines (NSN 1005-00-921-5004) and Magpul 30 round PMAG (NSN 1005-01-576-5159). The magazine well shall be designed to allow easy insertion of a magazine.

            Shouldn't the average American be able to protect themselves with the same tools?

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 10:55:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  You must have missed (5+ / 0-)

      this part:

      Also, assess yourself.  Do you have a short temper?  Illinois has had concealed carry now for 5 months and no one has been shot by a concealed carry permit holder. If you have a tendency towards violence when angry, do yourself and society a favor and pass on the gun and go to pepper spray.  

      "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

      by happy camper on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:10:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Did you read the entire diary? Is that all you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ER Doc

      comprehended from his point of view?

      Really?

      Geesh.

      “My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there." - Rumi

      by LamontCranston on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:14:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yep, strange diary - sounds like an NRA type (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coquiero

      trying to sound like a DKoS RKBAer whose failing miserably.

      "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

      by We Shall Overcome on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:06:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  thanks jack, great diary (5+ / 0-)

    Im a fetishist, of sorts
    for nancy pelosi,
    or any other STRONG democrat
    being OUR speaker in the house of reps

    Unless the demos lighten up on gun rights
    we will never regain our majority in the house
    its a big country
    self defense means something when youre
    more than 2 minutes away from 911 responders

    Who is mighty ? One who turns an enemy into a friend !

    by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:26:15 AM PDT

  •  Hey, you can join RKBA and become a member (5+ / 0-)

    of a select group of oppressed brothers bravely representing the NRA at dkos. If you are unaware of who these intrepid yet downtrodden people are, just look at some of their posts in your diary.  

    They also have

    dedicated most of my adult life to understanding the gun
    It is amazing to read how you all feel so profoundly about guns.
    It really is a fetish or addiction or something.

    I suppose a musician might talk about their instrument that way. But the music a gun plays is much different.

    "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

    by ranger995 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 08:32:28 AM PDT

    •  He joined about the time RKBA went quiet (5+ / 0-)

      So maybe he's unaware of their works.

      He joined 2 months ago. That's not long here,

    •  You know, ranger995, that opposition to (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kasoru, ban nock, ER Doc

      understanding inanimate objects, their proper use, maintenance and storage? That's a fetish too -- and here at DK it's become the last acceptable bigotry.

      Or should I say celebrated bigotry?

      There are five kinds of people it's ok to hate at DK.

      1. Serving members of the military not yet KIA, because they're mercenaries who volunteered to go overseas and kill innocents.

      2. likewise vets not killed by the crookedness at the big mismanaged facilities where lying administrators cooked the books and prevented real people from receiving timely care they'd earned.

      3. Rural people 'cause we live in "red" states.

      4. People who live in the South 'cause we're apparently all throwbacks to the slaveowners, regardless of our individual color, economic status or outlook.

      5. Believers in the whole of the Constitution, not just the parts we like, because we're gun fetishists and murderous thugs looking for a place to cause mayhem.

      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:40:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's a pity party (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero, WakeUpNeo

        I bet it takes years of counseling, embracing, and caressing to truly understand a gun.

        "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

        by ranger995 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:31:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I bet it takes years of loathing and fear (0+ / 0-)

          to adapt to the notion that one tool is fine (say a hammer or a knife) while another's mere existence creates a miasma of criminal behavior all around it (say a hatchet -- remember Lizzie Borden?).

          LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 11:09:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you for your diary (4+ / 0-)

    Unfortunately, as you have seen, there are members here who have an automatic reaction to any diary that attempts to find common ground on gun issues.

    As far as I can tell your diary advocates training, self evaluation, securing your weapons,  and taking responsibility for your guns.  IMO, these are good common grounds that most of us here can agree with.

    Where you lose a lot of members is the assessment that a bad guy is lurking around every corner.  If someone points a gun at me and asks for my wallet, they are going to get it.  If they break into my house they can have anything they want before the police get there.  I am not going to put my family at risk unless there is an actual threat.

    With your background, I am not concerned with you carrying a gun.  The ones that scare me are the people who are actively looking for an excuse to use their guns.  These are the ones who shoot innocent bystanders or even themselves.

  •  Thanks for this diary (4+ / 0-)

    I have been considering buying a self defense policy. I had not heard of Second Call before. They do look like the better choice, I just signed up and gave DKos credit for a reference. Hope DK gets a fiduciary kickback of some sort from them.

    "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." —Twain, Mark

    by not4morewars on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:00:46 AM PDT

  •  Thank you for the post, jackslogic (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LamontCranston, ban nock, ER Doc

    A great deal of sensible advice here.  I differ on one point.  You basically say "everyone should have a gun except...."  and I view it as "no one should have a gun unless....."  I wonder how much distance is between these viewpoints.

