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"Splitting" is a defense mechanism by which unwanted parts of our personality are rejected.  The problem is that this usually works rather badly and turns into baseless attacks on others. This is where self-hatred turns into the hatred of others.

Because we accuse other people of having our unwanted traits, this is the source of hypocrisy, pot-kettle-black accusations, "mind reading," scapegoating, and "straw man" arguments. We see this in on-line squabbles, where "straw man" arguments are used to accuse others of things they did not actually say or do. And if someone is a general hot mess, they'll add a stream of ad hominem attacks painting the other person as evil and the accuser as the victim.

But everyone does this to some degree, and anyone that has spent much time on line knows what splitting is like.  If you are having an argument with someone and you take a break but in your mind you are thinking about what you will say and what they will say, then that is an imaginary conflict with an imaginary person.  Do you notice how mean people are in your imagination?  They are real bastards!  But it's easy to forget that those voices are you, and that those are the voices of self criticism.  We take our thoughts (usually the negative ones) and attribute them to other people, and this is projection.  

This also happens off-line, in real life, where we can be devoured by stress imagining family or workplace confrontations that never happen. But we imagine that they will attack our secret weakest points. A skillful manipulator might yell at someone once and then keep them in suspense by leading their victim to imagine that it will happen again.

And it's good to have some self awareness and humility, but this can easily slip over the line to the point where we lash out at a real person over their imagined insults.  This happens when we blame others for our negative thoughts, and it is possible to be unaware of our own self sabotaging emotions and thoughts.  The splitting is still there, but there is also denial of these emotional conflicts, so they remain unconscious.

Splitting can be a conscious operation, where a person hold two contradictory opinions.  We can see this in right wing blogs that say Obama is a iron fisted dictator and a wimp.  Or how often a military sniper says he sleeps like a baby because of his deep love of Jesus.  Or how dangerous and oppressive the government is, unless it's a black teenager that gets shot.  It's the familiar damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't strategy.

In the case of the narcissist, feeling of superiority can coexist consciously with shyness and insecurity.  Although this is hard to imagine, we have seen the video diary of the Santa Barbara campus shooter who simultaneously admitted to being terrified of girls, but considered himself a "true alpha male."   Similarly, the borderline personality disorder is dominated by their sense of insecurity but can also have grandiose and omnipotent thoughts.   And  both the narcissist and the borderline accuse other people of thinking badly of them, that is, they project their self criticism onto others.

Consider this fictional scene from the book/movie "Fight Club," where Ed Norton's character (the nameless "Narrator") confronts Helena Bonham Carter  ("Marla"). They are obvious soul mates, and seeing his mirror image in her ("Her lie reflected my lie") is probably why Ed Norton's character has a violent hatred for her ("If I had a tumor, I'd name it Marla")   Ed Norton's character is splitting (oh boy does he split in this story) and projecting  and Marla is savvy enough to see it from across the crowded room, so she's ready when he comes over for a big confrontation.

Marla: I saw you practicing this.
Narrator: Practicing what?
Marla: Telling me off. Is it going as well as you hoped...? [reads his nametag] "Rupert"?
Narrator: I'll expose you.
Marla: Go ahead. I'll expose you.
Marla knows  Ed Norton's character needs to psych himself up with an imaginary confrontation, and, when he approaches her, she throws him of balance by ruining his script.  She has already "exposed" him to himself by showing him his own false emotions,  phony outrage, and self righteousness.  (Spoiler - if you haven't seen the movie, she likes him).

These fantasy conflicts seem real to varying degrees. Certainly they seem real enough to trigger real stress that can injure our physical health.  For people that have a hard time separating fact from fantasy (most of us) this can lead effortless lying about other people , lies that can be quite breathless and convincing.

If someone has serious problems, they may actually attack the others based on these fantasy images and conflict.  Splitting blurs the boundary between "self" and "other," and we see the walls between reality and hostile fantasy dissolve.  

But which of their own traits is being rejected in splitting?   We absorb lots of things as  children, some good and some bad. Then as adults we say things like "Oh my God, I sound just like my mother!" This is not necessarily a bad thing - it's normal. As children, character traits are absorbed from the adults around us and  "introjected,"  becoming practically hardwired into our brains.  

Remember the scene from Star Wars "The Empire Strikes Back" where Yoda sends Luke into the evil cave on Dagobah for a vision quest? Luke "sees" Darth Vader and cuts off his head, but inside the helmet is Luke's own face? Right, Luke has to confront his own evil father, but he also has to confront himself. Granted it's all a little hokey and heavy handed, but it gets right to the point.

Of course if mom (or dad, or stepdad etc) is a bit of a monster, their kids will have that criticism and verbal abuse stuck in their heads when they are adults.  Like the voice of Ralph Fienne's sadistic grandmother in "Red Dragon."  If (off-screen) child abuse and threats of castration make you cringe, you can skip it, but you get the point, because Fiennes becomes a serial killer.  
 

Simply fighting as hard as you can is no promise of redemption

He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
And you can read more about the "He who fights monsters"  cliche on the fabulous TVtropes database which describes about twenty variations on this theme:
Something has happened to our Fallen Hero (link): his village was destroyed, his friends killed, his puppy roasted on an open spit, his bike stolen, whatever. All that matters is that It's Personal (link), and he feels that the law just isn't... any use to him in settling the matter. He may justify his actions by claiming that it's Justice he's after, not vengeance, but anyone with half a brain can easily see that he's out for revenge... unfortunately, we can also see that the more he hunts the cause of his woes, the more he takes on the villain's personality and mannerisms — something that our "hero" is too blinded by his single-minded goal to realize...... what he's doing twists him into a monster just as bad as, or even worse than, the one he's hunting .... The "fighting monsters" line represents what is a recognizable Moral Event Horizon (link) for heroes, and both antiheroes and Well Intentioned Extremists (link) live just near the boundary....As expected, this twisted situation is very popular in the Revenge Tragedy (link) genre,especially because of its inherent Dramatic Irony (link) note . This trope can also be used to demonstrate how "eye-for-an-eye" justice, while sounding like sweet Karmic Equivalent Exchange Justice (link) at first, can easily spiral out into utter chaos if the hero lets his passions, wrath, and Pride (link) forego rationality.
In fiction there is usually an actual injury that motivates revenge, but even justifiable revenge is still morally ambiguous.  In real life, the "injury" (ironic quotes there) is generally only damaged pride.  Because pride is usually a mask that hides a self-critical personality, the self-critical person is also prone to revenge.  

Early criticism and unfair treatment becomes self criticism and self sabotage in the adult. And these traits may be reinforced by their parents and family even when the child is all grown up. But nobody wants to think of themselves as defined by their "mommy issues" or "daddy issues" especially since it makes them seem like less than competent adult. They use all sorts of denial to avoid that knowledge, and they may end up in therapy to work through these issues. In therapy, they can do the splitting and projection and other processes until they are defused and can be handled safely.

A person who grows up absorbing these aggressive, angry, critical traits is likely to show some version of these traits as an adult.  If they gain any power at all, they are likely turn their criticism and sabotage outwards towards others. However, it may be intolerable to see themselves as the aggressor, sadist, rageaholic, or stalker.  So they have to reject these internal traits by splitting and attributing these traits to other people, creating a "persecutory object," a straw man in the image of a sadistic person.  Specifically, they are putting other people in the role of the  persecuting parent. By splitting, a person is able to justify their rage and the urge to punish others.  And if they were raised to feel guilty, they can project that guilt onto other people, which is further "proof" against that person.

This might be why so many people end up married to someone that is a near clone of their abusive parent.  When they try to have a relationship with someone from a healthier family, they are literally speaking different languages. In the case of a mixture of partners from  healthy and unhealthy backgrounds, the person doing the splitting is using their partner as a proxy in a fight with some parent figure such as their alcoholic verbally abusive (possibly deceased) step-dad. Someone with a different background may find this behavior and the associated accusations utterly baffling, and their partner's response may include rage and shame.  

