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 The recent jingoist, chest-beating against Russia is disturbing for several reasons, but mostly its disturbing because it proves that we haven't learned a Gawd Damn thing from both recent and distant history.

#1) Putin is a bad guy

Answer: Yes he is. So the Hell what?
   In case people have so quickly forgotten, we've already tread this path before just 12 years ago.
   Saddam Hussein was a bad guy to, but concentrating on Saddam for his badness is committing the same mistake the neocons made 12 years ago:

   We are taking our eyes off the ball.

  Our current foreign policy has committed troops and resources all over the middle east and in every single country we've touched chaos and bloodshed has ensued.

   Iraq: Bomb the jihadists or we'll ask Iran to do it
  Iraq military collapsing

  Libya: UN help, risk of failed state
   U.S. intervention in Libya now a cautionary tale

  These are just the two most obvious examples. We have two major oil producing nations that could collapse into chaos and rule by anti-American islamic jihadists any day now.
  In fact, it is not just possible, it is looking likely.

   Since when did that stop being important? I must have missed that memo.

  I know the temptation in politics is to put distance between you and a foreign policy disaster but focusing attention on a different crisis, but that isn't going to make the foreign policy disaster consequences go away.
   The fact is that we only have a certain amount of resources available, so we must use them wisely. It's a lesson we should have learned a decade ago.

#2) Putin is arming terrorists

Answer: I have a problem with that description because an actual terrorist would have shot down a passenger plane on purpose, not by accident.
   But even if we let that fact go, we are still in no position to talk because we are arming terrorists too.

  It's not a secret. President Bush started doing it a decade ago and Obama simply took it to the next level.
  The problem isn't that our terrorists are doing worse things than Putin's could ever dream of, it's that our terrorists are threatening to undermine our entire middle east policy. We've known for years that heavy weapons we purchased from Libyan militias and sent to Syrian rebels have wound up in the hands of jihadists, the same Libyan militias and Syrian jihadists that are now threatening to turn those nations (and Iraq) into failed states.

  Or to put it another way - we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

  So when you are in a hole the logical thing is to stop digging, not grab another shovel (i.e. Russia).

#3) We've got to respond!

 Answer: Why?
  This situation doesn't require a response. The separatists in the Dombass are blowing up bridges as they prepare for a last stand.
   The Ukraine army is about to put an end to this rebellion no matter if we do something or not do something. To put it another way:

 This problem is about to go away

  Will it be bloody? Probably. Our intervening can only make it more bloody.

#4) What about Putin?

  Answer: What about him?
  It's not like we are going to seek regime change in the only other great nuclear power. Or have we learned nothing from the Cold War?
  And do we really want another Cold War? That would be the sign of a foreign policy failure.

Not learning from history

   Congress is stalemated about what to do concerning Iraq, while President Obama hasn't laid out a clear plan.

 Both stressed they saw no military solution to patching up Iraq's political and ethnic divisions or to peeling off moderate Sunnis from the insurgency that calls itself the Islamic State.
 Of course for both the Democrats and Republicans, the only question is "how much military response". That's despite the fact that Iraq has been blown up and shot up for over a decade and things are now worse than ever.
 According to the British charity Oxfam, around "28 percent of Iraqi children are malnourished, " and "70 percent lack clean drinking water."
 We spent $2 Trillion to blow up Iraq. Can you imagine what would have happened if we had instead fed and clothed everyone at probably a tenth of the price?

  One of the problems of our Iraq foreign policy is the Myth of The Surge.
   The Surge Myth goes like this:

  Against political pressure from the Democratic Surrender-Monkeys, Heroic President Bush temporarily added 20,000 troops, and extend the duration of the troops in Iraq temporarily.
  In response, the Iraqi terrorists were defeated, the war was won, and freedom triumphed over Democrats.

  Or something like that.
 Why after four years of fighting a temporary 20% increase in troops was supposed to accomplish this was never explained, and never will be.
  Instead we were left with the Myth of the Bigger Hammer is the solution to everything.

  The reality is that violence continued to escalate for months until three things happened:
  1) Muqtada_al-Sadr ordered his shia militias to stand down in late August when fighting between the various shia factions started getting out of control.
  2) The ethnic cleansing of Baghdad was largely over by mid-2007.

