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Via atrios:

Staff Sgt. Jason Rivera, 26, a Marine recruiter in Pittsburgh, went to the home of a high school student who had expressed interest in joining the Marine Reserve to talk to his parents. It was a large home in a well-to-do suburb north of the city. Two American flags adorned the yard. The prospect's mom greeted him wearing an American flag T-shirt. "I want you to know we support you," she gushed.

Rivera soon reached the limits of her support.

"Military service isn't for our son. It isn't for our kind of people," she told him.

Excuse me, but that disgusts me.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:57 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  What kind of peoples is she? n/t (none)

    The more understanding one posesses, the less there is to say and the more there is to do.

    by Alohaleezy on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:49:11 PM PDT

    •  The kind... (4.00)
      who proudly professes her support for the war, vilifies those who oppose it as anti-American and then runs for cover the minute the war has any tangible relationship to her flag filled lawn world.  

      Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. Jean-Paul Sartre

      by Stevo on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:53:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Precisely... (4.00)
        ...she supports George W. Bush and his policies, so why should her family have to make any sacrifices? Isn't that for the people who lost the election? You know, the ones that aren't as patriotic or as well off as her family is?

        Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. -Tom Paine

        by Alumbrados on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:55:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oddly, they don't even think that (none)
          after all, we are quiche-eating 'Jean' kerry supporters.  They can't even make the sort of logical construct you have spelled out.  It's just too complicated for their little tiny minds.  All they know is it's a dirty job and someone esle has got to do it.
      •  I bet (4.00)
        That their SUV is covered with all kinds of magenetic ribbons too.

        ... and when they came for the liberals, there was no one to stand up for me.

        by UndercoverRxer on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:57:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I must be a patriot (none)
          My car's got a flag on its ass!

          The news happens 3 hours sooner on the "left coast"

          by bleeding blue on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:18:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Magnetic ribbons (none)
          I missed the memo that said only BUSH SUPPORTERS could display magnetic ribbons giving support to the troups.  Using this argument gives credance to the idea that ONLY people who support Bush and the war support the troops! I actually believe that displaying a flag or a car ribbon can say just the opposite of what this administration stands for.  
      •  Is this really apparent from the article? (3.23)
        I don't mean to be obtuse.  I just think this article (and by association this diary) is rife with suggestion and extremely unclear.  Big fucking deal.  We know the attitude and hypocrisy hinted at here exists; in what way is this damning or illuminating?

        I support the troops too.  If I had a son of enlistment age, you'd have to go through me to get at him to serve in this criminal clusterfuck of a war.  I might not phrase it this way, but who's to say she did, either?

        "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

        by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:58:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your kind (none)
          don't serve?

          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

          by Armando on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:03:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, please (3.22)
            That's not what I was saying and you know it.

            You frontpaged a big "so what" of a diary.  Of course the rich in this country serve disproportionately.  Of course they feel entitled to have the disadvantaged sacrifice for them.  And this is news how?

            "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

            by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:06:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  This is a so what diary? (4.00)
              I so beg to differ.

              It is a very big deal IMO.

              The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

              by Armando on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:10:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes (4.00)
                It's a huge issue because it speaks to the detached mentality that leads us to war.  Easy to pontificate about the necessity for war when you have no personal stake.  This is why I would love it(never happen) for a reporter to ask Bush why his daughters haven't enlisted- given the moral necessity, freedom, honor and all.  It speaks to hypocrisy in the starkest terms.

                Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you. Jean-Paul Sartre

                by Stevo on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:14:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The starkest terms? (4.00)

                  The starkest terms are things like a feller in the Oval Office who went AWOL sending children to their death.

                  The starkest terms are things like Cheney, who had "other priorities" during Vietnam, engineering a war for purposes of profiteering.

                  Et cetera.

                  The starkest terms are not a lady in a doorway in a tony Pittsburgh suburb allegedly insinuating her boy is too privileged to serve.

                  "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                  by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:18:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Alexander the Great (4.00)
                  In ancient times, and even in some not so ancient, leaders LED the troops into battle. I think that there would be a lot fewer wars if our leaders had to be at the front lines, instead of behind a desk talking about casualties in a detached cold-hearted manner. As a matter of fact, why not petition Congress to enact a law stating that anyone VOTING for WAR must also fight in it, including themselves. We can always elect more Congressmen, and a new President if they become casualties.
                  •  I never liked this line of thinking. (none)
                    Sure, our histories and mythologies of bold leaders always represent them as charging into battle.  I don't, however, think it's a realistic ideal.  I don't want my diplomats and legislators to be warriors.  I want them to be mature, thoughtful, and well-educated.  On the same token, I hate when every election cycle the issue of whether or not a candidate has fought in Vietnam comes up.  Who cares?  Are you only a worthy citizen if you sign up for war?  This line of thinking is ridiculous.

                    Also, I am more frightened of the zealot who believes in his cause so much that he would go to the front-lines.  At least in politics, you can cut bait if things go too wrong (well, maybe not our current administration).  For a true-believer, however, they will not give up for anything.

              •  What is a big deal? (3.38)
                That a rich lady in Pittsburgh is alleged by a feature reporter to have said that "her kind of people" don't serve in the military, when we don't even know except for the reporter's pre-established context that she is rich what she might have meant by that?  My God.  We need to find this woman.  We need to find her, and ask her what she meant by that.  And if it's what we think she meant by that (that rich people don't serve in this war), then by God, this is the proof we need to...well, I'm not sure what, but it's HUGE!

                Come on.  You're right about one thing: assuming that everyone who's assuming is assuming correctly, it's disgusting.  Is it news?  Does it in any way provide leverage?  Is it a story with legs?  Or is it just another of a million windmills that feels vaguely nice to tilt against?

                Explain to me what I'm missing, besides, "sigh, typical Republicans."

                "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:15:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well (4.00)
                  I don't want to fight with you but I see the story as demonstrating that this woman's attitude is not emblematic of the very type of attitude that allowed the Debacle to occur, the "it doesn't require a sacrifice from me and mine so go get em" attitude that has led us where we are today.


                  The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                  by Armando on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:19:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree (none)
                    It is emblematic.

                    Along with thousands of other things.

                    Forgive me, Armando...I'm a little pissy this evening and I was hoping for something a little more meaty, I guess.

                    "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                    by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:22:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  See (4.00)
                      I think this is, in real terms, the meatiest post I have posted in some time.

                      It cuts to the heart of the problem.

                      We really disagree on this.

                      But I know your heart is in the right place so no need to belabor the point.

                      The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                      by Armando on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:26:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Agreed! (4.00)
                        And you have identified the problem (or maybe I should say disconnect from reality) that so many of those so-called war supporters have.  Specifically, that they perceive themselves as too priveleged to do anything other than mouth gop bs as opposed to acting on what they believe.  If that woman really supported what the actions of the troops and the present adminstration, she would have encouraged her son to enlist!  But, no, she's too good for that, due to her socio-economic status.  So the burden of doing the actual fighting falls to someone else!

                        "Free speech is not to be regulated like diseased cattle and impure butter." William O. Douglas.

                        by Street Kid on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:37:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm with ya. (4.00)
                      The thing itself is no big deal.  And while, yes, it's a nice crystallization of a certian kind of hypocrisy, it's just something someone said.  It just doesn't rise to the level of outrage for me.

                      I go to Armando for real outrage, man.  This is empty calories.

                •  Jimreyn (3.00)
                  Why don't you sack up and argue your point instead of throwing a 1 at me?

                  "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                  by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:40:33 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  1 granted! (1.75)
                    For shameless ratings-moaning.

                    Trying To Maintain Rationality
                    econatheist's bloggity blog blog

                    by EconAtheist on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 11:56:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, blow me (none)
                      All I was doing was suggesting he might want to -- gee, I don't know -- actually articulating a fucking opinion instead of hiding behind a bullshit number.  How fucking lame it is to pull shit like this with someone who takes the time to articulate their point of view.  I will never stop calling sissy twerps like this to the mat.  I don't care how many 1s you throw at me, jackass.

                      "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                      by The Termite on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:18:52 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  This kind of story (4.00)
                  is ageless.  140-some years ago, "her kind of people" bought surrogates to do their fighting for them.  

                  Nowadays the arrangement is a little less frank.

                  Why is it important?  First of all, see how shallow and blithe her dimestore patriotism is.  That same mentality got thousands of the children of the "little people" killed in Vietnam.  When war hysteria is thick, we could all use a reminder--before we do something rash, such as give a chimp carte blanche--of how ginned up and insincere it all is.

                  Secondly, we are Democrats.  We are supposed to stand for the "little people," be utilitarian . . . and this is class warfare, because too few people have too goddamn much.  

                  Someday Betty Burbs and "her kind of people" are going to have to step aside, take a cut, share the wealth.  Lest we have any compunctions about afflicting the comfortable, we need to remember that Betty thinks it's okay for lower income children to die in her children's stead.  As does President Bush, she probably has some Calvinist delusions of deserving what she has, and may even see the soldiers dying as members of some degenerate trailer nation that deserves its ill fortune for having been born in disfavor.  One never knows what the rationales are.

                  As Democrats, it is our duty to remember her words and do our best to make her life a little less comfortable, so, I don't know . . . we can all have healthcare, maybe?  

                  "A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." --President Eisenhower

                  by rhubarb on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:43:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Or if they did serve (none)
                    they bought a commission. They were automatic officers with training or without, sitting on their pretty horses with their swords. They weren't the grunt footsoldier with a musket.

                    " 'Vox populi, vox Dei' translates as 'How the hell did we get into this mess!?' "---Robert Heinlein (accuracy of quote not guaranteed)

                    by mirrim on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:18:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  More dots to connect (none)
                    This story, Cindy Sheehan's story, the Philly cop's story . . . I think any illustration of the war that appears in the context of everyday people is a big step closer to outing this travesty. The weekly croaking of Rumsfeld the Frog or the intermittent wandering stammer of the Village President is mind-numbing and distracting to the point brilliance on their part. But stories like this definitely serve the purpose of making people think about the RE-A-LI-TY (think of Bush's phoneticism) of this war.

                    Keep it real Armando.

                •  adsf (4.00)
                  And if it's what we think she meant by that (that rich people don't serve in this war), then by God, this is the proof we need to...well, I'm not sure what

                  Its the proof we would need to let Middle America know exactly what some people in this country think of their fellow man. "Better you than me". Yeah, its an obvious truth, but one which is never expressed so nakedly as when this woman said "our kind of people".

                  Remember, Bush ran on the platform of being a "uniter, not a divider". Its plainly observable that he lied about that. But its exceedingly rare that it gets expressed so openly.

              •  If I am not willing to serve or send my two sons (4.00)
                to die (as I would have been willing to do to find bin Laden in Afghanistan after 9/11)then I cannot support a war. We need to close this disconnect between those who support the war and those who actually fight in it, otherwise we will continue to have wars fought by the indentured servant underclasses.  

                "If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention."

                by adigal on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:52:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Two words: (none)
                  CANNON FODDER.

                  (I typoed GANNON FODDER. Where was my keyboard during THAT punfest?)

                  This is so our history of sending the poor to do our dirty work that it's immortalized in cliche.

                  A society of sheep must beget in time a government of wolves. Bertrand de Jouvenel

                  by Little Red Hen on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 05:16:44 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Supporting the troops means (4.00)
                  • you don't support this war
                  • you do support veterans benefits
                  • you buy American products so the troops have jobs to come home to when and if they get back
                  • you dispell the falsehood that we are in Iraq because of 9/11

                  The GOP betrayed us all.

                  by lubarsh on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:15:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  In that it was stated to a Marine (3.90)
              who she was willing to send over there with all her polyester support.

              Do you need flash cards?

              Marine on one side.  On the other, a upper class hypocrite in red-white-and blue who's perfectly willing for him to die in Iraq because he's not one of "her kind of people".

              I credit his Marine discipline that she didn't get a sock in the jaw.

              A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. - Edward Abbey


              by boadicea on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:17:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Newsflash! (none)
                The rich are callous!

                Film at 11!

                "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:19:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And they like to pretend they're not. (4.00)
                  So call 'em on it. Every damn time.

                  A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. - Edward Abbey


                  by boadicea on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:21:11 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I just don't understand this... (4.00)
                  Or we going to stop noticing that Bush is a hypocrite because it isn't news?

                  And it's clear that the problem with this woman is not that she's not willing to have her own children killed, it's that she's a blooming hypocrite.

                  "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

                  by Cathy on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:00:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  and everytime (none)
                  this is mentioned, the right screams "Class war language"!

                  Every single time anyone in the US brings up the failures and injustices of capitalism, the chorus is overwhelming - you are using the language of class warfare, you are instigating problems!"  They deny the injustices, they insist this is the most moral and fair and reasonable system and that all injustice is imaginary.