Projective identification will be a major part of the campaign to create this external bad guy.  Typically this means the victim will behave in a way to provoke criticism.  A classic example is to tell someone over and over "You're angry ... you're angry ... you're angry.." until finally the other person  becomes angry. It's the accuser who has anger, but they need to manipulate the other person into being angry so the accuser can shift the blame to the other person and make them the bad guy.  
As I said in a previous diary  Psychology Of Hatred Part II: Projection & Projective Identification

(wikipedia) The projector (the phony "victim")strives to find in the other, or to induce the other to become, the very embodiment of projection..... their behavior towards the object of projection invokes in that person precisely the thoughts, feelings or behaviors projected.
Now it is clearer - instead of just making foolish ad hominem attacks, the aggressor tries to bait a victim into giving them the exact proof they need so desperately to validate their own anger.  Then they can rally their friends or family for an attack.  Bonus points are awarded for gaining sympathy and being the center of attention. The manipulator poses as a hapless victim, but orchestrates the whole performance for an audience. I guess it could be used for good, but it seems like it's always a form of aggression, specifically covert aggression.
Looking at the example of a Facebook troll, why does someone spend most of their life simply being stupid and annoying on line? They get criticism, and being called "stupid" by some frustrated stranger is clearly their goal.  What other explanation is there except an effort to recreate their relationship with a bad parent?  Maybe, the abusive parent used projective identification and called the child "stupid" until the child lived up to the criticism and did badly in school, just so the parent to put the child in the role of the "bad kid" or the family scapegoat.  The child may be made to feel guilt of they resist:
.....However, such resistance can produce a peculiar form of guilt...guilt for not being or not becoming the embodiment of the complement demanded by the other;.....(wikipedia).
Now grown up, the grown child also uses projective identification, provoking others to call them "stupid" on-line by spouting offensive crap like Sandy Hook Truther theories. (I'm just picking this as a specific example)  By doing this, the grown child can reassure themselves that they are still innocent and that the threat to their happiness is from the outside, from other people, bad people.  They tell themselves it's not part of the grown child, noooo, it has been spit off and projected onto this stranger on-line. Now they can deny that they are somehow like their abusive parent or that their parent's criticism is a foundation of their own personality.  
"......while conversely for the projector, when an outer figure resists this powerful projective pressure, the individual bursts out in rage....." (wikipedia)
Got that?  If someone resists their  demand to be the bad guy, the projector (phony victim) responds with rage.
You have to wonder how often that drives people's annual reviews at work.

In real life there are so many layers of deception and denial it may be nearly impossible to figure  out who the real culprit is.  But the internet and weirdos like Sandy Hook Truthers provide good examples because it's drama played out between people without a tangled backstory of he said/she said accusations.  On-line we can see people treating each other like vending machines. Press this button ( a real button) to get yelled at, press this button to get liked on Facebook, press this button to make someone feel shame.  

Probably the best way to get the ball rolling in this process of accuse-and-counterattack  is adopt an "analyze and accuse" strategy towards others.  As Cardinal Richelieu (Tim Curry in a red robe in "The Three Musketeers") said

If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.
Richelieu not only made absurd accusations, such as witchcraft, against his political rivals, he then had them tortured and killed in grotesquely sadistic ways.   He was spitting the processes of sadistic destructiveness and pious righteousness. And  he probably slept like a baby - a narcissistic, sociopathic baby.

Like Richelieu, a person using splitting and projection (let's call them "A.") can latch onto just about anything they hear and be belligerent, self righteous, and absurdly obtuse in response. Typically this includes A.  using fake emotion and fake morality to gin up phony outrage regarding some topic where A. may not even give a shit. A. accuses another person (let's call them "B") to provoke them. When B. takes the bait and responds in a in a self righteous manner, "A" takes the accusations up to a new level of phony victimhood and ad hominem accusations about B.  

The strategy is to provoke someone so that projective identification can be used to cast them as the bad guy.  When it looks like the B. is "punching down" on poor pitiful A., A. will recruit their friends for assistance.  This can go over the line into simple bullying where the mask is dropped and their "in group" simply torments B. before attacking B.

Having projected guilt and aggression onto another person, it is now possible to punish this supposedly "guilty" person who represents the unloving parent (the "persecutory object").  Notice that the roles can now reversed - A. uses splitting and projection to deny their aggression and sadism while feeling they are seeking revenge, they are the side of righteousness. It seems like all cultures love revenge stories, because  revenge gives victims moral purity and license to devise the most  sadistic punishment possible. This is conscious splitting of the concepts of revenge and virtue, so they can coexist in the conscious mind. However, one of the Seven Deadly Sins is "Wrath" and that seems to capture the moral  hypocrisy of revenge.  

Kill your whole high school? Hey, why not.  Notice Cary hears the voice of her mother saying "They're all going to laugh at you!" and kills her, too.

Now the "victim" can embrace the abusive sadistic traits of their parent while blaming it all on the other guy.  

Splitting is common for sociopaths and various personality disorders.  And we see this all the time in criminals who believe they are the real victims. Is it any wonder that they usually that had horrendous childhoods?  They were real victims before they became predators.  And their accusations against others are often pure projection - the thief accuses others of stealing, the liar accuses others of lying, the arsonist accuses someone else of setting fires. Even intelligent people aren't usually crafty enough to avoid this obvious gambler's "tell."

This is primitive and sometimes violent stuff. Splitting is incoherent - there is no effort to keep track of the lies and accusations.  This is like The Gish Gallop.  It can seem very convincing to bystanders, and for the victim it can feel like their brain is melting.

These sorts of accusations seem to have a universal appeal and are effective pretexts for violence.  Witch trials, the Inquisition, the Holocaust - all used absurd accusations.    Consider cases where a teenage girl is raped and then attacked by her peers using "slut shaming."  Although this pack behavior seems feral, isn't it also Machiavellian to take down a weakened peer and potential competitor?  Throughout history, some of the cruelest atrocities have been neighbor against neighbor, where ridiculous accusations are used to seize land, property, or power.  Often the strongest hatred is directed at people who are similar to the projector.

In the case of the Nazis, their accusations against the Jews were projections. Supposedly the Jews were the real racists  that were going to enslave the world!  And according to the Nazis they were merely acting in self-defense, just doing it to the Jews before the Jews could do it to the Nazis.  At the level of political propaganda, projection can be used to indoctrinate the population with the game plan for future atrocities. Over and over the population is warned about an elaborate conspiracy in great detail.  For years they are told in horrifying and explicit detail until one day they are told "Do it to them before they do it to you," and they spring into action because they all know what "it" is.  I do not think there is anything accidental about this, but I believe that it taps into the individuals knowledge of projection and self deception so that a certain percentage of the population knows "This conspiracy theory is projection, it is not a warning, it is the plan I will follow."  And people who instinctively understand this was are exactly the kind of people Hitler planned to use (he estimated them to be 15% of the population).

My personal opinion is that a person interested in assessing their own mental health or protecting their mental health should try to estimate how much of their time is spent in a state of self righteous anger.  If they are spending very much time being self righteous it means they are in some sort of bad relationship where they are playing the role of the sadist or the masochist (or both.)  Anyone that finds themselves in a position of self righteous anger is either being baited into a trap, or they are simply a sadistic bully.  Is there a group that enjoys a good round of self-righteous anger?  Well that's going off in a very, very dark direction indeed.

In future diaries,  we will look at the effects of narcissism, masochism, and trolling.  Because if someone lacks a suitable persecutory object in their lives, they can find one on-line by trolling.  And if you want to experience splitting, go get into a fight on Facebook.

++++++++++  Update  ++++++++++++

I just wanted to say that of course there is a whole other topic when it comes to these processes in the workplace, especially for managers.

But when a manager sees employees acting like this, don't just dismiss it as a "personality conflict" or "Oh Dan's being difficult"  (especially since Dan is probably the victim of a smear campaign).

The question that needs to be asked is "Who is stealing?"  Because this sort of interpersonal chaos is often a smokescreen for fraud and theft.

Originally posted to bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:13 PM PDT.