  However, the biggest change to happen is the one thing that almost never gets talked about - 3) we put the Sunni rebels on our payroll.
  Or to put it another way:
  We paid them not to shoot at us.

 The Awakening groups emerged in 2005 when Sunni tribesmen, who had previously fought the US military and Iraqi government forces, allied with US forces, accepting arms, money and training.
   There are about 100,000 Awakening fighters in Iraq and analysts say they are one of the main reasons for the recent marked reduction in violence in the country.
The insurgents became allies.

 Allow me to tell you exactly how this goes:

1) We easily defeat Saddam's armies by bribing his generals

2) We de-Baathify the country and thus cause tens of thousands of families to lose their sole source of income. They start shooting at us.

3) We put the Sunni insurgents on our payroll (see above) and they stop shooting at us.

4) In 2009, the Iraqi government disbanded the Sunni Awakening, but continued to offer them jobs until 2013.

5) The Sunni Awakening has decided to cut deals with ISIS rather than fight them in 2014.

  When you look at it from a monetary perspective this looks very logical. Give people money and jobs so that they can live like human beings and they don't shoot at you.

 But when you look at it from the Myth of the Bigger Hammer perspective, the kind that the American media and Washington loves, it looks like a bunch of crazy people in Iraq that only understand violence.

  Which brings me back to the same question: what do you think would have happened if we hadn't spent $2 Trillion blowing up Iraq, and instead spent $200 Billion feeding Iraq?
  It doesn't leave any room for politicians to beat their chests and look tough in front of the camera.

  Lastly I want to point out that today is the 100th Anniversary of the day the Austrian Minister presented the Serbian Government with a list of demands, demands that no sovereign nation could agree to.
   Within a week this failure of diplomacy and the unwillingness to seek a diplomatic solution began the start of World War I. A war that would wipe both nations off the face of the Earth and kill millions of these two nation's citizens.

  It's ironic that this anniversary is happening while Washington and Moscow are squaring off.

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Comment Preferences

  •  #0. It's Almost All Predicated On Carbon Energy. (18+ / 0-)

    None of this needs to happen.

    We're gonna kill civilization fighting over virtual fools' gold.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 01:51:59 PM PDT

    •  our system is built to depend on it (4+ / 0-)

      The institutional inertia that keeps us shackled to fossil fuel energy is beyond the ability of the mind to quantify. Billions and billions of dollars and a century and a half of infrastructure are involved. The automobile and aviation industries will have to be completely rebuilt. The internal combustion engine is over a century old, but only in the last twenty years or so have we half-heartedly tried to figure out how to replace it with something that isn't fossil-fuel-based.

      It's like saying you're going to try to cure a patient with advanced arteriosclerosis by replacing his entire circulatory system. There's no way he'll agree to that unless he's on the verge of death.

      Absent an oil shock that brings the world to its knees and forces oil prices very high, I see nothing that will shake us out of it until the climate crisis has spiraled completely out of control.

      The only bright spot in all this is that, absent subsidies, alternative energy has reached (or nearly reached) cost parity with fossil fuels. Once we cross that tipping point, and solar/wind become cheaper than the fossil-fuel equivalent, we'll see an exponential growth of alternative energy systems. That's our only chance.

      "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

      by limpidglass on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:21:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Duck. (11+ / 0-)

    Incoming.
    You're spot on in your analysis; that was pretty obvious from the git go back in 2003 or so, but Putin is such a badass that he's easy to hate and, as you've noted, a distraction is handy right now.
    Kaiser Bill was the same way Apparently, even his English cousins thought he was a putz, and that made him likewise, the villain du jour.

    "The 'Middle' is a crowded place - that is where the effective power is - the extreme right and left might annoy governments, but the middle terrifies them." Johnny Linehan

    by northsylvania on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 01:53:14 PM PDT

    •  China pleased w/ Putin Distraction.. (0+ / 0-)

      ....while she continues to assert territorial claims on land belonging to US allies.

      US foreign policy should focus on containing China in Southeast Asia.

      Let Germany worry about Putin.

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

      by PatriciaVa on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 01:59:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  China (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, thanatokephaloides
        China pleased w/ Putin Distraction..while she continues to assert territorial claims on land belonging to US allies.
        And I'm supposed to care about that?

