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It's now undeniable that Russia is openly invading eastern Ukraine with thousands of troops and heavy weaponry.

TPM (from the AP):

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/...

BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/...

Al-Jazeera:

http://www.aljazeera.com/...

I was struck by this passage from that TPM article:

Novoazovsk, which lies along the road connecting Russia to the Russia-annexed Crimean Peninsula, had come under shelling for three days, with the rebels entering it on Wednesday. This area had previously escaped the fighting that has engulfed areas to the north, and the only way rebels could have reached the southeast was coming through Russia.

The new southeastern front raised fears that the separatists are seeking to create a land link between Russia and Crimea. If successful, it could give them or Russia control over the entire Sea of Azov and the gas and mineral riches that energy experts believe it contains. Ukraine already lost roughly half its coastline, several major ports and significant Black Sea mineral rights in March when Russia annexed Crimea.

n Mariupol, a city of 450,000 about 30 kilometers (20 miles) to the west of Novoazovsk, a brigade of Ukrainian forces arrived at the airport on Wednesday, while deep trenches were dug a day earlier on the city's edge.

(my emphasis)

Ever since Putin invaded and annexed Crimea in March 2014, I've been saying it is inevitable that he will seize enough of eastern Ukraine to create a land bridge between Russia and Crimea.

This prediction was roundly mocked by the large pro-Putin contingent here.

It now seems likely I was right.

But for Putin to accomplish this, he needs to do more than take medium-sized towns.  He would need to conquer the large city of Mariupol, which is heavily defended.

I was a bit surprised to see no diary on this so far today.

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Comment Preferences

  •  In other news today, I saw part of an (17+ / 0-)

    interview on Al-Jazeera America with Palestinian negotiator Dr. Saeb Erekat, and he said something about Hamas, Fatah, and the PLO having just created some kind of unity government.  I don't have time to track that down myself today, but I hope someone will do a diary about this.

    Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
    Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

    by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:34:16 AM PDT

  •  At least they're next door; we go half way (16+ / 0-)

    around the world to kill people for nothing.

    I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

    by a2nite on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:35:30 AM PDT

    •  Is it ok for your neighbors to attack you? Is so, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Capt Crunch

      I could give your neighbors a call.

      Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

      by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:28:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So I take it you supported the Iraq invasion (0+ / 0-)

      since you don't seem to care about Ukraine invading its neighbors.

      Or you were against the Iraq invasion in which case you're vehemently against this obvious invasion of Ukraine.

      If you were against the invasion of Iraq but you don't care or tacitly support this invasion that would make you a hyp . . . hippo . . . I'm not sure of the word. Maybe you could help me out.

      It really bothers me when people on the left won't speak out against obvious suffering because they think America sucks too. OK, America did stupid things in the past. Russia is starting wars and getting innocent people killed.

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:25:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What to do now ? (17+ / 0-)

    Maybe NATO should respond by setting up more bases along Russia's borders to contain Putin's aggression ? Phooey on the US/NATO's Neo Cold War.

    The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

    by Azazello on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:37:17 AM PDT

    •  Do you know the story of (7+ / 0-)

      the horse and the barn door ?

      "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

      by indycam on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:44:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah. I heard that Putin locked the barn door (8+ / 0-)

        and the horse starved. Is that the one to which you are referring?

        Voting is the means by which the public is distracted from the realities of power and its exercise.

        by Anne Elk on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:01:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Putin light the barn on fire (11+ / 0-)

          and blocked the door. But it's AOK, because he stands up to the evil USA. Or something.

          •  Putin is a despicable thug, (4+ / 0-)

            but I still don't get the 'wisdom' of expanding NATO all around Russia's borders? It doesn't seem to be working and, since we don't have a viable deterrent to Russia, perhaps we should reconsider our approach?

            •  Seriously? (18+ / 0-)
              I still don't get the 'wisdom' of expanding NATO all around Russia's borders
              You don't understand why Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, and Romania would want NATO's protection after being occupied by Russian troops for 45 years after WWII?

              Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

              by bear83 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:58:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Especially poor Poland (7+ / 0-)

                Which was screwed over by England and France in 1939, then the Russians in 1945.

                This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

                by Ellid on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:02:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ER Doc, ChadmanFL, Tony Situ, dclawyer06

                Can't speak for him, but I think he means the wisdom from out standpoint. Clearly, its a good deal for those nations. That said, even if it is unwise for us, it is legal and Putin's actions are not.

              •  The situation is Ukraine has NOTHING to do with (10+ / 0-)

                NATO expansion. That was never on the table. It may be part of Putin's paranoid fantasies, and parroted by Putin supporters here, but it was never being proposed by anyone (and probably never will be).

                Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

                by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:24:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "Putin supporters here"? I was under the (4+ / 0-)

                  impression that the legions of those swooning over Putin on these shores were all RW neocon warmongers whose juices flow when "strong leaders" take off their shirts and bully anyone who stands in their way. You know, the ones who go on Fox to proclaim their wish that "if only Obama were more like Putin" (but who of course really dread that possibility).

                  WHAT Putin supporters here? Really? Are you attributing to those who are realists about U.S. missteps and misadventures a love of Putin? That sounds like a pretty huge leap to me.

                  "We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. But we can't have both." - Justice Louis Brandeis

                  by flitedocnm on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:49:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I should add: my comment is also directed at our (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ChadmanFL, rhutcheson

                    diarest, who refers to

                    ... the large pro-Putin contingent here...
                    Again, I'll ask, really? Maybe I've been asleep; I'll admit that I haven't read every diary and every comment on Russia and Ukraine over the past few months. So, please educate me about what I've missed. Links?

                    And if there have been comments that laud Putin, are they really from a "large contingent" of kossacks, or from a small group of trolls?

                    "We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. But we can't have both." - Justice Louis Brandeis

                    by flitedocnm on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:55:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  There are legions of Putin supporters here as you (6+ / 0-)

                    will clearly see if you look in the current comments or practically any diary on Ukraine that has ever been posted on dKos. The Putin troll are out in force.

                    And, yes, the U.S. has "misteps" (or by U.S., that typically means Bush did bad things at some point in the past). But, be that at it may, it doesn't remotely excuse or even really explain what Putin has done in Ukraine the past few months. I don't think I am being the least bit unfair to call people Putin Defenders when they constantly attack Ukraine--often using verbatim Putin propaganda about them all being "fascists"--and when they constantly invent excuses for Putin's invasion, annexation, and covert terrorist operations in Ukraine.

                    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

                    by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:04:13 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you'll see, if you pursue this line, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    CIndyCasella

                    that ultimately, all opposition to US intervention in this situation will come down to the accusation of 'Putin lover', thereby ending the discussion.

                    Play chess for the Kossacks on Chess.com. Join the site, then the group at http://www.chess.com/groups/view/kossacks.

                    by rhutcheson on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:06:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's preposterous. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tony Situ

                      The diary says nothing about U.S. intervention, and nobody is advocating that in the comments.  Classic straw man.

                      People here have used lots of ways to describe those who are echoing Russian propaganda.  I think the way I did it in the diary--"pro-Putin contingent"-- is less inflammatory than some variants, and dead-center accurate.

                      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:55:44 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Putin fanboys can be found on the (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Timaeus, jake321, TheHalfrican, cryonaut

                    American far right and far left, though for different reasons.  His far right fans admire his decisiveness(i.e. his dictatorial powers) and has far left fans admire his standing up to the evil West.

                    BTW, a significant portion of the American far left desires strongman rule every bit as ugh as the far right does (despite suing President Obama for being unitary executive).  Such is evidenced by much of the purist left's love for Hugo Chávez, even to the point of defending his crackdowns on free press, free speech, voting rights, property rights.

                  •  they're better at Disinformation than the Soviets (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    instead of the crude, laughable total fantasyland propaganda the Soviets became infamous for (and almost destroyed the world with because the leaders started BELIEVING it), Putin's Russia has a 21st century media infrastructure that expertly exploits legitimate discontent with U.S foreign policy hypocrisy & imperialism by presenting a "plausible" alternative explanation for each act of Russian Imperialist aggression where, hey, it's all Amurka's fault!

                    They have a army of both sockpuppets and useful idiots ready to loudly parrot this RTnews narrative on both Right AND Left wing websites in the West.

                    "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

                    by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 02:43:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  That's not quite an answer (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus

                Of course, those countries want our protection. The question is whether they'll get it if push comes to shove. The other question is whether expansion might bring about the push/shove marriage a lot sooner....validating Putin's argument about NATO wanting to encircle Russia.

                Personally, I think we need to do something to deter or stop Russian expansionism, but it's not clear to me that anything we can do will have any impact..unless we're willing to fight Russia, which I doubt.

                Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

                by FischFry on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:24:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Come on now (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pluto, ChadmanFL, native, Jim P, CIndyCasella

                40% of the world military spending is done by the US. The next 5 highest spending countries are our allies in Europe. Your talking about using dynamite to get rid of a ant hill. If you think Russia is a threat to Europe I have a bridge to sell you

                •  Clearly you know little about history (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus, Capt Crunch

                  How many times has Russia occupied the Baltic states and Poland? They have a legitimate fear of their big neighbor to the East.

                  Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

                  by bear83 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:24:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You Joking? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ChadmanFL, CIndyCasella

                    Clearly you don't know that circumstances change and that time is not static. It's called risk benefit analysis MR. Historian. Russia is in no position to invade as it lacks the means to confront a SUBSTANTIALLY better equipped adversary. The U.S and Nato countries have spent over 800 billion last year to Russia's 83 bill. It's called a suicide mission. Again using dynamite to kill a ant hill. You got to be one of those people who are afraid of their own shadow.

                    •  Tyrants do not follow neutral cost-benefit (3+ / 0-)

                      analyses.

                      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:00:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Ohh give me a brake will ya (0+ / 0-)

                        Ya Putin's gonna go on a suicide mission for little ole Poland and lativa and lithahania. Then tell me this why hasn't he done it sooner than later? He's in no better position now than in any other time he's been in power. I guess you think James K. Polk was a tyrant. Damn you're  goofy.

                        •  He took Crimea (5+ / 0-)

                          and now he's working on a chunk of Ukraine.

                          If not for NATO, who's to say he wouldn't have gone into little Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia to "protect" Russian minorities there, too.

                          That's why all these former Soviet satellite states wanted into NATO to begin with - to keep from being re-occupied.

                          Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

                          by bear83 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:51:22 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  interesting you mention protecting (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            CIndyCasella

                            Russian minorities in the Baltics. You see Russian minorities haven't faired to well there (the Russian language is out flawed there) but the main difference is Latvians and Lithuanians are not killing Russian civilians. Ukrainian military action has killed over 2,000 people two thirds have been civilians. Again for the last time NATO is present no need to expand bases, hell Bulgaria, check republic, Slovakia, and Romania don't want us there anyway ( they're all heated about  brussw/U.S killing the south stream) Remember the Alamo? What was to stop James K Plulk from taking all of central America?

                          •  The Russian language is "out flawed" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            bear83

                            everywhere, as is your English.

                            Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                            Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                            by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:57:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  dude atocorret what can I tell ya. you start a (0+ / 0-)

                            Word on these small ass screens and to save time you point to the word that pops up, sometimes you hit the wrong word. It happens. Ga ahead you can make your point about the topic at hand now.

                      •  Yes, they most certainly do (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        akze29, CIndyCasella

                        The banality of evil and all that. This is the problem here, this pretend world where Putin is the most evil ever and insane and irrational to boot.

                        That's just not supported by the facts.

                        My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                        by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:06:42 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Pat Buchanan was right about this one. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                I can understand their plight.......Russia really is a crapsack world imho.....but....is it really worth it and are we really willing to bleed for that land? Nope. And what happens to NATO when the lie behind Article 5 is exposed?

                The Isolationist PaleoCon types really were the only ones to raise alarm about this during the 90s and 00s.

                "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

                by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 02:28:45 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  No i DON'T get it, (0+ / 0-)

                particularly when the US is totally UNABLE to secure any of those countries.

                Wake up.

                •  Let me add, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  if our Russia policy is working so well, why is Putin able to cross in/out of Ukraine with impunity?

                  Is that America's brilliant strategy?
                  GMFB

                  •  Because the US doesn't really give a shit (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dclawyer06

                    about Ukraine, and certainly not Eastern Ukraine. Something needs to be done, or the US will "look weak," but the reality is that the US doesn't care about Russian expansion that much.

                    My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:00:30 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Looks to me like an increasingly, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AoT

                      dangerous game of chicken.

                      And to what purpose? America doesn't have enough problems? We're going to encircle Russia to preserve the peace but, by doing so, go to war needlessly?

                      That's a strange diplomacy.

                      I don't get it. And I don't get how this makes me a Putin fanboy?

                      •  European Fascists are coming into Ukraine (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        dclawyer06

                        on both sides at this point. Golden Dawn, a Greek fascist party, almost certainly has folks their in the pro-Russian militia.

                        It looks like it could be a religious split Orthodox and Catholicism/Protestantism. Or at least religion as an mobilizing factor. Golden Dawn certainly makes a big deal about defending their Orthodox brothers in their statements.

                        Not that I disagree with anything you say, I just think some folks are missing the deeper forces here at work.

                        My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                        by AoT on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:24:03 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't doubt that at all, (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AoT

                          But I still don't get the policy.

                          It's like stationing nuclear submarines in Taiwan to keep the peace with China(and calling any who criticize Xi Jinping's fanboys).
                          ....................
                          But that's enough for me, I know these Ukraine diaries get nasty but I was hoping for a somewhat more enlightened debate than I found.

                          Putin fanboy on the left?
                          Gag.

      •  NATO expansion, not Putin's "aggression," (19+ / 0-)

        is what precipitated the whole thing, and if you've been following the issue you know that NATO's commander has already called for even more NATO bases.

        The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

        by Azazello on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:02:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  NATO expanded peacefully and without coercion (29+ / 0-)

          And Putin's actions can only be described as aggression. Even Putin's counsel members are calling it an invasion.

          Putin has acted over and over as an aggressor, and stated a longing for the USSR of old - or at least some Russian Federation equivalent. He doesn't need NATO expansion to justify his desires.

          Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt

          by Phoenix Rising on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:15:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  NATO's expansion was voluntary. (25+ / 0-)

          The nations whose governments chose to join NATO did so voluntarily, exercising their national sovereignty. They had their reasons for wanting to join, and they made the decision.

          To suggest that those nations should not be able to join NATO because Russia sees it as an act of aggression is to suggest that those nations aren't really sovereign, but remain Russian satellite states who should have to run all of their foreign policy decisions past Moscow.

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:29:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Treating military expansion as non-aggressive (10+ / 0-)

            just because the places so expanded agreed to have NATO there is rather naive. Moving weapons closer to Russia is aggressive.

            If China put some missiles in Mexico you can sure as hell bet it would be seen as aggressive.

            My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

            by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:34:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you misread me. (17+ / 0-)
              Treating military expansion as non-aggressive just because the places so expanded agreed to have NATO there is rather naive.
              I'm not saying it's non-aggressive. Of course it's aggressive. Many of those nations joined NATO precisely because they wanted a major force on their side to counterbalance Russia's history of meddling in their affairs as satellite states or (in the case of countries like Estonia or Lithuania) simply annexing them.

              What I'm saying is that if we truly acknowledge those nations' sovereignty, we'll respect their right to make that decision to join NATO, rather than suggesting that they should still be treated as Russian satellite states with Moscow getting a veto over their foreign policy decisions.

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:41:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When you talk about it as Russia seeing it as (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dizzydean

                aggressive then you give the impression that it isn't actually aggressive. There may be reasons for it, but it seems to me that speaking of it only in terms of the rights of various countries and people doesn't properly situate it in geopolitical terms.

