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This was the prelude to an intended laugh-line at the International Conference on Men's Issues, a men's rights gathering held outside of Detroit this weekend. And according to Adam Serwer, the laughs at the expense of rape victims were plentiful:

“The vast majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyer’s remorse from alcohol-fueled, promiscuous behavior involving murky lines of consent on both sides,” [National Post columnist Barbara Kay] said, drawing chuckles from the audience. “It’s true. It’s their get-out-of-guilt-free card, you know like Monopoly.” The chuckles turned to guffaws.
These guffaws came from a collection of men's rights activists who claim, as one of their many grievances, to be "unfairly stereotyped in America as violent sexual predators." And yet here they were, laughing off thousands of raped college women as nothing more than guilt-ridden coeds.

It's precisely this sort of blithe dismissal that feeds a dangerous culture of rape in America, and is partially why the FBI failed to report a million sexual assault incidents from 1995 to 2012, particularly on college campuses. How could such a staggering number have gone unreported? Because many police officers treat rape victims in a similar fashion to men's rights activists gathered at a chest-beating conference, with sinister consequences:

Victims of sexual assault still encounter hostility, doubt and aggressive questioning. When they do not conform to officers’ preconceived ideas about how rape victims “should” act, officers’ implicit biases come into play and, as a result, victims often feel they are the ones being investigated. These issues are often compounded by racism. Native American women, who suffer the highest rates of sexual assault in the country, describe being questioned about mental illness, drug use, alcohol abuse and more when reporting assaults. While some jurisdictions have substantially improved their policies, with many women reporting compassionate treatment by police, many others continue to report the opposite.

These preconceptions, rooted in myths about rape and a still-powerful cultural predisposition to blame victims, are serious and consequential. Police officers display the same implicit biases as the general public, a tendency also evident at colleges and universities, where campus police are often more focused on investigating the credibility of victims than in whether or not their vulnerability was exploited in a predatory way. Studies show a strong correlation among police officers between rape-myth acceptance, sexist attitudes and an unwillingness to process or investigate reported assaults.

So a note to men's rights activists from a fellow man: women would be much safer in this country if we all actually were stereotyped as a violent, sexual offenders. You know why? It would mean that the very real rape crisis in this country would be on full display and recognized for what it truly is: unspeakable.

So instead of worrying about being cast as a sexual predator, stand up and defend rape victims when they are attacked and delegitimized. Instead of laughing at jokes with women who have been violently raped as punch lines, raise those oppressed voices of yours and proudly state, I will not be stereotyped as a sexual offender, and thus I will not laugh like one.

Once this happens on a societal scale – once we stop attacking the countless women who have been raped in this country and instead resolve to seek justice – you in the so-called men's rights movement won't have to worry as much about being stereotyped as violent, sexual offenders.

Because maybe, just maybe, the stereotype won't actually hold. At least, that's the world for which we should all be striving.

In other words: quit laughing you pricks.

--§--

What Do You Buy For the Children
David Harris-Gershon is author of the memoir What Do You Buy the Children of the Terrorist Who Tried to Kill Your Wife?, recently published by Oneworld Publications.


Originally posted to David Harris-Gershon (The Troubadour) on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 08:50 PM PDT.

Also republished by Writing by David Harris Gershon and This Week in the War on Women.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Thanks, karmsy. (20+ / 0-)

      "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

      by David Harris Gershon on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 09:06:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The only people who are getting stigmatized as (29+ / 0-)

        "sexual predators" are gay people, actually. Most women do not look at every guy and think "rapist" But how many gay people are persecuted and called "child molesters" and same-sex "rapists", not because they have actually done anything, but simply because it is assumed.

        I am sorry but I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a bunch of men who don't know how to control themselves. Just because women speak up about rape does not mean that they are "man-haters" If there are ANY organizations out there that say ALL MEN are rapists then I haven't heard of it! ONLY THEN might they have a complaint.

        In fact that argument is just another way to try to shut women up. It is just another way to try to discredit women by saying "Oh they say WE ARE ALL like that!" Poor me, pity me, we are all oppressed by women!

        The fact is that rape culture IS real. Thank you for this diary.

        I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

        by Pixie5 on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 12:36:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I assume there are a smaller number of predators (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NancyWH, DavidMS, Rogneid

          who are responsible for committing multiple assaults and rapes. Are these men tired of being stereotyped putting themselves in that group.

          •  Yes, that's true. 6% of American men are rapists, (5+ / 0-)

            yet they are allowed to assault 6 victims each, on average. The percentage of rapists who are never incarcerated is 97%.

            •  Fascinating that 94% of American men are NOT (0+ / 0-)

              rapists.  Where do you get that statistic?  Now how to nail the 6%?  Do they stop raping if castrated?

              •  I assume you are being a bit snarky but... (0+ / 0-)

                I will answer your question. Not if they can get prescribed hormones! And "chemical" castration works only if the person continues taking the drug.

                The real problem is that rape really isn't about sex anyway. It is about using sex as a weapon. Would castration help when the perp can simply find some other way to hurt women? Basically rapists hate women and that anger would not go away just because they are unable to perform the sex act.

                Lock them up and throw away the key!

                I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

                by Pixie5 on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 11:25:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  No, chemical castration has a fairly low succes... (0+ / 0-)

                No, chemical castration has a fairly low success rate, as I understand it, and actual castration is only slightly higher. My information might be out of date though, it's not a subject I follow.

            •  And the ones who ARE incarcerated are let loose... (0+ / 0-)

              to rape again and again.

              I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

              by Pixie5 on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 11:18:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  There's a great article on rape culture... (9+ / 0-)

          ... written by Jeopardy champion Arthur Chu to his fellow nerds trying to explain to them the problem.

          The day I'll consider justice blind is the day that a rape defendant's claim of "She consented to the sex" is treated by the same legal standards as a robbery defendant's claim of "He consented to give me the money": as an affirmative defense.

          by Rei on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:05:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I have been told, repeatedly, that "all men are (0+ / 0-)

          potential rapists".  It is amazing that you have never heard this anti-male attack. This is a basic accusation.  Goggle it and you will find it easily.

          If you try to discuss responsibility when both people are too drunk/high to have good judgement, this is the anti-male answer.  Basically it is the idea that the only person who required to be responsible is the male.  

          I stay away from pick-up bars, drunk/high parties, Frat houses, etc.  In my own apartment, a drunk/high woman's boyfriend - out of consideration for me -  refused to have sex with her in the bed next to mine. She locked him out, snuggled up to me on my bed and woke me by rubbing my neck, back working fast to my privates.  I was sober, so as gently as I could, I pushed her out and locked the door.

          But suppose I had been drunk too and accepted her advances?
          It is absurd to paint me as a rapist, and her as an innocent victim.

          •  "all men are potential rapists" (0+ / 0-)

            That isn't an accusation. It is a warning to be careful. Everytime a decent man walks a woman to her car he is acknowledging that fact, is he not?

            Frankly I have often been TOO TRUSTING. An example is a man that I did not know well who claimed that he wanted to look at my apartment as I was moving out soon. When he got inside he barely glanced at the apartment before starting his moves on me. Fortunately he stopped when I told him to.

            I can think of other cases where I could have been more careful and so I can only say that I have been lucky.

            In the case that you describe, no I would not consider that rape. A woman saying "no", drunk or not, I would consider to be rape. Also a woman who is passed out drunk.

            I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

            by Pixie5 on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 11:43:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Tipped, recced AND hotlisted... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        patcii

        I've been raped, multiple times, and the one case that went to trial when I was seven--seven years old--the Defence still tried to make me look like the instigator, actually offering what he thought was a plausible argument that "maybe I was precocious" and somehow seduced a man in his thirties.  

        And this was in Canada, the country of supposed mild-mannered, law-abiding, "nice" people.  Ugh. O___O

        Fuck you, Rape Culture.

        If we acknowledge our fears, then we must also acknowledge the consequences of our actions when we react to those fears. Hate is based on fear, fear comes from a lack of understanding. When you understand, it is more difficult to hate.

        by TheProgressiveAlien on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 10:19:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •   had plenty of ftiends with "buyers remorse" (27+ / 0-)

      after an alcohol-fueled encounter. None of them called it rape, they called it a stupid choice.
      Descriptions of a stupid choice and rape, including date rape, are nothing alike even if they start with drinks and a consensual kiss. Evidently the speaker and the laughers think that if someone drinks and kisses consent is too blurry to believe that NO and STOP means no and stop.

      •  I would think a number of rape victims (5+ / 0-)

        have buyers remorse in terms of their choices and blame themselves- looking at what they could have done to prevent it. Not having a drink- not going out with that guy- not allowing themselves to be vulnerable no matter how many times they said no.

      •  MRAs are obsessed with trying to make the (9+ / 0-)

        concept of consent some "blurry" thing, rather than, "If you don't get affirmative, withdrawable consent by a party capable within a reasonable time before the act, every time, then it's rape."

        They portray "consent" as thought it has to be some sort of signed contract, a straw man to ridicule it, when the standard is, as with almost everything, the standard of whether a "reasonable person" would interpret something as consent (for example, kissing you back and pulling you closer).

        They portray "capable of consent" as if it's so tricky. Dude, if she can no longer hold a coherent conversation, she's not capable of consent. If she's perfectly cogent and you have no other reasonable reason to suspect otherwise, then she is. What's hard about that?

        They portray "withdrawable" as if that's some sort of onerous overimposition. Likewise with "affirmative". Likewise with 'every time".

        One of their favorite cases is, "Hey, my girlfriend likes it when I wake her up with sex!"  Fine, either get consent before she goes to sleep, or wake her up enough that she can consent (and again, none of these "written contract" straw men about what consent is). Don't just act like because she said one time she likes to be woken up to sex that gives you an unlimited license to have sex with her sleeping body until the end of time.

        The day I'll consider justice blind is the day that a rape defendant's claim of "She consented to the sex" is treated by the same legal standards as a robbery defendant's claim of "He consented to give me the money": as an affirmative defense.

        by Rei on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:15:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  MRAs think "blurry" consent is a bad thing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo, Old Sailor

          The idea that consent is something subjective and unilaterally withdrawable at any time and for any reason is precisely what they see as dangerous and unfair.  They want to treat it like a contract imposing obligations on both parties because their straw man is actually a straw woman: an emotionally unstable solipsist for whom "Rape is not what he does; it's how you feel about it!"

          They really think that women can go from enjoying themselves one minute to calling the cops the next and can make the switch over something as physically trivial but emotionally significant as a less than elegant word or a clumsy caress. And in their minds that's only when women don't just lead men on to get free food and entertainment but never had any intention of sleeping with him and think that he has no right to be upset about being used.

          Reciprocity is the central idea at work: no, women do not get to just sit back and lap up the man's time, money, and heart like it's owed to her; yes, men deserve some kind of reward for all the trouble they've gone to make you happy; and yes, men who are committed to giving without any expectation of getting back are suckers and victims and need men's rights.  That's the essence of the violation of the [implied] sexual contract: men are saying and doing all the right things (for various definitions of 'right') and are getting nothing back from the woman - not sex, not love, not a life partner, not nothing.

          Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

          by Visceral on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 12:40:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No is blurry, Yes is crystal clear. (6+ / 0-)

            If she says "no", that's not entirely clear.

            If she says "yes" at any point, even to the date or to a kiss, that clearly means go forward from that point on.

            Consent is only considered clear to a rapist (and their apologists) if it fits their desired outcome.

          •  When I go on a date, I don't expect anything... (0+ / 0-)

            ...more than a good time with a potential friend.  The sensible approach to "who owes what" in that scenario is that you go "halfers" on the date's expenses if who owes what is so effing important to ya.  But, really, keeping score?  Is that what is going on there?

            My spending time with that person in no way entitles them to a "reward" such as sex, and if it becomes obvious to me that this was their agenda (and I will notice FAST), that person gets no time with me at all.  Ever.

            My time is just as precious as yours.  Here, turn it on it's gendered head: I've given you my time, chatted with you, ate dinner with you, maybe had a few drinks.  I should get something in return, shouldn't I?  Maybe I should take you home and then demand that you to have sex with me, since that's the whole point of this, isn't it?

            No way, buddy.  BOTH people have given their time on any date--it's an already equal exchange, and if someone thinks that they deserve any kind of "reward" on top of that for deigning to spend time with me, they get a stiff boot in their backside for being an entitled pick who believes their time and precious presence is worth more than mine. My body is not a prize for some idiot who thinks with the contents of his pants and believes his wants trump mine.

            Fuck this sort of entitlement nonsense.  And fuck you, Rape Culture.

            If we acknowledge our fears, then we must also acknowledge the consequences of our actions when we react to those fears. Hate is based on fear, fear comes from a lack of understanding. When you understand, it is more difficult to hate.

            by TheProgressiveAlien on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 11:15:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  That concept doesn't pass the slightest muster (16+ / 0-)

      I live in Iceland. There's little sexual shame here. We have the lowest average age for loss of virginity in the OECD and the third highest number of sexual partners. Nearly 90% of first children are born out of wedlock. It's quite accurate that most relationships here go along the lines of 1) Meet, 2) Have sex, 3) Get to know each other while having more sex; 4) Start going out on dates. 5) Have kids. 6) Optionally get married. It's often said that "dating doesn't exist here", at least not as it's known in a lot of other countries. We had the world's first lesbian prime minister and it was  a non-issue in the campaign. We passed same-sex marriage rights without a single vote in opposition. One of our country's largest annual festivals is Reykjavík's pride fest, with a third of the country attending each year. If you're a teenager or adult, it's pretty much just assumed that you're sleeping with someone, and nobody really cares.

      And rape is still a huge f*ing problem here. So how exactly is this "sexual shame" that's the problem?

      The day I'll consider justice blind is the day that a rape defendant's claim of "She consented to the sex" is treated by the same legal standards as a robbery defendant's claim of "He consented to give me the money": as an affirmative defense.

      by Rei on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:00:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Fascinating comment. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Onomastic, Rogneid, JVolvo

        I think a big part of the issue here is the strong strain of Puritanism--mistrust of pleasure-for-its-own-sake--in American culture. You can see this is the desert aisle. Check out the the words the manufacturers put on the mass-produced goodies, to sell them: "sinfully rich," "decadent." Enjoyment is somehow the opposite of moral rectitude.

        Now, in other societies, pleasure doesn't have this moral taint. People don't see sex as having a down-side. It doesn't involve somebody "losing," so of course, it's strictly consensual. Rape is a non-issue.