        My invisible imaginary friend is the "true" creator

        by Mr Robert on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:03:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  China lost Burma (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thanatokephaloides, Sky Net

        to 'the West' back in 2011/12, leaving it with North Korea as its last good toy.  And now it's in a bunch of oh so glorious nonproductive squabbles about various uninhabitable shoals, reefs, rocks, and small islands in the South and East China seas.  Surely an empire on the march....

        China has a far more serious and building, potentially catastrophic, problem in its hinterland, with the Uighurs.  If I were anyone in Beijing I'd be urging a quiet pullback from Sinkiang and Tibet.

        •  In more than 4,000 years of history (5+ / 0-)

          China has never tried to conquer more than its immediate neighbors.
            And usually it failed at that task.

           In fact, almost all of China's military history involves Chinese killing other Chinese. They were very, very good at it.

          "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

          by gjohnsit on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:53:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Re - Uighurs & Tibetans (0+ / 0-)

            China, growing ever stronger militarily, will never budge on the matter of Xinjiang or Tibet. Why would they need to do a "quiet pullback" from these regions? The Chinese are strong while the Uighurs & Tibetans are weak & powerless. China may have to deal with a terrorism problem as a result of their policies; after all, terrorism is the last recourse of the defeated & the desperate. And as we know from Russia's experience in Chechnya, while it is possible to defeat an insurgency militarily, when the insurgents resort to terrorism it is exceedingly difficult to stamp out.

            But in the end, both peoples are destined to suffer the fate of the Native Americans or the Palestinians or the Circassians - dispossession, displacement, deportation, oppression, the erasure of their cultures & identities, & eventually the extinction of their languages. Both peoples, like the Hawaiians in the U.S. or the Kalaks in the French-controlled island of New Caledonia, are or will soon become minorities in their own lands. Like Hawaii, they are small countries that have been swallowed by a big country, indigenous cultures in the process of being snuffed out by a dominant culture. Any attempted uprising or subversion against the Chinese state will be met with swift & severe repression, just as it was during the time of "Manifest Destiny" in the U.S.

        •  China is not interested in the uninhabitable (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          northsylvania

          shoals, reefs, rocks, and small islands in the South and East China seas for anything on those bits of land but rather so that it can expand its "exclusive economic zone" to include the thousands of square miles of ocean surrounding those bits of land -- and more particularly, the fish in those seas, the seabed and its suspected large reserves of hydrocarbons under those seas, and the strategic shipping lanes that pass through those seas.

          We must drive the special interests out of politics.… There can be no effective control of corporations while their political activity remains. To put an end to it will neither be a short not an easy task, but it can be done. -- Teddy Roosevelt

          by NoMoJoe on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:18:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Duck fat fries are delicious! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gjohnsit, thanatokephaloides

      gjohnsit made some great points but I don't see us invading Russia.

      The same can be said about North Korea.  

    •  Saddam was easy to hate too (10+ / 0-)

      As I said, and as you noticed, it's besides the point.

       Losing Iraq and Libya to anti-American islamic fundamentalists could do a lot more harm than Putin could ever do to America short of nuclear holocaust.

       We need out values looked at.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:15:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  not in my lifetime seen foreign policy in shambles (20+ / 0-)

    in many, many places in the world

    and we spent billions spying on everyone rather than working with them and helping them

    and we have blown up several places, like Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam

    and we are less secure than we were in 2001 after spending trillions

    and we continue to "shoot from the hip" in Ukraine

    and on the wrong side in Israel/Palestine act of war

    just what is "American interests"?

  •  Your point #3 is not completely right. (0+ / 0-)

    The problem is that Russian artillery is shooting at the Ukrainian army from Russian territory. Ukrainians are sustaining some losses (~100 dead and 300+ wounded). They may be also shooting down Ukrainian planes. If we could somehow stop Russia from doing that, your analysis will be correct and this will be over in a few months.

  •  Wasn't this diary supposed to be about Putin and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sky Net, killjoy

    a new foreign policy?

    It sort of turned into a stream-of-consciousness stroll down memory lane.

    It's very disturbing that the President and Secretary of State are upset about the airliner shoot down because something something Syria ISIS.

    Art is the handmaid of human good.

    by joe from Lowell on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:15:39 PM PDT

  •  One small point of disagreement (17+ / 0-)

    In the grand scheme of things Putin isn't anywhere near as bad as he's being made out to be - you know, satan, the beast, etc.