                My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:52:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  When I talk about it... (11+ / 0-)

                  ...as Russia seeing it as aggressive, I'm talking about whose opinions should matter and whose opinions shouldn't matter.

                  The sovereign states of Eastern Europe—including the former Soviet-occupied states and Soviet satellite states—chose to join an alliance for mutual defense against a nation that has a long history of subjugating them whenever it was geopolitically convenient.

                  Those of us who respect their sovereignty should be willing to tell Russia that their opinion of those nations' choices is completely and utterly irrelevant.

                  To suggest that Eastern European nations should not have joined NATO because Russia wouldn't like it is to suggest that they shouldn't really be sovereign at all, and that they should be treated as Russian satellite states whose foreign-policy choices have to get approval from Moscow.

                  "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                  by JamesGG on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:27:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I didn't they shouldn't have joined (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    native

                    I said that there was aggressive expansion. That's not an opinion, NATO was in fact aggressively expanding. You or I might agree with the reasons, but that doesn't change that it happened.

                    I have never said, nor do I think, that NATO expansion absolves Russia of any responsibility for it's land grabs.

                    My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                    by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:05:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  There's a confusion of concepts here. (9+ / 0-)

                  Something can be threatening to Russia's interests (as the Russian government see them) without being military aggression.

                  These are sovereign nations with a very legitimate concern (based on long history) about Russian intentions towards them. It's one hell of a stretch to call their effort to secure themselves from potential Russian aggression as itself being "aggression." By that logic, any kind of defensive preparations whatsoever are aggressive.

                  "With all this manure around, there has to be a pony somewhere!" - Count Piotr Vorkosigan

                  by jrooth on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:58:07 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  NATO is not a country (19+ / 0-)

              AoT, it's pretty clear that the former satellites have interest from having protection from their old oppressor.

              •  Indeed, which made the aggressive expansion (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gjohnsit, native

                easier, a lot easier. Being easy and fast doesn't make it a good idea.

                And at this point the conquest of Ukraine seems pretty assured, at least the Russian side of it.

                And of course, in the mean time the US went to bat again for Israel and it's land grabs. So I think Russia knows it's good to go. Europe can't drop gas imports because it's already in a depression, so there won't be any meaningful responses to Russia's action unless you're a NATO state. So now Russia has a sharp dividing line, or will soon enough.

                My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:56:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So let me get this straight (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  charlatan, Timaeus, Tony Situ

                  Military intervention is beyond the pale if it's done by the US or Israel (I actually agree with you that Israel and the US were wrong in Gaza/Iraq).

                  But the EXACT SAME thing, if done by Russia, is something that's quite obviously understood and justified because . . . they oppose America?

                  If you opposed the Iraq war you should oppose Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. If Russia is justified then why don't they come out and openly claim this war and explain the reasons why. The answer is they know it's illegal.

                  Even if our invasion of Iraq means that the US government has no standing to criticize Russia, that doesn't mean that US private citizen progressives can't criticize it. The fact that so many progressives seem to either not care or tacitly (or openly) side with Putin is extremely worrisome.

                  At this rate we really can't call for Iraq War war criminals to be prosecuted since we'd be hypocrites because so many of seem to tacitly support Russia.

                  When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                  by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:56:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh good lord (0+ / 0-)

                    Nope, it's not justified, neither are Israels actions.

                    And seriously, what Israel is doing is far worse. But again, that doesn't justify anyone else's actions. But morality and politics don't much intersect. Russia points to Ferguson as they do this. And of course, Israel and the Palestinians are on everyone's mind so who needs to point.

                    At this rate we really can't call for Iraq War war criminals to be prosecuted since we'd be hypocrites because so many of seem to tacitly support Russia.
                    Because there were totally going to be prosecutions. But if you promise me I'll get a pony then I promise to shut up.

                    My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                    by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:08:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Russia's conflict in Ukraine actually killed (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Timaeus, charlatan

                      more people than Israel's actions in Gaza but I agree that Israel is totally wrong.

                      I'm tired of hearing that Ukraine should be ignored because of what Israel is doing in Gaza. We ignore Israeli war crimes way too much but ignoring Russian crimes in Ukraine isn't going to suddenly change US foreign policy.

                      Russia points to Ferguson as they do this.
                      And it wouldn't matter if people on the left didn't buy this argument and start saying that we can't say anything about Russia's invasion because the US sucks for various reasons.

                      In Russia they beat and kill LGBT people in the streets. Reporters are beaten and murdered. Political opponents are poisoned with radioactive chemicals in Europe, jailed in Russia and killed wherever possible.

                      There is absolutely no reason to say "Russia is kind of bad for xxx but FERGUSON" because the two things are not related in any way.

                      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                      by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:28:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Your comments in this diary are great. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        charlatan, PhillyJeff

                        Write diaries.

                        Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                        Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                        by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:20:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks, I don't really have a ton of time (0+ / 0-)

                          Stuff like this just makes me upset.

                          Unless there is some massive conspiracy going on that includes the Russian army and Ukrainian Separatists who themselves claim Russia is arming them and that Russian troops are fighting with them it's absurd that these people try to deny it.

                          When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                          by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 07:12:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  That's an important point! They don't openly (0+ / 0-)

                    proclaim what they're doing, because they know it's illegal.  The sneakiness of the invasion of Ukraine, since last February, is really amazing.

                    I hate U.S. war-mongering, imperialism, and fascism--but one thing you have to say for the U.S. is that if it plans to conquer a sovereign nation like Iraq, it goes to the United Nations and does its best to make an open case (deceitful as it was).

                    Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                    Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                    by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:19:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  just as (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ER Doc, Timaeus

                our commenters desire to see Russia return to oppressing them.

            •  I think though, that you have to make a (15+ / 0-)

              distinction between aggression and security.  NATO expansion was not necessarily to expand a US presence as it was to build a security arrangement for the protection of those European countries who had their fates decided by larger powers.  

              Perhaps its a point of view issue, but given the history of recent Russian aggression in Eastern Europe--say starting from the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact--the nations involved would very much welcome being brought into the NATO umbrella.

              And remember, Mexico does not fear a US invasion (anymore)  therefore so it does not seek outside allies to help secure it.  The Eastern European countries don't see Russia in the same light...

              To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

              by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:45:31 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I am so relieved (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ER Doc

              to see you are in full support of the Monroe Doctrine. A new day for the New Left!  

              •  I'm not supporting anything (0+ / 0-)

                I'm telling you what would happen if China put missiles in Mexico. I don't have any control over what happens in that respect, but that's how it is.

                I'm pointing out that Russia is doing this because it can, and the US is doing it's level best to support Russia through US hypocrisy. I mean, right after Israel kills all those people? Come on.

                My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:12:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Seeking security guarantees (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus

                  is within a country's soveriegn rights and it is hardly aggression to defend itself.

                  As you might notice, NATO is more than the US, and the Baltic states and Poland have their own independent relationships with the powers of western Europe.  Sure, Russia might not like the fact that Estonia seeks defensive help, but that doesn't make it aggression for Estonia to dothat.  What's next, arguing that an invasion of Estonia would be justified because they had the nerve to promote closer military ties with the UK and France?  Sheesh.

            •  Why do you always frame the discussion (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              as 'putting missiles next to Russia'.

              As far as I know, there has been no talk about placing a US base, missile or otherwise, in the Ukraine.

              Do you have any evidence otherwise?

              Your repetition of this point seems pretty odd, IMO.

              •  I didn't say anything about putting missiles (0+ / 0-)

                next to Russia.

                Moving weapons closer to Russia is aggressive.
                Are you saying we didn't move any weapons closer?

                This whole "it was a defensive advance" thing is nonsense.

                If you think it was a good thing and necessary then explain why aggression was necessary instead of just pretending like it didn't happen.

                My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:12:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You made the comparisons (0+ / 0-)

                  to Russia putting missiles into Cuba, and China putting missiles into Mexico, so unless you're also indicating we're putting missiles into the Ukraine your comparison just doesn't work.

                  A better comparison would be if Cuba and Russia formed an alliance, or China and Mexico.

                  In which case no, we shouldn't invade Cuba or Mexico if this happened.

                  Agreed?

                  •  Fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                    But we have sent plenty. If China sent fighter planes to Mexico that would also be considered aggressive. Russia moving troops internally was considered aggressive, and NATO moving troops closer to Russia isn't?

                    My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                    by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:44:34 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not sure I understand. (0+ / 0-)

                      If Mexico bought fighter plans from China, again that wouldn't justify an invasion, even if they were using the Chinese planes to battle rebels in Sonora who for some reason wanted to join the US.

                      I sure hope you're not suggesting that Russia moving troops into the Ukraine is 'internal'. ;)

                      Maybe we're just talking about circles here, but perhaps if you gave an example of what you think would justify the US invading Mexico, and then relating it to what's happening in the Ukraine, I might better understand your position.

          •  YOu don't understand (7+ / 0-)

            Eastern Europeans don't have national soverignty and are not allowed in the left's world view to take action to protect themselves.  They are merely mindless marionettes (a kind of subspecies really) that is incapable of independent thought and respond only to the whims of the US military industrial complex.

            Attributing independent motivations to non-Americans?  HOnestly, what are you thinking!  Next you'll be claiming they are equal human beings!

            /snark

        •  And doing more of the same thing (0+ / 0-)

          will result in the opposite outcome ?

          Little late to shut the door , iykwim .

          "please love deeply...openly and genuinely." A. M. H.

          by indycam on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:42:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  So nations aren't allowed (13+ / 0-)

          to enter into voluntary,  peaceful agreements without Putin's stamp of approval? And Putin is allowed to violate international law to veto those moves?

        •  aaaaaah! (16+ / 0-)

          the lunacy of the left is breathtaking.  Russia is the country invading its neighbors, and yet somehow NATO is to blame.

          Unbelievable how insanely naive and stupid the left has become.  

          •  I may as well say it here in this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mosesfreeman

            getting-to-be-dead diary.  It's very interesting to me to see that so many of my biggest opponents in the I/P debates (I'm STRONGLY on the P side) are completely agreeing with me on this Ukraine issue.

            I need to give more thought to that!  Probably worth an interesting meta diary.

            Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
            Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

            by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:23:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I-siders tend to support intervention (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              or barring that, at least "doing something". P-siders frequently support doing nothing, or at least keeping responses to a minimum.

              Think of prominent hawks in the US, as far as I know they are all pro-I. Non-interventionists are usually pro-P.

              … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

              by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:52:48 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          native, mosesfreeman

          BTW, Russia has suggested it wants to join NATO also.

          http://rt.com/...

          don't drone me, bro

          by BradMajors on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:51:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  NATO expansion was completely voluntary (7+ / 0-)

          by the nations involved - nations that were occupied by Soviet troops for 45 years after WWII.

          Some here seem to think Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are wayward children the West kidnapped and Putin wants to bring home, not sovereign nations with a right to determine their own way.

          Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

          by bear83 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:21:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Except that Ukraine was not joining NATO... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jds1978, Timaeus, sviscusi

          so what motivated Putin to act the moment Yanukovich fled. There was nothing on the table for Ukraine to join NATO.

          Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

          by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:27:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wasn't it a trade pact or something? (0+ / 0-)

            This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

            by Ellid on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:04:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes. There was a proposed trade pact, highly (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ellid, Timaeus, wu ming

              popular with the Ukrainian people, but rejected by the Russian puppet President, Yanukovich. After he fled (no coup force him out, he fled in the night), the government that remained had to do something and not just be paralyzed by the fact that their corrupt president had run away. So, now the new government, new President and soon to be new parliament is considering that deal. Apparently Putin feels, this justifies his invasion, annexation, and terrorist actions in Ukraine.

              Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

              by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:16:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yanukovich was not a Russian puppet (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ChadmanFL, native
                http://www.cnn.com/...

                Is Vladimir Putin really the puppet-master in Ukraine's crisis?

                Yanukovych tried to play both sides against the middle.

                "Yanukovych has played Putin against Europe and the United States quite masterfully. So there is no love lost between them and no trust there," says Eugene Rumer, who, until this month, served as U.S. national intelligence officer for Russia and Eurasia at the CIA. He's now director of the Russia and Eurasia Program at the Carnegie Endowment for Peace.

                "The quality of the discussion here in Washington has really been appalling," he adds. "A lot more has been said about Russia and Russia's role ... but it ignores the fact that Ukraine has had an independent life for the last 25 years, and this crisis is really a domestic political crisis in Ukraine. Not that the Russians haven't helped, but it is a Ukrainian domestic political crisis."

                There was no trade pact with Europe. Trade pacts will have to wait until Ukraine's financial condition is sorted out. The World Bank and IMF are calling for extensive privatization first.
                After he fled (no coup force him out, he fled in the night), the government that remained had to do something and not just be paralyzed by the fact that their corrupt president had run away.
                There were very real threats of violence to his life as there was to most of his supporters within the Ukrainian parliament.
                •  Incorrect as usual, Claudius. You comment doesn't (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  charlatan, Timaeus

                  even follow simple logic. But, as usual, you are only concerned with doing a google search to find a link to someone who you think supports your opinion and then making 90% of all of your posts simply a quotation of some cherry picked "citation" from some dude on the internet that you think agrees with you. It's not hard for anyone to find a link saying anything. But, it's also useless, unless there is some defensible logic behind it. I challenge you to respond to me with logic, not to filibuster with long quotations and links to meaningless websites. Are you even capable of writing your own thoughts in a few posts, or do you always have to use some quote or link as a crutch?

                  Putin clearly has been intervening in Ukrainian politics for over a decade. He was probably involved in the poisoning of President Yushchenko in 2004. Who was he running against? Viktor Yanukovich. Had Yushchenko died, Yanukovich would have certainly been elected President. In fact, Yanukovich was "elected" back in 2004, but the election was overturned by the Supreme Court due to ample evidence of fraud. However, who insisted that the new run off election not be held? Putin. So, he has supported Yanukovich for over 10 years and Yanukovich has supported him. He may have even tried to kill Yanukovich's rival for him (Also, if you don't know any of the basic history I quoted above, I'm not going to give you a link. You can use Wikipedia on your own).

                  So, to simply quote me some opinion piece from CNN where someone says, she doesn't think  Yanukovich was "Putin's puppet" is meaningless. You could quote me that "horseshit is caviar" and I would have the common sense to say no it's not. But, I suspect you would wholehearted believe it.  If you even carefully read the information from your link above, you will see that the author is making a more nuanced point about Yanukovich. Only a fool would think they didn't have a long history together. However, she points out that Yanukovich was often an unreliable partner. He was a greedy, corrupt schemer. He didn't always deliver on what he said (such as on the trade deal with the EU). Yet, he usually did come around to Putin's way of thinking in the end. He certainly did many things that were more in Putin's interest instead of Ukraine's. That even included Yanukovich pocketing money from the Ukrainian military budget, essentially defunding it, and  making the country vulnerable if Putin ever did precisely what he is doing now: Invading. But, whether that was driven by Yanukovich's own greed or whether it supported a policy Putin wanted, it doesn't really matter. The fact remains that Yanukovich did many things that were in Russia's interest not Ukraine's.

                  Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

                  by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:56:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So if there are threats, then that is a coup? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Timaeus, charlatan, cryonaut

                    Maybe we should call Yanukovich the victim of potential threats of a potential coup. He therefore preemptively fled, never to return, which in the minds of Putin, you, and other Putin apologists here, makes anything the remaining government did forever illegitimate (even after the new elections). Apparently they should have all just remained paralyzed into complete inaction because their cowardly president fled from potential threats.