                  This woman's quote should be the "let 'em eat cake" of our time.  Their kind don't do without dental and health care, their kind don't suffer.  "Only the little people pay taxes".  And "Only the little people die in Bush's war".  

                  She said what they all think.  It's time it was publicized and maybe - just maybe - their will finally be some righteous outrage in this country.

                  •  So maybe we ought to point out (none)
                    that you ignore the so-called under classes at your own risk.

                    That is what breeds revolution.

                    Like Dylan said
                    When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose

                    And watch out when more and more people have nothing.

                    The Russians learned that. So did the French. So did the British -- and you'd think we would too, since WE were one of the ones who taught the Brits.

                •  The rich aren't callous. (none)
                  Proudly ignorant racists fucks who don't give a good god damn about other people and their sacrifices are callous.  

                  The GOP betrayed us all.

                  by lubarsh on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:18:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  However (none)
              it IS what she was saying.

              Ladies and gentlemen, meet Mrs. Joe Republican, your standard freepercreep.

            •  I'm not so sure (4.00)
              She's rich.  Rich people don't have flags stuck in their lawns, at least not in Beverly Hills.  In fact, I don't know what she is.  Quaker?  Doesn't sound like it.  Insufficient information for me to get disgusted.  I just don't know what her kind is.  Given the last 4 years, I want real information before I hate someone, and it's not in this excerpt.  Sorry.

              "Figs! In the name of The Prophet, figs!" E.A. Poe

              by moltar on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:26:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Can't speak for Philly or Bev Hills, but... (none)
                ... I drive a dry cleaning delivery route through the wealthiest 'hoods in and around Memphis, TN, and you can't walk ten feet in one direction on some lawns without tripping over a bunch of flags.

                I don't think there is any one single stereotype for "rich people," whether it has to do with flags or with chickenhawk support for the war.

                That having been said, I think Armando is probably spot-on, and whoever suggested that we find this woman and just ask her what she meant before we get all bent out of shape was thinking in the right direction.

              •  I AGREE (none)
                ...although this does support what I choose to believe is true about many who support the war with their lips but not their bodies (or those of their loved ones)...there is little evidence for me to KNOW it happened as reported...we don't need to do the very thing that we criticize this administration and right wing bloggers, who just link to one another for credance, for doing.  
              •  Speaking as a Pittsburgher... (none)
                the lady probably lives in a suburban community called Wexford.  The place is filled with Hummer dealerships and McMansions.  Her son almost definately went to North Allegheny HS, which is in one of the best school districs in the county.  Believe me, this lady leads a comfortable suburban life.

                Anybody-But-Santorum 2006

                by daaawi on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:19:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  don't play that game (none)
            Be cautious with this.  Kelly leans very very far to the right on these issues and was possibly looking for a spin in response to a very successful rally held last Saturday by the Pittsburgh Organizing Group against Military Recruitment.

            <blockquote. Antiwar activists present an obstacle, as well. Demonstrators disrupted Army Reserve recruiters at Carnegie Mellon University in April, and the local chapter of the American Friends Service Committee plans a "nonviolent day of direct action" a week from Saturday to "shut down military recruiting in Pittsburgh."</blockquote>

            and, oh yeah, the American Friends Service Committee does do anti-recruitment work but they are not organizing the August 20 protests.

            Folks should keep their heads up for the great work going on in Pittsburgh (and largely led by talented high schoolers) against the aggressive recruitment.

        •  Giving her waaaaaaay too much latitude (4.00)
          Maybe you don't mean to be obtuse, but you are. I don't mean to be insulting to you, but I'm just making an observation ...

          While it's true that the shortness of the article lacks details because much more could have been written. And, of course there is an implication there. The question is, Are we being given the wrong implication?

          When a recruiter visits a really nice suburb of Pittsburgh and the mom forwardly states, "[the military] is not for our kind of people", it's quite obvious that she believes that her family is above the rest of us. Not disqualified, but above us all. Really. What other reason could there be? Is she the matriarch for a family of dwarfs? If the kid was only 4'6", the recruiter wouldn't have been going out there. If her family was full of blind people, the kid would be disqualified and the recruiter would have marched on, so to speak.

          So, what other reason that SOCIAL CLASS could this woman be referring to? She didn't say that the military isn't for her son because he has been taking Prozac for too long and has threatened homocidal killings of his classmates. Nope, she didn't say the military wasn't for HER SON and HERE'S WHY. She said that it wasn't for her kind of people.

          Yep, everyone else on this board is right. She's got flags in the yard, ribbons on her car and stars on her breasts, but she thinks that the people who join the military are of a low social class or have below average intelligence with no other options in life, or both.

          What's sad is not that she was trying to talk her son out of it, or talk the recruiter out of recruiting her son, but rather making an assumption about herself and everyone else. I'm sure she took that mentality to the voting booth and kept us in the morass we are in now.

          •  Question (none)
            If the reporter had not offered that she lived in a nice neighborhood BEFORE the quote, what would your assumption be about what she meant?

            It is a shittily written story, and while the implication contained therein is nauseating, it is a waste of time to handwring over the fucking thing.

            "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

            by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:21:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Her neighborhood only enhances the article (4.00)
              Even if the reporter had not mentioned the characterists of her neighborhood, I would have made the same assumption, SOCIAL CLASS. Why?

              First, how many mothers of families earning less than, say, $30K/year, would say that the military is not for "their kind of people". Signing bonus, GI Bill. The soon would probably make more money than the family. Nope, that mother would have been begging off the recruiter to simply not have her son go to Iraq. Class, or her kind of people, would not have been the words or thoughts coming out of her mouth.

              Second, given the above, in what setting would you imagine a mother saying that the military is not for her kind of people? We know it's not the mother standing on the stoop in front of their 1920s run-down house in Oakland (a not-so-nice section of Pittsburgh). Nope, the family probably lives in Fox Chapel.

              •  Jeeze, people! (4.00)
                ... I don't live in a fine Philly neighborhood. I live in a kinda still okay, fine by me, marginal NM neighborhood.

                Would this then forbid me to say the war isn't for my kid (if I had one) or people like us?

                I know who's volunteering for and fighting the  war. I live in Albuquerque near enough to Kirtland AFB -- those volunteers would be the men and women of last year's high school graduation class. Or, the boys and girls, rightly put from my perspective.

                But it's just wrong to imply that all the rich are pigs and all the fighting janes and joes are humble saints.

                We are who we are, good. bad, patriotic or don't-have-anything-better-coming up. Rich and poor, we gave ourselves a volunteer army and some thought it was great.

                Well -- here we are. You want a volunteer army, you get the ones who want to volunteer. No one else is forced to go.

                It can change with a draft. If you think that's a good idea, work for it.

                If you dont' want that, and you don't want the war then stop reinforcing the class strife strategy of the administration.

                Talk to people. Someone talk to the rich lady.

                Someone go say, "Can you explain this to me, help me understand? May I explain my feelings to you, help you understand?"

                Wear a fuckin' flag shirt if that's what it'll take to get you onto her lawn to talk.

                Sheeesh. Don't do Bush's divide and conquer work for him if you don't have to.



                Nancy Virginia Varian, Editorial Director DemSpeak

                by Nancy Varian on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:05:09 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't know that people are implying that (none)
                  I havn't seen anyone say that all rich folk are pigs, or self absorbed, or believe they are better than everone else. But many do. Enough that the GOP has won two elections catering to their rich benifactors.

                  This country is following the Mexico model. Won't be too long and we'll look just like them: a few very rich folk and everyone else dirt poor.

                  It didn't used to be this way you know. During WWII the rich were taxed heavily and for the most part they accepted it. But the last 30 years of "Looking Out For Number One", "greed is good", right wing hate radio, and on and on. There is a larger divide than I believe there used to be and the right has nurtured that divide.

                •  Pittsburgh, not Philly (none)
                  But does location or proximity to wealth or a military base matter?

                  I know who is volunteering for the military now, less and less and less people. Because the worthlessness of this falsely premised war is finally slapping people in the face, despite the best efforts of the government and the mainstream media to dampen down the "bad news."

            •  class war (4.00)
              "our kind of people" IS a statement of class.  

              We didn't need a description of her house and yard and neighborhood... that phrase tells it all.  Her kind is so extra special... like Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rice, and all the other privileged fat cats... they do not serve in the military, they do not sacrifice, they do not risk anything for anybody else... and certainly not for some nebulous "public good" such as the defense of the nation which provides an opportunity for them to get rich from the work and sacrifices of others.  

              The only thing they serve are their own filthy interests.


              •  It is class warfare -- (4.00)
                -- and Bush is laughing his ass off while half the nation runs around cussing or sneering at the other half, all this on the strength of the assumptions,  prejudices, lies and and fury and they fuel.

                You think it doesn't make them happy to know "their" consitutency is loathed like this? That's ammo you're giving them. Next time he says, "They hate us for our freedom," us will be him and his constituents and they will be us, the folks now so colorfully known as Blue staters.

                You think they don't love it each night going to sleep knowing the people in this country are so torn apart from each other that we will never talk, never figure out that there is common ground between us somewhere?

                Are you a Dem or a Progressive, Carolly? Ever piss you off to be sneered at as a latte liberal? Hate to be called a Bonston snob even though maybe you've never set foot in the place?

                Hate it that people in the middle of the country who have never spoken a word to you, near you or even know your face assume you're a rat's ass of a souless degenerate because you might have voted for someone other than Bush -- and therefore are damned to hell and very likely the whole reason the world is falling to pieces?

                You sound like a good person. I'm willing to bet no one would be anywhere near right making those judgements about you. But a goodly chunk of the nation would make them -- just based on what they might guess or assume about how you live, how you vote, where or whether you worship, who you sleep with or don't.

                Bush and his boys sell all that, in two brands ... and too many of us buy it, in both brands.

                Mamma Bush has herself one smart chimp, laughing all the way down the road while this nation tears itself to pieces rather than tries to find even the slimmest inch of common ground that might not be immediately obvious.

                No one here knows that lady in Philly. Including me. No one here knows whether they could sit down with her, find the commond ground, and have a civil talk instead of a civil war.

                Common ground? What common ground?

                It sounds to me like you're both mothers. It sounds to me like neither of you wants to see a son or daughter go to war.

                It's a place to start. If we'd only start.

                Right now, though, happy, happy George. It's all working out fine for him.

                -- Nance

                Nancy Virginia Varian, Editorial Director DemSpeak

                by Nancy Varian on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:39:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I loved your post (none)
                  and I wish I could give it more than a four, because ultimately you're right.  In a beautifully expressed way.

                  But this one point:

                  Common ground? What common ground?

                  It sounds to me like you're both mothers. It sounds to me like neither of you wants to see a son or daughter go to war

                  I think you're mistaken on, because the difference overriding that common ground is that she thinks YOUR son or daughter should still have to go, though.

                  But not hers.

                  Visit - a blended double-tequila margarita of pop culture & LA nightlife.

                  by KB on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 07:15:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Common ground -- good point and place to start (none)
                    Thanks for the comment. It fills in my late-night thinking and typing lapse very nicely.

                    I do agree with you, the common ground is really really slim. They are both mothers -- that's where they start. (OK not these two women now, but any two with the same diffrences of opinion.)

                    "We are mothers. I don't think my son should have to fight. I'm fortunate that he doesn't have to, and we can support the troops with donations to the VA, the PVA or other good causes. But I feel lucky that we do have an army to fight for us.

                    "And you must be grateful for the army, too. Look at the chances your child will have for college after she comes home. After after all, isn't that a lot of what the volunter army is about? Chances for education they might not get."

                    Well, yeah, you'd want to hit her with a brick. But if you did, you get nowhere.

                    So the other mother could talk about her own reality, and she could calmly speak of how she'd love to see her kid have a great education and how she'd do anything to know her daughter will come home alive and well and ready to get on with life. "But something's ... wrong here. It isn't working anymore. People aren't volunteering."

                    Then she could quietly wait for the answer that won't come.

                    In that moment, she could gently shift the subject to getting on with life ... which we'd all like to do. But in the end, no mother can take that for granted if the world is now as dangerous as we know it to be. In the end, everyone's baby has to show up.  

                    (No anti-Bush rant, there is no commmon ground.)

                    These imaginary mothers of mine will not end up being best friends, but one of them might start the long night lying in bed thinking.

                    Maybe Rich Mother won't be thinking about Poor Mother's kid. Maybe she will, who knows? Not me. But it's likely that, given human nature, she'll be thinking about her kid and his future and realize that rich men and poor men died in the Towers on 9/11. (I am NOT tying Iraq to that, just saying distaster lurks all the time now because of Bush's idiotic response to 9/11.) Then she'll think about the future of the country ... maybe.

                    Maybe she'll understand that there's only one kind of "people like us" -- we the people. Maybe she'll talk to her neighbors and fellow Rich Moms. Maybe.

                    Never know till we try.