    He's a world leader with interests to protect, and that's how he behaves. He's not blowing people up all over the world from the air, or funneling arms and technology into a brutal, racist meat grinder. He didn't arm and support ISIS as have our "friends" in the region.

    I know perspective is not great when people are wearing their war goggles... But so it goes.

    If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers. - Thomas Pynchon

    by chuckvw on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:16:52 PM PDT

  •  When we keep on building bigger and better hammers (8+ / 0-)

    how can you expect the lunatics running things not to lust after their use?

    We could truly be the best country in the world if we put our resources into doing good things, not fucking things up.

    I ♥ rock crushers.

    by fly on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:21:50 PM PDT

  •  we do need a better foreign policy (7+ / 0-)

    bombing shit doesn't work well.

    We are used to calling Russians aka Soviets bad guys.  Remember that for most of the current ruling class,  the Cold War isn't over yet.  Arming the opposite side of a conflict from Russia is SOP.  Since Saint Ronnie claimed victory over Communism, that's the last war we won.

    If the industrialized nations got together to just feed and educate everyone, the world would be better, population growth rates would decline, world wide purchasing power would stimulate world economy, civil rights would expand, we might slow climate change, reduce environmental toxins, see less violence as a major motivator for terrorism, poverty and lack of opportunity,  would fade away,   and the world would be a nice place.  Rich folks aren't about to let that happen, it would be bad for profits.

  •  The objection to the surge (8+ / 0-)

    was that Democrats didn't believe what they were being told anymore, and it turns out they were probably right (even though things got better for other reasons).  

    I remind conservative friends that after being burned so badly so many times (no WMD, lack of "Mission Accomplished", torture, etc.), it would have been dereliction of duty had Congress not been very skeptical.  In a business presentation, if someone presenting a plan after having being wrong so many times before, what executive manager would have accepted such a plan without serious reservations (if at all)?

    In fact, in a business setting, the persons presenting the surge would probably have already been fired.

    West. No further west. All sea. --Robert Grenier

    by Nicolas Fouquet on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:24:53 PM PDT

  •  You're not describing the current policy. (0+ / 0-)
    The recent jingoist, chest-beating against Russia is disturbing for several reasons
    is the start for a bunch of rhetorical questions about a policy that doesn't exist.

    The US is giving a measured response to Russia's acts in Ukraine and getting results without putting a single boot on the ground.

    Why don't you actually talk about the sanctions that are in place and being considered, rather than knock down straw men?

    Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

    by Inland on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:29:37 PM PDT

    •  Because I wasn't ONLY talking about Putin (9+ / 0-)

      The jingoist chest-beating is all over the media and DKos.

      If you go back and see #1, the Ukraine thing is a distraction from the MUCH bigger problems that we've caused in the middle east (over two presidencies).

        There is no strawman here. Our foreign policy in the middle east is a disaster. An epic disaster. And if things don't change for the better soon, it will get considerably worse.
        Obama's guilt is that he didn't change the policy from Bush's disaster.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 02:50:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Surprising to me. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, cany

        Does nobody remember what it was like to live when the nuclear clock was at one minute to midnight?  When all the warheads were pre-targetted and the policy was launch on warning?

        The U.S. cannot afford a shooting war with Russia. Period.

        •  I remember it well. Complete with the little (0+ / 0-)

          shorts we watched in school shortly before pulling the window curtains and hiding under our desks. A commie under every rock.

          I remember.

          The only hawk I like is the kind that has feathers. My birding blogs: http://thisskysings.wordpress.com/ and canyonbirds.net

          by cany on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:34:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You seem to think "media" and "DK" (0+ / 0-)

        are the same as policy.  They aren't.  I would give a jot of credit to an assertion that Obama's policies are too much like Bush's if you actually mentioned his actual policies.

        Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

        by Inland on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:41:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  For starters (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dfarrah
          I would give a jot of credit to an assertion that Obama's policies are too much like Bush's if you actually mentioned his actual policies.
          Arming terrorists, as I mentioned.

