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Even though circumstantial evidence is mounting that pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine shot Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 out of the sky with a missile, the rebels have been frantically maintaining they had nothing to do with it.  But they haven't convinced anyone of their innocence with their behavior at the site.  The latest instance of this comes with word from the Ukrainian government that international investigators can't get to the site because rebels have set up mines around it.

Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council claimed Wednesday that "terrorists" -- the term it uses to describe rebels -- have set up firing positions and laid mines on the access road to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

The Ukrainian government and pro-Russian rebels are fighting over control of eastern Ukraine.

Dutch investigators in Ukraine did not mention mines but announced Wednesday that unsafe conditions kept their contingent from visiting the crash site for the fourth straight day.

Ukrainian officials say the dangers in the area are such that it's "impossible" for investigators to work there.  

Although these claims haven't been verified yet, they're very believable in light of the rebels' past behavior.  Remember, these people only turned over hundreds of bodies stored aboard refrigerated train cars, as well as the black boxes, under intense international pressure.

The OSCE has called for a cease-fire so investigators can get to the site.  His call was echoed by Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte, who personally asked Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko to stop the fighting long enough for investigators to start their work.  The Dutch-Australian investigation team hasn't even been able to see the wreckage yet.

Looks like the pressure is on the rebels--and to a lesser extent, Kiev--to show some basic decency.

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Comment Preferences

  •  It's funny to watch the Propaganda at work. (8+ / 0-)

    The Globe and Mail mentioned roadblocks and shelling 19 times in their OSCE article, with out mentioning even once, that it was the Nationalist's roadblocks and shelling preventing the OSCE observers access to the site.

    The Nationalists are trapped.

    They can't offer a ceasefire, because they drew a line in the sand barring any negotiations. Any Politician  or General who tries, will be quickly lustrated.

    They also can't call a halt in the "ATO", also known as The Civil War, because they have the remains of 12 Brigades trapped and encircled in the Cauldron, and at the Lugansk and Donesk Airports, running out of food, water, ammunition, (they are already out of fuel), and those forces would have to be abandoned.

    They have already started their third Mobilization, as their recent offensive is stalled and they are running out of cannon fodder.

    They also have to prevent any independent investigation at the crash site, until they have had a chance to sanitize it, for obvious reasons.

  •  Don't understand this point (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sunbro, IndieGuy, Lawrence, chmood
    Looks like the pressure is on the rebels--and to a lesser extent, Kiev--to show some basic decency.
    What in your view should Kiev be doing to show some basic decency with respect to the mining of the crash site?

    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

    by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 05:33:18 PM PDT

    •  Stop the ethnic cleansing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      louisprandtl, fran1

      Also, stop the forced drafting of Ukranians in the west to die in their Orwellian "anti-terrorist operation":

      https://www.youtube.com/...

      Those both seems like morally decent things to do, at least to me.

      •  What ethnic cleansing? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fcvaguy, Just Bob, ER Doc

        Do you have any proof of that or are you just another one of those lefties who reflexively runs to defend the Soviet Union without realizing that it is now a quasi-fascist Russia?

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 06:55:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Over 100,000 ethnically Russian Ukranians (0+ / 0-)

          have fled the country, and Kiev's forces are bombing civilian population centers.

          http://online.wsj.com/...

          I just wrote a diary on this.

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          •  and according to your same article (0+ / 0-)

            54,000 refugees fled to other parts of Ukraine, presumably ethnic Ukrainians.

            How many thousand Ukrainian and Tatars have left Crimea?

            http://www.economist.com/...

            Is it fair to call all this "ethnic cleansing"?

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:08:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  2 things (0+ / 0-)

              1) Just because the refugees fled west doesn't mean they support the anti-terrorist operation, and that they weren't fleeing the same government artillery and bombs that the ethnic Russians are running from.

              2) No, the Crimean example is not ethnic cleansing because they aren't fleeing violence designed to make them leave.

              Also, according to your article, 2,000 left Crimea after it's annexation. That's slightly less than 2% of the 110,000 refugees. That number, by the way, is only likely to grow. The anti-terrorist operation has only grown in intensity since the MH17 crash.

              •  ..... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Just Bob

                Why would ethnic Russians flee to West Ukraine, that hotbed of Svoboda?

                Also, there aren't precise numbers available for the number of Ukrainians and Tatars that have fled Crimea. The 2,000 number you cite is just the number of Tatars that have settled in the Ukrainian town of Lviv. There are thousands more. 600 have even resettled to Poland:

                http://www.dw.de/...

                I think you have a loose definition of "ethnic cleansing". People have fled from Crimea for the same reasons they are fleeing from eastern Ukraine. And ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians are fleeing Donbast for the same reasons - its not safe - its a war zone.