                    Thanks for keeping the conversation going. :-)

                    -- Nance

                    Nancy Virginia Varian, Editorial Director DemSpeak

                    by Nancy Varian on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:23:40 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Irrelevant. (4.00)
              It doesn't matter what her socio-economic status is. The idea of "our kind" of people is the sort of repugnant and enthusastic classism that needs to be eliminated.
              •  How do you know.... (4.00)
                ...she didn't mean pacifist?  Or left-handed?  Or lesbian?  Or even Democrat?  It may have had to do with class...and it may not have.

                We don't know what she meant, because the writer didn't bother to ask (didn't bother to ask!!!).  All we know is what the reporter insinuated.  Which makes for a shitty piece of reportage, and unworthy in my opinion of a front-page reference by one of our best contributors.

                "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:00:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  How do you know (none)
                  that the reporter "didn't bother" to ask? You're falling into the same trap you're skewering others for falling into.

                  The reporter might well have asked that question, and put the woman's answer into the story only to have it cut for space (happens all the time).

                  The more likely scenario, keeping in mind the Pentagon's abiding hostility toward media coverage of recruiting: The reporter likely had to do a hell of a lot of finagling to be allowed to tag along on this visit, possibly to the point of promising not to ask questions for fear of scaring off a recruit. Reporters don't operate in some void where they get to be assholes and no one thinks anything of it. Gathering information is a constant negotiation with real people, taking into account real emotions and motivations. Just getting that scene probably took a lot of hard work. It's possible that it didn't, too, but my point is that you don't know. I love the smell of irony in the morning.

                •  Because if I answered (none)
                  I would have said used "I,me,us,we" not "our kind".  In effect she is not just speaking for her and her family but a certain group, and if that group had a name, I'm sure she'd have used "pacifist, Quaker, Jehovah's Witness, peacenik, hippy, Libertarian or Green" unless she was embarassed to tell the public.

                  "Our kind" draws a line in the sand.  It implies there is "our kind" and "those others".  And if "our kind" doesn't serve then obviously "those others" do, should, must serve.

                  And only by asking this lovely lady directly can we truly understand the meaning of her words.

                •  That was my reaction as well (none)
                  Given the current momentum among the left for counter-recruitment, she could just as easily be a progressive.

                  Need more context.

            •  This is not handwringing.... (none)
              handwringing is whiny helplessness, this is outrage, the mildness of it is only due to the lack of surprise, but I don't think we ought to be ho hum about it either.

              "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

              by Cathy on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:04:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  oops... (4.00)
          Despite your intent, that comment is obtuse.  Are you saying you suspect the quote is made up or paraphrased, or are you tone-deaf to the class snobbery of the woman's words?

          I'd like to believe she was misquoted because her comments are disgusting. She wasn't quoted as saying she supported the troops but was against the war, which would be an excellent rationale for keeping her son out of Iraq - and seems to be the strawman position you stake out.

          And more to the point - I support the troops in Iraq but I do not support the efforts of recruiters to convince wavering kids to sign up for this most historically stupid of wars.

          I'm glad Armando, among others in the blogosphere, passed this along to us.  Your quibble falls flat.

          barn's burnt down; now i can see the moon - Basho

          by sfgary on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:23:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A few points (4.00)
            and then I'll let this drop.

            First of all, I believe this attitude exists.  I do.   And it disgusts me.

            However, as badly as this article is written, it surprises me that it has made it this far, and I highly doubt it will find traction anywhere else, for a few reasons.  First, it's anecdotal hearsay, and therefore "proves" nothing.  Second, the woman's quote is almost cartoonish, and that combined with the fact that her name is not provided (nor anything else about her) leads me to believe that it may have been fabricated to make a point (certainly this is not the first you've heard of things like this on either side of the political spectrum, is it?).  It just reeks of emptiness.

            Contrast this with the scene in F9/11 when Moore was asking Republican Congressmen whether they were going to offer up their children to serve.  He made this point.  Made it well.  This reinforces it, certainly, but is it front page material?  Not in my opinion.  It's another windmill.

            "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

            by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:50:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  conditionally granted (4.00)
              I get your point.  But most of what's on the front page here and elsewhere falls into the category of trivia.  In the current climate of national enmity (Americans don't hate anyone as much as they hate other Americans) this article serves as grist for the mill.

              If your complaint is that all of this is a mind-numbing, time-wasting mire... I agree.  But it makes no sense to wade into the swamp and cry out, "It's muddy where I'm standing".  We're all in the swamp.  We know it's muddy.  DKos might help the democrats get back into power but it's doing nothing for the peace of either its members or its detractors.  DKos is where we go to get righteously angry.  We have to to the gompa if we're looking for peace and rationality.

              barn's burnt down; now i can see the moon - Basho

              by sfgary on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:05:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well put (4.00)
                Sometimes I'm in the mood, supposes I, and sometimes I ain't.

                "The American people will trust the Democratic Party to defend America when they believe that Democrats will defend other Democrats." Wesley Clark

                by The Termite on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:08:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Why all the complaining about how badly... (4.00)
                written the thing is, it's not pulitzer material, so what?

                We talk about many anecdotal examples that aren't proof, and aren't well-written.  But, it's outrageous behavior, and it's worthy noting that.  I don't think this woman is only preserving her children, she's saying that there's a class that fights and a class that cheerleads.

                Perfect.  That's what's in the White House, a cheerleader.

                "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine

                by Cathy on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:08:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Is this really apparent from the article (4.00)
          I agree with you.  Where does it say she supports bushie?

          Unless you've been a wife and mother of someone in war (I've been both) you don't have a clue.

          I was lucky mine both came home.

          To Cindy and all good luck, God Bless and God speed.

        •  It is always interesting to see a different view (4.00)
          of a question here, Termite.  It is getting so lately that anything that differs slightly from the expected is trolled and flamed.  Thanks for the different point of view.
        •  No valid use for the article (4.00)
          I will agree with a point that I think you implied, and in turn I'm making the assumption ...

          There is no valid use for the story. Was she the wife of the governor coming out on the front lawn making that statement? Obviously not. Did she physically assault the recruiter after making that statement? Nope. Police were not involved. No law was violated.

          The only reason for putting that in the article was to incite people like us on this board, and perhaps a few more, to joust this anonymous lady with our fingertips. Maybe on the margins the writer wanted to help the recruiter make this woman feel poorly about her mouth when she read her own words in the paper. I doubt that worked.

          There are people from all social classes in the military and she doesn't wholly represent any of them. I will grant you that there are is a disproportionate number of servicemen/women from lower income families. It's simply not true to state that no one from rich families ever goes into the military. Just because Bush fucked it up doesn't mean they all do.

          However, her comments give us the general mood of most of the ignorant jackasses that voted for Bush in the first place. They are people who just don't believe that they pay too much in taxes, but that they shouldn't pay any at all, they believe in sticking their proverbial dicks out of the pants at the rest of the world while somebody else is holding the weapon.

          Obviously, my own distaste for her remark is simply magnified against a certain group of people that she represents. The vast majority who hate "those damn liberals who are trying to turn over America to communists" but are happy to go along with the Bush form of facism.

          Believe it or not, I'm a really reasonable guy.

        •  It's really FUCKING clear... (4.00)
          We love you and your war, but we don't want "our people" to die in it.  There's our support.  That's how patriotic we are.  So go find someone else to die for the presidentTM.

          If you don't support the war, fine.  If you support the troops, fine.  But don't support the war and not the troops.

          There's your hypocrisy.

          Flying the flag, wearing the flag, and telling the recruiter, "No Thanks!"!?!

          Obviously, the son has a concience, he told the recruiter he was interested, probably from listing to the positions of his parents.  They caught wind of it, and "changed his mind."

          FUCK 'EM.

          "Every day, in every way, I think I'm going to vomit."

          by seronimous on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:06:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sheesh!!!! (none)
            Since he is at or near the age of being old enough to serve in the armed forces (and mommy and daddy changed his mind) it is safe to assume that he is at or near voting age.  (That is, if he even bothers to register to vote.)  But assume he does, is he going ask for mommy and daddy's permission on which candidate to vote for?  

            "Free speech is not to be regulated like diseased cattle and impure butter." William O. Douglas.

            by Street Kid on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:39:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hard to say... (none)
              Every male in my direct line of descent (and many others, as well) had served in the military, but when I joined up (without parental consultation, I might add) things were not so "pleasant" around the old seronimous family home...

              And that was years and years ago.

              I'm sure the pressure now has reached an all time high.

              Nevertheless if you're broadcasting your "patriotism" don't be surprised when someone calls you on it...

              "Every day, in every way, I think I'm going to vomit."

              by seronimous on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 09:20:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Hard to say... (none)
              Every male in my direct line of descent (and many others, as well) had served in the military, but when I joined up (without parental consultation, I might add) things were not so "pleasant" around the old seronimous family home...

              And that was years and years ago.

              I'm sure the pressure now has reached an all time high.

              Nevertheless if you're broadcasting your "patriotism" don't be surprised when someone calls you on it...

              "Every day, in every way, I think I'm going to vomit."

              by seronimous on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 09:23:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Disagree with your posts here (3.25)
          but gave you 3s to help offset some bad mojo people are abusing the rating system by giving you 1s.


          Mitch Gore

          Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

          by Lestatdelc on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:50:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Excuse me Know Nothing...? (4.00)
            My counteracting ratings and explanation deserves a 1?

            Fucking unbelievable.


            Mitch Gore

            Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

            by Lestatdelc on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 11:40:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No kidding! (none)
              What the hell was the 1 rating for?  What crap!  Please grow up.  Lestatdelc:  love your posts keep doing what you do.  Freaking unbelievable sometimes.  

              "They want the federal government controlling Social Security like it's some kind of federal program." - G.W. Bush; 11/2/00

              by pilotweed on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 12:40:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I defintely think it's clear from the article (none)

          Here's the original article.

          I live in Pittsburgh. The suburbs to the north are filled with wealthy republicans whose SUVs are filled with Bush stickers and yellow ribbons. She meant exactly what it sounds like. Her son isn't meant to join the army, he's meant to join the college republicans.

          "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

          by Auntie Mame on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 05:19:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  First thing that jumped into my mind? (4.00)
      What kind of peoples is she?


      They dont serve, they just cheer.

    •  Oh I know, I know!! (3.83)
      Ask me. Oh Oh! (think Horseshack, welcome back)

      Kotter: Okay, Horseshack, what kind of peoples is she?

      Horseshack: She's a well-bred Republican lady who has her nails done and her hair too! And she drives a Mercedes, a Lexus or an SUV and has cocktails at 4 on the dot, and falafel sex sometimes when the kids are away. She's never had an abortion that she will admit to; and her idea of church is to dress up in something pastel or black and bow her head (hairsprayed!) with white gloves steepled in prayer. She wears red lipstick and perfectly accentuated eye shadow (no Harris over blue for her, no sirree). Someone in her family actually made a lot of money doing something, but it probably wasn't her. She thinks of someone like you or me (Horseshack) as the 'little people'. The idea of Watts terrifies her. She believes ghettoes should be nuked, and welfare is for black ladies in Cadillacs who steal from hard working Republicans like her.

      How'd I do?

      •  Welcome to my world (4.00)
        You just described my friends and neighbors, and well, a few things about myself (the nails, SUV, that kind of thing. lol)

        I don't even want to talk to them anymore... I try to talk about the kids, other stuff, but I just want to yell at them and tell them what fools I think they are.

        I'll never forget the comment I heard in the kitchen of one of those big suburban houses -- "Well, I think the Democrats are an immoral party."

        I honestly felt ill. It was all so fruitless.

        I don't think I've ever had politics put such a wedge between me and others. I defended Clinton, hated the Impeachment, but they weren't all right-wing nutty about it all -- but since 9/11 and the Bush years, its been completely different. I'm firmly convinced 9/11 warped people. I really do.

        •  We have neighbors like that, too... (4.00)
          ..which is how I know what they're about, plus, of course, my parents tend toward that...what's strange is it used to be a generational thing, now it's more and more a political or even class thing. Really, the distinction is all about appearance, the appearance of propriety is more important than propriety itself, the appearance of morality more important than behaving in an ethical fashion. I'm sure what disgust a lot of folks in Crawford now is the 'mess' that Cindy Sheehan is making of their cozy little desert neighborhood. So there's a part of me that wants to respond to this rejection angrily, savagely, even. With a kind of attitude best epitomized by the Stones'... Heartbreaker...I want to tear your world apart.

          There's another part of me that wants to explain all of this in a way that can somehow change their priorities, make them less rigid, make our world less polarized around some fairly petty differences. Somehow I think 9/11 injected a level of fear that enforces the rigidity, though, fear we've really not seen in this country since, say the late 50s when they used to do their atomic bomb drills. And everyone had 2.5 kids and what was good for GM was good for America. That's Cheney's world, and Rumsfeld's too. Militaristic, fearful, 'religious', and, most importantly, absolutely obedient.