                    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

                    by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:03:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Best comment in the thread, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tekno2600

                      although too late to be noticed, alas.

                      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:26:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thanks. It was hard for me to respond to comments (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Timaeus

                        today. But, I couldn't miss the chance to comment on Yanukovich being the potential victim of potential threats of a potential coup...those potential bastards!!!

                        Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

                        by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:50:06 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  NATO's expansion did not precipitate anything (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bear83, TheLizardKing, Timaeus

          Just saying that it did doesn't make it true. It's a cop out.

          Propaganda.

          It's no more true than the official Russian denials that this invasion is taking place...or the prior denials that Russian troops were taking over Crimea.

          This is a country that's being run by an organized crime syndicate. They don't care whether Poland signed a treaty that gave it membership in NATO. They want power and riches, and women. They don't need Poland for that. In fact, having Poland in NATO just makes it easier for the leadership to sell this lie to the Russian people, so they're probably thrilled with NATO expansion.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

          by FischFry on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:28:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  George Kennan, architect of Containment... (4+ / 0-)

            ...strategy that ultimately defeated the USSR, would disagree with you.

            He called NATO's expansion counterproductive to stability in the area, as he correctly predicted how Russia would respond.

            Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

            by PatriciaVa on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:10:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, Kennan would disagree with you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              Yes, Kennan wrote this:

              "the main element of any United States policy toward the Soviet Union must be a long-term, patient but firm and vigilant containment of Russian expansive tendencies ... Soviet pressure against the free institutions of the Western world is something that can be contained by the adroit and vigilant application of counterforce at a series of constantly shifting geographical and political points, corresponding to the shifts and manoeuvers of Soviet policy, but which cannot be charmed or talked out of existence."

              He then spent the rest of his career attacking just about every instance in which policymakers did just that, saying they didn't understand his point -- that we didn't need to resist the Soviets everywhere.

              So, he might disagree that containment -- or, at least his conception of it -- had anything to do with the Cold War or its outcome.

              Having said that, you're missing a crucial comparison. While Putin might not have the same ideological bent, he's trying to craft one (traditional values or something like that, along with Russian greatness), and he's like the Soviets, Putinistas are using it as "the fig leaf of their moral and intellectual respectability."Like the Soviets, he's using the international bogeyman as "justification for the [regime/nation's] instinctive fear of the outside world," and all kinds of internal repression.

              Putin wants an enemy. NATO expansion didn't really trouble them before. With or without NATO expansion, Putin wold have pointed to NATO's existence as proof that Russia has an enemy. There's nothing Russia has done that I think they wouldn't have done anyway.

              Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

              by FischFry on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:15:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Would you say that Saddam's WMD program (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          precipitated the US invasion of Iraq?

          Russia has done this in at least 2 other countries I'm aware of - Georgia and Moldova.

          I will say it again. If you were against the Iraq War and you try to justify or minimize Russia's invasion of its neighbors you are a hypocrite of the highest order.

          It doesn't matter what the US did or didn't do. If it's bad when the US does it it's bad when other countries do it.

          If you're going to justify Putin's wars of aggression you're implicitly justifying Bush's wars of aggression and US aggression in any number of countries in Central America.

          When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

          by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:28:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  omg, the purists talk all the time about the (0+ / 0-)

          evils of imperialism, yet here they are defending BLATANT imperialism by Putin.  Wow.  Shouldn't surprise me, because they will support any entity that is in a confrontation with "the West", but even though it's totally expected, their hypocrisy is still a sight to behold.  I don't think even Chomsky himself has shifted culpability of Putin's imperialism away from Putin and onto NATO.

        •  Putin wants the Russian Empire/USSR back (0+ / 0-)

          I agree NATO expansion may have EXACERBATED things (I never would've allowed the Baltic states in - Breaking News: Dubya was a God Damn Idiot) but Putin's foreign policy goals are quite f'n clear at this point I'd say. He'd be doing something like this either way.

          "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

          by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 02:47:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The answer to every question (9+ / 0-)

      is just bomb more stuff.

      … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

      by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:59:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Putin apologists had mostly gone underground (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FG, Timaeus, cryonaut

      in the aftermath of the downing of the airliner.  But now that Putin has begun full scale invasion, his fanboys in the American left have returned in full force to defend Putin's imperialism or at least explain it away ("NATO made him do it!") or change the subject ("Look over there!  Israel!!") or engage in some other form of apologia.

      What an embarrassment  the Putin apologists are to the American purist left.

  •  Americans (7+ / 0-)

    Russians and Syrians are teaming up to fight ISIS. The worlds a funny place.

    I think that Ukraine forces have acted very badly in this mess, just as putin forces have. My hear breaks for the citizens in the video documentaries from the region that can be foundon vice.com

    If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

    by LieparDestin on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:37:54 AM PDT

  •  Could you please name names? (10+ / 0-)
    the large pro-Putin contingent here.
  •  George Shultz and Wm Perry wrote in WSJ (7+ / 0-)

    that the US should act now by putting troops in the Baltic states and supplying Kiev with immediate military assistance.

    Not that that would escalate the situation or anything...

    http://online.wsj.com/...

    To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

    by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:50:17 AM PDT

    •  I'm dismayed at the whole situation. (7+ / 0-)

      I have no idea whether the United States could do anything effective.

      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:51:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't either. What's scary is that things could (9+ / 0-)

        get out of control very quickly, in the sense that if Russia decides to march on Kiev as a means of ending the conflict.

        Some updates from the BBC liveblog (I'v been following ti all morning):

        Sweden's foreign minister has told the BBC Russia's actions amount to an "undeclared invasion". "I don't think there is the slightest of doubt what's happening," Carl Bildt said. "Remember Crimea. He [Putin] denied everything concerning Crimea until very very late."
        When you've lost the Swedes...
        German Chancellor Angela Merkel says she will discuss the possibility of further sanctions on Russia at an EU summit on Saturday - Reuters.
        Joseph Dempsey, a military analyst at the Institute for Strategic Studies, tells the BBC he has assessed footage of battle tanks used by rebels in Ukraine.  "In the last couple of days we've seen footage that can identify to a type of tank, the T-72 BM, which is only in service within the Russian army... it is clearly a tank that could only be provided by Russia."
        The T-72 is is an older main line battle tank, but the BM version has reactive armor on it, which only Russian inventory T-72's are supposed to have.

        According to ITV, Poland's foreign minister is quoted as saying:

        Poland's Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski has called Russia's actions in eastern Ukraine an "aggression" that has created the most serious security crisis in Europe in decades.  "This for sure is an aggression," Sikorski told state radio. "Poland's position will be worked out in the next couple of hours."  He said the need for "strong words" had passed and called for "actions of the whole international community".

        To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

        by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:59:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I doubt that the US should (4+ / 0-)

        Is southeastern Ukraine worth fighting WW3 over?

        … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

        by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:13:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  i don't think we shoud get militarily involved... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wayoutinthestix, jds1978, native

        ... in this one.

        a)  We have good diplomatic channels and should be using those to the greatest extent possible as a matter of principle.

        b)  Getting militarily involved in Ukraine carries a risk of escalating into WW3, nuclear weapons potentially included.

        c)  Russia could make a "Monroe Doctrine" claim that Ukraine is part of their empire and we should buzz off, and the logic of that is difficult to counter-argue.

        d)  We have no national security interests in this situation.

        e)  We have a first-class emergency brewing right now with ISIL, that calls for military intervention to prevent more mass slaughters, and we shouldn't spread ourselves thin.

        To which I should also add:

        Ukraine's own gov is a hard-rightwing regime, so choosing between them and the Empire of Tsar Putin is like choosing between an alligator and a crocodile.

        GOTV as if your life depends on it, because somebody's life does.

        by G2geek on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:56:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I with you hear up until the last sentence, which (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think is true.

          Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
          Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

          by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:59:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  from what i've heard so far... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wayoutinthestix

            ... the Ukraine leadership are nasty right-wingers.  If that's not correct, by all means point me in the correct direction because this stuff gets confusing.  

            GOTV as if your life depends on it, because somebody's life does.

            by G2geek on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:11:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  the nasty right wingers are a minority party (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              native, Timaeus

              in the ruling coalition, but more represented in the militias and armed forces. there's a ton of RT propaganda taking a small group of admittedly nasty people and claiming that everyone in ukraine is a fascist, that unfortunately gets a lot of play on the american left because RT has been good about reporting on unrelated issues not relating to russia and people seem to have a hard time wrapping their heads around complexity abroad.

    •  Cold War II and George Schultz, wow. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, dizzydean, AllTheWayWithLBJ85

      I'm having an attack of deja vu.

  •  The excuse (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, G2geek, mr crabby

    from your Al Jazeera link:

    Earlier, a pro-Russia rebel leader said serving Russian soldiers, on leave from their posts, were fighting Ukrainian troops alongside the country's separatists in eastern Ukraine, the website of a Russian state television channel has reported.

    "Among us are fighting serving soldiers, who would rather take their vacation not on a beach but with us, among brothers, who are fighting for their freedom," said Zakharchenko in an interview posted on Thursday on Vesti.ru.

    While I can understand their reluctance to spend their off time in those dreadful hotels under Putin's summer palace in Sochi, I cannot think of any other army that allows its soldiers to toddle off next door to do a bit of voluntary pillage.

    I have also discovered a great site which was crowdfunded. It uses a variety of techniques to establish locations and trawls social media to help this. For example, it managed to locate the site of a rebel Ukrainian training camp in a site 800 meters from the Russian border.

    Today they show how a member of the Russian equivalent of the Navy Seals has been fighting in Ukraine and has some interesting posts he made on social media.

    On the 21st of July, Gorelyh posted a photograph of his car driving through the border crossing at Nehoteevka with the comment “we are already close, fucking Banderas”.  The reference is to Stepan Bandera, who led a nationalist movement in Ukraine during the Stalinist era and who remains notorious in Russia for his collaboration with the Nazis.

    When one of his followers asks “holidays or work”, Gorelyh replies with “work, of course! Its to do with our profession” followed by gun emoji.

    Despite his caution, he has the DNR, the Russian acronym for the “Donetsk People’s Republic” set as his location. Moreover, when one of his followers urges him to “tear them [the Ukrainians] all apart” he replies with “we’re already tearing them”.

    On the 29th of July, Gorelyh announced that he is was crossing the border at Goptovka. An anonymous user who seems to side with the Ukrainian forces posted “this time you’ll return from “grandmother” in zinc”. This is a reference to zinc coffins are used to return the bodies of dead soldiers from overseas. Gorelykh replied with “fucking Banderovite offspring, I have been there a hundred times, and will go again just as many times”

    There is also a piece from yesterday showing how members of the rebel group Terek Wolf Sotnia are avowed neo-Nazis and includes pictures showing identified members of the group in uniform and from their social media posting giving the Heil Hitler salute.

    "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

    by Lib Dem FoP on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:52:39 AM PDT

    •  any sighting of nazis is always an emergency... (0+ / 0-)

      .... like spotting a brush fire before it turns into a conflagration.  

      And it's always interesting to see grassroots OSINT going to work on these things.

      But "foreign" is not like "domestic," in that it's very difficult to parse out all the layers unless you have intimate current knowledge of the culture and its history.  Bundy's Boys are easy, Terek Wolf Sotnia and all of those are potential matryoshka dolls with nested layers of intrigue.  

      Also, when doing OSINT where national governments are involved, one has to be careful of apparent corroborations from apparent independent sources that are feeding from common underlying sources.  

      What makes it truly urgent to get on the case with this stuff is the fact that we are seeing outbreaks of nazism in apparently unconnected places:  Greece (including Hitler busts in their office), Hungary, France, as well as Ukraine.  So far these groups are ultra-nationalist but if they start cooperating in any serious way, we are in for a potential world of hurt.  

      GOTV as if your life depends on it, because somebody's life does.

      by G2geek on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:56:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  seems my comment in April was spot-on (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus, gjohnsit, Kingsmeg, The Wizard

    here is my comment back then:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    the West is so arrogant... i heard someone talking yesterday about how cutting off gas to Ukraine would be a double-edged sword for the Russians..small minded analysts who can't seem to understand that Russia is looking at this with a view towards the next century.

    If Ukraine wants to align economically with the West, Russia wont tolerate it being that close to Rostov.. and will take the entire Sea of Azov for both its resources and to have a land corridor to the Crimea.

    These are important strategic moves in light of the fact that Putin's henchmen no longer control Ukraine and that changes thins dramatically in his eyes. If it must align with the west economically, Russia is going to rewrite the border to its satisfaction and we can all stamp our feel and complain..but it is ging to happen.

  •  I've actually thought your analysis on this (8+ / 0-)

    was spot-on all along, and a couple of weeks ago The New Yorker had an extensive article about ambassador McFaul which really outlined the development of Putin's goal of re-establishing some kind of Imperial Russia (with himself as de-facto Czar).

    Ukraine has suffered partition between Russian and Austria-Hungary, Nazi occupation, Soviet terror, and now Russian terror.

    Ukraine has the sad position of being literally divided not only ethnically, but in terms of wanting to face west and wanting to face east. Worse, it's got everything from sea access to grain and gas that everyone covets.

    "To take another person's life from the bench is no better than to take another person's life from the street"

    by commonmass on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:05:13 AM PDT

  •  "Zero Proof" - The "Russian Invasion" Of Ukraine (16+ / 0-)

    The authors of this NYT piece, Ukraine Reports Russian Invasion on a New Front, are not really convincing when presenting these reports by the Ukrainian government as truthful:

    The United States has photographs that show the Russian artillery moved into Ukraine, American officials say. One photo dated last Thursday, shown to a New York Times reporter, shows Russian military units moving self-propelled artillery into Ukraine. Another photo, dated Saturday, shows the artillery in firing positions in Ukraine.
    Shown to one NYT reporter" who likely can not differentiate a Grad system from a pipe organ is hardly any proof. Why doesn't the U.S. publish the picture?

    Zero proof - indeed.

    Judging from pictures of equipment and ammunition the insurgents currently use, all of it seems to be the same Soviet era stuff the Ukrainian army is using.

    ::

    This preposterous "information operation" is without doubt of U.S. origin.

    Consider: The Ukrainian President talks about Russian affiliated insurgents in east-Ukraine.

    Then, Reuters and others distribute this as "invasion".

    Finally, after all major news-entities repeated the "invasion" claim and the public damage is done they simply take it back.

    Consider this Tweet from Tagesschau, the highest rated German TV news show:
    On #Ukraine there was a translation error by the agency Reuters:  According to the correction Poroshenko did not talk of an invasion.
    So there was an "invasion", distributed by major news agencies, which then turns out to have been a translation error or an intentional Poroshenko 'screw up'.

    ::

    Notice that one author of the NYT piece above is Michael Gordon, who, together with Judith Miller, wrote sensational reports about proof of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The current head of NATO who is promoting war against Russia, Fogh-of-war Rassmussen, said 11 years ago:

    "Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know".
    These folks and the western news agencies that promoted the WMD in Iraq claims are now claiming a Russian "invasion" in Ukraine only to retract it when the damage is done.

    Warmongers. All of them.::

    I'm not pro-Putin -- I am anti-stupid, easily-manipulated Americans strapping their war woodies on. Falling for the same bullshit again as the Iraq clusterfuck.

    •  Images are made public (6+ / 0-)

      The satellite images of Russian troops and equipment in Ukraine has been made public.

      •  I believe that Russia has sent troops (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cybrestrike, KJG52, Pluto, poco

        but "public images" mean nothing.
          Remember all those satellite images of Saddam's army about to invade Saudi Arabia in 1990?