        It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

        by karmsy on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:21:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not THE problem, it's an excuse. (10+ / 0-)

        It's a way to blame the victim instead of the rapist.  I know very little of the rape problem in Iceland so maybe you should elaborate.  Here in the US, the easiest way to avoid a rape charge and actual punishment is to blame the victim.  

        America, where a rising tide lifts all boats! Unless you don't have a boat...uh...then it lifts all who can swim! Er, uh...um...and if you can't swim? SHAME ON YOU!

        by Back In Blue on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 10:10:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  As per the title of my post, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TKO333, raynmakr

          "(The concept that most rape reports are just sexual shame) doesn't past the slighest muster." So I'm not sure why you wrote a post that comes across as attacking mine.

          Yes, blaming the victim is a standard approach everywhere, sadly.

          Iceland has similar rates of rape to the US, despite not having the US's puritanical sex culture. Which belies the claim that most rape reports are really just due to sexual shame. One of our annual festivals, Þjóðhátíð í Eyjum, is known for two things - one being a giant party, and two, being the site of half a dozen rapes every year. Despite that, last year the committee running it appointed appointed Egill "Gillz" Einarsson to host it - a guy accused of rape and author of a horribly misogynistic and rape-apologistic book (among other things). A guy who (among other things) described witnessing the rape of a man at a party and thought it was funny, cracking jokes that he "walked like a penguin" afterwards.

          The day I'll consider justice blind is the day that a rape defendant's claim of "She consented to the sex" is treated by the same legal standards as a robbery defendant's claim of "He consented to give me the money": as an affirmative defense.

          by Rei on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 02:48:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Curious (0+ / 0-)

        Since rape is a crime of control and violence, does the acceptance of sex without shame decrease the likelihood of rape just by not satisfying the rapists' urge to harm?

        We are not a kind people, by and large.  Most Americans don't realize that the test of empathy is not what we do for members of our own inner circle, but what we do for any person that we see in need of help.  There are kind people in this country, but not in great number.  There are many who think they are kind, because they would do anything for their friends, but who wouldn't lift a finger to help somebody from another race, religion or political perspective who is in dire need.  Most alarmingly, there are many who believe that the way to win in a cruel world is to care the least about others, while amassing as much wealth and/or weaponry as possible, withdrawing from the possibility of a better world and cheering on leaders who embark on "preemptive wars."

        This lack of kindness is pervasive, infecting our daily lives and our political will, in areas from rape culture to road rage, to environmental protection, health care, welfare, education . . . on and on.

        We need to find ways to train children to be empathetic, but with so many adults equating it with "being a sucker", I don't have much hope for the country overall.

  •  Geez Louise. (27+ / 0-)

    What kind of a pathetic piece of s#it would laugh at "jokes" like that?

    And where did they get them? Did they rummage through Bruce Tinsley's "discard" file?

    Patriotism is the FIRST refuge of the scoundrel.

    by Tony Seybert on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 09:17:10 PM PDT

  •  a google search reveals (surprise) that (18+ / 0-)

    Barbara Kay is a RWNJ of the first water.

    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

    by BlackSheep1 on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 09:19:28 PM PDT

  •  Re (15+ / 0-)
    So a note to men's rights activists from a fellow man: women would be much safer in this country if we all actually were stereotyped as a violent, sexual offenders. You know why? It would mean that the very real rape crisis in this country would be on full display and recognized for what it truly is: unspeakable.
    I can't believe that deep, intelligent, and thoughtful DKos writers that I respect post nonsense like this.

    If all men were stereotyped as violent sexual offenders (falsely, I might add), women would be unnecessarily terrorized for their whole lives being afraid of men who would never harm them in a million years.

    There is simply no reason for people to live in fear the way you suggest they do. Your position (facetious though it may be) encourages a deeply disturbing schism and unnecessary mutual antagonism between men and women.

    Some men are dangerous (like some women). Most aren't. Other than the usual amount of prudent caution, there is simply little to be afraid of, especially since sexual assault rates are at their lowest reported rates in decades (which means they are likely at their lowest rates in US history).

    "Be afraid, be very afraid" is not a message I believe it is responsible to send women. "Be prudent" is a better message. "You're a bunch of sex-crazed criminals" is equally not a good message to send men. "Treat women with respect" is a better one.

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 09:34:21 PM PDT

  •  These so-called "men's rights activists" (15+ / 0-)

    are as bad as rapists, IMO.  I would treat these people as guilty  until proven otherwise.

  •  "Accidental rape" (31+ / 0-)

    the fear that some sexual encounter will lead an innocent man to prison, needs to go away.  It is this fear that leads normal, not-rapist men to be apologists for rape.

    It is shocking to be told that 25% of women on campus have been sexually assaulted.  Some quickly conclude that 25% of men must somehow be rapists. However, studies indicate that rapists do not stop at one victim.  They rape over and over again, perfecting their technique as they go. Most men are not rapists, just like most adults are not pedophiles. But a rapist has many victims, as a pedophile does.

    These guys are really not "guys," guys. They aren't like you.  They capitalize on your emotions and they play up the fear of false accusation.  In reality, they are predators who get off on degrading and humiliating women.

    "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

    by Reepicheep on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 09:57:29 PM PDT

  •  I'm looking forward to running into a... (20+ / 0-)

    ..."men's rights" group.  I want to look into their minds and try to see what sort of world framework they have.  I also wonder if this condition is acquired or genetic.  

    Where do these types come from intrigues me.

    I checked a website linked from the article and found this video. representative of many they use to prove that many women are against feminism;

    Her ignorance of the current facts with sex inequality are stunning.

    It reminds me of the ad funded by the Koch brothers against single payer a few years ago.  They found the one Canadian against single payer and put that video all over the TV.  The single payer movement couldn't afford one ad.  These guys love it when they find one woman that they can use to push their misogynist agenda.

    No men in any of my circles think like these idiots.  So I need to go outside and perhaps infiltrate them.

    Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

    by Shockwave on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 10:09:23 PM PDT

    •  'Puerarchy'/Red Pill/MRA teachings online (9+ / 0-)

      Like you, Shockwave, I've begun studying the Toxic Masculinity sites and their teachings -- with some relief provided by sites that expose or mock them like WeHuntedTheMammoth.com.

      A number of comments in this thread are coming so close to quoting these Toxic Masculinity sites verbatim, they should, by rights, blockquote some parts of their comments and provide links to their sources.

      So far, I've only scratched the surface in my study, and have focused on the 'Red Pill' sites -- 4 found so far.  If you read the Red Pill 'Constitution' below, you will find many of the objectionable statements made so far in this thread in Red Pill's governing ideology:

      Reddit 'The Red Pill'; motherlode; has 'required theory reading' and links to 'good sites'; this page is also the 'Constitution' of the next site]

      http://www.reddit.com/...

      'Red Pill Constitution' --
      http://illimitablemen.com/...

      I posted two sites for the 'Constitution' so those who don't want to go to Reddit can read it.  Whichever site you choose, please look at the training materials offered to their readers in the sidebars.

      Please do not let the word-salad lull you into thinking that the leaders of this movement are stupid and unsphisticated.  'Sophist-icated'  is exactly what these leaders are:  Masters of Sophistry.

      The link below is written with extreme skill.  The author has taken every standard argument of current and historical feminism and turned those arguments inside out, so (for Red Pill believers) those arguments mean the inverse of what they mean when we say them.  Persons who have been inculcated by this thinking will hear the inverse of that argument when we bring that argument out.  (Once you've read the Constitution and the article, you can see this inversion happening in this thread.)

      Given this inversion, the very fact that we use a existing feminist-derived argument proves that we are hopelessly stupid Blue Pill-ers (from The Matrix: The Red Pill grants new 'enlightenment', Blue Pill returns you to being a mindless device).  Our use of existing feminist-derived arguments reinforces their inculcated beliefs and proves to them that they are 'right', and superior.

      'Puerarchy' connected to Red Pill & Illimitable; this article connects Feminism/Socialism and 'progressives'; suggests anti-abortionist stance;  This is very skillfully written!

      http://puerarchy.com/...

      Since some of the 'Red Pill Women' arguments have already arisen in this thread, here's a link to a resource-page, with training materials for those women --
      And yes, Red Pill Women, w some of the same sidebar titles but also some woman-specific training materials --

      http://www.reddit.com/...

      The Isla Vista killer's video and manuscript revealed a strange psychology, so strange that it has as yet defied definition.  Extreme narcissism was evident even to the layperson.  Red Pill men self-select themselves into Red Pill sites, and the sites then train these men in the 'Dark Triad' traits and skills of Narcissism, Machiavellian, and Psychopathy.  Don't believe me?  Think I'm inventing and extreme and unfounded accusation?  Don't take my word for it --
      'Dark Triad/48 Laws of Power'

      The Application of the Triad is a series of articles which explains what is necessary to incorporate the dark triad into your own persona by presenting ideas and methodologies which facilitate such an endeavour.

      http://illimitablemen.com/...

      And yes, folks, this is what I meant above when I said 'training materials'.

      People, THIS is the face of 21st Century misogyny, and this is an industry built to manufacture Toxic Misogynists.

      We can no longer rely on our tried-and-true arguments to move the hearts and minds of the innocently unenlightened.  We must learn the language of our enemy in this battle for the definition of reality, and we must re-tool our rhetoric and actions accordingly.

      I'll mention one last thing:  The puerarchy.com site ran a rudimentary poll asking followers to identify themselves by religious and political affiliation.  Among the respondents, 38% of Red Pill believers identified themselves as Democrats.

      We may have some of them here with us today.

      (Shockwave, if you send me a kosmail, can can trade lists of links.  It would be good to have a buddy in this work.)

    •  "Both genders are entirely, entirely awful gend... (0+ / 0-)

      "Both genders are entirely, entirely awful genders." Huzzah!

    •  The cutesy little chick in this "aweshum" video (0+ / 0-)

      is so ignorant it's not funny. She can't pronounce "statistics", she has a good deal of trouble with proper grammar and at one point she says something like "...both genders are awful, awful, awful genders..." WTF??!! Maybe she meant OFFAL - that would be far more believable.

  •  This idea that there are (in my own coinage) (26+ / 0-)

    "hordes of vengeful, grudge-driven sluts" making up rape allegations against innocent men is so offensive, so off-base, so male-centric (only male fears are valid), and, at it's core, so stinkin' misogynistic.

    Most women and girls aren't psychotic bitches out to ruin men and boys' lives for innocent mistakes.  (Many/most of us have been at least partially socialized to sit down and shut up.)  The women reporting their rapes to their colleges are putting themselves through hell to get some justice or just some sense of safety back.  

    What semi-sane, semi-competent person would make up a rape allegation for fun?  Or even revenge?  There are easier ways to get back at someone, which don't involve putting your education, your social life, and your career at risk.

    Do false allegations happen?  Yes.  But they are not the norm.  Rape, on the other hand, is sadly very common.

    If men are truly afraid of being accused after truly consensual sex, they could respond by only having sex with women who are sober, with whom they have a relationship or at least friendship.  (No, that would not prevent them from committing rape, as too many female and male victims have learned to their sorrow.  But it could prevent "misunderstandings", and possibly the detection of people who seem unhinged enough to make up an allegation.)  

    Yes, this would cut down on drunken hook-ups at frat parties, but... so?

    © cai Visit 350.org to join the fight against global warming.

    by cai on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 10:36:03 PM PDT

    •  With no more drunken hookups (9+ / 0-)

      The benefits to the participants's physical and emotional health would be marvelous.

      Anyone considering a dog for personal safety should treat that decision as seriously as they would buying a gun.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 11:30:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh yeah that would be awesome. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      anime1973

      I've had plenty of great sex. And while you might not approve of that, everyone present was sober every time. I prefer it that way. I have no real fear that anyone would ever accuse me of rape. However, it is utterly unrealistic to think that sex and drugs will stop mixing. It's going to happen, and unless you want to imprison a huge chunk of the population, you really can't criminalize drunken sex. As for rape being very common... links? The sexual assault rate has fallen quite alot in the past few decades. So exactly how do you define common?

      I haven't had much time for this conference, busy week for me. But I check out the MRAs now and then, as you know. They make alot of dubious claims, as do feminists. The presumptive leader of this thing pretty much admitted as much in Detroit this week. He acknowledged that he makes outrageous statements to get attention and "shake people out of their complacency". Well, that's a good way to get hits. But it's not something I really want to be associated with. I suspect that female responsibility in DV is under reported, but I doubt it's 50/50 either. And there's the rub. I'm happy that someone is drawing attention to these silly, Victorian attitudes that people in the US have about male sexuality (BEWARE THE EVIL PENIS!!!!) but it's sad that it takes a bunch of right wing bomb throwers to get this done. Bottom line, you're promoting an authoritarian agenda by instilling gender resentment between men and women. It's pure fear mongering.

      I have had a long week and was only going to read Sully tonight. Honestly, I swear that's the truth. But there's a link to Amanda fucking Hess... denying empirical science (again) that sex is mostly pretty awesome and insisting I should feel bad about my naughty bits. I mean, this is an actual headline I had to read tonight: Casual Sex Is Great! (For Narcissistic, Coercive Men!) Do you understand that I get tired of being called a rapist because I like sex? Seriously, do you get that at all? I don't think you do.

      I have to note that the only MRA I really like is Karen Straughan. And she's a bisexual single mother. So the whole thing about angry men who hate women doesn't really apply, does it? The angry men who are pissed at their exes are NOT the ones I relate to. It's the one's like Straughan who make rational and fact based arguments, while showing actual sympathy to the male perspective and male experiences, who make me nod my head. I don't think you get that either.

      I'm just going to make one request. Could you and your homies stop pounding me with the hide ratings every damn time I disagree with you about anything? I mean really? While this may be hard for you to believe, a few people here actually like me. I value being a member here and being able to debate stuff and just joke around with my friends. I'd like to not get any more nastygrams from the mods that I'm about to get the banhammer because I said stuff you don't like. I'm actually not that bad. And like I said, more that you probably realize would be bummed if that actually happened. Leave the creepy authoritarianism for the Tea Party. If you really have a problem with my views, then explain to me why I'm wrong. I don't know, maybe provide some evidence. Try it out, you might enjoy it.

      You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

      by Eric Stratton on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 12:20:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  cai, 'buyer's remorse' part of MRA beliefs (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      as well as the 'sex-crazed hordes' idea you describe.

      I posted more about this ideology, with links, in a comment above.  Since your comment appeared before mine, I didn't want to you miss learning about this.  So please check this link, and please read at least the first link to the 'Constitution'.  Thanks.

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      (PS and Fair Warning:  Your head might explode.  Mine did.)