Also republished by Community Spotlight.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Thank you. (6+ / 0-)

      I aim to live in agreement with Benjamin Franklin's admonition to "Wrong none by doing injuries, or omitting the benefits that are your duty."

      by delonix on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 05:00:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Rudyard Kipling fully understood splitting and (17+ / 0-)

      projection and eloquently advised the means to developing an equanimity and maturity beyond it:

      If—
      By Rudyard Kipling

      (‘Brother Square-Toes’—Rewards and Fairies)
      If you can keep your head when all about you  
          Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,  
      If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
          But make allowance for their doubting too;  
      If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
          Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
      Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
          And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

      If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;  
          If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;  
      If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
          And treat those two impostors just the same;  
      If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
          Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
      Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
          And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

      If you can make one heap of all your winnings
          And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
      And lose, and start again at your beginnings
          And never breathe a word about your loss;
      If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
          To serve your turn long after they are gone,  
      And so hold on when there is nothing in you
          Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

      If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,  
          Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
      If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
          If all men count with you, but none too much;
      If you can fill the unforgiving minute
          With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,  
      Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,  
          And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

    •  Pima Chodron on finding the splitter/projector (11+ / 0-)

      within oneself:

      Whatever You Meet Unexpectedly, Join With Meditation

      "This is the slogan about surprises as gifts. These surprises can be pleasant or unpleasant; the main point is that they can stop your minds. You're walking along and a snowball hits you on the side of the head. It stops your mind.
      I was being driven in a car one day, when a horn honked loudly from behind. A car comes up by my window and the driver's face is purple and he's shaking his fist at me - my window is rolled down and so is his - and he yells "Get a job!" That one still stops my mind.

      The instruction is that when something stops your mind, catch the moment of that gap, that moment of big space, that moment of bewilderment, that moment of total astonishment, and let yourself rest in it a little longer than you ordinarily might.

      Interestingly enough, this is also the instruction on how to die. The moment of death is apparently a major surprise.

      After the gap, when you've begun to talk to yourself again - "That horrible person" or "Wasn't it wonderful that he allowed me to rest my mind in the nature of alaya?" - you could catch yourself and start to do tonglen practice. Let the story line go and get in touch.

      Usually we're so caught up in ourselves, we're hanging on to ourselves so tightly, that it takes a Mack truck knocking us down to wake us up and stop our minds. But really, as you begin to practice, it could just take the wind blowing the curtain.

      I had an interesting experience of something surprising me like this on retreat. I had been practicing all day, after which you might think I would be in a calm, saintly frame of mind. But as I saw that someone had left dirty dishes, I started to get really angry.

      Now, on this retreat we put our name on our dishes... there was only one woman of our group of eight who would leave such a mess. Who did she think was going to wash these dishes, her mother? Did she think we were all her slaves? I was really getting into this, I was thinking, "I've know her for a long time, but actually she might as well have never meditated for the way she's so inconsiderate of everybody else on this planet."

      When I got to the sink, I looked at the plate, and the name on it was "Pema" and the name on the cup was "Pema" and the name on the knife was "Pema". It was all mine! Needless to say, that cut my trip considerably. It also stopped my mind."
      (From her book Start Where You Are)

    •  ...well that clears that up ;) ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas, Vetwife

      Ignorance is bliss only for the ignorant. The rest of us must suffer the consequences. -7.38; -3.44

      by paradise50 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 03:32:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary. (35+ / 0-)

    I almost want to add the following tag to it,
    Required reading before entering any I/P diaries.

    Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

    by Arilca Mockingbird on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:38:28 PM PDT

  •  I enjoyed this (29+ / 0-)

    Also, "looking" at your mind is a form of mindfulness and theoretically can lead to enlightenment. At least, according to certain spirituality paths.

    Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will

    by miracle11 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 05:52:48 PM PDT

  •  Thank you! (64+ / 0-)

    I remember in our early married years my hubby would say something like, "So you don't want to spend money on a vacation at Easter!"

    I would say, "What?  Of course, I don't think that.  Why do you think I am thinking that?"

    He would be quiet for a while and then he would say, "Because that is what my parents would say."

    And I would say, "I am not your parents."

    He saved and saved his money for a guitar, and he found some on sale in the paper.  We went to the store and he found one he really liked the sound of and it was exactly how much money he had saved.

    Then he walked me out of the store.  I had enough sense to stop and say, "What are we doing out here?"

    He said he probably wouldn't use the guitar and it would be a waste of money.  (He had a beautiful voice and loved to sing).  He told me that his parents said that he could never stick to anything.

    I said, "Well, if you don't end up liking it, you can sell it.  No problem."  

    I got him to go back and buy it and he and a friend went to group lessons and practiced together and he is really, really good.  He used to play for his students just before the holidays.  He has more than one guitar, too.  (And both of his sons ended up getting guitars after they were married).

    I learned to watch out for this parent baggage.  I had some, too.  

    Join us at Bookflurries-Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

    by cfk on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 06:03:21 PM PDT

  •  also, this reminded me of the times (31+ / 0-)

    my dad would say when I was upset about something that had not happened, "You want to borrow a jack?"

    He was referring to a story about a man who had a flat tire late at night on a country road and had no jack.  He walked a long way toward a farm house and just as he reached it the light in the window went out.  

    The man thought the farmer would not let him in let alone loan him a jack so when he hollered and the farmer put up his window and leaned out, the man yelled at him, "I didn't want your old jack, anyway!"

    The story annoyed me, but I did learn to pay attention to the meaning of it and now I even smile.

    Join us at Bookflurries-Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

    by cfk on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 06:09:25 PM PDT

  •  One of my best insights was (33+ / 0-)

    that very fact: I dislike most about others what I dislike most about myself.   I also heard another great thing to keep in mind once: No one can be "self-actualized" 100% of the time.  Both together pretty much cover all the reasons I beat myself and others up.

    Maybe it's because, much to my own surprise, I'm 60 now, and I don't feel like what I imagined 60 year olds are supposed to feel.  So that means age is only a partial excuse for doing or not doing  anything.  The rest is on me.

    Then there's the part about how we have imaginary arguments in our heads that never really happened, but we react as if they did.  It's something I have had a lot of thoughts about lately.  I know I'm in a better place in the material world than many, and I also know my tendency is to work back to that level of stress that seems natural to me.  I know  that, but I must be mindful not to start those imaginary troubles, but try to tune into some eustress to get my adrenaline going.    

    "The light which puts out our sight is darkness to us." Thoreau

    by NancyWH on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 06:13:48 PM PDT

    •  Here I am, too ... (7+ / 0-)

      Currently doing great, but aware of that familiar place where all is not well:

      I also know my tendency is to work back to that level of stress that seems natural to me.  I know  that, but I must be mindful not to start those imaginary troubles, but try to tune into some eustress to get my adrenaline going.    
      Great diary. I have an advanced degree in psych and its good to see this complicated subject described in layman's terms.

      Well done.

      "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

      by annan on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 09:46:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In short (35+ / 0-)

    the unexamined life is not worth living.
                                                     --Socrates

    Nearly 30 years of therapy sometimes pays off. For instance a very good psychologist walked me through the teabagger mentality. I no longer hate them. Now I pity them.

    “You think You're frightening me with Your hell, don't You? You think Your hell is worse than mine.” --Dorothy Parker

    by Ice Blue on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 06:53:16 PM PDT

  •  I (18+ / 0-)

    hesitate to look into my own abyss. I'd rather just walk a little faster.

    “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    by 6412093 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 07:02:08 PM PDT

  •  Alcoholic Family Raises Risk Of One-Man Shows (23+ / 0-)

    http://www.theonion.com/...

    CHICAGO—According to an alarming new study released Monday by the University of Chicago, children raised in households where alcoholism is present are at a significantly greater risk of writing and performing a one-man show than those who grow up in a more stable environment.

    The study found that males raised by alcoholic parents are 40 percent more likely to someday force their friends to attend a self-penned theatrical production about their life experiences, and the same painful behavior is eight times more prevalent in women over the age of 30 who have alcoholic fathers than those who do not.