        "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

        by gjohnsit on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:27:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nearly 1,000,000 East Ukraine refugees (6+ / 2-)

          …have fled to Russia to escape the murderous attacks from West Ukraine.

          East Ukraine is not attacking West Ukraine.

          It is West Ukraine that is the aggressor, here, bombarding East Ukraine because they want to be an independent state within Ukraine and they wish to enjoy the Human Right of self determination. They are being killed because they want that freedom.

          Russia does NOT want Ukraine. Has never wanted Ukraine. Russia will never annex Ukraine. Except in USians brain-damaged fever dreams for war.

          Russia did not invade Crimea. They were already there. Crimea is the location of the Russia Navy and Crimea has been part of Russia for centuries and centuries, until 1950, when Khrushchev, a Ukrainian, gave it over to Ukraine rule, much to the dismay of the Russians of Crimea.

          The ethnic Russian Crimeans held a vote for reunification with Russia -- when the West (using Polish Neo Nazi activists) toppled Ukraine's democratically elected government last April. The Crimeans won.

          Get over it.

          I'm sure there are Russians who have crossed the border and are fighting with with their ethnic brothers against the slaughter coming from the Neo Nazi-led West Ukraine.

          So what?

          This pearl clutching is the worst of America. It is shameful. It is none of your business, anyway, and there are no Russians hiding under your beds.

          •  I suppose you see the US Civil War as (7+ / 0-)

            The War of Northern Aggression?

            To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

            by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:34:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  hr'd (4+ / 0-)

            for the neo-nazi led West Ukraine. The only fascists are the ones you are defending. You are the type that would defend the worst of the worst authoritarians just to stick it to US. All you have is disgusting propagandist tripe.

            •  There are neo-Nazis fighting in Eastern Ukraine (7+ / 0-)
              http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

              Ukraine crisis: the neo-Nazi brigade fighting pro-Russian separatists

              Kiev throws paramilitaries – some openly neo-Nazi - into the front of the battle with rebels
              ...
               Mr Grek, also known as “Balagan”, died in the battle and 14 others were wounded. Speaking after the ceremony Andriy Biletsky, the battalion’s commander, told the Telegraph the operation had been a “100% success”. “The battalion is a family and every death is painful to us but these were minimal losses,” he said. “Most important of all, we established a bridgehead for the attack on Donetsk. And when that comes we will be leading the way.”

              The military achievement is hard to dispute. By securing Marinka the battalion “widened the front and tightened the circle”, around the rebels’ capital, as another fighter put it. While Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president, prevaricates about sending an invasion force into Ukraine, the rebels he backs are losing ground fast.

              But Kiev’s use of volunteer paramilitaries to stamp out the Russian-backed Donetsk and Luhansk “people’s republics”, proclaimed in eastern Ukraine in March, should send a shiver down Europe’s spine. Recently formed battalions such as Donbas, Dnipro and Azov, with several thousand men under their command, are officially under the control of the interior ministry but their financing is murky, their training inadequate and their ideology often alarming.

              The Azov men use the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf’s Hook) symbol on their banner and members of the battalion are openly white supremacists, or anti-Semites.

              •  The putzs with the HRs (5+ / 0-)

                …are merely uninformed losers.

                All they got is their little baskets of donuts to fight with.

                It's pathetic, really. Shameful to have them here. They disgrace every Diary they visit.

              •  even if that was true (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fcvaguy, charlatan, Timaeus

                how does that translate into "Neo Nazi-led West Ukraine". I don't take any of your and your authoritarian loving buddies  bullshit.

              •  Yes, some openly neo-Nazi (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                charlatan, cryonaut, Timaeus

                OOOOOO SCARY !!!!!  There are neo-nazi and far right wing parties and people all over Europe, in every European country and almost every European parliament. Why should Ukraine be any different?  Ukraine's government is democratically elected and its right wingers are a minority in that government. Puffing them up as you are is just BS Russian propaganda.

                Do you think its at all possible that actual Ukrainian citizens are forming paramilitary brigades to defend their own country? Why would you be shocked by that? Why would you assume their all neo-Nazis???

                Even the Guardian acknowledges its "SOME". Read the article !!!

                KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                by fcvaguy on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:09:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I've fought like hell with you in I/P diaries, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cryonaut

              but you're very right here.  I would add an HR if I were not the diarist.

              Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
              Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

              by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:42:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  There have been reports (5+ / 0-)

            in Europe that now there are also Greek, Spanish, French and other Western Europeans fighting with the rebels in Eastern Ukraine. There have also been repeatedly reports of Americans, Swedes, Italiens fighting for  Kiev. So volontieers and mercenaries are from all over. And I am sure there are also Russian voluteers fighting in Donbass.

            The European newssites are now retracting about the invasion and some see it as a desperate try by Poroshenko to get the NATO or at least some Western military involved in the fighting.

            I also agree with you that Putin doesn't want the Eastern Ukraine it would be an Albatross for Russia and one can criticise Putin for many things, but he is not stupid.

            Btw. I learned lately that the referendum in the Crimea was the third, there have been in 1992 and in 1994 referendums where there was also a huge majority for full independence or joining Russia. However Jelzin ignored them and Kiev rejected them. Though the referendum of 1994 led to the Crimea becoming a autonomes republic, meaning mostly independent of Ukraine - the Crimea has not been a full integrated part of the Ukraine since 1994, like the Oblasts in the Ukraine which are similar to states in the US, though not as independtent as the govenors are not elected by the citizens but chosen by Kiev.

            Read the European view at the European Tribune

            by fran1 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:07:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ridiculous propaganda (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            charlatan, cryonaut, Timaeus, Tony Situ, FG

            worse than you can read on Tass on Russia Today. So far removed from the reality on the ground, its ridiculous.

            The 1,000,000 refugees is a number that comes from Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister. It is not from any other reliable source. Whatever the real number is, they are not all going to Russia. Refugees are going east into Russia and west, deeper into Ukraine depending where they feel safer. In fact, a convoy of Ukrainian refugees going west was slaughtered by Ukrainian rebels (Russians).

            And, then there are the captured active duty Russian soldiers who were captured deep into Ukraine who have said they were duped by their commanders into going. One said "Russian soldiers are being used as cannon fodder". Then, there are multiple sources from inside Russia of secret funerals of Russian soldiers, names removed from graves, and mothers demanding the Russian government be held to account for the death of their soldier sons.

            This is a Putin sponsored invasion of a sovereign country through Russian mercenaries and Russian active duty soldiers and Russian military hardware.

            Then of course, there was the shoot down of the Malaysian airliner.

            The only thing shameful Pluto, is your shameful pushing of this fact free Russian propaganda. You've been consistently wrong since the very beginning of this and with this comment you've crossed from wrong to foolishness.

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:04:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  you are the chief Kremlin parrot (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bear83, TheHalfrican
    •  I must disagree. You're a Putin apologist. n/t (6+ / 0-)
    •  What will you say if it turns out to be true (5+ / 0-)

      and acknowledged eventually by the Russian govt? Will it change your thinking?

      •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice, Pluto

        Will it change your mind when it turns out there was no invasion?

        don't drone me, bro

        by BradMajors on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:59:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  By this time next week (3+ / 0-)

          …these hyserics will do it all over again about another country they can't find on a map -- whipped up by the Anglo media that has them in a trance.

        •  If there's no invasion and no long term attempt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheHalfrican

          at land grab, then yes it would. However, I remain very skeptical that that is what is going to happen and I don't think it's improbable that an invasion is indeed happening. I frankly don't see how you could think it improbable.

          •  This is reality: (4+ / 0-)

            Russia does NOT want Ukraine. Has never wanted Ukraine. Russia will never annex Ukraine. Except in USians brain-damaged fever dreams for war.

            It is my great hope that everyone here who is writhing in Ruskie-fear, will check in for a brain scan -- after this is all over. There is apparently something physically wrong with people who are so easily yanked around by media bullshit -- while reality on the ground says the complete opposite.

            You deserve a healthier and happier life.

            This nation needs no more Vietnams and Iraqs -- which were caused by the same exact brain defect among the general population.

            •  How does lying about Russia stop next Vietnam? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charlatan, cryonaut, Timaeus, kefauver

              This is the part that makes me wonder.  How is it that somehow being in favor of Russian expansion and being against facts stop wars?  It doesn't, of course; it encourages it.  

              It doesn't even stop US involvement, which is not wanted by anyone even without today's RT propaganda.  We KNOW what Russia is doing and still don't want a war.  

              So give it a fucking rest.  You're making an ass of yourself.

              Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

              by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:43:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Gather 'round, ladies and gents: (15+ / 0-)

              I want to use this comment as a teachable moment in the difference between truth and what Colbert rightly called "truthiness":

              Russia does NOT want Ukraine. Has never wanted Ukraine. Russia will never annex Ukraine. Except in USians brain-damaged fever dreams for war.
              It sounds so good, doesn't it? It's almost like there isn't a term in Russia for this very issue - "the Ukrainian Question" [украинский вопрос] - and it doesn't recur regularly in Russian political discussions, though it probably peaked in 2004-5, when 70% of Russians supported absorbing Ukraine into a single state with Russia. (APN did a good summary of the debate over annexing Ukraine here).

              Why 2004-5? A few reasons: first and foremost, it was the 350th anniversary of what Russian (but not Ukrainian) scholars call "the reuinification of Ukraine with Russia", nudge, nudge. 2005 saw the (new) Yalta conference with Putin discussing the historical fate of Ukraine; and by this point Russians were aglow with optimism about a potential full merger with Belarus, rather than just the closer economic/political ties. The interest in reunifying Ukraine into Russia was a serious enough discussion that the Duma committee on International Affairs under Dmitri Rogozin had to dance around the question ("Such prospects... do exist.")

              Given the way the later 2000s panned out, it's fully understandable why Russian attentions shifted toward the creation of an EU-like mechanism for former Soviet states, albeit one, in Rogozin's words, with a more tightly organized infrastructure. Putin, of course, has always been more laconic about this issue, but that's typical of Putin's politics: he's laconic about most things (except when he drops terms like "New Russia" into his discussions of Eastern Ukraine, which happens to be one of those reunification slogans.) Remember also that Putin acknowledged after the fact to sending more troops to Crimea "to ensure that the referendum was conducted in an open, honest, and decent way" (his words), so there's adequate reason to take his comments with a few grains of salt.

              Now: it's for you, individual readers, to decide for yourselves how serious you consider these discussions, whether they should be given any weight or relevance in the current debate, etc. It may very be you think this is exaggerated and not worthy of your time. But at least you're armed with information now, instead of the typically empty, inaccurate sloganeering that Pluto has been pouring out on this issue.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:51:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  There are no US troops in Baghdad (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cryonaut

              Nice to know Baghdad Bob is posting here.

              "NO", snapped Mr al-Sahaf, "We have retaken the airport. There are NO Americans there. I will take you there and show you. IN ONE HOUR!"

              "Iraqi fighters in Umm Qasr are giving the hordes of American and Brtish mercenaries the taste of definite death. We have drawn them into a quagmire and they will never get out of it."

              When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

              by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:04:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Brain scan? (0+ / 0-)

              That should be HR'd.

              Pluto has launched several HRable comments here.

              NOBODY is talking about Russia annexing all of Ukraine.

              Russia illegally captured Crimea and is now illegally capturing a land bridge to Crimea.

              Deny all you want, the facts speak for themselves.

              Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
              Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

              by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:50:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I can't believe they'll take this "invasion" (0+ / 0-)

              much farther than they've already taken it. An all-out Russian occupation would have every breathing Ukrainian taking up arms to emulate their grandfather's resistance against the Soviets. It'd be a f'n bloodbath and one consistent element about Putin's aggression seems to be he wants to do it at minimal cost.

              Wise.

              Even the most reluctant European nations have signaled they'd bite the bullet and lay down HARSH sanctions that would damage themselves significantly in that scenario.

              Combine that death toll with severe economic shocks and it'd be a recipe for Putin losing his grip on power in the Motherland. He is NOT stupid imho. People don't understand....Hitler was very much stupid.

              "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

              by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 03:52:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  There's been an ongoing invasion since (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger, charlatan

          February.  It's really strange to keep encountering people who deny that.

          Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
          Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

          by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:01:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ever wonder why MH 17 fell out of the news (5+ / 0-)

        …like it never even happened?

        The US has the missile fire photos. Coincidently, a US satellite right right over Ukraine when it happened.

        Ever wonder why they don't publish them?

        The US knows when a North Korean citizen farts.  Why hide the missile launch that brought down that airplane?

        •  could it be that like every other new item (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus, Inland, Sky Net, TheLizardKing

          in history, it doesn't occupy the public's attention 24/7 for the rest of history?

          Is that why Robin Williams death isn't on the front page anymore too?

          •  What about Flight MH370? (5+ / 0-)

            Six months and counting.

            Besides, when you are ginning up for war, you use every piece-of-shit propaganda at your disposal.

            The US cannot use Flight MH17 because the Chinese and Russians have the same satellite photos, too.

            If you peel the onion, you discover that this is all about the TTIP Trade Agreement -- including overthrowing the Ukraine government.

            And, that is all about containing Russia and China.

            This is the BIG issue, geopolitically, that is underlying all this nonsense.

            All this silly crap in this Diary is Kabuki distraction, mis-direction, and sleight-of-hand for easily fooled people.

            •  Look around at all the dummies. (0+ / 0-)
            •  MH370 isn't a big news item anymore (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TheLizardKing

              We aren't being interrupted in our daily programming. It's not front page of all the newspapers or the first item on their websites.  

              •  UNIAN, The Ukrainian Government News Service (0+ / 0-)

                In a news story on August 12th, that four days earlier (August 8th) a representative of that nation’s Prosecutor General office, Yuri Boychenko, had said that:

                “the results [of the investigation] will be announced upon completion of the investigation and only with the consent of all the parties who signed the corresponding agreement.”

                “As part of the four-party agreement signed on August 8 between Ukraine, the Netherlands, Belgium and Australia, all the information on the investigation into the disaster Malaysian ‘Boeing-777’ will not be disclosed.”  

                http://www.unian.net/...

            •  Another big piece of the puzzle is stopping the (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fran1, Pluto, wayoutinthestix

              South Stream Pipeline. This will give the Western backed Nabucco pipeline, which was put on hold, a new lease on life.

            •  We're not ginning up for war. Stop saying this. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Inland, Dr Swig Mcjigger

              Who here wants a God Damn war with Russia? How delusional are you? Seriously, point me to a single fucking comment or diary in the history of DailyKos where someone was stupid enough to say we should literally fight a world war with Russia over this?

              You don't like the fact that we're calling out your RT-propaganda-spewing, effectively-pro-Russian-imperialist crap, so you're trying (and failing) to paint us all Pro-WW3 or something. FOH

              "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

              by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 03:58:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

                Even the harshest Putin critics here concede that there's not much we can do about it other than sanctions and most of us question as to whether those would work, even if fully implemented. I don't see anyone wanting war with Russia.

                •  The problem is that whether you want a war (0+ / 0-)

                  doesn't actually matter. Me either. We have no say in this except to get people all riled up about how evil Putin is. And that bandwagon is getting full.

                  If Putin really is a bad as some folks here are making him out to be then we really should be doing a lot more. I mean, he's going to march over the entirety of Europe like Hitler did according to too many people here. He's the new Hitler!

                  If he's so bad then how do you justify doing nothing? That's what's getting people here. How can you think that Putin is so damn evil and insane and not support doing something? It certainly doesn't make sense to me.