        •  You forgot to mention (4.00)
          that as soon as they walk out of Sunday services they are gossiping about every woman who had the nerve to show their face in church...or swearing at the little old man who is taking too long to pull out of the parking lot and delaying her trip to the 'club.'

          Now watch what you say, they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, fanatical, criminal...-Supertramp, Logical song

          by mammalicious on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:59:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In Westminster Abbey (4.00)
            John Betjeman knew the kind well:
            In Westminster Abbey

            Let me take this other glove off
            As the vox humana swells,
            And the beauteous fields of Eden
            Bask beneath the Abbey bells.
            Here, where England's statesmen lie,
            Listen to a lady's cry.

            Gracious Lord, oh bomb the Germans,
            Spare their women for Thy Sake,
            And if that is not too easy
            We will pardon Thy Mistake.
            But, gracious Lord, whate'er shall be,
            Don't let anyone bomb me.

            Keep our Empire undismembered
            Guide our Forces by Thy Hand,
            Gallant blacks from far Jamaica,
            Honduras and Togoland;
            Protect them Lord in all their fights,
            And, even more, protect the whites.

            Think of what our Nation stands for,
            Books from Boots' and country lanes,
            Free speech, free passes, class distinction,
            Democracy and proper drains.
            Lord, put beneath Thy special care
            One-eighty-nine Cadogan Square.

            Although dear Lord I am a sinner,
            I have done no major crime;
            Now I'll come to Evening Service
            Whensoever I have the time.
            So, Lord, reserve for me a crown,
            And do not let my shares go down.

            I will labour for Thy Kingdom,
            Help our lads to win the war,
            Send white feathers to the cowards
            Join the Women's Army Corps,
            Then wash the steps around Thy Throne
            In the Eternal Safety Zone.

            Now I feel a little better,
            What a treat to hear Thy Word,
            Where the bones of leading statesmen
            Have so often been interr'd.
            And now, dear Lord, I cannot wait
            Because I have a luncheon date.

            -- John Betjeman

      •  That's entertaining (none)
        Hilarious, sad and true but hilarious.

        I'm trying to decide if the people who support Bush's stupidity in all of this are just stupid themselves or deluded (they could be both, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt one way or the other).

        Bush sold an image, and they bought it. His core are all Bob Jones people (who probably think Bush is a liberal, but close enough to their own cause to vote for him). Folks, I'm an atheist. I think the Bob Jones crew and those like him have all brainwashed their followers. Praise Jesus and protect the Jews with the blood of some kid from Omaha whose parents can't afford to send him to college and his SAT scores don't attract the attention of anyone with scholarship money to hand out.

        Nope, the shinier you are, the more golden you are, the higher up you are and what a major social disaster to have your son leave his 7 bedroom, 10,000 square foot home and his own Hummer behind in order to shoot those damn heathen  muslims. (Absolutely no offense to anyone's religion is intended, just building the setting in which that thought process is born.)

        By the way, this mother is going to make one helluva satanic mother-in-law for her son's future wife. "Honey, we don't show up wearing xxxxx because we're not 'that kind of people'". I have to assume he is not gay, because she could have easily blurted that out to the recruiter. Of course, admitting her son might be gay is also an impossibility for "her kind of people".

      •  I know I'm late to the game (4.00)
        but this is the kind of woman I had to wait on the last ten years of retail I worked before I went back to college.  In the midwest, selling my soul waiting on this type at a department store, they had the nerve to treat a person like me like shit after they got out of church to go shopping.  They became so predictable...and believe me, the parking lot was FULL of SUVs and magnetic ribbons, so I'm not just stereotyping.  These women acted like they wanted to murder me if I had run out of their favorite lipstick color.  Honestly, selling makeup is what turned me into a democrat.
        •  Selling make-up is what (none)
          turned me into a Democrat.  Now, I don't know how, when or where -- but somehow that comment has to be used in the next election.  It has such panache.

          The beneficiaries are likely to be...large corporations and development firms. (O'Connor, J. dissenting in Kelo). God bless you, J. O'Connor.

          by xanthe on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 02:15:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The kind of women who benefited (4.00)
      from tax cuts for the wealthy on the backs of unwealthy "volunteer" forces' families, who not only pay taxes but sacrifice for their wealthy protected asses.

      I'm on a roll tonight on DKos because my son is vacationing in MI with his grandparents. Unusual free time.

      It has given me more hope than I've had in a long while to find that hope really is alive ... allowed by the gift of time to read in depth the often fleeting brilliance of DKos diaries/posters.

      Let me tell each and every Kossack here ... just speak. In your truest voice. Because whenever we can catch it, somebody is listening.

      Thanks Markos, the popular, influential bastard who refuses to let DKos become an ATM machine.

      When or where can I and my partner buy you a drink in Richmond VA? Better yet, I'll pull together a great meal from some of today's recipes.

      •  Hey ...your a Richmonder? (none)
        ...I live in Richmond too! I wonder how many other dKos Richmonder's there are? Maybe we should form a drinking liberally dkos section or something. You in the fan? I'm in Stratford Hills, five minutes walk from the James.
        •  Delicate, would love it and (none)
          call on all Richmond Kossacks to unite.

          I drink Liberally in the Fan, living there.

          Drop me an email from my DKos profile. The home of the Confederacy needs to rally to a new day.


    •  The proper term (4.00)
      is "hypocrite", but it's a bit mild for this case. "Worthless sack of protoplasm deeply in need of having her citizenship revoked and being renditioned to Uzbekistan" seems a bit long. "Fucktard" has a nice ring to it. Yeah, I'll go with fucktard for now.
    •  Chiming in (none)
      In case it matters to anyone, this article was on the front page of the P-G yesterday and the photo was above the fold.  

      Pretty prominent placement.  I was a little surprised.

      Closed minds should come with closed mouths.

      by Pennsylvanian on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:57:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A little context maybe? (none)
      Exactly.  I get the gist of the excerpt but it would be nice to get a little context.  What kind of people does she mean, yes.  But is the implication here also that somebody who's got flags draped all over their house and themselves are required to support their child joining the military?  I don't buy that.  If that were the case, then all of us on the left who consider ourselves patriots, should be signing up to fight too.  
  •  Amazing... (4.00)
    that the article didn't delve at all into this.
  •  Pretty much (none)
    sums it up.  The Yellow Elephant brigade is alive and well.

    "Tikkun Olam (to heal and repair the world) You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it" Rabbi Tarfun

    by RevDeb on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:50:59 PM PDT

  •  Our kind = rich (4.00)
    I swear, sometimes it seems like the only respected aspiration in this country is to accumulate wealth with as little personal risk as possible.
    •  More like our kind = white (4.00)
      and Anglo and not like you, Sgt. Rivera.

      When you are going through hell, keep going! - Winston Churchill

      by flo58 on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:28:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  my thoughts exactly (none)
        I imagined her saying "our people" and waving her flabby arms to display the nice, suburban lily-white neighborhood.

        sorry, just my first impression.

        "not for our people.  but for your people...sure, whatever.  be a dear and cut our grass on the way out, wouldya?"

        Imagine your average American. Then realize, 50% of us are below that.

        by kineticdissent on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:40:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Damn straight (none)
        How many other contexts besides race (and corporate propaganda, which doesn't apply here) do you hear anyone say "Our people"?
    •  Parody Patriotism (none)
      It's really sad that there are so many of these parodies of patriotism around, ready to grab the good from this country but unwilling to pay any of the costs, whether taxes or allowing their child to enlist. They have no idea what citizenship is.

      Democrats: Giving you a government that works.

      by freelunch on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:12:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And we're surprised... (none)

    "A man who chooses not to read, is just as ignorant as the man who cannot read."

    by TexDem on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:51:27 PM PDT

  •  Too bad there's no photo of her... (none)
    wearing her flag T-Shirt. A true patriot.
  •  aoeu (none)
    Is membership in the KKK a disqualifier to military service?
  •  HEY (none)
    Hey they got the flags and probably the cute yellow ribbons on the car what more do you want?

    Born right the first time!

    by kerry on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:52:41 PM PDT

  •  asdf (4.00)
    I neither want nor require her support.

    Putting a yellow ribbon is literally the least you can do. Put your money where your mouth is and enlist or shut the fuck up.

    by darwinsjoke on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:52:46 PM PDT

  •  Republican philosophy in a nutshell.. (none)
    ..I'll support just about anything as long as I don't actually have to get off my ass to do anything (aside from buying a made-in-Taiwan "Support the Troops" bumper sticker, if its easy to grab at the check-out counter, of course)..
  •  Three Possibilities (4.00)
    1. "We are rich and hence the little people should fight the war."

    2. "We are pacifists and hence we cannot serve."

    3. "We are [enter ethnic group here] and we don't serve."

    Either way, fucked up.  Well, except for the pacifist part.

    Jesus arrived in a black helicopter, confusing the local militia.

    by Delaware Dem on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:54:37 PM PDT

  •  Typical chicken hawks (4.00)
    I had the same discussion with a 20 ish puke who was standing at a "Support the Troops" type display in Chicago last month. The pussy said "It does not fit my plans" when I asked when he was leaving for Iraq. I spit on his shoes.

    ... and when they came for the liberals, there was no one to stand up for me.

    by UndercoverRxer on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:55:47 PM PDT

  •  Senora (4.00)
    vayase pa'l carajo.
  •  Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! (none)
    Seems appropriate somehow.
  •  after Meeting Cindy Sheehan Today (4.00)
    I cannot begin to express the level of rage that this woman's very existance causes me.....

    WTF indeed.  The problem with our country in a nutshell, eh?

    To write in plain vigorous language one has to think fearlessly, and if one thinks fearlessly one cannot be politically orthodox. George Orwell, 1946

    by deepintheheartoftx on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:57:08 PM PDT

  •  Upper Class = Off Limits (4.00)
    I grew up in a nice entitled life in the south.  Starting in kindergarden, I attended a nice "liberal-minded" private school founded by my classmates' parents.  This was during the Vietnam war.

    I vividly remember a girl coming to our class in that first year.  She wore a silver bracelet and talked about her father, who was a POW.  She was an upperclassman and I guess her father was in the Guard or Reserves.  I learned later she was a scholarship student.  I guess that explains it.

    Her speech was designed to encourage us to hate the war and despise those who sent our boys over.  That's a message I could identify with, and it set the stage for my ongoing hatred of useless armed conflict.

    However, as I'm grown now, and having met many people who can't count the number of friends they lost on two hands, I have to wonder ... in a school of over 200, why is it that not one person, not one graduate, ever went, much even died, in Vietnam?

    Because our parents were the movers and shakers, the textile kings and political croneys of the generation.  No one from my school had to go to war because they could afford to buy out of it.  Let's face it; military service in the face of a war is not something the rich want to deal with.  Let some poor slob who can't afford college die for his country.  Their sons are too busy buying it.

    Things never change.

  •  War games (4.00)
    In thinking about this kind of situation for a while, I've increasingly come to the conclusion that people like the flag-swaddled dimwit in the article view this war as a spectator sport.  They wallow in the seriousness of rooting for their team, but they think it's absurd for them to even consider making a financial or personal sacrifice.  This woman would no sooner want her son to join the military than she would be willing to suit up personally and play middle lineback for the Steelers.

    And yes, it is very disgusting.

    •  And furthermore... (none)
      I was thinking about this today. Modern battle gear is so complex and protective that it obscures the human-ness and individuality of the soldiers.

      Think of the photos from WWII, even Viet Nam. You can see their faces, their hands, their necks. You can almost see their personalities.

      Nowadays, our soldiers in full battle gear look like CG characters in a war game on my newphew's Playstation.

      They're not only "not our kind", they're not really humans. Until their heads or legs or guts get blown to bits and the blood and bone is exposed. But we don't see much of that these days, do we?

      I'm grateful that our soldiers are decked out in the best protective gear that our taxes can buy </snark> but an unintended consequence is that the protection morphs them into alien beings that look like something out of Ridley Scott's mind. They're the good aliens fighting for us but who cares when a good alien dies?

      If I were the president, if I were queen for a day, I'd give the ugly people all the money - Laurie Anderson

      by Dillie Taunt on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:21:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A great article about this (none)
      Who's Paying for Our Patriotism?

      President Bush assures us that the ongoing twin wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are worth the sacrifices they entail. Editorialists around the nation agree and say that a steadfast American public was willing to stay the course.

      Should anyone be surprised by this national resolve, given that these wars visit no sacrifice of any sort -- neither blood nor angst nor taxes -- on well over 95 percent of the American people?

      At most, 500,000 American troops are at risk of being deployed to these war theaters at some time. Assume that for each of them some 20 members of the wider family sweat with fear when they hear that a helicopter crashed in Afghanistan or that X number of soldiers or Marines were killed or seriously wounded in Iraq. It implies that no more than 10 million Americans have any real emotional connection to these wars.