    According to the report, of the 250 one-man shows that premiered last month, three quarters of them, including Pops, A Life, and Youngstown, Ohio 1976, were directly linked to a relative who abused alcohol.

    "Children who have an alcoholic parent or grandparent can start displaying one-man show warning signs as early as 12," the study's lead author, Dr. Richard Lowden, told reporters. "And once these kids develop an interest in theater and start working on impressions of their alcoholic family members, it's a path to disaster."

    "To see them throw their lives away by performing an hour-and-a-half-long monologue for 15 people in a tiny black-box theater is just plain sad," he added. "Tragic even."

    Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

    by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:07:28 PM PDT

  •  I suppose it's easy to dismiss this stuff as (10+ / 0-)

    psych stuff. It's not that easy, IMO.

    People have their issues, but in my opinion, the failure to talk about it makes it toxic.

    "To take another person's life from the bench is no better than to take another person's life from the street"

    by commonmass on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:14:12 PM PDT

    •  Possible Diary On Shame (15+ / 0-)

      A lot of people here are deep into the shame thing.

      GF once said to me "You know that sense of shame that hangs over us all the time?"

      And I said "Well sure I guess so...  whaaaaat? No I never heard of that before!"

      Seriously, many people describe the abusive family as an environment where all emotion, positive or negative, is forbidden and the children are blamed.

      As I like to say - "Daddy only drinks because you cry!"

      I think this is central to the conservative mindset.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:30:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  There seems to be an interesting article (10+ / 0-)

        about mental health and creativity which was featured on the NewsHour (which to display my age I still refer to as the MacNeil/Lehrer Report though they just the other week stopped producing it. I also still call what comes next "Washington Week In Review").

        However, this:

        As I like to say - "Daddy only drinks because you cry!"
        Sometimes, Daddy drinks because he's creative and also has issues of his own. Sometimes, he's even homosexual on top of it.

        Pathology is a nice, neat, science. Little boxes, like the song says.

        I have my own struggles, however I would rather have my creativity than be "normal" which to me is the most repulsive state in which to live.

        "To take another person's life from the bench is no better than to take another person's life from the street"

        by commonmass on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:41:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "I have my own struggles, however I would rather" (0+ / 0-)

          have my creativity than be "normal" which to me is the most repulsive state in which to live."

          I once knew someone who needed lithium, who said that about lithium...

          We are all pupils in the eyes of God.

          by nuclear winter solstice on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 04:17:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Countless transsexuals of my age group (5+ / 0-)

          died because they didn't fit into whatever little box the psychiatrist-quacks of the moment were looking for, and hence weren't able to get prescriptions for hormones.

          What improved matters for us was not any advances in psychiatric pseudoscience, but the Internet -- which made it possible to buy hormones from countries outside the control of the AMA. This broke the monopolistic control shrinks had over our lives; we no longer had to suck their dicks to get hormones.

          Once transsexuals were freed from the draconian rules and closet homosexuality of transphobic American shrinks quacks, and began to self-transition, the rules magically changed, and now it is much easier to transition. But during the 1970s and part of the 80s, probably the majority of people who sought transition were not erotically titillating enough to the psychiatrists to be allowed to transition, and died as a result.

          American Presidents: 43 men, 0 women. Ready for Hillary

          by atana on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 10:25:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Freudians Have Left A Lot People In The Lurch (0+ / 0-)

            As much as I like Kernberg, it's really sad how he sometimes ties himself in knots to ignore Adler and his pragmatic plain spoken approach to compulsion.  It really detracts from Kernberg's work, and it's quite obvious at times, especially when alcoholism would be the most obvious example he could use.

            Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

            by bernardpliers on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 02:53:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I will add that my own father (6+ / 0-)

        is a teetotaler.

        "To take another person's life from the bench is no better than to take another person's life from the street"

        by commonmass on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:43:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My Friend Has That Scenario (6+ / 0-)

          His analyst is dumbfounded that his family is not a bunch of drunks. Otherwise, everything is else is a classic alcoholic family, minus booze.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 10:04:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting observation from a professional. (0+ / 0-)

            I'd hope that analyst realizes - unless he's seen their interactions firsthand - that everything he knows about that family is filtered through your friend's own observations.

          •  Mine is similar.... but (3+ / 0-)

            my grandfather by birth and the one that raised my father WERE alcoholics.

            Stir in the interesting social challenges of a boy definitely on the autism spectrum, and yes.

            I have spent a lot of time deliberately thinking about relationships both with my spouse and my sons so as not to continue the pattern.

            Help me get my utilities on! I can't eat this elephant by myself. http://www.gofundme.com/8xw014

            by Alexandra Lynch on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 10:12:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I Think Birth Order Counts For Something (0+ / 0-)

              My dad had a high functioning alcoholic narcissistic father, married three time (first wife died of TB). Dad was born to wife #3 and his mother was fine.  dad had some narcissism, but did OK for himself without ever being a "user" of other people.

              I was born third of three kids spaced wide apart so my folks were were comfortable being parents at that point.  They are now married 60 years.  But my older brother definitely absorbed some of dad's traits and used to be wrapped a little too tight.  I think I skipped that dynamic.  And my brother  just turned 60 and is gliding into retirement with a modest pension and a steady girlfriend.  

              Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

              by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 11:35:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Agreed re the failure to talk about it. Perspectiv (4+ / 0-)

      requires a minimum of two points of view. As an aside, that's why binocular or stereoscopic vision is the most popular body plan on the planet, depth perception requires it.

      Anyway; What we perceive from our own point of view is usually too narrow to understand the whole situation and we often have strong reactions from that narrow perception.

      Conferring with others to gain the perspective to identify cause and effect so to understand what happened, and our place in it, either relieves the anxiety of uncertainty and/or builds a foundation for genuine understanding. Without that feedback and perspective, we tend to get stuck in our own narrow pov which is almost certainly unstable and inaccurate.

      Talking it out and understanding what actually happened can defuse and temper the reactions. Refusing or being unable to identify and resolve those reactions and perceptions begins a self-reinforcing internal feedback loop.

      An analogy is an abscess. A foreign object may lodge in the body. Opening the insult and allowing the area air and sunlight, (or breaching the capsule and introducing antibiotics) allows it to heal. Covering it so it shows less, or ignoring it allows the infection to fester and spread.

      Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
      ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

      by FarWestGirl on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 07:39:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Well, this was enlightening. I routinely have to (14+ / 0-)

    deal with a person that you describe as a splitter/projector. In trying to deal with this person (I am one of many who have to deal with this person at times) we've tried to figure out whether just ignoring this person would be better, or whether to continue to point out the facts and fight the issue openly because these are ALWAYS public accusations. Neither sounds like it would work. We all recognize something is going on, but the level of hatred coming from that end is beyond touching.

    It goes like this: Person accuses someone of doing something that clearly they did not do OR add some weird thing to what they DID do. Makes a firm judgement about it OR makes a clear intimation and starts a fight. Ends up calling others bullies. Friends rally around and tell person how wonderful person is (e.g. accuser and problem causer becomes victim). It repeats constantly and seems cyclical.

    The behavior is terrible to deal with and extremely disruptive.

    On top of this, there is some hero stuff going on; Person seems to believe they are here to root out imagined "corruption" and is extremely authoritarian.

    How are people to best deal with this?

    The only hawk I like is the kind that has feathers. My birding blogs: http://thisskysings.wordpress.com/ and canyonbirds.net

    by cany on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:45:45 PM PDT

    •  Treat Them With Genuine Empathy And Openess (11+ / 0-)

      ...and they will feel physically raped. They are an absolute control freak who manipulates every interactions with others.

      If this is an employment situation, take every precaution and consult a lawyer to avoid landmines,  but you can get rid of them fairly easily.

      Then you'll need to make sure you have authority to fire their best fried, and next month fire that person's best friend, and probably at least one more after that.  Once this shit gets established, it's like chopping off the head of the hydra and two more grow back.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 10:34:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not an employment situation, it's a community (11+ / 0-)

        involvement situation and it's just TOXIC. The worst part is a lot of people don't realize what's going on and the whole community gets polluted because of it.