                  My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                  by AoT on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:09:00 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Funny you mention Hitler (0+ / 0-)
                    Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday hailed pro-Moscow separatists in eastern Ukraine as “insurgents” battling an army that he likened to Nazi invaders during World War II, and the Ukrainian government raised the prospect of joining NATO as it seeks help in repelling what it calls an outright Russian military invasion of its territory.
                    http://www.washingtonpost.com/
                    •  Indeed, Putin also uses argument ad Hitler (0+ / 0-)

                      That's what's so great about it, most people can do it. The right wing here uses it all the time, the left less often these days, thankfully.

                      My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

                      by AoT on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 12:11:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Still waiting for transcript of black boxes as (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pluto, native

          well as Ukrainian air traffic control conversations with pilots. I want to know why this flight went further north than previous.

        •  I can't believe (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus, TheHalfrican

          this got 4 uprates.

          facepalm

    •  Info op? LOL (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      It wasn't a translation error or a screw up. The Ukrainian MFA warned about the invasion yesterday and hasn't retracted anything.

      Local media have been documenting Russian escalations for weeks while western sources have been almost comically reluctant to call it like it is.

      Your pre-fab narrative again fails to shed light on recent events.

      •  The only recent event is that a convoy (3+ / 0-)

        …of 240 Russian trucks entered East Ukraine with humanitarian aid from the international Red Cross, then turned around and left.

        •  Ooohhhhh! Now I see (4+ / 0-)

          …where this brain-damaged paranoia is coming from.

          People -- try reading a non-Anglo news source for a change. Stop being tool and suckers:

          This from Germany:

          Russia announces second aid convoy for eastern Ukraine

          Russia's top diplomat has announced that Moscow will send a second aid convoy to eastern Ukraine, after Kyiv condemned the first caravan as an "invasion." Meanwhile, clashes have been reported near the Russian border.

          Russia ups pressure with new "aid" convoy to Ukraine
          Citing the "deteriorating humanitarian situation," Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Monday that the Kremlin would send a second aid convoy this week to eastern Ukraine, where government forces are battling pro-Russian separatists.

          "We want to reach an agreement on all conditions for delivering a second convoy by the same route," Lavrov told a news conference in Moscow.

          Last Friday, Russia sent a humanitarian aid convoy across the border into eastern Ukraine without Kyiv's approval, delivering supplies to the rebel-stronghold of Luhansk. The Ukrainian government labeled Moscow's unilateral move as an "invasion."

          Kyiv had expressed concern that the 260-truck convoy would be used to resupply pro-Russian separatists with arms and munitions. Moscow said that the convoy only contained humanitarian aid for civilians who have been caught up in the fighting.

          Humanitarian situation

          Ukraine and Russia had reached an agreement to allow the first convoy into rebel-controlled areas under the supervision of the Red Cross. But when the convoy was held up for days at the border by Ukrainian inspections, Moscow opted instead to send the trucks in without Kyiv's permission or Red Cross monitors.

          Presidents Obama and Putin spoke on the phone about this convoy. President Obama helped pave the way. The Kiev Neo Nazis are insane.

          Jesus.

          You people!

          Please don't try to think globally.

          •  Enjoy the pictures (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            charlatan

            at the 15:10 time stamp,
            http://www.interpretermag.com/...
            NATO Releases Satellite Imagery Exposing Russian Military Operations in Ukraine
            15:10 (GMT)

            NATO has released satellite imagery today August 28 that show Russian forces engaged in military operations inside Ukrainian territory:

            Dutch Brigadier General Nico Tak, director of the Comprehensive Crisis and Operations Management Centre (CCOMC), Allied Command Operations said the images confirmed what NATO and its Allies had been seeing for weeks from other sources.

            "Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine,” said Brigadier General Tak. "The satellite images released today provide additional evidence that Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry, are operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory,” he said.

            These latest images provide concrete examples of Russian activity inside Ukraine, but are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the overall scope of Russian troop and weapons movements.

            "We have also detected large quantities of advanced weapons, including air defence systems, artillery, tanks, and armoured personnel carriers being transferred to separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine,” said Brigadier General Tak. "The presence of these weapons along with substantial numbers of Russian combat troops inside Ukraine make the situation increasingly grave,” he said.

            Also released were images showing substantial activity inside Russia in areas adjacent to the border with Ukraine. NATO believes this activity is being conducted in direct support to forces operating inside Ukraine, and is part of a highly coordinated and destabilising strategy.

            "Russia is reinforcing and resupplying separatist forces in a blatant attempt to change the momentum of the fighting, which is currently favouring the Ukrainian military," Brigadier General Tak said. "Russia's ultimate aim is to alleviate pressure on separatist fighters in order to prolong this conflict indefinitely, which would result in further tragedy for the people of Eastern Ukraine," he added.

            http://aco.nato.int/...

          •  "The Kiev Neo Nazis are insane." (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            charlatan

            Why not just say that the Russians are liberating Ukraine from insane Nazis and that an invasion is justified, rather than all the implausible denial of Russian involvement?

            You found a way to justify taking Crimea and all the oil reserves in the Black Sea.  You're getting ready to do it for eastern Ukraine.  Save yourself some time.

            Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

            by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:39:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Are you paying any attention at all? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          The convoy isn't the only recent event. There's also the little matter of Russian troops getting caught on walkabout in Ukraine, or else turning up dead and wounded. I'm sure it's all just a coincidence.

          •  There are plenty of Russians who grabbed (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice

            …their guns and headed to both Kiev or East Ukraine to fight -- just like there are plenty of Americans and Brits fighting for ISIS right now.

            Boys will be boys.

            The US did not order US citizens to fight for ISIS.

            Russia did not order Russian citizens to fight for Kiev -- or to fight for East Ukraine.

            They've all been living together, along the border together, mingling their families, for many many centuries.

            But boys will be boys.

            •  Boys will be boys, eh? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus, FG

              Another keeper from you! Active duty personnel don't just wander off to fight without orders.

              •  Their arguments really are shameless. (0+ / 0-)

                In the law, we talk of the blush test:  could you actually make this argument to a judge without blushing?  These guys, especially Pluto, are outrageously failing the blush test.

                Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
                Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

                by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:59:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  You should visit President's personal website (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus, sviscusi

      before you tell us what he thinks.  

      http://www.president.gov.ua/...

      "I have made a decision to cancel my working visit to the Republic of Turkey due to sharp aggravation of the situation in Donetsk region, particularly in Amvrosiivka and Starobeshevo, as Russian troops were actually brought into Ukraine," the President noted.
      "
      Columns of heavy artillery, huge loads of arms and regular Russian servicemen came to the territory of Ukraine from Russia through the uncontrolled border area to save the terrorist gang," the President said.
      So, from which site did you cut and paste your lecture?  Because they aren't trying to give you a complete picture, and we have a right to know when someone is merely transmitting someone else's propaganda.

      Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

      by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:50:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You offer statements by Poroshenko as proof of (4+ / 0-)

        anything? How many times has he been proved wrong in the last 4 months?

        •  It's proof of Poroshenko's position, which (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          charlatan

          Pluto said was not that an invasion had occurred.

          And when is Pluto going to tell us which website he's copying?  He's clearly not doing his own googling, or he would have come up with the president's personal website himself?  How about you guys letting us know what your source of info is?

          And while we're counting up the number of times someone has been wrong, I've got Pluto at "one" in the last half hour.  What's the president's count at?  Or NATO?  

          Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

          by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:07:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Poroshenko has lied many times. You can go back (0+ / 0-)

            and check them out. Fogh Anderson has made an ass of himself many times.

            I give extensive links to back up my statements.

            •  You're not reading. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charlatan, Timaeus

              Pluto said, Poro isn't claiming an invasion.

              His personal website quoted him a claiming there is an invasion.

              So Pluto was wrong about something he would have known if he did one minute of searching the internet instead of repeating whatever he wished to be true.  He's not reliable.

              Hope that clears things up.

              Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

              by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:02:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Here little fella: (0+ / 0-)

            I think you're going to need these:

            •  Putinesque tough talk, huh? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timaeus

              Kinda sad.

              Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

              by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:44:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Pluto, I can't see the image you failed to (0+ / 0-)

              post, but by now I'm extremely annoyed at you and the way you're crapping up my diary with lies and propaganda.

              You should be banned.  I say that seriously.

              In addition to being wrong on almost everything, and completely driven by ideology, and completely unable to accept any criticism of your ridiculous positions, you are also a super-abusive bully.

              Go away.

              In any event, stay out of all of my diaries from here on.  You're persona non grata, an unwelcome person to me.

              Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
              Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

              by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:04:06 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Pluto's comment was copymangled from (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus

            here, which was probably itself copymangled from an RT op-edge or some shit, LOL. The distinct lack of original, joined-up thinking isn't really a shocker.

            •  Right, it's not actual thinking, it's some kind (0+ / 0-)

              of weird ideological cutting-and-pasting.  Pathetic and stinky.

              Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
              Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

              by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:06:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  So the 10 Russian paratroopers that were (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      charlatan, Timaeus, FG, TheHalfrican

      captured by the Ukrainian military just happened to walk across the border in military formation.

      I'm just going to go the store and buy some milk and OH MY GOD I'M IN CANADA DRIVING AN APC!

      Where exactly did the armored column that is invading from Russian soil targeting Mariupol coming from? There aren't any separatist forces anywhere near there, certainly none with main battle tanks.

      Is this a video game and they just happened to "spawn" right next to the Russian border with repainted Russian military hardware?

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:03:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The border between Ukraine and Russia is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice

        extremely porous and criss-crossed by unofficial crossings and dirt tracks that have for years been used by locals to travel between neighboring villages. The people can cross without requiring visas or passports. Many Ukrainians work in Russia and commute every day.  The Canadian/US border used to be like that that in the 50's and 60's. You could walk or drive across in rural areas without anyone stopping you.

        Ten Russian low ranking military is not much of an invasion force.

        How come there are no photos? Phone cameras not working?

        •  So you're saying that Russia is at very least (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          charlatan, Timaeus, FG

          involved in dangerous activities that by definition lead to it frequently invading it's neighbors?

          Many Ukrainians work in Russia and commute every day.
          Do they frequently go to work across the border in full military uniform carrying military weapons and driving in military vehicles?
          Ten Russian low ranking military is not much of an invasion force.
          The US never invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. I think one or two Americans were captured but they could have easily walked across the border from Kuwait by accident.

          The leader of the "rebels' claimed that there are 3-4000 Russian troops fighting with them. He later said they were just on "holiday." I suppose the Bay of Pigs invasion was really all volunteers too.

          How come there are no photos? Phone cameras not working?
          http://www.bbc.com/...

          Since we have photos of Russian T-72 tanks in Ukraine I'm looking forward to your condemnation of Russia's illegal actions.

          Just curious - what was your favorite thing about the Iraq War that caused you to support it? The laughable evidence? The innocent dead people? What makes you love war so much?

          When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

          by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:22:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The Ukrainian army has T-72 tanks with reactive (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Wizard, protectspice

            armor. Here's Poroshenko standing in front of one. It even has the Ukrainian flag on it. The Ukrainian army has had Russian equipment since the days of the Soviet Union.

            https://translate.google.com/...

            On the background yelling on the fact that the video with T-72 tanks irrefutably proves the participation of Russian tanks in the war in the Donbas, Sergei Burkatovsky draws attention http://serb 2.livejournal.com/217344.htm-L , as one of the T- 72 "aggressors" crept very close to Poroshenko cunningly hiding behind the Ukrainian flag.
            Of course, advocates will continue to pretend that the Donbas in fighting the junta's just different modernization of the T-64, but from the perspective of the stories about the invasion of Russian tank armadas, yet promising heard stories about dozens of T-90 (but which has not been seen not filmed), which really is not from Ukraine, rather than about the T-72, which it has in storage is enough.

            Just curious - what was your favorite thing about the Iraq War that caused you to support it? The laughable evidence? The innocent dead people? What makes you love war so much?
            I argued against the Iraq War from the moment the war drums started pounding despite being called a Saddam lover. Just as I argued against regime change in Libya and the attempt to overthrow Assad. In each of these cases I've stated what would be the likely result and in each case it has come to pass.
        •  Damn, Claudius, every single comment of (0+ / 0-)

          yours here is crap.

          Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
          Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

          by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:07:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Were they in an RV? (0+ / 0-)

        Maybe they just got done watching the movie Stripes?

      •  hush, you warmongerer! (0+ / 0-)

        Just like Iraq! You want us to invade and occupy Russia for the oil!

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:00:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  you "false pretext for war" people tickle me pink! (0+ / 0-)

      As if anybody - even the dumbest hawks in the fever swamps of BillKristolLand - have been advocating for sending in a half million troops to fight a world war with Russia. That's why I opposed NATO expansion - unless Putin decides to bomb New York or something, NATO expansion makes Article 5 a lie and sets up a scenario where the Baltic states get ravaged.........and the American people barely care, let alone want to shed blood in their defense.

      If you RT drones keep this shit up, I'm gonna have white people HR'ing me for saying "Nigga Please" in comment titles lol.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 03:42:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There's a pro-Putin contingent here?? 8-/ -eom- (3+ / 0-)

    "Democrat" is a noun. "Democratic" is an adjective. "Republican" is an idiot. Illigitimi non carborundum. Regardless of Party. The license plate I want? OMG GOP WTF

    by TheOrchid on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:13:42 AM PDT

  •  Canadian NATO has some fun... (3+ / 0-)

    To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

    by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:14:28 AM PDT

  •  I guess Putin and/or the fascist "rebels" (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dizzydean, gjohnsit, wu ming

    in Ukraine don't see any reason to remain quiet and calm about this given the lack of action on Israel by the world. Ukraine isn't in NATO, and doesn't have any defense treaties, and Russia has nuclear weapons. So I'd expect Russia will get away with this. Why not when pretty much every other country does.

    In international relations, as domestically, those with power are held to a different standard.

    Although I will say I was wrong about this. I didn't expect Russia to grab more of Ukraine, it just didn't seem terribly useful to Russia, and more trouble than it's worth. But with all the shit that's going down around the world Russia will get away with this.

    Europe still isn't going to lay real sanctions on Russia, it can't. In think Russia knows that it has 5-10 years to grab land before Europe can switch off Russian oil.

    My other thought is that this isn't even Putin, but instead is hyper-nationalist Russian troops, i.e. Fascists, who see the land as theirs and will go out and work with the rebels, also fascist, to fight for it, and Putin just gets dragged along for the ride.

    My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

    by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:14:42 AM PDT

    •  I don't see this as Russia (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fran1

      trying to "grab more of Ukraine", but rather as providing material assistance to the rebels, in their battle with the Ukrainian Army and its allied militias. The rebels are not the aggressors in this war. The eastern cities and people are being bombed and attacked by a government they do not recognize.

      I agree with Pat Lang that local opposition to the government in Kiev is widespread and very determined,

      My own opinion is that America ultimately is not in a position to disavow self determination by a self identifying group of this size. What should happen now is a discussion of the borders of a new state and measures to end the fighting.
      and that a new state of Novorossiya is in the process of being formed. Yes Russia is helping them, but the impetus and inspiration, and most of the hard fighting for this is entirely home grown.

      Considering America's own origins in a War of Independence, I'm surprised there is not more sympathy for the rebels here.

      •  It makes sense but (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AoT, native, bleeding blue, Timaeus

        as the diarist notes, the issue of how to draw the map and who gains control of what areas is the sticking point. If the borders are drawn to give "Novorossiya" control of the majority of the nation's natural resources, the surviving state of Ukraine will be crippled economically. If the borders are drawn where these areas remain under Ukrainian control, then Novorossiya will rely on backers from the mother country and be a burden on Russia economically. I don't see an easy way to resolve that.

