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Like most people, I was shocked to see that Rick Warren was going to give the opening benediction at Barack Obama's inaugural.  Warren is not only a raging homophobe and James Dobson with a slicker style, he's also repaid Obama's previous efforts at outreach by stabbing him in the back.

Lost in all the uproar over Warren's presence is the presence of another preacher at the inaugural:  Joseph Lowery, the fellow who will give the closing benediction -- and who, in addition to being a civil-rights hero on the order of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. himself, is also a friend to the GLBT community.

More after the jump.

Joseph Lowery is in his late eighties now, but he is a good deal less hidebound than many persons half his age.  He takes the same spirit that allowed him to co-found the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and to face down Southern segregationists, and mingles it with the same forbearance that allowed him to press on even when the bigots used libel lawsuits to try to silence and impoverish him.

Yes, impoverish him. From the AJC's brief sidebar bio of him:

In 1960, the Montgomery police commissioner sues him and three other ministers for libel over a New York Times ad that seeks to raise funds for King's defense against felony charges related to his 1956 and 1958 Alabama tax returns. An all-white jury initially orders the ministers to pay $500,000. Lowery's car is seized and sold at public auction. Four years later the U.S. Supreme Court overturns the libel verdict.

Those of you who work in the media have probably pricked up your ears at this.  Yes, Lowery was at the center of the New York Times Co. v. Sullivan case:

Before this decision there were nearly US$300 million in libel actions outstanding against news organizations from the Southern states and these had caused many publications to exercise great caution when reporting on civil rights, for fear that they might be held accountable for libel. After the New York Times prevailed in this case, news organizations were free to report the widespread disorder and civil rights infringements. The Times maintained that the case against it was brought to intimidate news organizations and prevent them from reporting illegal actions of public employees in the South as they attempted to continue to support segregation.

Unfortunately, as Gene Lyons points out page nine of his book Fools for Scandal, this ruling makes it very difficult for a public figure to successfully sue for libel in the US -- a fact exploited by the well-organized and well-funded right-wing attack machines set upon Bill and Hillary Clinton in the 1990s.  That being said, the ruling paved the way for real progress in civil rights in the South:  Without it, it's very likely that the Sovereignty Commissions and their ilk would still have an iron grip on Southern communities.

Pastor Lowery's most recent claims to fame are his publicly chastising George W. Bush on Iraq during his eulogy at Coretta Scott King's funeral, and his publicly chastising various preachers for being fixated on attacking gays when they should be attacking poverty:

The Reverend stated that we "are too easily divided and victimized by ‘weapons of mass distraction.’" Here he told the story of an African-American, Washington, DC-based pastor (who he kept nameless within his speech but who we all know to be the Reverend Willie Wilson of the 8,000-member Union Temple Baptist Church) who led his congregation down a path of division and mis-guidance, preaching and pushing for an amendment against same-sex marriage. The Reverend asked, Why care about something like same-sex marriage when millions of your own children are dying in starvation and poverty within the slums? The Reverend went on to speak on respect for all people and how that played in to Civil and Human Rights as a whole. He said that if you are one who says, "I believe in human rights for all people, except for..." then you really don’t believe in human rights or equality. To believe in equality and human rights is to believe in it for all people. If you don’t, then you are, according to the Reverend, creating an oxymoron and certainly not standing up for equality. He said no matter what race, color, religion, creed, sex, gender OR sexual orientation... we are all deserving of human rights, civil rights and equality. The Reverend said he "sometimes wonders about people who are so homophobic." Quoting Hamlet, he said, "Me thinks you doth protest too much." The audience responded with laughter and applause. He continued, "If a person is a secure in their sexuality, they have no time to waste on sneaking around to see what you are doing."

[...]

At the end, during the Question and Answer period, I rose and walked to one of the available microphones not to ask a question, but to thank the Reverend for what his message had meant to me (you can hear this on the audio). As a gay man in American, it meant more than I can describe to just sit and listen to such a great and wise Civil Rights leader like himself affirm me as a human being and affirm me as an American citizen. Thank you, Reverend Lowery.

To this, Reverend Lowery responded: "God didn’t call us to judge. He called us to love... and when you love, you have no time to judge. The Bible says that when you judge, you will be judged. With the same measure you judge, you shall be judged and none of us wants to live with that."

Quite a contrast to Rick Warren, isn't he?

Originally posted to Phoenix Woman on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 09:53 PM PST.

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    by Phoenix Woman on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 09:54:43 PM PST

    •  I think Obama tried to balance it out. (122+ / 0-)

      He tried balancing the pastor that liberals would love (Lowery) with the pastor that conservatives would love (Warren).  It's a political strategy, I know. I just don't have to like it.

      By the way, thank you for this diary. This great man deserves much more attention than Warren.

      Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong. -Oscar Wilde

      by unspeakable on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:07:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Even more, to open up the (74+ / 0-)

        eyes of the blind.

        We have to stand together. We have to learn to communicate with even those who we feel hate us. If we don't do this, we're fucked, "them" and "us".

        I feel that Obama gets this. So we ned to chill. l mean in terms of wanting everyone to "be like us". That's crap. The world isn't like this. The world, in the future, is learning how we all can just plain get along.

        "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

        by TheWesternSun on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:30:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

          •  Amen. (38+ / 0-)

            And giving blithe homophobes like Rick Warren the huge international pulpit of the Inaugural Invocation does the cause of equality and justice no fucking good whatsoever.

            Shame on you, Barack Obama.

            •  I hope Obama's right... (27+ / 0-)

              Obama made history employing the smartest campaign in history.  Like you, many of his decisions made me cringe, but I have to trust his judgement.  That's why we voted for him.  Let's give him a chance to give us change, and change can only happen when we build a bridge of understanding with the other side.

              (fingers crossed)

              •  a bridge of understanding (28+ / 0-)

                could be built by meeting with Mr. Warren, privately or publicly. There is no need to hand him a microphone. Warren is not just someone with different policy views, he is a malicious liar who equated gay marriage with pedophilia and claimed that not passing Prop 8 would lead to ministers being prosecuted for hate speech. Asking him to give the benediction is giving him an enormous honor and it carries an implicit endorsement of his vicious lies.

                I can handle listening to small-government conservatives, evangelical Christians, military contractors and other people who disagree with me. But honoring a liar is different.

                koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                by m3 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:21:24 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I think Obama is very smart (26+ / 0-)

                  to put Warren in the spotlight of the mainstream. And the contrast that Lowery will strike will be glaring.

                  I love it. Let them (Warren's followers) drown in their own hatred in front of America. Look at all the press this issue is getting.

                  Kudos to Obama. He knows how to work it.

                  •  Alrighty then, let's invite the Grand Wizard of (30+ / 0-)

                    the KKK to participate in our pagent of haters on inauguration day too!

                    The primary mistake that Americans have made since the Reagan era has been to focus on "what NOT to do" instead of setting an example of what the right thing to do is. Nancy Reagan blew millions and millions of dollars telling us to "just say no".  Why could we have not spent that money on improving education, after school programs, arts in schools, sports...

                    Why can't we focus on what to do?  On what's good?  Why not reach out to others not through their own voices of hatred, but through our example of inclusion and acceptance?

                    Putting Rick Warren up on that stage on this historic day - which really should be about inclusion - not a pagent of hatred - is about the dumbest and most disappointing decisions Obama has made.  

                    •  I'm sad to have to agree. (9+ / 0-)

                      I am more disappointed with Obama today than I have ever been, or ever thought I could be.

                      Let tyrants fear.-Queen Elizabeth I

                      by Virginia mom on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:21:22 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  he's been disappointing (5+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        beans, CarolynC967, dotdot, TomP, polar bear

                        me right along. day after day.

                        "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

                        by hester on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:22:35 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Take a deep breath (6+ / 0-)

                          He hasn't even had his first day yet.  He just may be weaving a web that we can't see yet.

                        •  eh... his choices had been astute but (2+ / 0-)

                          this one is horrendous.

                          Obama attended a megachurch, so perhaps it doesn't register with him... the underlying disequilibrium in our spiritual houses.

                          These megachurches are filling an economic void in our system, but that should not give them unparalleled access and power to the megaphone for their specific bigotries and hatred.

                          It's like the mega-financial houses--getting bigger and bigger until they're "too big to fail" and they bring the entire house of cards down with their arrogance and superiority complex.

                          <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                          by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:07:18 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It's not a megachurch (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shhs, klompendanser

                            which are usually nondenominational. It's UCC--a very different hting than megachurches.

                          •  No, a megachurch is defined as one with >2000 (0+ / 0-)

                            in attendance and Obama's UCC church has 8500 members.

                            So, it's a megachurch.

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:06:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Need more information (0+ / 0-)

                            A church, by that definition, could have 300 million members. If only 1,999 are able to fit in the room at one time, it's not a megachurch.

                            Just because a church has 8,000 members doesn't mean it's a megachurch. Do they all attend services at the same time, or are many members in the sense that they went, joined, and no longer attend?

                            Several of our Catholic churches in CT had memberships in the range of several thousand... they weren't "megachurches" though.

                            Obama's campaign just transformed from "Yes, we can" to "You're fuckin'-A right we did!"

                            by Eddie in ME on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:15:51 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Here you go... Trinity is a megachurch (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            resa, inclusiveheart

                            From NPR:

                            Obama found religion in his mid-20s, after moving to Chicago in the 1980s. As a community organizer in the city's depressed south side, Obama began attending services at Trinity United Church of Christ, a black "mega-church" that stresses black self-reliance and community service. The title of Obama's recent best-seller, The Audacity of Hope, comes from a sermon given by that church's senior pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.

                            And, if you had clicked on that wiki link that I first provided, you would have seen that Trinity was classified as a megachurch.

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:43:27 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You may be right but... (0+ / 0-)

                            FYI - Wikipedia is not a definitive source, just by it's nature.

                            "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

                            by resa on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 11:13:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well aware of that fact... but we're online and (0+ / 0-)

                            on an internet blog, so we utilize the internet tools that are here.

                            It wouldn't help me in the least to run to my library and find a cite and post it... when very few others would have the ability to verify that cite.

                            Wiki is at the tips of our typing fingers, so there are lots of people who try to keep it legit.

                            So, no, wiki is not an extensive source of cite material. Scholar Google helps though.

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:20:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Lets not overstate this (7+ / 0-)

                            I don't like Warren's opinion on gay issues at all, and would rather Obama hadn't picked him (being non-religious myself, I'd rather there weren't any religious elements at all, but that's another story).  But having Warren (or Billy Graham, or whoever) give a couple minute recitation of some generic platitudes, does not, to my mind equate to giving megachurches "unparalleled access and power to the megaphone for their specific bigotries and hatred".  That's just hyperbole.

                            I don't necessarily think Obama's got some 'long game' or anything like that going-but its clear that he has always been willing to engage with people that he has strong disagreements with-that's who he is.  This seems to be another instance of that-and I definitely like the inclusion of someone like Lowery as a counterbalancing symbol.

                            Now just bring in Richard Dawkins to give the nontheist invocation, and we'll be all set! :)

                            America DOES have a place for a skinny kid with a funny name!

                            by ksduck on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:16:03 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't hyperbole. This legitimizes (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            maxschell, inclusiveheart

                            Warren's leadership.

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:45:52 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now there's an idea... :) (0+ / 0-)

                            But why stop there -- if the ceremony were long enough we could cover agnostics, Unitarians, Wiccans, and, for big, big, big fireworks...Satanists...Nah, but how about Marilyn Manson performing afterwards? (Except I think he's a Libertarian, like most Satanists.)

                            Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                            by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:48:17 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It must be "overstated." It is *imperative* (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            inclusiveheart

                            that the distinction be made between Warren's brand of "spirituality" and that of tolerant progressive dominations (whose churches have been under assault for 30 years now).

                            From The Nation:

                            ...The rejection of the "social justice" gospel in favor of the salvation-focused evangelicalism that has come to dominate the definition of "Christian" lies at the heart of the religious right agenda to marginalize liberalism and harness its political power.

                            See my fuller comment here with the links and attributes to Sarah Posner.

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:50:31 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay, make that denominations not dominations (0+ / 0-)

                            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                            by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:15:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Don't be disappointed (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        sick of it all

                        I'm gay, and I don't like the decision to invite Rick Warren.  But if you think this is the first time Obama has clashed with the LGBT community pastorally, you'd be wrong.  Does anyone not remember Donnie McClurkin?

                        But here's the bottom line: I didn't like Barack Obama giving a stage to Donnie McClurkin, and I don't like him giving a stage to Warren.  But I have no doubt about Barack Obama's personal commitment to expanding LGBT rights.  His presidential transition website (an official government site) lists his LGBT rights agenda on the Civil Rights page (taking a strong position that LGBT rights ARE civil rights, and taking a strong exception from those who get righteous indignation when the two movements are mentioned in the same breath).  Barack Obama is the one person running for President that did not back off from standing up for respect for LGBT Americans while he spoke at African American churches, telling them that they must overcome their own problem of homophobia.  Barack Obama is the one candidate who went in front of non-gay-friendly audiences and spoke out in favor of gay rights.

                        All this stuff about who gives a damned invocation will not be remembered when it comes time to write the legacy of this president.  What will matter is what he will have done to advance the cause of our rights.

                    •  Absolutely (4+ / 0-)

                      Just the thought of it takes some of the excitement I've been having away. What a sad choice for such a historical moment.

                      Ho ho frickin ho, ho.

                      by desnyder on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:37:16 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, let's invite the Grand Wizard (13+ / 0-)

                      No, I'm being serious. All-inclusive, right? No Blue America, no Red America, just the United States of America. And know what? There's bigotry and hatred in America, just as there is tolerance and understanding.

                      On the positive side of the argument, inviting Rick Warren has opened the door to debate, has driven people to research Warren and will expose him for what he is to the rest of the nation.

                      On the negative side...no, I don't agree with this decision. I support my president-elect, but support doesn't mean blind loyalty. I understand what he is trying to do, but I don't think it's a good idea at this moment in time. There are too many raw feelings left over from Prop 8 and the domestic religious terrorism wrought over the last 8 years.

                      "It's like he channels dead crazy people."

                      by Wltdnfaded on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:39:07 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Warren says that legal abortion in this country (21+ / 0-)

                        is a "Holocaust".  That kind of inflammatory language is what gets people blown up in clinics.

                        Warren is one of those wealth = piety "Christians".  Fulfilling one's potential in service to God is about amassing wealth for this crowd.

                        Warren does not believe in the separation between church and state.

                        Warren is a mild-mannered radical.

                        Obama says he loves Warren's initiatives to "help" the poor and to reach out globally.  I think that is frankly dangerous.  It is bad enough that the radical regligious right has taken such a strong hold over this country, but to promote their hate internationally too?  WTF?

                        Obama has shitty taste in preachers and maybe even in religion too.  That's fine as long as he keeps it to himself.  It is not fine when he imposes his religious beliefs on me in our democracy.

                        He should stick with government as is proscribed in the Constitution of the United States.

                        •  1000 recs, if i could (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          RedMeatDem, maxschell, raincrow, TomP

                          "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

                          by hester on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:28:31 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  I am still very angry at Warren (4+ / 0-)

                          for the ridiculous Saddleback forum and I disagree with him on many issues but you are wrong about the wealth = piety thing.  He is acually against this.  He has MANY flaws but this is not one of them.  He actually has said that while being rich is not a sin dieing rich is.  He also takes no salary from his church and gives a majority of his income from his book away.  I am not condoning his views but there is enough to bash him with without making stuff up.

                          •  His take is undisclosed and if you sell (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            maxschell

                            20 million books, you can afford to make that "grand gesture".

                            There is a reason why he has done so well in Orange County.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but he is one of those who has not only built his church on a wealthy flock, but also promotes that wealth = piety gig.

                          •  Can you show me where you are finding the info (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            NH Flaming Moderate

                            regarding wealth=piety stuff?  This is the first I have heard of him saying that and it runs counter to the things I have heard him say.

                          •  I have read a lot about this guy and his (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            maxschell

                            contemporaries in this evangelical movement.  You can start with Troutfishing's and Fredrick Clarkson's diaries if you want to read up on him.  This "moderate" meme about Warren is just bullshit. He's just less heavy-handed than others that have come before him and more clever about making PR moves that create the image that he is different from his peers, but he's not.  He's your average garden-variety mega church leader who has amassed huge wealth by targeting and encouraging wealth.

                        •  if Warren said that, he is an absolute idiot, (0+ / 0-)

                          geesh, fricking rethoric. I think most preachers take themselves way too serious and think God is behind every idiocy they are talking about. Damn, now I am angry. I can't believe what comes out of some preacher's mouths.

                    •  yes, we must have balance! nt (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      inclusiveheart, TomP, mellowwild
                    •  Does he get credit for... not inviting the KKK? (0+ / 0-)

                      I mean, he didn't. You know. Invite the KKK. He's not crazy. Unlike, say, Reagan, who started his Presidential campaign in Philadelphia, Mississippi. Or Bush and McCain, who spoke at Bob Jones University.

                      President-elect Barack Obama.

                      by noabsolutes on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:32:26 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I missed the part where Warren... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mellowwild

                      Lynched anyone, or advocated some kind of literal war on gay people. And where are those Chrisitianist nightriders?

                      This is basically a variation on Godwin's law. It doesn't contribute to this discussion one tiny bit, IMO.

                      Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                      by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:30:39 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Warren calls legal abortion in this country (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        maxschell, fiddlingnero, dewley notid

                        a "Holocaust".  

                        You'll have to talk with him about Godwin's law - which I think is bullshit btw - and about how that kind of inflammatory speech has shown to inspire such paragons of virtue (she said with a deeply sarcastic tone) as Eric Rudolph to bomb abortion clinics and Olympic party goers.

                        Warren denounces the notion of separation of church and state.

                        Warren is a Dominionist.

                        Warren gave President Bush a medal of PEACE just the other day.

                        Warren has advocated and even blessed plenty of war on humankind.

                        If you can tell me with a straight face that there are no other preachers in this vast country who could have come to the inauguration with a record of real peace and love, then maybe you'd have a point.

                        As it stands now, I think your comment adds nothing but a lame excuse for a stupid and very disappointing decision on Obama's part.

                        •  I'm sure I can't find a fundamentalist preacher.. (0+ / 0-)

                          Who could pass your test....and I don't like fundies either, but they are humans who are not all alike. Warren is at least one of the calmer ones. As for giving Bush the Peace medal -- should liberals refuse any dealings with the Nobel committee because they once gave their Peace Prize to Henry Kissinger? Orwellian as hell -- absolutely, but you make peace with your enemies, not your friends.

                          Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                          by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:24:28 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  You really don't get it do you? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            maxschell, fiddlingnero

                            I don't have to make peace with Fundamentalists other than to allow them to do their preaching to each other.  When they elbow their way on to a stage erected for the purpose of launching a political office, then I do have a say about what they think, what they believe and what they seek to do to me or anyone else in this country.

                            They can sit in their churches convincing themselves that they are the closest people to God in the goddamned universe for the rest of their lives and I won't care.  But when they want to insert their hateful religious dogma into our demoratic political system I will tell them to go to hell.  The Constitution actually gives me that right and responsibility as a citizen of this country.

                          •  We totally agree on the idea. (0+ / 0-)

                            Just not the tactics. I'm saying that life is fucked up and you have to deal with it as it comes at you, to some extent. You're saying you should just stand your ground and rhetorically plow down everyone who doesn't see things our way.

                            Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                            by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:43:30 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In certain instances I believe there have to (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            maxschell

                            be firm lines observed - the Constition is one of those for me.

                          •  Then bless you. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                            Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                            by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:17:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Rick Warren has done a lot of good. (0+ / 0-)

                      He is not just a blowhard like Falwell.  His ministries have gone into prisons, tackled poverty, (He even exacted a promise from Obama that he would reduce poverty by half in his administration), as well as the worldwide orphan problem and the AIDS epidemic.  It is hard to recognize that someone who has opposing social views can actually do good, but it is true.  It is not fair to compare him the the Grand Wizard of the KKK.  He is not a hateful person. He has views he holds  which I do not. He fervently believes his as I believe mine.  But, if we are to truly come together to heal and fix this country, we need everyone, the white evangelical Christians too.  They deserve a place at the table, although, as Obama says, not the only place. Don't worry, because everyone will be talking about how Lowry blew him away after it is all over.  I think the balance in the preachers is okay and consistent with his message of unity.  Remember when the gays were up in arms over the gospel singer who sang at his events, the one who thought being gay was a choice?  We got through that. Also, a lot of white evangelicals did vote for him.  I think it is an opportunity for healing and finding common ground.

                      •  What has Warren done when (0+ / 0-)

                        his ministries have "gone into prisons"?  Do you even know?  My father spent the better part of his career "going into prisons" as a defense attorney.  I know what he did.  Going into a prison in and of itself is no badge of honor.  What has he done on HIV/AIDS?  Really?  Can you cite me some serious progress in his efforts that somehow bests the many, many people who have been working on the issue for DECADES like the Methodist Church for instance; and can you really argue now that it is a worldwide epidemic and proven NOT to be a "gay" disease as so many like to think it is that Warren's interest in the issue is in any way sypathetic to the real issues that gay people face regardless of health issues?

                        And why does anyone "deserve" a place at the table?  For my money a place at the table should actually require that folks come with some basic table manners - the most important of which is tolerance and respect for the other people at the table they seek to sit at.  Warren like so many of his ilk are interested in coming to the table so that he can send the rest of us packing if we do not accept his belief that he should not only sit at the head, but also that we will all eat what, how and when he says.  I'd love to sit at a table with him.  I am sure we would have a lively and interesting conversation - and I would have no problem telling him that if he sticks his fork in my food that I'd follow custom and manners that say that at that point it is my right to stab his hand with my fork.

                  •  He knows how to work it. (23+ / 0-)

                    There is often a subtle symbolism, I've noticed, in various of Obama's actions.  Most of us made the connection between Dr. Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech and the DNC's capping off the convention in Mile High Stadium on the anniversary of that speech, but I don't think many were aware that Obama embraced the fuller context of the speech by appearing the next day in a very poor valley.

                    There is some symbolism to be seen here, as well. Warren delivers an invocation before Obama is sworn in, denoting, say, the past.  Rev. Lowery will speak after Obama is sworn in - pointing to the way forward.

                    Thank you, Howard Dean

                    by dharmafarmer on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:18:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes ... (15+ / 0-)

                      there are two sides to this.

                      Obama can retreat to the comfort of our Leftish Fortress and just honor people we agree with.

                      Or he can take the opportunity to move the right leftwards by picking Rick Warren who (in comparison to the Hagees of the world) may be the sanest of the bunch.

                      If you are uncomfortable with people who can work with both sides of an issue, you're going to hate Obama.

                      (Seeing both sides does not mean losing sight of the rightness of gay marriage.)

                      "We will learn an enormous amount in a very short time, quite a bit in the medium term and absolutely nothing in the long term." Grantham on 2008 Crisis

                      by Bronxist on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:34:00 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  actually (12+ / 0-)

                        When you tell people who hate gays they are important, and give their leaders prominent public roles in historic ceremonies, this does not give them any incentive to give up on their hateful views.

                        You defeat bigotry precisely by isolating it and making it weird and socially unacceptable.  

                        Help build the Progressive Governing Majority at Open Left

                        by Scientician on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:05:15 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  What I haven't seen in these discussions (13+ / 0-)

                          is that having Warren speak may allow my aunt to give herself permission to listen to Obama on a deeper level and maybe the possibility to learn to like The Other Guy whom she learned to fear during the election because he is from the extreme left wing or whatever crap her church was espousing.  

                          Having Warren there may allow many who did not vote for Obama to let go of their hate and fear - that's why I think he did it.

                          All I want for Christmas is impeachment

                          by MsGrin on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:38:17 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  or it may encourage them (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            maxschell, Scientician

                            to think that hating and fearing gay people is just fine, and is perfectly normal. Warren compared gays to pedophiles, repeatedly, publicly, very recently. As Scientician said that kind of speech needs to be isolated and treated as weird and horrible. Instead Warren is receiving a huge honor from the President of the United States.

                            koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                            by m3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:12:01 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The crazy thing is ... (0+ / 0-)

                            hating and fearing gay people is sadly the norm in this country.

                            The only way (in most parts of this country) that you can "isolate" hateful speakers is by locking yourself inside a very small box.

                            We still have not rid ourselves of "Don't ask Don't tell" and we're already in the "Gay Marriage or Bust" moment?

                            "We will learn an enormous amount in a very short time, quite a bit in the medium term and absolutely nothing in the long term." Grantham on 2008 Crisis

                            by Bronxist on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:13:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bronxist

                            what Mr. Warren says, that gays are equivalent to pedophiles, is way outside of what average people in this country think. I'm not sure how you made the leap from "I do not want to honor someone who says I am as evil as a pedophile" to "Gay Marriage or Bust", but this is not some kind of purity trolling. It is simply standing up for myself as a real human being who is not in any way comparable to a pedophile. I find it utterly bizarre that anyone thinks I should do otherwise.

                            You are probably arguing that we should start some kind of "dialogue" with Mr. Warren. Where we need to start a dialogue on gay rights is with the middle, which is quite large and quite persuadable. Mr. Warren has made a deliberate decision to lie about gay people and encourage people to hate us. There is absolutely no reason to think that honoring him with this invitation will make him stop that. The way to make people stop saying outrageous things is to marginalize them.

                            koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                            by m3 on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 05:28:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're right (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            m3

                            The pedophilia comparison was out of line and he should retract it before any dialogue is possible.

                            The polygamy comparison was less offensive, and frankly, a bit curious given how often it happens in the bible.

                            Sorry for confusing your position with purity trolling.

                            "We will learn an enormous amount in a very short time, quite a bit in the medium term and absolutely nothing in the long term." Grantham on 2008 Crisis

                            by Bronxist on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 06:33:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bronxist

                            The polygamy comparison is actually somewhat valid, given that it involves (more or less) consenting adults. I don't buy it as a slippery slope but it's not inherently offensive. It can actually be a helpful comparison, as you say, because it is endorsed by the Bible and stands as a counterexample to the tradition argument.

                            koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                            by m3 on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 07:45:31 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Think of it like evolution ... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          dharmafarmer, mellowwild

                          Obama is picking Warren as the "sanest of the bunch" for now. It is going to take many more generations for us to evolve a gay-friendly right-wing pastor.

                          (If you hate the genetic engineering metaphor, then think of it as causing dissension in the ranks of the enemy ...)

                          But really what Obama is doing makes political sense -- much as I hate it.