        It's a frigging nightmare to deal with. AND this person has a terrible temper and owns a gun. Ugh.

        The only hawk I like is the kind that has feathers. My birding blogs: http://thisskysings.wordpress.com/ and canyonbirds.net

        by cany on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 11:03:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh Boy One Of Those Volunteer Narcissist Monsters (9+ / 0-)

          Yes that's worse than an employment situation in terms of remedies.

          It depends how much psychic and emotional energy you can throw at the project.  Learn the rules so they can't make it up as they go and then be more anal than they are.  Bust them when they bend the rules, over and over and over. Grab them by the belt like a cowboy hanging onto a bucking bronc and ride them until they drop.  Since they expect a conspiracy you might as well have one, then create a fake conspiracy to distract them.  Check out their criminal record and credit report.  Make yourself completely unavailable to them so they can't call or email. when they try to involve third parties, tell them you won't take the message.  Learn Robert's Rules Of Order and make all meetings formal. People like that thrive on chaos so impose order. Is there money? demand a full accounting.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 11:18:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Now you're getting into something I thought (6+ / 0-)

            was missing(-ish) from this wonderful diary: These people can be extraordinarily effective manipulators. People fall for their shit right and left. I have a narcissist grandmother. She pulls people in right and left. Other narcissists I've met do the same. Most people eventually get how awful narcissists are, but it can take some serious time, and it seems like there are a lot of people who never will get it.

            They are complete hell to deal with, and I would admit that I don't think I'm especially good with them or their flunkies. I just try very hard to keep my distance, either literally or figuratively. Most of the time I try to keep it to literal distance. I have my own issues to deal with, and I don't feel like I have the proper tools for dealing with people like that.

            When I was little, my favorite poem was "The Purple Cow-" "I never saw a purple cow; I never hope to see one. But I can tell you anyhow, I'd rather see one than be one." When I was in college, I realized that some people are purple cows. I don't want to see them, but they make me grateful to be my own relatively harmless, content(-ish) self.

            •  I'm Working On A Narcissism Diary (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dvalkure, high uintas, boudi08

              I was working on that originally, and i thought I needed to do this one first to lay the groundwork for an explanation of "narcissistic injury,"  "narcissistic rage," and "compensatory narcissism."

              Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

              by bernardpliers on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 12:11:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Great idea (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                high uintas, bernardpliers

                I hear that term tossed about a lot, so it would be interesting to read and discuss some specifics. Just as we see a lot of 'projection' from the 'right wing' and this in depth look helps me to understand it  ( in myself as well as others ! ) much better.

                 I love a diary like this and all the comments are just icing on the cake !

                   Thanks

                " In America we've got to get our politics above the 'snake line' ~ Yes we are ! Yes we can ! Yes we will !" Rev.Wm. Barber

                by Dvalkure on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 01:05:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Classic narcissists (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  high uintas, boudi08, Dvalkure

                  Our fictional narcissists, like Stephen Colbert, are often unrealistically benign.  Laughing at people like this in real life may be the last thing you ever do.
                  Kenneth Branagh as Gilderoy Lockhart
                  Politics is loaded with narcissists.  Weiner is the Don Juan "somatic narcissist"
                  Leaving your sick wife is a classic narcissist dick move. Got any more examples of this? Three come to mind:
                  There's Newt
                  John Edwards
                  John McCain

                  Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                  by bernardpliers on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 03:55:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Emotional Distance Is The Key (9+ / 0-)

          That self righteousness thing?  Yeah, that's out the window.  The attitude should be either bored indifference or icy predator.  This is probably only possible if you did not have someone like this punching your buttons in your family.  If you could adopt the air of entitlement like a narcissist who assumes they are running the show and does not even notice them, this would put them totally off balance.   But you have to figure out the rules and wait for them to break the rules.

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 11:27:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  1st print out this diary and circulate it. It (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cany, Catkin, high uintas

          should help raise awareness in the surrounding people. Then confab and get a group approach on how to deal with it.

          You may need to involve an outside mediator or mental health professional to set ground rules and oversee things while the situation is resolved.

          Good luck.

          Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
          ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

          by FarWestGirl on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 07:46:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Naming Anyone Will Get You Sued (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FarWestGirl, dandy lion, high uintas

            That is legally actionable right there.  you can discuss the topic, send links etc.  Then some other time mention that it applies in a certain situation.  And never connect those dots in print or an email.  And it helps to say "I'm NOT going to put this in writing for legal reasons."

            Despite this, bosses and HR departments do this all the time.  Since the recession they are quite out of control, and this keeps my employment lawyer buddy working.

            Keep in mind that there's this whole other Transactional Analysis thing about complaining about other people.  And a huge part of the whole splitting/projection cycle is complaining to other people and enlisting allies.  But it seems unavoidable IRL.  

            Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

            by bernardpliers on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:12:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I worked for that guy for several years. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      high uintas, Gardener in PA

      It almost killed me, I swear…

      And because almost every accusation he made against me was something that he actually did, I couldn't refute them without looking like an idiot and/or a self-serving liar. At least that's what I thought.

      I quit after I found another job. Anyone with any sense would have quit immediately after this started. My excuse was that I was a single parent with a teenager and a mortgage and a car payment. And I kept thinking things would get better.

      They didn't.      

      "You can observe a lot just by watching." ~ Yogi Berra

      by dandy lion on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 04:52:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A Lot Of Times That Person Is STEALING At Work (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrblifil, high uintas, boudi08

        many times this person is ripping off the company, often in a very crude theft scam.  All their interpersonal bullshit is an effective smokescreen.  I'm not sure of this is a conscious strategy, unconscious, or just the overlap of two behaviors.

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 05:02:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I worked at a restaurant where management caugh... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bernardpliers

          I worked at a restaurant where management caught a waiter stealing tips for himself (he was supposed to pool). He was released forthwith. Weeks later he arrived with his wife on a Friday night to dine as a customer. He was placed at the worst table in the place and his wife looked baffled the whole evening as he sat there with his face literally beet red. He clearly hadn't told her he no longer worked there. She had probably demanded that he claim his perq by giving her a fancy night out. It was the action of an insane person, to come back to the scene of the crime and parade his humiliated status before the rest of us, all of whom had privately vowed at one point or another to punch him in the face if we ever saw him again. He was inoculated from physical brutality that night, but I'll never forget the act of cruelty he practiced on himself. Deviant behavior seems to have an infinite variety of shapes.

  •  What an excellent diary! (12+ / 0-)

    I'm looking forward to more of them...thank you.

  •  Everyone who disagrees with me (16+ / 0-)

    is totally guilty of this.

    You can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America.

    by Eric Stratton on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:55:17 PM PDT

  •  Excellent Diary (11+ / 0-)

    To quote Anais Nin (among others): We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.

    Whenever I see myself getting too restless, irritable and discontent (anyone in recovery will recognize the reference) I need to look at myself, my thinking, and my behavior.   Bad behavior on someone else's part never justifies my own bad behavior, and past experience tells me that sometimes IMAGINED bad behavior on someone else's part elicited ACTUAL bad behavior on mine.

    Understanding the power of imagined threats is what has made FOX news so effective.  Listeners can justify the most repellent behavior because they have been convinced that their very survival is at stake.  Hence the insane reaction the tea party has to children trying to come here to escape brutal conditions.

    It has been a real blessing of age (and sobriety) to, at age 61 understand that most of my suffering has been self-inflicted, most of the "wrongs" others have done to me have been inflated by my own imagination, and that today I am responsible for my own behavior.

    I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. -- Susan B. Anthony

    by bluestatesam on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 04:13:51 AM PDT

  •  My moment of insight (9+ / 0-)

    was when I was on the phone with someone (family member), and he was yelling and screaming at me about how angry I must be about what had just happened to him at work. I actually did not care in the least as I had no dog in that fight.

    This was someone who had been telling me for 20 years what an angry person I was, mostly at times when I didn't feel angry (or at least not until he told me I was angry, which made me angry because I needed to push back against being misunderstood. . . .)