          "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

          by gjohnsit on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:44:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Something besides bloviating would be nice. n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  End U.S. Imperialism. End all Imperialism, (7+ / 0-)

    colonialism, hegemony and subjugation by all governments.  Bring to justice those that have broken the laws and agreements made after WWI and WWII.  Create a Declaration of Peace and have all countries sign the damn thing at the U. N.  

    "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

    by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:04:17 PM PDT

  •  new foreign policy (0+ / 0-)

    I hope your suggestion for a new foreign policy isn't to hand hundreds of billions of dollars to dictators and hope they spend it on food and clothing.  That was the only suggestion I read in this diary.

    Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

    by Sky Net on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:17:28 PM PDT

    •  Re: (0+ / 0-)
      That was the only suggestion I read in this diary.
      Then you should be able to point out where I said that.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:49:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here (0+ / 0-)
        Which brings me back to the same question: what do you think would have happened if we hadn't spent $2 Trillion blowing up Iraq, and instead spent $200 Billion feeding Iraq?  It doesn't leave any room for politicians to beat their chests and look tough in front of the camera.

        Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

        by Sky Net on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 04:02:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  You've certainly lost sight of the forest (0+ / 0-)

    for all the bushes, shrubs, vines, and trees in the way.

    What I see is a giant 'U' of containment which runs roughly from Helsinki to Athens, Tel Aviv to Muscat, Delhi to Hanoi, Manila to Seoul.  Inside the 'U' there are three principals- the regimes in Moscow, Teheran, and Beijing- who sustain the conflicts along the edges of the great 'U' for as long as possible and make sure that they're vicious and bloody.

    The necessity of each conflict is local, yet everywhere the same things: borders are in the wrong places, governments are run by and for the wrong ethnic groups, land is owned by the wrong groups of people, there are bloody old ethnic group scores to revive and settle.  All the Agrarian and Industrial Age messes are brought to the surface and reactionaries choose to fight about them.  Before Modern life arrives and they erode away- democratic government settles social rights and land claims, federation with other countries means borders fade, intermarriage means ethnicity dilutes, etc.   Somewhere down the line.

    The great 'U' of containment in Eurasia is slowly shrinking with time.  A country here, a country there decides the old crap isn't worth it after all and the establishments which defend it have to be toppled or thrown out.  

    Right now the extent of dispute is unusual, but it's a result of the rise in wealth throughout Eastern Europe and Asia in the past twenty years.  There are more wealthy regional people and governments around to put their money into fighting disputes in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Mali, the South China Sea.  And in much of the world, a lot of unemployed and otherwise unemployable people willing to do the fighting.

  •  In the square off between Russian and USA (4+ / 0-)

    propaganda war over the shooting down MH17, Russia appears to be winning. Russia shows satellite imagery to back up their claims of a Ukrainian plane in the area. The USA on the other hand shows an animation of an imaginary missile launcher in rebel held territory firing at an imaginary plane.

    •  Really? lol [about the US cartoon] (0+ / 0-)

      link to the Russian info?

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:48:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Got to disagree with this point. (0+ / 0-)

      The shooting down of MH17 is an absolute PR disaster for Russia. Spin it any way one wants, but what happened has happened - 298 innocent people have lost their lives because Russia recklessly supplied advanced surface-to-air missiles to these ragtag rebel groups over whom it has only limited control.

      For what it's worth, I've never supported or accepted the logic behind the tacit post-1991 U.S. policy of rolling back Russian power & influence, whenever & wherever possible. I've specifically opposed the U.S. policy of pushing confrontation with Russia by fomenting unrest in former Soviet republics or effecting regime-change in Ukraine. A better tack would have been to come to some sort of understanding with Russia that would respect its legitimate security concerns while preserving the smaller countries' right to self-determination & economic independence. But alas, that isn't going to be.

      But with regard to what happened last week, Russia will pay a significant price in terms of world opinion - & that's the least of it. Russia may or may not be brought to heel over this in the same manner as Libya over Pan-Am 103 (the Lockerbie incident). It may shelter the perpetrators indefinitely. And this will all take time. But once the investigations are finished & the case against it has been proven (& it will be), Russia will be under tremendous pressure to hand over anyone identified as having had a hand in this, whether citizens of Russia or fighters of the "Donetsk People's Republic". If it refuses it will be hit with severe economic sanctions, up to & including a freeze on its foreign assets, exclusion from the world financial system (SWIFT) & eventually even an embargo on its oil & gas exports. It might even be wise for Putin himself to reconsider his international travel plans. Most assuredly, Russia & the fighters of the "Donetsk People's Republic" will be pursued to the far corners of the globe, by international tribunals & courts of law in the affected countries. It will be hit with hundreds of wrongful-death judgments & be ordered to pay out hundreds of billions of dollars. And when it refuses, Russia will face the prospect of having its assets seized around the globe, much has Argentina now faces over its defaulted debt in 2001 (except that this will be much bigger).

