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Netroots Nation announced that its 2015 national palaver will be in Phoenix, Daily Kos announced it won't officially participate because Arizona politics sucks, and for progressives it was like somebody dipped a haunch of lamb into the Amazon to test for piranhas.

Before anybody could jerk the meat back into the canoe, only a bare bone survived.

For once, I'm not ranting in favor of the piranhas or the peacemakers. I'm just sharing some personal observations that have built up over the past 33 years.

Feel free to hide a piranha in my lunchbox.

As for whether Daily Kos boycotts or not, Kos is a big boy and gets to make his own decisions -- I'm not generally in favor of enforcing conformity, as long as everybody gets to decide for themselves.

Kos writer Mother Mags of Phoenix already provided an excellent overview on ways that today's Phoenix doesn't fit the outsiders' Arizona stereotype, so most of my ramblings will be background.

Keep in mind that if a county or district is 53 percent registered Republican, chances are the elected officials will all be Republican because of the party's high voter turnout. And these days, yes, that's likely to mean Tea Baggin', race-baitin' moon-howlers get elected.

But the other half of the citizens go right on with life.

Arizona-bashing progressives need to remember that with all of the state's faults, it produced Tucson -- the third city in the U.S. to pass a gay-rights ordinance, back in the Bronze Age of 1977. Since Anita Bryant managed to get the Miami-Dade law repealed, I guess Tucson's is the second-oldest such law in the country.

Pretty damn progressive for 1977.

Soon after we moved to Tucson in 1981, a Baptist preacher who'd moved there a few months earlier discovered there was a gay-rights ordinance in place and decided, "Well! We'll just take care of that right now!"

He couldn't even get enough signatures to put it on the ballot.

Pretty damn progressive for 1981 or so.

For a young same-sex couple with two toddlers via a surrogate and fears that the state would take the kids away from us if word got around, Tucson in the 1980s was as good as it was going to get. (We didn't even know of any other couples in a similar situation.) The relationship didn't survive the move, but the kids turned out fine.

One of the last big kerfuffles I remember before leaving Tucson was a vote on building the first high school in the upscale Catalina Foothills School District. As I recall it, when the election was scheduled it was considered a slam-dunk -- the district was busing 700 high school kids a day (I believe it was) into the Tucson district, and it obviously would be cheaper in the long run to have a high school in the foothills.

But exit polls on election day indicated a sea change. One comment that stuck in my mind was something like, "My husband and I discussed it at breakfast and decided our kids need to attend school in the city, with all different kinds of people, to prepare them for the real world."

Pretty damn progressive for the mid-1980s.

A short time later, I moved to Phoenix and one of the first kerfuffles I remember there was a group of Scottsdale residents demanding that a portion of south Scottsdale be de-annexed and turned over to either Phoenix or Tempe.

Latinos had moved into that area, and this group of fine citizens didn't want a Latino neighborhood in their suburb nor Latino kids in their school district.

My point is that not so long ago maybe Phoenix and Scottsdale were part of the Arizona problem, but the Phoenix of today has almost nothing in common with the Phoenix of 25 years ago. Outside of the central core I still wouldn't say it's an anthill of progressive activists, but it's moving with the rest of the country.

The Phoenix mayor, Paul Johnson, and his wife, Patty, are both outspoken advocates for LGBT acceptance and other 21st-century attitudes, as are Tucson Mayor Jonothan Rothschild and Bisbee Mayor Adriana Badal, among others. U.S. Rep. Raul Grijalva of Tucson has been a progressive voice for so long that most Arizonans don't remember when he wasn't.

Yes, we get publicity for obscenities like SB 1070 (the "don't be brown on our ground" debacle) and this year's SB 1062 ("my right to be a bigot trumps your right to be gay") -- which, you'll recall, Gov. Jan Brewer's staff helped write and then she had to eat it in the middle of a shitstorm. Disasters always get the media coverage.

And disasters like that happen when your state legislature is gerrymandered to produce a body far to the right of the population. But also remember: Arizonans addressed this a few years ago by voting for an independent redistricting commission. It'll take a few elections to get rid of some powerful people, and Republicans are still filing lawsuits to challenge it, but change is under way.

Mother Mags also was correct in saying that many of our most bone-headed citizens moved here from other states -- we didn't always get the cream of the crop. You sent us your flotsam, so don't blame us when it smells!