      The administration and Congress have gone to extraordinary lengths to insulate voters from the money cost of the wars -- to the point even of excluding outlays for them from the regular budget process. Furthermore, they have financed the wars not with taxes but by borrowing abroad.

      The strategic shielding of most voters from any emotional or financial sacrifice for these wars cannot but trigger the analogue of what is called 'moral hazard' .. moral hazard refers to the tendency of well-insured patients to use health care with complete indifference to the cost they visit on others..

      A policymaking elite whose families and purses are shielded from the sacrifices war entails may rush into it hastily and ill prepared, as surely was the case of the Iraq war.

      Moral hazard in this context can explain why a nation that once built a Liberty Ship every two weeks and thousands of newly designed airplanes in the span of a few years now takes years merely to properly arm and armor its troops with conventional equipment. Moral hazard can explain why, in wartime, the TV anchors on the morning and evening shows barely make time to report on the wars, lest the reports displace the silly banter with which they seek to humor their viewers. Do they ever wonder how military families with loved ones in the fray might feel after hearing ever so briefly of mayhem in Iraq or Afghanistan?

  •  Absolutely outrageous but isn't that (4.00)
    typical of the Repugs and their supporters.

    I believe they did a study which showed that
    the number of republican families who had anyone
    serving in the war front was a small minority.

    I wish I could remember where I saw that.


    I dream about waking up and finding out Bush has fell through his own Butthole and hung himself :)Popeye

    by eaglecries on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 07:58:53 PM PDT

  •  The article neglected to mention (4.00) many of those shitty $5 magnetic yellow ribbons or "Bush/Cheney" bumper stickers were plastered on the back of her mini-van.

    Here's your hat... ...and here's your ass.

    by Timbuk3 on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:00:04 PM PDT

  •  Let the class wars begin (4.00)
    Let the class wars begin

    The message I want to see trumpeted loud and clear by our party is, If you're not rich and vote Republican, you are a patsy.  You have so been had.

    This should be our ad campaign, our poster:  This woman.  Over and over, shove this in their faces.

    This is the lesson of the Hackett campaign.  The privileged RW will stick with their party.  They know where they belong, what trough they are feeding at.  Where Hackett made inroads was in Appalachia.  Those are the people we should be talking to, and we should be opening their eyes big time.

    And this woman, this foul privileged bitch, let's make her our poster child for everything rotten about this nasty corrupt cabal.

  •  This says it all. (4.00)
    Just as the R/W talking points keep reiterating, "Casey Sheehan knew this could happen when he raised his right hand."

    In other words, "SUCKER!"

    The people who think this way, who say these things about the straight-shooting, honorable, MORAL Americans who make the decision to defend their country "right or wrong"?

    THEY disgust me.

    "Every violation of truth is not only a sort of suicide in the liar, but is a stab at the health of human society." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by hopesprings on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:01:42 PM PDT

  •  You didn't read the rest of the story, Armando (4.00)
    When she referred to "our kind of people," she meant people with one eye in the middle of their foreheads and two left feet.

    She meant the Marines wouldn't be able to properly equip her son.  The kid's father was 4-F during the Vioetnam era draft for the same reason.  (The kid is the product of the trophy wife, by the way.  The dad is 60 and the mother is 43.)

  •  What is the coin of freedom? (4.00)
    Someone elses blood!


    The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. ~David Friedman

    by Ralfast on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:03:45 PM PDT

  •  What kind of people is she? (4.00)
    Oh that's right, they're Republicans.  Should've known.  It's ok to be supportive of our troops and fly the American flag in the front yard and all, but it's not ok to take her son.

    I agree.....WTF?

    God damn Republicans.

  •  Chickenhawk City (4.00)
    "Why should we hear about body bags and deaths," Barbara Bush said on ABC's "Good Morning America" on March 18, 2003. "Oh, I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"

    "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

    by Andrew C White on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:12:10 PM PDT

    •  Hadn't heard that one (4.00)
      by Barbara Bush...just heard the one by Rummy where he was explaining why the media should not show the dead returing from Iraq because "Death is so depressing".

      Another holy shit moment for me during the Bush Administration years.

  •  Her kind of people... (4.00)
    are the ones who scream the loudest for tax break so funding for social service programs gets cut!

    But, her son serve in Iraq?  God forbid, that her family even consider that.  Can you imagine what the neighbors would think?

    "Free speech is not to be regulated like diseased cattle and impure butter." William O. Douglas.

    by Street Kid on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:14:11 PM PDT

  •  AUDIO RECORDING!!! (none)
    We need audio recording of these encounters. I bet it'll be a blast to play on air.
  •  This is what burns me up. (4.00)
    Her message, like the message from those drunken, ass-paddling, pompous College Republicans, is that they are the Patricians of our society.  Patricians are "too important" to die (as far as they're concerned) in a war because they're the decision makers of the future who'll make sure that the herd of Plebes gets thinned all in the name of empire and greed.

    I am so angry at people like this that I wonder if there will be a day when they'll get to feel some pain, too.

  •  Such saintly people! (4.00)
    "We support you completely! We're behind you all the way! God bless America! Now get the fuck out of my house and stay away from my son!"
  •  Our Kind (none)
    Our Kind could mean Mormons.  I like to condemn chickenhawks but I need more information.  The young men at the Neo Naz..uh..Young Republican convention, they're fair game but unless the mother said "Our Kind, Republicans", then I don't want to jump to that conclusion.
    •  Mormons? (none)
      I don't get it. There are LOTS of Mormons in the military. So many in (Army) Military Intelligence that we used to joke about the Mormon Mafia when it came to getting good assignments.

      "Don't play the rumba, and don't play the samba, 'cause papa loves mambo tonight!"

      by Chilufya on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 12:25:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mormons! (none)
        I picked something out of thin air.  It could have been "Left Handed People" for all I know.  The point is that we don't know because the article doesn't specify or name names.  It's just some amorphous mom creature that the recuiter could have made out of many different experiences or even completely made up.  It may make Kos sick but I'm just saying that I need to be a little more sceptical of the source.
  •  Such superiority . . . (4.00)
    . . . toward a woman who is well-to-do, patriotic, supports the troops, didn't want her son to serve and finally, didn't believe her kind (whatever that is) should serve in the military. Get over it, guys, focus on the message and not on your prejudices. We need to get her message out: Our kind doesn't serve in imperialisic wars. As Smedley Butler said: The Government declares war. To say helplessly:  As individuals we have nothing to do with it, can't prevent it.  But WHO ARE WE?   Well, "WE" right now are the mothers and fathers of every able-bodied boy of military age in the United States. "WE" are also you young men of voting age and over,  that they'll use for cannon
    fodder.  And "WE" can prevent it.   Now--you MOTHERS, particularly.  The only way you can resist all this war hysteria and beating tomtoms is by hanging onto the love you bear your boys.  When you listen to some well-worded, well-delivered speech, just remember that it's nothing but Sound.  It's your boy that matters.  And no amount of sound can make up to you for the loss of your boy.
  •  I have a different take than everyone else here. (none)
    It's the Republicans who want us to think that "we support the troops" means "we support the war."  Just because this lady flies her flag and supports the army recruiter (who is just doing his job), you assume that she supports the war.  Bullshit.

    The other thing we said - "military service isn't for our kind" - does strike me as odd.  Or, at least, it did.  Until I remembered how I answered to the military recruiter who called me on the phone yesterday.

    Now, a little background on myself.  I am of draft age - in fact, I get calls from military recruiters at least every month.  I mean, they want me just like they want this kid you're talking about.  But I tell them no.  The reason is, I have plans to go to a university and study and get a degree in something.  I respect the armed services, I am in awe of anyone who serves their country in that way, but I know that the army is not for me.  If I'm drafted, I'll go.  But I'm not going to volunteer because I have the opportunity to go do other things that I really want to do.  And so I tell every recruiter who calls me - sorry, I support you, I respect you, but I just don't think the army is for me.  (And of course they beg to differ, but that's neither here nor there.)

    Perhaps this mother feels the same way.  Perhaps she doesn't want her son to go into the Marines because she doesn't want to see him killed in Iraq.  Or she thinks he can go to a university and succeed magna cum laude.  And perhaps she chose her words really poorly.

    My point is - you all are judging this woman unfairly.  She gets quoted for two goddamn sentences and you all seem to think she's some massive Republican draft-dodging hypocrite.  Think again and slow down.

    •  You've made the point (4.00)
      Yes, that's it exactly. The recruiters are promising ever higher signing bonuses. Why? That's not going to attract you, is it? Because YOU have other options. Goody for you.

      Other people in your age bracket have a choice - scramble for scholarships & loans (and by the way the Fed has cut back on Pell Grants - coincidence?), or accept minimum wage jobs for the rest of their lives due to no education, OR... sign up for a tour of duty and pray to survive long enough to complain about the lying recruiter not coming through with the promised bonuses.

      Poor parents may not like their sons & daughters signing up now, but there aren't many good options. And yes, we are judging Ms Flag Filled Yard harshly but it boils down to - we resent the HELL out of the fact she can provide HER child with better options. In the current economy, even those of us with educations are struggling to send our children to college.

      And if she thinks the war is so wonderful and noble, why doesn't she want her son to serve? She's just another Chicken Hawk.

      "Unpatriotic my ASS!"

      by WV Democrat on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:58:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe she doesn't think the war is noble. (none)
        Maybe she loves her country, flies her flag, and supports the troops, all the while thinking that the war is a mistake and preferring not to let her son die in it.  Or does waving the flag equal supporting the war?  I missed that memo.
    •  The difference is (none)
      That you're not out there saying what a great leader Bush is and what a noble cause this war is. If you did, and you're of draft age and choose not to go, then you'd be a chickenshit.

      "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

      by Auntie Mame on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 05:35:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Markets & Military Recruitment (none)
    Here's a lesson in the economics of military recruitment for "her kind of people."
  •  P.I.N.O. (4.00)
    Patriots In Name Only
  •  Laura Bush said exactly the same thing (4.00)
    Just not out loud.

    So did George W. Bush.  He started this war, but his own daughters are too rich too privileged too white too Republican too college-educated too pretty too thin too busy too promising too oversheduled too Bush to actually serve in it.

    Same thing.  Different quote.

  •  Forget what you heard... (4.00)
    I find the best quote in the article to be this nominee for Jon Stewart's irony award:

    "We've stopped the bleeding," said Lt. Col. Michael Curran, chief of recruiting. "The tourniquet has been applied."

    Gee, I wonder why the recruiters aren't really connecting with the parents?

    Those against politics are in favor of the politics inflicted upon them. Bertolt Brecht

    by akapensensei on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:32:32 PM PDT

  •  Bottom Line (none)
    It's ok that Bush lied
    As long as not our people died.

    We'll just buy another lapel pin made in China, thank you.

  •  Let's move on (none)
    It suprises me that this story evokes such raw emotions from you all. This kind of class hypocracy is as American as baseball and apple pie. Pointing and screaming (yet again) at this abhorent, ugly elitism so common among wealthy -- and even some not so wealthy -- families, does not advance our cause. Instead, we should more closely analyze the underlying beliefs, values, and conditions that lead people to think and act according to this ideology. This is, after all, a struggle of ideas.
    •  Keep talking (4.00)
      It is, in part, a struggle of ideas, but it's also a struggle with its roots in power.  I'm not so sure that the elitism found among the wealthy can be undone by examining their beliefs or values.  It's in their self-interest to maintain it, and the more invisibly it operates, the better for them.  At least pointing and screaming draws attention to the fact that it exists and creates an opportunity to discuss it.  Some aren't so conscious of it, accepting it as "the way things are."  This is how class has become depoliticized in America.
    •  Maybe (none)
      It's time we start a lottery where the govt puts all the names of those earning more than 150K per year in a pool. And they start selecting names where all their wealth is confiscated to pay for their war until it's paid for.
      Or we just start hanging them in the revolution.

      ... and when they came for the liberals, there was no one to stand up for me.

      by UndercoverRxer on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:59:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More important point (none)
      At the end of the day, I couldn't care less how ugly this woman's soul is.

      What I want to do with this story is shove it in the face of every poor deluded middle and low class family who think George Bush and his
      "have mores" base give a shit about them, who can't see how badly their being used, robbed and conned.

      Let them show their true colors, please.  

      •  Whoa (none)
        Usually I don't care about typos, but that up there was pretty bad.  

        Really, I do know the difference between "their" and "they're" and most of the time, I can make my subjects agree with their verbs.  Takes talking and diplomacy and compromise, but they usually come to agreement.

  •  Interesting. And yes, there's a story there... (4.00)
    ...but it's not a story about the woman - what a pathetic creature.  A tour of duty as a widow in one of the less fortunate suburbs in Iraq might be of value to her soul.

    No.  The story is about the Marine.  What did he do, when confronted with the fruits of his labor, love, and blood?  How could he speak to his dead, after such a confrontation with what is, essentially, the sole raison d'etre of a man at arms - the sanctity of a free citizen in a free land?