                And, if you look at the link above, the numbers you cited in your diary about ethnic Russians fleeing to Russia exceeding 100,000 has been cited by the UNHCR as being more accurately about 10,000.

                Are the Ukrainians right to call what they are doing an "anti-terrorist operation"? I think its propaganda, not any worse than the propaganda coming from Moscow. And, I think its a proven fact that the leaders of the "rebel forces" aren't even ethnic Russian Ukrainians. In interviews, they openly admit they aren't and that they are former Russian military from Moscow and veterans of other Russian wars in Chechnya, Transnistria, and Georgia.

                Where did those missiles come from that shot down and killed all the people on MH-17?

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:43:21 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Really? They're getting bombed in Crimea? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fran1

                  Bullshit. Ethnic cleansing requires violence and there's been none in Crimea.

                  I never said the people fleeing west were ethnic Russians: I said they were fleeing the anti-terrorist operation. There isn't a separation between ethnic Ukranians and ethnic Russians in the East, they live in the same cities. Bombs don't discriminate based on ethnicity.

                  Also, total fabrication on what the UN says. From the article:

                  According to the United Nations, 110,000 Ukrainian refugees have gone to Russia since the start of the year and 54,000 more have left their homes and moved elsewhere in Ukraine.
                  You're quoting the Russian ministry's figures, and as the article points out the vast majority of refugees probably haven't registered with them.

                  In order to know where the missile came from, we first have to know who fired it. And as you know, if you read my diary, that is far from settled.

                  •  ethnic cleansing requires intiimidation (0+ / 0-)

                    When a Tatar gives up his property and everything he owns, his heritage, his homeland and moves, are you really going to tell him he wasn't "ethnically cleansed"?

                    I don't fabricate:

                    The United Nations Refugee Agency (UNHCR) in Geneva said a little over 10,000 Ukrainians had been displaced by the fighting.
                    http://www.dw.de/...

                    I think you should try to get a more balanced view of whats happening in Ukraine. Ukraine is a sovereign country recognized as such by every other country in the world. It has a right to self-determination and to make its own decisions about its future.

                    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                    by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:09:20 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  The UNHCR dated June 27 reports the below: (0+ / 0-)
                  Since the start of the year around 110,000 Ukrainians have arrived in Russia, and 750 have requested asylum in Poland, Belarus, Czech Republic and Romania. Of those in Russia only 9,600 have requested asylum. Most people are seeking other forms of legal stay, often we are told because of concerns about complications or reprisals in case of return to Ukraine.
                  http://www.unhcr.org/...

                  This was way before the intensive bombing of Donetsk and Luhansk started. Now Human Rights Watch is reporting that US supported Kiev troops are firing Grad rockets which are killing civilians and then lying about it.
                  http://www.unhcr.org/...

        •  Also, nice red baiting, Joeseph McCarthy (0+ / 0-)
        •  Do you have proof (0+ / 0-)

          or are you just one of those neocons who reflexively defends US aggression and war mongering no matter how wrong it is?

          The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:37:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Links to ethnic cleansing? (0+ / 0-)

        or forced drafts?

        Also, I'm not sure that even if that were true, that it would cause mines to be removed from the crash site, keeping parents, husbands and wives from retrieving the bodies of their loved ones.

        I suppose if Ukraine completely surrendered its sovereignty to Putin, that may do the trick.

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:03:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  See above. Also, there is zero evidence of mines (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Duckmg

          outside of the government in Kiev's claims, which has consistently lied and misrepresented the facts since it came into power.

          •  Ya, just took a gander at your diary (0+ / 0-)
            Indeed, one of the first acts of the new Svoboda dominated Ukranian government
            Seriously??  That line reads like RT propaganda. Svoboda has about 2% of the seats in parliament. On the other hand, its cousin in the UK, UKIP, has about 5% of the seats in UK's parliament.

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:13:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And yet it controls the army and the security (0+ / 0-)

              services, as well as holding the Deputy Prime Minsteriship. Pretty weird for a party with "2%" (actually 8%) of the seats, isn't it?

              http://www.channel4.com/...

              •  and... (0+ / 0-)

                3 of 9 cabinet positions were occupied by Svoboda including, initially, the Minister of Defense. However, your article is seriously dated. Valeriy Heletey is now Minister of Defense and is not a member of Right Sector or Svoboda. And, just last week, Yatsuniuk's government resigned after Svoboda walked out of the coalition.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                And, I won't quibble over the 2% vs 8% of seats occupied by Svoboda. The point remains. Its about the same percentage of seats UKIP occupies in the UK, and the National Front occupies in France. In European parliamentary governments, right wing parties are par for the course. Hyping them is Russian propaganda.