I believe it was an editor at the Texas Observer who said decades ago that any thinking person who lives in Texas automatically has a love-hate relationship with the state.

Yes, we still have Sheriff Joe Arpaio (we've tried to get Massachusetts to take him back, but so far they're reluctant to cut a deal). Yes, we even still have Sheriff Paul Babeu, who built a career on immigrant-bashing while he was involved in a long-term same-sex relationship with an undocumented Mexican. (Babeu also came from Mass., now that I think about it ... )

We still have a lot of problems that need to be addressed, and the ones that require legislative action probably aren't going to be addressed any time soon.

Let the state without sin cast the first stone.

Originally posted to wolfbane in AZ on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:06 PM PDT.

Also republished by Baja Arizona Kossacks.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Seriously (16+ / 0-)

    What is it with Massholes* moving to AZ and becoming racist sheriffs.

    *For those bothered by the term "Masshole", I'm from Vermont, I've got divine right to use the term.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:20:14 PM PDT

  •  I'm sure it is a wonderful state (12+ / 0-)

    full of wonderful people.  Unfortunately, the legislature passed and the governor signed anti-Latino legislation.  

    Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

    by TomP on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:22:35 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, well, PA is WORSE. (11+ / 0-)

      I hate it here.

      English usage is sometimes more than mere taste, judgment and education - sometimes it's sheer luck, like getting across the street. E. B. White

      by Youffraita on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:27:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You have never lived in Missouri. (6+ / 0-)

        You don't even know bad until you have had laws made by dumbfuck rural Missourians.  We brought the world Ashcroft.  Missouri would have passed papers please, but it was too complicated for our legislature.  They outlawed sharia law instead, which our Dem governor vetoes.  

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:29:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Grew up in western PA, now in NC (6+ / 0-)

        Aurgh!  Seriously, most states have a fairly large portion of liberals and progressives.  Few elections, except for gerrymandered congressional districts, are decided by mor they a few points.

        BTW, unbelievable that some of my PA friends are in unions or toil at blue collar labor but vote R.  Either sportsman gun huggers or 47%ers.  They consistently vote against their own interest.

        Corbett gotta go!

        When I moved away, I said I would not come back until Santorum was gone.  

        This land is your land and this land is my land, sure, but the world is run by those that never listen to music anyway. ~ Bob Dylan ~

        by NCTim on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:34:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hopefully PA will change in November (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        slowbutsure, Youffraita

        "Corporations exist not for themselves, but for the people." Ida Tarbell 1908.

        by Navy Vet Terp on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:36:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You think you have it bad? (18+ / 0-)
        Aye, very passable, that, very passable bit of risotto.

        Nothing like a good glass of Château de Chasselas, eh, Josiah?

        You're right there, Obadiah.

        Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Château de Chasselas, eh?

        In them days we was glad to have the price of a cup o' tea.

        A cup o' cold tea.

        Without milk or sugar.

        Or tea.

        In a cracked cup, an' all.

        Oh, we never had a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper.

        The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.

        But you know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor.

        Because we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me, "Money doesn't buy you happiness, son".

        Aye, 'e was right.

        Aye, 'e was.

        I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.

        House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.

        Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!

        Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh.

        Well, when I say 'house' it was only a hole in the ground covered by a sheet of tarpaulin, but it was a house to us.

        We were evicted from our 'ole in the ground; we 'ad to go and live in a lake.

        You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in t' shoebox in t' middle o' road.

        Cardboard box?


        You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the paper bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home our Dad would thrash us to sleep wi' his belt.

        Luxury. We used to have to get out of the lake at six o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at mill for tuppence a month, come home, and Dad would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!

        Well, of course, we had it tough. We used to 'ave to get up out of shoebox at twelve o'clock at night and lick road clean wit' tongue. We had two bits of cold gravel, worked twenty-four hours a day at mill for sixpence every four years, and when we got home our Dad would slice us in two wit' bread knife.

        Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.

        And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

        They won't!

        Monty Python's Flying Circus - "Four Yorkshiremen"

        Video here

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:37:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I grew up in SE PA (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VPofKarma, psnyder, avsp, DaNang65, CS in AZ

        Our next door neighbors, a nice LDS couple with five kids (2 of his, 1 of hers, and 2 adopted together) participated in a summer program wherein city kids spent a month or so in a rural household so they could see green grass and gardens & whatnot. Well, the first year the two kids were black. Nice kids, too, and really amazed at how people lived "in the country".