    What a life-altering moment that must have been, and how much less secure we all are, because of it.

    I am sorry, sir.


  •  if there is hope... (4.00)
    it lies in the proles.
  •  This sounds so familiar (4.00)
    So I'm talking with my mom the other day about my brother. He's kind of fallen on hard times. Both are big Bush supporters so I mention that there's a DOD proposal to up the military recruitment age to 42. That would make my brother eligible for service so I suggested he enlist if this comes to pass. And without a trace of irony she says, "Oh, he couldn't do that. It's too dangerous."

    Let's review:

    1. Supports Iraq war and voted for Bush twice
    2. Can't find work
    3. In debt
    4. Can't serve country because war is dangerous

    Got it.

    "I've already said too much."

    by Rp on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:45:25 PM PDT

    •  Tell your brother I've got a job for him (4.00)
      He can get in now cause it's the National Guard, and be guaranteed $15,000 bonus and a year of tax-free income starting next summer.  We'll pay, house, and clothe him during his training.  I'm sure that we can find a job for him where he'll never have to go outside the wire in Afghanistan, like Administative Specialist in a nice, air-conditioned room with internet to play on, or Operating Room Technician with a built-in civilian career field, and all the money he'll be paid will be tax-free, including the bonus, if he deferrs it till deployment.  We'll give him GI bill money, a VA loan for a house when he gets back, and free tuition in one of the best state-supported schools in the nation.

      We've got vacancies now that we need to fill with motivated young men such as your brother who fully support the Commander in Chief and the war effort, and it's not even the real scary place, it's the place where we're actually fighting against the people who attacked us on 9/11 and those who shelter them.
      And now for the rant phase:  Tell your brother that I don't need cheerleaders.  I need soldiers, so either sign up, or shut his fucking pie-hole.

      Wounded Warrior Project Give till it hurts. They already did.

      by soonergrunt on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:17:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Nothing ever changes (4.00)
    IIRC, there were stories of poor men being paid to serve in a richer man's place in the Civil War. No doubt the same applies for the wars before that too.

    The current situation, Chickenhawk Dubya and the Deferment King, Cheney, neither one of whom actually did anything in VietNam, trying to send OUR children to Iraq just infuriates me.

    Send Jenna & Barbara, and the Cheney daughters too! So what if the one daughter is lesbian? And double so what if the other one is married with a bunch of children. How many mothers & father have been deployed to Iraq with a houseful of children waiting at home?


    "Unpatriotic my ASS!"

    by WV Democrat on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:45:33 PM PDT

    •  No stories (none)
      Don't have the sources at hand but it was a common practice among them thar yankees. We'uns in the Confederacy offered our best and brightest (read, second born and gullible).

      "A man who chooses not to read, is just as ignorant as the man who cannot read."

      by TexDem on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:58:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is EXACTLY what my brother-in-law told me (4.00)
    I always thought he was a liberal because of an incident a few years ago.  His son was running around playing army, and I said to him, "Maybe you will grow up and go to West Point."  His father (my brother in law) immediately chided me and said, "Don't even say such a thing."  I was insulted, as my son has always openly talked about going to West Point.  I told him that I thought the military was an honorable profession.  
    Imagine my surprise when, last month, I asked him if he was a dem.  He said, NO, I AM A REPUBLICAN!!  Well, being the curious wench that I am, I asked him if he supported the war.  He assured me that he did.  I then pounced, saying that a few  years ago he told me he really disliked the military for his kid, so I assumed he was against war.  He said, and I quote exactly, "IT IS A GREAT THING, AND SO IS THE WAR, BUT NOT FOR MY KID."  Well, asshole, I said, you cannot support the war if you are not willing to send your kid.  I repeated this about 5 times, and then I left.
    I am disgusted by Chickenhawk Republicans.

    "If you are not outraged, you are not paying attention."

    by adigal on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:46:59 PM PDT

  •  It's nice to have a war where you can opt-out ... (none)
    This story just warms the cockles of the hearts of the Vietnam-era generation. When you get the little letter that says "your friends and neighbors have selected you etc.," you have a limited set of choices.
       Let's see. We're 365,000 short in Iraq, and the neocons want to tune up Iran and Syria.
    They're stop-lossing 50 year olds with prostate cancer who manage to get it into remission. They're sticking steel prosthetics on people with their leg blown off, and recycling them to the land of super-sized camel spiders.
       North Korea's playing with missles, and China's still ripped about what Japan is putting in their history books about some slips in military discipline in World War II, something you'd have to be about 65 years old to actually remember.
      How long does she think she'll be able to "just say no?"
  •  If it looks like a duck, (none)
    and quacks like a duck, many of us can still imagine it not being a duck.

    In Your Face From Outer Space

    by mike101 on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:51:39 PM PDT

  •  Our type don't serve in the military (4.00)

    For you see, we're fucking cowards.

    the ratprick: the most envied sexual instrument in the animal kingdom

    by the ratprick on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 08:58:24 PM PDT

  •  I'm having a hard time (none)
    making the leap from the article to all the assumptions that are being made here.

    First, she's a snob and probably doesn't vote but if she does then there's a good chance that her cluelessness means that she'd would vote Republican.

    BUT, it's a leap to assume that she's any of those things. I can certainly understand using this as an opportunity for attacking "those kind of people" but let's make the transition from her personally to those who we really know are all the things we assume her to be - Republican, callous, rich, snobish, stupid.

    I can easily see that she'd be a snob and therefore above sending her children to war because she's financially above average/ It's a logical leap to assume that she has a clue about how horrible war is - where would she get that information in her world? She's ignorant but that doesn't necessarily mean she's a mean person.

    I'm not cutting her type any slack. It's easy to attack what we read without making assumptions but I'm for keeping the attacks to what we know and then acknowledge when we're transferring to attacks on others.

    Someday, after the forest fire of the Right has died we'll say "Whew, I'm happy that's over."

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:04:51 PM PDT

  •  Who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake? (none)
    The original story that Atrios linked to says that the Army spends $300 million a year to advertise.

    Think about that, $300 million to ADVERTISE.  Because the cheerleaders for the war, those who voted for it and taunted opponents for being traitors, they won't use their bully pulpits to ask people to sacrifice, to enlist.  Bush won't actually ask anyone to enlist.  Chickenhawks of the 101st Keyboard Division like General Jonah Goldberg won't use his column to ask parents to send their children to fight this war they think is so just.  You don't hear the National Review or the Weekly Standard or the conservative blogs asking others to fight (let alone putting down their keyboards and enlisting themselves).

    If it's so damned just and noble, why do we have to spend $300 million to run advertisements like we're selling Ginsu knives that nobody really wants?  Shouldn't the noble just war of liberation, war on terra in Iraq sell itself?

    •  Precicely! (none)
      If it's so damned just and noble, why do we have to spend $300 million to run advertisements like we're selling Ginsu knives that nobody really wants?  Shouldn't the noble just war of liberation, war on terra in Iraq sell itself?

      When I think about what I could do with $300 million, it boggles the mind, and I'm not even talking about defense expenditures.  How many roads could be fixed?  How many toxic waste sites could be cleaned up?  How many hungry children could be fed?  How many veterans could come off of waiting lists and get the care they were promised?

      Wounded Warrior Project Give till it hurts. They already did.

      by soonergrunt on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:59:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  In the movie... (none)
      "Battleground" which is about the 101st at Bastogne. One of the characters writes a column for a smalltown newspaper. It seems he wrote such a convincing column about it being everyone patriotic duty to enlist, it left him with no alternative but to enlist. Could you see any of our current scribes having that kind of integrity?

      "A man who chooses not to read, is just as ignorant as the man who cannot read."

      by TexDem on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:16:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How telling (none)
    Fuck her "kind of people".

    "Knowledge is good." - Emil Faber

    by chicagovigilante on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:09:31 PM PDT

  •  doesn't disgust me (none)
    It doesn't disgust me.   I am actually moved that this republican woman retains sufficient humanity to rank her own son's life and future above the needs of bush and the US military.

    What would disgust me would be if this parent encouraged her child to enlist.

    "Overgrown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty." George Washington, 1796.

    by acquittal on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:09:40 PM PDT

    •  It didn't bother me that... (none)
      ...her son was spared from the war (that's a good thing), but what did bother me was that:

      A) She seemingly believes in the Iraq War but doesn't think HER son should have to fight.
      B) She thinks that rich, white suburbia should be exempt from fighting in wars.

      "Knowledge is good." - Emil Faber

      by chicagovigilante on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:21:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This kid sleeps in the dining room for a mistake (none)

    "It was something I always wanted to do," Terry Rodgers says of joining the Army. "I thought it looked fun." After being wounded by an insurgent bomb in Iraq, he's back at the family home in Gaithersburg, living in what used to be the dining room because he can't get upstairs.  

       Photo Credit: Sarah L. Voisin -- The Washington Post Photo  

    By the way, notice the details on his wall to see what motivates this kid, and I'm not talking about Jesus.

  •  Wow (none)
    Sad that some think a yellow ribbon gives them moral superiority.
  •  WTFO? (none)
    why the false outrage?

    that's the way some people are in this country.  

    that's why we're in the position that we're currently in.

    that's why it will continually get worse.

    that's why absurdity is becoming the new reality.

    it's the way we are.  slowly being poisoned by our own obliviousness.  progressives, conservatives, doesn't really matter.  They're just different roads to our destiny; inertia.

    cynical? optimistic?  reality doesn't care what you label it.  it does its work no matter what you call it.

    why the suprise?

    it's only a suprise if you hadn't opened your eyes.  maybe this experiment has a self life.  

    we're just the canary in the gold mine.

    the gas has already hit its critical mass.

    all there's left to do is to chirp away until we see black.


    •  WTFO? (none)
      It's vuja de all over again. "Good Morning IRRRAAAAAQQQQQQQQQ!"  -- Uh, could you turn the volume down a little please? Thanks!

      The snow job presidency, some disassembly required. -- onp67

      by onp67 on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 07:10:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Okay, I'm just gonna puke now (none)
    What is with the wealthy in this country?  How can they live here, yet be so utterly disconnected from any sense of responsibility for the whole, caring only for their own slice of it?

    I recently had occassion to tell someone my own sense of things:

    "For those who are given much, much is required."  

    It's not original - its actually a bible verse (Luke 12:48, and I read it for the first time, not in a bible, but in a sci-fi novel by Julian May).  What I've always taken it to mean is if one has the ability to help others, than one innately carries the responsibility to do so.

    So how can it be at this late age of supposed superior knowledge and Christian morality, that the wealthy among us not only do not get this, but refuse outright to live it?

    Please, spread this story around, for it seems to me it is important for those willing to serve our country in the military, to know the truth represented by this story.  Here's a handbill for it:
    PDF Version -

    And there is a handbill dealing with the question of the Bush twins, and some other rich Republicans, as well:
    PDF Version -

  •  Last quote (none)
    "I taught my boys you should serve your country," Don McCamey said.

    Well, so did my father. But neither he, nor my brother two sisters and I, veterans all, would enlist with this pack of liars in charge.

    And neither will W's kids; so much for family values.

  •  Rumors of World War..... (none)
    I'm sure we've all seen the movies about WWII.  Every able-bodied man signed up and proudly went off to fight the Great War.  The rich, the famous, the stars, everyone was called to service.  My Dad went (I was a boomer born post-WWII) as did most everyone elses dad, brother, son.

    Well, if the following items are true, we may see that day again. I don't vouch for the credibility, I just offer then as "interesting" as respects our current discussion.

    First, an article titled "An Oilwell Too Far":

    The outlook does not look good for the young generation of Americans today. One announcement after another from the Bush Administration brings them closer to the killing fields of Global War, to be fought over the obsession of Cheney to owning and controlling all the world's supply of Oil.

    First Afghanistan to control the pipeline, then Iraq to grab their reserves, now Iran and Venezuela, and leaked military plans to occupy Saudi Arabia and secure their oil. These are not conspiracy theories but official statements, and statements from briefings around the world.

    But where will Rumsfeld find all these soldiers to invade Iran, and Venezuela? The reports are that 4 star General Kevin Byrnes was fired for questioning the orders of NeoCon Rumsfeld to begin to prepare training for 50,000 new recruits, many speaking only Spanish, have also added fuel to this Crazy Oil scenario around the corridors of power.

    Rumsfeld believes that the world will sit quietly by, and with Bolton now in charge of the United Nations we have nothing to fear, especially if you are the age of Rumsfeld and Cheney. Bolton will probably think he can warn China that Wal Mart will go elsewhere if they complain.


    Iran too would like it's young male population to gain respect for Islam and fight off the influences of decadent western imports, of images, goods and ideas. A human wave of religious fanatics sweeping across the Iraqi Oilfields, from both Iraq and Iran in a pincer movement would certainly overwhelm a retreating US military, sent off to fight another Oil War.