  •  The "Buyers Remorse" line is an attempt at (10+ / 0-)

    a guilt free "get out of jail free" card for men who rape. It is not true, but if it is believed, it becomes true in a court of inquiry or a court of law.

    Many men feel this way; women want sex, but they are taught to not want it, and given the choice, they will accept it, and then their religious teaching kicks in and they want to take it back.

    Of course, dating and courtship were the ways in which our former, more "primitive" society dealt with the double message about sex. Since we now have Universal Instant Dating Online, that way is largely dead.

    Women must not assume every man is an opportunistic rapist, but must be cautious, not knowing which man is or is not. Men must not assume women want sex as much as they do, and should never have sex on a first date without introducing women to friends, adult faculty, parents, and others in the community. Sex is a community thing. It has to be approved of by the social atmosphere or it becomes a temptation to "take" rather than to "ask."

    Guys need to learn this. No more quickies, No more drinking and sexing, no more temporary guy friends who have no stake in your future. No more hidden and secret trysts which exclude the community and provide emotional support.

    Sex has to be returned to the place where it belongs, within a context of social approval and social activity, because the consequences of not doing that are violent. We are social mammals, and no amount of preaching "individual choice" will ever change that or make sex better.

    And I am not a religious conservative. I am a biologist and extremely liberal student of literature and practical psychology, and to me, the answer is clear. Society has to step up and be with these young people, no matter how much they want to be "alone" stewing in their own juices, as my grandmother used to say.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 10:36:16 PM PDT

    •  Re (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      USA629, Shuruq, lordcopper
      Men must not assume women want sex as much as they do, and should never have sex on a first date without introducing women to friends, adult faculty, parents, and others in the community. Sex is a community thing. It has to be approved of by the social atmosphere or it becomes a temptation to "take" rather than to "ask."
      Holy shit I cannot believe that there are people who actually believe this antiquated nonsense.

      One night stands exist. Not only that, but lots of people really enjoy them and suffer zero ill effects from them despite having quite a few of them over a period of time.

      If you ask a person to have sex and they say "yes" it is safe to assume they want it, no mind-reading necessary. Any other assumption is paternalistic nonsense.

      And I am not a religious conservative. I am a biologist and extremely liberal student of literature and practical psychology, and to me, the answer is clear. Society has to step up and be with these young people, no matter how much they want to be "alone" stewing in their own juices, as my grandmother used to say.
      Yeah, the rest of us are going to do what we want and aren't going to allow you to substitute your judgment for ours. Live your own boring life that way if you want, don't try to inflict your weird ideas on the rest of us.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 10:59:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How old are you? I am talking about young people. (10+ / 0-)

        Amazing list of excuses for really crappy behavior you have there, mostly based on the "I gotta be me" adolescent view of life that is so cool in advertising, and yet, not so cool in real life with real people.

        And, wow, nice original ad hominem attack at the end. Well played. For a 12 year old.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 11:29:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've gotta say (6+ / 0-)
          Yeah, the rest of us are going to do what we want
          that's just sad...
        •  And we are talking about college students (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lordcopper, allie4fairness, Ahianne

          not children.

          Your point of view is a little strange.  Sparhawk did over-react though.

          I don't see that it is practical to chaperone ADULT college students. Nor would it be welcome.

          I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

          by Pixie5 on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 01:08:30 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It has to happen before that.. (7+ / 0-)

            From my experience as a teacher for 34 years, I have seen firsthand how many parents let their kids "raise themselves" from an early adolescent age, say, 9-13. These are the ages of sexual awakening, and it is in these times when parental sexual attitudes are largely transmitted to them. For some parents, the belief that kids of this age, up to 18, are largely "Little Adults" is practiced. They are allowed and even encouraged to be sexually precocious, and the kids, of course, enjoy that.

            For some kids, this happens like an on-off light switch. One day parents are nurturing, hovering and endearing, and the next, they are expected to be emotionally independent sexual adults.

            This is the problem. If kids are unsupervised, unadvised, unmentored from these ages, a certain percentage will almost turn "feral" because parents have washed their hands of all responsibility for sexual guidance. This happens frequently in extremely religiiously traditional (out of  a sense of prudish squeamishness) or extremely impoverished families (out of neglect), and the lessons learned by the young people tend to imitate fundamentalist religious or media images, not what we might call modern Enlightenment principles of human sexual rights for all.

            Of course, if that expectation that sex happens in a social or family context happens early, there is a great willingness for college students to seek a family of friends in which to explore and learn about these things, rather as a natural consequence. This was my own college experience. We were not with family any more, and yet we formed a like-minded extended family so that we could talk, regulate, check and balance each other, boys and girls (because 20 somethings have more in common emotionally with young people than adults in most cases) and the family or social pattern of sexual learning continued. It produced, in our case, and in the case of many groups in my college, a feeling that sex IS socially constructed and socially approved, it is not a "lone wolf" activity.

            Men and boys especially need this. Their impulses are so strong that it is very easy to fall into a "I gotta be me" UltraGalt mindframe and this is when real harms occur, usually to women, but also to gay men and bisexual people. That is why there is so much "He said, she said" argument. No one else, socially, is there to witness the context in which the sexual activity took place, and so, both people are free to "blame" the other should some harm occur.

            I am not talking about chaperoning. I am talking about returning sex to the context in which it evolved; within a context of social activity, social commentary, and social approval. I would use some of the former rituals which were not oppressive and create some new ones.

            This is why we tell kids in high school.. "Get involved in a club or activity. You will find people who are like you, and who can help you out in every area of life." Duh. What area of life are they most interested in? Sex of course. Fine. Just place it where it belongs; within a community of approving and loving people, who will take care of you during the emotional storms of the first relationships.

            I rest your case.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 07:15:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Okay, thank you for clarifying...I see your points (0+ / 0-)

              And yes I see now you are mostly talking about men. In general women DO operate within that kind of paradigm.

              And you are probably right that not many teenagers get the kind of guidance they need. Ever since the sexual revolution happened I think many parents are kind of at a loss as to how to approach things. I will not be too judgmental about that since I am not a parent though. But kids should not be left without a rudder as to how to navigate things.

              "Get involved in a club or activity. You will find people who are like you, and who can help you out in every area of life"

              That is always good advice in general and it also keeps kids away from drugs and bad influences as well.

              I take the phrase "Bleeding Heart Liberal" as a compliment...

              by Pixie5 on Wed Jul 02, 2014 at 12:01:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  "Crappy behavior" (0+ / 0-)

          A large number of people have one-night-stands and it's pretty awesome. Men enjoy it, and women enjoy it. They don't agree with your psychobabble nonsense. There is no "crappy behavior" here among consenting adults. There is only behavior that you do not approve of.

          And there is no ad hominem here. The sexual rules and regulations you have delineated here are literally boring. No one wants to follow them and will not.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:07:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You enable the usurers (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mrkvica

            The problem with your line of "reasoning" is the old "if it feels good, do it" moral position. I have to tell you that half the men my age who were at the forefront of the gay liberation time are no longer here because of that reasoning which destroyed them physically and emotionally. It was an article of faith that, if formerly, gay sex had been shown to be evil, absolutely prohibited by the paternal authorities, then automatically, absolute sexual freedom was seen to be absolutely good. It was reactionary, and it was a mistake in thinking. It caused enormous harm to people.

            There are biological and emotional limits on the behaviors of human beings. All we can imagine is not applicable in the world of reality, and this kind of fantastical "I gotta be me" feeling has caused more harm to men, women and children than any other half baked philosophy in history.  

            I am also a farmer, and I apply my understand biological limits of living organisms, especially when it comes to sex, breeding, and creating optimal conditions for plants and animals. Your formula is not it, either in the realm of human relationships or in the world of living things.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:26:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's fine (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BradyB

              You do what you want, the rest of us will do what we want. As far as the law is concerned, all that matters is that it was consensual. As long as you don't have any plans to legislate your ideas, I have no problem with them.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 10:20:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I accept you do not agree, that anyone may not. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrkvica

                And that is fine too.

                I just present these ideas as a possible way forward to helping some people who are suffering, and in an effort to reduce the amount of violence and pain people suffer.

                I may be way way way too idealistic, but if it only asks people to reconsider the feelings they have, I dont think it hurts anyone to say it.

                Many people tell me, we are doomed to suffer, so there is nothing to be done about it. I dont think so, but there is very little that can be done except the attempt to persuade.

                Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 10:46:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Recommended for being fascinating (4+ / 0-)

      I'm unconvinced but it's a new and interesting point of view.

      Anyone considering a dog for personal safety should treat that decision as seriously as they would buying a gun.

      by Dogs are fuzzy on Sat Jun 28, 2014 at 11:32:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'd like to agree with your comment, but there's (10+ / 0-)

      a problem. The society that you describe, that used to try its best to manage relationships (and not very well, most of the time), doesn't exist in the same way any more. A single woman today may not have this type of useful structure available to her, or may in fact be single and living alone because she is trying to get out of the box that family relationships can tend to create.

      Absent that safety net, we are groping for new structures. To suggest that outside social approval of our choices ought to factor into the equation both oversimplifies the situation and, to some extent, tends to reimpose the standards we're trying to change.

      mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

      by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 03:39:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I woke up (5+ / 0-)

        to see the children are up now, too.  Good lord!  I need coffee before I can wrap my brain around this mess of commentary by the self-absorbed, serendipity.  Actually, I think I may log off and go work in my garden awhile.  My 2 week vacation is over tomorrow, alas!

        "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

        by NancyWH on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:16:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Old structures were based on Paternalism (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        serendipityisabitch, CroneWit

        Dating, coutship, legal prohibitions, taboos, power relationships of all types.

        That doesnt mean that they had no good function, but it means that the functions had been co-opted for the building of Tribal, usually racial, Empires.

        My suggestion is to now place sexual activity within an freely chosen, open and transparent social context, in which people understand that sex is not very satisfying or good when it occurs Under the Radar, except in the Thrill of the Forbidden. This is reactionary.

        I think my point of view is not new at all. It has been evolving since 1600 when Shakespeare voiced it cautiously and in veiled terms in Romeo and Juliet, and in A Midsummer Night's Dream. Voltaire, Moliere, Locke, Rousseau, Kant, and many many other intellectuals were arguing for Free Association of Individuals, not for Absolute Free Choice, but for a new social construct which supports people in their quest for happiness.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:21:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, if you want to lie to your kids, fine. (5+ / 0-)

          Sex can be good under a huge number of circumstances, and your "Under the Radar" and "Thrill of the Forbidden" strictures can go hang. My personal take is that it's at its best when both partners really want it, and there's at least some experience to go along with it. There are a dozen or two other factors that come into play, but societal permission doesn't cut it at all unless you've thoroughly brainwashed at least one partner to think it does.

          It isn't sex we're trying to constrain here, but power tripping done under the aegis of sex, and "society" has been rooting for that side for a long time.

          mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

          by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:34:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  While I agree that I dont want to like this... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mrkvica

            I also know that from a Gay Men's perspective that finally being Free from Paternalism caused a generation of young men to act as if there were no social or biological constraints on sex and relationships.

            The absolute destruction of so many men emotionally and physically which resulted gave the impetus for gay men to seek a Traditional Remedy; place gay sex and love within the context of social and traditional forms, courtship and marriage. We now almost have that for the first time, and we have minimized the damage to gay men's psychology for the first time in history.

            I think the new Men's Awareness movement has a lot to learn from the Women's Awareness movement and the Gay Awareness movements. We all need some traditional structures within socially approved avenues. We are social mammals. We cause all kinds of harms when we remove the social part of sex and relationships from the norm. When violence is seen as epidemic, we know we have violated a biological need for securuty, and the remedy is more social context, socialism if you will, in its non economic meaning.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:49:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And who's fault is that? (13+ / 0-)
      Many men feel this way; women want sex, but they are taught to not want it, and given the choice, they will accept it, and then their religious teaching kicks in and they want to take it back.
      Is that a woman's fault? Or are a Patriarchal Society and Religion at fault?

      Because I am answering B.

      If that is what they fear, then why aren't they siding with feminists?

      That would effectly end even the illusion of that scenario by throwing out the ridiculous religious rules constantly being spouted by rape apologists from the religious and political pulpit.

      "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

      by GreenMother on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 05:06:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I totally agree. It is the Social Context. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Alexandra Lynch, CroneWit

        Women are taught mixed messages, and men use this to their personal, often secret, advantage.

        Much better to teach everyone the same thing: sexual activity, like marriage, courtship and even love, happens within a socially approved construct, where people freely join together with support of family, friends and mentors.

        The self-control of men absolutely depends on the idea that they must answer to their friends and family for their activity, the social context.

        This is why Rugged Reagan Individualism, MeFirst and Only Galtism, and "I gotta be me" lone wolfism is so dangerous. It teaches people that there is no social context. The only value, for many, is What Can I Get? And we get the commodification of sex, love and relationships.

        Thank you, Conservative Revolution, for confusing two entire generations of men and women about how human relationships really are, and producing violence.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:28:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are confusing awareness of violence (4+ / 0-)

          and actual violence, I think. I'm not sure where you get two generations, but the problem was very real before that - just hidden in the vast category of "things we don't talk about". Along with things like teenage pregnancy, and child abuse.

          Marital abuse, for instance, has a long, long history. It simply wasn't often reported, and if reported was generally ignored. Laws against it have been on the books for centuries. The fact that the laws existed even in societies where women were regarded as chattel says something about the prevalence of such abuse, though even inaccurate statistics are mostly absent.

          mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

          by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:18:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The pushback from 1980 on.. (0+ / 0-)

            to put Paternalism back in the driver's seat during the election of Reagan and the Reactionaries against the relative freedom of the late 60's and 70's.

            Of course, paternalism never did give up its grip, even during those relatively free times, but it reasserted its control after 1980, and rolled back the gains toward Human Rights in its attempt to regain control again. Paternalism won, again, economically, but in terms of social attitudes, it only confused people and gave them a reactionary alternative, which many young men use to their personal benefit at a cost to young women.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:31:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The most difficult word in any language (12+ / 0-)

      for a man to understand is a woman saying no.

      Because teaching men how to hear 'no' is a simpler proposal.

    •  quoth: (5+ / 0-)
      Women must not assume every man is an opportunistic rapist, but must be cautious, not knowing which man is or is not.
      Strawman, but you get the second half right. The first half smacks too much of something an MRA might say, which is probably why you got the pushback you did from Sparhawk.

      Also, the goal is to move toward a society where sexual predation is so diminished that women need not exercise that level of caution just to be alone with a man.