                          "We will learn an enormous amount in a very short time, quite a bit in the medium term and absolutely nothing in the long term." Grantham on 2008 Crisis

                          by Bronxist on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:38:52 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  fine, it's like evolution (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Bronxist, Scientician

                            Then this is an opportunity for selective pressure on the population of evangelical preachers. Instead Obama is essentially making people like Warren, who are not in the slightest bit sane or moderate, more successful.

                            Warren has said the same things about gay people that Santorum, Dobson, and Cornyn have. And now he is being honored. There's no reason to think this will encourage him or anyone else to stop talking about gay people like we're pieces of shit.

                            koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                            by m3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:00:05 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, it IS like evolution. (0+ / 0-)

                            That Obama would allow  a "creationist" to share a stage with him is an abomination.  Creationism is abhorrent to truth, fact and science.  There is only one "right" view on evolution, it exists as scientific truth.  Creationism denies truth.

                            Likewise, there are not a wide range of acceptable perspectives on whether it is OK to spew hatred about gays or legitimize torture and call it "preaching".

                            Here, there is a clear right and wrong.  There is a just and an unjust.  And Obama has not chosen the side of justice.

                            Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

                            by maxschell on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 11:49:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Work both sides of an issue (7+ / 0-)

                        Our future President is asking us all, I think, to take a more cerebral approach to solving problems. It's been my experience with bigots and racists, for instance, that direct confrontation and emotional appeals only serve to make them dig their heels in deeper. Sometimes their prejudices seem so deeply ingrained that they don't appear at all susceptible to change, but long-term exposure to good example and, sometimes, the short-term example of visceral contrast, can, in the least, cause them to reflect, which, in itself, is a big accomplishment!

                        Thank you, Howard Dean

                        by dharmafarmer on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:19:31 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  there is engaging with them (0+ / 0-)

                          and there is rewarding them. Opening a dialogue with Warren on poverty or AIDS is working both sides of an issue. Giving him the huge honor of speaking at the inauguration is an endorsement.

                          koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                          by m3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:13:37 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  OK, here's a third side to this... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        m3, Odysseus, dewley notid

                        I don't think honoring Rick Warren and implicitly respecting his APPALLING BIGOTRY (no, I just don't care that he has a "religious" justification for it; every bigot does, sooner or later) is moving the right leftward. I think it's moving the middle rightward, and it's already wayyyyyy over there.

                        And this isn't about "our Leftish Fortress". It's about my actual civil rights and my actual marriage to my flesh-and-blood spouse, the one eating cereal downstairs right now, the one who has honored and cared for me for longer than Mr Warren has had his nice big soapbox on which to kindly and with christian love pontificate that we're just like child-rapists and dog-fuckers.

                        •  Ok ... (0+ / 0-)

                          If the symbolism is important to you, then I cannot argue - it is important at some emotional level.

                          But irrespective of whom Obama chooses to invoke a non-existent deity on his inaugural day, I still have to wake up the next day and collect a paycheck from a homophobic boss, talk to a homophobic neighbor, take care of a homophobic mom and watch friends send their kids off to a homophobic military.

                          Obama can throw the gayest inauguration in history, and it still won't make any difference in the America I live in. I can't lock myself into a leftish fortress and choose and pick who I engage with. And all I know from my day-to-day is that people are changeable.

                          So, what are we really doing to make gay marriage legal? Sign me up for that!

                          "We will learn an enormous amount in a very short time, quite a bit in the medium term and absolutely nothing in the long term." Grantham on 2008 Crisis

                          by Bronxist on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:27:48 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Just look which preacher has the last word . (5+ / 0-)

                      that's the first thing I thought reading the diary. Thanks for writing this, I am happy to have learned something about Joseph Lowery. I hope he seizes the day with his closing words.

                •  No bridge is necessary. Homophobes should not (10+ / 0-)

                  be getting a platform at any inaugural.  Period.  End of story.  Your comment says it all to those who think that this is a gesture of conciliation, enlightenment or some sort of dog whistle to conservatives that Obama, (wink, wink) is open to both sides of the homophobe argument.

                  The question could be put another way:  Would Obama stand for an anti-black preacher who equated interracial marriage with destroying the white race?

                  Anti-gay vs. anti-black.  No difference to me.

                  And I don't give a shit if Obama does not support gay marriage.  That is no reason to have a vowed homophobe on Inauguration Day, nor is it the change I thought I was going to get.

                  It is more of the same, not change.

              •  give us change? (11+ / 0-)

                Building a "bridge of understanding" with a hard-core bigot is as unprofitable and unlikely an endeavor as is possible for a human to conceive, and generally a waste of time. From what I've been able to observe in the accounts of others, since I've never seen this in person, this doesn't happen by deliberate attempt, in the rare cases when this happens, it's by accident.

                I'm certain the President-elect knows this.

                Whatever reason Obama has for having Rick Warren front and center at the beginning of his Inauguration, building a "bridge of understanding" is by far the most unlikely one.

                I'd call this an incredibly cynical political maneuver to an end that probably is not the obvious one. All we can hope for is that it does not blow up in Obama's face. Or more to the point, in OUR faces.

                Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 03:55:36 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Look (6+ / 0-)

                  You can't run this country by excluding these people or you are doomed to suffer the same fate as GWB.  FDR and Reagan were successful because they appealed to most Americans.

                  I know everyone is bitter about the last 8 years, but we have to prove to everyone that Democrats are not an exclusive bunch, we're INCLUSIVE.  This is how you win elections and maintain power.  

                  If you can bring your opposition closer you your way of thinking, you've already won.

                  Obama is OUR generation's JFK

                  by Vigla on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:50:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Inclusive doesn't mean inviting hate speech (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    alizard

                    and yeah, i want Obama to exclude people who promote bigotry, sexism, racism, the whole 9 yards. Keep them away.

                    "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

                    by hester on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:31:57 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You think that Warren is going to invoke any (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LABobsterofAnaheim, mellowwild

                      of those issues?

                      •  I highly doubt that Obama told Warren to (6+ / 0-)

                        let it all lose and have at it.  I am sure they have had conversations about this and it is about Obama, not Warren.  Obama is actually doing what he said he would do all along.  You can't change peoples minds on things when you shut them out.  This is also part of being a real Christian - something the Warrens of the world need to learn about.

                        •  bigots don't generally change their minds (4+ / 0-)

                          The old-time Southern bigots didn't, by and large after the civil rights movement for blacks finally won. They were silenced by the fact that no sane organization would put them in front of a microphone to spout their bullshit and eventually, when they died and were not replaced.

                          The kids of someone like Warren might be reachable, at least when their parents aren't looking.

                          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                          by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:04:16 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I Have Homophobic Bigots in My Family (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            alizard

                            They don't change their minds they die off.

                            RMD

                            The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

                            by RedMeatDem on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:23:14 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you really think Warren is going to go off (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sherijr, mellowwild, Escamillo

                            during his little prayer and go all hate speech right before Obama takes his oath?  More than doubtful.

                          •  I regard it as extremely unwise (0+ / 0-)

                            for Obama to take that chance. Even if he doesn't, he's still given Rick Warner an extra "10 minutes of world fame" that'll make him look like a respectable mainstream preacher instead of the dangerous crazy he really is, and that's a  disservice to the nation.

                            Since you obviously didn't click on the link that'll provide you with Warren's background in the other post, please do so that you might actually know what you're talking about.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 02:02:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

                            You really think they died off or they just shut up?  Did you watch the McCain rallies at all?  

                            I honestly believe that people are entitled to their opinion, but when they try to puch it on everyone else, like abortion rights, gay marriage, etc., that's when they cross the line because they start infringing on other people's rights.  It's the idea of individual rights that the religious right needs to understand, and it's up to us to help them understand it.

                            Obama is OUR generation's JFK

                            by Vigla on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 06:09:00 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  old-time southern bigots? (0+ / 0-)

                            "no sane organization would put them in front of a microphone to spout their bullshit"

                            Just what part of the modern GOP organization can be considered sane by a reasonable person? Hint: Palin's the front runner for 2012, and unless Obama screws up massively, she's going to lead the GOP over the cliff. I expect her to be the very last "national" candidate of the GOP... and a new corporate-funded center-right party in search of a constituency to replace the GOP for 2016.

                            The other point should be obvious. The old-time Southern bigots are in general, dead. These are new bigots... however, even they themselves are part of a shrinking minority. But a noisy and well-funded one, relatively speaking.

                            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                            by alizard on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 03:47:13 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Watch and see if he doesn't weave it in somehow. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        alizard, dewley notid

                        The pressure is already on him to do it.

                        The megaphone is too big for them to bypass this one.

                        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                        by bronte17 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:12:56 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Sure (0+ / 0-)

                      Of course we should denounce hate, but when it comes to religion it's much more complex.  This is not like racism where white bigots believed they were better than blacks and deserved a higher place in society.  This has to do with 2000+ years of religious intolerance fostered by organized religion.  I mean, many of the original immigrants that came to this country in the 1600's were forced here because of religious intolerance.

                      You certainly don't change this kind of behavior by not talking to them.  Many of them are reasonable people.  You have to know how to talk to them and perhaps over time you can make a difference.  Nobody said it would be easy.

                      Obama is OUR generation's JFK

                      by Vigla on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 06:04:20 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  the Religious Right extremists (4+ / 0-)

                    are a shrinking minority whose beliefs are getting weirder and more fanatic as they shrink in number.

                    Bush failed in part because they were his followers. putting religion and ideology ahead of common sense when they are put into government administrative positions. Monica Goodling is straight out of that scene.

                    And you want to bring them into the tent with us? Do you spray mosquito attractant on yourself wheb you go hiking?

                    Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                    by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:56:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                      I have to say that if you actually think the that religious right is a shrinking minority I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you...

                      They're still around.  They just didn't vote for McCain and stayed home.  You're delusional if you think that if the Republicans field another religious fanatic they won't come out in droves.  You are going to have to convince them that they shouldn't be voting for stupid things like abortion or gay marriage, but for national prosperity and economic health.  You CAN reach these people.  YOu just have to know how to talk to them and make them see what is really important.

                      Obama is OUR generation's JFK

                      by Vigla on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 06:18:50 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  he isn't. n/t (3+ / 0-)

                "History is a tragedy, not a melodrama." - I.F.Stone

                by bigchin on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:34:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "smartest campaign in history" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TomP

                I wish people wouldn't say things like this.  How could you possibly know that?  What metric could you use to define this?

                For sake of argument, what if it were Bush's 2000 campaign?  After all, he won the Presidency despite losing the election.  The bafflegab and ratfucking they did in Florida was ingenius.

                Help build the Progressive Governing Majority at Open Left

                by Scientician on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:02:36 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Before the economy crashed, (6+ / 0-)

                  it was very close.  Obama is good overall, even with this horrendous pandering to hatred, but the Obama fundamentalists no longer see a man.  he can do not wrong.  It's always three dimensional chess.  Anything he does is by definition progressive.

                  But you know what?  If one cannot critcize Obama when he's wrong, the praise given when he's right is meaningless.

                  You can never really say "yes," if you're incapable of saying "no."

                  "What we've seen the last few days is nothing less than the final verdict on an economic philosophy that has completely failed." -- Barack Obama

                  by TomP on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:33:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Negative Feedback == Traitor (0+ / 0-)

                    Got it from Bushites.

                    Getting it from Obamites.

                    It's not our job to sing only songs of praise.

                    RMD

                    The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

                    by RedMeatDem on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:25:53 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Negative Feedback==over the top caterwhauling (0+ / 0-)

                      I totally understand why people, particularly gay people, are upset over this. I disagree that it's a big deal and am willing to entertain the possibility that Obama might know what he's doing here since he has proven himself to be extremely shrewd time and time again -- but my larger disagreement is with the extreme tone of many of the posts that Obama has now proven himself to be, in fact, a traitor to his supporters and is pretty much selling out his entire agenda with this one act or some combination of this and whatever appointment a particular person is upset about.

                      In general, we Kossacks have a real issue with a sense of proportion. If, in two or three years, there has been only backward progress on issues like gay marriage -- THEN we'll have something to caterwhaul about. Now, I think people are just getting in practice for controversies to come.

                      Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                      by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:58:29 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wait... THREE MORE YEARS??? (0+ / 0-)

                        There is a lot wrong with the USA and one of them is the constant asking people to wait.

                        Remember JFK asked Martin Luther King to wait... and he didn't.

                        Time is over for waiting quietly and meekly for politicians to get around to equality for all.

                        RMD

                        The Bushiter's Iraq 2004 - 1268 Dead, about 25K Medivacs and 9000 Maimed... It's the Bushiter Way, wasting other people's money and lives. And it's worse now.

                        by RedMeatDem on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:48:49 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm sorry. Rome WAS built in a day. (0+ / 0-)

                          It depends on what you mean. I certainly expect Obama to start working on gay rights from the start, especially after this, but if you think LGBT people are going to get everything over night -- and 3 years is a very short time compared to thousands of years of homophobia taken as a matter of course -- you're just begging for a major disappointment.

                          Besides, he's got few other issues to take care of, as well. I guarantee you this -- there'll be no progress on gay rights if there's mass starvation because of the economic collapse, the energy foul-up, and global warming.

                          Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

                          by LABobsterofAnaheim on Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 06:23:13 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  He attended an open & affirming church (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ETF, mellowwild

                Trinity United is an open and affirming church (i.e., totally supportive of gays). He attended for years. He got crap for something totally unrelated in that church (Rev. Wright's phrophetic tradition sermons).

                I have to take that into consideration--much more than one speaker/preacher out of two at the inauguration. The man is tolerant. Way more than most of us dKos readers are, imho!

              •  It kind of seems like symbolism to (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mellowwild

                me.  Warren is an example of where the country seems to be starting and Lowery is where we are heading.

                We never know the worth of water `til the well is dry. Thomas Fuller 1732

                by Amber6541 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:46:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  You think the pulpit of the Inaugural Invocation (128+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PeWi, Michi, Terri, Phoenix Woman, hester, AaronInSanDiego, SadEagle, Guaunyu, Lipstick Liberal, John Campanelli, bam bam, goObama, Blue Patriot Woman, bronte17, Stumptown Dave, khloemi, Bronxist, MJB, UK LibDem Dave, LawStudent, baad, SneakySnu, hhex65, oldjohnbrown, yet another liberal, Sychotic1, mbdaug, arielle, bwintx, ybruti, marcom, xndem, marina, JanetT in MD, Sharon in MD, LABobsterofAnaheim, lauramp, FindingMyVoice, bruised toes, bartman, Crisis Corps Volunteer, elliott, trashablanca, GeoGrl, ravenwind, Mahnkenstein, goodasgold, lastamendment, blueintheface, pgm 01, Cronesense, meowmissy, NDakotaDem, bfbenn, jds1978, Matt Z, sfbob, Seneca Doane, chicago jeff, cyncynical, MadAsHellMaddie, Rusty5329, CDH in Brooklyn, lineatus, DailyKingFish, vernonbc, DeepInTheWoods, msdrown, Grass, dmhlt 66, Purple Priestess, jedley, ksduck, christine20, Calouste, snackdoodle, DemocraticOz, RandomActsOfReason, ScientistSteve, SDuvall, drhgl19, fToRrEeEsSt, NWTerriD, degreesofgray, conlakappa, mdmslle, fernan47, Livvy5, AkaEnragedGoddess, NuttyProf, ETF, marybluesky, Texas Girl in Cali, BrighidG, mamamorgaine, tigermom3, loper2008, stegro, My mom is my hero, jdw112, TheWesternSun, leftist vegetarian patriot, pinkomommy, creamer, jqu, AvgPseudoIntellectual, elginblt, Anne933, aclockworkprple, Anne was here, nosleep4u, alexa100, JustForTheRecord, Vigla, NellaSelim, renbear, bottlerocketheart, rblinne, kevin k, blueinmn, Poycer, sweeneymcbean, mellowwild, dbmddb, Escamillo, athena47, yellow is my favorite color, MuskokaGord

              is bigger than the pulpit already afforded to the guy who wrote and sold more than 20 million copies of THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE?

              Um, really?

              Perspective, please.
              As a gay activist who cares for the entire progressive MOVEMENT, i beg you to step back and take a moment to consider treating the people you hate the way you want them to treat you.

              Even knowing that GWBush is an asshole of the highest order, it would have stunned and thrilled me had he invited Rev Troy Perry of MCC (Metropolitan Community Church, the GAY congregation) to give the invocation at his inauguration.
              Would it have meant that he was any more progressive? Not especially.  But it would have made me stop hating him long enough to give him the benefit of the doubt in his first weeks.
              (As I hope Warren's congregants will treat Obama's fledgling presidency)

              And if GWB had been the kind of man who could invite a man who would be seen as unclean by most of his base to be a part of his inauguration, he would surely have not been such a useless piece of doubt-impaired and conscience-free shit.

              Obama isn't attacking us.
              He is inviting these religionists back into the tent.  And they know that we were here first.

              People are basically good (when prepared correctly)

              by Commoditize This on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:32:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I agree. What the hell? (4+ / 0-)

              Of all the pastor's he could've used Rick Warren is the frickin worst. I have have not criticized Obama for any of the decisions he's made so far but this decision IMHO is inexcusable. Warren is a disgrace. The forum he did with Obama and Mcpain was infuriating. I never heard of this guy then and after the forum I hoped to never hear about him again. To me that would be like asking Dobson to do the invocation. What the hell is Obama thinking? Balance my ass. I will say that at least his choice of Lowery was a well thought out choice. But Rick Warren, I'm still in shock.

              Ho ho frickin ho, ho.

              by desnyder on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:34:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  How does it do that cause harm? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LABobsterofAnaheim

              Don't get me wrong, I'm a zealous advocate of eqality and justice for all. But I'm just wondering how Warren giving a prayer at the inauguration concretely sets that cause back.

              I worry people get too hung up on symbols, when we must demand results. If Obama stocks his Cabinet with homophobes, but comes out forcefully for marriage equality, I would prefer that over his mushy support for civil unions.

              The time for symbolic support is over.

            •  Who spoke at Bush's inaugural? (0+ / 0-)

              Who spoke at Clinton's.  All I remember is the poem about Bill.  

              GOP = Godless opposition party We Hassle to make America a Vassal (state)

              by Shhs on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:03:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, but (11+ / 0-)

            the point is that Obama still has to be their president, too. This segment of the population is increasingly do-or-die. Love America or leave it: they consider both on a monthly basis.

            You either declare war on them as a political leader or court them. Hillary Clinton joined them. Most Dems are almost indistinguishable from them. Howard Dean and Obama are at least on the irrefutably Christian left.

            Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

            by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:51:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Those aren't the only choices (16+ / 0-)

              Why so binary?  Can't Obama merely repudiate bigoted values, and refuse the tacit endorsement Warren's involvement evokes?  That's hardly scorched earth warfare, that's merely standing for the principle of fundamental human equality.

              "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

              by fishhead on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:04:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The choices are binary (10+ / 0-)

                because the religious right is binary. It's sort of inherent in their discourse. Which they stole from the Zoroastrians ;)

                Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:07:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  This plays into their mindset, I think fishhead (3+ / 0-)

                  may be right on this one Nulwee.  Sometimes you need to take a stand on rigth and wrong.  You can be friendly about it, but sometimes you need to draw line in the sand.

                  The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                  by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:18:50 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Um, no. Where the heck do you get this from? (0+ / 0-)

                  We in the West have such a glib and flippant "intellectual preciousness" about  Middle Eastern religion. Please educate yourself.

                  "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

                  by TheWesternSun on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:42:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Christianity (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DrJeremy, TheWesternSun

                    is a middle eastern religion, so whatever. I'm also not exactly a Westerner. But thanks for playing.

                    Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                    by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:46:19 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well, cool. But my point in that (0+ / 0-)

                      the flippant comment about Zoroastrianism comes from blatant ignorance about that particular view.

                      Christianity is from the Abrahamic tradition that gave rise to Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Zoroastrianism is derived from a much older stream of authentic teaching.

                      "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

                      by TheWesternSun on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:55:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  YOU need to do some reading, too. (6+ / 0-)

                        The sacrificed god born of a virgin who returns from the dead is far older than the Abrahamic traditions.

                        I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

                        by The Werewolf Prophet on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:39:25 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh, my, yes! (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AlanF

                          It's been a long time since I did reading on this, but isn't Mithra one of the first virgin-born savior gods? About 500 years before Christianity, I believe.

                          But old religions are simply that; old. It doesn't give them any more cachet than new religions. I, for one, much prefer the doctrine of the FSM to almost all "old" religions!

                        •  Actually, I don't read about this. I go to (0+ / 0-)

                          places like the Middle East and Subcontinent and meditate with people in the ishraqi tradition of Shihabuddin Suhrawardi, the Sufi Master of Light. Yes, older than Abrahamic traditions, indeed, but vastly enriched by same.

                          "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

                          by TheWesternSun on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:29:16 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  It's not so simple (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RedMeatDem, Sparhawk, DaleA, alizard, HoundDog

                Why is Warren there? Pandering, to the same group of people who hate him and will continue to hate him after the inauguration, particularly if he does anything serious to reverse Bush's abortion rules, Don't Ask Don't Tell etc. So all that while alienating the GLBT who fervently supported him.

                So are people saying there is not one conservative minister in the country who may be against gay marriage but doesn't say gay people are criminals, that gay marriage is like incest? Not one more reasonable possibility? It had to be Warren, no matter what?

                A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:10:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  How many (8+ / 0-)

                  members of the religious right are you familiar with? Most Americans have no concept of him as a hateful figure. He's popular because he's not perceived as like Falwell or other previous gen evangelicals. Like Huckabee he's one of their friendliest faces.

                  Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                  by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:12:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  One important role for a President (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    slinkerwink, alizard, abrauer

                    is a pedagogical one.  How is the view that Warren is an acceptable figure anything but further entrenched when you offer him the bully pulpit of a presidential inaugural?  Is your view that because the American people believe his views are acceptable (a proposition I'll grant you, despite the fact that neither one of us really knows), then Obama should accommodate that opinion?

                    "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

                    by fishhead on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:27:18 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Bully Pulpit? (8+ / 0-)

                      I'm not sure it's much of a bully pulpit even if it's got to be great for his name brand.

                      I don't think Obama should accomodate the religious right beyond an acknowledgement that's real and sincere and appreciative.

                      But this is counterbalanced by the fact that Obama is hiring GLBT figures, that a GLBT marching band will be playing in the inaugural, and there's a good chance gay marraige will make its biggest moves yet in the states during his presidency.

                      It's not a one-sided situation, and the egregious problems of having Warren speak don't need to be made any larger than they are. It's being represented like he's going to be preaching against gays at this ceremony. And if Obama was Catholic and virtually any American bishop was speaking there? Would that be much different? Virtually all of the major religious bodies in this country are deeply homophobic. Rick Warren's not even among the most vile, even if he is vile.

                      Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                      by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:36:07 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  "like he's going to be preaching against gays" (0+ / 0-)

                        Would you bet that he isn't going to? Once that guy's in front of a microphone, the cannon is loose. Anybody (presumably media) with an advance copy of Warren's remarks had better pay close attention to what he actually says because what the advance copy says and what he actually does say may not have the slightest resemblance to each other.

                        If Warren goes off the reservation, it's lose-lose for Obama whether he goes on talking or if security drags him offstage.

                        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

                        by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:24:11 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Well, here's an alternative (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        abrauer

                        How about the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church?

                        And regardless of Obama's religious affiliation, I would be upset if he had the active participation of a homophobic religious leader.  Especially one as prominently vocal on the subject as Warren.

                        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

                        by fishhead on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:49:57 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  If he's one of the friendliest faces (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    loper2008, abrauer

                    the country is in more trouble than I thought.

                    Ho ho frickin ho, ho.

                    by desnyder on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:50:25 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah but (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Timbuk3, desnyder, abrauer

              He'll be the president of racists too, many of whom would love to see him shot dead. People who preach hate against ANYBODY do not deserve such a big national platform.

              A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

              by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:07:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That doesn't make any fucking sense (9+ / 0-)

                This gesture right or wrong will involve no actual preaching against gays. It's a simple prayer. Whether or not you agree has jack shit to do with it, you can still make sense.

                There's a gay marching band that will precede it won't mean a tacit approval of gay marraige on Obama's part.

                Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:11:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wrong (8+ / 0-)

                  This person who spreads hate will be giving the "blessing"
                  Millions will see this man who calls gay people "criminals" as not such a bad guy because he got the marquee position at the Obama inauguration.

                  No, a gay marching band doesn't mean tacit approval. But putting someone on stage who hates millions of your fellow Americans is a bit different. I know I would never willingly have a homophobe or racist in MY house, because to a degree, it DOES show tacit approval.

                  So Warren is the only pastor in all of the United States that could do this? It had to be him do or die?
                  No one else who might be conservative but didn't say gay people are criminals? Wow, we must have a real pastor shortage in this country..

                  A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                  by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:16:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It's easy to go for the angry answer (14+ / 0-)

                    but that still doesn't make any sense. So by Obama hiring gay staff that makes him what? Extremely contradictory? Since he's obviously approving of Rick Warren's homophobia.

                    Most people do not associate Warren with homophobia. That doesn't make him less homophobic, but it does mean that that's not exactly the message people are going to be taking away from it.

                    Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                    by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:39:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't think Obama is homophobic (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sparhawk, opinionated, Timbuk3

                      I think he is pandering to a certain group for political points. Would I object to a conservative there? No. An evangelical? No. Even someone who opposed gay marriage? No. Someone who thinks I am a criminal, that gay marriage is a crime? Yes. That is the unacceptable part.

                      Next time Warren goes on one of his anti-gay hate campaigns, some will remember he was there with Obama. The media will report on the 2-minute kumbaya moment. So they will remember this "nice" man who gave the blessing to the nation. That sounds a whole lot like legitimizing to me. Do you think Obama will stand up to him later when he trashes gays? I think not. He's established as a good friend in the name of "bi-partisanship"...and his hatred becomes immune from criticism by the Obama admin.

                      A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                      by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:53:21 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I'm not sure how many conservative (3+ / 0-)

                        religious leaders haven't said the same kind of thing about gays though. And virtually all but a visible few evangelicals are the same.

                        Warren's argument is derived from Natural Law theology, so he's saying that gays are criminals against nature, not referring to prison, even if he is for criminalization. Again, it's a perfectly common opinion among theologically-trained, mainstream Catholics, Baptists, evangelicals, Mormons.

                        Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                        by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:58:46 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  You can't be serious. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ETF, mellowwild

                        Because Obama invites Warren to give the invocation, you think that will disable Obama from ever criticizing hatred expressed by Warren?

                        That is ludicrous. Obama has demonstrated repeatedly that someone's being an ally or even a personal friend will not keep him from expressing his opinion about something said by that person.