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 07:55:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So having the effective power to dissolve the (0+ / 0-)

                  government means they're less powerful? And Svoboda is likely to gain in power in the new government. Why do you think they walked out?

                  And you're right, Ihor Tenyukh got pushed out after Russia took Crimea, I'd forgotten about that. Note, though, that he got shit canned for not being hawkish enough. The fascist parties still have enormous control over the armed forces, though, and still control their equivalent of the Justice Department.

                  That's especially troubling given that they are implicated in the Maidan sniper shootings.

                  •  The ones who have power in Ukraine (0+ / 0-)

                    are the oligarchs, just like Russia. In fact both Poroshenko and Putin are oligarchs in their own right.

                    Yatsuniuk's government was a coalition government. More than just Svoboda walked out. And, it was all over the need to cut the budget. Nobody wanted to support that. Parliaments dissolve over issues like that.

                    The fascist parties still have enormous control over the armed forces, though, and still control their equivalent of the Justice Department.
                    No proof of that claim and MoJ was Petrenko, a member of the Batkivshchyna party, not Svoboda.

                    Besides MoD, Svoboda also had Agrarian Policy/Food, and Ecology/Natural Resources. Clearly, Defense was the key role and they lost that more than a month ago.

                    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                    by fcvaguy on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:27:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Also, I included a link to the evidence for forced (0+ / 0-)

          drafts in that comment. It's a youtube video of Ukranians burning military draft orders.

  •  A few of things (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    native, JayFarquharson, dfarrah, fran1

    1) The fact that all we are seeing is "circumstantial evidence" is a pretty clear indication that the US State Department is full of shit. We have satillites over Ukraine. We have pictures of the Buk launch. Why aren't they being shown, like pictures of Soviet nukes were shown to the world during the Cuban Missile Crisis?

    2) "To a lesser extent Kiev" is bullshit. Kiev is the one who is waging the military campaign keeping investigators away from the crash site. They are the ones who have continually refused to enact a cease-fire.

    3) The rebels have said they are willing to negotiate, actually. The Russians, also, have been consistently pushing for months for Ukraine to adopt a more federated structure to allow the provinces more autnomy, and to retain their close economic ties to Russia. These ties keep the industrial sector of East Ukraine functioning, and is the reason why they are so opposed to joining the EU.

    •  Why does our corporate lapdog media (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dfarrah, fran1

      ignore all this?

      I know nobody believes our media anymore, but the propaganda is really getting too obvious.

      •  The US has no history, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        fran1

        And no history of consequences.

        There are always diaries on here, like The Businessman's Plot, CONTELINPRO, Northwoods, Watergate, Iran-Contra, S&L,

        Basically, because the US never looks deep, brushes the dirt under the rug, and at most, slaps a few wrists, every decade or so, the same corruption, the same scandals, the same propaganda resurfaces, often with the very same actors involved.

        For example, back in the day, Progressives and Dirty F@Cking Hippies pointed out that the Kosovo Liberation Army was a drug gang engaged in terrorism, murder and ethnic cleansing,....

        But at the time, to the Administration and the MSM, they had to be polished up as Freedom Fighters for the plan of breaking Serbia to go forward.

        Now of course, that warrants are going out for their arrest, blanks and utter silence from the US.

        In 20 years time, when the Current crop of Ukraine Nationalists are standing in the dock at The Hague, the most we will ever get is surprised claims that " how could anybody know there were Nazi's there?".

        Break a bank, destroy a country, try to stage a military coup, murder Americans, doesn't matter, there are no consequences.

        Consequences are only for the little people.

      •  Well, the 'progressives' (0+ / 0-)

        now swear by the same media that they usually denigrate.

        So much for being a reality based, unbiased site.

        The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

        by dfarrah on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:43:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The Nation today published an article (0+ / 0-)

    that is quite contrary to the assertions made in your diary..hmm ..what a quandary..

    http://m.thenation.com/...

    •  Then there's this: (0+ / 0-)

      I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

      by Just Bob on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:19:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just so you don't miss it... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cville townie

        http://www.slate.com/...

        In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev’s perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of Glasnost: Interviews With Gorbachev’s Reformers, whose subjects—officials, journalists, and intellectuals—were all proponents of top-down change to bring about a kinder, gentler Soviet socialism. Those dreams ended in a rude awakening in 1991 with the demise of the Soviet Union.
        Somehow I just can't picture Gorbachev and Putin in the same frame.

        I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

        by Just Bob on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:23:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That article summed up: (0+ / 0-)

          "Russia bad"

          Yes, we know Russia is bad (thanks mostly to us destroying its economy in the 1990s, by the way). The question is, is ethnic cleansing going on, and is the Kiev government dominated by fascists? Yes, on both counts. The Salon doesn't even die the death toll or number of refugees; she just says they aren't war crimes because the UN hasn't called them that yet.