        Someone burned a cross on the front lawn one night.

        Last week, I was talking with a lovely lady at physical therapy. Her grandfather or great-grandfather, I disremember which, founded the first black school in Delaware. Another of her recent ancestors was memorable for having the first of some sort of black-owned business. She told me that black people in Wilmington knew not to go to SE PA. It was dangerous.

        And I have to say, after growing up in this area, then spending 20 years in Tucson, then coming back? I am shocked at the casual racism evident here. For instance,  FIL's neighbor is selling her house. Within five minutes of meeting me, she said something to FIL about "getting that monkey out of the White House".

    •  Bad case of Florida (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      VPofKarma, Kevskos

      Snowbirds, aka olds with money.  Nothing finer than a drunk and pissed off oldster.  I already let the wife know that I would rather be set adrift on an ice flow (if there are any) before migrating with and living among the olds.

      This land is your land and this land is my land, sure, but the world is run by those that never listen to music anyway. ~ Bob Dylan ~

      by NCTim on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:46:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah - but it's a dry hate! (7+ / 0-)

      110F and 8% humidity today! For all you prospective NN visitors next year.

      "What could possibly go wrong?" - United States Supreme Court Justices

      by Fordmandalay on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:55:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One correction: (5+ / 0-)

      Paul Johnson is a former Mayor of Phoenix.  However, the two mayors that followed him in the past 12 years are both progressive leaders on social issues AND on economic development AND on public transportation (light rail).  Along with Michael Crow, the President of Arizona State University, the development of downtown Phoenix has and continues to boom not only with daytime office worker bees but with residents who prefer to live in an urban environment and tourists and business conventions that fill up the expanded convention center, even in the hot Phoenix summers.

      Ironically, the area that some Scottsdalians (we call it "Snotsdale") wanted to peel off is now the center of an economic development Renaissance of both high tech industry and multifamily housing.  Even the residential area that I call, "the other Scottsdale", thanks to individual investors buying and fixing up abandoned, foreclosed 4-plexes, has become a bee hive of property improvements but not gentrification so the housing is still affordable, safe, sanitary, and desireable.  It is served by a lovely park and recreation center next door to a high achieving neighborhood, public elementary school.

      Today I received campaign materials for the Democratic candidate for the state legislature endorsed by both public and private unions, the state chamber of commerce, the Phoenix chamber of commerce, and myriad progressive Phoenix and Maricopa County residents.   Fortunately, my district leans quite heavily Democratic.

      Despite the independent redistricting commission, there are mostly rural districts cobbled together with inordinate, crazy "conservative" influence on politics in this state.  That, too, shall pass.  The pols elected from those districts are odd goods to be sure.  Ignorant of basic civics and economics, to start and knee-jerk piss-poor ideological (minus the "logic" part) judgment as well.

  •  Thanks for the stories; give credit where due. nt (4+ / 0-)

    Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow.

    by Inland on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:24:44 PM PDT

  •  hahaha! (9+ / 0-)

    I live in PA. Where Teh Stoopid is rampant.

    Not gonna bash AZ. Gonna bash PA: Love it or loathe it, and I do loathe it. Spent 20 years in NYC to get away from this horrid place...only came back b/c Dad. Who died. And now I'm stuck in the one place I NEVER wanted to live in EVER again.

    English usage is sometimes more than mere taste, judgment and education - sometimes it's sheer luck, like getting across the street. E. B. White

    by Youffraita on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:26:13 PM PDT

  •  Testify, wolfbane! And thanks. N/t (6+ / 0-)
  •  Greg Stanton is the mayor of Phx (6+ / 0-)

    He's a Dem, though, and comparatively modern.

    "People are more than the worst things that they do,"--Chris Hayes

    by chicating on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:41:50 PM PDT

  •  Any concerns at all about the Maricopa County (5+ / 0-)

    Sheriff's Office? Are you informed about the cases filed against the MCSO in federal district court?

    From what I've seen lately, a lot of emotion, it doesn't seem like there's a clear understanding of the problems that exist. That's true of the general population, too, even in Maricopa County.

    For example, many people don't realize that the MCSO only has jurisdiction in the localities that don't have their own police force. The city of Phoenix has its own PD and the same goes for a number of other municipalities. Other towns and unincorporated areas don't have their own police and they fall under the jurisdiction of the MCSO.