    And something that puzzles me:  Mandatory insuarnce seems like a good sense provision, both from the POV of the gun owner and the public.  But, we have heard here time and again that insurance is not feasible, so it is quite interesting to me to see you saying that policies are available and affordable.  Where is the disconnect?

    Finally, welcome to commenting and diarying.  You will find that there are a lot of very good people on both sides of the Great Gun Debate.

    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

    by Joy of Fishes on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 09:47:05 AM PDT

    •  I'm not Jack but I'll give it a shot anyway, about (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ER Doc, Joy of Fishes

      insurance.

      http://www.secondcalldefense.org/

      Shooting someone in self defence can cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. Insurance gives you quick legal assistance and help paying the bills. No insurance covers illegal acts, that goes for insurance for anything.

      Most homeowner policies already cover theft.

      Mandatory would just be an impediment to ownership. Most gun owners don't carry. The chances of self defence use is so low around here that you're probably more likely to win the lottery. Probably where Jack lives it's much much higher.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 02:57:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Additionally, a number of the posts here (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Joy of Fishes, ban nock

      suggesting mandatory insurance have insisted that the insurance cover liability for crimes committed with the insured gun, whether committed by the gun owner or by another party after the weapon is stolen. No insurance company will cover illegal acts.

      -7.25, -6.26

      We are men of action; lies do not become us.

      by ER Doc on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 05:26:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can at times be deeply cynical. (0+ / 0-)

        I have to wonder just how hard the insurer's lawyer is going to try to defend a defensive shooter when success means paying out money.  

        Do you ever check your kosmail?

        Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

        by Joy of Fishes on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:45:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not often enough... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joy of Fishes

          For some reason, the "messages" line never says there's a new message. Maybe it isn't supposed to? But I don't see messages unless I actively look for them.

          -7.25, -6.26

          We are men of action; lies do not become us.

          by ER Doc on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 06:59:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The new message indicator only shows ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc

            ... when someone sends a message just to you or responds to a message you sent, whether to an individual or a group.  It doesn't indicate new group messages.  You have some of the latter.  No worries if you are too busy.

            Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.

            by Joy of Fishes on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:27:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Great post, jackslogic. I very much appreciate ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, ban nock

    Great post, jackslogic. I very much appreciate a rational and well-informed discussion on this topic. It is rare on the internet these days. I only slightly differ with you on one point. I would feel very much obliged to defend an innocent life even if I didn't know the intended victim. That's just me and, yes, I am aware of the incredibly difficult position that would put me in. I just can't see how I would ever forgive myself if I watched a murder occur when I could have stopped it. But I really liked your post and I am very pleased to see your perspective. I also learned a few valuable points in the process.

    •  Curious, Libgunowner... Just how many (5+ / 0-)

      murders have you actually witnessed first-hand? How many have you "stopped"? How many more do you plan to stop in the future?

      Just how do you plan to stop them?

      I just can't see how I would ever forgive myself if I watched a murder occur when I could have stopped it.
    •  Thanks libgun... Glad you enjoyed i (0+ / 0-)

      I do want to clarify.  I am urging extreme caution before getting involved in a situation where the details aren't clear.  A good Samaritan approach should be a steady escalation.  If you witness a rape for example, an escalation may look like:

      1.  Yell "Stop, get off her, I'm calling the police".  
      2.  Start dialing 911
      - A Rapist will likely not continue the act if someone is standing, watching, and dialing 911
      3.  If the attacker stops, gets off the woman, and runs give a good description, direction of travel, and assist the woman (after all, the reason you got involved in the first place was to help the woman, not shoot someone, right?)
      4.  If the attacker, gets off the woman, pulls a knife, and charges at you, pull your firearm and defend yourself.  

      To many people jump straight to the gun when the threat could have been stopped with less.  As a rule, I suggest people ask themselves, what would I do if I didn't have a firearm on me.  When the answer becomes "Die" or "Watch someone else die" See step #4 above, then its time to pull the gun.  

  •  The gun is to self protection as the Vegomatic is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coquiero, WakeUpNeo, a2nite

    to chopping onions.

    Hype, hype, hype. TV, TV, TV.

    The gun is not, nor has it ever been 360 degree 24/7 self protection, not even close. That is a lie.

    Child forgotten in car? -- Use open source E-Z Baby Saver -- Andrew Pelham, 11yo inventor E-Z Baby Saver

    by 88kathy on Thu Jun 26, 2014 at 07:52:34 PM PDT

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