        Also, my impression was the verdict was still out whether there was actual popular support for the rebels in these areas. Most of the civilians seem to just want the fighting to stop. They may be afraid of being attacked by ethnic Ukrainian militias, but that's a big jump from there to wanting to become part of russia. THere's a lot of propaganda on both sides that needs to be discarded.

        •  Wherever the borders eventually (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fran1

          get drawn (and I agree, it will be a highly contentious process) Novorossiya, or whatever the name is, will not become "part of Russia". It will however be firmly allied with Russia, and within Russia's "orbit".

          •  The borders ARE drawn (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FG

            They were when Ukraine gained independence and its territorial integrity was guaranteed by Russian and the West.

            "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

            by Lib Dem FoP on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:16:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Also I think you could (convincingly) argue (7+ / 0-)

        that the entire 'rebellion' in Eastern Ukraine in the very first place was a pretense to create the conditions for a Russian invasion.

        •  I do not find that argument convincing. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, fran1

          Nor do I think Russia intends to "invade" Eastern Ukraine, in the sense of wanting to subsume it. Russia intends to prevent Eastern Ukraine from being controlled by Kiev,  and to assure it some degree of autonomy.

          •  I think that's pretty naive (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc, Timaeus, AoT

            but we'll see how it plays out. Russia will drive the Ukrainian militias back and create a land link with Crimea, as described by the diarist. THey will then push for a fully formed secession movement. The open question is how far inland into Ukraine the Russian counterattack will ago. Russia does not care about the interests of people in Eastern Ukraine any more than we care about the people in Kiev. They are political tools.

          •  Could be both...prolly is imho. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT

            Russian extremists act of their own accord with the desire of GIVING Russia a pretext etc

            "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

            by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:05:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Rebels are aggresors by definition. (3+ / 0-)
        a person who rises in opposition or armed resistance against an established government or ruler.
        The only reason anyone in the area of the rebellion supports the rebels is the remarkable propaganda job the Russians did to scare them about what was happening in Kiev and other western Ukrainian areas. A sovereign democratic state is withits rights to supress a rebelion, especially in this case where the rebelion is merely window dressing for a Russian invasion.

        Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

        by OIL GUY on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:50:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I prefer the term "separatists." (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Claudius Bombarnac, native

          The established government in Kiev was ousted in a coup.

          If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

          by HairyTrueMan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:57:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The established government was NOT (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, OIL GUY

            ousted in a coup.

            There was actually a deal in place for Yanukovych to remain in power, at least for a time, which was violated by him fleeing the country with his billions.

            Yanukovych was voted out of office by his own party and new elections were held.

            When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

            by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:07:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Crimea is a part of Russia. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              protectspice

              And eastern Ukraine is fighting for autonomy. Those regions overwhelmingly supported Yanukovych in the last legitimate Ukrainian election. I think that maybe they don't agree with your armchair assessment. There is a legal process for impeachment in that country, and it wasn't followed. Instead violence was used to oust the president.

              If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

              by HairyTrueMan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:44:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  So in spite of the fact that the "separatists" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          protectspice, fran1

          are fighting on their own turf, and being attacked by an Army from outside it; in spite of the fact that this Army is shelling separatist-controlled cities, while the separatists are not attacking, but defending; in spite of the fact that the separatists are trying to hold territory, not to acquire it; in spite of all this you still call them the aggressors?

          I'd say you have a strange way with language.

          •  define turf (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, OIL GUY

            Isn't Ukraine both parties turf? And not Russia's?

            Would we say that Texas militiamen who declared secession and wanted to found the New Republic of Texas, so they dont' have to live under "Kenyan Socialist Obama's dictatorship" to be fighting on their own turf and have right to self determination? I doubt it.

          •  That's a really strange way to look at it. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OIL GUY

            Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
            Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

            by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:09:46 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  All this talk of separtists is (0+ / 0-)

            giving me a flashback to the '70s and the Parti Québécois up in Montreal. The guys hated you for speaking English, but fortunately the girls didn't have the same hangup.

            Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

            by OIL GUY on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:13:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  No, rebels are not aggressors by definition (0+ / 0-)

          nothing in that definition said anything about being the aggressor.

          Categorical statements like this are rarely useful or correct.

          My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

          by AoT on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 07:31:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  War of Independence? (0+ / 0-)

        Don't you think this is far, far closer to the Civil War analogy considering western Ukraine isn't a colony located across an ocean from eastern Ukraine?

        Or excuse me, War of Northern Aggression to those who seem to think such things are justifiable.

      •  You sound like one of those "The War of (0+ / 0-)

        Northern Aggression" types.

      •  I think the idea is to nibble away what they can (0+ / 0-)

        in terms of grabbing little pieces of land while disrupting the rest of the country as much as possible and making it extremely difficult for them to function as a state.

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:03:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Sanction aren't going to happen (4+ / 0-)
      Europe still isn't going to lay real sanctions on Russia, it can't.
       Europe's economy is already slipping into recession again, and that is causing several european nations to publicly denounce the current sanctions.
        Ukraine's economy is in freefall and without Russian gas this winter people are going to freeze to death.

       Russia build up one of the largest stockpiles of foreign cash reserves in the world during the past decade. They are going to be able to last longer than most Americans think.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:32:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And Europeans (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, AoT, The Wizard

        are frustrated that despite pushing for sanctions the US is not sticking to those sanctions, like the 16 Boeing airplanes Russia is buying, after the imposition of the sanctions, Exxon is still cooperating in the Artic and the US is still buying rocket engins from Russia. So more and more Europeans are asking why they should pay the price for the sanctions and the US is getting the spoils.

        Read the European view at the European Tribune

        by fran1 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:14:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Keep up that fantasy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        charlatan

        I seem to remember that you have been spinning that line since before the EU and USA imposed the very first set of sanctions.

        "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

        by Lib Dem FoP on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:23:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: (0+ / 0-)

          The reality

           Now, Russia has decided to apply its own sanctions. The result is 100,000 tons of rotting French fruits and vegetables and over €1bn of unsold German pork and there are unsold stocks of Scotland’s most valuable export, mackerel...
             He managed to split EU opinion about these sanctions, especially among Eastern European countries who are the most affected by the ban.

          Attesting to this trend, and defying the purported image of European unity, Finnish President Sauli Niinisto became the first EU leader to meet President Vladimir Putin on Russian soil. Niinisto met the Russian leader last week to address the trade turnover between Russia and Finland, which has already fallen by 8% in the first half of this year and promises to keep plunging to an even greater extent following the food ban. Additionally, the largest opposition party in Greece has already urged its government to drop the Russian sanctions.

          "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

          by gjohnsit on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:41:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  that's why they won't unless.... (0+ / 0-)

        Putin just steps completely off the edge and wages an all-out invasion and total occupation.

        That's why I hated that "Panic: Russia Invades" headline HuffPo had...

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:07:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I doubt they see any connection between Israel (0+ / 0-)

      and themselves. Many of them (although probably not Putin) are antisemitic. As for Russian troops driving it, I mostly disagree. Putin is in full control of the army, there are no independent groups of soldiers or officers that could wage war on their own. Many of the volunteers on the rebel side are affiliated with fascist-like groups but they don't drive the policy.

      •  They're not idiots (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FG

        and they know that they're grabbing land like Israel is grabbing land. How could they not see the connection?

        I mostly disagree. Putin is in full control of the army, there are no independent groups of soldiers or officers that could wage war on their own.
        I made that statement a little stronger than I meant to on a reread. I'm not positive about that, but I see a definite possibility. Where the evidence of Putin's full control? Now there's fascists from other countries as well, so that means less control.

        My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

        by AoT on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 07:35:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think they mostly use Kosovo and (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT

          Iraq war as precedents. But the situation with Israel could inform their thinking as well. Their argument (that has some validity) is that US and other countries do whatever they want and Russia should be able to do the same.

          I haven't seen any evidence of anyone in the Russian army openly defying Putin and going to Ukraine to fight despite his orders not to do so. There are plenty of groups outside of the army who agitate for a full-scale invasion. Putin may well be afraid that if he's forced to abandon the rebels his popularity will tumble and these groups may start some sort of guerrilla campaign against him although they are unlikely to succeed. And at this point the only way not to abandon the rebels is an open invasion which is what happened.

  •  I have a problem with this comment (11+ / 0-)
    This prediction was roundly mocked by the large pro-Putin contingent here.
    This sort of comment is no different from something you would hear on RedState.
       I used to be denounced as being pro-Saddam when I said invading Iraq was a mistake.

    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

    by gjohnsit on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:32:39 AM PDT

  •  well this is not going to end well (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dizzydean, OIL GUY, ER Doc

    no matter what happens.

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:42:55 AM PDT

  •  Satellite Imagery (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Swig Mcjigger, Timaeus, bear83, OIL GUY

    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

    by HairyTrueMan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:51:39 AM PDT

  •  In hindsight I bet the Ukrainians regret (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shigeru, bear83, OIL GUY, Timaeus, FG, TheHalfrican

    giving up the large nuclear stockpile they got as part of the break up of the Soviet Union.

    We, as a whole, are much safer collectively, but from the prospective of the Ukrainians a do over would be useful.

    •  I'm sure they do! (0+ / 0-)

      When they did so, the United States and Russia both guaranteed their territorial sovereignty.  Ha ha ha.

      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:24:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, sc#ew their regrets, (0+ / 0-)

        Tanks, artillery , land mines, machine guns, anti-aircraft missiles, ammo, grenades, ballistic missiles, to anybody and everybody, sanctions or no sanctions, arms embargo's or no embargo's.

        Taliban, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Congo militias, the worst of the worst.

        http://www.pbs.org/...

        If the Ukraine had been allowed to keep the Soviet Nuclear Arsenal in the Ukraine after the break up of the Soviet Union, then on 9/10, Al Qaida would have been the 5th largest nuclear power on earth.

      •  Nukes prevent this. God Forgive our awful species. (0+ / 0-)

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:13:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Indeed. What a deeply, deeply depressing fact. (0+ / 0-)

      And one that won't be lost on future generations of world leaders.

      "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

      by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:12:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  no invasion (5+ / 0-)

    Sorry, Ukraine now says that no Russian invasion has taken place:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/...

    Ukraine has a history of claiming Russian invasions in the past.  All have turned out to be false.

    Stop believing this nonsense.

  •  Russia needs to fail in order to rebuild (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Swig Mcjigger, ER Doc, Timaeus, FG

    The only thing that is keeping Russia afloat is their nukes/large army, oil/gas, and the bare chested dictator. They are a deeply brainwashed people that has been embarrassed in a similar way to how Germany was embarrassed after WW1, just through different circumstances.

    When I read the comments on the Russian sites (yes I am a Russian speaker) - the vast majority is rah-rah-rah, "we are great", "Putin is amazing", "destroy Ukrainian savages", etc. They are the most brainwashed people currently on Earth, aside from maybe North Korea, but they don't have the same excuse because they actually have the Internet.

    The Kremlin parrots are all over the American/World news sites trying to spread their propaganda, but everyone knows that Russian troops and Russian heavy weapons are being used in Ukraine. They have succeeded in uniting a vast portion of Ukrainian people (many of whom used to at least like and sympathize with the Russian culture) in hating them.

    Good job Russians. What's going to happen when your bare chested dictator is gone? You will have nothing then. Russia produces so little that they have much more in common with the Arab dictators than with the West and Asia. The Western/Asian capital is fleeing as fast as possible and it is only a matter of time until their standard of living slides to almost USSR levels.

    And you are exactly right about the large pro-Putin contingent here - their comments are all above me.

    •  Russia already failed in the 90's (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cybrestrike, ER Doc

      That's why it has a strongman leader now.

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:28:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What about the Chinese Sheep (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Last Years Man

      They believe that it is their destiny to rule Southeast Asia.

      China has asserted territorial rights over land that belongs to our allies, no different than what Russia is doing in Ukraine.

      Difference is, 50% of global commerce passes through South China Sea and East China Sea, making it of strategic value to the US.

      Ukraine has very little value to the US.

      My point?

      Let's focus on containing China's territorial ambitions in Southeast Asia.

      Let Germany take care of Russia.

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

      by PatriciaVa on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:38:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Great comment. (0+ / 0-)

      We're at each other's throats at times in I/P diaries, but I agree completely with you here.

      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:27:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  practically speaking it would be impossible (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc, Timaeus

    for the US to defend the Ukraine on the ground.

    We do have a right however to offer other ex Warsaw pact and ex USSR states assistance as practical. Places like Poland and Latvia are right to be nervous. As it may well be that we cannot be everywhere all the time.

    There is an axiom from I forget whom and I'm paraphrasing badly, that Russia is almost impossible to conquer but easy to contain.

    And I am Kilrain of the 20th Maine. And I damn all gentlemen. Whose only worth is their father's name And the sweat of a workin' man Steve Earle - Dixieland

    by shigeru on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:10:56 AM PDT

  •  It's one thing to defend Russia's actions (9+ / 0-)

    it's another, as some commentors have done, to predicate your entire argument on the idea that "the invasion is not happening." An argument built on willful denial of reality will not stand. If it turns out that Russia is undeniably invading Ukraine, then what? How does that affect the argument?

    •  With that said (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shigeru

      I don't think anything can be done to stop this. It's a full on proxy war now. I say let Putin have it and let him be undone by his own overreach.

    •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Last Years Man

      Caution is required, we are not dealing with a run of the mill situation.  My understanding, based on the NY Times report, is that these may be allegedly "off-duty" Russian troops, and the official Russian position (at least presumably given that it is RT) is that there is no incursion, but I hardly trust the Russian government.  The OSCE mission only has updates through yesterday, but allegedly Paul Picard said  that they had not seen evidence of Russia crossing the border with troops and tanks (again this is from RT so take with grain of salt):

      Meanwhile, the OSCE has announced that it’s calling an emergency meeting in Vienna – for the second time in August.

      When the head of its Ukraine mission, Paul Picard, was asked if the monitoring team saw any evidence of Russia crossing the border with troops and tanks, the answer was “no.” He told journalists of round-the-clock surveillance by a team of 16 people. The team said “we are hearing shooting, but it’s difficult to tell just how far.”

      Of course I think this entire situation is insane and there are no good actors or winners here.  
      •  16 people providing (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        round the clock surveillance of a border that is over 1200 miles long. Clearly, they may not be the best source of information at this time.

        Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

        by OIL GUY on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:20:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

          But that doesn't mean it isn't a valid consideration. And keep in mind, those are just the monitors who work in shifts to make sure that they are on the ground 24/7; they also have staff assisting them:

          The Mission consists of over 100 civilian unarmed monitors from OSCE participating States; they are supported in their work by local staff from Ukraine. The team works on a shift basis to ensure cover on the ground 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The Mission’s Head Office is in Kyiv; monitors have been deployed to Kherson, Odessa, Lviv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Kharkiv, Donetsk, Dnepropetrovsk, Chernivtsi, and Luhansk.

          Link

          •  Thank you for your very informative (0+ / 0-)

            explanation on the role of the OSCE. These are brave people to venture into a war zone unarmed.

            However, I still think the Russians could easily slip across a 1200 mile border without the OSCE observing them. The OSCE seems quite focused on one part of the border. I'm sure they are stretched quite thin trying to cover that area. This incursion occurred further south near Crimea.

            Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

            by OIL GUY on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:28:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  How do Russian soldiers (4+ / 0-)

        spend their summer vacation?

        Invading Ukraine, of course!

        Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

        by OIL GUY on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:24:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  the invasion IS happening and has beeb IMAO. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Last Years Man, bear83, Timaeus

      Once Crimea went it was inevitable. Oil, gas and wheat. Russia needs all 3.