                        January 20th can't get here soon enough.

                        by NWTerriD on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:13:07 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  As the diary implies, it's actually Lowery (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    virginwoolf, mellowwild

                    who will be giving the "blessing."

                •  it doesn't matter what he says (7+ / 0-)

                  He's on the stage, smiling, next to Obama, with a hundred thousand tv cameras pointed at them. It's an endorsement. There's no way to duck around it.

                  koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                  by m3 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:24:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  To me this isn't about just being (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  abrauer

                  anti-gay. This guy represents bigotry and hate. He's a diabolical figure. There were many other choices he could've made that aren't as hateful and controversial as this man.

                  Ho ho frickin ho, ho.

                  by desnyder on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:58:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  excellent point gladkov (0+ / 0-)

                Obama gave us all hope and this is not what hope is about. This is a hateful man who is hopeless.

                Ho ho frickin ho, ho.

                by desnyder on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:55:20 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Maybe Obama is sending a message (10+ / 0-)

              with his choices - "This is where we start (with the invocation), and this is where I plan to go (with the benediction).  

          •  It is my firm belief, that when there is an (6+ / 0-)

            obvious right/wrong situation, right will always win out.  I love the pressure we're putting on those who voted yes on Prop 8 -- it's making the yes folks uncomfortable and that's good.  With Rick Warren involved in Obama's inauguration, the subject remains front and center and that's good, too.  If that's being a polyanna, so be it.  

            "Politics is not left, right or center ... It's about improving people's lives." -Paul Wellstone

            by maggiejean on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:03:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  All well and good (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaleA, lotlizard, HoundDog, maggiejean

              In the meantime, there are people who are eager to express their love for each other in an act of marriage - it's kind of hard to tell them - hey, wait another 15 years... Or even worse..you're marriage is invalidated..

              A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

              by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:12:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know, however, that love will never (4+ / 0-)

                waiver -- not with or without marriage.  This is about equality and in the US we know how long equality takes.  Hell, the Equal Rights Amendment never did get passed and women continue to make less than men for doing the same job.  And, despite Barack Obama's win, blacks will continue to get a ticket for "driving while black."  I remain, however, hopeful.  

                "Politics is not left, right or center ... It's about improving people's lives." -Paul Wellstone

                by maggiejean on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:50:59 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Actually maggiejean your position is curiously (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              maggiejean

              cynical and Machevellien in a refreshing sort of way.

              lol

              :-)

              The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

              by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:21:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  We elected a president whose parents' (13+ / 0-)

            marriage was illegal in many states when he was born.  You think we can't get there on LGBTI rights?   You think those people didn't go ballistic at the thought of a black man a a white woman not only getting married, but procreating, and giving birth to an American president?  They may never budge publicly, but they will budge privately.  They are losing their houses too.

            •  Which is why I think it is fair to expect more (5+ / 0-)

              from Obama than this seperate but equal civil unions only.

              My view is he chose this compromise as a political calculus but will upgrade to support for full equality sometime in the next year.

              But many of his less wise aggressive apoligist here, have been so derisive and sarcastic to the GLBT and ohter communities, with their agressive STFU campaigns that they've stuck a stick in a bee hive and seem hell bent on making it worse.

              Which raises the ante for those of us hoping to sit on the sidelines until after the inauguration.

              Now we are sort of obligated to call on Obama and all of his supportors to support full and equal rights for all American now.

              The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

              by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:25:30 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So how long do you suggest us queers wait ... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                HoundDog

                ... for full civil rights?

                I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

                by The Werewolf Prophet on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:44:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  zero more wait Werewolf. Which is why I say full (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  RedMeatDem

                  equal rights for all Americans now.

                  The Patience has been abused.  We need to return to the original meaning of the fierce urgency of now.

                  And reject this self serving fierce hypocracy of moral complacency.

                  Armband protests and moments of silence at the inauuration.

                  And other marches and protests as well.

                  Maybe more depending on how this plays out.

                  This bullshit as to stop.

                  The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                  by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:53:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  And please accept my apologies for the Democratic (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RedMeatDem, Pd, lotlizard

                    Party's self serving hypocracy in this regard.  I was one of those that asked the GLBT to be patient and just help up elect Dukakis, or the Clintons, or Kerry or Gore, or Obama and then we will make it up to you.

                    I realize now I was played for a fool. And so were you.

                    The time for full equality for all Americans is now.

                    I hear the call of the fierce urgency of now.

                    I hear the freedom train Rev King promised for all Americans.

                    We can and should wait no longer.  We must reject those who suggest the GLBT sit in the back of the bus for a more convenient time.

                    The inauguration committee seems to want to choose this day to stick a finger in the eye of the GLBT so this is the most appropriate day to let them know about some alternative diverse viewpoints on the subject.

                    Rainbow armbands for all who wish to show solidarity with the GLBT and let them know we are sorry for exploiting their patience for so long.

                    Yes, we've been hypocritical self serving bastards about it, but some of us are sorry, and will do our best to make it up.

                    Let's win full equality for all Americans, NOW!

                    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                    by HoundDog on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:00:23 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Wow, you are SUCH a moron, (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Michi, AaronInSanDiego, lauramp, vernonbc

                      you were sooo totally played.  Supporting Democrats, seriously, what WERE you thinking?  McCain/Palin would have been all over gay rights.  Just like Bush was.

                      I just absolutely CANNOT believe that you voted for Obama.  I mean, what would he know about marriages that are illegal in several states?

                      •  I don't find your comments helpful Dr Jeremy (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lotlizard, abrauer

                        Of course Obama is better than McCain, I would not change that vote.

                        But I also, now admit that I was wrong not to speak up more earlier about the inadequacy of the civil unions compromise.

                        I could have supported Obama without supporting this position.  

                        Where do you stand now today on full equality?

                        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                        by HoundDog on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:29:44 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I stand where I stood years ago, (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          RedMeatDem, vernonbc, ETF

                          where I have always openly stood, that anything less than marriage is unacceptable.  As I told Howard Dean before he even ran for President, for what it's worth.  Not that he cares what I think, because really, why should he?  I just told him because it was important to me.

                          Why do you ask?

                          •  Well, I 'm trying to understand the source of (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lotlizard, DrJeremy, abrauer

                            your critical comments of me.  

                            I've personally support marriage equality for a long time, however, I backed down somewhat to ask folks like you to support the Democratic nominees who only supported civil unions.  For about 20 year or more, now.

                            And I'm feeling bad about it, and wondering if I was wrong.  But more importantly agreeing to support full equality now.

                            But then you call me a moron, and I'm just trying to figure it out.  

                            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                            by HoundDog on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:53:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm sorry, I was not calling you a (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lauramp, HoundDog, vernonbc, ETF

                            moron at all, i was being sarcastic about people who seem to think it's moronic to support Democrats because the Repubs are, what, more on our side on the gay marriage issue?  I was absolutely not calling you a moron at all.

                            I just frustrated at the people who say, "well, the Dems aren't trying to give me 100% what I want, so I'm jumping on the Palin express." or they imply it.

                            Dean, for example, to my instinct, is 100% in favor of gay marriage, but never felt he could say it in public, for political reasons.  That doesn't mean he doesn't support it and isn't fighting for it behind the scenes, but you push to hard, and you will get a hard push back.  I think Obama knows what he is doing, and I trust him on this one.

                          •  Ok, good, because I value your opinion and have (2+ / 0-)

                            struggled with this issue for a long time, trying to explain to my GLBT friends why I was so enthusiastic about Dukakis, Clinton,  Gore, Kerry, Dean, Obama and others in our party who took the civil union compromise position, which I myself supported on occasion.

                            But, now it seems we are in a new period after winning the election.

                            And we must let our GLBT brothers and sisters that we do not intend to do this forever.

                            I am still hopeful that Obama will become a hero in this battle and join in the support for full equality and help spread this viewpoint.

                            Thanks for clarifying.

                            :-)

                            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                            by HoundDog on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 01:42:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And I'm really, really sorry you thought (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            HoundDog

                            I was calling you a moron.  I thought the sarcasm was clear.  Guess it's all about the tone of voice, eh?

                          •  Well, its been such a confusing day. And I'm (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lotlizard, abrauer

                            sort of hyper sensitive to criticism, which is one reason I try to avoid these "upseting" issues.

                            But, I'm really confused at these top rec'd diaries that appaer to be openly, cruelly, and sarcastically making fun of those in the GLBT communities that are hurt?

                            How can this be going on?  What am I missing?

                            If someone tried to do such a diary trivializing the pain and sufferring of the AA communities and then started making jokes in the name of snarky fun, they'd be troll rated into oblivion.  Or Jews, or woman.

                            When did if become such a source of progressive merriment to mock the GLBT?

                            Why are such otherwise respectable Kossack, reviling in these shameful exercises?

                            Is it become is it done in the name of supporting Obama?  I'm sure he would disavow, denounce, and renounce such "support."

                            What's going on?

                            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                            by HoundDog on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 01:46:56 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  No time, should have been (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  HoundDog

                  done ages ago.  So, what do you think is the best way to move forward and get there ASAP?  And not civil unions, which is BS, but marriage?

                  •  Full equality now. No more of this self serving (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    opinionated, lotlizard, abrauer

                    hypocritical seperate but equal civil unions bullshit.  

                    Not from homophobes
                    Not from the Democratic Party
                    Not from our friends at DKos
                    Not from Obama.

                    Full equality now.  

                    Fierce urgency of now, meet the fierce hypocisy of self serving moral complacency.

                    And let the sparks fly.

                    Up until tonight I was urging folks to wait until after the inauguration.

                    But an ugly cloud of hypocrisy is brewing.

                    Can we stomach the spectacle of a garish and lavish feast, while the hungry GLBT look on throught the windows, excluded from rights everyone else takes for granted?

                    And to make matters worse, have one of their oppressors sitting at a table of honor and giving speeaches.

                    This happy day of celebration is rapidly turning into a disgraceful exhibition of selffish and self serviing hypocrisy, as so many celebrate victories the GLBT help woman, AAs, Jews, and other ethnic and religious minorities acheive, and now we turn our back on them?

                    No this is not looking like it will be a happy day at all.  

                    A sybollic poke in the eye.

                    We need to send a symbollic gesture to the GLBT that not all of us are so crass, and not all of us will sell them out for such a meager handful of silver.

                    What will this gesture be?  

                    I don't know yet.  Perhaps, rainbow armbands and a moment of silince for the many said and betrayed sould that will die before reaching the promised land.

                    This is not enough.  We need more ideas here.

                    But the time has now come to support full equality for all Americans now.  

                    Of that I am sure.

                    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                    by HoundDog on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:12:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Honestly? (0+ / 0-)

                    Well, in the absence of a turn-around on the Inauguration selections, if Obama would put forth and ram through repeal of DADT, then I'd be satisfied to wait a bit longer for the rest of the pie.

                    Perhaps, if he's elected to a second term, he'll toss aside his political caution and go full out, balls-to-the-wall on GLBTI civil rights.

                    I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

                    by The Werewolf Prophet on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:36:36 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  From your lips to God's ear (0+ / 0-)

                My view is he chose this compromise as a political calculus but will upgrade to support for full equality sometime in the next year.

                I'm going to be sooooo surprised if this happens.  I'm a huge Obama supporter, sent and raised money, worked hard, like the guy a lot -- but I fear there's no reason except wishful thinking to assume that he'll change his tune on this issue anytime soon.  I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

            •  This is a huge point. Thank you. n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DrJeremy

              "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

              by TheWesternSun on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:33:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Well, that's your view. Have at it. n/t (0+ / 0-)

            "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

            by TheWesternSun on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:31:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  there may be a few ideologues (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Patricia Taylor, tigermom3

            who will never be persuaded, but I doubt evangelical christianity will remain opposed to gay marriage--in fact there already is an age gap (younger evangelicals are much more sympathetic to gay rights). In any case, in order to win, you need to TRY to persuade. To think otherwise is defeatest.

          •  Well, you can continue to be (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lauramp, ETF, marybluesky

            a purist and a divisive illusionist, but this won't bring us to a resolution to this society's problems. Without effort, nothing changes. With continued hatred, the divide deepens.

            But go for it if you think that will be constructive in resolving the issues that have divided us for so long.

            I don't.

            Stay tuned, like 3 or 4 years from now.

            We can talk again then.

            "Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illuminates it." ML King

            by TheWesternSun on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:50:11 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's interesting, however, (12+ / 0-)

            that he is opening with the homophobe and closing with Rev. Lowery. He is showing people the way from darkness to light. He is trying to lead people to a better place, but first you have to go to the place where they are to bring them out. It's an old Buddhist theory. President Obama is very Buddhist in his thought processes, probably a function of growing up in Hawaii and Indonesia.

            •  This is the first explanation ... (7+ / 0-)

              ... of preachers and their placement in the inaugural ceremony that makes any sense to this progressive gay man who feels thrown under the bus.

              I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

              by The Werewolf Prophet on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:45:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  well, (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kpardue, jds1978, fernan47, mellowwild

                climb on out from under that bus, Sweetie, and celebrate this momentous day... don't let anything or anyone ruin it for you. We got ourselves a wonderful new President and we may not always understand his actions, but I am convinced we can always trust him.

                Besides, as Phoenix Woman says, Rev Lowery is the best ...he is a truly righteous man. And Aretha just rocks!

                Kisses...
                The Epitome of Fairy Godmothers

                •  lol (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lezlie, ETF

                  i can now stop reading this thread and forget about all this cause i don't give a damn who gets a symbolic voice right now.

                  i give a damn about the policies that obama puts in place and i will hold his feet, head and hands to the fire if he doesn't do the very best possible.

                  period.

                  i am not going to waste my time on hand wringing before the fact.

                  "When Obama speaks, Angels orgasm" Jon Stewart, 2008

                  by fernan47 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:14:25 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Yes to Rev. Lowery (5+ / 0-)
            This is great honor the for Rev. Lowery (a preacher of the Risen Christ, lest anyone think he not orthodox), & Obama is honored by his participation. The balance to this  spiritual leader & preacher is NOT Rick Warren, who measures his influence in books sold, & seats filled & in the number of bigshot politicians he knows;  who cites as his initial inspiration a racist minister who later steered the Southern Baptist Convention toward a fundamentalist conformity & dreary premillenialist theology. Rick Warren is a brand & an industry & an entertainment factory. He is also a homophobe.

            "Only poets know how many poems end up as pies."

            by DJ Rix on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 02:35:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  if they aren't going away (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ETF, tigermom3, mellowwild

            then you really only have two choices: kill them, or get along with them.

            in other words, you can continue to be just as reactionary and xenophobic to their beliefs, as offensive as you might find them, as they are...

            or, you can try and prove why progressives really are the better, more mature, more socially evolved people.

          •  but they aren't in charge anymore (0+ / 0-)
          •  This is not exactly true (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ETF

            there was the recent evangelical Christian who got cannned because he said his mind had been changed. We are slowly changing people's mind. I wish Warren was not going to be there and I still have hope he will withdraw. I have no problem that he is personally opposed to gay marriage but I do have a problem that he is so actively involved in political activity as a pastor. He is too divisive.

            But it is not true that we cannot change Christians minds. My sis is evangelical but voted against Prop 8.

          •  Hearts do change (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Michi, virginwoolf, ETF, mellowwild

            I have a friend who's a conservative Christian.  Way back when, she stopped speaking to me for two years because I got a divorce (SIN!)  But she came around, and asked me to forgive her.  This year, she changed her mind about gay marriage.  There's no way to predict how much people can be changed by dialogue, by reasoned argument, and by keeping up the pressure and the conversation.  

            •  Real change must come from the heart (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mellowwild

              The heart can be led by the mind to that change, it's true; but the change must perfuse the heart to be lasting.

              Dude, your statistical average, which was already in the toilet, just took a plunge into the Earth's mantle. ~ iampunha

              by ETF on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:15:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Children. You're a child. (0+ / 0-)

            "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear, that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States..."

            by dlh77489 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:01:50 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Diplomacy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mellowwild

            Obama's selection of Warren is likely an act of diplomacy.  Diplomacy is necessary even when dealing with an intractable enemy<superscript>*</superscript>, and from my perspective, Americans with whom I disagree - even on some fairly fundamental precepts - aren't my enemies.  Adversaries?  Maybe.  Opponents? Almost certainly.  Enemies?  No.

            To borrow from his own political speeches, consider that Barack Obama is President-Elect not of Blue State America or Red State America or White America or Black America or Brown America or "Judeo-Christian" America or Atheist America, but of the United States of America.

            We live and work with people who hold views radically opposed to our own.  They are still our fellow citizens - our fellow travelers - even when they try to diminish our rights.  The harm to us in giving them a small voice in the inauguration of the man who - mostly against their wishes - is going to be their President, too, is minimal.  The benefit in their knowing that they are being heard will make it easier to challenge them respectfully - but forcefully - later when we must.

            In any event, diplomacy is rarely a bad idea.  As humourous consolation to those beside themselves about Warren speaking, I offer these two oft-quoted gems:

            Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to "Go to hell," in such a way that they actually look forward to the trip.

            and, perhaps more aptly for this situation...

            Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggy while you look for a rock.

            ASPCA Compliance: No animals were harmed in the preparation of this comment.  Will Rogers' advocacy of striking canines with rocks is neither condoned nor promoted by this site or this commenter.

            In any event, I humbly submit that Obama's inclusion of Warren represents:

            (1) "post-Partisan" politics, and/or
            (2) a way to reach out, if only symbolically during a time of national solidarity at the peaceful transition from one government to another, to those with whom we have fought before and will undoubtedly fight again, and/or
            (3) a way to say "nice doggy."

            I am now ready to be told how very, very wrong and stupid I am.

            Please, proceed.

            <superscript>*</superscript> If you are George Bush, Condoleeza Rice, Dick Cheney, or Bill Kristol you may also accuse me of being a Nazi Appeaser.  Again, I say, please proceed.

          •  Or maybe your comment is... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mellowwild

            Sanctimonious crap?

            Just fighting fire with fire.

            I will say that while a full-fledged conversion to non-homophobia is unlikely from Warren himself, or people anytime soon. However, there are a large number of younger "christianists" -- or perhaps we should just say "fundamentalists" or "evangelicals" so as not to taint every single one of them as some kind of terrorist sympathizer (which is the point of the word, since it's a play on "Islamist") -- who are more flexible.

            A young woman called in to NPR during a gay marriage debate the other night to say that she was an evangelical who had recently been married, and that while she disapproved of gay marriage personally, she also realized that there was a difference between a marriage in her church and a civil marriage (and, by extension, we can assume a marriage in someone else's church, too). She basically said, she was open to legalizing gay marriage -- unfortunately, it was the end of the program so we didn't get the conservative pastor's response, which would have been interesting because he was working really hard to seem as non-homophobic as possible for an enemy of the gay community to be.

            But what about the caller? Isn't that what we all want from them? You can't change everyone's opinion, but if you can persuade them that there's opinions don't need to have the force the law, isn't that enough?

            As a secular Jew, I know that people like Pastor Warren believe I'm going to hell...even if I take the "secular" out of that description...but, you know what, as long as he doesn't actually run around chasing me with a pitchfork in a devil suit, I might find his theories of god thoroughly and utterly objectionable -- it's basically something well beyond post-mortem fascism -- but as long as it stays post-mortem I don't really care all that much. As long as the hellfire is only in his mind, it can't hurt me.

            My point is that it's just possible that moves like this can help peel off the votes he needs, and demotivate some potential activists on the next Prop. 8.

            Forward to Yesterday -- Reactionary aesthetics and liberal politics (in that order)

            by LABobsterofAnaheim on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:45:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  So? Opinion is NOT Policy (0+ / 0-)
          •  It goes both ways... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mellowwild

            The GLBT will NEVER budge on their absolute opposition to their pro-life stance.  Both groups can't find common ground because they can't talk to each other, listen to each other and view each other with such hostility.  Therefore, nothing gets done to advance each other positions without creating enemies.

          •  Yea. . .they still believe in slavery, too (0+ / 0-)

            Human progress is glacial, but move it does.

        •  Unicorns and rainbows (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mattman, fishhead, HoundDog

          and the KKK and the NAACP holding hands and singing Coca-Cola jingles together.

          Right.

          You gotta give 'em hope. - Harvey Milk

          by abrauer on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:51:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's one thing (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timbuk3, fiddler crabby

          to have open dialog with those who are not like "us" and who disagree on issues, when those folks are open to dialog.

          But Warren is really only open to monologue. Give him a seat at the table, but don't give him a spotlight.

          "If religion is the opiate of the masses, then fundamentalism is the amphetamine." Miz Vittitow

          by MillieNeon on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 02:51:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps another analogy is if you (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timbuk3, Silent Spring

          have brain cancer - which this country does in the form of Rick Warren and his ilk - one strategy would be to embrace it (like you suggest) and hope that healing magically occurs.  In reality, the patient will die; our country is damn near a terminal state now.

          A better albeit more painful (in the short term strategy) strategy would be to remove the tumor, stomp on it a few times for good measure, and begin chemotherapy.   That's the first step towards real healing . . . and if we had only done that during earlier manifestations of what now ails us (e.g., criminally prosecuted and jailed Nixon and his felons so that anyone associated with him - like Cheney & Rumsfeld would be permanently tainted as well as putting the kibosh on this whole "oh I'm so religious vote for me" schtick that Jimmy Carter started big-time).

          •  our country was built (5+ / 0-)

            on opposing viewpoints.

            the only reason our country is hurting right now is that the right has tried to shut out all opposing viewpoints for the past 30 years.

            the fact that you think we should do the same, just the other direction, shows you haven't learned a single thing from their failures.

            •  So you'd also welcome input (0+ / 0-)

              into the national discussion from - oh let's pick a random example and say - the KKK?

              I'm not talking about "opposing views" here - I'm talking about those who over the past 30 years had shredded 200 years of progress (who'd ever thunk that'd we go from a country where people go to escape torture to one that has a global torture network in place?).

              Seems to me you're the one who has learned nothing from the past 30 years.

              •  you can't discredit someone's bad ideas (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ETF, mellowwild

                if you don't let them express them.

                and you can't show that someone else is a bigot if you are doing the same thing to them that they would do to you.

                and if you aren't willing to or are afraid to listen to ideas you disagree with, are you really any better than them anyways?  what's the problem, are your ideas so weak that you think they can't stand up to a comparison?

                and after all, free speech is free speech.  if you start silencing one person, you open the door for silencing all people.

                •  I'm sure you're just yanking my chain , (0+ / 0-)

                  but I'll play along anyways . . ..

                  You can't really be serious that long discredited nutty views that are currently in vogue with the far right religionists (and others) like

                  "torture is great, let's go for it . . ."

                  "let's bring back creationism into our public schools, yup, that'll fix what ails them . . ."

                  "let's destroy our economy simply to spite unions . . . ."

                  etc. etc.

                  really need to expressed, debated, debunked, etc. when our country is facing many serious and real issues that need to solved.

                  Shouldn't we be doing better things than going back to the 18th century - it's really quite a practical matter at its roots.

                  •  Put it on the table, where we can deal with it (0+ / 0-)

                    Iranian President Ahmadinejad was invited by Columbia University President Lee Bolinger to speak at the University in September 2007.  Of course, Bolinger was excoriated for considering to invite a man who, amongst other things, denied the Holocaust. Ahmadinejad gave his speech and in the question and answer session after the speech, Ahmadinejad gave concrete evidence to suggest that his ideas had no credibility when he announced "We don't have homosexuals like in your country. We don't have that in our country."  After making that statement, the audience laughed in his face. At the end of the day, the reactionary forces represented by Ahmadinejad didn't exactly gain any converts by having been given this forum to air his viewpoints, in fact, his views were put to the test when he was invited to speak to an audience that challenged his idiocy.

                    I know it's not a great example, as there isn't exactly a strong pro-Ahmadinejad following in the United States, nevertheless, this "dangerous" man was left swinging from his own rope.  My point is that when you don't allow wrong-headed and dangerous viewpoints an open forum they fester silently and secretly, where they have a better chance of gaining both adherents and legitimacy.  I say it's better to put everything on the table, where we can challenge erroneous and illegitimate ideas.  Just make sure that progressives, such as Lowery, are also represented so that we too can laugh in the face of idiots who insist that civil rights only exist for some and not all.

                    If Rick Warren dares to use this national event to spew his homophobic bullshit, maybe a sorely needed debate will ensue, a debate which I hope will exhibit the same bankruptcy of thought that Ahmadinejad exhibited when he spoke at Columbia.  It's not as if homophobia will just go away if we don't allow homophobes a national mouthpiece to air their views.

                    Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain

                    by Michi on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:57:47 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Not choosing someone to speak at (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  abrauer, mellowwild

                  the inaugural is hardly an attack on free speech.

                  It's not "silencing."
                  The inauguration is not "the marketplace of ideas."

                  If that were true, then all of us have been "silenced" because we're not able to speak there, yet Rick Warren is.

              •  Sorry to tell you, buy it's their country too. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mellowwild

                "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

                by Goldie Taylor on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:54:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  I sometimes wonder why a lot of folks even (6+ / 0-)

          voted for Obama, he was very upfront, we are going to have to work together, he is president of the whole country, unity. We have a very rough four years ahead of us, we are going to need to work together to have a chance of turning this country around. Don't sabotage him before he even takes office by starting to grind those old axes again. The inauguration needs to be inclusive, it is not the time to freeze out a significant part of the population. Not only is it their country too, but they have an equal stake in making this work.

          •  As the man himself noted (0+ / 0-)

            People project their own hopes and dreams upon Obama.  There's no way the man could possibly fulfill all the expectations heaped upon his shoulders, even if they weren't already laden with the multiple crises the country is enmeshed in.

            I prefer to step back and see how he handles, say, his first year in office before I start calling for his impeachment as a traitor to The Cause (whatever my particular Cause might be).

            Dude, your statistical average, which was already in the toilet, just took a plunge into the Earth's mantle. ~ iampunha

            by ETF on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:22:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I agree (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ETF, mellowwild

          and I think in this particular issue we are in the minority.  There will always be conflict and nobody agrees with everybody.  In order to get things done you have to step across the aisle and this however, should go both ways.  

          Thank you Phoenix Woman for bringing this to light and bring about balance.  Although as I read through these comments it really doesn't matter to most. So many are fixated on Warren and from what I can tell from their point of view rightly so.  

          I am excited for this historic inauguration - the Queen of Soul is singing.  Maybe this sounds Pollyana but I am looking for the good of this inauguration. Nothing will decrease my enthusiasm for this historic event.  I am so excited to see the Bushes and the Cheney's are moving out!!!  