      As for your notions about when and how to have sex, well, I disagree. I think women and men should have sex precisely as often as they mutually choose, with the consenting adults of their choice (or, heck, without). Full stop.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:27:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your formula leads to exactly what we have. (0+ / 0-)

        With no social context, people are free to be absolutely horrible to each other. They learn HOW to be horrible from the Paternalists and the Excitement Mongers in the Movies.

         No law can stop a person from acting horribly, but family and friends can. We need to place sexual activity back within the context in which it evolved, but without the Paternalism.

        We are no longer building Tribal Empires, or we should think we are not. We are building confident, socially competent and responsible adults who value the human rights of every other person, and to do that, it takes a Social Context and a Social Contract, not Rugged Individualism, as the norm.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:33:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The flaw in your logic (4+ / 0-)

          is the conflation of two things: Casual sex, and people being horrible to each other.

          Any social interaction can involve people being horrible to each other. There is nothing magical about sex that makes people extra-able to be extra-horrible to each other. What is lacking in our social understanding of how sex works is a deep understanding of boundaries and consent. That's not intrinsic to sex; to the contrary, it's entirely extrinsic to sex.

          The context "from which" you say sexual activity evolved was itself a context "from which" other sexual activity evolved. And that context was, in fact, intrinsically intertwined with paternalism. You cannot retrieve those aspects of sex without stigmatizing it, and by stigmatizing sex you bring aspects of paternalism back into play. This does not work.

          People can have a very casual, even lackadaisical, attitude toward sex and value each other's human rights. In fact, one has nothing to do with the other. That you conflate the two is an indication only of your own perceptions of the politics of sex, not of the intrinsic nature of either politics or sex.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:46:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I come at this from a gay man's perspective (0+ / 0-)

            When Casual Sex and Courtship are divorced from the idea of stable relationships, which I admit I value highly, and I think should be valued highly, we get the kind of usurous behavior on a larger scale than we currently like. The phenomena of rabid numbers of Lone Wolfism and Sexual Usury among young men point to their using your formula for the exploitation of women, which women are objecting to strenously, as gay men did in this last episode of societal awareness.

            I think that while people do have a very lackadaisical and casual attitude toward sex, it is not the optimal condition. The optimal condition is sexual behavior that harms no one, emotionally, physically and even morally, or spiritually. We know what deception is, and we feel badly when we deceive our significant others and our families. We can get away with it, but it is not an optimal condition for ourselves, and in some cases, causes actual violence and harm.  

            I personally have no guilt about sex, because as a currently single man, I am free to date and freely associate. But if I have a temporary relationship, I know it is not as.. morally important... as sexually important or as enriching in any meaningful way, as those relationships which happen in my social context with friends, family and mentors. It is SO much better when I know I am doing the open thing for others and my own happiness.

            I think that can and should be the norm, because we know it feels better, makes people happier, and enables personal growth. I want us to reconnect dating, courtship and love within a social context, and of course, there will be funnzy wunnzy play times as well, but lets not elevate that to a moral equivalent of what we know to be a better condition.

            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:06:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  quoth: (5+ / 0-)
              I think that while people do have a very lackadaisical and casual attitude toward sex, it is not the optimal condition. The optimal condition is sexual behavior that harms no one, emotionally, physically and even morally, or spiritually.
              This is a false dichotomy. Both casual attitudes and sexual behavior that harms no one can and do exist in the same people. There is nothing inherently deceptive about treating sex casually.

              I don't pretend to know what the gay experience is like, being straight, and I'm also trying to keep my own personal experiences out of this. But there are many people who have casual sex and (assuming they take precautions to mitigate the inherent risks of STIs and pregnancy) have healthy, happy lives. Irrespective of gender or orientation.

              It seems to me that you operate from the presumption that sexual activity necessarily includes a level of emotional vulnerability that casualness cannot manage. But one can be casual (and two can be casual, and three four or five can be casual) while still respecting consent, boundaries, humanity.

              Being casual about sex, by the way, does not preclude entering into a monogamous sexual relationship in a different context. One can do both at different points in one's life.

              There are, by the way, people who are asexual -- people who do not seek sexual nor romantic relaitonships with anyone. And they do not necessarily lead unfulfilling nor incomplete lives either.

              I really believe you have a number of underlying assumptions about sexual psychology which are not necessarily true, and these assumptions are driving your conclusions. I would suggest these need to be reexamined.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:35:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would respectfully suggest that you are also.. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrkvica

                speaking within a set of very recent and very much promoted rhetorical assumptions about how sex can be labeled "casual" and therefore just BE "casual." I think this is a case of wishful labeling, much as advertisers do. Its aspirational, but its not real, for people who have emotional states attuned to others emotional states.

                I would say that while some people are totally able to have a sexual relationship "without strings" there is a cost to this. It is sometimes not seen by the person practicing it, but more likely seen by others around that person. It does involve deception, and that is one of the harms.

                I would argue that there is a further harm, and that is in the enabling of people who HAVE no conscience or empathy to use the term, well, we were just having causual sex, consensual, that starts the He Said She Said arguments which end up in court. If we could see "casual sex" as more of an oxymoron we can see that it is the term which provides cover for those who are sexually usurous and perhaps sexually violent. I think it would be good to minimize the term, and to see sex more realistically, as always psychologically important, meaningful and with consequences.

                By the way, Louis C.K. agrees with me.. hahahaah.

                Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:47:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  quoth: (5+ / 0-)
                  I would say that while some people are totally able to have a sexual relationship "without strings" there is a cost to this.
                  Pray tell, what's the cost? You kinda glossed that one over. Be specific. I think we'll get to the meat of where I think we differ most.
                  I would argue that there is a further harm, and that is in the enabling of people who HAVE no conscience or empathy to use the term, well, we were just having causual sex, consensual, that starts the He Said She Said arguments which end up in court.
                  No. Wrong. Nyet. False. Also, BAD.

                  Again, you are conflating casual and non-consensual sex and these are completely orthogonal, especially since many rapes are committed by close relations, not casual acquaintances or strangers. You will not mitigate rape by stigmatizing sex, and worse, you will perpetuate many of the attitudes that discourage rape victims from reporting the crime.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 10:11:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ok. Maybe we are at the crux of the discussion.. (0+ / 0-)

                    so I will try to answer, again.

                    I do not believe that the term "casual sex" actually expresses anything in reality. It is a fantasy term, an advertising term, good for promotion of... I guess sexual products, cell phones, dating sites, etc etc... which people use to satisfy their physical desires, which are valid, and yet deployed rhetorically to minimize the cost to their own self concept.

                    I do not say that these should be banned, eliminated, policed, or in any way stigmitized. There is another category of social approval, and that is.. social approval... for something better.

                    As it stands now, young men think that if they are not getting their quota of "casual sex," then there is something wrong with them. They have the social norm of Me First, More is Better, and I Gotta Be Me." As gay men have found out, this is not a formula for success.

                    The formula for reducing sexual violence is to bring sexual activity out into the open, make it social, make it part of community and friend feedback, not for disapproval or some new form of paternalism, but in the context of real friendship and caring about others. Guys can do this for guys, but they don't. They instead ask each other How Much Did You Get?

                    This is not an inherent flaw in men. This is a learned behavior, and social norms can unlearn it as well. We just need to say it. "We like it when you introduce your girlfriends to us, and we dont like it when you are all sneaky and secretive and deceptive about it." That is all it takes.

                    You would not believe the number of former teenagers I have had as students who call, come over and visit me in my classroom with their girlfriends, even to my house! I cannot believe it.. to introduce me to them, in their 20's, even late 20's because they are seeking approval for their growth as sexual and relationshippy individuals. All I can assume is that they do not have significant adults in their lives to do this for them, and this is beyond sad. They SEEk social connection for relationships because of our social mammal wiring, and  because our society is so weak at providing it.

                    One young man was feeling so down and low that he asked me what was wrong with him, after I had seen him with three different girls in three weeks. I told him. Be Loyal. You chose your first girlfriend for a reason, and that reason is still valid. You have charisma, and you can have anyone you want, but be loyal to the friends you choose, because they dont have the power you have and they still want your attention. That was all it took. He stopped dating for a bit, returned to his first love, became a person who respected himself and was respected, and was the happiest person in school this year. It is basic. It is humane. It works.

                    Sex and Relationships are social. We are social mammals. We need to accompany our 20 somethings on this journey, and the farther we go down the road toward I Gotta Be Me Galtism, the more violence we will see. I have hundreds of concrete examples, and so I do come at this from real world experience.

                    Casual sex diminishes us either slightly or greatly depending on the person, because it doesnt reflect as well our human emotional or psychological needs, and socially approved relationships last and grow. It is not that difficult, but it does fly in the face of all our advertising and media images, and is radical in the context of how radically our fantasy thinking has become.

                    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                    by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 10:38:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes, I see where we profoundly differ (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      churchylafemme

                      and where I think you're projecting extrinsic values onto sex. But I'm out of time for right now, so I'll have to fully reply later. This post is just a note to let you know I'm not ignoring you.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 11:00:41 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Okay. I will return. (0+ / 0-)

                        But I do think that we may always disagree on the costs of what I consider to be an oxymoron, "casual sex." Louis C.K. has a good bit on this, which is worth seeing. I think he is right.

                        I think that needs to be really examined by us guys, and we should keep an open mind about it. I can be wrong, too. I am older, at 58, so my socialization was different than the younger generation, but from my perspective, I dont think the introduction of "casual sex" as a valid term has added very much to the contentment of all of us.

                        It certainly has not added very much to the contentment and security of many women, and this may be the fault line between men and women which we need to really think about.

                        This is an extremely uncomfortable topic, I think everyone agrees on that. And I thank you for your decency and ability to keep it on the plane of rational discourse. That is a rare quality.

                        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                        by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 11:13:35 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Question: (0+ / 0-)

                          Do you see what is termed as "casual sex" as the male partner exploiting the female partner?

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:14:18 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  No. (0+ / 0-)

                            Both people can agree that they are using each other for physical pleasure and a measure of emotional satisfaction as a result, kind of a ersatz love, to remind them of what love could be. Its fine. It is just not optimal emotionally, and we should say that.  

                            What I am objecting to is not the casual sex itself. I am objecting to the mythology that casual sex is better than, to be striven for, a goal in itself, a major moral victory, a way to sustain yourself, a higher goal in life, a rhetorical cock crow, and a method of guy scorekeeping. In other words, stop acting so proud of it. Its not as good as you say it is.

                            What guys SAY about it is at huge variance from its real benefit. I only suggest people stop elevating casual sex to the position of sex, because it costs both people more than it pays back, emotionally, and often physically. It is not something to permanently aspire to, and should not be seen or talked about as such.

                            I am questioning the positive connotation guys have about "casual sex," and hoping for a day when it will be viewed differently and talked about more realistically.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:22:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're confusing me. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            I'm getting conflicting statements from you that casual sex in and of itself is unhealthy and now that the elevation of its value in social context is what's unhealthy.

                            These are two very different statements which lead to two very different conversations.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:25:03 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hope I am not. (0+ / 0-)

                            I dont see any legal remedy.
                            I see a shift in how guys, boys and men TALK about casual sex.
                            I see people questioning whether there is such a thing as "casual sex" because of the issues which arise.
                            I see people NOT using "casual sex" as an equivalent to meaningful friendships and relationships.
                            I see people shifting their rhetoric away from the elevation of "casual sex" as a positive good, to a thing which has emotional and physical costs greater than the temporary benefit it produces.  
                            I see people honoring the desires of women to be safer by NO LONGER accepting the idea that bad people can use the "casual sex" rhetoric as a positive excuse for usurous  or violent sexual behavior.

                            I want people to grow a sense of perspective on sex. It is NOT just another activity. It is emotional, physical and even spiritual for yourself and your "casual partner" and if you do not treat it that way, there is an emotional, physical and even spiritual cost to yourself.

                            That is all I mean to say. Question the Dominant Paradigm. It has been tried, and found wanting, for the society as a whole. It harms people, on balance, more than it helps them.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:35:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Still confused. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            But think you're more on the "casual sex is intrinsically bad" side. Will try to respond to that.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:41:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Its not about Bad or Good. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch

                            Its about what promotes growth or stagnation, what provides happiness or anxiety, or what promotes others comfort or others extreme dissatisfaction.

                            I just want all of us to think about what happens when we say.. Oh, it was only "casual sex." No strings. FWB, you know, just for the hell of it, cure for boredom.

                            You are aware that this country uses, by a factor of 4, more prescription anti-anxiety drugs and anti-depression drugs than any other advanced nation. I would say, start here, and its not the whole problem, for sure, about the way we talk about "casual sex." It is not a substitute for love, relationships or friendships. It doesnt work that way.

                            Take it from a survivor of the "Free Love" revolution. It wasn't that great to be a survivor of a revolution, and now we know why.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:50:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  From one survivor to another - I enjoyed the hell (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            raptavio

                            out of it. And gained a large number of good friends, and comfortable relationships. And some grief, but that comes along with being human and caring, and has zip to do with sex.

                            I can accept that your overall experience from that time was poor, but you're assuming that it had nothing to do with where you might have been coming from at the time. I think you might want to take another look at that assumption.

                            mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                            by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 07:47:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The issue is not about me personally. (0+ / 0-)

                            As much as people may want to believe that personal experience is the determining factor in our decisions or logic.

                            When I hear women saying, you know, so many guys I meet are so enthralled with themselves, how many times they have seduced a girl with smooth words and promises, made them feel special only to never call again, become manipulative for sex, because they say its "just a casual thing," I have to take their word for it. I have seen the same thing myself, and I know how easy it is to slip into just using people if you have the talent for doing so and the disengenousness it requires.

                            That does not make it a desirable thing to do. It makes it a thing people do. I will not defend the attitude you embrace, because I know it enables many guys who may not have your ethical background to act really badly to women.

                            So, I take offense at your attempt to personalize something which i have worked hard at explaining, even though it is not popular or advertised, or widely believed. It is not a personal thing for me. I am happy that I have survived and learned from the mistakes of others, which you say, was a helluva good time. I have a happy life with no regrets, so it really is not about my attitude.

                            As I have said, I dont especially like the conclusion I have come to on this. I wish it werent so, because then being a usurous person would be completely fine. But rational people, who look at the whole society, not just their own personal pleasure, can come to a different conclusion. When we do come to a different conclusion, I think the whole society will be able to relax around each other, and men and women will be able to see each other as human beings more easily, and not merely sexual commodities.

                            I am fully aware of how unpopular this is. It means I can be accused of being 1) prudish 2) unbalanced  3) socially awkward 4) not attractive  5) paternalistic  6) a killjoy. Those are the reasons no one ever argues this position. They become attacked personally. I thought people on my side would not do that, but I guess I was wrong. We are not that highly evolved after all.