    Then the Ayatollahs would control both the Iraq and Iranian oilfields.

    Take a note from the leaked Pentagon/CIA briefings and Iran could easily screw the west by fermenting unrest in Saudi Arabia. No longer a fabricated excuse but reality. Maybe a nuclear confrontation by the United States would quell the uprisings, but without Oil the US population would realize their folly in voting Cheney/Bush for a second term. Of course the Strategic Oil Reserves would be needed to allow the military to fight a generation long war to reopen the oilfields in the Middle East.

    Would the world allow the United States to escalate the war, and suffer a devastating oil crisis. Would Europe allow petroleum starvation to fuel the aspirations of a megalomaniac on a pacemaker?

    The gamble appears to been planned as to create a Greater Israel controlling all the Middle East Oil, geographically splitting the Arab nations and sending their current populations into desert shanty owns, behind walls, barbed wire and minefields. Gaza was to be the case study. The Oilfields being under the military control of the United States, as would the oilfields in South America, and the Gas fields in the Caribbean. The US/Israeli nuclear stockpile being the trump card, needed to carry out this hair brained scheme.


    where are Congress in this? Where are the media? The final check and balance in the system is to vote an overwhelming Democratic House and many more Democrats into the Senate. But why bother, the Democrats are silent as the Republicans. Unless they stand up and be counted they can work out ways for their sons and daughters to evade the Draft, and not go off to fight King Dicky's Oil Wars.

    Is this a loony, conspiracy theorist?  I don't know.  But I worry that it carries a lot of truth about what's to come.  It could be we ain't seen nothin' yet!

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmund Burke

    by CyberDem on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:41:16 PM PDT

    •  Hell, in WWII, (none)
      Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio were in uniform, never mind rich kids like the Kennedy boys (Joe and Jack---and Kathleen in one of the women's corps) and George HW Bush.

      OK, I'll grant you that people like DiMaggio probably didn't see combat---but Williams was a fighter pilot.

      "Isn't for our kind of people" my ass.

      " 'Vox populi, vox Dei' translates as 'How the hell did we get into this mess!?' "---Robert Heinlein (accuracy of quote not guaranteed)

      by mirrim on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:25:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lets not forget (none)
      Our food for oil programs, I mean really folks, give us your oil or else starve to death. Thats great forign policy Bushy. GW is the self proclaimed King   Cheney is the Queen.
  •  So much missing from this excerpt (none)
    but if this "recruiter" is anything like the sharks trolling parking lots in F 9/11, I'll bet the son of a bitch wouldn't let go even if you shot him.  Maybe she tried a new tack in getting him to go away.  Did he go away?  Another unknown, but it seems like he did.

    "Figs! In the name of The Prophet, figs!" E.A. Poe

    by moltar on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:41:53 PM PDT

  •  Kipling's "Tommy" (4.00)
    I discovered this after The Thin Red Line came out and I was curious about the origins of the title.  Kipling is of course a problem for the, er, modern reader, but he got this one right.  It sort of says it all about the attitudes of some folks:

    by Rudyard Kipling

    I went into a public house to get a pint of cheer.
    The owner up and says, "We serve no Red Coats here".
    The girls behind the bar, they laughed and giggled fit to die.
    I'm out into the street again and to myself says I;

     O it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, an Tommy go away.
     But it's "Thank you mister Adkins", when the band begins to play.
     The band begins to play my boys, the band begins to play.
     O it's "Thank you mister Adkins, when the band begins to play.

    Yes, making mock of uniforms that guard you while you sleep.
    Is cheaper than them uniforms, and they are starving cheap.
    An hustlin drunken soldiers when they're going large a bit.
    Is five times better than parading in full kit.

     Then it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and "Tommy, own your soul"?
     But it's "thin red line of heroes, when the drums begin to roll.
     The drums begin to roll, by boys, the drums begin to roll.
     O it's "thin red line of heroes" when the drums begin to roll.

    We aren't no thin red heroes, nor we aren't no back guards too.
    But single men in barracks, most remarkably like you.
    And if sometimes our conduct ain't all you fancy paints.
    Why, single men in barracks don's grow into plaster saints.

     While it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and Tommy fall be'end.
     But it's "Please to walk in front, sir, when there's trouble in the wind.
     There's trouble in the wind, by boys, there's trouble in the wind.
     O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

    You talk better food for us, and schools, and fires, and all.
    We'll wait for extra rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook room slops, but prove it to our face.
    The widow's uniform is not the soldier's disgrace.

     For it's Tommy this, and Tommy that, and "chunk him out, the bruit".
     But it's "Savior of this country" when the guns begin to shoot.
     And it's Tommy this and Tommy that, and anytime you please.
     And Tommy ain't  a blooming fool  - you bet that Tommy sees.

    No one likes armed missionaries. -- Robespierre.

    by Gator Keyfitz on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:41:54 PM PDT

  •  I Wound Up In Vietnam Because I Was Not . . . (none)
    . . . her fucking kind of people.  

    For the most part, those of us that went to Vietnam were not her kind of people.  For the most part we did not come from the upper classes.  No, most of us came from the working middle class or below on the socio-economic scale.  Of course, at the time, most of us did not know it.  I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood, in an industrial town, and was damn proud of it.  

    It was the George Bush and Dick Cheney types that were finding ways to avoid Vietnam.  

    Thank God, we did not have many of her type.

    •  Things change but remain the same (none)
      Yes but we can look anyone in the eye. To paraphrase  Emerson, "the only thing you can give God is your character". Because we have a sense of shared sacrafice we have something that not any of the money they stolen stolen will buy them. We also won the lottery and made it home. I do not know about you but I still have not figured what I have ever done to deserve all the fun I had. I cannot tell you how happy I am not George Bush or Dick Cheney.
                  John S Lucas

      In every moment of every day one only has two choices. To act in love or fear.

      by Jlukes on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:09:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  mirror mirror on da wall (none)
    Its her country, others die for her freedom.
  •  Whats the problem? (none)
    Wow, finally an honest Republican. I am impressed.

    In every moment of every day one only has two choices. To act in love or fear.

    by Jlukes on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 09:56:18 PM PDT

  •  little of the topic (none)
    to kinda show how desperate the marines are getting in recruitment here's a story..

    My neighbors girlfriend is a little wacky. She's had a coke problem, never graduated high school, no GED nothin..

    Well, she wanted to join the marines like her grandpop one day (probably after sniffin a whole ounce) and stopped by our local recruiters office.

    She explains to the guy her situation, and he tells her that soon, the HS diploma (GED) requirement is being lifted..

    He even wrote on the card (i saw it, I'll try to scan it up) to put down false info to kind of pad the resume if you will.

    Any thoughts on this, I'm sharing it second hand with you, and i'll try and get a copy of the biz card up.

  •  I don't buy in to this diary (none)
    What's the point of creating some discussion about some lady living in an affluent Pittsburgh suburb who doesn't want her son to serve because it is with some 'other kind of people'?
    An important issue is the large number of underpriveleged people who serve, true, but this diary conveys a sweeping phenomenon based on one situation just to stir reaction.
    •  Whats the point? (none)
      What's the point of creating some discussion about some lady living in an affluent Pittsburgh suburb who doesn't want her son to serve because it is with some 'other kind of people'?

        The point is that we need to talk about the idea of shared sacrifice.  

      In every moment of every day one only has two choices. To act in love or fear.

      by Jlukes on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 04:11:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well then (none)
        how about taking about shared sacrifice and how to introduce it with policies?

        Instead of opening up the frontpage of dailykos to all kinds of people, who use the fact that one can vent his feelings here as a enabling vehicle to create a place with a lot of stinky hot air and nothing much else?

        •  not going to happen (none)
          Our idea of shared sacrifice is social and economic darwinism. Other people are ojects not flesh and blood. We are insane

          In every moment of every day one only has two choices. To act in love or fear.

          by Jlukes on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:21:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Sorta O/T - shows the same disgusting mindset (none)
    This is from a "supports republicans" radio station in Grand Rapids, MI - local radio station, WKLQ.

    They are advertising that they are going to drown a Lab puppy tomorrow morning, Friday Aug 19!  This is supposed to raise awareness for the dangers of drowning due to two children recently drowning in the Holland-Grand Rapids area.  The pup's picture is on the website along with what they are going to do to it.  It is supposed to take place at an undisclosed location.

    I understand the need to bring awareness to child safty and show how quickly a life can drown, but to purposely drown "Mindy", the lab puppy, to make their case is way beyond my understanding.

    Can any Kos's readers in Grand Rapids get on the horn to the proper authorities to put a stop to this.  

    In Jan 2009 it will be the "Wes Wing"

    by Best in Show on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 10:18:49 PM PDT

  •  My folks got a 4-F for me, but (none)
    At least they were anti-war, and especially anti-Vietnam-war, from the start. Loud and vocal, and me a kid who just wanted to go-along and get-along.

    They would raise their voices anytime the subject came up in our small town. They'd write letters to the editor, congresspeople (our congressperson WAS a woman, believe it or not, given the time-frame.) The folks embarrassed me to no end. They got the boot from our church, because of their viewpoints. They suffered crap from no one, I wish I had some of that, but the dinner discourse was a lot to take, sometimes. (Ask my wife, she didn't know what she married into.)

    I had a low draft number. If my mother had been unsuccessful with my old pediatrician (I had a seizure when I was nine, none since), the "plan" was that I was to go to Canada. I didn't much want to go, and would have probably just accepted Uncle Sam's invitation, dumb kid that I was.

    Now I'm old, (and still kind of dumb). I hate this war as much as my folks hated the Vietnam War. After 9-11, my son attended an information session at high school for the Army, and boy those guys just do not quit. We must have fielded at least 100 calls from recruiters. They seem so nice, just like my son's friends; young, energetic, polite, yet hip at the same time. Scary. No way they are going to put my son into that pathic meat-grinder.

    I have hated this war from its first whiff. I can understand the action against Afganistan, but what we're into now is totally indecent. The patriotic thing to do is to try to correct the course when the country starts to go off on the wrong path. Those that are gung-ho about this crap should either put-up or shut-up. If you it's worth the life of the kid on the other side of the tracks, it's worth your kid's life.

    The news happens 3 hours sooner on the "left coast"

    by bleeding blue on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 11:19:42 PM PDT

  •  Hey Armando (none)
    Why link to atrios for this instead of the actual article?
  •  Perhaps (none)
    The entire family is comprised of "outed" homosexuals?  Maybe that's their "kind."

    That'd exclude them.   =P

    Trying To Maintain Rationality
    econatheist's bloggity blog blog

    by EconAtheist on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 11:58:57 PM PDT

  •  how do you delete a comment... (none)
    ... you'd rather have not said?

    Most people are idiots... But don't tell them. It'll spoil all the fun for those of us who aren't.

    by d3n4l1 on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 12:28:21 AM PDT

  •  Took Me a Minute (none)
    ... but I think what you're saying is, it's outrageous that Mrs Riveria pulling the "we're better than the average military grunts".

    Which is pretty much the common Republican Elite attitude. They'll support the war, as long as it's some kind from the backwoods of West Virginia or inner city LA who has to go fight.

    Fucking snobs. Everytime I see a Lexus or SUV with 15 yellow magnets, I now they're feeling guilty & overcompensating for that snobby attitude.

  •  The whole story (3.00)
    Is indicative of an attitude that seems to pervade much of America.

    It's like that pathetic woman on Fahrenheit 911 - With her "Oh how could they kill my son" weeping and wailing.

    Maybe if Moore had shown her the footage of the truckload of dead Iraqi bomb victims, the irate Iraqi holding up the skinless, charred corpse of a baby to the camera she would understand how some Iraqi could quite easily and willingly kill her son.

    Is it racism that's behind this attitude?  

    Is it fundamentalism?  

    I watched American wife swap the other day, and one of the wives was blethering on about how her relationship was part of a divine plan.  Have the preachers managed to convince most of middle America that they actually are the chosen ones?  

    •  Oh yeah (none)
      And troll rating me for saying this is kind of proving my point.  One US serviceman dies and it's a big hoo-hah; The One Hundred Thousand, unverified Iraqi's don't merit a mention: Let alone an accurate bodycount.
      •  This Unwarranted Troll Rating of Comments (none)
        Has GOT to stop. Use common sense people. Just because you don't agree with the point, or just because it might have offended you, doesn't mean that he (or she) came here and spouted something meaningly offensive. The line of thought was backed up, and while it might not sit well with some, it didn't merit a troll rating.

        The problem with America Today: There's a difference between The American Dream, and The American Way.

        by Disillusioned on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 12:04:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Just the Republican mindset (none)
    That's all this is.  This is a fine expression of exactly what the Republican party is all about.  Look at the basic tax/spending policy that the Republican party is pushing.  It amounts to a tax code that taxes wages heavily and property not at all, but the only role for government is defense and police, in other words defending property.  So the policy is, there should be two classes of people, one who owns property and derives all the benefits of property ownership and another who labors to provide the resources needed to defend that property.  This second class derives no benefit from that property, however.  