          It will be exciting to see a building that was built by slaves and paid workers to have an African-American family moving into it for the first time.    

        •  I simply don't understand (0+ / 0-)

          what putting an overt homophobic and anti-choice pastor on the platform at inauguration is doing to improve communications across the political spectrum.  What message does it send to Obama supporters? To gays?  To pro-choice women?  To right wing fundamentalist Christians who oppose both abortion and gay rights? To Sarah Palin supporters? Every group will take a different "message" from it. I don't think it does a THING to improve communications between "us and them." Rick Warren is NEVER going to support equal rights and women's rights, or laws that enable them.

          When it comes time for Obama to nominate a Supreme Court justice, will he also use that nomination to show how "open minded" and "inclusive" he is?  Will he compromise his stated principles even THERE just to be known as "inclusive?"  Have we put another Clintonian triangulator in office?

          Remember how Karl Rove used to say "Elections have consequences?" Well, apparently not so much when a liberal Democrat wins.

        •  Mmm...let's see... (0+ / 0-)

          How do I "get along' with someone who's committed to the destruction of my chose way of life (whether gay, transgendered or straight)?

          How do I "get along" with someone who's committed to dropping bombs on hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children to satisfy their lust for power and/or money?

          How do I "get along" with some who's committed to torturing people to get information?

          How do I "get along' with someone who's eavesdropping on and recording every single one of my conversations?

          How do I "get along" with _________[insert your response here]

          Elections are supposed to have consequences, and in this case we thought we were going to get justice, or at least change.  Increasingly, it's looking like the same-'ole, same-'ole.  And our country cannot afford 4 more years of that.

          Send your old shoes to the new George W. Bush library.

          by maxschell on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 11:36:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Fair'n'Balanced, hmmm? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattman, ZhenRen, Vladislaw

        Now where have I heard that before? Oh, yah - Faux News!

        I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

        by The Werewolf Prophet on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:33:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Exactly. (10+ / 0-)

        We get one progressive pastor and one conservative one.  And Warren is the least reprehensible of the well known conservative pastors.  Obama's not necessarily endorsing the views of either one, he's reaching out to both sides that he's going to have to govern.  It'll make it easier to pass his national agenda if he has the good will (or at least neutral will) of lots of different constituencies (and yes, conservative evangelicals are one of his constituencies now ("I will be your President too.")).  I don't like it or dislike it.  It is what it is.

      •  if he only appointed a gay in his cabinet (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vernonbc
      •  Balance it out? (3+ / 0-)

        Balance it out means that you get 2 Christians on stage? I forgot, Barack Obama was a constitutional lawyer correct?  I guess this means he thinks the US is a christian nation.

        You want to know what real balance would be? Real balance would be for him to have  Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist preachers there. The more things change the more they stay the same.

        •  there is NO such thing as a (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Timbuk3

          constitutional lawyer who thinks that the Founding Fathers intended to create America as a Christian nation. The Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams and approved unanimously by the US Senate (a body full of Founding Fathers by definition since that was 1798) says explicitly that America is NOT a Christian nation.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:18:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  There usually is a prayer service at which many (0+ / 0-)

          faiths are represented.  I see that Obama and Biden are attending a prayer event the day after the inauguration, which would seem to be put some space and light between the Constitutionally mandated event and the other.

      •  balance it out? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timbuk3, davidkc, fiddler crabby

        as in "fair and balanced"... somebody forgot that "truth requires no balance".

        Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

        by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 03:43:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama will do better if he does (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ETF, mellowwild

        not alienate large or key segments of the population.  After all, a sizable number of people did not vote for him and he still doesn't have a filibuster proof Congress.

        We need cooperation and not division to dig ourselves out of the hole we are in, and Obama is smart enough to know that it will take all of us to do it.  

      •  pro-gay and anti-gay is balance? (0+ / 0-)

        Wow, I can't wait for the next 8 years, when Obama feels obligated to included some homophobes and gay-bashing rhetoric in all of his efforts to ensure proper "balance."

      •  Even better than balancing it out, (0+ / 0-)

        He's ending it on a high note.

      •  And he's much more relevant to history... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lirtydies, mellowwild

        Than Rick Warren will ever be. He was instrumental in America overcoming what had been an on-going sore since our founding. He stood beside Dr. King in the worst of times--and persevered. He is a living symbol of how--and why--Barrack Obama is where he is today.

        When it comes to the offering of prayers, remember: it's not how you start, it's how you finish.

        "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."--Miguel De Santa Anna

        by GainesT1958 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:55:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes and no (0+ / 0-)

        Almost everyone is from California.  The San Francisco's children's choir is going to sing, DiFi speaking etc.

        GOP = Godless opposition party We Hassle to make America a Vassal (state)

        by Shhs on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:02:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  A veritable pastoral "team of rivals" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mellowwild

        ...and you know, since Rev. Lowery is giving the benediction at the conclusion of the Inauguration, you might say that the progressive has "the last word."

      •  Yeah, that's balance all right. (0+ / 0-)

        One guy full of hate, and one guy full of love.

        But I still don't like it.

        Hope you enjoyed it, Sarah, 'cause we just kicked your silly winking folksy lipsticked ass back to Alaska. Now shut the fuck up and stay there. Also.

        by Kaili Joy Gray on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:15:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you for this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies, mellowwild

      Obama: "Cynicism is a sorry kind of wisdom."

      by BrighidG on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 01:06:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I lived in Atlanta for a long time. (5+ / 0-)

      Joe Lowery is something of a legend there, for the best possible reasons.

      I'm glad he's a part of the inaugural, especially this one.

      There's no Biblical reason Mr. Obama couldn't one day be revealed as the anti-Christ. -- From a post at RaptureReady.com

      by Kimball Cross on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 01:47:14 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •   Rev. Joseph Lowery Addresses Young Democrats (4+ / 0-)

      "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition" Bernice Johnson Reagon

      by Denise Oliver Velez on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:35:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Of all the diaries that (rightly) scold folks for (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bwintx, bfbenn, fernan47, ETF, mellowwild

      whining about Rick Warren, this one is by far the most effective.
      There's been so much noise over Warren, this is the first I'd heard of another preacher.
      The presence of both Warren AND Lowery casts the situation in an entirely different light.
      It's about INCLUSION. It's about erasing the red state/blue state polarity. It's Obama doing what he said he'd do, which is presumably why we elected him.
      Lowery's words say it best:

      if you are one who says, "I believe in human rights for all people, except for..." then you really don’t believe in human rights or equality.

      Likewise, if you believe YOUR voice should be heard and another's should be silenced, then you didn't get the point of Obama's candidacy.

      'I can't understand why people are afraid of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.' - John Cage

      by jedley on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:43:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the point isn't that other voices shouldn't be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jedley

        heard, the point is that not all voices deserve a place on the inauguration stage.  As much as I despise the KKK, I believe in freedom of speech even for them.  But should they be represented on the inauguration stage for an American president?  I don't think so.  I think that's the point people are trying to make here.  This isn't about silencing opposing viewpoints, but rather about which voices should be represented on the Presidential inauguration stage.

        That said, honestly, while I don't like Warren's inclusion in this, I am not as bothered by it as others here seem to be.  Warren has not devoted his life to spreading hatred.  Yes he's a social conservative who's anti-choice and anti-marriage equality, but he has focused his church on issues like poverty and AIDS and charity, rather than spending most of his time on spreading hatred.  I don't think Obama is bringing the two pastors together on the purpose of inclusion.  Rick Warren is specifically his choice because he wants the young evangelicals to focus on issues of service rather than issues of social narrowness.  He wants to activate their progressive side through that service to community (which, if one thinks about it, also pushes them towards becoming Democratic voters).  If I am right, it's a good strategic move on Obama's part.  It doesn't erase the hurt on our side, but Obama has a different purpose here, I think, than most people on Kos are assuming.

        •  You're good at this! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deaniac83

          Your comment embodies the very spirit you're defending, in that you didn't squash me or even refute me - instead you showed me how the argument is bigger than what I'd thought.
          Cheers.

          'I can't understand why people are afraid of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.' - John Cage

          by jedley on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:26:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  This is the REAL story of the battle of the (5+ / 0-)

      ministers. Lowery's words will be the last ones we hear, not Warren.

    •  Wish that I had 1000 tips for this dairist (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fernan47, mellowwild

      Thank you for this!

      To all my ancestors who have moved from "sense to soul", a mountain of gold could not repay you.

      by rubthorn on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:34:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you! For those who harp on history: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies

      Lowery is a sign of how 1) evangelicals are not, and never have, all been anti-gay, if you count black people and 2) black people aren't necessarily homophobic. Yes, Obama is reaching out to homophobes with the Warren pick. But he's also reaching out to pro-gay, pro-human rights, anti-poverty radicals like Lowery, a dyed-in-the-wool progressive in whose path we are all following today. I always prefer the benediction, myself.

      And-- also, i think he's not quoting Hamlet, in the block quote. IIRC, it's Taming of the Shrew.

      President-elect Barack Obama.

      by noabsolutes on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:31:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is wonderful news (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies, mellowwild

      and a nice history lesson those too young to know Rev. Lowrey's accomplishments first hand.

      Thanks.

      Educate yourself. Think for yourself. Be yourself. Do for others.

      by DHinIA on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:54:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  and the beauty of it is (0+ / 0-)

      when you stop judging others all that other shit just goes away.

      ...where will it tickle you?

      by GANJA on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:02:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  He sounds awesome. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mellowwild

      Thanks for the info.

  •  I Really Don't Think It's Been Lost (21+ / 0-)

    I think most people know about it, and I think it's a tremendous choice.  But I don't think it wipes out the taint of having Warren be the other person.  

    "Dignified people, without a whimsical streak, almost never offer fresh insights, in economics or anywhere else." Paul Krugman

    by Dana Houle on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 09:55:50 PM PST

    •  No but it is (13+ / 0-)

      about the balance that the President-Elect has been pushing for. That's why I recommend this. (That and the fact that there are like two or three anti-Warren posts on the rec list at the moment...)

      To have faith in the power of a human being is no crime. The crime is to have no faith in your fellow human being.

      by RElland on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 09:57:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This balance will kill him. (13+ / 0-)

        You don't drink strychnine and then balance it out with a nice glass of V8.  

        Warren is not the intellectual, spiritual or humanitarian equal of this great man Lowery.  You don't balance someone with such fine sensibilities by also having a hate-mongering-with-a-smile man like Warren.

        That's false equivalence in the highest order.  In the end, it isn't balance either: it's just an aggrandizement of a political cancer, and an insult to a fine man.

        may you live in interesting times

        by electricgrendel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:31:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  devil's advocate - (0+ / 0-)

          Perhaps that means more people will see the difference between the two pastors? And that it will become obvious to the Christians which one is preaching the "true" "gospel?"

          +sigh+ I don't know, trying to parse this one is pretty hard. :(

        •  Really? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wader, lauramp, Goldie Taylor

          You don't see the symbolism of having Warren speak beyond his homophobia. You think that's the only symbol contained in the invocation?

          Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

          by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:53:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is no Rick Warren without homophobia. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mattman, DaleA, fishhead, alizard

            That's like a zebra without stripes, or a giraffe with a short neck.

            I mean- c'mon.  Look at this Prop 8 video. "I have gay friends." "My church and I have done so much for people with AIDS!"  Fuck you, Rick Warren.  If you think your "friends" should live as second class citizens, then I hope I'm never one of your enemies.  And I absolutely hate when people equate AIDS activism with the gay community.  Yes- it greatly affects my community, but AIDS is not a gay disease.  You don't get special points against your homobigot score because you happen to stand up against the scourge of humanity.

            As for any other symbolism that may be read into Warren's appearance, I will just say you can take trash and put it in the display case at Tiffany's, but that doesn't make it anymore significant than trash in a setting that is besmirched by its presence.

            may you live in interesting times

            by electricgrendel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:04:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you, Captain Obvious (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wader

              I'm just saying that there's other symbols to Rick Warren.

              Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

              by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:08:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Such as, oh illuminator of the inscrutable? (0+ / 0-)

                Please- tell me of these amazing symbols that reside so uniquely in Rick Warren that Obama was required to hold him up on this historic inauguration day.  What is it, specifically, about this megachurch riding hate-monger that makes him any different from Dobson?

                What does the symbolism of Rick Warren, standing on that stage, convey that any progressive opponent of Proposition 8 would fail to convey?  

                may you live in interesting times

                by electricgrendel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:15:43 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  He has a megachurch worth of followers, anyway (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Nulwee

                  Does he preach as much hate as Dobson?

                  In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                  by yet another liberal on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:22:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You can call me a son of a bitch to my face (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DaleA

                    before you shank me, or you can whisper sweet nothings in my ear before you shank me.  In the end, I won't care how you told me you were going to stab me.

                    I'll just know I'm bleeding.

                    So- does Rick Warren spew the fire and brimstone that Dobson does?  No.  He also only sees the difference between himself and Dobson as one of tone rather than substance.

                    So is that the symbolism?  It's okay to be a bigot, so long as you're a quiet bigot?

                    may you live in interesting times

                    by electricgrendel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:26:58 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't know anything about symbolism (0+ / 0-)

                      But I think Obama is whispering sweet nothings into Warren's followers ears.

                      In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

                      by yet another liberal on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:34:18 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If that is the case, then I am glad to know he is (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        yet another liberal

                        smarter and savvier than I, because from my vantage Warren's followers and all social conservatives are a voracious and unforgiving bloc of voters. More importantly, they know exactly what they want: repeals of women's rights, gay rights, minority rights, etc.

                        So- if he can reap that whirlwind before it brings down the tent, then more power to him.  I just wish he'd stop throwing me and mine under the bus to do it.

                        may you live in interesting times

                        by electricgrendel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:39:54 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  How about Rick Warren is a de facto (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SpyralPegacyon, lauramp, ETF

                  leader of the more polite, modernized religious right? Which is million of Americans, rightly or wrongly. Do you just tell them they're wrong and their beliefs are petty bullshit? I would. But I'm also not the fucking president.

                  That's also called symbolic. I wasn't being glib.

                  Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                  by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:48:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You know who those people are? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    alizard, lotlizard, LocalLinda

                    The ones who vote to strip gay marriage from state Constitutions, or pre-emptively ban it.  They're the ones who vote over and over and over again for state legislators that use building codes to force abortion clinics out of business.

                    They're the same divisive, nasty, intolerant and hateful people that made up the less polite, more honest religious right.  Just like Dobson would never deserve the right to give an invocation, neither does Warren.

                    And that's the danger of appealing to symbolism.  It is ultimately in the hands of the interpreter.  For instance- I could tell you that Warren's appearance is a symbol of the continuing power of a virulent and destructive form of Christian conservatism that has marshaled its troops to support every conservative cause that this current "administration" has pointed them toward.

                    That's a hell of a thing to bow to on your inauguration day: even if only symbolically.

                    may you live in interesting times

                    by electricgrendel on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:03:53 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  It's not a symbol (4+ / 0-)

                It's MY LIFE, damn it. Let other groups use their right to happiness and have a home as a symbol, leave my rights the fuck alone. Don't ask me for fucking money so you can be president, then put someone who hates my guts on the stage on your first day as president.

                A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:25:21 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Exactly where do you live? (5+ / 0-)

                  That you think most of the religious section of this country doesn't connect with this?

                  And as for who doesn't "hate" you, how about a prelate from the Catholic Church? The Mormon Church? The Southern Baptists? And then... the evangelicals.? Almost all the major bodies are deeply homophobic. You have some division in the significantly less significant Episcopalians, then the Quakers, Unitarians, et cetera. But most of the religious section of this country is homophobic.

                  I'm not saying Warren's insn't significant, vocal homophobia, but you're talking in absolutes, not shades.

                  Wouldn't you be saying the same thing about the pope?

                  Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                  by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:43:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Hey (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    electricgrendel

                    100 years ago most felt blacks and women were second class citizens. That majority was wrong. The people with the right view were in the minority. Does that mean you should embrace what is wrong because "most" people feel that way? And is it really worth embracing such hatred when it means 10 people at an inaugural celebration? Is it that important to make a statement about hate because MOST people feel that way.

                    It's possible a number of white racists in the country would like to see Obama dead. We don't need to embrace that kind of hate either, even though "many" may feel that way.

                    A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                    by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:48:07 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not "embracing" the hate. (12+ / 0-)

                      You have a very dehumanizing, hostile way of seeing your enemies, which is incidentally the same way they see you. Being conciliatory to a person is Obama's style, rightly or wrongly, but it's nonetheless not the same thing as saying I agree. Legitimization is not the same thing as concurrence. It doesn't take any rocket scientist or PhD to figure that out.

                      You also seem to think that from the 1910s through the early 60s that civil rights activists just avoided bigots because they were right and the others were ignorant and hateful.

                      Not the case.

                      Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                      by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:51:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Damn right I will be hostile (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        electricgrendel

                        to people who hate me and want to take my rights away. I have never tried to take Warren's right to marry or make a home away. Unfortunately, the converse is true. So I'm supposed to sit there like a nice poodle, in the hope the people will someday give me a few crumbs of rights? Please, please, sir, hate me just a little less..

                        A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                        by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:56:42 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well that's a losing battle (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Phoenix Woman

                          since most of America seems to be dumb as sheep about the obvious war that millions upon millions of evangelicals and conservative Christians are waging against you. Either way, it's a numbers war, and gays and lesbians have a very low reproduction rate.

                          Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                          by Nulwee on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:00:07 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  So why aggrevate the situation (0+ / 0-)

                            Why give credence to someone who is a proponent of Prop 8,why let people think he is this great guy, so he has MORE credibility next time he preaches his hate?

                            It's not the right I'm disappointed in, it's Obama..he had a full choice of the 12 people at the inauguration celebration..yet he could not find more positive role models..And I realize the rest of them are good. But there is no real reason to put a hater like that on stage, one of 12, when the fundies will not embrace him or his policies ANYWAY.

                            A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                            by gladkov on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:07:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Unless you don't see yourself as set against (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Phoenix Woman, lauramp, a night owl

                            people with whom you disagree. There's millions of people out there with vile, bigoted beliefs. Working with them isn't easy, but you don't just take all the poker chips, run away, and expect that's going to work.

                            Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                            by Nulwee on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:13:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  These aren't people with whom (0+ / 0-)

                            there's a "disagreement."

                            These are people who are actively hurting us, who are ratcheting up the hostility against us and turning it in to legislation.

                            And here's the kicker: We're not asking for them to change their lives in the least, in order for us to be treated equally.

                            Here's what Tennessee's looking at this legislative session:
                            Even though we have an anti-marriage amendment already, bills will be introduced to make even civil unions and domestic partnerships illegal. This could mean that private companies will no longer be able to provide insurance coverage or other benefits for domestic partners.

                            Anti-gay adoption bills will be introduced.

                            Odds are, they will pass.

                            The Republicans took over the legislature for the first time since Reconstruction, and they have big plans for us.

                            They've already promised this to their constitutents.

                            This isn't "disagreement," this is active harm that will have a terrible effect on us for a very long time.

                            The stakes are very high -- we don't all live in states where marriage is the biggest issue.

                            If protections don't happen at the federal level, we're looking at our lives getting dramatically worse.

                            And that's why Rick Warren is an issue, and why this "let's listen to everyone" stuff at the national level is so distressing.

                    •  Way to not answer the quesiton, btw. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Phoenix Woman, bwintx, lauramp

                      Now that Rick Warren's been made out as some singular creature of the universe, tell me where the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists, the rest of the evangelicals and the Mormons aren't hostile, divisive and nasty towards gays?

                      Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                      by Nulwee on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:52:58 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  If Obama had some Mormon on the stage (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lotlizard

                        who was behind prop 8, I'd feel the same way. We are not talking about national policy here. We are talking about picking 10-12 people for a celebration. You are telling me he can't pick 10-12, even with some conservatives, who don't actively preach hatred?

                        Of course the Catholic Church, Baptists, etc. suck in their bigotry to gay people. That is not the issue, it is not a national referendum. It is about a president who ran on change choosing someone who is known for his hatred to be among those 12. If it were a Catholic priest known for hating gays, I'd say the same thing. Just as people would say the same thing if there were one clansman there. People wouldn't say: Well, Aryan Nation is just as bad, as is group XYZ... they'd say having a clansman as an invited guest sucks.

                        A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

                        by gladkov on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:00:36 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Comparing Warren to a klansman (4+ / 0-)

                          is not exactly wise.

                          Again, you're not seeing that most Americans, and certainly not his flock, don't associate him with anti-gay activism. The vast bulk of his efforts go towards mainstream evangelical work. He is not Fred Phelps, even if he is a heterosexist.

                          Does Harry Reid have a "plan" or is he just in some permanent live-in-the-moment state gone frighteningly wrong?

                          by Nulwee on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:02:45 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Not only that- but he chose an evangelical (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          gladkov, alizard, bigchin, loper2008

                          preacher that heads a megachurch IN CALIFORNIA.  The state that was most recently the site of a stinging reminder to GLBT people that the majority of people do not think we are an equal citizen.

                          Talk about your symbolism.

                          may you live in interesting times

                          by electricgrendel on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:07:42 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  As an Episcopalian (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ETF

                    I must sadly report that even in the most liberal of churches, there are still a huge number who believe homosexual behavior is unacceptable.  And I'm not just talking about those who are actually leaving the church over the issue - those who are staying are deeply divided too.  There is a very long road to travel before people give up the beliefs they were raised with.

                    It is difficult to wait for something that should be a right - but look at how long it took for racial attitudes to change in this country.  And we aren't done there, either.

                    I'm not saying you should wait to assert your rights.  I'm just saying please don't despair because you haven't won the rights yet, much less the hearts and minds of the entire population.  The day will come.

                    My parents-in-law, who were told a year ago that their daughter (my sister-in-law) was gay, cannot accept it - as much as they love their daughter.   They are 80.  But my 21 year old daughter was completely surprised that her aunt was fearful of telling her family - the 21 year old couldn't even understand why anyone would care.  The day will come when no one will care.... Please keep up your fight and try (as hard as it must be) not to be bitter against those whose hearts and minds were formed a long, long time ago.

            •  That's what MOMA's for. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaleA, electricgrendel

              As for any other symbolism that may be read into Warren's appearance, I will just say you can take trash and put it in the display case at Tiffany's, but that doesn't make it anymore significant than trash in a setting that is besmirched by its presence.

              A Philistine joke, in honor of a pastor who would probably be happily praising Dagon if they hated gays.  And I don't mean Rev. Lowry.

              Dems in 2008: An embarassment of riches. Repubs in 2008: Embarassments.

              by Yamaneko2 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:15:39 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Have you thought maybe (4+ / 0-)

            It's not symbolism, it's my fucking life and my right to happiness? I don't care what symbol or point is being made, the "blessing" is being delivered by someone who hates me and doesn't want the blessing or happiness or a solid home extended to me..that's a lovely symbol..

            A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

            by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:23:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  That balance only kills you (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bwintx, lauramp, ETF

          if you commit to accepting the most extreme and opposing views of in each of your hands.  Which would be incredibly stupid.

          More likely, Obama's Administration would work with people like Warren to advanced common goals that are within our interests, even while minimizing the capabilities of divisive tools that Warren and is peers use . . . through actions with better-minded partners on those issues.

          And, indeed, Obama has often spoken about working on the things which even our enemies can agree on - not as a limiting factor, but in a manner that at least includes even the more loathsome folks in a few positive efforts, once in awhile.

          That doesn't mean we implicitly trust everything we interpret from Obama's moves, but at least let's make our feedback to his transition team and Administration constructive when these issues arise.

          We're in need of retraining to some extent, too.  Not just the far-right extremists.  We've been fighting a sad, losing war for years - now that we have a light on in the room, it wouldn't make sense to snuff it out because we suddenly want the walls to fall down immediately.  Obama's tenure may be a necessary transition to more progressive policies, as it is.

          "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

          by wader on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:08:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  talk to Warren, fine (3+ / 0-)

            Meet with him, put him on a freaking blue-ribbon panel on AIDS. That's not what this is. This is an endorsement. It's Warren given a microphone to speak to millions of people, Warren standing on the stage next to Obama with more TV cameras than have ever been pointed at anything pointed at them, Warren shaking Obama's hand.

            Warren isn't just someone who has a different viewpoint or different principles than progressives. He is an unprincipled liar who claimed that if Proposition 8 weren't passed ministers would be jailed for hate speech. He equated gay marriage with incest and pedophilia. If he compared your marriage - your personal marriage, to your spouse - to pedophilia, and equated you personally with a pedophile, would you feel all right about giving him this honor? Would you see it as building bridges or would it seem more like pinning a medal on a lying and malicious jackass?

            koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

            by m3 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:40:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ANY meeting with this person (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ETF

              will elicit this same level of reaction, whether it's for growing political boundaries by Obama/DNC as a first step in reaching out to - and, eventually helping to reeducate and culturally recondition - the kinds of people who follow Warren, or whether it's to place Warren into a setup where he can be taken down in a very public manner due to his own actions in a well-reported manner, ala Rev. Wright in some ways.

              Of course this is an endorsement - of Warren's loyal membership (which includes substantial military numbers) through his presence, not of his more hateful screeds or beliefs.  As has been mentioned often enough, Warren's stature in the mainstream doesn't push his hate but more his being an evangelical figurehead.  His hateful shite reaches followers, rather than people who actually think a bit for themselves - we're not creating converts to hate by his presence.  He's already well-recognized.  But, that's why he's going to be there.

              IMHO, this is the modern-day equivalent of inviting Billy Graham as a reach-out to those highly devoted and essentially programmed followers as an investment in future policy support.  Painful as it is to accept, I see this as purely a political play to help get a demographic into conversations to which they have not been rationale for over 40 years.  And, it's completely in line with Obama's campaigning pledges to reach out.  I don't know how else you do that without providing visibility for these kinds of leaders, because you will not get significant numbers of evangelical followers without first converting or compromising their leaders, IMHO.

              Otherwise, Obama could continue to ignore those demographics and let the Republicans continue to keep them and their religious leadership partners as an always-assumed, highly motivated and loud voter base without ever wedging into their minds.  Placing Warren into an Obama context compromises Warren, not Obama, IMHO.  One person's presence in the inauguration does not invalidate Obama/Biden's stated positions in support of equal rights and beyond.

              Sure, it's a bitter symbolic pill - I'd never dispute that.  But, it doesn't suddenly mean that Obama will soon be courting a policy direction any different than this.

              "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

              by wader on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:06:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Preach it (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA, electricgrendel

          Nothing balances out having a hater on stage. Just like you can have Jessie Jackson speak all he wants, but that won't remove the taint of some KKK member at the start of the program.