      And I am Kilrain of the 20th Maine. And I damn all gentlemen. Whose only worth is their father's name And the sweat of a workin' man Steve Earle - Dixieland

      by shigeru on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:50:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Russian NGOs (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus

      have now documented about 400 Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine.  That one ambush of a Russian convoy in Snizhnye on August 13 killed over a hundred of them.

      It's embarrassing.

  •  Putin seems determined to have a civil war on his (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shigeru, OIL GUY, Timaeus

    borders. Why is this a good thing? Trying to relive the glorious Afghanistan years? Russian hawks/American hawks, equally idiotic & shortsighted.

    I'll tell you right out, I am a man who likes talking to a man who likes to talk. - Kasper Gutman

    by rasbobbo on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:20:39 AM PDT

  •  Russia... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wayoutinthestix

    clearly doesn't get the picture.

    The U.S. didn't spend all of that money to stir up a coup against Ukraine's democratically elected government for nothing.

    U.S. diplomats were not caught on tape plotting the new government of Ukraine for a test run.

    The U.S. and its European proxies are serious about having Ukraine in the "fold".  

    Russia needs to understand this.  The American Empire - when it desires to bring a country or region under control - will not be stopped.

    Evil Putin, meddling in affairs he should best leave to the U.S.

    The 1% are Purists: They only support Candidates that Deliver Results They Can Bank On. Don't they know they should compromise? /sarcasm

    by Johnathan Ivan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:24:50 AM PDT

    •  Or it could be that Putin is equally as meddling (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shigeru

      and equally as "evil". I don't see why one side or the other needs to be a good guy here. They're equally complicit. The west took advantage of the trade referendum to create the conditions for a coup. Putin took advantage of the chaos after the coup to create the pretense for an invasion. Ukrainian civilians are caught in the middle of a proxy pissing match. I say a pox on both their houses.

      •  So question, if I may: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wayoutinthestix

        What would the U.S. response be if Russia were caught pushing for the overthrow of the Mexican government and replacing it with Kremlin stooges?

        Would the U.S. then refrain from intervening so as not to "meddle"?  

        What Putin did is respond to the U.S. led efforts to bring Ukraine into the West's sphere of influence.  

        The U.S. and its European Client states lit the match and set fire to a region on Russia's doorstep.  And now many Americans are all to happy to play into the "evil putin" meme which serves to distract from the U.S. involvement in causing the situation to begin with.

        'Murika!

        The 1% are Purists: They only support Candidates that Deliver Results They Can Bank On. Don't they know they should compromise? /sarcasm

        by Johnathan Ivan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:01:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  When the cuban missile crisis happened (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bear83

          we set up the blockade and had the missiles removed without invading Cuba. As well I note, there have been an increasing number of countries in central and south america whose governments have allied themselves with Putin and CHina rather than the West. So in fact, what you are talking about has already happened and is still happening. We did not invade as a response - not because we are good people or whatever, but because to do so would be incredibly stupid. What Putin is doing, in the long run, will turn out to be incredibly stupid.

          •  Amazing how supportive of NeoCon strategies (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice

            DKOS gets when it's a D in office.

            I wonder.. if we had caught diplomats under Bush planning / supporting a coup in Ukraine.. would the Dem base be so quiet?

            Somehow I don't think so.

            The 1% are Purists: They only support Candidates that Deliver Results They Can Bank On. Don't they know they should compromise? /sarcasm

            by Johnathan Ivan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:18:36 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Also it's naiive to think that Putin didn't have (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timaeus

          ambitions on Ukraine and several other European nation states before this happened. He has himself been clear that he did. The coup provided him a pretext to act but he would have found another one either way. So you could argue that 'Murika played into Putin's hands by assisting the coup. I would be sympathetic to that. Just don't expect me to buy into Putin's propaganda any more than I buy into ours.

          •  However (0+ / 0-)

            what I think is more likely is that the west knew Putin would overreact and are trying to goad him into over-playing his hand. If that's the case, it may be working.

          •  You forgot to add.. Putin set the whole (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            protectspice, shigeru, Lib Dem FoP

            U.S. involvement up in Ukraine as a mere pretext to invade.  All part of 11th dimensional chess.

            I'm starting to think Putin tricked us into invading Iraq.

            The 1% are Purists: They only support Candidates that Deliver Results They Can Bank On. Don't they know they should compromise? /sarcasm

            by Johnathan Ivan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:17:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  If you find a dollar bill on the street (0+ / 0-)

              and pick it up, would it have taken 11th dimensional chess to make the other person drop it? An opportunity presented itself, he took it. One act of provocation results in another and vice versa. This is a game as old as time.

            •  doubt that but am sure they were happy to see us (0+ / 0-)

              bogged down in yet another quagmire. And still we have others calling for more and more ME involvement.

              If we look at a map and draw some lines we can see we're so overextended that we couldn't defeat Canada without redeploying forces. (Sorry Canada).

              The old adage sow the wind, reap the whirlwind certainly applies now. We may as well get used to reaping for the 12 years of sowing the neocons did.

              This is simple snookers and we're getting snookered. Again.

              And I am Kilrain of the 20th Maine. And I damn all gentlemen. Whose only worth is their father's name And the sweat of a workin' man Steve Earle - Dixieland

              by shigeru on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:44:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Um. That's not Putin's pretext. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lib Dem FoP, Tony Situ

              He knows that "The US made me do it" is laughably weak.  Outside of a few people on daily kos who believe the cause of everything bad in the world is the US, it's not going to work.

               He'd rather stand on something people understand, like his vow to protect all Russians no matter where he finds them, and oil.

              Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

              by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:11:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Using your logic, (3+ / 0-)

          the United States should invade Mexico to prevent Mexico from maybe one day becoming part of a defensive alliance of which Russia is a member.

          That's whats happening now in Ukraine. They have not joined NATO, but Russia is invading because they might sometime down the road.

          Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

          by OIL GUY on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:14:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's a Russian military post in Cuba right now. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheLizardKing

            Nobody cares.

            Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

            by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:11:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How many Russian missiles in Cuba? (0+ / 0-)

              How many US/NATO missiles in countries surrounding Russia?

              •  Plenty, actually, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheLizardKing

                if you include submarine based missiles and Cuban territorial waters.

                How many US/NATO missiles in countries surrounding Russia?
                Fewer than Russia missiles in Russia.  

                Any other questions before you come up with your predictable statement that Ukraine had it coming because United States?

                Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

                by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:22:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  Evidence of a coup? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger, Timaeus

      All I hear is condescension and contempt for the Ukrainian people. There is a group on the left that seems to believe that Ukrainians are idiotic peasants who couldn't possibly want to remove a leader who ordered dozens of protesters killed and then broke a deal to peacefully resolve the issue and absconded with hundreds of millions or billions of dollars which he stole from the country.

      I take it you think Occupy Wall Street got off too easy, since you're ok with Yanukovich having snipers shoot the protesters.

      For all of the "American exceptionalism" crap on the right, it's just disappointed that so many on the left think that nothing anywhere in the world happens unless the CIA wills it. I give people more credit than that.

      Russia needs to understand this.  The American Empire - when it desires to bring a country or region under control - will not be stopped.
      But the Russian empire, which intervened military in Georgia, Moldova and now Ukraine is free to kill as many innocents as it wants.

      I'm assuming you were a strong voice in support of the Iraq war, since opposing that war but supporting Putin's elective war would make you a hypocrite of the highest order.

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:18:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We never did find out who was (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shigeru, ER Doc, fran1

    responsible for shooting down that passenger plane, either.

    "Gentlemen, let's get the thing straight, once and for all. The policeman isn't there to create disorder; the policeman is there to preserve disorder." Richard J. Daley.

    by Publius2008 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:26:05 AM PDT

  •  NATO has posted their allegations, and sat photo's (3+ / 0-)

    Here,

    http://usnato.tumblr.com/...

    The key basis of their allegations, is that the forces must be Russian,

    because of T72 Uprated tanks, which the Ukrainians don't have, so the Federalist's couldn't have taken them from the Ukrainians,

    Even tough you can see one here, on parade post behind the Ukrainian President,

    http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/...

    And that the Federalists are operating their artillRy in a trained Soviet manner, which given that many are ex Soviet Military, is pretty thin gruel.

    •  old (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Claudius Bombarnac

      Check the date on the images, they are a week old.  If any invasion occurred it happened last week.  Why didn't Ukraine say anything last week?

      don't drone me, bro

      by BradMajors on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:08:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The older the better for one of the photos (0+ / 0-)

        One of the "proofs" that the tanks must come from Russia is that Ukraine supposedly doesn't have T-72 tanks. The link proves otherwise.

        https://translate.google.com/...

        On the background yelling on the fact that the video with T-72 tanks irrefutably proves the participation of Russian tanks in the war in the Donbas, Sergei Burkatovsky draws attention http://serb 2.livejournal.com/217344.htm-L , as one of the T- 72 "aggressors" crept very close to Poroshenko cunningly hiding behind the Ukrainian flag.

        Of course, advocates will continue to pretend that the Donbas in fighting the junta's just different modernization of the T-64, but from the perspective of the stories about the invasion of Russian tank armadas, yet promising heard stories about dozens of T-90 (but which has not been seen not filmed), which really is not from Ukraine, rather than about the T-72, which it has in storage is enough.

    •  So where did this military force come from? (0+ / 0-)

      There are no separatist forces near there. An armored column of tanks, self-propelled artillery and APC's just materialized out of thin air inches from the Russian border and opened a new front? This just miraculously happened to support Russian backed separatists whose own leaders claim that 3-4000 Russian troops "on holiday" are part of their forces? Just happened miraculously as said separatists were on the verge of losing their main strongholds?

      Those 9 Russian paratroopers who were captured by Ukraine just happened to BY ACCIDENT stray 15 miles over the border in military formation?

      This is just getting ridiculous. You sound exactly like those Iraq War hawks that claimed that Saddam HAD to have WMD's even though all the evidence was proven wrong.

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:22:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you have been following, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        protectspice

        Vinyard Saker, Colonel Cassad, (pro-Federalist Milbloggers) and WarinUkraine, MilMaiden, (pro-Nationalist Milbloggers), or even the dregs, like Sturmvolk,(Ukrainian Fascist Milbloggers),

        The Ukrainian Military tactic has been to send armoured columns in to seize, hold and clean lightly defended towns deep in the Luhansk and Donbass. Accompanying them are "National Guard" Volunteer Battalions, to do the "cleaning".

        The majority of the Ukrainian Army troops right now, are the product of the Third National Mobilization, (draft) in 8 months, have 6 weeks training, sub standard gear and equipment.

        The "National Guard" Battalions are privately funded Units, of varying size, 100 to a max of 800 men, (not really battalions), varying quality of training and are lightly armed,( no tanks, arty, mostly travel in private cars and commandeered buses.

        Most of the conscripts and volunteers are in their late teens, early 20's.

        Initially, they are up against the local Federalists, groups of 50 to 100, lightly armed, but squad heavy with snipers, AGL, ATR, MANPADS and MRRs.

        Most of the Federalists are in their mid thirties to early fifties.

        So, the Nationalists go charging in, sweep aside a few blockaides, set up their tanks and artillery as perimeter defence and try to start clearing house to house.

        The Federalists resist in key sectors, most often if you have seen the vids, by squads, sweeping streets, using rifle and auto grenades as short range artillery, and using local cover and intimate local knowledge, to use MANPADS and MRRs to take out critical armour at key positions.

        As this is happening, the rolled up Federalist blockaides return, ranging units close the road in and mobile QRF's start to show up from other local towns, villages and the center Forces.

        Quite quickly, (in the beginning a week, now, often a day), what started as a 2500  person armour heavy but poorly trained strike, hold and cleanse, on a Federalist town defended by a hundred, becomes  2500 Nationalists, trapped in positional tactical urban combat with a strategically and tactically superior but tiny Federalist group, while outside the town, they are surrounded by 800 to a thousand Federalists with more and more tanks and artillery.

        The Nationalists retreat from the urban area to more open areas, often the suburbs or outskirts of the town, dig in and call for relief, supplies, air support, which never comes, as the road in is closed, and the Ukrainian Army has exhausted their reserves. The tanks, BPM's and APC's run out of gas, the artillery runs out of shells, and eventually, the Nationalists make a run for it with what ever they can carry in trucks, buses and cars.

        There is a Facebook page out there from some guy in the Azov Battalion, about the attack on Slovansk. They lost 4 BPM's, two tanks, two buses, three trucks and a 120mm SPA to mechanical breakdown just on the drive up and had to abandon them at the roadside. When they "hit" the town, they went in "wild", shooting at anything that moved, with half of the Azov guys riding on top of the armour, because of the breakdowns. Within the first few minutes, two BPMs and on tank were hit, with over 10 Azov guys killed and over 40 wounded. Needless to say, riding on a tank in urban combat is very, very stupid. It's stupid for the tank, because the infantry is supposed to be out front and flanking, to protect the tank from MANPADS, RPGs and MRR's. It's stupid for the Infantry, because even a light weapon like a RG that can only chip paint on a tank, kills and wounds a lot of infantry as the ricochet effect ensures none of the shrapnel or blast is wasted.

        So, back to the Facebook page, after two days of frustrating urban fighting, they start running low on ammo, supplies and fuel, call for support, retreat to a suburb and dig in. their abandoned BPM's and tank show up and start to shell them. (Recovered and repaired by the Federalists), they start taking Grad and artillery fire, and all they get from Command is orders to take the town and empty promises.

        After 5 days of ever increasing hell, they, as groups, not under command, grab what ever trucks, cars and buses that can run and make a run for it. He figures that less than half the Battalion made it, has no idea what happened to the conscripts, and all he wants to do now, is somehow win the war, then shoot the Generals and politicians that sent them there.

        And this is from a Sloboda Maidenite from Kiev.

        The tactics the Ukraine Military are using are Blitzkrieg/Gulf War/Iraq War deep thrusts.

        The tactics the Federalists are using, they call "Cauldrons", but are actually Motti tactics that the Finns used against the Soviets during The Winter War.

        One is fast, impulsive, one could say, covered with a sense of in Invulnerability, and politically driven.

        The other is careful, slow, methodical, grounded in intimate local knowledge, and driven by defence of home, community and family.

        So, why do the Federalists tanks run and the Nationalists ones don't?

        For the same reason I am always rescuing my nephew when he goes on a road trip. I drive a 30 year old POS older than he is, he drives a 10 year old coupe. I check brakes, cooling, oil, timing, belts for wear, tires, suspension, steering and fuel before heading out to rescue him, regularly service and maintain the vehicle, he just get's in the car and drives.

        Why can the Federalists repair armoured vehicles and the Nationalists can't?

        The Federalist's arn't twenty some conscripts with 6 weeks training, they are ex-Soviet Conscripts and NCO's with 5 years or more in, and have spent the last 20 so years in the Donbass keeping old Soviet gear, from mining equipment to tractors, running on belts and braces, plus, one of the largest Soviet tank boneyards, (over 6,000 tanks, from T37's to T80's, parked and rusting), is in the Donbass.

        So, where did the tanks and artillery come from, that close to the Russian Border?

        From the closure and sweep of the Southern Cauldron. When those 432 Ukrainian Army and Border Guards fled into Russia, and the 1400 Ukrainian Army/National Guard field out of the Donbass, they left behind all their armour, all their artillery.

        The Ukraine Military, according to a Polish Milblog site, that is doing an armour count,(claims, counter claims, photo proof, site verification, serial number tracking), has lost, (destroyed, mobility kills, captured, surrendered, breakdown, abandonment) over half the operational armour they started the war with, and the Federalists have managed to recover and repair about half of that.