                            So, thanks for the comment. It revealed much more about you than it did about my position. I see what women are up against more clearly. If it doesnt advantage you personally, you are not interested in entertaining a position which might help others feel better about the culture. I get it.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 11:54:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't know whether you've bothered to (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            raptavio, Silencio

                            check my profile, or read some of the comments in Silencio's last diary, but - OregonOak, I'm a woman.

                            This whole discussion is personal to me, and when I speak, I try to speak personally, without trying to make my experiences a template for anyone else.

                            If "this issue", which I take to mean the whole area of women's issues and how they impact men, is not in fact personal to you, then I don't understand why you would feel insulted when I related experiences which seem to me to contradict some of your points.

                            To suggest there might be factors which you have not previously considered, and that some of them may be personal factors - if that seems to you to be an insult, perhaps you might consider your anger in this area more carefully.

                            mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                            by serendipityisabitch on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 12:19:14 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay. If you think so. (0+ / 0-)

                            But really, I don't.

                            And I am sorry that I did not see that you are a woman, and responded as if you are not. This makes the issue even more difficult for me, since it means that some women themselves are not willing to take the slightest examination of how our social rhetoric can potentially damage people, the very people who are the most vocal about the issue.

                            It is like you are saying, "Well, I dont have a problem with it, so people who do, must have an issue." Worse than dismissive.

                             I have seen all sides of this problem of sexual usury which poses as "casual sex freedom" and I see that most people want someone ELSE to be regulated or sanctioned.

                             I really believe, not for personal reasons,  that defending and speaking well of "casual sex" leads to a lot of harms which people sweep under the rug and refuse to understand.

                            "Casual sex" if it existed, which I doubt, given a normal emotional state and a sense of empathy and responsibility,  is one of those attractive and liberating concepts,  but it does not  in the real world liberate or become attractive.

                             I know my position is a concept which is viewed as a "conservative" position, but to me, your position is a reaction against extreme paternalism, and would not be considered if the effects of paternalism had not been so harmful to women. I think women of good intentions have backed away so strongly against "control" that they have literally backed up into a propeller, and it is harming the majority of women, while a minority who enjoy "casual sex"  accuse them in essence, of being prudish losers.

                            My only suggestion is this: Let's stop talking as if "casual sex" is a postive good for all, and getting personal if a person suggests we rethink it for the good of people who are being harmed by it.

                            I don't see how your position helps the current problems people, especially women, are having. It seems to me that you cannot have both; to gloriously approve of something called "casual sex" and then wonder why so many women feel attacked, used, disregarded, violated, all the way to the extremes of violence.

                            I think our society is too glib about this. Let's really examine how it affects people's behavior, and how, in general, it can make people turn sex into a commodity.

                            This may be a class-based distinction. I don't know. But dont dismiss those who would examine the issue as a person who has anger issues. I dont think that is right. And in my case, it is definitely wrong.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 07:37:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think you're missing a key point here, which (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Old Sailor, Silencio

                            has been made over and over in past diaries.

                            Rape is not about sex, it is about the abuse of power.

                            There is nothing casual about rape, and no correlation with those people who actually enjoy consensual sex that is not part of a committed choice.

                            There has been an incredible amount said about the socialization that leads to a rape culture, some of it by me (although there are women here who are far better than I am at verbalizing it), and what might be needed to change it. You seem to have, at most, skimmed those discussions. I recommend you go back to the original diaries and read more carefully, if you think that is the case.

                            mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                            by serendipityisabitch on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 08:01:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course it is. Not disputable. Not disputed. (0+ / 0-)

                            But the rhetoric "casual sex" which you defend is a "card for power" for those who use sex as power. It is something which, when you look into who actually use that term, you find those who are interested in sex as power, and have that card to play when it is a "he said, she said" situation.

                            I don't see how you don't see that.

                            All it takes is for us to diminish the positive connotation of the term, and to make it slightly less a desired good. That is all I am saying.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 08:15:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  She doesn't see that, (3+ / 0-)

                            and neither do I, because it isn't true.

                            Stigmatizing casual sex does not in any way remove the "he said, she said" game, nor diminish in any way its power. Its sole effect is to cause shame in the minds of victims of rape, and further discourage them from reporting their violation.

                            Here's what I see.

                            Everything you say about casual sex -- which I define as consensual sex outside of the context of a committed romantic relationship -- places a lot of assumptions on the context -- that it's a substitute for intimacy, that it's a tool for male control over women, that it is essentially an ersatz relationship when we need real ones.

                            Literally none of that is true. None of it. CAN sex be used as a means to escape and ignore real needs? Sure. CAN sex be abused as a means of control? Sure. But so can virtually every other form of social interaction. Your error is in believing this is an essential, intrinsic part of sex, and even more oddly, that placing sex into an artificially imposed structure of social mores and committed relationships somehow removes that intrinsic aspect.

                            When you think about it, those beliefs are mutually incompatible. If it's impossible to have healthy casual sex, it's impossible to have healthy sex.

                            I wanted to keep my own personal experience out of this but fine.

                            After the breakdown of my first (and thus far only) marriage, I had a casual relationship going with a nice woman who I considered a friend. We weren't in love and weren't going to be in love, but we enjoyed exploring and experimenting and learning new things about what makes us tick and the physical release of sex with each other. And, as things happened, a couple months later I found myself getting serious with someone else. And with my 'FWB' as you put it, the sex part of our friendship was over, with no regrets. We maintained our friendship for years afterwards, she wound up getting married and having a couple kids, and I happen to be in the same committed, monogamous relationship that ended that FWB arrangement to this day, more than ten years later.

                            If boundaries are clear, expectations are clear, and consent and mutual respect for each other as people are part of the deal, then not only does casual sex not need to do any harm, but can be both enjoyable, rewarding, and beneficial. Because what one may be seeking, or wanting/needing, at a given time may not be a long-term relationship. And that's okay. There is no one-size-fits-all blueprint (no pun intended) for what people need of friendship, companionship, love, or sex. We're all individuals. And in my case, neither my onetime casual sex partner nor I have any regrets. And I don't have any patience for people who don't know me or my story and would presume to tell me whether my experiences were good or bad for me. Nor her. Nor anyone else who chose to have NSA sex at any time.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 12:45:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well said. (0+ / 0-)

                            And I agree that in many cases, "casual sex" is harmless or a stage that we go through to find out what we are really about, and what kinds of relationships we want.

                            I have similar experiences, with sex and relationships which I would have said at the time, I would have called "casual," and yet, which when I think about it, were much more than that. They were formative, important and emotionally significant, even if both of us thought it wasnt at the time. Some of those people remain friends, just as you tell about here.

                            I am not judging, because then I would have to judge my own formative relationship experiences. But I do believe that those times were not to be thought of in the same way as the other relationships, sometimes not even sexual ones, which I have had.

                            I only am suggesting that we all, men and women, gay and straight, think about and examine how we talk about "casual sex" because of the message it sends to men about expectations. This is the start of a conversation which can help men understand that sex is not a "right" and that no one "owes" you sex, which is partly the cause of sexual violence in this country.

                            I am not arguing for stigma or sanctions. I suggest we try downplaying our rhetoric around casual sex to include more messages about social connections, more activities and possibilities of development, having fun while doing good for others, engaging in tasks in voluntary ways, and in general using our energy in socially useful ways.

                            If people do casual sex, fine. No big deal. It happens, its fine, but the message that there are equally satisfying and excellent thing to do needs to be amped up, because people need to know that sex is not the only great value we have, especially men and boys. The messages are so prevalent that young men are really confused. They need alternatives.  There are many more ways.  I am merely arguing for balance.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 11:35:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry; I can't continue this. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch, SilentBrook

                            What you say in one post is so far removed from what you say in the next post (all casual sex is harmful; now casual sex can be harmless?) that this conversation has become frustrating past the point of my ability to continue it on a respectful level.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 05:55:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is difficult.. the topic itself almost (0+ / 0-)

                            defies language. It is true that the reason people see this issue so differently is that the terms of the topic are not well defined or accepted.

                            Trying to be "moderate" or finding a position which is neither paternalistic nor irresponsible to women's realty is very very hard to articulate, especially perhaps now at the end of paternalistic rulemaking and enforcement.

                            I have been pretty well challenged to define what I mean here, and if it seems like I have at times understated and at other times overstated, it is because this is a new position I am trying to formulate. It is very difficult, because I think the issue is very difficult.

                            I am merely claiming that the rhetoric around "casual sex" has been destructive psychologically for many people, and that it would be a relief to many people not to create the expectation that it is an unalloyed good thing. We don't hear that.

                            Among young men, the message is that "casual sex" is an expectation. It is a thing to do which "liberals" like me encourage, and yet, I think there is lots of space for us to say, you know, you do not have to. It is optional because for some, in my view many people, it is either neutral, no benefit, or for some, very destructive. For all, I think it has costs which are unspoken and unrecognized.

                            To my students, I dont advocate "casual sex" as a way to relieve the stress of life. I say, be with your people. Be social, learn how to have an interesting personality, do things which are challenging and interesting. Forget about it until you are really ready to handle all the downsides, because we never really talk about that.

                            I only say, having lived through the last 40 years of liberating revolution, lets examine how we talk about it, and what expectations we create. My position is a very moderate one, and I think that since it is complicated, it is hard to explain at this point.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 07:30:24 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They're using that as another tactic already, (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Silencio, raptavio, SilentBrook

                            you know. It's called "slut shaming", and it depends on the idea that social acceptability is based on conforming to the ideals of a mythical society that equates casual sex with "women who ask for it" ("it" being, of course, rape).

                            The fact that it is totally opposed to the other argument isn't stopping anybody who's looking for ways to justify rape.

                            And I don't see how you haven't seen that.

                            mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

                            by serendipityisabitch on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 12:49:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I do see how you can say that. (0+ / 0-)

                            That is why no one tries to take my position. Men who claim that "casual sex" is not an optimal condition will be accused of making women conform to a former condition which was really unacceptable and was based on paternalistic control systems.  That is not what I am advocating at all.

                            I think true liberation from paternalism is not to do the opposite from what paternalism demanded, but to examine the optimal kind of relationships people can have, and to value them more than the kinds of relationships people can have that are less than optimal.

                            I think that we should really examine what we think about men's attitudes about casual sex and the expectations it creates in the mind's of men. If it is not universally applicable, then it seems that we have created a desire for men which cannot be fulfilled, either partly or wholly.

                            I am really addressing men's attitudes. I dont want anyone to feel shame from what they call "casual sex." That doesn't help anyone. What I do want people to think about is the way in which they talk about "casual dating." I think our society has really given carte blanc approval, without qualificaton, to people who have casual sex as a substitute for more fulfilling relationships. I dont think that shame about it is an appropriate response, because it is a very human thing to do, and to shame people only creates resentment. It solves nothing. That was part of paternalism.  

                            But neither paternalism nor the reactionary opposite of paternalism is the answer, because they both are forms of paternalism. I think we would all be better off if we could see how developing personality, social connections, common interests, networks of like minded people and other social alternatives for casual sex can be even better than what we currently have.

                            I am arguing for a future that has never existed, even in the mythological past.

                            Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                            by OregonOak on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 11:03:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry, but you're wrong. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            serendipityisabitch
                            What I do want people to think about is the way in which they talk about "casual dating." I think our society has really given carte blanc approval, without qualificaton, to people who have casual sex as a substitute for more fulfilling relationships.
                            No one has given carte blanche to using casual sex as a substitute for a more fulfilling relationship. You will find no one in their right mind supporting such a claim. Any decent student of psychology will tell you, IF people are using casual sex as a substitute for anything, it's unhealthy and needs to be addressed.

                            But many people engaging in casual sex, are not substituting anything. They are either not currently interested in more intimate relationship, are generally never interested in a more intimate relationship, or enjoying sexual activities in the same way they'd enjoy crochet or racquetball - as a leisure activity - while they're not in a more intimate relationship.

                            You are assuming way too many things about relationships, about online dating, about casual sexual (which most assuredly DOES exist) and people's attitudes about sex, based on a narrow personal viewpoint.

                            I've spent a number of years studying online dating and online sexual hook-up sites. I have an extension knowledge on this subject, both in terms of practical navigation of these sites, and the psychological ramifications of consensual casual relationships. Your perspectives are not the reality for all people, or even most people. And your perception of what society has accepted is entirely incorrect. In fact, if society did accept casual sex as a substitute, in the way you're describing, we wouldn't still have prostitution illegal in this country, or nearly the same arguments about birth control.

                            Societal acceptance has expanded, in the idea of not every sexual behavior having to be condoned by society in general - i.e. if most people think BDSM is weird and off-putting, we do not assume people into BDSM are mentally disturbed.

                            But the reality is - some people enjoy casual sex primarily, some people enjoy committed sex primarily, and most people will sway between those preferences at different parts of their lives. And that is the reality that society is finally accepting, and is finally minimizing paternalistic views of women's sexuality being something which requires social acceptance. The moment you revert to societal acceptance being required individual sexual choices, you turn us back into a world where sexuality is something to be judged and different sexual desires are something to be shunned by society.

    •  Your perspectives are out of whack. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      serendipityisabitch

      Sex is NOT a community thing. Individuals make their own choices - it has nothing to do with friends or family.

      And MANY women want sex, many even want is as much as men, and prefer it to be without strings or relationships. If you don't know that, you need to learn more about women. Because your views of them are entirely misguided. Men need to not assume women want sex when and how they want it - they should NEVER assume if a woman does or doesn't want it, or how much of it she wants.

      Turning consensual non-relationship sex into a 'bad thing' is only contributing to the problem. You're contributing to the notion that if a woman does have consensual sex without commitment, she should feel offput because it's not societally approved, and she is likely to call rape out of fear of being ostracized. That is puritanical crap.

      Sex has to be left in the place EACH INDIVIDUAL chooses it to be, by their own consent. Your views of sexuality belong only to you, and no man or woman has any obligation to live their lives by your views. We are not just social mammals, we are also sexual beings, with autonomy of our own sexual desires. Our sexual desires are as varied as ice cream flavor preferences, and no one in society is in a position to judge any consensual sexual behavior.

      And the "if it feels good, do it" theory is a joke. The real attitude by MOST people is, "if it feels good, and it's not hurting anyone, do it." You're twisting that into something else, doesn't make your arguments valid. Society's need to stick their nose into the consensual sex lives of others, has led to bans on gay marriage, female genital mutilation, honor killings and Sandra Fluke being called a whore. Your attitudes are, at best, misguided. Society needs to stay out of individual consensual sexual relationships, and focus on preventing the notion that any person's sexuality, belongs to anyone but themselves.