          A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

          by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:20:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  and an insult (0+ / 0-)

          to anyone who can sense the manipulation

        •  Obama may learn the hard way (0+ / 0-)

          Hopefully as he gets more experience, he'll be less inclined to use the trial and error method and learn good judgement and wisdom.

    •  Actually, I didn't know about it... (27+ / 0-)

      ...until a couple hours ago.

      Regardless of what one thinks of Rick Warren, I am not going to be like some people and say that Warren's speaking at the inaugural makes Obama a homophobic bigot.  

      Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

      by Phoenix Woman on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:07:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's a lot of overreaction. (5+ / 0-)

        I'm guilty of it, too. But like I've said in other comments, it hurts to see this happening, especially after the prop 8 fiasco. A lot of us are angry about it and letting off steam.

        Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong. -Oscar Wilde

        by unspeakable on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:09:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama can't make everyone happy (especially here) (23+ / 0-)

        But I trust his judgement more than alot of irrational people here who want to snipe at him for everything he does.....  

        But hey, they won't be happy until Jindal-Jeb Bush-Palin is in office in 2012, and then they'll say "We told you so!!!  He should have listened to us!!!"

        President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

        by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:11:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm glad you're here, (10+ / 0-)

          fromdabak. I knew something like this was going to happen again. If it's not one thing, it's something else. I hate seeing the community divided like this. :(

          In the unlikely story of America there's never been anything false about hope. -Obama

          by Luthien Tinuviel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:24:02 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not the community, it's a segment who is (12+ / 0-)

            never happy about any decision that Obama makes, or if something doesnt' go their way.....

            President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

            by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:31:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Are you sure? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaleA, lirtydies, fromdabak, Vladislaw

              It seems rather divided to me:
              One side-Obama sucks and is a homophobe
              The other side-Chill out, dudes, he's not even in office yet.
              Bleh!!

              In the unlikely story of America there's never been anything false about hope. -Obama

              by Luthien Tinuviel on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:38:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  How about we strip you of your ... (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jayden, condorcet, ZhenRen

              ... civil rights then make fun of you when YOU complain?

              I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

              by The Werewolf Prophet on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:39:37 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you were beaten today??? Someone deny you (7+ / 1-)

                an education????  Did someone make you sit on the back of the bus tonight????  Were you not allowed to drink out of a fountain????  Were the police called on you because you refused to leave a dining facility because of your minority status????  

                President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

                by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:45:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, let's see (8+ / 0-)

                  In NYC a man was beaten to death last week because his attackers THOUGHT he was gay.  Check.

                  Someone got fired today because their employer thought they were gay.  Check.

                  Someone else didn't get hired today because he seemed too "gay."  Check.

                  Someone was denied an apartment because the landlord didn't want to rent to a gay couple.  Check.

                  Do you really want to play "who's the biggest victim" or do you want to accept that ALL bigotry and ALL discrimination is wrong and weakens the American ideal?

                  You gotta give 'em hope. - Harvey Milk

                  by abrauer on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:56:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Every day (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  steve04

                  I live with the possibility of being fired from my job, because there are no federal/state protections against discrimination based on sexual orientation.

                  Every day, my partner and I pay extra taxes because we can't get married. In my state, even civil unions and domestic partnerships aren't recognized. btw, the new Republican majority will be codifying that this year.

                  Every day, my partner goes without insurance because I'm employed by a state where only marriage is recognized as a legitimate basis for extending benefits to one's partner.

                  Every day, I pay into a Social Security plan that will provide survivor benefits to all my married friends, but which I am barred from.

                  Every day, I hope one of us doesn't end up in the hospital, because the other might not be able to visit. And if my partner should die? No bereavement leave for me, because I live in a state where spouses, in-laws  and grandparents -- not the partner I've shared my life with for almost a decade -- are accorded the rank to allow for a couple of days off to grieve.

                  By the end of next year, it's entirely possible it will become illegal for me to adopt. It's already illegal for my partner and I to adopt together. See, only married people can do that, and we can't marry in my state.

            •  I just love it how you trivialize it (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DaleA, lotlizard, BentLiberal

              Someone who thinks gay people are criminals gives the "blessing" to the nation and we are all just "silly" for being upset about that..

              A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

              by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:29:20 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Seriously. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lauramp, mellowwild

          Some of these people are sounding like they'd rather have a Repub than a Dem with some political skills.

          Purity trolls.  

          Or really bored people.

          •  Outrage (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DaleA, HoundDog, condorcet

            Remember that? It's what every movement that ever was successful has in common. Where've you been?

            Walk a mile in "these people's" shoes before you judge too harshly. The LGBT community (of which I am not a member) should be respected. Was MLK a "purity troll'?

            •  In the shoes of people (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lauramp, ETF, mellowwild

              who think they have better political skills than Obama?  In the shoes of people who would rather have Palin as president because that would be more pure?  No thanks.  I don't want to go anywhere near them, or their shoes.  

              Sure, fight the Democratic president.  Because the Repub alternative is so much better.  Nader.  Gore.  Bush.  Bush.  Iraq.  Cheney.  

              When have I ever not respected the LGBT community, and how do you know I am not a member?  Because I care more about results than posturing?   Wouldn't that be more likely to make me a member of the community?

              •  I think people deserve some latitude (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lotlizard

                It won't hurt Obama that these opinions are expressed. Or do you perceive him to be that weak?

                The fact is, showing indifference or mild disrespect for gays would probably strengthen Obama's support among the centrist hoards.

                Speaking to power, even when that power is wielded by Obama, is often a good thing. It's not wise to let the wheels of dissent get too rusty. Our elected officials in the senate have taught us that in the last two years.

                As to political skills, and those who "think they have better skills than Obama," should they all concede ineptitude and surrender their minds now that Obama has appeared? Why do they even dare to continue to presume to think? Let Obama do the thinking for us all, and we can graze like cattle.

                My gawd, what blatant arrogance.

                •  You know, I was with you there (0+ / 0-)

                  for three paragraphs.  And I was thinking, ok, so they get to speak, but don't I?  Can I not dissent to the dissent?  Is your dissent more valuable than my dissent?  And then you answered me.   You think it is.  Because I am arrogant and you are not.  Yeah, right.  Later.

                  Heaven forbid we dare speak the words that some people are, actually, smarter and better educated, with better political skills, than others (Obama, that is).  No, that's right, we're all equal.  Right.  Next time I need an operation, I'd rather not have an "equal" doctor perform it.  I'd like one of those arrogant, well-educated ones please.

                  •  It's not arrogant that you express dissent (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lotlizard

                    It's arrogant that your expression of dissent is to ask the oppressed to pipe down because they presume to know better than Obama on an issue they plausibly would know more about than Obama. And to add further insult, you now feign outrage that your voice is being criticized.

                    Yes, you are arrogant. And that is my dissent.

                    •  Ok, because you, obviously, know so much (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      NDakotaDem

                      more than Obama.  

                      Are you oppressed?  Am I not?  And you know this because you are in the CIA?  So it's ok for you to tell me to shut up because you tap my phones?

                      Did I miss your name on my ballot?  

                      Or do you think I am arrogant because I am calling bullshit on your claim to be smarter and better-educated and harder-working and more motivated and more politically astute than our president-elect?  Because if you're not, why aren't you the president-elect?

                      •  You've wandered so far afield (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lotlizard

                        that I sincerely think even Obama would now disagree with you. If you presume Obama (and by implication, yourself and your estimation of your own judgment) to be so superior, why would Obama need a cabinet of rivals? Why does he seek counsel on anything? By your words, he is so certifiably superior to us all that we should rubber stamp his every act. Why have elections? Why let the common rubble (as you seem to view them) pass judgment on the man? Let's make Obama the monarch, and be done with it.

                        Sorry, but in my mind, I'm a pretty smart guy, and I will not let such sophistry persuade me to stop thinking critically about elected officials, including Obama. He's a talented fellow, but his voting record doesn't convince me to trust him blindly with the farm just yet.

                        If he's succeeded in accomplishing some meaningful changes in health care, education, and the economy four years from now, we can then assess if he's as smart as you think he is. But in the meantime, I'll not be joining the ranks of the sycophantic, swooning crowd.

                        •  OMG, are you kidding? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Goldie Taylor

                          You don't think Obama is smarter than you are?  You don't think he is better educated or more politically astute than you are?  Holy shite.    

                          This has nothing to do with me, so get over yourself with your personal attacks.

                          He seeks a cabinet of rivals because he wants a whole bunch of equally smart people challenging him, like smart people do.  Has he asked you to be part of it?  Geez, you are not all that.  Hate to burst your little bubble.

                          I'm sure you are a pretty smart guy in your mind.  Maybe you're also able to fly in your mind.  What would I know about that, other than that anyone who uses the word, "sophistry" is a bit of a wanker.

                          Now, unless you can get your act together and run for president in 2012, you might want to get on board and help the Dems try to accomplish things.  Or not.  You can form your own party, sort of like "CT for Lieberman."  Assuming you are old enough.

                          •  Newsflash (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            lotlizard

                            Sincerely speaking, and taking a very deep breath here, you really are missing a very important point in our little discussion. You apparently are unaccustomed to self observation and introspection. You don't seem to see yourself clearly.

                            You have apparently bought into the notion that you are qualified to judge the intelligence and abilities, and perhaps even the social worth, of everyone with whom you come in contact, regardless of whether you know anything about them. But you aren't. It's as simple as that. Haven't you learned that little gem?

                            This isn't really about Obama, but rather, it's clearly evident it is about your own attitude. Do you really not see that we all have the responsibility, as well as the right, to make our own minds up about the world? And every individual on the planet has his or her strengths and weaknesses, including Obama. It isn't healthy to put anyone that high on a pedestal. That you don't seem to recognize that is, well, a little disturbing as to what it may say about your personal growth and development, or your values.

                            Case closed, and good night. You can have the last word, if you like. I'm fleeing from this conversation, and I won't look back. This is dysfunctional.

        •  Spare me that bullshit (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA, HoundDog, fiddler crabby

          There is good reason for me to be unhappy when he puts someone who hates me and doesn't want be to be happy on stage on what is supposed to be a joyous day for the nation.
          This is not some policy, some symbol, some political strategy, it is the life and fundamental rights of people to be happy and have a home.

          A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

          by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:28:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I had no idea until you brought it up. (3+ / 0-)

        I do work, sometimes, but thanks.  Anyway, I'd agree with DH that these are hardly "off-setting penalties," but I'll take it anyway.

        We don't have time for short-term thinking.

        by Compound F on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:15:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  No, it doesn't make him a homophobic bigot (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        m3, DaleA, alizard, joanneleon, HoundDog, ggwoman55

        It does, however, make him a promoter of a homophobic bigot.

        "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

        by fishhead on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:07:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  But the other interpretation of this ... (0+ / 0-)

        is that he completely fails to understand that you CANNOT compromise with the Radical Right.

        You "extend a hand" to these people and what you'll pull back is a bloody stump.

        They will not compromise.

        They don't bargain in "good faith" even with each other, let alone with the liberals they would be more than happy to line up against walls and shoot.

        We are talking about a political subculture that has consistently and ruthlessly selected its membership for the authoritarian personality type.  Everyone else is either converted or extruded.

        And when you're dealing with authoritarians, you need to keep in mind that they only respect superior force.  And they'll only respect that when they've had the holy living bejesus beaten out of them.

        Why do you think these people resort to coercion by force and fear themselves, first and foremost?

        Spaniards can be impressed by the courtesy of the conqueror, French by his riches, Greeks by his respect for the arts, Jews by his moral integrity, Africans by his calm and authoritative bearing, but Germans are impressed by none of those things. They must be struck into the dust, struck down again as they rise. Struck again while they lie groaning, while their wounds still pain them; they will respect the hand that dealt them.

        --Germanicus Caesar

    •  I didn't know about this, and I spent (7+ / 0-)

      most of today at work and unable to follow what is going on.  I also spent a good deal of time today inwardly seething at the Warren choice.  I like the out with the old, in with the new meme.  Maybe I'll now be less angry.  Maybe.

      "Politics is not left, right or center ... It's about improving people's lives." -Paul Wellstone

      by maggiejean on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:08:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  We need to convince Obama to upgrade his position (0+ / 0-)

        to full equality for all Americans Now.  Then some of the symbollogy of reaching across the ailse in cooperation with opponents might make sense and work.

        But when he still has so far to go, and after appropriating 'the fierce urgency of now" as a campaing slogun, to reverse it's meaning appears more like the fierce hypocracy of moral complacency.

        As soon as Obama corrects his own short comings, he can try making such gestures.  He is not in a moral position to do this yet.

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:36:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't think the state should recognize marriage (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          goObama, alizard, vernonbc

          for anybody.  The state should only recognize civil unions, since the state is only interested in the civil aspects of the union (joint tax returns, inheritance, child custody, etc).  The state isn't interested in the so-called "spiritual" and/or "religious" aspects of the union, aspects that would fall under the term "marriage".  So recognizing unions as "marriages" isn't any of the state's business.

          Under my proposal, any couple, be it homosexual, heterosexual, or even non-sexual (like two friends) would go to the state to declare themselves to be in a civil union.  Then, if that couple wants the trappings of "marriage", they go to a non-government entity to get it.  For example, they can go to a church, a captain on a ship, or simply declare themselves to be married.

          That's the real solution since it treats everyone equally under the law.  Maybe that's what should be advocated rather than trying to get the general public to go for state-recognition of gay "marriage".

    •  Great choice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DaleA, VictorLaszlo

      but that doesn't give him a pass for having an anti-gay bigot up there with him.

      •  Obama is (4+ / 0-)

        not exactly a champion of civil rights either.  Our movement, like others, is going to have to be a bottom up thing.  We need to fight in the courts and the streets.  As for Obama, I don't like his choice either but I understand it.  It buys him points with "moderate" evangelicals and costs him nothing. One does not become the first black president of the US after being in the Senate for only 4 years by giving up freebies.

        •  Bingo, as Obama does not yet support full (0+ / 0-)

          equality for all Americans, but only the separate but equal "civil unions" only, he is in now moral position to be making such grand gestures on the behalf of those who are still fighting for such equality.

          It's more like a thumb in the eye and invites folks to notice his own hypocracy.  

          And double gall to expropriate 'the fierce urgency of now as a campain slogun, when he reverses it's meaning and thumbs his nose at the GLBT.

          Hey, he's not the first.  But he shouldn't be surprised if they return the favor.  With far more consequences for him.  

          He could still be a hero of the GLBT.  Or he can go down in history as a hypocrit.  The ball is in his court now.  And he choose to push this rigth in folks faces.  Not very bright on your first month.

          This is sort of discouraging for those of us who are still hoping he can succeed at a broad range of progressive advancesments.  

          This strategic blunder  and apparently tone deafness raises lots more questions about his real strategic capabilities for operating in a diverse complex political environment.  

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:41:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  doing THE MATH (0+ / 0-)

          If Obama manages to persuade the gay community that Democrats aren't worth actively supporting, we lose Congress in 2010 and the White House in 2012. 10% of the population is enough to swing practically any election.

          The odds of Obama getting enough Religious Right extremists (aka the GOP base) to offset this are too low to be worth considering... I consider the odds of a UFO landing on the White House lawn and something coming out of it saying "Take me to your leader" a lot better.

          Obama is not exactly a champion of civil rights either.

          Probably the first comment made today on any diary where Rick Warren is discussed that would make Obama blow up and melt down, and as far as I can see, you made it in passing, not as an attack on Obama's character.

          Since I am not Obama, it doesn't bother me especially, he got himself into a position where reasonable people can say this about him, and as far as I'm concerned, he can get himself out.

          But it shows just how political moves like the ones he's been making lately are fracturing his political coalition before he's even managed to take office.

          Maybe there is some awesome political strategy in the works that will make all this make sense to us. But I'll wait for evidence, since I don't do faith-based a whole lot. I'll merely comment that there's one hell of a big difference between campaigning and governing, and an extremist Religious Right leader (I'm talking about the content of his public beliefs, not his media-driven public image) starting an Inauguration ceremony is as inauspicious a start to an Obama Administration in terms of anything that is actually planned as I can come up with.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:49:59 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The problem is (0+ / 0-)

            10% of the population is enough to swing practically any election.

            Homosexuals are really only 10% of the population if you count bisexuals, and just speaking from experience they usually don't vote their sexually identity.  A lot of gays and lesbians don't.  Its a pretty safe bet for Obama, especially since he is still to the left of the right wingers, especially the remaining right wingers in office.

    •  I had absolutely no idea (0+ / 0-)

      I'd heard nothing but Warren-Warren-Warren until just now.

  •  quite a lovely juxtapostition, i think. (26+ / 0-)

    let us usher out the old views--the opening benediction--with what will be the new view--the closing prayer.

    i like it.

    •  That was my thought, too (17+ / 0-)

      Warren is the old view and Lowery's the new one.

      Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

      by Phoenix Woman on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:03:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Great imagery (5+ / 0-)

        as long as there is a ceremonial moment expelling "the old."

        In his race speech, Obama talked about some painful moments he had growing up when he heard his grandmother use the N-word and when she asked her husband to drive her to work because she was afraid she might run into some black people. His grandmothers words stung even years later..

        To have a guy like Warren do the invocation will sting in the same way. Millions of people will feel the pain of being marginalized as less human and less deserving of rights than others.  It is pretty insensitive and choosing a good guy as a closer doesn't make up for it.

        Obama said that this election is about us. Why choose a guy to give the invocation who has said some of us are not as worthy as others?  Was the election not about them too? There is a huge difference between being of a different political persuasion and being a homophobe.

        •  but how do you know what his remarks (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lauramp

          will be at the inauguration?
          this guy hasn't even taken office yet, and yes, he has already done some things that i've questioned.

          but 1) still a lot better than the alternative, and 2) let's at least give him a chance to make some changes over four/eight years.

          change doesn't happen overnight.  

          (i despise warren, too, and think his books are the cheesiest thing imaginable.  you could write a better book, i'm sure.)

          •  I could write a better book (0+ / 0-)

            But I probably couldn't make as much money off it as Rick Warren did. My Mom actually sent me one several years ago, because the marketing strategy was to get church's to buy boxes of them and then give them away.

            In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

            by yet another liberal on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:07:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I support Obama because I like his policies (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DaleA, mama jo

            and I think he will implement them.

            This isn't about policy. This is about an invocation, a blessing, to the new administration from someone who says that some Americans aren't decent human beings because they are gay. As others have said, think of it as having a guy who calls some Americans "niggers" get up and do an invocation to start of the next administration.  Would that be acceptable?

            I could tolerate a right wing conservative preacher, but not a blatant racist or homophobe.  If Obama wants a homophobe to do the invocation, it makes his speech on race a sham.

            •  yes. you're right, of course, in a perfect world (0+ / 0-)

              but we obviously don't live in a perfect world.     we can only hope that this guy who we've canvassed for, and given money to, has some plan.

              we can only hope that he's better than what we've had for the past eight years.

              we can only hope.  
              that's our option.
              our only option.
              that we can hope he's better than what we've had.
              no guarantees.  
              we can't expect guarantees.
              we can only hope that things will improve.

              •  not our only option (0+ / 0-)

                Our other option is to hope and write angry letters when he lets us down. I don't think we are doing our job as citizens if we sit around passively hoping that somebody else has a plan. It's a democracy, if he does something wrong or hurtful it is incumbent upon us to tell him so.

                koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

                by m3 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:49:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  He could change his backward position on civil (0+ / 0-)

            unions over night and I hope he does so before the inauguration.  Because now he has poked his finger in the eye of the GLBT so many times, they are almost required to take some sybollic actions like a rainbow armband display and a moment of silence for those who will die before making it to the promised land.

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:45:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  His own lack of support for full equality has (0+ / 0-)

          already been so painful for so many Chrisc.  Why can he not see this.  Why are more here not able to see this?

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:43:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Equality is an American Value (0+ / 0-)

            I expect to be disappointed as a pragmatic Obama compromises on some policies- maybe I won't get the exact health care plan I am dreaming about, or economic plan or education initiative, but there can be no compromising on the equality of our citizens.  

            We have a history in this country of always pushing towards that equality.
            Sadly, we have shed a lot of blood and many people have suffered in the process. You would think most people would "get it" by now and choose to be on the right side of history.

            I hope Obama will do something about Warren. He rejected Jeremiah Wright because he said "goddamn america" so I do not see how he can embrace Warren who says "goddam the gays".

    •  Think of it this way... (21+ / 0-)

      Warren's invocation will be uttered during the final, moribund moments of the Bush administration, while Lowery's will be the first prayers uttered during the nascent Obama administration.

      •  One last (I hope) official soapbox. (6+ / 0-)

        Besides, if Warren tries to pull anything religiously partisan, there's the whole ceremony's length for communal fuming before Lowery can show that 'wait, there are preachers who aren't like Warren etc.?'

        Beyond that, anything Warren says at the beginning will get forgotten by many in the events that follow, while Lowery's at the end without anything much beyond talking head analysis to follow.

        Incomplete list of McNames in profile. Personal favorites include McSogynist, McNopoly, and McThuselah, and McCambrian.

        by Cassandra Waites on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:44:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, no. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        m3, DaleA, HCKAD, condorcet

        I appreciate that you are trying to spin this in some positive way, because you don't want to believe that Obama would have any motive other than a noble one to choose a speaker like Warren to participate in such an important event as his inauguration.

        But basically, all of you with this idea of ushering out the old, bringing in the new, are just making shit up.  There's been no indication that this is Obama's intent.  In fact, it would be quite an insult to Warren, wouldn't it?  Do you think Obama would invite someone to to the invocation at his inauguration for the purpose of essentially humiliating him?

        This just isn't a realistic scenario.  You are engaging in blatant denial.  Face up to the fact that Warren was chosen as a celebrant at this inauguration, and choosing someone to do this is an honor not an insult.  Get real.

        "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

        by joanneleon on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:35:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  really???? (0+ / 0-)

      why not have david duke and eric rudolph there too?

      you know, to make a lovely juxtaposition.

      i think this whole argument about rick warren is a mountain out of a molehill, but comments like these are just insane.

  •  I knew he would have some to balance out warren (11+ / 0-)

    that seems to be what Obama wants to do.  He is not just the president for progressives and liberals.  He needs to bring ALL folks together.  

  •  Fierce urgency of now, meet the fierce hypocracy (10+ / 0-)

    of moral complacency.  

    Even more important than the symbollic nature of who gives the invocation, is Obama "civil unions" only stance.

    As an AA, he more than anyone should realize the bogus nature of a seperate but equal position.

    We need to encourage Obama, other Democratic leaders, and more folks here at Daily Kos to support full equality for all Americans.

    And to confront any more diary authors and comments, that derisively, sarcastically, and hurtfully make fun of those still struggling for equality.

    We would not have tolerated similar treatment of AA during the civil rigthts movement, or of woman fighting for the vote, or Jews, during the holocaust.

    Lots of folks did and still do make sarcastic and cruel jokes, but not on the world's leading "progressive" blogsite.

    Challenging Obama to continue to learn, acknowledge mistakes, correct them and move forward is the strongest form of support we can give.

    We do not need more of these knuckleheaded apologists continuing to assert Obama can do no wrong, to claim he is not responsible for any shortcoming of his administratin, and to attempt to stiffle and ridicule any criticism, or expression of concern or hurt.

     

    The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

    by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:06:20 PM PST

    •  The man hasn't set foot in the office yet, but (21+ / 0-)

      he's being blasted non-stop about his administration already...  

      Even you made a comment about the shortcomings in his administration....  Really what shortcomings?  What legislation has he helped passed through already do you have a problem with???  What hasn't he veto'd yet that you was ready to fight against or for????

      President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

      by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:15:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I like Obama's picks (6+ / 0-)

        including Hillary and Gates.  But he campaigned on civil unions.  It was and continues to be fair to criticize his stance.

        •  I was one of many who begged and pleaed with (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA, joanneleon

          my many friends in the GLBT communitied, to once again turn the other cheek and support the Democratic nominee so we could with the election.  A lot have grown tired of hearing this from me again after Dukakis, the Clintons, Gore and Kerry.

          But I promised them that once we were in power I would fight for full equality in the tradition of Rev King.

          And I apologized for my politically expedient hypocrocy.

          But the minute the election was one, this voluntary self censorship ended.

          And I consider this to be in the tradition of 100% support for Obama's long term success.

          Because beleive he will upgrade his position, help up win this battles and win the lifelong support of the GLBT communities and other progressives for the Democratic Party if he does so.

          And if he doesn't if will be one of a cluster of similar failures that seriously compromises his abiltity to be effective on other even more important issues.

          His positions on all issues he has spoken on, and all choices the Democratic Party can make,  are all fair game at every minute.  

          This idea of waiting for inaugeration day is bogus and has no logic to it as far as I can see.  Only on his ability to govern, which I haven't spoken to yet.  We may have to wait for more than one day on that one anyway.  But to attempt to censure all criticism is counter-productive, and not helpful at all.  

          The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

          by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:54:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Before he even got elected he betrayed his (9+ / 0-)

        original position on FISA.  Said stupid pandering things at AIPAC that he did retract.

        And he has never supported full equality for all Americans.  

        A position I supported so he could win this election.

        I hold Obama and every other American fully responsible for their publically articulated political positions every day fromdabak.

        I know of no tradition that we are not allowed in a democracy to criticize the public positions, press conferences, action, appointments, and plans until after inauguration day?  That's preposterous.

        And this isn't a battle I've chosen.  I've been encouraging folks to wait on these issue until after the inauguration.

        I have tremendous respect for Obama brilliance, leadership, and compassion.

        Some of his knuckleheaded strident apologists here, however, seem so hell bend on aggravating the heck out of some progressives and the GLBT, that if Obama is paying any attention he should tell them to stand down.

        These derisive and mocking put down, and exhortation for everyone to STFU, as if any expressed concern is treasson, is getting old pretty darn quickly.

        Are these folks political tone deaf at such a sensitive time, to be shaking a stick at a bee hive?

        Someone's not paying attention somewhere, with this Rick Warren thing.

        I used the term administration loosely to mean the whole team fromdabak.  You can't seriously wont to nit-pick word choice at a time like this can you?

        The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

        by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:44:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In my opinion I think the Barack daily concern (6+ / 0-)

          item is getting old as well.....  Everything can't be the number one item....  During the summer it was FISA, then it was Hillary being appointed to Sec of State, then it was keeping Gates as SecDef, now it's Rick Warren.....  Tomorrow it's going to be something else....

          President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

          by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:52:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've see from you UID you've only been with a (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DaleA

            short time.  Get used to it fromdabak.  It's partially, a consequence of a large and diverse community.  

            If ten different folks have ten differnt number one items you're going to eventually here all ten of them.