    In that phone call, I suddenly realized that he couldn't deal with his own anger (which was probably overwhelming, like PTSD), so always shoved it off onto me -- and I didn't need to own it, or push back, or anything, because it wasn't mine. I just held the phone at arm's length.

  •  My head hurts. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers, ban nock, high uintas

    Consumerism is the deepest shrinkage of what it means to be human. - Dr. Vandana Shiva

    by bisleybum on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 06:04:15 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for so much to think about (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers, hester, high uintas

    and it's not even noon yet!

    "Portion of the adolescent prisoners in solitary on Rikers Island who have been diagnosed with a mental illness: 7/10." Tell someone.

    by RJDixon74135 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 07:19:44 AM PDT

  •  we all have our hot buttons (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers, ban nock, high uintas

    and when

    everyone does this to some degree
    they get pushed it is important to examine our own motivations before blaming others.
  •  Superb. Very understandable. I'd been roughing out (4+ / 0-)

    a diary on pathological personalities in various 'rescue' situations and this puts a whole new, and very accessible, foundation under it, thank you. And if I manage to get it finished, I will definitely link to this one. :-)

    lol, this pretty much describes the neocons and teabaggers to a T. It should be very helpful in getting people to understand them better and work around them more effectively.

    ::sigh:: One of the things this implies is that we have way too many people wandering around who didn't have nearly enough invested in them as children. And who will likely be irretrievable because of it.

    Never enough time/resources to do it right(raising kids), but always time/resources assumed to do it over(jail/war). Except there aren't. ::sigh::

    Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
    ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

    by FarWestGirl on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:01:45 AM PDT

  •  The person we know best is always our self. You (5+ / 0-)

    can tell alot about a person by the baseless accusations they make about others.

    "Wrong, Do it again!" "If you don't learn to compete, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't learn to compete?" "You! Yes, you occupying the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

    by ban48 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:02:06 AM PDT

  •  I also think that theism re-inforces projection (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers, high uintas

    and turns it into a learned behaviour, for the obvious reasons....

    "Wrong, Do it again!" "If you don't learn to compete, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't learn to compete?" "You! Yes, you occupying the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

    by ban48 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:03:20 AM PDT

  •  I'll also throw in that the entire 'pro life' (4+ / 0-)

    movement is nothing but a group projection and reaction to it.  The fertilized egg is simply the ultimate invisible friend that abortion opponents have created in their mind and they are acting out against others for destroying their fantasy.  That is also why there is no rationality to the debate - it is a debate about a figment of the imagination which people have taught themselves to treat as real.

    "Wrong, Do it again!" "If you don't learn to compete, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't learn to compete?" "You! Yes, you occupying the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

    by ban48 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:16:48 AM PDT

  •  Great diary Bernard.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers, high uintas, greenbird

    ...you've "grabbed" a bunch of us....

    "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

    by leftykook on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:35:18 AM PDT

  •  I will forever more read every single thing you (4+ / 0-)

    post.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 09:02:19 AM PDT

  •  IDK? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego

    My goal is to educate. Not get called retard.

  •  Is taking a pot shot at a troll (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers, high uintas

    bad mental hygiene?  If you only do it once in a while? Sometimes I can't resist.

    Light is seen through a small hole.

    by houyhnhnm on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 09:20:28 AM PDT

    •  Wear A Condom (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      houyhnhnm, high uintas

      There has only been a tiny amount of research on trolls, although it overlaps with some forms of bullying. The DSM only recognizes the classic forms of narcissism, the proud grandiose types.  But there is also a general feeling that the masochistic forms of narcissism should get their own category.  Many people that are self sabotaging, antisocial, and dependent also have strong narcissistic traits.  But the internet really put. them on display like never before.  A conservative troll may spend literally weeks trolling on some site even when they almost completely ignored.  They don't even mind being called a jobless hermit that only makes human contact to be humiliated.  And apparently there is a whole fantasy world where this shows they have power over others.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 10:18:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Simply superb! Tyvm. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    high uintas

    "Say little, do much" (Pirkei Avot 1:15)

    by hester on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 10:43:14 AM PDT

  •  since no one else has mentioned this (4+ / 0-)

    I would like to point out that the author spends a good chunk of this diary considering fictional characters from movies in order to talk about psychiatry in an apparently authoritative (but absolutely 100% unsourced) way. The only links in this diary go to other diaries by this same author, who is not any sort of mental health professional or expert. (To be fair, he does not claim to be, but neither does he include a disclaimer to inform his readers.)

    In other words, there are a number of assertions of fact in this diary (and the others by the author in this series), and I hope people have their grains of salt at the ready....

    The American weakness is that we try to rule the world with public relations, then end up believing our own con jobs. We are adrift in a mythical ship which no longer touches land.--Gustav Hansford

    by nota bene on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 10:55:23 AM PDT

    •  What In Particular Do You Have An Issue With? (0+ / 0-)

      "I think that gay marriage is something that should be between a man and a woman.” - Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

      by kerplunk on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:07:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's the style of argumentation (4+ / 0-)

        There are assertions throughout the piece, and the citations are Youtube clips of popular movies and TVTropes.org. And his other diaries, of course.

        The underlying premise may be 100% correct for all I know; it's not like I have any credentials on this topic either. It's the rhetorical style itself that sets off my bullshit detector.

        Re-read his second-to-last paragraph, for example, with what I've said in mind:

        My personal opinion is that a person interested in assessing their own mental health or protecting their mental health should try to estimate how much of their time is spent in a state of self righteous anger.  If they are spending very much time being self righteous it means they are in some sort of bad relationship where they are playing the role of the sadist or the masochist (or both.)  Anyone that finds themselves in a position of self righteous anger is either being baited into a trap, or they are simply a sadistic bully.
        YMMV, I dunno.

        This diary ended up on both the Rec List and the Spotlight, so lots of people will read it, and I saw no other comments that were skeptical or uncritical.

        The American weakness is that we try to rule the world with public relations, then end up believing our own con jobs. We are adrift in a mythical ship which no longer touches land.--Gustav Hansford

        by nota bene on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:41:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Unsourced material is a grave epistemological sin (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AaronInSanDiego, high uintas

      when it steps on the toes of powerful industries. But in the service of conventional wisdom and pop psychology it is perfectly acceptable.

      American Presidents: 43 men, 0 women. Ready for Hillary

      by atana on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:16:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Also Most Of This Material Is 50+ Years Old (0+ / 0-)

        And as far as ideas like "revenge provides moral justification," just channel surf for whatever half dozen kung-fu, Clint Eastwood, or horror movies are showing at this very moment.

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 02:05:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I think this diary overlooks the fact that rage (4+ / 0-)

    is an evolutionary adaptation, with supporting brain structures. It's pretty hard to believe that ancient brain machinery is simply a "pathology".

    At least in a social animal, rage can function adaptively as a way of changing intolerable situations. If an elite of alpha males becomes oppressive enough, those who suffer under their regime may -- in an explosion of rage -- kill them and allow social reorganization. This seems to happen in chimpanzee societies and in human societies.

    Rage can thus be the root of revolutions, and -- unsurprisingly -- elites who enjoy unjust privileges fear and scorn uncontrolled rage. They may concoct religious theories about it (the Devil) or, in a contemporary context, pseudoscientific theories (DSM).

    Most rage is not effective at bringing about social change, but this is largely because entrenched privilege has found many ways to make it ineffective -- especially by getting oppressed people to express it horizontally, against each other, rather than against their true oppressors.

    But elite marginalization of oppressed people, though usually effective, is never a sure thing, and from time to time the guillotines and tumbrels come out. The crowned heads never sleep entirely easily, and we have ancient brain adaptations to thank for that.

    American Presidents: 43 men, 0 women. Ready for Hillary

    by atana on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:00:29 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for the character analysis. (4+ / 0-)

    A big part of the reason I'm not more involved in FB, beyond having a very skeletal account, is the ridiculousness of the culture that's grown up surrounding that venue, one of constant political wars.