      However this all plays out, I seriously doubt there will be a quick return to "business as usual" with Russia. How any of this could be considered a propaganda "win" for Russia is simply beyond me.

  •  Great diary, T&R. 'Praying' FSM sends you a calm (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit, 3goldens

    comment thread.

    Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

    by davidincleveland on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:51:22 PM PDT

  •  Fascinating (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    killjoy

    A couple weeks ago you were hyperventilating about our non-response to supposed Kiev war crimes. As you put it so eloquently:

    The one thing consistent about the pro-Kiev crowd is their lack of empathy.
    I noted the questionable nature of your concern at the time. And today, not at all shockingly, the conflict is none of our bidness according to you:
    The Ukraine army is about to put an end to this rebellion no matter if we do something or not do something. To put it another way:

     This problem is about to go away

      Will it be bloody? Probably. Our intervening can only make it more bloody.

    IOW now that the narrative has turned decisively against the militias it's time to throw the Donbas under the bus.

    The so-called pro-Kiev side here has been consistent in calling for diplomatic pressure to end the fighting. I don't see how anyone with a humanitarian interest can be against this.

    Your lack of empathy is noted.

    •  Very fascinating (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wolf10

      Do you know how many times Republicans accused me of the same thing about victims of Saddam?
         I was a cold-heated bastard and only interested in using "another cudgel against my perceived enemies", as you so well put it.

       You are right. I don't care about anything at all. Everything I wrote above was for...well, something other than what it appears to be.
         You'll have to fill in the blanks, because you never answered my question last time of "Who are my enemies? Why do you think I care about civilian casualities?"

       Please clear that up for me. And while you are at it, please explain this one to me.

      The so-called pro-Kiev side here has been consistent in calling for diplomatic pressure to end the fighting.
      I have a problem figuring that one out when the pro-Kiev crowd flat-out refused to denounce the Kiev military bombarding Dombas cities. Not to mention denouncing the separatists who have NOT launched a military offensive.
        But then I must be only scoring political points, and not using common sense.

       But I am curious why you and your buddies suddenly don't care about the governments of Iraq and Libya falling, despite the far higher body count than in Ukraine? Nor that we are arming the terrorists that are doing that.
         Obviously I don't care about them either, nor is it possible for me to care. But that doesn't mean you can't care about them.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 06:51:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Woosh (0+ / 0-)
        Do you know how many times Republicans accused me of the same thing about victims of Saddam?
        You realize I was paraphrasing you, right? No one forced you to turn the discussion into the empathy olympics but you went there nonetheless.
        You'll have to fill in the blanks, because you never answered my question last time of "Who are my enemies? Why do you think I care about civilian casualities?"
        That's your business. I don't care enough to speculate.
        I have a problem figuring that one out when the pro-Kiev crowd flat-out refused to denounce the Kiev military bombarding Dombas cities.
        Both sides have been using artillery. Anyone who's deliberately or negligently inflicted civilian casualties since the start of this whole mess needs to face justice. The fighting must stop so this can happen.
        Not to mention denouncing the separatists who have NOT launched a military offensive.
        You know that's horseshit. First, the capture of government facilities by armed men was a military offensive. Second, there's a major separatist offensive underway in the border regions right now. Third, dozens of government troops were killed or injured during Kiev's 10-day ceasefire.
  •  don't agree w/every point but rec anyway. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gjohnsit

    decent wages don't eliminate jobs. Republicans eliminate jobs; and workers, and prospects, and then excuse it all and call for more austerity. there is no end to their ignorant, arrogant avarice. only political dinosaurs support their treachery.

    by renzo capetti on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 11:59:17 PM PDT

  •  Putin would love to see such a diary (0+ / 0-)

    The world's indecisiveness in confronting him has led to the events of the past months.

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