          Which is absurd. Either something is a war crime or it isn't. It doesn't become one when an international body calls it one.

          Oh, and she tries to repeat the propaganda that the unarmed civilians in the Odessa Trade Union building burned themselves to death, which is disgusting. But that's part for the course.

        •  I'm glad you quoted Ms Cathy Young, formerly (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cville townie

          Ekaterina Jung. If i had to assess Ms Vandan Heuvel or Prof Stephen Cohen's politics via a conservative or a libertarian point of view, i would visit Redstate or Cato institute.

          Ms. Young in her words:

          My politics can be described as libertarian/conservative -- leaning more libertarian on some issues and more conservative on others.

          http://www.cathyyoung.net/...

          •  Now I'm confused (0+ / 0-)

            Are you and Cleverer Handle the same person? How is it that I reply to one and the other responds?

            The Slate article has links you can follow for their fact checking. Do you wish to question the facts or would you rather engage in character assassination?

            I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

            by Just Bob on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 08:54:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Very interesting. You quote a well known (0+ / 0-)

              Conservative/libertarian to defame a leftist professor in DKos. Then you are indicating that i might be a sockpuppet!! Who is indulging in charcater assasination?

              •  Status check (0+ / 0-)

                I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

                by Just Bob on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 02:05:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes i just saw Cleverer Handle was a zombie. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kharma

                  What am i supposed to do with it? You haven't replied to my question. You have been here long enough to know any comment can have multiple replies which can result in multiple threads.

                  •  Is this going to go on for days? (0+ / 0-)

                    We have a difference of opinion. You seem to think Putin is a leftist and therefore defend him while I think he's trying to reestablish the Soviet Union with complete disregard for the national sovereignty of former client states.

                    I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

                    by Just Bob on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 04:39:26 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Where did i defend Putin? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      kharma, cville townie

                      Putin is not leftist but a rightwing dictator, hardly worthy of any support. Unfortunately Ukraine is one of the pawns in the global chessboard that is in the crosshair of Russia and US/western powerplay.

                      •  It was indirectly. (0+ / 0-)

                        You're defending Stephen Cohen who is defending Putin. The Nation has done many good things. This wasn't one of them as evidenced by the Slate fact checking.

                        You're also dealing in personalities and stereotypes rather than arguing the facts. All things left are not automatically good and libertarians are not always wrong.

                        Perhaps you should read that Slate article slowly, carefully, and with an open mind. Perhaps you could even follow the embedded links.

                        In the meantime, please get off my back. You're a load and half. Go find someone else to fight with. I'm much too old to play that game.

                        I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

                        by Just Bob on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 09:24:23 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Walter Mitty or Just Bob? Amazing fact free zone. (0+ / 0-)

                          1. You chose to reply to my initial comment to the diary.
                          2. You quoted a known self proclaimed conservative/liberatarian writer to defame two well known leftist commenters.
                          3. Then you slandered me by publicly falsely claiming that i was a sockpuppet of a banned zombie.
                          4. Following which you claimed i was supporting Putin.
                          5. Thereafter you shifted your claim that i was indirectly supporting Putin.
                          6 Lastly you proclaimed ( falsely again if i may add) that I was after your back, fighting with you.

                          Despite your total lack of civility and basic netiquette, i have been extremely polite with you. Rest assured i've no interest in your fact free drivels. Goodbye Walter.

  •  Surprising source (0+ / 0-)

    Not every American agrees with Kiev, but that David Stockman disagrees with the US position is somewhat surprising, at least to me.

    On Dominoes, WMDs And Putin’s “Aggression”: Imperial Washington Is Intoxicated By Another Big Lie | David Stockman's Contra Corner

    Puleese! The Kiev government is a dysfunctional, bankrupt usurper that is deploying western taxpayer money to wage a vicious war on several million Russian-speaking citizens in the Donbas—-the traditional center of greater Russia’s coal, steel and industrial infrastructure. It is geographically part of present day Ukraine by historical happenstance. For better or worse, it was Stalin who financed its forced draft industrialization during the 1930s; populated it with Russian speakers to insure political reliability; and expelled the Nazi occupiers at immeasurable cost in blood and treasure during WWII. Indeed, the Donbas and Russia have been Saimese twins economically and politically not merely for decades, but centuries.

    On the other hand, Kiev’s marauding army and militias would come to an instant halt without access to the $35 billion of promised aid from the IMF, EU and US treasury. Obama just needs to say “stop”. That’s it. The civil war would quickly end, permitting the US, Russia and the warring parties of the Ukraine to hold a peace conference and work out the details of a separation agreement.

    Read the European view at the European Tribune

    by fran1 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 11:42:01 PM PDT

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