    This is then repeated in terms of military service.  One class of people owns the property another gives their lives defending it.  The two do not mix.  

    This is exactly what the Republican party has been pushing for.  

  •  That is why we need an even-handed draft (none)
    We need to bring the draft back in this country and do it in a even-handed maner.  We need to make these white republican voters pay for supporting Bush.
  •  give her name, pls (none)
    it's a news story. the media must stop giving white people a privilege you don't give persons of color.

    she is an imperialist maggot.

    •  Did it say anywhere she was white? (none)
      Why do you introduce racism in this? Are there no rich black people who might not want to send their kids into war under Bush?

      I think Armando enables a lot of superfluous emotional outrages in the readership with this diary. It's basically not helpful, even if he hits the nail on the head.

      •  No black people live there (none)
        See my post above. This area of Pittsburgh is labeled "The great white north."

        My nephew lives in one of the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh. When I went to his choral concert, there wasn't one black kid out of 200 singers. There were two or three brown faces who appeared to be of Indian (asian) decent. It's very, very white out there.

        "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

        by Auntie Mame on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 05:37:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I think (none)
          we should look for statistics in the northern Washington DC neighborhood called "Gold Coast", which is THE rich black neighborhood around in the metropolitan area. Let's see how many black moms would be enthusiastic about sending their sons and daughters as lame ducks to Iraq right now and let's just realize that this opposition to not want to sacrifice your son or daughter in Bush's war of choice, is not a question of race, its' a matter of bad policies.

          This is a BS discussion, superflous and not helpful. Any idiot knows you have extreme class division in the US due to income, which of course is a race division as well due to the US history of slavery.

          Can you tell me what it helps to remind everybody of all the pain that's related to it WITHOUT proposing any serious policies that would eliminate this class divisions?

        •  Bull (none)
          Sorry, but you're out of line. I live in Pittsburgh, grew up in the northern 'burbs. My parents are still there so I'm out there regularly. While it's certainly not a place with the diversity of NYC, it's not all white. And I've never heard anyone call it "The Great White North."
          •  Not at all (none)
            I live inside the city limits, and I hear the "great white north" from people who are concerned about their city public school but don't want to move there. I think it's a fair description of the area.

            "Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill

            by Auntie Mame on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 01:12:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Noblesse Oblige (none)
    This woman's comments are indicative of a devolution of bourgeoise elitism.  No longer are the blue bloods raised to represent a certain class by the way they behave and speak, as a lower class ethos has taken over.  Quite relatedly, there is no more obligation to country.  The ethic that took Bush's Dad to war has been defeated by the ethic that drove baby-Bush to stay at home and to cut the rich's taxes during a period of war.

    Both sides are responsible for this.  All blind rants against elitism are wrong-headed as all cultures need elites.  The leftist positions during the 60s and 70s lost site of the more centered desire to materially build a better society and increasingly focused on identity politics.  In the meantime, the upper-classes were alienated from the rest of the culture.  They now either hide and pretend to be like everyone else or have been coopted by the lower-class selfishness.

  •  Okay, hold on, do folks really join the military. (none) defend the country? I mean, is that what they're thinking: "If I don't defend the country, who will?".

    I have to think its much more complicated than that. It's a good job, bonuses, education, travel, etc.

    And if you get sent off to die, well, Uncle Sam wanted you, and now Uncle Sam owns your ass!

    I considered military for about 1 minute when I was younger, but I didn't want the government owning me, which is the effective result of enlistment. Sure it's noble, but it's also one of the few paths to take for many people, because they have few other choices.

  •  A principled society and personal behavior (none)
    I certainly understand the superficial hypocrisy revealed here, but more generally, the distinction between personal behavior and societal principles we support is important to keep in mind. The fact that I am strongly opposed to capital punishment on principle, for example, certainly does not mean I wouldn't wish for the death of someone who hurt my wife or kids.

  •  Those are the kind of people ... (none)
    ... signing up for The Million Moron March.

    In a time when we need a full accounting of what has gone wrong, we've only gotten nothing but lies, half-truths and sheer deception from the Bush administration. Not one to admit failure, President Bush will never recognize that this government-run pep rally is nothing more than a Texas-sized yellow ribbon stuck to an oversized SUV driven by an arrogant prick.

  •  Why is it that.... (none)
    The kind of folks who support our troops with bumper stickers on their SUV's that get 12mpg, but won't let their 18 year old son enlist in the Marines, are also CONSERVATIVE Republicans; while the folks who drive around with Kerry Stickers on their compact cars and are LIBERAL Democrats?  One of the reasons gas is over $2.60 here for regular, is that we have become sooo expert at the conservative lifestyle.  If we keep on conservin gas at this rate it is bound to be over $3.00 real soon.

    Maybe that oil pipline in Iraq is the "nobel cause" GW doesn't want to tell Ms. Sheehan about. I don't think he wants to tell that lady outside of Pittsburg either.  By the way, I betcha Pittsburg Mom shops at Wal-Mart!

    When the middle class is gone, who will support the Republicans in the manner to which they have grown accustomed?

    by keepinon on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 06:59:48 AM PDT

  •  It's just a statement of fact ... (none)
    everyone knows that prolonging the Debacle is dependent on feeding more raw 18-21s to the military maw; and that they wouldn't bother with the ritzy suburbs if the easy pickings in the lower socioeconomic strata hadn't hunkered down and said "I don't think so."

    <sarcasm mode>

    Bring back the draft, but make it for 21 and up. Think of all them rich white boys hustling to get married while they're still in college and make babies to get out of service.

    </sarcasm mode>

    If there's a deferment for that, that is ...

  •  Second hand quotes (none)
    You're all getting worked up and making some fairly crass assumptions over some second-hand quotes. The reporter for this story confirmed that the recruiter was his source for the quotes from the mom. So, Staff Sgt. Rivera claims that some kid's mom said some outlandish things and it warrants a front page story? And a whole lot of rage from commenters?

    Email from the reporter can be found on my diary

  •  Rangel (none)
    I thought he was just about batshit crazy when he called for a draft way back when, but now, stories like this really make me see the wisdom of his suggestion.

    War by proxy, I guess.

  •  Did I miss something? (none)
    Many of the posters are calling the parents reupublicans. I didn't see that anywhere in the link.
    Besides flying American flags and supporting the troops ,what would give the impression of voting republican?
  •  I live among them (none)
    I live in one of the well-to-do north suburbs of Pittsburgh.  It is not unlikely that mine is the very community this happened in.  I know this lady (generically) and many like her.  She lives across the street; her kid is plays baseball with mine; they are pushing conservative agendas on the school board.  She meant exactly what the Sergeant reported she said.  Others do the fighting, my kind don't fight.  

    Also, this person is almost certainly Republican.  The North Hills (at least the newer, prosperous parts) are overwhelmingly Republican.

    By the way, the community is probably not rich like so many of the posters on the original story seem to think.  It is most likely upper middle class.  People who came from middle class backgrounds that should know better.

    From someone on the ground... For what its worth.

    •  I'm in Pittsburgh (north) suburbs too (none)
      And when I read this article yesterday I nearly puked.

      People who "support" a war, but don't intend to get physically involved; people who wave their flags and send their checks to the GOP and spout off about moral values and family values and Christianity and the like....

      These people, the ones who can afford to find ways out of the wars they'll so readily support in the name of God....

      These people, who argue that they're pro-life, and wouldn't seem to mind relegating every woman with an active uterus into a life of poverty just so they can feel better about themselves...

      They're not really Christian.  They're not really pro-life.  They're not really moral.

      They're hypocrites, and they're murderers, and they make me sick.  

  •  Personal story (none)
    About ten years ago, a Marine officer recruiter came to the university I was attending. I was impressed by the veterans I had met in the science fiction club, but I would have been the first person in my family to serve in the military. I would have probably worked in IT as a soldier and of course not gotten very close to combat. My parents, steadfast opponents of the Vietnam War, did not really like this at all, but they let the recruiter come to our house and bring me to the physical, which I promptly failed. My husband says about this story, "Why didn't you try the Navy after that?"  

    "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?" (Hillel was a liberal)

    by 4jkb4ia on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 09:39:34 AM PDT

  •  May soon be moot (none)
    Will Fly for Food
    The US military is quickly and quietly replacing aircrews with unmanned aerial combat vehicles

    On August 10, 2005, two X-45A UCAVs took off, flew to a test range that had a "hostile" anti-aircraft system on it, destroyed it, and landed -- all on their own. The X-45As successfully detected the potential attack, took evasive action, and carried out their own attack, destroying the enemy anti-aircraft system. Although a USAF pilot on the ground monitored the sortie and could have inserted himselfm into the operation, the X-45As operated without any human intervention.

    While AI (artificial intelligence) is still in its adolescence, the main purpose of the X-45A is to test and perfect the flight control and combat AI systems for the larger, X-45C UCAV, which will enter service with the US Navy and Air Force by 2010. The X-45A has a payload of 1.2 tons. The X-45C JUCAS (Joint Unmanned Combat Air System) will have a 2.2 ton payload and be about the size of an F/A-18 and is being built to handle in-flight refueling.

    While UCAVs are being designed to deal with particularly dangerous missions, they can also be equipped for air-to-air combat. Though the flag officers in the USAF and USN are horrified at this prospect (think of "Top Gun" as the story of a guy who sits in a room and fights the enemy with an Xbox), UCAVs are seen as the solution to fighting a war without the American public screaming about losses of life. UCAVs are usually smaller and more maneuverable than a manned aircraft (no pilot to black out during high-G maneuvers) of the same general capabilities, making them harder targets to spot and kill. Aircrews -- especially aircrew of small crew tactical aircraft -- are watching this development with a combination of dread and resignation.

    Look for the X-47 to begin replacing the F-16 and F/A-18 after 2010  

  •  The military is not for my kind of people. (none)
    I admit it. My kind of people are not the kind who should be sent off to Iraq. My kind of people should stay home while others go off and secure my freedom for me.

    Who are my kind of people? Pussies. I admit it. I'm a big pussy.

    Anyone who thinks giving me a gun is a good idea doesn't know me very well. I have the survival skills of a moth in a candle store, and the eye hand coordination skills of Stevie Wonder playing GTA on X-box. With my luck I'd wind up getting killed on the plane ride over to Iraq, forget about being in the war zone.

    Let the brave fight, I will admire and pray for them from afar. Some people have that sense of duty and sacrifice as part of their core being, I admit that I do not.

  •  Yeah, well (none)
    First point -- army recruiters are, what, court stenographers?  Who knows what some unnamed lady may or may not have said?

    Second point -- If said, why not?  It's the first war in history financed with tax cuts.  Where are the administration progeny in Iraq?  The message from The Top is that all Americans need do to support The War and Our President is affix yellow stickers and vote Republican.  The lady with the flag shirt is just getting the message.  The bitchslap should find another target.

  •  surprising? (none)
    no.  this woman merely stated out loud the entire unspoken subtext of this war -- that it's become a class issue where the rich are sending the poor to fight and die.  of ocurse it's disgusting but at least she's being honest about it.  

    "When people think, Democrats win." - Bill Clinton

    by Todd Beeton on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 10:01:01 AM PDT

  •  Song for the Occasion (none)
    Lyrics for a Protest Anthem: "War President"

    It's not pimping, if it's being given away for free. :)

    Great minds snark alike. :)

    by cskendrick on Fri Aug 12, 2005 at 10:29:11 AM PDT

  •  We're Assuming the mom is Republican (none)
    ...and while my best guess would be that she is, the article doesn't address whether she's a Republican, a Democrat, whether she likes bush, whether she hates bush, whether she drives a minivan, prius, or an SUV.

    I think for that reason alone, this entire diary has gotten out of control.  It's all conjecture and patting each other on the back.  Well guess what?  None of us posting comments here are in Iraq either.  Maybe there is one poster who's on leave or something, but most of these comments have a tone of "holier than thou" without much to back it up.

    Armando, can't you even be troubled to post the link to the actual story, not just a link to Atrios' main page?

    Here it is:

  •  SUPPORT THE TROOPS !!! (none)
    can mean give the gullible some lip service so they will keep fighting a war you would never want to get directly involved with yourself.
  •  Here's the problem: the Repubs' response (none)
    I linked the article to another board that I post on, where a majority of the posters are conservatives.

    One person there who served in the Army responded by saying her "kind of people" were Democrats.

    Why?  He cited a Los Angeles Times op-ed piece from today that said that a survey of all military ranks showed 60% were Republicans, and only 13% were Democrats.  The rest were independents or declined to state their political affiliation.

    He went on to say that he felt the military was more like 85% Republican, that he had never met a Democrat in the Army.

    So he's actually claiming that Democrats are the ones who are not serving their country.

    Anyone have information to the contrary?

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