    In Pima County, Dupnik runs the Sheriff's Office but we never hear a word about the kind of practices Arpaio uses. In fact, Maricopa is the only county where civil rights violations by the Sheriff's Office were reported. There have been a few problems in Pinal with Babeu (not referring to his ex) but nothing comparable to the number of people who died while in the custody of the MCSO.

    All 15 counties have the same SB1070 which is a racist law. If 14 counties can conduct their law enforcement without killing innocent people under this law, what does that tell you?

    There's something atypical in the one county that reports problems. It's a MCSO problem more than a SB1070 problem. And in fact the problems are violations of federal law, not state law. Amendments One, Four, and Fourteen have been violated according to the suit filed by the Obama Administration.

    I assume that Democrats, Liberals, Progressives would be interested in knowing about civil liberties violations. I don't spend all of my time in Arizona or even the US. I followed the issues in Maricopa for years and even though I posted well over a hundred diaries I don't think I ever posted one on this topic before today.

    Because I've had the feeling all along that nobody wants to hear about it. And this may be the wrong time to bring it up. I feel a sense of responsibility and I want to do something. Maybe this isn't the right venue.

    •  Not that (0+ / 0-)

      you asked me, but I think an educational diary along those lines would be a good idea.

    •  my concerns are not backed up (0+ / 0-)

      with lots of knowledge unfortunately. Are you a lawyer?

      "People are more than the worst things that they do,"--Chris Hayes

      by chicating on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 05:41:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A related field. When I've had to talk about this (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        notrouble, Azazello

        issue, a common reply is "If they're looking for undocumented immigrants in Arizona they're not going to stop blonde haired Swedes."

        A foundation of law enforcement done lawfully requires probable cause or a reason to suspect criminal activity before an arrest.  Having brown skin, or a Latino appearance, or speaking Spanish in public aren't probable cause. There are over a million Latino-Americans in Maricopa County and some have roots in the area that trace back 7 generations. Appearance isn't a good indicator of an undocumented immigrant.

        So people say "What's the big deal, if they're legal they show their ID like we all do when asked and then go on their way if the law officers are satisfied."

        The case filed by the Obama Administration documents numerous examples of individuals with proper ID who were detained, taken into custody, and in some cases even killed, without any MCSO record of the reason why they were held. It took a separate legal battle that continued for 2 years, just to get the MCSO to cough up those records.

        Many of the victims obtained settlements separately in court because the MCSO typically has no evidence to explain or document its actions.

        At least $55 million has been paid out by now.

        How could it be? The deeper you dig, the uglier it gets.
        People say, "Just elect somebody better." There are 4 million people in Maricopa. Of course that has been tried. There was a major recall effort last year too but it failed. There weren't enough signatures. Full name and address are required and some people are hesitant because of all that's happened.

        At the same time, it's a busy urban area and if you aren't looking for trouble or any reason to be in contact with the MCSO you might not notice any problems and the media reporting is sometimes lacking.

        •  There are the power-mad (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mark Lippman

          that won't be "satisfied" I suppose. We don't have all of them, though(even if it's easier to think that, out-of-state)
          I signed the recall petition.

          "People are more than the worst things that they do,"--Chris Hayes

          by chicating on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 07:13:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Good idea for a diary on Maricopa County sheriff. (0+ / 0-)

          Probably beyond my scope, and I don't think a single diary could even cover Arpaio very well. The county's election of nuts as sheriff has a longer history than just him. Anyone remember the slaughter at a Buddhist monastery west of town, when Sheriff Godbehere held a national news conference and announced that three kids from Tucson were nabbed for it? Within days everybody knew that the three kids from Tucson had been here for the state fair, and only the state fair.

          It's mighty strange that one of the biggest metro areas in the country elects these particular people as sheriff.

    •  Clarence Dupnick is a democrat (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mark Lippman, Azazello

      elected Sheriff by Democratic Pima County. Pima county and the city of Tucson would not, I think, tolerate Arpaio-like antics from our sheriff's department.

      •  For outsiders, it helps if someone explains that (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Azazello, Patango, bbctooman

        each Sheriff's Office is a county-wide jurisdiction. I think some people assume Arpaio covers all of AZ or that he monitors the border. Maricopa isn't even on the border.

        Dupnik is a what a county sheriff should be.

        •  i loved it (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Azazello, DaNang65

          When Dupnik was on national TV & told the wingers to cut the conspiracy theory crap after the Giffords shooting.