            We do not speak with one voice here.

            If your primary experience has been the last year, you've seen a non-representative period as almost all of us have been so eager to help Obama win, with self-censured the vast majority of all complaints.

            But from here on on out, expect to see, a broad range of opinions on how Obama and all other Democrats can improve themselves on numerous self-proclaimed standards of behavior.

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:00:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, I've only been here for 2 years (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HoundDog, HGM MA, vernonbc

              (Dec 06).....

              President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

              by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:03:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, welcome aboard. The last year has been (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DaleA, fromdabak

                unusually united, but even from two years ago, you should be used to the wild and wooly constant churning of passionate diversity here fromdabak.

                Take a look in some of the archive from four or five years ago.  It will cheer you up.

                This is all normal and healthy.

                Obama is smart and wise enough, he has nothing to fear from diverse contructive opinions.

                But I doubt he reads any of this.  He is safely cacooned by a protective ring of advisors.

                But, we have such amazing potential here.  We should all do our best to help him succeed.

                And I believe some of his well intentioned advisors seem tone deaf to some of these GLBT and other minority progressive issues.

                He could be a hero here, quickly, at low cost, and in a way that significantly helps him succeed on other issues.

                The hurt the GLBT feels is not going away soon. It's just political reality.  

                The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

                by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:13:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well if the primary wars were united, I don't (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lirtydies, ETF, mellowwild

                  want to see a DKos civil war.....  I don't think we are tone deaf to anyone's particular issues, but realize that it seems like everyday it's another "Obama is the devil, and this is why!!!!" then everyone jumps in it feet first....  Plus he hasn't even got into office yet, so I hate to see how it's going to be when he has to actually make a unpopular but needed choice...

                  President-Elect Obama, the first American President to own a Wave-Brush.

                  by fromdabak on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:18:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  What a coincidence! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mellowwild

              It's partially, a consequence of a large and diverse community.

              That's the same reason why people like Rick Warren show up at national events.  

              Hynes, Daley, Madigan, Cullerton, Geokaris, Fawell, Lipinski, Jones, Jackson, Stroger...Did I forget any families?

              by Inland on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:19:32 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I agree on principle .... but (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HoundDog, fromdabak

          "Before he even got elected he betrayed his original position on FISA."

          what president, the head of the excutive branch, would give that power up once in office?

          As soon as he said it I thought "oh oh, you'll be changing your mind about that one"

          •  But he didn't even wait until in office Vladislaw (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            My mom is my hero, Vladislaw

            Please don't get me wrong.  I strongly support Obama, and still have high hopes for many wonderful contribution he will make.

            Which is why I intend to give him all the help I can.

            The world is so vastly more complicated than anyone human being can understand and be right on all the time.

            We have to do the best that is possible within the time frame and then hope we can learn faster than the external environmment and any competitors we have.

            Biology teaches this.

            I think constructive feedback is helpful.

            I totallly reject this obsoletly top-down-hierarchical "father knows best" model the GOP uses and a surprising number of progressives suddenly appear covetous of, despite the fact we see it lead to spectacular blunders so frequently.

            :-)

            BTW love your series on space.  It's outa this world.

            Keep up the good work.

            And please don't misunderstand my constructive engagement.  

            I will be getting more agressive because I believe so passionately we have many great challenges we need to succeed on.

            For the benefit of the whole world.

            The means is the ends in the process of becoming. - Mahatma Gandhi

            by HoundDog on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:08:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I got hitched to the same person twice, (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MJB, fromdabak, pamelabrown

      Once by a judge in the courthouse where they tried John Brown.
      That should be available for all people.
      Nothing else required.

      And then later in our Church, we got blessed.
      This is how the French do it.
      Seems logical to me.

      The state does not need to give ministers of any church legal powers.
      But then what do I know.
      I believe in magic.

      Pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living~~Mother Jones

      by CA Berkeley WV on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:33:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  if there were one law I could change (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MJB, HCKAD, vernonbc, CA Berkeley WV

        I would stop letting ministers perform state marriages and make everybody go to the courthouse for the certificate. So that everybody would understand that they are, have been, must be, always will be separate institutions.

        Obviously you already understand this. But so very many people don't.

        koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

        by m3 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:55:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Seems to be a lovely man (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, irishwitch, thebluecrayon

    But really, it's not a matter of starting with a buckethead and ending with a great man in some symbolic journey.  It's about starting with some acceptable moderate clergy or.. how about starting with a non denominational spiritual leader for a change?  Because the start is not the end of GWB it's the beginning of BHO.

    We're all one heartbeat away from Forever. kasandra.us

    by KS Rose on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:07:28 PM PST

  •  Thanks. (9+ / 0-)

    This only confirms my theories about the choice of Warren.

    I applaud this choice, BTW.

    "Money, pardon the expression, is like manure. It's not worth a thing unless it's spread around, encouraging young things to grow. " Dolly Levi

    by Glinda on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:08:21 PM PST

  •  This man sets the tone of tolerance (4+ / 0-)

    that in my opinion should exist throughout the entire inauguration.  Thank you for this thoughtful and informative diary.

    •  Except the tolerance is ruined (5+ / 0-)

      By the intolerance of the first speaker. I'm sorry, featuring someone who hates me and millions like me on such a joyful day for the nation is not acceptable. I don't care if it's political, it's reaching out, it's "bipartisan", it's giving a platform to hate.

      A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

      by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:38:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  IMo, this is (9+ / 0-)

    Fan-Freaking-Tastic, and it saddens me that it got lost in the Rick Warren sh*istorm. And intentional or not, the symbolism is there: out with the old views, in with the new.

    •  Yep (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DaleA

      It's also so nice to have a little old-fashioned hatred thrown in. Kinda like having a speaker who says "n***er" at a NAACP celebration, you know, just for "balance"
      A  better way to get out with the old is not to dignify such hatred with a response. And I don't care if "a lot of Americans" thought that way, as some are saying here. 100 years ago, most thought women and blacks were second class citizens. They were wrong and it wasn't acceptable.

      A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

      by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:36:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm black, female and bisexual. (11+ / 0-)

        And I don't think it's the same thing. If Barack had invited Fred Phelps, THAT would be a problem. The man is the living embodiment of All Things Wrong and Nutty. Rick Warren, though.... I've met lots of people like him, including my own mother. The best way for Barack to deal with them is to show them he's not their enemy, and that despite their differences, they have some things in common. Once you find some common ground, you can work on changing minds. Since I have faith in Barack's basic decency and desire to make things better, I'm guessing that that's at least part of what Rick Warren's presence is about.

        •  Then he can't count on my support (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA

          And millions of gay voters will look elsewhere as well. I don't care how he interprets Warren's presence. Someone who hates me is giving the "blessing", how wonderful. A "blessing" by a hater.

          A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

          by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:02:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sorry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DaleA

          but I cannot and will not share your tolerance of bigotry.

          "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

          by fishhead on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:11:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well said. (4+ / 0-)

          You don't change minds by showing people your back.

        •  talk to him, fine (0+ / 0-)

          Meet with Warren, put him on an advisory panel on AIDS. This specific action of asking him to give the invocation is an unrestricted endorsement. It's a huge honor given without any conditions attached. That is what I am upset about, not the fact that he's engaging with Warren at all.

          koee bolai raam raam koee khudhaae/koee saevai guseeaa koee alaahi/kaaran karan kareem/kirapaa dhhaar reheem

          by m3 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:58:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm white, male and straight (7+ / 0-)

          and I agree with you. Now, ain't that something.

          We need to stop caring only about things that affect us personally - we need to start caring about our community, our common humanity, our brothers and sisters of all faiths and none (I'm an atheist, too, which makes me in an even more hated and distrusted minority, one with even less representation in government than you).

          I have fought for GBLT rights since I was old enough to know the birds from the bees. My support for civil rights - for EVERYONE is not conditioned on reciprocity or anything else.

          AND, I dearly wish that those struggling under the yoke of theologically-based sexual discrimination would understand that we share common cause. No matter how religious you are, no matter how deep your faith, we fight the same fight. When a major network news anchor repeats, time after time, that "there are no atheists in foxholes", and us atheist veterans organize a protest in front of the network headquarters, it would be nice if one single fucking person who isn't themselves atheists would show up to support our call for respect and equality, too. I've marched with my gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters, as my white parents marched with their brothers and sisters of color to support their struggle to end segregation, and as my grandfather marched with his sisters for their rights as women.

          No one is there for us atheists, though, when the chips are down - even though the same religious bigotry that underlies our cultural shunning is responsible for your inability to marry the one you love. In fact, religious bigotry is responsible for fostering most of the culture of discrimination and exclusion that hurts all of us.

          No matter what our color, our gender, our sexual preference, our religious beliefs, or any other variable in the wonderful, endless variety of human beings, we all deserve respect, we are all equally worthy of love, and we all have the right to equality under the law.

          All of us.

          So, it does hurt when folks post outraged diaries about Warren that dismiss concerns about religious invocations in the first place.

          Why can so many of you understand the symbolic power of having a homophobic bigot like Warren on the podium, yet not understand the symbolic power of having an entire ceremony assuming that religious sanction is both necessary and appealing, implying that, without it, moral fiber is lacking, moral authority is diminished, and that cries of dismay about a religious invocation at the ultimate celebration of our secular Republic are somehow hateful and petty?

          Days like these remind me how much of an outsider I and my children and those who dare to think like me are in America, how we are (barely) tolerated rather than embraced as members of the American family. Most public figures can't even bring themselves to utter our name in anything but disdain or blame for the evils of the world.

          At a time when Obama is set to appoint an openly lesbian official to a high position in his government, the very thought of him appointing an openly atheist person to any government office is laughable. Why is that? And why is it not worthy of even a moment's consideration on this "progressive" blog?

          One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

          by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:03:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  {{{hugs}}} to you (3+ / 0-)

            Just because I think you've earned them. :) I've been seeing so much lately that made me feel hurt, sad or frustrated (why is it that presenting another point of view automatically means I'm indifferent to gay issues or, in some other way, a terrible person?), reading this thoughtful, heartfelt post finally gave me a GOOD reason to cry. Thank you so much for sharing.

            Despite also being a liberal Christian, I absolutely agree that atheist views should be respected, and I hadn't quite thought of things the way you've explained them here. If there have to be any religious figures involved in this at all, I think it would be better if they were Unitarian Universalists. That way, in a sense, everyone would be represented. But a better solution would probably be to forgo the religious stuff and have additional poetry readings or something.

            I love that you said this:

            We need to stop caring only about things that affect us personally - we need to start caring about our community, our common humanity, our brothers and sisters of all faiths and none

            Again, thank you.

            •  the militant atheist stereotype (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mistral Wind

              has gotten a lot of play, but it is a stereotype. True, there are militant atheists (just as there are militants of all stripes), but they represent a minority. They make a lot of noise, and they get a lot of press, because the media loves controversy and simplistic, Us vs. Them narratives. They also attract a lot of flame wars online.

              But, it is not entirely their fault. We live in a culture where merely expecting equal respect and dignity for atheists is considered radical and even unamerican - and that runs across the political spectrum. A culture where, merely questioning the tenets of faith are equated with hate speech, where intellectual inquiry of even the most innocent type is virtually taboo, certainly in the public square.

              Thomas Jefferson advised in 1782 in his Notes On Virgina that "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

              Ironically, Jefferson was vilified as a covert Atheist by opponents during his first, and each of his subsequent presidential campaign. His toleration of freethinkers would have automatically disqualified him from nomination, let alone victory, in an election campaign today.

              In fact, atheism and agnosticism were tolerated and even respected viewpoints as recently as 100 years ago, when J Robert Ingersoll was considered the greatest orator and one of the most well-known Americans in the world. (Don't bother trying to find any evidence of his heresy in the textbooks; like many atheists, agnostics and other freethinkers who contributed to the founding, growth and development of this nation, he has been all but expunged.)

              What happened? The first Red Scare, and then McCarthyism and the Cold War resulting in an equation between Atheism and the dreaded Communist Threat; school children were taught that atheists (and, falsely synonymously but no less ominously, Jews) were a fifth column, whose toleration would lead to the rise of Communism and the death of America.

              Today, atheists are the most hated, least trusted belief group in America - even right after 9/11, when there was a backlash against Muslims, atheists ranked lower in public opinion polls.

              It might surprise you to know that on atheist forums we speak about "coming out" to family, just as members of the LGBT community do, and that, in many parts of the country, particularly the Deep South, teenagers who come out as atheists are kicked out of their homes, disowned by parents, beaten by peers, shunned by former friends. Adults who dare to be openly atheist at work are regularly discriminated against, fired for false pretenses, denied promotions.

              There is even institutional, unconstitutional discrimination at the federal level - Eagle Scouts who apply for government employment are automatically started at a higher pay grade than anyone else - and, as you know, not only gays but atheists as well cannot be Eagle Scouts (or Boy Scouts at any level, for that matter).

              Bush's father, when he was a sitting vice president running for president, said publicly in response to a journalist's question that he didn't consider atheists to be citizens, much less patriots. A petition was circulated to every member of Congress asking them to condemn, or at least disassociate themselves from that remark. Guess how many responded? Not a single one - and GHW Bush went on to be elected president.

              Imagine a sitting vice president, even a Republican, stating to the press that Jews should not be considered Americans - or even that gays or lesbians are not patriots. No candidate of either major party would stand a chance, and a vice president would probably be forced to resign. Bush suffered no consequences.

              My youngest daughter, when she was in 3rd grade, was told by her teacher to stand up in front of her class and explain "why she didn't celebrate Christmas or Hanukkah" - and this was in liberal Massachusetts, in a well-to-do, "progressive" town.

              This is the America we grow up and live in. And yet, my children are following my example, as I followed that of my parents, and are active in promoting civil liberties and fighting for all groups that face discrimination and intolerance.

              Most atheists and other nontheistic Americans wish simply to be accepted as one shade on the rainbow of beliefs that Americans share, to be respected as citizens and members of society, to be, not just tolerated but celebrated as proof of our grand and uniquely American diversity. It would be nice to have some representation to go along with our taxation, but, for now, it would be enough to have cultural and political leaders treat us as other than anathema, and refuse to trade on phobia and fear of atheism in order to promote their careers.

              One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

              by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:26:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Apologies for verbosity (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mistral Wind

                stuff gets dammed up inside and occasionally pours out, somewhat excessively ;-)

                I did appreciate your sentiments and share your hope that we can all come together and live as one, regardless of our beliefs. What we hold in common is infinitely more significant than what we hold apart.

                One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

                by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:43:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

  •  Well personally (5+ / 0-)

    I wouldn't have minded Thich Nhat Hahn giving the "benediction" but that's too much to expect I guess. :)

    Your political compass Economic Left/Right: -6.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67

    by bythesea on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:27:57 PM PST

  •  There was another diary about this too (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pd, DaleA, MJB, joanneleon, Kewalo

    That there is "balance". Look, while I am pleased about Lowery, there is still no excuse for having a hater up there who says gay marriage is a crime like incest. It does not make it any more acceptable.
    Just as it would be unacceptable to have Cornell West and a clansman on the stage. As wonderful as Cornell West is, that would not make up for the fact that someone felt it suitable to give the white supremacist equal time.
    I'm gay. Someone preaching hatred against me, saying I'm a criminal, will burn in hell, am an abomination is not acceptable. Now way, no how, never. I will not be watching the inauguration. Sad that yet another Obama milestone has to be clouded by hatred directed toward me. But this time, the hatred came on engraved invitations from Obama...

    A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

    by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:30:34 PM PST

  •  Thank you for bringing this news (4+ / 0-)

    it is a welcome breath of fresh air.  

    Join us in the Grieving Room on Monday evenings to discuss mourning and loss.

    by Dem in the heart of Texas on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:30:43 PM PST

  •  Why isn't Lowery FIRST? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaleA, Big Tex

    The invocation sets the tone for the entire ritual, the benediction is just wrap-up. I despise Warren and the idea of him participating at all makes me want to vomit, but if he must be part of it, then put him at the end.

    I'm a vapid mystic with a special, cult-like religious relationship to the destroyed reactor at Three Mile Island. ~ H/T to NNadir

    by The Werewolf Prophet on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:32:20 PM PST

  •  Nice to see a father of reason (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, Kewalo, japangypsy, mellowwild

    get some accolades for a life of work to better life for others.

    A lovely little thinker, But a bugger when he's pissed

    by yuriwho on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:33:00 PM PST

  •  Since i am not religious (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, BlueInRedCincy

    i am not an atheist proably an agnostic I really dont care who gives the prayers at this event. I will be at DC for this historical event no matter what

    •  It's not a matter of religion (6+ / 0-)

      It's a  matter of putting someone who actively preaches hatred of millions of Americans on a stage. We are supposed to listen to this mans words of "love", the one that says gay marriage is a crime like incest? You can be an atheist or agnostic and see that as apauling.

      A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

      by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:44:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thank you Phoenix, I was (5+ / 0-)

    hoping someone would post a diary on Lowery.  What a lovely man.  Funny how this was overlooked by many here.  

  •  Obama speaks on Rick Warren: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Always Thinkin
  •  Rick Warren 's invitation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, Timbuk3

    serves to demonstrate that Obama is the President of the whole United states, including double crossing homophobes like Mr. Warren. That said I am looking forward for a big shout of outrage by the progressive community. Not so much to demonstrate to our new President that not all the time we will agree with his decision making but mainly to inform Mr. warren that there is a significant number of americans that find his positions as well as his use of Religion to instill fearand division, disgusting,reprehensible and totally non acceptable. Probably you should carry two pairs of shoes one to wear and the other to throw. Just kidding.

    •  Bullshit (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      m3, Pd, DaleA, MJB, Timbuk3, sephius1

      Then invite clansman. Invite Muslim haters. There are certain people who preach hate who do not deserve a platform. On President Obama's first day in office, he is giving a marquee place to a person who hates me, thinks I'm a criminal and gay marriage is a crime. This is me, a living, human being. But somehow this is ok.
      Let me ask again, what would happen if some president invited someone who was a racist and talked about n***ers? People would not tolerate it. Or someone who hated Mexicans, or women, or the elderly. But because it's hatred against gay people, we should all shut the fuck up.

      A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

      by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:54:35 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Personally... (5+ / 0-)

    I'll just try to think of it as symbolic of the transition of power. Starting the ceremony with a conservative preacher and administration and ending it with a liberal preacher and administration.

    Even though that's probably not what they were thinking.

    •  Personally (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SadEagle, DaleA, thebluecrayon

      I think it is giving a platform to someone who hates me and wants to deprive me of my right to happiness. This is not some political playbook, it is my life and my fundamental rights. The "blessing" on the 20th comes from someone who hates me, thinks I am a criminal.
      I don't care what the symbolism is - it is disgusting.

      A fellow ain't got a soul of his own, just little piece of a big soul, the one big soul that belongs to everybody - Tom Joad, Grapes of Wrath

      by gladkov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 10:56:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How about we just eliminate (11+ / 0-)

    both the invocation and the benediction, out of respect for the millions of us who are non-believers, and ask Rev. Lowry to give a nice speech instead.  And tell Rick Warren to stay his homophobic ass at home.  That would be great.

  •  Nice diary. I needed it b/c Obama (9+ / 0-)

    pissed me the hell off with this Rick Warren b.s.  

    I've given Obama the benefit of the doubt up til this point, but the cynic in me has been awakened by the selection of this fundamentalist, MegaEgo-Driven (not Purpose-DrivenTM) buffoon.  Damn!  Got my pressure all up.

    Anyway, I am glad for the inclusion of Lowery in the ceremonies.  He is truly a treasure.  As an agnostic, I say more Joseph Lowerys and fewer (to none) Rick Warrens.

    President Barack Obama. 11.04.08.

    by PoliticalJunkessa on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:03:33 PM PST

  •  Let's hope that his beautiful benediction (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, LordMike, sephius1

    erases all memories of the hate preachers words.

    "The struggle of humanity against power, is the struggle of memory against forgetting." -- Milan Kundera

    by LV Pol Girl on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:15:45 PM PST

  •  Rick Warren was chosen to appease the racist, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LeftofArizona, Timbuk3, mellowwild

    homophobic, sanctimonious right wing. Someone has to lift their dismal spirits, and continue the delusional notion that this country's a white Christian nation, right? I mean god forbid they fade into the shadows like the good lil minority party they are.

    "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in times of great moral crisis maintain their neutrality." - Dante

    by jazzence on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:20:33 PM PST

  •  The Genius of Obama? Or Am I Wrong? (8+ / 0-)

    OK, let me revise my opinion.

    Now my read is that he is deliberately bringing these people of polarized opposite opinions to the table to let the age-old wounds heal.  Perhaps his experience as a community organizer is:

    Control the situation, bring the parties together and they will see that in the proper setting, neither is the raging monster they are often perceived, or portrayed by the other.

    This is interesting.  The small earthquake in Illinois is also a seismic political event, turning many a political fate (hello Candidate #5!).

    I have a hunch Obama may after all be smarter than us!  Is that possible?

    As an aside, I find all of this - the hubbub over the slight against us, perceived OR portrayed - extremely instructive!  One is never in complete possession of all the facts at the beginning, is one?  And yet, the heart cares not for facts!

    I'm talking a kind of a "wait and see" attitude.  Though I would that the Rick Warrens be tarred and feathered like in the olden days, and I am quite sore from the treatment I've gotten from the GOP (they looted us!), this is not what Obama is telling us to do, is it?

    He's saying "I am making peace with the Rick Warrens of the world."

    Now that's different!

    And I think many of us now cannot claim to have considered that very different course in our imagined political fantasies.  By our behavior exhibited here, such a radical approach seems conciliatory, weak, and prone to a recession of our own power.  Perhaps Obama sees this differently; perhaps he sees rather an expansion of influence.  Is that possible?

  •  I stabbed myself in the chest too early??? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    a night owl, Wolf Of Aquarius

    Oh No!!!

    Call 9 fucking one one!!!

    Mother fuckers, HURRY!!!

    "Just to be clear, what I mean by the shock doctrine, as you know, is the use of crisis to push through unpopular pro-corporate policies." Naomi Klein

    by eroded47095 on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:27:49 PM PST

  •  Lowery's a great person (8+ / 0-)

    Funny story: so far as I'm aware, I'm not only the only white ass to ever ride in his Cadillac Millennium, but I'm the only person not named "Lowery" to ever drive the thing.

    Back in '04, I was the body man for Rep. Denise Majette when she ran for Senate in GA.  Lowery and one of his civic groups, the Georgia Coalition for the People's Agenda, had backed McKinney in their infamous 2002 primary, but once Denise announced for the Senate he did everything he could to bring the entire Atlanta black community in line around our campaign, including riding around for a day with Denise on an RV lent to us by SEIU.

    Anyhow, he couldn't come with us on the full trip (which was going to be 5 days straight on the road in South Georgia--another story for another time), so he insisted that we bring his car, so that he could leave the caravan that evening.  But because it would have looked bad for him and Denise to ride separately, he needed someone else to drive it for him, and as the Congresswoman's driver, the job fell to me, at the time a 21 year-old white kid from the Atlanta suburbs.

    He seemed apprehensive, so I reminded him that we'd actually met two years before, back before I actually knew who he was.  I was working for former Rep. Buddy Darden, who was running in the primary for what's now Phil Gingrey's seat, and our campaign's political director thought we should send someone to a rally he was holding in Southwest Atlanta (Too Strong!) to kiss the ring.  And somehow, the job fell to me, the lowly (and very caucasian) intern.  So I spent a very fun afternoon hanging in a park with Joe Lowery, Rev. James Orange (who recently passed on), about 40 other people (including around ten of the cutest kids I've ever met--I taught them to play ultimate frisbee), and, to my chagrin, Billy McKinney.  And yeah, I stuck out like a white thumb.

    So on the RV, once we got ready to board to go to the press conference where Rev. Lowery would officially endorse Denise, I reminded him of our brief meeting and he immediately warmed to me (though I think he would have been warm if we were perfect strangers--he's a nice guy).  He still looked like he was handing his baby to a motorcycle gang member when he gave me the key fob for his Caddy, but I got it back to him in perfect health, and when Primary Day came up and we needed to run a caravan with a sound truck around the city, he was fine with tossing me his keys again.

    Before I'd heard he was on the program, I was really hoping Obama would choose him for the invocation (or possibly John Lewis, who's also the last surviving speaker from the March on Washington, as I recall).  In any event, I'm glad they're putting him back on a stage with George W. Bush, one last time. :)

    The people are competent: why shouldn't the government be competent? The people tell the truth, so why should the government lie? -Jimmy Carter

    by JR on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:32:26 PM PST

  •  Outreach, outreach, outreach. (6+ / 0-)

    If Obama wants to win over that 45-50% of the population that agrees with Warren, this kind of thing is important.  Extending a hand and saying "work with me" is what Obama is saying, and I think it's a great idea.  Aren't we all tired of divisiveness?

    I finally put in a signature!

    by Boris Godunov on Wed Dec 17, 2008 at 11:40:01 PM PST

    •  No, we are tired of homophobia (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pd, joanneleon

      which Warren personifies. He should be treated as a nonperson, excluded from all public events in the new administration. Including the inaugreation.

      •  He represents many, many more people (4+ / 0-)

        Than you or I do.  45-50% of the country shares his views.  Good luck excluding all those people...

        I finally put in a signature!

        by Boris Godunov on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:07:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I do not treat even my worst enemy (4+ / 0-)

        as a "nonperson".  Doing such engages in the very ignorance and lack of respect for basic human dignity that they employ.  In fighting against homophobia, we cannot become that which we are fighting against.

        "The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." Milan Kundera

        by Guy Fawkes on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:30:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Loving your enemies is the Christian perspective (0+ / 0-)

          And it bears stressing here that we are talking about SEPARATION of Church and State!  Just because loving your enemies is more likely to get you into Heaven DOES NOT make it more likely to bring about constructive change in public policy!
          "Oh, if only Rev.Warren's parents and grandparents had LOVED those Klansmen MORE".. SHIT!!!!!!!  Rev. Warren WOULD NOT BE TALKING THAT SMACK about the Klan!
          Yes, we resisted that non-violently, but the point is,WE STILL RESISTED!!!  What the inauguration is doing here is  NOT resisting.

          The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

          by ge0rge on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:50:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You mistake my meaning (0+ / 0-)

            I am not advocating Rick Warren speaking here.  I am simply stating that the response advocated in the post above is the same sort of intolerance that is being decried by the poster.  

            I can tolerate someone and their beliefs without giving them a microphone.  Treating someone like "nonperson" as the poster above advocates, strips a person of their basic dignity and humanity.  It has nothing to do with a religious belief, but rather a simple respect for a person's humanity.  