        So, the Federalists, who started the war with one 1950's , non operational JS3 mounted on a plinth, now have 68 T60's and 18 T70's, all repaired or recovered ex- Ukrainian Army tanks,

        Plus one operational, 1950's JS3, including ammo recovered from the Saur Moglia Salt Mine arms storage.

  •  I'm calling it right here and right now (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ER Doc

    Putin's ultimate goal is reclaiming as much Soviet territory as possible in time for the centenary of the Bolshevik Revolution in three years.  Crimea and the Ukraine are just the start.

    This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

    by Ellid on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:00:29 PM PDT

  •  I agree the land bridge was always in the cards (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus

    While some might think this has something to do with Ukraine's gains to the north and the need to resupply them, that has more to do with the timing of this invasion than being the inspiration and cause for the Russian moves.

    I'm quite sure that this was always being planned for.

    Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you: Armisticeproject.org

    by FischFry on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:12:40 PM PDT

  •  Your use of the phrase (0+ / 0-)

    "the large pro-Putin contingent here"  is a nauseating smear.

    Play chess for the Kossacks on Chess.com. Join the site, then the group at http://www.chess.com/groups/view/kossacks.

    by rhutcheson on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:14:34 PM PDT

  •  UN Sec Council Meeting Right Now (5+ / 0-)

    Acc. to BBC livefeed:

    Undersecretary General for Political Affairs, Jeffrey Feltman says:

    UN "cannot ignore" reports of Russian military involvement, which he says would be a "direct contravention of international law and the UN Charter".
    Australian ambassador:
    says there is "overwhelming evidence" that "significant numbers" of Russian troops are operating in Ukraine, and that Russia is arming separatists with "sophisticated" weaponry.  He said Russia must withdraw its troops and support for the separatists.
    Samantha Powers:
    Speaking about the claim that Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine are on leave from their military units, Samantha Power, the US ambassador to the UN, says: "A Russian soldier who chooses to fight in Ukraine on his summer break is still a Russian soldier."
    Powers calls for more sanctions from the G-7

    UK ambassador says Russian has clearly violated Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Russian ambassador blames Kiev for undertaking a "reckless policy" and "conducting war on its own people."  He goes on to say that instead of blaming Russia, the US should check its own geopolitical ambitions.

    Meanwhile, PM Renzi of Italy has spoken with Putin and now David Cameron and both agree the European Council which meets on Saturday needs to address the situation.

    To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

    by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:16:22 PM PDT

    •  Russia called out Poroshenko... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      protectspice, fran1

      for inflaming the situation by demanding capitulation from the rebels. They also criticized the coup gov. for not releasing the MH17 data.

      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

      by HairyTrueMan on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:42:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ukrainian and Russian ambassadors at UNSC (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger, Timaeus
      Mr Churkin, Russia's ambassador, asks if Ukraine's demand for separatists to simply lay down their arms was an attempt to "provoke" more violence. Mr Pavlichenko says Ukraine is "ready to engage on a whole range of issues". He says the only issues which are "not negotiable" are Ukraine's sovereignty, territorial integrity and its "European aspirations".
      Meanwhile, Canada's foreign minister denounced Russian actions as "unacceptable, irresponsible and utterly reckless"
       

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:46:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  UNSC (0+ / 0-)

    UNSC emergency is meeting.  Live coverage concerning the non-existent invasion:  http://rt.com/...

  •  It was undeniable two weeks ago. (11+ / 0-)

    The separatist government has repeatedly given information about the contingents of Russian troops sent to them and active in their ranks.  I'm glad your diary's gotten some traction, but for the doubters - I don't know how many times I have to link to their own press conferences* discussing the numbers of Russian troops in their ranks before you'll acknowledge that this isn't just NATO/US propaganda. Russian military is in Ukraine. They've been there for weeks (if not longer). Putin, following his pattern on Crimea, will not acknowledge it publicly until after the situation is resolved, one way or another. So what matters now is the nature of the response.**

    * Tellingly, the first time Zakharchenko talked about the Russian military contingent in the Donbass militia, he provided no caveats. Then the Kremlin sent Peskov to issue an unequivocal denial, and now Zakharchenko has amended his statements to call them all "volunteers" or "vacationers" (heh), even though they're active military. They're trying to ride a very thin line of "unofficially official", and for all the supposed Western media rush to war, it's taken weeks for this story to actually gain traction in our media.

    ** Which is probably more of what we're seeing already: Poroshenko using this as a platform to ask for more Western aid. The separatists have been losing the battle over the East, and without the Russian troops, it was just a matter of time. Whether they can hold out now depends entirely on how many troops they've been infused with, and how much Moscow is willing to extend its neck over this.

    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

    by pico on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:22:29 PM PDT

    •  I think once Russia commits (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger, Timaeus, AoT

      a significant amount of troops, it will become less and less likely that they will retreat and let Ukraine regain their territory. That would be humiliating because everyone knows this is really Russia's fight. To lose it would be a severe hit to Putin's prestige.

      Which is very unfortunate, I was hoping Russia would not get overtly involved but we are on the precipice.

      If Russia decides to commit, the Donbass region would become a permanently occupied Russian territory. I am not sure if Ukraine would fight a full blown war at that point, because that's what it would be with huge risks for Ukraine.

    •  Thank you. (3+ / 0-)

      It's amazing to still see so many dead-ender denialists and victim-blamers.  The fact of some new kind of strange Russian invasion has been clear since February, and crystal clear in recent weeks.

      Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
      Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

      by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:13:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I had a really unpleasant conversation on here (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus, terrypinder

        a few weeks back that really drove home how unproductive internet chatter can be. I assumed - wrongly - that using primary sources from the Russian side would make some things unequivocal, but even in the face of clear, unambiguous evidence... Ugh. I don't understand it (or rather: I don't want to understand it.) I've got that sour taste in my mouth again. I think this'll be my last comment in the diary. Good luck, man.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:54:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you're smarter and more knowledgeable (0+ / 0-)

          than me about this, although this is very important for me, my country, and my law practice, and I try to follow things.  

          This diary is getting to be kind of dead, but I encourage you to state your mind in future Ukraine diaries!

          Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.--Lu Xun
          Support the BDS Movement--www.bdsmovement.net

          by Timaeus on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:37:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  To all apologists for Russia and its actions: (8+ / 0-)

    Recognizing reality doesn't make you pro war.

    Being anti war doesn't mean you have to pretend that an invasion is justified.

    Being anti war doesn't mean that you have to say that the war was provoked.

    Being anti war doesn't mean that you have to say that a mutual DEFENSE treaty is an act of aggression.

    Being anti war doesn't mean that "the US would do the same" is an argument for war, since if you're anti war, you'd be against "the same" no matter who did it.

    Being anti war doesnt' mean that you get to ignore the sordid nationalism and history of imperialism that is stoked by Putin because it's not US nationalism and imperialism.

    Being anti war doesn't make it necessary to blind yourself to this actual war for oil.

    Being anti war isn't being pro everyone but the US.

    And Russia's invasion of a neighbor isn't a cold war.  It's a hot one.  It's only cold to the people who live far away and are trying to find some sort of historical revisionism to poo poo tanks over a border.

    Someone actually admitted on DK, "Yes. If it pisses you and the other Greenwald-Tweet-pearl-clutchers off, it's smart." Wow. Just....wow.

    by Inland on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:32:08 PM PDT

  •  Putin could bite a baby and some people here would (5+ / 0-)

    still defend him.

    WTF does he have to do for some so-called liberals and so-called peace advocates to stop defending this SOB?

    Just doing my part to piss off right wing nuts, one smart ass comment at a time.

    by tekno2600 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:33:28 PM PDT

  •  "Zero Proof" - The "Russian Invasion" Of Ukraine (7+ / 0-)
    http://www.moonofalabama.org/...

    So there was an "invasion", distributed by major news agencies, which then turns out to have been a translation error or an intentional Poroshenko 'screw up'.

    Notice that one author of the NYT piece above is Michael Gordon, who, together with Judith Miller, wrote sensational reports about proof of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The current head of NATO who is promoting war against Russia, Fogh-of-war Rassmussen, said 11 years ago: "Iraq has WMDs. It is not something we think, it is something we know".

    These folks and the western news agencies that promoted the WMD in Iraq claims are now claiming a Russian "invasion" in Ukraine only to retract it when the damage is done. Warmongers. All of them.

    •  the lies (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      berko

      How many times do people need to be lied to before they wise up?

      Here is another one of the non-existent Russian invasions:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

      don't drone me, bro

      by BradMajors on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:52:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That was never proven to be factual (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        berko, protectspice, ChadmanFL

        That report was from 2 weeks ago and it fizzled out. Where are the actual photos of the crossing as well as damaged Russian equipment and killed Russian military? Didn't the Telegraph reporters have their cell phones to take pictures?

        The Mysterious Destroyed "Russian Armored Vehicles"

        Said differently: The Guardian and Shaun Walker have certainly not be neutral in their reporting and  publishing about the Ukraine conflict. There is no reason for the Russian army to invade Ukraine especially not in near an aid-convoy which is covered by dozens of "western" journalists.

        But this afternoon the Ukrainian government claimed that its troops overnight had destroyed a some Russian vehicles:

            Ukraine's president, Petro Poroshenko, told David Cameron in a phone call on Friday that a column of Russian armoured vehicles had been destroyed.

        Now everyone in the media is jumping from the Shaun Walker report to the destroyed "Russian armored vehicle" to claim that it was a Russian military convoy that was attacked and destroyed within Ukraine.

        But all armored vehicles in Ukraine are "Russian armored vehicles" as they all were constructed during the Soviet times. All the 123 tanks and APC destroyed in this conflict, most of them from the Ukrainian army, were "Russian armored vehicles". The insurgents use such vehicles as does the Ukrainian army. So even if Poroshenko's claim is true, and there was no proof presented for it at all, there is actually nothing factual that lets one connect "Russian armored vehicles" to actual Russian army vehicles.

  •  Russian Invasion? (0+ / 0-)

    We should send the Ferguson MO PD to deal with that. They want to play soldier, there's their chance!

  •  "large pro-Putin contingent here?" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ChadmanFL

    yeah, you lost me. that's ridiculous. i don't trust you now. FAIL.

    "An inglorious peace is better than a dishonorable war." -Mark Twain

    by humanistique on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:01:05 PM PDT

  •  Czech Rep supports basing more NATO troops (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timaeus

    in Eastern Europe (From BBC Livefeed):

    The Czech Republic would support Nato strengthening its military presence in eastern European member countries, Prime Minister Bohuslav Sobotka was quoted as saying on Thursday. "If Poland or the Baltic states would wish it, then we would support such an initiative," Mr Sobotka told the Idnes.cz website. "After the Russian annexation of Crimea we understand the worries of the Nato member countries directly bordering Russia or having a Russian minority on their territory."

    To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

    by dizzydean on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:26:32 PM PDT

  •  A land-locked future for Ukraine (0+ / 0-)

    Possibly, it could even be a future as a rump state covering the inland western half or third of the country with Lviv as its capital.

    Ukraine already lost roughly half its coastline, several major ports and significant Black Sea mineral rights in March when Russia annexed Crimea.
    And the Russians will go all the way to the Moldovian border and the Dniester river, whose eastern bank aka Transnistria is already a de-facto Russian territory.

    It was a really bad idea for pro-western Ukrainians to antagonize Russia and believe the bear would stay pat and politely acquiesce at being stripped of its strategic hold on the Black Sea.

    It's a little bit as if all the Caribbean islands from Port of Spain to Freeport decided to control who can cross between the Atlantic Ocean and the Caribbean Sea and hope the US would say nothing about losing unimpeded oceanic access to the Gulf of Mexico. It would not fly (or more exactly, the bombs would start flying very quickly).

    Russians consider the Black Sea is theirs and has been theirs since the 18th century. And they are going to get it back. I don't know if it will happen over the next three months or over the next thirty years, but this is going to happen. And there's strictly nothing the West will be able to do about it.

    I deal in facts. My friends are few but fast.

    by Farugia on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 03:56:03 PM PDT

    •  Except that didn't happen (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timaeus, FG
      It was a really bad idea for pro-western Ukrainians to antagonize Russia and believe the bear would stay pat and politely acquiesce at being stripped of its strategic hold on the Black Sea.
      Russia had a lease on Sevastopol until 2042, with a guaranteed renewal option even beyond that.
  •  This is getting surreal. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    charlatan

    If you want a clear guide of whose misinformed opinions you can safely ignore on DKos, just take a look at the handful above still making excuses and repeating verbatim the laughable cover stories from Russian state media. They are seriously denying that an invasion is in progress and calling the US the aggressors here as Russian tanks, artillery, and infantry pour over the Ukrainian border. They are the Baghdad Bobs of Daily Kos. Remember this as your cursor hovers over the recommend button after they pontificate on some other more complex subject. If they can't see something this obvious right in front of their faces, how could they possibly have a real grasp on murkier questions? Just because somebody can hit the right buzzwords doesn't make them trustworthy.

  •  OSCE monitors make no mention of invasion (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice
    http://www.osce.org/...

    Latest from OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) to Ukraine based on information received as of 18:00 (Kyiv time), 27 August 2014

    This report is for media and the general public.

  •  The Powerful ‘Group Think’ on Ukraine (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice
    http://consortiumnews.com/...

    Exclusive: Official Washington’s “group think” on Ukraine – blaming everything on Russian President Putin – is so dominant that even independent thinkers like Paul Krugman get sucked into the collective misinformation, reports Robert Parry.

    By Robert Parry

    When even smart people like economist Paul Krugman buy into the false narrative about the Ukraine crisis, it’s hard to decide whether to despair over the impossibility of America ever understanding the world’s problems or to marvel at the power of the U.S. political/media propaganda machine to manufacture its own reality.
    ...
    As the crisis deepened early this year, Putin was focused on the Sochi Winter Olympics, particularly the threat of terrorist attacks on the games. No evidence has been presented that Putin was secretly trying to foment the Ukraine crisis. Indeed, all the evidence is that Putin was trying to protect the status quo, support the elected president and avert a worse crisis.

    Moscow supported Yanukovych’s efforts to reach a political compromise, including a European-brokered agreement for early elections and reduced presidential powers. Yet, despite those concessions, neo-Nazi militias surged to the front of the protests on Feb. 22, forcing Yanukovych and many of his officials to flee for their lives. The U.S. State Department quickly recognized the coup regime as “legitimate.”
    ...
    But resistance to Kiev’s new rulers soon emerged in eastern Ukraine, which had been Yanukovych’s political base and stood to lose the most from Ukraine’s economic orientation toward Europe and reduced economic ties to Russia. Yet, instead of recognizing these understandable concerns of the eastern Ukrainians, the Western media portrayed the ethnic Russians as simply Putin’s pawns with no minds of their own.

    I’m told that Moscow has provided some covert support for the eastern Ukrainian rebels (mostly light weapons), but that Putin has favored a political settlement (similar to what has been proposed by German Chancellor Angela Merkel). The deal would grant eastern Ukraine more autonomy and accept Russia’s annexation of Crimea in exchange for peace in the east and some financial support from Russia for the Kiev government.

  •  France Invades British Colony in America (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice

    Now that was a real invasion with troops landing from French ships to help the "rebels" attain self-determination. Only in that case there was no popular vote for independance. And in this case, I believe that the "rebels" would accept a Federation with Western Ukraine allowing them sufficient autonomy.

    The West is on the wrong side of this issue and the Rebels will prevail as it is their homes and cities that are at stake.  Transference to Russia as the big bad evil guy will fail in the long run. Just more Russia bashing. Can we please just get back to bashing China?

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