    Hell, the Republicans knew it back in the 1970s and 1980s: you don't waste your time arguing with people you'll never win over. You leave them be. (For canvassing and fundraising, you concern yourself with the "low-hanging fruit.") It seems they've forgotten that wisdom since. So have we.

    Let's all re-learn it.

    More to the point of your diary, whenever I resent somebody these days, increasingly, I view my emotional response as a "red flag." I don't believe what I think, because I'm old enough, I've had quite a bit of experience  that proves the unreliability of my thoughts in helping me navigate reality. So I ask myself, what is going on here? What does this person represent that I dislike in myself?

    Supple and turbulent, a ring of men/ Shall chant in orgy on a summer morn...

    by karmsy on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 11:04:24 AM PDT

  •  self-hate leads to hatred of others like the self (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers

    That doesn't surprise me at all.

    It also leads to the desire to vicariously control, transform, and "redeem" oneself by altering one's environment - since you've completely depersonalized yourself - and the people in it who now bear one's own sins.

    The common thread seems to be looking on the outside to solutions for what you feel is wrong on the inside, whether you're thinking about yourself or about other people ... and this is because you despise or disown what's inside.  Now growing and becoming whole is always easier with a guide - especially one who can be stronger for you than you can be for yourself - and the more messed up you are, the more compelling and micromanaging you're going to want that outside force to be, precisely because you have no faith in yourself.

    It's easy to see how these psychopathologies translate into politics ... and religion.  The problem is that it's very hard to talk people out of their problems, especially when those problems are real.  It's entirely possible that they cannot feel differently until they become different, since in their minds they're being objective.  On the one hand, that's good - like the psychologist joke says: "the lightbulb has to want to change".  The problem is that you get stuck in not even trying because you look at yourself and think you can't possibly succeed, certainly not at the level you want to be at.

    Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

    by Visceral on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 12:22:03 PM PDT

  •  Psych issues affect themselves in eating disorders (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AaronInSanDiego, bernardpliers

    as well. Heal the mind and render the diet more healthy.

    Easier said than done, I can vouch for that!

    "As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed, and demand a rent even for its natural produce." - Adam Smith: The Wealth of Nations

    by ozsea1 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 12:52:08 PM PDT

  •  baloney (0+ / 0-)

    Aside from having absolutely no empirical validation, or serious scientific studies to support them, these terms have no real clinical foundation.  All this stuff from Klein, Jung, or Kernberg is a bunch of hooey.  

  •  not sure I believe all of this, (0+ / 0-)

    but it's interesting.

    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

    by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 03:57:59 PM PDT

  •  which 'Alice' was is who wrote the book (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers

    about 'The [something] Child'

    c'mon - help me out here.
    you know the one i mean ...

    i was in it !!!

    ;)

    TRAILHEAD of accountability for Bush-2 Crimes? -- Addington's Perpwalk.

    by greenbird on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 09:13:18 PM PDT

  •  This diary was awesome !! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers

    The whole world does not revolve around Vet issues BUT
    you described much of how ptsd patients and their families
    struggle with one or more victims of ptsd.  

    The vet or most I have met expect perfection as it is life or death.. Then they want acceptance.......from possible survival guilt.... They have unrealstic expectations of folks and are used to demanding things they themselves cannot even do.   They wear a mask of many characters and each one bears a different burden.   Some war related and some war aggravated from their home life...  It gets even more complicated on readjustment.... Most have priorties all in the wrong place and simply do not know how to cope drama free.  The are very abusive to themselves.  Others get caught in the cross fire.

    The right is about as wrong as it gets and please help veterans ...Thanks ! United Veterans of America

    by Vetwife on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 07:06:40 AM PDT

  •  I am really shocked to see this from you (0+ / 0-)

    Your grasp of this subject belies your behavior on some of my diaries.

    For instance, a diary about citizens in my county working for an initiative elevating our rights above corporations in matters of local concern prompted you to post a video of a policeman being murdered. The DK editors quickly hr'd ' you with a sharp reprimand.

    I hope that this diary represents a change in your own self-knowledge and will result in your stooping to such egregious and offensive behavior being a thing of the past.

    We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

    by occupystephanie on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 07:37:59 AM PDT

    •  I'm Pretty Sure That Was Not Me (0+ / 0-)

      What country? I get plenty of HR's, but that is due to the effort of a specific group of stalkers.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:48:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Here it is: (0+ / 0-)
        * [new]  The Bus Left The Station Nearly 20 Years Ago (1+ / 3-)

        When the "Sovereigns" started randomly killing about one cop a year.

        This SPLC video doesn't embed, but it's good.

        http://youtu.be/....

        Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

        by bernardpliers on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:11:49 PM PST

        You went on to defend this comment. I must admit that I have been puzzled by your complete change of voice from your earlier postings.  Before, you had never shown or claimed any scientific expertise, but now you are.

        We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

        by occupystephanie on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 10:17:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bundy Ranch Use Of "Sovereigns" Made My Point (0+ / 0-)

          Early this year people in the US were trying to use the word "sovereign" in connection with anti-GMO activism, elevating it to the level of some sort of slogan. But in the US the word "sovereign" is associated with violent right wing conspiracy nuts.

          In the US, ":sovereign" is a dog whistle for the Sovereign Citizens movement, right wing and often white supremacist anarchists who have killed dozens of cops, usually in ambushes.

          The Bundy Ranch stand-off gave us many examples of the use of the word "sovereign" in this context.

          And then a couple of their people went down the road and shot two cops executions style in a Walmart.

          I'll stand by the point I made.  I don't think my comment is proof that I have some character flaw. Don't try to use the word "sovereign" as some sort of slogan.

          Be sure to look for my future diary on shame, efforts to control people through shame, and the urge to follow people around for being "defiant."

          Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

          by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 11:00:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There now that is more characteristic (0+ / 0-)

            of the bernardplier's persona. Although not as monosyllabic as before.

            I never used the term sovereign. This is about our civil rights under the law as we are pursuing through the courts and the ballot box.

            We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

            by occupystephanie on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 11:06:33 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Covering Your Tracks With A Gish Gallop (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buddabelly
              I never used the term sovereign.
              Sez you!

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              Text search show you used the word "sovereign" twice in diary, once in the tags, and about three times in the comments, and total use of the term by the foodies was about a dozen.

              I scolded you giuys for trying to latch on white supremacist buzzwords.

              And when you claim I

              prompted you to post a video of a policeman being murdered.
              I didn't remember posting an offensive video because I didn't post that video (see where you quote me upthread)
              This SPLC video doesn't embed,
              I posted a link to a video from the SPLC.

              You guys HR'd a link for a Southern Poverty Law Center video.

              Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

              by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 12:03:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, you just posted a link to an offensive video (0+ / 0-)

                of a policeman being murdered.

                Well, that is quite different of course!

                You still got hr'd for it and were chastised for threadjacking the same diary. Not what I would call reasonable behavior.

                Check out that enraged voice screaming in your own head, Bernie.

                We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

                by occupystephanie on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 12:22:44 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your Check's In The Mail, Thanks For Your Help (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buddabelly

                  Your comments were the icing on the cake.

                  Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                  by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 12:26:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Understanding The Bizzare Cut-And-Paste Thing (0+ / 0-)

                  Specific people have been been doing that to me for years, and I have to say I have always drawn a complete blank on what people aim to do by cutting and pasting what seems to be nearly random sniippets of text.

                  Because this seems to usually be a thing done by people that run in packs, I figured this was just sort of a "You eat boogers!" thing where content did not matter as long as there were other people to pile on.

                  But gradually I have come to the opinion about what's going on and why year after year I have no f'ing idea what this is supposed to represent.

                  Now lots of people have a sort of magical belief in their ability to micromanage other people's thoughts and emotions, otherwise we would not get involved in endless situations of trying to change other people.  Like Harry Potter, just the right combination of words can get the job done, and (Ta-da!) they will be a different person.  When people are like a dog with a bone in the use of one approach, they expect some specific result.  More specifically, they expect to create a particular reaction and state of mind  in their target.