            All of our laws are based in ethics and morality.  All of the changes that I and the other posters here sought through getting Barack Obama elected originated in a belief in the worth of each human being.  Treating those with whom I disagree with disrespect and intolerance does nothing to further my cause, and serves to further entrench those with whom I disagree.  

            "The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." Milan Kundera

            by Guy Fawkes on Sat Dec 20, 2008 at 04:17:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  responding to the experience of being treated (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SpyralPegacyon, lirtydies, conlakappa, ETF

        aa a non-person (what bigotry does principally is to dehumanize) with the call for the bigots to themselves be treated as "non-persons" just continues the wretched cycle of brutality that brought us here, the very same one we seek to extinguish.

        The most important thing in life to remember, IMO, is that the content and true reflection of us is not in the quantity of the trespasses against us, but in the quality of our reactions and responses to those trespasses.

        "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

        by emperor nobody on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:17:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  We really are tired of divisiveness. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pd, condorcet

      That's why we don't give a platform (literally) and a huge global audience to divisive people like Warren.

      "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." --Samuel Johnson

      by joanneleon on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:04:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  those voters don't give a shit (0+ / 0-)

      about invocations.

      the way to win them over is by passing important legislation.

  •  There is actually a deep symbolism here. The (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lauramp, BrighidG, DEMindia

    opening statement is given by the homophobe, but the end results of the process is the open-minded guy! That is quite cool.

  •  I admire Lowery and all, but ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timbuk3, bigchin

    ... to balance out Warren's bigotry requires a gay activist doing the closing benediction.

  •  Definitions of "balance": (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timbuk3, wigwam, emperor nobody
    - having a white male and a white woman representing America is "balance";

    - having a white male and a black male representing America is "balance";

    - having a straight male and a straight female representing America is "balance";

    - having a liberal Christian and a conservative Christian representing America is "balance.

    In all but the last example, most progressives would find fault.

    Where are you when non-Christians - let alone non-monotheists - much less atheists - are left to feel that they are, at best, tolerated guests at America's table?

    I have said elsewhere, my support for GBLT rights - for equal rights for ALL Americans - is unconditional and does not depend on reciprocity. Nonetheless, it hurts when, as is so often the case in the "progressive" blogosphere, the argument boils down to whether Jesus was a liberal or a progressive, and whether Lefty Jesus or Righty Jesus should lead us.

    WWJD is not an appropriate question when it comes to American government, American laws or American policies. A religious invocation at a Presidential inauguration is inappropriate at best, discriminatory and exclusionary at worst. This is my Republic, too.

    One day posterity will remember, this strange era, these strange times, when ordinary common honesty was called courage. -- Yevgeny Yevtushenko

    by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:10:17 AM PST

  •  Thanks for a great diary... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, Timbuk3, BrighidG, mellowwild
    on Lowery.  He is an absolutely great reminder of the best of the civil rights movement.  I LOVE that he is involved and now that the possible 'beginning-ending symbolism' has been evoked...I am pretty glad he's the one rounding the bases.  

    That being said...how could I not feel great sadness due to the inclusion of Warren.  
    I feel for our GLBT family, I truly do.  And I hope that with Obama we're moving in a more positive policy direction; with the repeal of "Don't Ask Don't Tell" as Powell has verbalized, as the opening shot, that would be a great start...with much more to come hopefully.

    So with much solidarity I must stand extremely proud at the inclusion of J. Lowery and hope that as such we stand with more power than those that stand with Warren.

  •  Give Peace a Chance (4+ / 0-)

    rick warren is a non-issue.

    big deal. get over it.

    let's move on!

  •  Warren has some redeeming social value (8+ / 0-)

    From a liberal religious perspective, I would have preferred a humanist.  

    But one the goals of progressives is to end the political hegemony of the religious right.  
    Rick Warren is distinctly not part of the James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell crowd. Not even part of the Billy Graham crowd.   He is reviled by the freeper crowd--much to his favor.  Warren is a slap to the former power brokers of the religious right.  

    He has been a leader in pushing evangelicals toward environmental concerns--stewardship.  And in favor of good sex education.  And teaching good science, although waffling a bit about evolution/creationism.  And away from merely moralistic (sex) concerns.  "Purpose driven" implies a pragmatic aspect beyond the doctrinaire.

    The symbolic aspect of Warren cuts in different ways. Obama seems to have a knack for building comity.    

    Having Warren will confuse the religious right.  While they are confused, they are not occupied in other mischief.  

    Obama knows a lot about how "communities" are made up by individuals--how to disarm the strident ones, how to build from disparate opinions and emotions.  

    As others have pointed out, the first speaker will be forgotten (except by the constituency that is attuned);  the last prayer will get slight attention. Viewers take away an overall impression.

    Joseph Lowery  will likely emphasize social justice.  Warren will be worrying about his future influence and will not be extreme.

    •  Oh, stop lying (0+ / 0-)

      Rick Warren is distinctly not part of the James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell crowd. Not even part of the Billy Graham crowd.

      We can judge that for ourselves, on the basis of his own statements, among which are:

         ...There were all kinds of threats that if that [Prop 8] did not pass, then any pastor could be considered doing hate speech if he shared his views that he didn’t think homosexuality was the most natural way for relationships. And that would be hate speech. To me, we should have freedom of speech. And you should be able to have freedom of speech to make your position, and I should be able to have freedom of speech to make my position. And can we do this in a civil way?

      NO, DUMABASS, you canNOT civilly say that some people DON'T deserve equal protection of the laws.  And questions about whether "homosexuality is the most natural way for relationships" make about as much sense as question about whether "left-handed is the most natural way to write."
      YES THAT IS hate-speech and THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T KNOW THIS ALREADY, WITHOUT having it explained to you, reflects VERY badly on your claim TO EVEN BE a Christian.
      If we were pro-actively harming you, if we were smiting you on one cheek, THEN YOU WOULD KNOW to LOVE us, to TURN THE OTHER.  But when we're not even bothering anybody and JUST loving, suddenly you think that THEN you can call us "unnatural"??
      If this didn't occur naturally then there would be no need for laws against it -- nobody would be naturally tempted to do it.

      The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

      by ge0rge on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:46:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Now that's the kind of message (5+ / 0-)

    all ministers should be sending.

    Mahalo for this diary.  I had never heard of Joseph Lowery, but I'm glad he will be there.

  •  It Seems to Me (6+ / 0-)

    that we need not shrink in fear or replicate the exclusionary values of those we disagree with.

    Remember what Obama said in his Call to Renewal Keynote Address -

    Moreover, if we progressives shed some of these biases, we might recognize some overlapping values that both religious and secular people share when it comes to the moral and material direction of our country. We might recognize that the call to sacrifice on behalf of the next generation, the need to think in terms of "thou" and not just "I," resonates in religious congregations all across the country. And we might realize that we have the ability to reach out to the evangelical community and engage millions of religious Americans in the larger project of American renewal.

    Some of this is already beginning to happen. Pastors, friends of mine like Rick Warren and T.D. Jakes are wielding their enormous influences to confront AIDS, Third World debt relief, and the genocide in Darfur. Religious thinkers and activists like our good friend Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo are lifting up the Biblical injunction to help the poor as a means of mobilizing Christians against budget cuts to social programs and growing inequality.

    It's not naive or weak to look to the best in each of us and create community with people we disagree with.  That's the only way to work together to fix the problems that plague us all.

    Perhaps Rick Warren will be changed by this embrace and so open his heart to the possibility that gay men and women are really no less human than he is.

    I see Obama as the bridge that's going to get us all from here, which is fast becoming chaos folks, to there.

    He wasn't joking when he said change going to be hard work.

    •  YES (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Patricia Taylor, mellowwild

      put 'em in the light and let the sunshine disinfect them of their homophobia, that is the ticket... the only way they can change is if we put them in a position where they have to either out themselves as haters or accept us as fully human.

      I am ALL FOR an "Ex-Homophobe" movement, let's get there people cured, I say!

      "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

      by emperor nobody on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:23:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good diary! You remind us -- and certainly (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lauramp, Always Thinkin, mellowwild

    some need reminded -- that Obama THINKS before he acts.  We should already be accustomed to this way of doing business, even though there has been little thinking in the oval office for so long that we're not used to it.

  •  The OTHER pastor is the focus of this diary. The (10+ / 0-)

    Warren outcry haa plenty of other diaries to fill. What bothers me is that despite Lowery's public stance in support of gay issues, the majority of comments on all this topic focus on Warren. Lowery gets minimal play and focus. I have to wonder is it simply easier to be angry. There is a balance and there is support from another major pastor but yet even on the Other pastor diary, if you count there is more Warren hatorade going strong as if Warren is flying solo, the only pastor with a mic. Why is Lowery's Gay support not highly valued cherished and uplifted as much if not more than Warren is despised?

    •  The bad focus is due to bad reporting (0+ / 0-)

      There were an FP story and a diary yesterday that mentioned that Warren had been picked WITHOUT mentioning that Lowery had ALSO been picked.
      If the reporting had been balanced then this situation could've been positively compared to the one in South Carolina where Obama first picked Donnie McClurkin and then added some white gay advocate as an afterthought.
      It really seems to me like he's LEARNED something.

      The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

      by ge0rge on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:40:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  PW - sorry your lovely diary got preempted (10+ / 0-)

    by the RW debate. I have had the privilege of meeting Reverend Lowery and I cannot tell you what an enormous presence he is. Yet he has a warming humility of spirit. I expect (hope? pray?) that his benediction will wipe the memory of Warren right out of everyone's head, especially that of the media. Thank you for the great reminder diary.

    Everyone does better when EVERYONE does better.

    by Blue Patriot Woman on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 01:17:07 AM PST

  •  God Bless the United States of Chicago! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    emperor nobody
  •  Cabinet Posts To Neocons, "Shovels" For Po' Folks (0+ / 0-)

    Cruel god reverend before inauguration,... Saint on behind.

    Where is the middle, the thinkers-the masses of the rest of us?

  •  I love Dr. Lowery and I am soo happy that he will (6+ / 0-)

    be a part of the ceremony.

  •  Obama has already backpeddled on the promise he (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timbuk3

    made to overturn DADT, something that now has wide spread support with the public and is extremely detrimental to the national security of this country. If not now, when? He now has two strikes against him since winning the election....

    Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

    by tnichlsn on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 02:00:00 AM PST

    •  Let the man... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DAVE DIAL, drache, mellowwild

      take office before even thinking about strikes... let's be real.

      •  if gay arabic translators hadn't been "fired" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timbuk3

        10 years ago 9-11 might never have happened. DADT is a national security issue as much as a GLBT issue. And polls show wide support among everyone for it being overturned. This was a gutless, cowardly act by Obama even before he's taken office...

        Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

        by tnichlsn on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 03:43:28 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually they've only said they'll postpone (0+ / 0-)

      overturning it. I'm sorry but there is no way this is such a pressing issue it has to be RIGHT NOW.

      •  what part of 9-11 did you think unimportant? (0+ / 0-)

        you obviously didn't know anyone killed on that day.

        Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

        by tnichlsn on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:04:48 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yes, even though he isn't in office yet and cannot (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ETF, tigermom3
      actually do anything about DADT he should currently allow his cabinet appointments and his organizational efforts to turn around the economy be diverted by an endless right wing barrage of bloviating about teh gays in the military. And wham mainstream America starts to assume that Obama cares more about having 'homos in the military' than preventing more and more Americans--gay, straight, bi, trans, pan, etc.--from losing their jobs, houses, health insurance, and/or retirement funds.

      And let's not forget Obama cannot stop anybody from being fired until he takes the oath of office. Perhaps, instead of promoting your pet project with Rovian hyperbole (I guess you don't know anybody who died on 9/11, yes many politicians who wrap themselves in the flag will be so proud of your efforts) perhaps you should take a step back so you can see the bigger picture. Obama is not a saint or a super-hero so he cannot perform miracles nor can he tackle a thousand different issues all at once. We are in triage mode after eight years of purposeful malfeasance and destructive incomptence, which means the most pressing matters have to be attended to first and once those get rolling in the right direction other issues can be addressed. Give our President the chance to do the right thing and if in a half a year from now DADT still isn't reversed I'll gladly join you in condemning him but for now I am going to assume he knows what he is doing, that he knows he only has so much political capital as a new President, which means he cannot tackle every single progressive agenda item all at once before he is even in the White House. And, by the way, I'm gay and out in Idaho and have been involved with radical politics for almost two decades starting with Earth First! and living within the Nez Perce National Forest to prevent the decimation of a vital wilderness corridor and the construction of over 300 miles of new roads within that wilderness area. It took us over six years to get that logging sale stopped and they did accomplish about a 1/4 of it but they should have finished it 100% in less than two years not to mention we made if utterly cost ineffective to continue with quadruple the original budgeted money spent to only get a 1/4 of the project completed. Some times a battle takes a long time to win and Obama appearing to prioritize DADT over fixing the economy will only make him look beholden to the far left because that is exactly how Fux News etc. will spin it. I'm sorry you're going to have to wait a few more months but that's the nature of life--we can't always get what we want right when we want it. And don't forget if Obama hadn't won you'd be waiting at least four to eight years to get your wish.

      And yes, it is idiotic to fire anybody in the military be they cooks, interpreters, or field manual authors just because their genes direct their attention to people of the same sex. And yes there are thousands of people who think their personal political obsession should be the number one priority of Obama and that if he doesn't make that issue his number one priority then he's betrayed them. Of course, your priority is THE most important priority and anybody who says otherwise must not understand the impact of 9-11 and the horrors of being fired from a job for being queer. Like I haven't been fired twice for being gay nor have I ever had to police suddenly treat me like shit the moment they realized I am gay.

      And if you respond to this make sure you take just one sentence and force it out of context to support your position without bothering to internalize the entirety of what I said although I would suggest you pick something besides the 9-11 canard.

      Krusty the Klown Brand Klassic Signatures

      by Carl Brutanananadilewski on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:56:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  how's this, I had a very close friend die in (0+ / 0-)

        one of those planes on 9-11, who might very well be alive today if those arabic interpreters hadn't been getting fired over the years. And if another attack were to take place on US soil within these next 6 months, all of the homeland security bullshit and rolling back of rights under Bush/Cheney will suddenly become much more palatable to the American public and probably never get rolled back to where the founding fathers intended.

        Support democracy at home and abroad, join the ACLU & Amnesty International http://www.aclu.org and http://takeaction.amnestyusa.org Your voice is needed!

        by tnichlsn on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:46:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I see it this way (5+ / 0-)

    (GM, 42, Oakland, CA here)

    He has Tricky Ricky give his purpose driven spiel at the beginning, the opening convocation when technically, at that moment, he isn't quite President yet.  Then he takes the Oath of Office, they go through the whole ceremony, and Lowery gives the closing benediction.  

    He's just saving that guy for his first official moments in office, as if to say Rick Warren's values started this shit, but Joseph Lowery's are gonna finish it.

    I think it's cool, it's an interesting before/after contrast with a subtle message and I dig it.

    "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

    by emperor nobody on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 03:01:21 AM PST

    •  let me add that (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies, ETF, mellowwild

      I also appreciate that there's a contrast to be MADE, that a President of the US is using his inaugural (!) to sort of put us out front in a very serious way, knowing that people are gonna talk about Warren vs. Lowery and what they stand for and so forth... no one can say this guy doesn't have us on his mind and what to do to help us access our equality, he's just going to engage all sides of it in a pretty out-front way, the whole spectrum from the homophobes to the ACT UP-type folks and get everyone thinking about it outside of purely their own terms and their own investment in it.

      I mean, just the idea that he's using the dual prechers on either side of taking that Oath, to turn on the light bulb in people's heads and use the moment to point the way from the ridiculousness of Warren to the inclusiveness of Lowery, I can't help but dig it even if it takes place on a subtle level that takes a while to sink in.

      "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

      by emperor nobody on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 03:08:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I like that way of thinking about it more (0+ / 0-)

      I might not mentally spit when I hear Tricky Rick's voice (heh! Great nickname :) during the inauguration if I keep that in mind.

  •  Obama is several... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shhs, Always Thinkin, mellowwild

    steps ahead of the rest of us... he knows how to play the game.

  •  well i'm not going now. (0+ / 0-)

    Barack Obama... More Cowbell

    by titotitotito on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:16:48 AM PST

  •  Dramatic flourish (7+ / 0-)

    For someone characterized as "no drama Obama", the bookends of the inaugural have some dramatic flow.

    The preacher who does the invocation while Bush is still president is Ray Warren.

    The preacher who does the benediction after Obama is sworn in is Joseph Lowery.

    Now, there is change we can believe in.

    •  that's what I said a few comments back (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SpyralPegacyon, msdrown, ETF, japangypsy

      The point is that the attitudes of malice and bigotry are going to become more and more self-substantiating as NOT the way to be a human being in this life to MORE and MORE people as the Sarah Palins and the Rick Warrens will become increasingly self-caricaturizing with their Jesus-hates-you idiocies.

      Look out here in CA right now, half the Prop 8 supporters are on TV with their arms around any queer within hugging distance, pretending they really DO think we are worth more than free-range chickens as per our rights.  This is what is happening and going forward this is what is gonna KEEP happening at a more intense level: the assholes are going to make themselves look even more foolish than nature intends, and the end result is that people aren't gonna buy into that trip quite so easily any more, the hate-for-Christ circus has done come to town and gone and it's losing its flavor by the hour right about now.

      I dunno, maybe I'm on crack rocks but I think the idea of a POTUS using his grand moment where every single person on Earth is gonna be watching to sort of subtly (i.e., in a substantive but non-overbearing or overly-intentional-seeming way) trot our issues out into the light and let the forces on either side of it show themselves, well I think if that's the case then we are gonna win, because that means people are gonna see us and know us as we truly are and their hearts will become unable to practice the malice upon us that they have been participating in with the help and encouragement of these bigoted assclowns.

      I think Rick Warren is a profiteering hypoChristian asshat of the lowest stripe, but if that reality is ever going to come into a greater recognition and cause the masses to stop looking at his funky ass for spiritual guidance, then moments like this must be constructed, because when the argument about us being worthy of loving each other comes into the public sphere in a substantive and thought-provoking way, that means that the good guys (the good gays?) can win, and that's a sure sign that our best days as both a micro-nation of LGBTQ folks and a macro-nation of Americans are ahead of us.

      "Some of you are going to die... martyrs, of course, to the Freedom that I will provide!"

      by emperor nobody on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:55:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  hand-over ceremony (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      lirtydies, msdrown, mellowwild

      A bit like handing over the flag at the Olympic games.
      Warren represents the narrow mindedness of GWB.
      Lowery shows that christianity can [and should]  be inclusive. It is about love not hate.
      Whatever Warren says he is representing the 'old' and Lowery the progressive way of thinking.

  •  I am outraged at the Warren selection: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timbuk3, vacuumslayer

    Barack Obama said that he's not going to be the President of Democrats or Republicans, but the President of ALL Americans.

    I did not support the right of African Americans because I am Black (I am not). I did not support women's rights because I am female (am not either). I probably defend Hispanics against hatred attacks because I am one, but I'd like to think I would defend them anyway. No, defending the rights of any of these groups is not important because we are or are not one of them; it is important because they are all citizens of our great Country and deserve the same rights under the Constitution.

    PE Obama's selection of Warren makes me wonder if PE really understands that.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:44:05 AM PST

  •  President Obama, Dis-invite Warren (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, Kevvboy, Silent Spring

    There's an emerging opinion that this is no big deal. "There are other preachers, and the one giving the closing is a good guy", "Obama's just being 'inclusive'."

    I say "bullshit". He shouldn't be given a seat at the table. Obama's right that he's "President to all of (us)", and that was central to my early disgust with Bush, before he showed his "war criminal" side. Bush ruled as a one-sided ideological extremist, and told the rest of us to "sit down and shut up".

    I'm OK with Obama being "inclusive", but there are limits. You can't be "inclusive" with people who believe that they're acting on behalf of God and therefore infallible. You can't "include" people who don't compromise, even when their "opinion" runs counter to the law / constitution. There are only two possible results when you deal with such people.

    They'll take 100% of what they want.

    They'll go away mad, complaining that you've only given "lip service" to them.

    A far better plan is to kick them to the curb immediately, and let them work OPENLY from their position of hostility.

    Setting aside the mixture of religion and politics that the invocation represents, because it's been done for years and we're not likely to discard it soon, the argument that "the other guys are OK" is nonsense.

    "I use several baby sitters. Only one of them is a child molester."

    "Only one of the speakers has a record of attending 'death to America' rallies, so what's the big deal?"

    It's absurd.

    Even toning it down to "there are some things I agree with Warren about" is absurd. Warren is an active anti-gay bigot who believes the 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th amendments should be ignored in order to allow states to enact unconstitutional laws.

    By placing him in such a symbolic position, however temporary, it sends the signal (to Warren's supporters AND detractors) that these uncompromising unconstitutional positions deserve to be heard.

    Giving them a prominent position at the beginning gives them credibility they don't deserve.

    Does Obama understand that the election is over, and he can't please all the people all the time?

    This is hardly the end of the world, and I'm still willing to wait and see how he governs, but this choice of speaker at this important event is abhorrent. It's like allowing Dick Cheney to speak at a peace rally "because we need to hear from both sides".

    The expression I use is, "I'll forgive, but I won't forget."

    "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

    by Timbuk3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 04:44:38 AM PST

    •  wow just wow (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Goldie Taylor

      First Obama can't uninvite him because he didn't invite him in the first place (go read Ice's diary on the rec list please).

      Secondly seriously, this is where you're going to draw your line? This is your hill to die on?

      As pastors go Warren's views while certainly not pro homsexuals is still worlds away from Hagee, Roberts, and so on.

      •  Not my "hill to die on" (0+ / 0-)

        For starters, I'm a middle aged straight guy.

        Then, I said this: "This is hardly the end of the world, and I'm still willing to wait and see how he governs."

        I don't appreciate your disingenuous reply any more than I appreciate Obama giving credibility to a fundamentalist kook.

        "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

        by Timbuk3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:49:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm sorry you don't like my reply (0+ / 0-)

          I mean my life just isn't complete unless I'm pleasing at least 10 people a day and obviously this is going to make that harder

          /end snark

          I don't care if you like my reply or not, but if you're going to accuse me of things you should back it up. Least you be accused of making empty claims against me.

          You said alot of things, some I agree with some I don't. I replied to the things I didn't like.

          For example

          There's an emerging opinion that this is no big deal. "There are other preachers, and the one giving the closing is a good guy", "Obama's just being 'inclusive'."

          I say "bullshit". He shouldn't be given a seat at the table.

          Maybe it's your wording (which to be fair I had a hard time following) but you seem to be talking about Warren here.

          If you're not correct my misundering.

          A far better plan is to kick them to the curb immediately, and let them work OPENLY from their position of hostility.

          Again I disagree (at least I do if you're talking about Warren and those that support him) and further this contradicts what you stated to say earlier in your comment.

          I use several baby sitters. Only one of them is a child molester."

          This is false equlivency, Warren (again assuming you're talking about him) is not committing any crime by exercising his free speech. Nor is it illegal for people to lobby for what they believe in. I disagree with Warren strongly but that doesn't negate his rights nor does it mean we should shove him and his into a corner now that we're in power.

          Further this again contradicts what you started with.

          Even toning it down to "there are some things I agree with Warren about" is absurd. Warren is an active anti-gay bigot who believes the 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th amendments should be ignored in order to allow states to enact unconstitutional laws.

          By placing him in such a symbolic position, however temporary, it sends the signal (to Warren's supporters AND detractors) that these uncompromising unconstitutional positions deserve to be heard.

          Again this is what I was talking in reponse to

          I can keep going but frankly I think I made my point.

          I don't know what you thought you wrote, and  I don't know if your meaning came across as you meant but I stand by what I said.

          Now let's see you prove your claim or you could just apologize for calling what I wrote disingenous, up to you

          •  I'm not going to get in a pissing contest (0+ / 0-)

            ...with the likes of you.

            The very diary you mention contains this statement in an update: "
            Obama requested Warren"

            Obama defended the selection of Warren TODAY.

            Since I won't likely convince you, do your own google and convince yourself. Iceberge slim is a reliable Obama supporter and shouldn't be "our" sole source for ALL "facts".

            Your accusation against me was "this is my hill to die on", which my first comment clearly refutes: "This is hardly the end of the world."

            You go on to play word games by changine "appreciate" to "please".

            I mean, why argue about what I said when you can just change all meaning to something you can attack, right?

            "The gay marriage debate" is certainly a symptom of the underlying disease. It's also an example of "First they came..." Apathy in the face of an assault on the rights of anyone is apathy in the face of an assault on us all...

            But it's not the central argument. I realize that we may not yet be at the time when we will truly have equal rights for all.

            What bothers me is that I'm we're all expected to passively accept Obama turning the granite on which the principle that the US is a secular nation stands into quicksand.

            Extremists have been working for DECADES to change the terms of the debate. When the President himself invites people who believe that their religious beliefs should over-ride the constitution (and that states should be allowed to over-ride the constitution on a vote of 50% + 1 to enact this vision) to the table it lends credibility and "centrism" to those who have no legitimate claim to either.

            Don't forget that this isn't the first time Obama's pandered to religious extremists. He's also spoken about continuing the program that the RW religious extremists spent so much time putting into place; the transfer of tax dollars into their bank accounts. Bush funded them because they're his "base". Why Obama wants to continue to fund them is beyond me.

            Like I said, this isn't the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm still waiting to see how he GOVERNS, which is far more important than this bit of symbolism, but I'm far less optimistic that his choices for SCOTUS, an issue I care deeply about, will be people I think should be nominated.

            "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

            by Timbuk3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:55:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm confused, you say you (0+ / 0-)

              don't 'want to engage in a pissing match' but then go and write this huge comment.

              So which is it? You staying or leaving?

              If you're staying.....Iceberg put together a good diary, you don't like that because it intefers with you being able to feel so pompously self rightous. If you want to contest that diary, we might want to take it over there. I must say though it's sad that the best you've got is 'well Icebery is an Obama supporter :shifty eyes:'

              The thought I have is pick a stance you're flip flopping between stances and it's annoyning.

              I already showed how you're contradicting yourself, maybe that's because your unsure yourself but I'm tired of trying to figure out waht you're saying.

              •  Support your own statements (0+ / 0-)

                I've known for years that when I wrestle with pigs I get dirty, but since you insist...

                You say "Obama didn't choose Warren".

                Prove it.

                You say I've chosen this as my hill to die on.

                Prove it.

                You say "the best (I've) got" is "iceberg is an Obama supporter" as if that statement is an insult. Why do you react this way.