  •  David, I sincerely appreciate this diary. I had... (30+ / 0-)

    David, I sincerely appreciate this diary. I had read an earlier article on this 'men's conference', I believe on HuffPo. I am a rape and sexual assault survivor. One day soon, I intend to write a diary about this issue with more detail in the hopes that other survivors will know that we have the right to not be afraid of how we're perceived. I was 13 years old when I was raped by a stranger at a party. I was repeatedly sexually assaulted through inappropriate touching during my later teen years by my mother's boyfriend. She didn't listen or believe me until after I moved out very suddenly, belongings in a garbage bag, right after my 19th birthday. I thought it could never happen again after that. I was so wrong and naive. He assaulted me again, in MY HOME, just over 4 years ago. I have severed ties with my family except for my grandma. I kept that secret for all those years until this last time. I thought I was protecting my mother (complicated explanation at later date), but I was only hurting myself. After I told my grandma, I found out that he had assaulted my mom's sister at her birthday party. I finally reported my assaults to the police, where they remain on file. The last assault just about destroyed me mentally and psychologically. My husband of 13 years (we've been together for 16 years) was completely broken by what he came home to that night. His wife, who has always been strong, fierce and outgoing, in a fetal position, sobbing and screaming endlessly. It took everything he had to not go kill him that night. I told him I couldn't survive if he went to prison and he isn't that kind of man. We have a truly deep love and a bond that I hope will be unbreakable. It took me over 2 weeks after the last assault to go to a store alone. I still have panic attacks and need medication to help get through for now. Anyway, I just wanted to share this because I won't live in fear and no one should have to. This men's conference disgusts me. I don't hate men. I can, however, hate what too many of them believe. Rape and sexual assault isn't funny nor has it gone away. It is very real. Just ask all the victims who are too intimidated to report it. Right now our country is heading in the wrong direction on women's issues across the board and this needs to end now.

  •  I saw a pic of that meeting my 1st question was... (15+ / 0-)

    Why are all these 40somethings so concerned about what coeds do and don't do - and chuckling about women their daughters' ages at MOST going through?

    My 2nd question was are these guys worried because they're scoping the campus (ick, sick and wrong) or, just perhaps, the very cops who treat sexual assault victims so skeptically?

  •  We tend to think of human relationships as (6+ / 0-)

    bi-lateral, but in fact many are trilateral or triangular. So, for example, in this case, the ultimate beneficiaries of sexual predators are the "protectors," the males that don't aggress and get rewarded with sexual favors for providing comfort and solace.
    Sexual predators don't get put away because they perform a useful service. Those that predate or prey on juveniles are another matter. They ruin the merchandize.

    U.S. culture isn't materialistic because we value things over people, but because people are treated like things. People are treated like property, even as their properties are ignored.

    http://hannah.smith-family.com

    by hannah on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 05:31:19 AM PDT

  •  When one finds rape hilarious (27+ / 0-)

    Then one isn't being "unfairly stereotyped" as a misogynistic asshole. Just saying.

    "Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for a real Republican every time." Harry Truman

    by MargaretPOA on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 05:35:23 AM PDT

  •  The whole men's rights movement is so (18+ / 0-)

    utterly strange to me given men's privileged place in the world. Nothing I hear about it surprises me.

    In our criminal justice system, a Republican is presumed innocent until the 2nd Coming. - Gooserock

    by ExpatGirl on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 05:37:35 AM PDT

  •  Lead story MSNBC.com: (6+ / 0-)

    http://www.msnbc.com/....  I haven't had time to read it. I'm almost afraid to. I've had enough"triggers" the past month, thank you very much!.

    "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

    by NancyWH on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:06:58 AM PDT

  •  Golly, I wish I was the publisher of a newspaper (8+ / 0-)

    just so I could fire a horrible person like Barbara Kay.

    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

    by raptavio on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:19:56 AM PDT

  •  With greater acceptance of female sexuality (7+ / 0-)

    there is less "guilt" to begin with.  That's a great thing for honesty, morals, and happiness.

    I never understood why it would be successful for defense attorneys to paint a rape victim as a "slut."  Because in my mind, the fact that a woman "gets around" makes her allegation stronger.  

    Because, if a woman is fine with consensual sex, why is she accusing a man of raping her?  Why wasn't she fine this time?  Could it be, could it be... because she did not consent this time?    

    Nobody deserves poverty.

    by nominalize on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 06:47:49 AM PDT

  •  Buyer of what? (10+ / 0-)

    For a split second, I was thinking, or rather hoping is the more accurate term, that the "buyer" in this case referred to the buyer/user of the college course, apartment or other arrangement that placed them physically closer to the rapist in the first place.  Then I figured "buyer of what" would be kind of a good comeback to these yahoos anyway, so decided to post.

    This "men's rights" thing seems to be to be cut from the same cloth as white supremacy, with the only difference being that men get raped too simply because the percentage of deviancy in the male population is consistent regardless of sexual orientation.

  •  As a white, straight, Christian, American man... (7+ / 0-)

    ..I wish gatherings of whites and straights and Christians and Americans and men would stop doing and saying stupid and hurtful things in so many venues.  Someone might start to profile us if we keep it up.

    Government works when you elect those who want it to. --askyron (2013)

    by Simul Iustus et Peccator on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 07:29:20 AM PDT

    •  Hmmm... (0+ / 0-)

      The only thing we know about these participants is that they were male.  I saw pictures and there were definitely more than just "white" people there.  There was no listing about whether everyone there was christian or straight, but go ahead and make those assumptions.  

      I really could care less for this MRA crap, but there is no need to bitch about sexism, racism and any other "ism" and then summarily stereotype every other group you don't agree with.  It makes you look like an enormous hypocrite.

      I know I will get painted with all of those brushes now, but oh well, I just hate it when we circle the wagons around here and start picking people off like this.  

      •  i hate it when people say or write (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        serendipityisabitch

        "I could care less" when they mean "couldn't care less".  If you could care less than you care some which is not what it seems you mean to say.

        But, I did not mean to indicate that the assembly in the story were all white, straight, Christian, American and men.  I can see how I might have been interpreted that way.  I meant that I wish that gatherings of whites and gatherings of straights and gatherings of Christians and gatherings of Americans and gatherings of men can and do go off the rails sometimes and it irks me to have them claim to speak for me.

        What is MRA, please?

        Government works when you elect those who want it to. --askyron (2013)

        by Simul Iustus et Peccator on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 05:30:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, you definitely (0+ / 0-)

          care about some weird grammar rule.

          No one is claiming to speak for you unless you decide to put all of these different traits together and allow yourself to be stereotyped by them.  When you start saying "white", "christian", blah blah blah then you obviously care more about the identities of the people rather than their beliefs.

          The funny thing is that you could say anything right now attacking these stereotypes on here because that is the status quo, and people will continue to rec your comments, even if your comments attack me on how I am unclear about how much I do or do not care, and then spend another paragraph trying to clarify how you weren't stereotyping anyone, just hoping that the people whose identities you most closely feel match yours are giving you a bad name.  

          Whatever.  If you need to know what MRA's, please read the article or some of the comments.  I will not spoon feed you the information since you felt the need to comment on this article, I assumed that you did a little research.  I was wrong.

  •  Since Bush the Lesser made sure that rape ... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Diane Gee, a2nite, Old Sailor

    ... by instrument was more or less "OK"*, I suggest that all incoming freshmen be given an instrument of rape and instructions on how to violate any drunk male.

    Problem solved.

    *

    The Bush White House vehemently objected to provisions of the law dealing with rape by instrumentality. When House negotiators pressed to know why, they were met first with silence and then an embarrassed acknowledgement that a key part of the Bush program included invasion of the bodies of prisoners in a way that might be deemed rape by instrumentality under existing federal and state criminal statutes.
    http://harpers.org/...

    Vote rape. Vote torture. Vote War Crimes. Vote with the American top 1%.

    by Yellow Canary on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 07:44:13 AM PDT

  •  Some of the comments (23+ / 0-)

    are fairly sick and insensitive thus far, to what is a HUGE crises among women.  

    One guy can't stop bragging about the epic amounts of consensual sex he has had as proof, errr, that women shouldn't be afraid?

    Another wants us to get societal permission, because without it rape is inevitable?

    Yet another blames rape on the maddonna/whore complex, that we really do want it, and signing on to buyer's remorse.

    1 - Rape is driven by violence and hatred of women more than sexual attraction.

    2 - every 6 minutes a woman is raped in this country

    3 - 99% of rapes have a male perpetrator, be it against a female  or male.

    We have spent decades telling women how not to get raped, and anytime someone makes it a man's issue as well - asking men to spread the message "don't rape" the backlash by men is disgusting.

    If you are worried about women seeing you as a potential rapist, that is YOUR problem.  We have been doing that all along.  Forever.  You just didn't know it.  We look over our shoulders in parking lots, size you up in conversation.  One in 4 of us are raped in our lives, it seems higher anecdotally, in fact it is a rare female I know that hasn't been assaulted, or had an attempt made.

    AVM is a vile organization, and Paul Elam, its founder espouses violence to women and claims we enjoy rape.

    If thats what you are defending, you are misogynist scum.

    **

    Thanks for this great essay, David, shared widely.

    Thanks to the people who gave positive comments, or shared their painful stories, bravely.

    Sorry I let the rape apologists into my brain on this thread, I feel dirty after reading them....

     

    ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

    by Diane Gee on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 07:46:37 AM PDT

    •  Seconding in a big way. (5+ / 0-)

      Thank you, Diane Gee

      There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

      by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 09:39:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  the "don't rape" thing is stupid (0+ / 0-)

      you're making a stupid assumption that there are rapists out there that don't know that's what they are doing. That's simply not the case. They are no different from a common burglar; opportunists of the worst kind. They case a house(woman) break in and take what they want. Nowhere in this country is there ever a bunch of guys high-fiving each other over rape.

      But no, let's face this "crisis" for women.

      Women get most the college degrees.

      Most of gendered medical research is for their problems.

      Schools treat boys like defective girls.

      Father's, like my own, are shut out of their own children's lives by their mother's and a corrupt family court system.

      Despite the fact that women make up most of the poor, men make up most of the homeless.. There's clearly a floor that society gives women that they don't mind men falling through.

      Despite the fact that women only make 70cents on every dollar a man makes.. women control the vast majority of the disposable income in the country. Clearly there's too much redistribution going on.

      Domestic Violence is treated like a gendered problem when it's really 40%-60% problem.. Women commit 40% and they are gaining ground.

      Most rape victims, when you consider prison rape, are men. and I'm going to pre-empt, if you say that the all the perpetrators in those cases are men... then you're just blaming the victim.

      In criminal courts men are convicted at higher rates for the same crimes that women commit and get longer jail sentences. In fact the difference in those statistics are larger for the male/female split than it is the white/black.

      But sure. Let's focus all of our energy on women's crisis and shut out anyone who tries to take away one iota of attention from their "dire" issues and examine men's for just a second.

      I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE ANOTHER BLOG THAT DARES TO QUESTION WHY MEN BREAK FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHEN YOU'RE SO TONE DEAF ON THESE ISSUES.

      The ridicules thing is that the republican party doesn't even focus on these issues. They pay no attention but at least they aren't spitting in men's face over it either. If we embraced men's rights we could kill the republican party. But spitting at every man who is humble enough to admit that he and his gender need help, politically and socially without being called a potential rapist, should work too. This same strategy is working so great for republicans with women. Keep spitting.

      •  Wow, when you decide to actually comment (10+ / 0-)

        you do a great job of sticking to talking points for the MRA, don't you? Do you have indigestion, after swallowing all that bilge? Tums might help....

        And in a diary about campus rape, which your points don't even cover. Your other comments have been ignored, right? This one should draw a bit more attention.

        I haven't seen any evidence that we've been questioning that men "break for the republican party" - have you got a link to support that one? It's all caps, it must be important to you, so - link? Links to proof for your previous statements would, I suspect, be too much to ask for.

        Please proceed....

        mouseover the bar (I'm practicing for DK5)

        by serendipityisabitch on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 10:47:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Rhubarb Pie (11+ / 0-)

        Ingredients
            1     qt.  (4 cups) sliced rhubarb
            1-1/4     cups  sugar
            2    Tbsp.  MINUTE Tapioca
            1    tsp.  grated orange zest
            1    pkg.  (15 oz.) ready-to-use refrigerated pie crusts
                  (2 crusts)
            1    Tbsp.  butter or margarine, cut up

            PREHEAT oven to 425°F. Mix rhubarb, sugar, tapioca and orange zest in large bowl. Let stand 15 minutes.

            PLACE 1 of the pie crusts in 9-inch pie plate. Fill with fruit mixture; dot with butter. Cover with remaining crust; seal and flute edge. Cut several slits in top crust to allow steam to escape.

            BAKE 45 to 50 minutes or until juices form bubbles that burst slowly. Cool.

        If it's
        Not your body,
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        And it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 11:03:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So no one can ever talk about rape huh? (9+ / 0-)

        So until all these issues are dealt with - allegedly fair courts, domestic violence against men, homelessness etc - no one should ever talk about rape or violence against women?  Sure, that makes sense.  NOT.

        You are also wrong in some of your presuppositions, or at the least badly twisting things.

        First, even counting victims of prison rape (and it is appalling how prisons have dragged their feet dealing with violence), most rape victims are still women, per RAINN.

        Female-on-male (not to mention in male-male relationships) DV is a problem, and needs to be addressed, but even so more women by far end up dying than men.

        Courts are not as unfair as people think to married dads.  They actually do pretty well these days in family courts.  Still tougher for unmarried ones but regardless of marital status, what helps here is pretty much the trump card in all of the US: money.  Got the bucks to hire a decent lawyer?  Your good (being white and middle class or above always helpful as well).

        Homelessness: The disproportionate # of homeless men is due to many reasons.  Combat vets, alas, from Vietnam to today's Iraq and Afghan wars have not gotten the help they need and too many end up homeless.  Our failure as a society to deal with mental illness (there is practically no safety net) and our failures to address substance abuse.  (There is also a lot of overlap between untreated mental illness and substance abuse in the homeless population).  These are difficult to address, and it isn't as tho' conservatives who dominate many state leges are exactly eager to fund projects to help homeless people.

        Sputtering bile and dipshit MRA talking points is gonna do fuck all to help on any of these issues.  Of course, as all know and MRAs never admit, MRAs have zero intent to actually help make society better or more fair.  It is all about hating on women.  It's the KKK for doodz, and nutty self haters like Phyllis Schafly and her ilk.