          He's a completely different kinda sheriff. :)

          Reality has a well-known liberal bias -- Stephen Colbert

          by ItsaMathJoke on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 10:17:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That was before you were around BAK (0+ / 0-)

            IIRC. 'Zello, rasbobbo, Agave Pup, and I were out there counter protesting the Teas at the Sheriff's office on Benson Highway.

            I think we all felt more than a little strange protesting in favor of law enforcement

            We can't think our way into a better way of living. We have to live our way into a better way of thinking. Claude AnShin Thomas

            by DaNang65 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 07:59:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Markos won't feel safe in Arizona. (6+ / 0-)

    That's the way he feels, and so be it.  I can understand based on all that's happened that he is afraid for his family and him to step foot on Arizona soil, whether that fear is founded or not in the venue that NN will take place.  That's his choice, and his alone.  

    But he's only only one person, and thank goodness he gets to choose where he travels to and when.

    And if people want to follow his lead in "solidarity" to boycott, that's their choice, too.  Even though the boycott has been over for quite a while.

    Markos isn't the point.  What is the point is the mean people around here and other places trashing an entire state because of what Markos said, that he doesn't feel safe going there.

    Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

    by gooderservice on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 05:17:19 PM PDT

    •  I can't tell anyone not to be nervous/disgusted/ (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      emeraldmaiden, Patango, Urizen, DaNang65

      etc. But I do think the level of concern for your physical persons is exaggerated. I'm so white I'm "00000", but that doesn't mean that I'm shrugging it off like a matron on the Help when "Uppity" brown people get taken into trucks.(Even Berkeley has police-brutality incidents, though.)
      We'll miss you, and I will endeavor to make this a place you may come to proudly one day.

      "People are more than the worst things that they do,"--Chris Hayes

      by chicating on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 05:36:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  statement from former AZ house minority leader (6+ / 0-)

    John Laredo regarding NN 15 and the Arizona boycott

  •  Detriot Michigan (0+ / 0-)

    being another place that has been screwed royally by the powers that be Democratic. The rallying cry that Net Roots got a 15 day moratorium on their water being shut off somehow rings hollow as far as fighting by Dems. goes or even as far as activism goes. The so called progressive NRN being held in the states that frankly are being screwed over with no meaningful relief from the feds both Dem. or Rep. is pathetic, Taking credit for the brave people in Detroit's resistance to this screw and the ensuring demonstrations is not credible.  

  •  I was thinking about AZ today, not in the context (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    of NN15 but wondering if any kossaks lived outside the cities. I know Bhudabelly doesn't live in downtown. I wondered about others, or if anyone lives without AC. I've only spent a couple weeks, I forget where, near some large reservoir but the other side of the pass. Walked around as a survey helper for some old cowboy. Learned about jumping cactus and mesquite. It was February and real nice country.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 06:32:47 PM PDT

    •  I live in (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello, ban nock

      Yuma which is a smaller city here in AZ.  We are on the Colorado River and next to CA and Mexico.  It does not take much time to get out of the city and into farmland or desert wilderness.  I give a better description but I am getting ready for work (last night of graveyard) and need to get moving.

      We have a lot of conservatives, a republican Sheriff but the south half of the county and half of the city of Yuma is in Grijalva's district

      "In short, I was a racketeer for Capitalism" Marine Corp Brigadier General Smedley D. Butler

      by Kevskos on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 09:28:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I live in the boonies (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Azazello, ban nock, DaNang65, CS in AZ

      We call it "semi-rural". It's 5 miles to the paved road...

      I have a well that works fine, and phone, electricity -- no cable tho, but who needs a TV? I used to have a dish, but even that got to be too much of a bother. (Internet on a cellular modem now.)

      When I can keep the pump working in the cooler (on the roof), I prefer to use that (way cheaper), but I have AC for backup.

      Tucson downtown is almost 30 miles away. I'm 1000' higher too, so it's slightly cooler up here. I like it hot, but Phoenix is way hotter than here. That said, it was 100° here today. I was out working in the yard. :)

      And the stars at night are fabulous.

      Reality has a well-known liberal bias -- Stephen Colbert

      by ItsaMathJoke on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 10:42:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A/C is way expensive. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, ItsaMathJoke

      We have it but only use it in emergencies. If you can't make it with a swamp box maybe you don't belong in Arizona.

      The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

      by Azazello on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 11:13:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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