                You ignore what I clearly state is the central argument, that Obama is giving credibility to an extremist. Why is that?

                You're confusing your own lack of reading comprehension for confusion on my part. Perhaps you should start over with my first comment and go from there?

                "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

                by Timbuk3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:34:41 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  when I know exactly what you're saying (0+ / 0-)

                  then I'll prove it but as it is you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

                  You say Bush was horrible because he didn't listen to people with opposing views and then you go and do what you said you hate.

                  So you'll forgive me but I'm confused and until I know what your stance is it's hard to prove anything.

                  •  To recap (0+ / 0-)

                    What is wrong with you?

                    Seriously?

                    YOU wrote this in a comment to someone else: "If you don't like what I said  that's fine, but don't make up things and then say 'well that's essentially what you said'." http://www.dailykos.com/...

                    Then you do exactly that, to me.

                    Here are the things you claim or imply that I've said that DO NOT APPEAR ANYWHERE IN ANYTHING I'VE WRITTEN.

                    "this is where you're going to draw your line? This is your hill to die on?"

                    No. In my first post I said "I'm still willing to wait and see how he governs".

                    "you don't like (iceberg's diary) because it intefers with you being able to feel so pompously self rightous."

                    If you can point out anything I've said about Iceberg, in any comment, ever, beyond "she's an Obama supporter" please do so. If you can point out that I "don't like" Iceberg's diary in a rational manner, please do so. If you can explain why Iceberg is the sole arbiter of whether or not "Obama didn't choose him" please do so, and please include Iceberg's own words "Obama requested Warren" in the further explanation of your definitive statement that "Obama can't uninvite him because he didn't invite him in the first place".

                    Your words: "You say Bush was horrible because he didn't listen to people with opposing views and then you go and do what you said you hate."

                    My words: "Obama's right that he's 'President to all of (us)', and that was central to my early disgust with Bush, before he showed his 'war criminal' side. Bush ruled as a one-sided ideological extremist, and told the rest of us to 'sit down and shut up'. I'm OK with Obama being 'inclusive', but there are limits. You can't be "inclusive" with people who believe that they're acting on behalf of God and therefore infallible. You can't "include" people who don't compromise..."

                    You ask me "if you're going to accuse me of things you should back it up. Least you be accused of making empty claims against me."

                    What "claims" had I made about you WHEN YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT? That you were being disingenuous by putting words into my mouth then asking me to defend THOSE Words, instead of my own?

                    This may be a good time to point out that in your comment history it quickly becomes apparent that you're used to telling other people what they think.

                    Then you go on to say you can't understand what I'm saying?

                    Jeebus.

                    It's obvious why. "God gave us two ears and one mouth so we can..."

                    When you're done explaining your semantic game of making things up that I said and then refuting them, maybe then you can address the central issue that I raised and repeated, and am now being asked to repeat again.

                    "...until I know what your stance is it's hard to prove anything."

                    I'll repeat:

                    By placing him (Warren) in such a symbolic position, however temporary, it sends the signal (to Warren's supporters AND detractors) that these uncompromising unconstitutional positions deserve to be heard.

                    Giving them a prominent position at the beginning gives them credibility they don't deserve.

                    What is it you're trying to "prove"?

                    "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

                    by Timbuk3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  okay (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm not making anything up.

                      You started with this:

                      There's an emerging opinion that this is no big deal. "There are other preachers, and the one giving the closing is a good guy", "Obama's just being 'inclusive'."

                      I say "bullshit". He shouldn't be given a seat at the table.

                      Then you immediately say this:

                      Obama's right that he's "President to all of (us)", and that was central to my early disgust with Bush, before he showed his "war criminal" side. Bush ruled as a one-sided ideological extremist, and told the rest of us to "sit down and shut up".

                      Now how is that not contradictory?

                      and then you say this

                      There are only two possible results when you deal with such people.

                      They'll take 100% of what they want.

                      They'll go away mad, complaining that you've only given "lip service" to them.

                      A far better plan is to kick them to the curb immediately, and let them work OPENLY from their position of hostility.

                      Which was what I was orignally started my first comment on.

                      And from there you seemingly go on to deny that you wrote that in later comments.

                      These are your words, complete and unadulterated.

                      •  This is not that hard to understand (0+ / 0-)

                        "Now how is that not contradictory?"

                        You need to keep reading.

                        I'm OK with Obama being "inclusive", but there are limits. You can't be "inclusive" with people who believe that they're acting on behalf of God and therefore infallible.

                        You're confusing "inclusive" with "willing to accept anything, no matter how abhorrent or repulsive". This is similar to a frequent mistake made by right wingers when they chide "liberals" about "tolerance". I don't, for example, "tolerate" pedophiles or wife-beaters. Similarly, I wouldn't work hard to elect a politician who promised me that he was going to "include" pedophiles and wife-beaters in his cabinet.

                        Warren is opposed to the constitution itself. The reason it's not my "hill to die on" is that it's not indisputable proof that Obama despises the constitution, too. It is, however, Obama extending a hand of friendship to someone who is, by his very nature, incapable of compromising. Hence my statement that he will either get burned by someone who expects to receive 100% of what he asks for, or having him (and his followers) eventually turn on him (Obama) with accusations that he was only giving them lip service.

                        "Doing My Part to Piss Off the Religious Right" - A sign held by a 10-year old boy on 9-24-05

                        by Timbuk3 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 11:34:06 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

      •  Obama did invite him. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timbuk3
  •  Lowry's speech at Mrs. King's funeral (8+ / 0-)

    was the single most important thing in getting me through the dispair of the Bush years. I watched and read it many times to remind myself that there was another America. He gets the last word and deserves it more than anyone I can think of.

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:00:46 AM PST

  •  Putting Lowery on stage with Warren (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slinkerwink, landrew, MJB, dss, Lopez99, melpomene1

    for the appearance of "balance" is reprehensible.  There is no need to "balance" the civil rights champion with a bigot.  I would agree that Lowery deserves more attention that does Warren, but the fact is Warren is given the honor of delivering the invocation.  I've had enough of the idea of being tolerant towards intolerance.

    Maturity is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything. - Kurt Vonnegut

    by Irishbeermonster on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:05:53 AM PST

  •  so....when and where... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    artmartin

    are non-Christians to be included?

  •  About clergy and prayers at inaugurations. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    artmartin, Shhs, Always Thinkin

    I understand the symbolism. I understand that a lot of people have to start and end everything with prayers and are presumptuous enough to think "God" is taking notes on what they're asking for.

    I understand that some religious leaders are inspiring to some people and at the same time offensive, a kick in the teeth to others. For that reason alone I'd much rather not see Warren's face at the inauguration.

    I have great admiration for Lowery, heard him speak up close once. I recognize that his life's work may, for him, have been inspired by his faith, but that means nothing to me. I'm inspired by his life's work, whatever moved him to it.

    So regarding who gives the opening and closing prayers for this shindig, I'm stating for the record that, as far as I'm concerned, that is, me, personally, I really don't give a shit.

    This is not what I thought I'd be when I grew up.

    by itzik shpitzik on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 05:30:44 AM PST

  •  ZZZZzzzzzzzz........ (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    John Clavis, NuttyProf

    All these preachers spouting their drivel is going to be a major buzzkill for the innaguration.  Hope Obama's people have the good sense have them on while the crowd is still arriving and using the toilets.

  •  I wouldn't have known about this man if not for (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shhs, ETF, mellowwild

    the OBSESSION with warren. I wonder where you guys and the media were when Obama went to his church during the election. i certainly did not hear about his homophobia, all i heard about was all the work he did in Africa for AIDS and poverty.

    could it be that we NEEDED him then to win, and now we are done with the idiot we are call him OUT?

    anyways, i am happy to hear about this pastor and would concerntrate on this FIRST, than on an idiot that is praying for what 2 minutes? when Obama start making HOMOPHOBIC policies like Clinton and Bush, CALL ME.

  •  After President Obama speaks no one will (6+ / 0-)

    remember what Mr Warren says. Unless he says somthing hateful, and he's too smart for that.
    Wonderful diary, Reverend Lowery speakes to my heart.I would suggest that all, christians and non christians, would do well to heed his words of understanding and grace.

  •  Thank you (4+ / 0-)

    For pointing this out. Remember Obama's pledge to bring people of all types together? Here's an example of that.

  •  Thanks (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dlh77489, amond1, mellowwild

    I thought this was just another diary about how wrong Obama is about this or that

    Your diary is about a man that can see over the pile of garbage that's printed, video tape & blasted on a radio !

    Thank You I learned of another great American reading your diary!

    ''Al-Zeidi is the man...He did what Arab leaders failed to do.''

    by eeff on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:24:11 AM PST

  •  okay, always love this kind of religious b.s.... (0+ / 0-)

    "God didn’t call us to judge. He called us to love... and when you love, you have no time to judge. The Bible says that when you judge, you will be judged. With the same measure you judge, you shall be judged and none of us wants to live with that."

    great, it's a nice though, but it's lip-service in the end. everyone is, and has to be, 'judgemental', just to get about life. besides, my own 'christian family' has no problem pointing at the freaky kids in the mall and giggling. otherwise they put up a pretty good 'pretend christian' bit.

    oh okay, okay - 'it's just kids they're laughing at'... no, it's not. this kind of 'i'm not judgemental' attitude pervades their lives, even as they judge. people and issues, big and small - they are judgemental.

    and you know what? being judgemental is just fine; we could not live our lives without at least have some capacity for decision-making. it's just that this kind of scripture-prose only feeds the hypocrisy... they're judgemental, but they think they aren't, and every time you call them on it they'll quote this stuff right back at you, as if that absolves them of it.

    sorry... just a thought. still whatever, yeah okay, he's nicer than rick. i'm not watching the inaugural for the prayers anyway.

  •  Speaking as an atheist... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phoenix Woman, lirtydies, mellowwild

    ... this guy is the kind of person who gives Christianity a GOOD name.

  •  Perhaps the contrast is the point n/t (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GeoGrl, Shhs, OrangeMike, mellowwild

    Everyone who doesn't deserve a holiday bonus is getting one.

    by Jonzee on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:05:51 AM PST

  •  I love how all these people who wouldn't (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rsmpdx, Shhs, OrangeMike, pinkbunny, mellowwild

    know oppression if it walked up and shook their hand are getting so outraged about Rick Warren.  

    All this righteous indignation is sickening.  

    If I believed in hell, I'd be apt to hope Rick would burn there.  And while I'd rather he not speak at the inauguration, I'm not going let it become my whole world.  

    And many people on this website need to grow up.  When other people (and here I'm refering to other Kossacks) don't share your particular view, the way to win them over doesn't involve childish name-calling and "fuck you's" and "bullshit."  You just make yourself look extemely stupid, and by the way, you prove that your no better than all the people on the right you claim to hate.  

    All the cries of "fuck you" and "bullshit" as counter-arguments reminds me a lot of O'Rielly and Limbaugh.

    "I, Barack Hussein Obama, do solemnly swear, that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States..."

    by dlh77489 on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:15:17 AM PST

  •  lovely. so will he or Warren be invocating? (0+ / 0-)

    dare I hope the former....?

  •  Why are we doing the right-wings job for them? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shhs, OrangeMike, mellowwild

    This is exactly why the far-right is not screaming 'OBAMA TAPS PRO GAY RIGHTS MINISTER LOWERY TO SPEAK AT INAUGURATION!. Why should they right attack Dems, when we are doing such a good job of doing it to ourselves. Both sides of the argument will be represented at the event. This is what unity looks like folks. This is what a president who is strong enough to stand with people with opposing views looks like. Not to mention the fact that not only is Obama talking the talk, but he is actually appointing openly gay members to his cabinet and posts.

    Jeez. We are going to continue shooting ourselves in the foot, helping the Repubs tear down Obama, and will be looking at a right wing White House in 2012.

    •  Or attack Sect. of Education on one point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mellowwild

      even  thought he is good or progressive on others (remember the gay school).  It is easy to always be in the opposition.  I think ppl need to go back and look at previous presidents (especially ones in difficult times).

      GOP = Godless opposition party We Hassle to make America a Vassal (state)

      by Shhs on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:14:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama: A president for ALL Americans... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rsmpdx, OrangeMike, mellowwild

    ...if there was one thing that President-elect Obama said immediately after winning the Nov. 4 election that struck a chord with me, it was his promise to be a president for ALL Americans.

    As progressives, we shouldn't forget the tragic mistake and injustice paid to to us and many other Americans by George Walker Bush and his gang of thugs. Immediately upon seizing power (literally, seizing, since they didn't actually win the election legitimately), they decided they were going to give a big middle finger to everyone but the most rabid radical right wing nutjobs whom he shamelessly pandered to to obtain and keep office.

    While the so-called "minister" (not according to my definition of what a minister/healer is) giving the invocation is objectionable to me in so many ways, people are reacting as if Obama named him to a cabinet poster or something.

    The fact is, that Obama's outreach to evangelicals in this most symbolic of ways, a one-time invocation which carries with it no political power of any sort, is just that, in my estimation.

    The fact that Obama's balanced it with Lowery is further proof that Obama means what he says when it comes to wanting to be a president for ALL Americans, not just some.

  •  I didn't remember that there was a closing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OrangeMike, mellowwild

    benediction.

    This makes a real difference, or should, to a lot of people.

    My only question is, why wasn't this brought to our attention a whole lot faster ?

    Thanks for the info !

    Let's get some Democracy for America

    by murphy on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:36:05 AM PST

    •  why wasn't this brought to our attention? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mellowwild

      Because we're harping on Warren, and we're still afraid to hype the anti-Warrens of the religious world who are on OUR side of the aisle. Because that would get us labeled TEH LIBRUL OH NOEZ.

      President-elect Barack Obama.

      by noabsolutes on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:39:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  because (0+ / 0-)

        having someone that is not a filthy bigot like Warren hardly balances it out.

        There is no legitimate counter balance to the kind of idiocy Warren represents.  

        Warren does not have a legitimate position on an issue where 'good people' can legitimately disagree.

        His filth was given a very prominent platform that legitimizes him and his sect.  An honor and reward for waging  war against LGBT families and communities.

        Having some other christian who isn't a filthy bigot has no baring on the Warren choice.

        •  Warren, while certainly not my idea of a pastor (0+ / 0-)

          of a church I would attend, does, in fact, talk about a lot of the stuff Jesus actually talked about-- as has been pointed out by various folks, I'm sure.

          Maybe it is possible to change hearts and minds by working with people on common concerns ?

          I have found that to be the case, and it appears that Obama believes that to be possible, too.

          Let's get some Democracy for America

          by murphy on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:02:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Brought to our attention?" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mellowwild

      It was on the schedule.
      But, the white gay boy bloggers and white gay boys who run HRC are all upset about Rick Warren.
      They could care less about a black civil rights hero.
      .

      •  Sorry, I hadn't seen the schedule (0+ / 0-)

        But let's not get into "white gay boys" and all that sort of stuff, please.

        Obama is about bringing us together, even though that may be a challenge for some of us who have very legitimate concerns and who might feel upset about some of the things that don't go precisely our way.

        One of the things he said up front is that he knows he's not going to be able to please everybody all of the time-- but that we have to work together.

        There is no choice but to work together, after all. The politics of division and the analysis Kos made in <Crashing the Gate> must be in the forefront of all that we undertake.

        We simply cannot allow ourselves to be divided at this time.

        Let's get some Democracy for America

        by murphy on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 01:28:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I am after 431 comments BUT (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, rsmpdx

    This really should have been reported YESTERDAY
    IN TANDEM with the front-page story and the diary
    condemning the Warren invocation.  The Warren story
    also should have mentioned the inclusion of the BAND.
    It reflected badly and wrongly on OBAMA when they
    ONLY reported the BAD side of the story.
    Obviously, CHRISTIANITY is about LOVING your enemies
    and turning the other cheek: INSIDE the context of
    THAT religion, we canNOT afford to be equally as judgmental of them as they are of us.  What has ACTUALLY happened really does look like Obama has LEARNED something compared to South Carolina, where he responded to criticism about including Donnie McClurkin by including A WHITE gay advocate.
    THIS time the counterweight is at least slightly more relevant.  Still, my complaint is that Lowery's reputation was already secure and that he is arguably about THE PREVIOUS generation's struggle: Obama STILL had the opportunity (BLOWN, BIG-TIME) to BLESS, to include, to EMPOWER, a black minister of THIS generation who is fighting THIS battle and who therefore NEEDED (Lowery doesn't) the support.

    The argument we are left with now is over whether including Warren was "constructive engagement" with the bad faction of the black church, under the assumption that contact and dialogue are the ONLY possible ways of ever bringing them around (and we do still need to bring them around), or it was just coddling&blessing bigotry.

    The road to hell has not YET been paved with Republicans, but it SHOULD be -- Corrected BumperSticker

    by ge0rge on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:38:14 AM PST

  •  Unity? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    audiored

    You can't have unity when you have one person who is anti-gay rights and another who is pro-gay rights.  at some point Obama is going to have to make moral choices.  You can't have it both ways on some issues.

    Still waiting for real change

    by noofsh on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 07:43:48 AM PST

  •  Seems to me Liberal's are very HARD to please (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    msdrown, Shhs, Amber6541, pinkbunny, mellowwild

    Obama hasn't taken office yet, but Rick Warren speaking at his inauguration is disappointing to thousands of the LGBT community. I'm not apart of that community, however, I believe they all do deserve the same amount of respect as any other human-Gay or Straight.

    I'm new to this website, I loved it since Obama decided to run for President. Positive engery was all around here, everyone felt(still does) like family.

    However, this place is slowly becoming a "BASH OBAMA" website. Please people don't let ONE PERSON destroy this great website, and also the reason we all voted for CHANGE.

    •  That's because the LGBT are being crapped on (0+ / 0-)

      These people are fighting for their rights; in some cases, fighting for their right to exist!  You expect them to be "easy to please"?  Why shouldn't they be outraged by the onslaught on their civil liberties?

      Nope, in this case, Obama really screwed up.

      Still waiting for real change

      by noofsh on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:29:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  when does building a team of rivals become (0+ / 0-)

    giving many of the prime positions of power to people that are against much of what you implied, if not said, that you stood for?

    when does keeping your enemy close become a government run by them?

    when does compromise become disrespect for all the accomplished people who have worked for what you implied, if not said, that you stood for?

    yes, i'll still be working to help Obama pass legislation that i agree with.  but i may not be as busy as i once thought.

  •  Libel Law Is Evil (0+ / 0-)

    Thanks for this reminder that Lowery is not only a hero of the Civil Rights Movement, but also of the civil liberties movement. Sadly, this diary embraces Lyons' terrible idea that libel law should be used to suppress criticism of the president. The only thing a libel suit by Bill Clinton would have done is cause him to lie under oath even earlier. Libel law is a terrible idea for everyone, and it only give power to the rich and powerful who can afford the lawyers.

    Obama Politics (www.obamapolitics.com)

    by JohnKWilson on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:03:15 AM PST

  •  If I remember correctly, Obama's emotions and (0+ / 0-)

    compassion leads him to encourging men to be strong and compassionate fathers and responsible husbands within heterosexual marriages. That doesn't mean he is discriminating against gays and lesbians. There is a difference, I believe, in making choices of what you want to put your emphasis and compassion into, and deducting from those choices discrimination of other issues of importance to other groups.

    To say that Obama discriminates the GLBT community by letting Rick Warren speak is IMHO a case of the GLBT community to take their own interests above all other interests out there in the world.

    Time to get back to your balanced common sense. I am not familiar with how far the rethoric of Rick Warren went, but I can't imagine it was on the order of "racist hate speech against the GLBT", I hope. If I am incorrect, I would like to see some transcripts of what he is preaching.

    I also wonder if any person, who doesn't actively support the civil rights of marriage for gays and lesbians can by default be declared a person who discriminates and hates gays and lesbians. This would mean that you can not be in support of heterosexual marriage without being at the same time discriminatory againt gay and lesbian marriage.
    Is that fair?

    I support heterosexual marriage and if a gay or lesbian couple absolutely wants to marry I would let them do what they want. It's not my business, but I wouldn't support and work for their interests more than I would support and work for the interests of heterosexual marriages.

    Darn, I think I am confused and the issue is too complicated for me.

    •  You are incorrect (0+ / 0-)

      Rick Warren: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

      Steven Waldman: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

      Rick Warren: Oh I do.  ...

      We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

      by tiponeill on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:22:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would need more context to say something (0+ / 0-)

        about the quote you gave, but my general question is, if I say I support monogamous heterosexual marriages, does that mean that I discriminate, by default, all people who live in polygamist marriages and all people who live in marriages between two gays or lesbians?

        I would say no, but it seems that other would call me homophobe for my personal preference and choice.

      •  actually reading it again I don't need more (0+ / 0-)

        context. Sorry.

  •  The story about Obama and Lowery (5+ / 0-)

    I heard this from one of our local Councilmen, who was at an Obama event last year.

    Obama had never met Lowery before, but Lowery attended this event for Obama when he was in the early stages of the campaign.  When Obama heard Lowery was in attendance, he asked to speak with him.

    Obama literally got on one knee in front of Lowery and thanked Joseph Lowery for all his work in the civil rights movement, and told him but for Lowery and all those who worked for change, Obama would not be here.

    Obamaponies made of rainbows would make ME happy.

    by wmtriallawyer on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:11:16 AM PST

  •  I just loved this diary (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, GeoGrl, mellowwild

    thank you, what a nice unlooked for gift.

  •  Great diary! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    I thought part of being president was to reach out from time to time to those whose views you may oppose on some occasions. I find it troubling all this bellyaching about Rick Warren (whose church I attended briefly when I lived in Orange County many years ago). What makes those who are bellyaching over Warren any different than George W. Bush and his folks who made a living of EXCLUDING those who held beliefs even slightly different from them?????

    PRESIDENT OBAMA (Don't you feel better already?)

    by alaprst on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:28:15 AM PST

  •  10 more pastors (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tiponeill

    would only be 19 more pastors.

    Rick Warren preachers division, hate, and resort to lies.

    No one in a public position, no Democrat nor republican, should be promoting this man's words. It is expecially disgusting to see him honored by calling upon him to ask for God's blessing.

    This is mocking the idea of Christianity. I'm sorry to see Democrats willing to push this man on the American stage.

  •  Revered Lowery is excellent choice!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, mellowwild

    Thanks for great diary that puts things in prespective.

    McCain's economic adviser helped UBS like he helped Enron

    by mscharizmaa on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 08:42:52 AM PST

  •  Thanks for diary, I feel better now. Youtube (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    has fun, inspiring videos of Joseph Lowery. Glad to get acquainted with him.

    I didn't recognize his name but I remember SCLC and their great work in the Civil Rights Era.

    I'm enjoying his youtube "Good Crazy" theme........like Harriet Tubman, etc.

    Media Reform Action Link http://stopbigmedia.com/

    by LNK on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:04:16 AM PST

  •  Remember, the benediction will be the LAST (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    words heard at the inaugural.  Rick Warren's words will be heard and appreciated by the Right Wings Christianists, but they will soon be forgotten after the swearing in/oath and Barack's speach.

    This will be okay, and it is part of the whole" .. . for those Americans who did not vote for me, I am your President too".  We MUST find a way to unite or we WILL die.

    •  Unite? Not on this issue! (0+ / 0-)

      Sorry, this an issue with only one side as far as I am concerned.  

      Obama would have been best to steer clear of controversy rather than trying to be "morally inclusive".

      Still waiting for real change

      by noofsh on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:27:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Obama failed to reach out to the racists and anti (0+ / 0-)

    semites.

    He could have "reached out" more and included some racists and jew haters and been even more inclusive.

    Yet somehow, he is only balanced and inclusive when it comes to anti-gay bigots.

    What opportunities to offend others are being missed

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:18:53 AM PST

  •  good job obama (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    i look forward to the inauguration with both rw and jl,this country needs alot of prayers.  as long as these guys are not making any policy decisions, i say good job pe obama.

  •  You don't send a doctor to heal the well. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm very disappointed in the Warren choice, but I'm having to take this kind of a stance.  Obama is not Bush, and we have to remember that that's still important.

    The Obama/Biden Inaugural -- the exact moment when the world goes from gray to colorful.

    by alkatt on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:40:42 AM PST

  •  Awesome Diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    msdrown, mellowwild

    This puts things in perspective.  I am frankly getting really pissed at the so called "progressives" trying to dictate to Obama how to be inclusive.  Especially when their definition of inclusive requires exclusion.  I have pulled back from working with many "progressives" here in California for that same reason.  
    There were Christian Conservatives who voted for Obama whose views may differ from his, but they believed in his vision of change and turning this country around.  
    I am frankly thinking of doing more work with those individuals than the more "progressives" because they appear to be the most open minded as of late.

  •  GREAT diary (0+ / 0-)

    It is nice to see at least something done right. I wish Warren wasn't opening, and this wonderful human doesn't make up for it, but it is nice to see.

  •  I hope Lowry (0+ / 0-)

    uses the moment well, to underline the ALL part of liberty and justice for all this nation is supposed to stand for.

    If he does, that will go a long way to undo the lying reactionary extremist pretending to be  a Christian that Warren is.

  •  Just to add some perspective... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mellowwild

    here's a wonderful diary by wmtriallawyer that slipped through the cracks:

    The Story of Barack Obama and Rev. Joseph Lowery

    Please, if you're reading this, get thee to that diary now!

  •  A bigot and a normal person is not balance. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eric K

    I agree with your diary, and I'm not objecting to anything in particular. I just want to say, though, that no matter how not-evil this second guy is, he can't "cancel out" the first guy.

    Put a pig together with a saint and the room will still smell like shit.

  •  If they can't share the same stage. . . (0+ / 0-)

    then what's changed?  I don't get how people could have been paying attention to Obama's campaign for 2 years and be surprised at this pick.  The President-elect went to this man's church twice; he specifically talked about reaching out to evangelicals during the campaign.

    WTF?

  •  Choice of Lowery doesn't excuse Warren's (0+ / 0-)

    Obama has yet to be sworn in and I am deeply disappointed in his choice of Rick Warren. In light to Warren's support for Prop 8 and his comparisons of gay people to molesters this is a terrible slap in the face to so many gay Americans. It makes me question his commitment to gay issues of equality.

    "Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." George Washington

    by Probus on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:02:56 PM PST

  •  I have seen no proof that... (0+ / 0-)

    Lowery supports same-sex marriage. The quote in the diary shows that he embraces human rights and equality.  Most opponents to same-sex marriage say this. They just believe that equal protection does not require a redefinition of marriage. Obama himself opposes same-sex marriage -- but proclaims his support for human rights and equality for all.

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