                  I think the cut-and-paste thing is something like this:

                  This is shame.  I am shaming you.  You now feel ashamed. You have been shamed.
                  For many people, their response is a "Whaaaat?" because they weren't raised with shame, so there is not an avalanche of shame in their heads ready to be triggered at any moment.  A lot of people just don't have what it takes to spend a weekend curled in a ball sobbing over some meaningless remark from a stranger.  Not. Gonna. Happen.

                  But I've seen that in real life also, where someone delivers what is clearly supposed to be the extravagant "finishing move" in the fight, and they seem to be taking a mental victory lap.  And I'm left thinking "OK your friends are cheering as hard as they can but  I was way over there while you were doing the flying drop kick, if that's what it was supposed to be. Frankly I'm not even sure what that was."

                  Failure  to acknowledge or understand the shaming is interpreted as defiance (which is one of the recognized responses to shaming), and the response to defiance is likely to get very ugly indeed.  Notice also that shaming is frequently a group activity.  Around here the context is usually "slut shaming," and yes the ladies can play the aggressive shame game at least as well as men.

                  See also bullying and scapegoating.

                  Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                  by bernardpliers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 08:35:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Here is a link to the comment: (0+ / 0-)

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Since you do not recall the comment and thread.

          We have it within our power to make the world over again ~ Thomas Paine

          by occupystephanie on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 11:03:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This is not the common use of "splitting." (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers

    The phenomenon is a defense mechanism, however, it is simply the inability to reconcile good and bad characteristics into a whole understanding of a person.

    The splitter flips from "love" to "hate." People and things are either the "best" or the "worst." There is no ability to see the good and bad simultaneously and accept complex emotional realities, like a parent who loved you but was an alcoholic.

    I've never seen it described as you are using it before this diary, although I'll admit, I haven't read current psychology texts since the 90s other than Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/..._(psychology)

    The wiki entry confirms my understanding of the term.

    However, I do think it plays a role in on-line arguments. Your definition is just kind of sideways to it's common use in psychology.

    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill (Before the internet.)

    by New Jersey Boy on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:47:35 AM PDT

    •  I Skipped The Whole "Idealization" Thing (0+ / 0-)

      You're making a valid point there, so let me explain my perspective and goals on this.

      There's the whole textbook Feud/Klein thing about the infant and the breast which really gets into the ideological loyalties of the different schools of pyschoanalysis.  At it's worst, that stuff is like Scientology.  Not to say it isn't real, but it's the most primitive stuff emotionally, and it the topic carrying the densest jargon. Many people aren't going to relate to it emotionally or intellectually.  

      What I was writing about is much more on the area of transference and countertransference.  For instance, a therapist  could experience countertransference with a patient based on the therapists early background.  Let's say he (in this case) had a narcissistic personality disorder mothers (very plausible backstory for a therapist) and a patient walks in who is a narcissistic mother. He's going to experience a countertransference without ever idealizing her, he's not going to swoon over her even though as a narcissist she's likely to come prancing in wearing a tennis outfit.

      Long term I'm looking at interactions outside families and personal relationships where the classic love/hate cycle is not what's putting people together in the first place.

      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

      by bernardpliers on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 11:25:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This all seems like a posting by a psych major (0+ / 0-)

        who took a 5-hour energy drink, and is making all kinds of "connections."

        You need to know what these terms mean before you go on the lecture circuit.

        And this is to say nothing about your atrocious spelling.

        Keep trying. I believe your heart is in the right place, but it's clear these ideas and terminology are new to you.

        "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill (Before the internet.)

        by New Jersey Boy on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 08:09:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I mean, you weren't talking about transference, (0+ / 0-)

          and counter transference.

          You were talking about Splitting and Projection - see your title.

          "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill (Before the internet.)

          by New Jersey Boy on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 08:13:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anything You Think I Should Read? (0+ / 0-)

            What resources am I overlooking? I just found Reich's "Character Analysis" on-line.

            People use jargon to mean all sorts of different things depending on what school of thought they use.  As a physician, how many ways are there to measure kidney function?  How many GFR formulas are there? At least three, probably 5 or 6.

            There are all sorts of things that Freudians wont talk about, but that doesn't mean they aren't real.

            Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

            by bernardpliers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 12:47:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe an introductory psychology text. (0+ / 0-)

              That way you can see the various theories all in one place with comparisons and contrasts and the vocabulary is clearly defined.

              There are very few who are pure Freudian's in practice, but everyone knows what his terms mean. You seem to know the terms, but are using a few of them as if they mean the same thing.

              Freud's defense mechanisms and Id, Ego, and Super Ego are Psych 101. Whether you believe it or not, you have to get the vocabulary right to discuss it with others. And there's a difference between professionals using the terms a few different ways, and misuse due to mixing up the terms: splitting, projection, transference, and counter transference are all distinct.

              I'm not a psychiatrist, but was a psychology major in college, then relearned the same material during psychiatry in medical school. Additionally, my mother is a psychologist, so I grew up with this stuff. I still think it's interesting, and that's why I opened your diary. I hope you don't find my comments discouraging. You remind me of myself when I first started studying. I just want you to get it right.

              Good luck with your self study.

              "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill (Before the internet.)

              by New Jersey Boy on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 04:54:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  AND, my mother used to correct me (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bernardpliers

                when I misused the terms.

                So, here I am doing the same.

                Paging Dr. Freud. . .

                "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill (Before the internet.)

                by New Jersey Boy on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 05:09:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So What AM I talking About? (0+ / 0-)

                  Because so far you haven't actually said anything. Nice devaluation though.

                  Good thing you aren't just talking to me in your mother's scolding voice, because obviously you know better than to do that.

                  Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                  by bernardpliers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:49:01 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry if I sounded "scolding." I may be pedantic. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bernardpliers

                    I took enough tests on this stuff that I kind of care about the "right" and "wrong" with regard to the terminology. I lost points on a test once upon a time, dammit!

                    Like I said, I think your heart is in the right place and the points are good.

                    When you ended your original post with the invitation for corrections, I thought you'd want to hear some.

                    Perhaps my tone could have been better? I'll claim the usual on-line excuses: if in the morning - not enough coffee, if in the evening - too much wine, any other time - stressed out.

                    Please understand that my heart is also in the right place.  I didn't mean to devalue your post or diary.

                    I sought to add to it.

                    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill (Before the internet.)

                    by New Jersey Boy on Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 07:55:51 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm Sorry To Be Cranky (0+ / 0-)

                      I open myself to criticism in writing things like this, it goes with the territory.

                      Over the long haul, I'd like to explore an area most neglected by psychiatry - the interaction of people situations where one person has a problem and the other person has no personal interest in them whatsoever but they must interact because of work and similar situations. Psychiatry focuses on the interaction of people bound by relationships of kinship or marriage or romance.  Rarely is there any mention of people who have to interact with these folks without getting being forced into the role of a surrogate family member.

                      When I alluded to transference, I mean the problem of interacting with people that are disturbed, accusing, overly familiar, and seem to be babbling in a code that could only have meaning to members of their immediate family.  And they expect to be dictating the terms of a relationship that holds no interest for the other person. They expect to get much very involved in their coworkers' personal lives, and if they can't, they'll simply make shit up.  And the psychiatrist would see this person and think "I see what's happening, but it's not going to go according to this person's script where they call the shots."  But what recourse does a regular person have?

                      I don't even think it's acknowledged that people have to deal with this situation on a daily basis.  Even pointing out the pervasiveness of the problem is likely to get one attacked by a mental health professional.  

                      Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                      by bernardpliers on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 03:59:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Be Sure To Watch For The Narcissism Diary (0+ / 0-)

                You'll enjoy it.  And there's lot of hazy use of jargon in that area.

                Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness. -Pascal

                by bernardpliers on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:29:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

  •  All of this is the reason why reproductive freedom (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bernardpliers

    Is so important. If a woman/girl does not want to bear a child, it's important that they are not forced to. Forcing them often leads to dangerous adults that harm others when those children that were forced on them grow up.

    We all feel it if we are not wanted, even if it's not overt abuse. It warps human beings.



    Women create the entire labor force.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

    by splashy on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:47:53 AM PDT

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