        •  first i never said that women's issues can't be (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sparhawk

          handled. All I said is that men's issues shouldn't be excluded from the conversation and that bringing up men's issues shouldn't be tantamount to ignoring women's issues or misogyny.

          Yes, it's true that more women end up dead due to DV. but no one pretends that's not the case. DV against men is ignored, or even laughed at.

          The personal is political. I know first hand how the family courts can act when being driven by a vindictive woman.

          Homelessness: fascinating that breaking down the number's for reasons works so well here.. but the act of breaking down the wage gap for reasons is sexist.

          if the MRM is there to hate on women, then clearly feminism is there to hate on men. oh wait, it's not? Not even when I can show you quotes by famous and published feminist who openly talk about male genocide?  Still not? Phyllis Schafly is not a friend to men's rights.
          http://www.youtube.com/...

          •  Phyllis Schafly?! (5+ / 0-)

            She's more a friend to men then she is to her fellow women for god's sake. You need to do some none biased reading on her.

            Schafly opposed the Equal Right's amendment for multiple reasons.

            And the video you linked to is completely twisted from beginning to end.  There's no shadings there. None.

            Unconscious, subconscious forces is what makes this battle for male equality, male sovereignty, male independence........

            Really?

            And it only goes down the tubes from there.

            You need to get out more.

            There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

            by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 03:59:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, and by the way, no one in their right (6+ / 0-)

            mind would consider Phyllis freakin Schafly a feminist.

            No one.

            And one other thing, what on earth does discussing rape and assorted other acts of Violence Against Women have to do with feminism?

            Can't women and the men who love them discuss the issues without being labeling anything beyond caring human beings?

            It seems to me that "Feminism" is being used as a way to dismiss and diminish a vitally important issue.  Guess what, it won't work.

            There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

            by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 04:41:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Feminism = the astonishing notion women are human (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            serendipityisabitch, Old Sailor

            This is still a scary revelation for certain men.

          •  Also, the courts? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Old Sailor

            Any vindictive man can use the courts to harass an ex too.  There are lots of cruel people out there, all it takes is money and determination.  You seem to think only evil wimminz to this.  Unfortunately it is still too easy for such people to use and abuse the courts - don't delude yourself this is some sort of uniquely female trait.

            And why don't MRAs work on DV shelters for men?  A lot of 'em support beating up women, I guess they don't reallly think anything really is wrong with DV.

      •  disgusting.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ahianne, Lysis, bogieshadow

        lies and the lying liars who tell them.

        poor, poor men...  how dare anyone say raping women is bad, and a crisis...  it hurts poor anime's feelings.

        Isn't anime itself mostly cartoon porn for pervs anyway?

        A perfect moniker for a knuckledragging misogynist.  

        ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

        by Diane Gee on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 11:22:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you're understanding of both the MRM (0+ / 0-)

          and Japanese culture is staggering. You're dig at anime could be considered racist. and the 1973 part of my screen name was created as support to women's issues, particularly to abortion rights.

          and no one is saying that rape against women is bad and that's the point. Everyone knows that rape against women is bad. I'm just sick of seeing men's issues being ignored. like any focus on men's issues simply detracts from women's.

          •  Here's an idea. (5+ / 0-)

            Why don't you write a diary on the men's issues that are so important to you. Other men have and have gotten a great deal of support.

            There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

            by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 04:46:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  tried before. the feminists on this site are (0+ / 0-)

              really insecure and whip out the HRs to bully anyone who doesn't go along with their ideas.

              •  A few things (3+ / 0-)

                Not every woman on this site defines themselves as a feminist and not all feminists are women.

                People who do not defined themselves as Feminists may not agree with your posts. It could be due to lousy writing, bad points, or both.

                Oh, and Feminism is not a dirty word. Do try to be a little more accurate, will you?

                There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

                by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:17:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i was being specific. (0+ / 0-)

                  One of the first things you learn un the mrm is that very few woman self identify as feminist

                  •  No. You're not being specific. (4+ / 0-)

                    I looked at your diaries. In one two people HR'd a tip jar. Neither described themselves as a feminist. One was male. The issue seems to have been with the validity of the science in your post.

                    Feminism is not the problem. Patriarchy is. It hurts men and women alike. But saying that to you is akin to spitting in the wind. I'm done.

                    There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

                    by Onomastic on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 06:07:21 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  sounds like blaming the victim (0+ / 0-)
                      •  Only if you're invested in being one. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        serendipityisabitch, Old Sailor

                        If on the other hand you really do care about the causes of suicide and prevention you have not shown that. You're laying a number of issues at the feet of supposed feminists instead of looking at reality.

                        For example -

                        Economic Policy Kills

                        A new study reveals how harmful the economic crisis has been for the public.

                        “There has been a substantial rise in ‘economic suicides’ in the Great Recessions afflicting Europe and North America,” the paper, published earlier this month in the British Journal of Psychiatry, states. “We estimate that the Great Recession is associated with at least 10,000 additional economic suicides between 2008 and 2010.”

                        http://www.progressive.org/...

                        There is also the draconian cuts in funding to mental health services that have gone on for years of course. Etc, etc.

                        It's a serious issue that deserves serious thought and action, neither of which you are providing. Instead you blame women for suicide rates and everything else, as if women held all political and economic power.

                        It's all divorced from any verifiable reality.

                        So here's the last thing I'll ever write to you. Women and Feminists are not your mother and you need to grow up.

                        There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

                        by Onomastic on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 07:28:57 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Aw, hey, no hating on the anime... (0+ / 0-)

          ...and I don't mean that fool you folks have been trying to talk sense to.  "Most" animé--that I've seen, anyway--is NOT porn.  There certainly is a subset of animé that is--that's hentai, and most of what I've seen in that genre (admittedly, not much), is actually COMEDY (though some was gross and grossly WEIRD).  At least, it was funny to me, anyway.  :-p

          Most animé and manga that I know about (yes, I know this leaves me open to info I might need brain-bleach to clean out, after) is about school, sports, fantasy/science-fiction stories and romances and is aimed at youth and young adults.  Any sex at all is implied or suggested through ritualized formula-things like kissing, colour-changes in a scene with the characters staring meaningfully at each other (complete with falling drifts of flowers, believe it or not), and slang/euphemisms that seem bizarre to us Gaijin.

          Liking animé does not make someone a knuckledragger.  Spewing bullshit like this guy has been doing does.  And, this anime1973 fellow is scaring me with his verbatim Red Pill talking points and he really needs to go away.

          If we acknowledge our fears, then we must also acknowledge the consequences of our actions when we react to those fears. Hate is based on fear, fear comes from a lack of understanding. When you understand, it is more difficult to hate.

          by TheProgressiveAlien on Thu Jul 03, 2014 at 11:45:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  "Nowhere in this country is there ever a bunch of (7+ / 0-)
        Nowhere in this country is there ever a bunch of guys high-fiving each other over rape.
        That remark saved me from wasting more of my time  reading you.

        ...wispy longings for a time before Elvis and the Beatles, back when "a girl could cook and still would". You know before the troubles.~Hunter.

        by denig on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 11:51:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  BINGO! I got an MRA BINGO!!!!!!! Three of 'em! (4+ / 0-)

        “[Sir Arthur Conan Doyle] created Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson - which proves he was way ahead of his time on gay marriage.” - Bill Maher

        by gardnerhill on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 12:30:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You'll find a very empathic group with MRA types (7+ / 0-)

        You: "you're making a stupid assumption that there are rapists out there that don't know that's what they are doing."

        - In a survey of male college students:

        · One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)

        You: "They are no different from a common burglar; opportunists of the worst kind. They case a house(woman) break in and take what they want."
        How generous of you to compare rape with common burglary.  I'm sure having a TV or jewelry stolen is exactly the same as being raped.
         

        You: "Nowhere in this country is there ever a bunch of guys high-fiving each other over rape."

        Horrifying new trend: Posting rapes to Facebook

        "In Chicago this weekend, prosecutors announced three teenaged boys will tried as adults for aggravated criminal sexual assault after allegedly raping a 12-year-old girl — and posting a video of the attack on Facebook."

        "Last year, Jared Len Cruise was convicted of sexual assault in a brutal gang rape of an 11-year-old Texas girl — a crime that was recorded on a cell phone and circulated around the girl’s school."

        "And in Steubenville, Ohio – perhaps the most infamous example — Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond were convicted in March of raping a classmate and then sharing images from the night and “hundreds of text messages from more than a dozen cell phones.” It was a collection of gleeful, callous boasting that the judge later declared “profane and ugly.”

        High-fiving indeed.

        America, where a rising tide lifts all boats! Unless you don't have a boat...uh...then it lifts all who can swim! Er, uh...um...and if you can't swim? SHAME ON YOU!

        by Back In Blue on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 12:36:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm truly sorry that what happened to you (6+ / 0-)

        and your family was so painful and deeply wish it was otherwise. It shouldn't happen to anyone.

        That is a separate issue from the broad and mistaken brush with which you paint everything, including rape statistics.  

        Frankly I'm just not seeing this huge persecution directed at white males, unless women, POC, and the LGBT communities insisting that they have rights too is a problem for you.

        No one is denying that men suffer too. What people are claiming is the right to speak the reality they live with each day, a life defined by a society where the white hetero male is considered the norm.

        Whether you like it or not, Violence Against Women is a problem in this country, across the world actually. Whether you like it or not racism is embedded in our society. Whether you like it or not the fight for LGBT rights is a moral necessity. And we're going to talk about all of it.

        It some white men feel threatened by that then perhaps they need to do a little self examination and figure out why.

        You do not get to define what is worthy of discussion by screaming "men's rights."

        What you're exhibiting doesn't have anything to do with "rights." It's a privileged temper tantrum, straight up.

        Frankly, if you represent the "white men" we're supposed to shut up for and court, we're better off without you and those like you.

        You know why? Because you'd flush the rest of us right down the toilet without any consideration of our rights what so ever. And that says everything.

        Have a good day.

        There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

        by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 02:16:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  below (0+ / 0-)
          No one is denying that men suffer too. What people are claiming is the right to speak the reality they live with each day, a life defined by a society where the white hetero male is considered the norm.
          actually they regularly deny it. and even when they don't deny it  they treat it as unimportant, funny or completely secondary to women's issues. That's wrong. also I don't know why you are talking about "white" men in particular. black men have it worse than white men and we stand up for them too. Gay men also have problems. though the MRM stands up for them as men; not as a person of color or gays because each of those groups already have their own rights movements and structural support.

          This is a response that a real feminist gave upon hearing about male suicide statistics.

          http://www.youtube.com/...

          her response is "cry me a river". it would be a national tragedy if women were killing themselves 4x more often than men.

          •  You keep going to the same paranoia (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Diane Gee, Old Sailor

            inducing well, don't you? Why were those men talking to her in the first place? What's the context here? I assume there is one.

            Was she discussing issues they didn't deem important enough, like you do?

            Are women somehow magically responsible for men's suicides or something?

            Oh, and by the way, some of the comments attached to that video were vile, but apparently that's ok with you.

            Have fun with that.

            There is something in us that refuses to be regarded as less than human. We are created for freedom - Archbishop Desmond Tutu

            by Onomastic on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:26:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  arguing with this paranoid (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Onomastic, Old Sailor

              person is fruitless.

              Anyone asking to have equal power to the entrenched patriarchy we live under threatens him.

              I gave up trying to reason with crazy people a long time ago.  I think between you and I, we made a case clear enough any sane reader will see reality.  

              Thanks so much for your reasoned calmed input.  

              ..the smoker you drink, the player you get....

              by Diane Gee on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 06:17:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  My jaw dropped, literally, when .... (5+ / 0-)

    ... I read the words Ms. Kay spoke out loud.  Clearly she knew people would hear her.  

    The new definition of self loathing.  The Log Cabin Republicans have a thing or two to learn from her.

  •  I think a big problem is (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CroneWit, jan4insight

    The self-perception that "I am a pretty good person, so the things that I do are good." This kind of thinking allows a person to break into an old folks home and photograph a patient, and it allows a guy to think that pinning down a woman to get things going is OK.

    All rapes are not committed by psychopaths hiding in the bushes. Overwhelming a person physically or using drugs and drink to get what you want when there is no consent, feel like assaults to the person on the receiving end.

    the future begins

    by zozie on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:21:22 AM PDT

  •  . (5+ / 0-)

    Sick men with issues they don't even recognize within themselves.

    "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance." -James Madison

    by FreeTradeIsYourEpitaph on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 08:37:48 AM PDT

  •  If you're interested in reading more of the MRA... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Onomastic, Ahianne, bogieshadow

    If you're interested in reading more of the MRAs' sickening bile, I recommend David Futrelle's wehuntedthemammoth.com. He keeps an eye on their "movement" and it's kind of terrifying and fascinating.

  •  I was just dismissed from a jury pool for a case (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ahianne, mrkvica

    where this issue was on full display. The charge(s) involved rape of a sleeping or unconscious person (why this is distinguished from rape in general is also a bit telling). Fortunately the judge had each counsel give a little mini-opener to the prospective jurors. It was quite clear to me that the defense was going to rely almost exclusively on slut-shaming, innuendo, and a term I certainly had never heard of before: "regret sex". Seriously? A women is going to put herself on the stand to face horribly personal questioning because she regretted have sex with someone? During my interview I let the defense know in no uncertain terms that I would not be convinced by that kind of BS (I was more polite and respectful of the court, of course). They had to use a peremptory challenge on me. Another juror even sent a note to the judge expressing that what I had said had stirred latent emotions in him (in the ensuing conversation he was dismissed for hardship).
    I agree with your saying that men should be stereotyped as sexual offenders -  for our, as well as others', benefit. If more men were fully conscious of the seriousness of these charges I think these violent acts would occur less frequently. The defendant in the case, because it involved more than three charges, is facing life in prison. Not a good outcome for anyone involved.

  •  Boys will be Boys... (0+ / 0-)

    Some of them never grow up.

    Only a government drowning in arrogance and hubris or a government run by psychopaths and sociopaths would pick [Russia as] an enemy. Paul Craig Roberts

    by dharmasyd on Sun Jun 29, 2014 at 01:00:02 PM PDT

  •  Said it before, I'll say it again. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Old Sailor, bogieshadow

    Any real legitimacy that the "Men's Rights" movement had dissipated ages ago when it got hijacked by misogynists, sexual predators, and despicable motherfuckers.

    We will be richer for its demise.

  •  I really like this line, you were right (0+ / 0-)

    To emphasize it:

    I will not be stereotyped as a sexual offender, and thus I will not laugh like one.
    That is the key thing. When men stop acting like offenders in any way, then they will not be assumed to be one.



    Women create the entire labor force.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 01:15:07 PM PDT

  •  Going to bed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    serendipityisabitch

    Today was not a good day for someone like me.

    1. female

    2. feminist

    3. Union worker

    This story just sent me to bed. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

  •  ANY female can be raped.A tiny baby.A toddler.A... (0+ / 0-)

    ANY female can be raped.A tiny baby.A toddler.A teen.A mom.A prostitute.A great great grandma.A nun.Gay or straight.NO female is exempt from that potential,given the proper circumstances.

    Rape is NOT about sex or consent.It is about control.An act of Violence.So many males think they are "entitled"to the woman.

    And so many good men would never act that way,they would consider their sisters or nieces or so forth and not do something so horrid.

    In a lot of cases girls and women are victimized by someone they know and trust who takes advantage of them before they can react.

    And when young women find themselves in these terrible situations they are often very naive about who can be trusted until it's too late to undo.And when they reach out to ask for help theyre shocked when they are blamed and shamed and usually don't understand why this is happening to them.A lot of these young college girls come from sheltered environments where they know everyone and the people they are exposed to are screened for safety.And in college this setup obviously isn't the case.And is blantently taken advantage of by bad people.

    Maybe we need to start hearing every side not just the one we want to hear.And realize that the problems are much worse than we care to admit.

  •  I'm not laughing. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    War4Sale

    If these guys want the 'OMG Rape' cry to stop being raised, then perhaps they should consider, you know, not allowing rape to happen.

    My response to this 'joke' would have been "And if it were YOUR DAUGHTER that had 'buyer's remorse' would you think the same?  No?  I didn't think so. Shut up, and sit down, you suck."

    The Rich and Spoiled 1%'ers are making the Biker Gang 1%'ers look a lot better than they used to.

    by dcnblues on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 11:34:29 AM PDT

  •  Crime is crime and some don't get it. (0+ / 0-)

    This is not about humor or how we all feel about ourselves.

    No one is born a criminal, no matter gender. This is not a male issue. This is not a female issue. This is about a crime and it happens to anyone at any time, like murder.

    No matter what some idiot says, this stays a crime. Would we excuse the rapes of children or a grandmother? Of course not. Then why is this a discussion at all? There are always talentless and ignorant people who call themselves entertainers/media experts, etc. Why bother listening to anything they grunt? We have better things to do.

    Since the W Bush mal-administration, I noticed a distinct lack of respect increase regarding any non-wealthy, non-white, non-male group (the non-Bushes). That includes a whole lot of us. This worship of violent crime is a tea party obsession and gets press since it titillates the most ignorant and most violent in this culture. Limbaugh advocating women be murdered is an example. We allow this to go on. I really don't think most average Americans are going to listen to a dope-addled has-been shock jock for advice on what to do to other people. We are kind of busy trying to survive right now. The tea party is trying to make that impossible for most Americans.

    In any culture, there will be individuals who are desperate for attention and will say anything to get that. I avoid exposure to that toxic garbage whenever I can. That eliminates the waste of time spent discussing the filth they spew to their limited audience of dysfunctional losers, of any gender.

    As long as crime is crime, it does not matter what someone says unless that someone is in a position of power. In that case, that someone has to be removed from that position of power by reliable, established means and with plenty of public exposure so the general public can also participate in that necessary removal. Tell local media and others if possible. If safety is compromised by such media attention, have someone else make the public campaign a factor.

    The fantasizing about doing crime to women and children is a symptom of a few who simply can't have a normal relationship with anyone. The obsessions with allowing domestic violence by our tea party membership in the House (the VAWA vote) was just another example of what happens when American voters sit and allow sick people to occupy "elected" gerrymandered offices and on the tax dollar. Until Americans decide to become informed with facts and then show up to vote (despite the usual vote-prevention efforts by our taxpayer-supported tea party) nothing will change.

    If we can't manage to acquire backbones and call out crime for what it is, then we are responsible. The Steubenville rape case in Ohio is a great example of what does not take place re justice due to tea party influence and extreme corruption in state office. The "boys" involved in that assault intended to commit murder and said so on social media. The underage victim did survive. The illiterate and corrupt Kasich administration Att General for Ohio, Mike DeWine, allowed that case to go nowhere and later on was found to be in support of the usual tea party anti-female agenda. Why be surprised when we allow filth to occupy taxpayer-supported offices? This is what they do. They support crime. Why listen to this nonsense? You run your own campaign and on your own until somebody notices and joins in. Persistence pays.

    I corresponded with DeWine re that case and found that this Att General can't even write a coherent paragraph. As a licensed property manager, I have to know what to do about underage crime and tenant screenings. That is a huge issue in rental properties since juvenile records are not public. DeWine couldn't answer basic questions about this important issue. Laws? Ask qualified legal professionals for their opinions. A family can include a serial offender with a history of serious violent offenses and include a child under the age of 18 and I would not know as a PM. This remains a danger to other tenants in Ohio due to lack of action by those in office. This is why rapes occur and juveniles can't be screened out of rental properties. DeWine should be handling this issue and is incapable of doing so as Att General. That is the culture of the tea party. This is why business and investment is not attracted to Ohio.

    Since we are on our own regarding calls for justice, we can use the means we have available. Social media is handy for demands for justice. Crime victims should not be exposed to the usual stalking and harassment from our sick population, which is in the minority. Normal people will take up for the victim and bring attention to the crime committed. Petitions exist--use them. Make this a public issue with real consequences for specific cases. Many of these petitions get responses. I don't know one person who would not support the call for justice for a crime victim. We all know that criminals are always going to play victims and cry and lie.

    The effects of money and influence on the justice non-system is a real issue especially in corrupt tea party states due to the corrupt people being paid off while in office and by special interest funders. In Ohio, we have NRA cash in operation besides other funders who pay to have corrupt people installed in office.  This is the crux of the issue regarding enforcement funding for law enforcement. Crime becomes more common and local areas are pushed to financial exhaustion trying to cope with it all. Local taxes are taken by the state administration and never go back to the taxpayers's areas. Poverty increases and demand for law enforcement ramps up at the same time. The Kasich administration specializes in this kind of game playing. Kasich actually blames police for crime. What is the chance for any justice to be enacted in poverty stricken states in which office holders are corrupt? Why do we think we see so much vocal support for crime from certain sectors? Who listens to encouragement to commit crimes? That is the only audience for this garbage. The vast majority of people never pay attention to this kind of mindless oratory about men being criminals. Blaming is a time wasting exercise. We know better so we act on specifics and facts.

    As for our tea party criminals, there is only one thing to do:  make sure they receive your frequent and emphatic correspondence via www.USA.gov  

    Track voting records via Mega Vote and show up to vote out the criminals we allow to sit in office. That would help.

  •  Barbara Kay: a self-hating shrew? (0+ / 0-)

    Or an opportunistic female cynically pandering to male misogynists?  

    Either way, she's like the double X chromosome equivalent of Clarence Thomas.

    Feel trickled on yet?

    by War4Sale on Tue Jul 01, 2014 at 01:55:37 PM PDT

  •  That is a GREAT line. (0+ / 0-)
    I will not be stereotyped as a sexual offender, and thus I will not laugh like one.
    It's funny how that gets missed by those complaining of men being stereotyped - that when you defend or dismiss such behavior, you ARE acting like the stereotypical offender. Much like, when you dismiss racial stereotyping in this nation as non-existent, you are behaving just like those who do discriminate.

    Acknowledgement goes a long way.

  •  Thank you for this diary! What we tend to forge... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    serendipityisabitch

    Thank you for this diary!

    What we tend to forget is that police are humans. They are us and they reflect the culture in which they are based. If we want our police to adequately reflect our cultures and our values, we need to fundamentally change how we perceive the world.

    We need to acknowledge that the rapists are the problem. This is not a uniquely female problem. This is a societal problem where men are the predominate offenders. Everyone needs to acknowledge their complicity to shift the dynamic from blaming the victim to blaming the perpetrator.

    You spelled it out righteously. Thank you for holding people who laugh at rape victims to account for their actions.

    Men's rights are valid in the context that they are people, too. But, most of the men's rights groups have set up an 'us vs them' dichotomy that is false and destructive. From what I have seen and read, men's rights want to subjugate all those who are not men. Can we shift the dynamic from 'if you have equal power as me, that means I have less power?' Can we fundamentally shift the definition of masculinity from 'not feminine' and allow men the same latitude and freedoms afforded to women? Can men allow themselves that freedom?

    Women's rights groups work for the betterment of everyone, not just women. Feminisism is a tide that can and will lift all ships.

  •  The reality is that these men that attended the... (0+ / 0-)

    The reality is that these men that attended the so-called men's rights convention are nothing more than bullies & cowards. It's easy for them to pick on defenseless individuals & get away with it. That's why it important for women & others to learn self-defense techniques.

  •  idea (0+ / 0-)

    Let's enact a law requiring smart phone video recorded agreements before either party can have sex. So if a woman doesn't have my agreement on video, I can claim rape, and vice versa.

  •  overstating (0+ / 0-)

    Rape is a truly serious problem. It happens to too many people, both male and female, and is then ignored or ridiculed. The result, ironically, depends on the person. However, for most people who are raped, it is a trauma that must be dealt with or it can effectively ruin their lives. The victim is best helped with understanding and care, neither of which is always easy to find.

    Rape is serious.

    However, it is possible to overstate the seriousness: "Culture of rape" in America is one of those slogans that so overstates the issue that it actually does more damage to fixing the issue than it brings any light or understanding to the issue.

    Rape is serious. In fact, it is too serious and too damaging to too many people to treat it with hysterical slogans and statements.

  •  I'm late to the show, but... (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for standing up for women; it's a very strong and honest thing to do.
    I was date-raped by my daughter's father, I was seeing him but had not agreed to sex...he would not let me leave his place, but who would believe a woman who had been drinking? He sexually assaulted a psychologically venerable woman years later when his new wife had just had her baby; people believed me then.

  •  At first I was misled by the title of this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    serendipityisabitch

    article. I thought it was referring to the fact that many women who have been raped were now expressing regret that they did not come forward and press charges to the full extent of the law at the time they were assaulted. So many women fail to do anything but retreat into their own horrific silence because they are too frightened about what happened to them. It is downright sickening, to say the least. I am aware that there is a growing trend now of women no longer being so afraid - more of them are standing up for themselves and challenging law enforcement and the courts to do something about this awful national scourge. Kudos to all of them!

  •  Case by case... (0+ / 0-)

    "Majority of female students allegedly raped on campus are actually voicing buyer’s remorse..."

    It probably does happen occasionally.  Almost every conceivable situation probably occurs sometimes.   I doubt very much that it is true in most cases.  

    Every case should be considered individually, and investigated by the police and the district attorney, not by some board of college administrators.  

    And it should be recognized that sometimes there will be no justice.  Everyone has to be careful, and women more careful than men.  

    But I had an army buddy who got drunk and came down with syphilis.  He couldn't remember a thing.  

    Sometimes it is just two drunken fools.  Legally, that makes the man a rapist.  That's the law, even if it isn't justice..

  •  Not all men are raptists (0+ / 0-)

    Not all men are potential rapists but are thought of in that way because of the actions of a lot men and the way they laugh at so called jokes about rape.
    When this woman sees a man laugh at or make a joke about rape and the victims of rape I do wonder if they are guilty of that crime and that is why they find the joke funny.
    Rape isn't anything to laugh at or make fun of it, it is demeaning and violent and harms the victim both physically and mentally especially when the victim is blamed for being raped.
    When I was a teenager, and a female reported a rape the first question asked by the police was"What did you do to make him do this?" and it was asked even when the rape victim was almost killed and lying in a hospital bed from her injuries. Many years has passed since those days  but blaming the rape victim is still the norm not the exception and it shouldn't be that way. If woman says no she means no not go ahead and rape me nor does her not fighting back mean she wants to be raped it means she is to scared to fight back. In my younger years women were told by the police to not fight back that way they wouldn't get hurt so badly then when they didn't fight back the same police told them they must have wanted it because they didn't  fight  their rapist. Rape happens to both sexes and don't belief that a man can't be raped because they can. All rapists should be put in jail and the key thrown away they can not be cured of their raping urge.

  •  "Alleged" rape (0+ / 0-)

    From this article we learn that:

    A certain percentage of men are uncomplicated delivery systems for sperm.  Their behavior is built around that single motivation.

    While they do attempt to impregnate any available female, that behavior is coupled with the certainty that they personally, NEVER commit a crime.  No matter what they do.

    They easily fabricate/rationalize/fantasize verbalizations that 'prove' their own behavior is not their own fault.  

    Those 'reasons' are the verbal equivalent of dandruff.

  •  Ladies Vote the Bastards out of Office (0+ / 0-)

    It is unbelievable what men do to women as their "right"
    At work, at home, to the neighbor, to fellow students, or students by teachers, to their employees, in the armed forces, in Congress, and at Church. The privileged, wealthy, entitled, bosses, fathers, husbands, Ministers all do it all the time and LOL because they know they can.
    Rapist, Molesters, and Beaters are what they are. You so called Christion, Job Creators and your friends are worse than any third world non Christion country, right here in the good right wing USA.    

  •  I think the worst part of these jokes (0+ / 0-)

    is that, sadly, they ARE rooted in some amount of truth. Two people go out under mutually innocent pretenses, get utterly blitzed, and end up doing things that one or the other wouldn't have while sober. The guy would be congratulated and held in esteem by his peers; the woman belittled and humiliated; thus, rather than face that, she says rape. Or, she IS sober, he's not, or they both are, but it was a "moment of indiscretion".

    Yes, these things happen. And it infuriates me, because it belittles those who legitimately go through the situation. I would never CLAIM this is "actually" what's happening, not without proof (like a Facebook post going 'OMG just went home with Brad and we did the dirty, what was I thinking lol' which devolved into 'I know I'll say he raped me') but in that VERY SMALL percentage of instances it does happen, they just give that much more ammo to the people who claim, like this, it's a "majority"

  •  RAPE (0+ / 0-)

    Revolt
    Against
    Patriarchal
    Evolution

    Girls -- it's your father's fault!  Who are the Dad's that cause their daughters to believe they have to have sex to believe they are wanted women?  Dad's that don't treat their daughters as though they matter.

    WENDY DAVIS for Texas Governor!

  •  Those guys aren't men. They are horrible slugs.... (0+ / 0-)

    Those guys aren't men. They are horrible slugs. Throw backs.

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