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A Christian response to the the hate-mongers and those who attack Muslims and the Cordova Mosque.  

The Rev. Dr. Michael Kinnamon, a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) clergyman and a long-time educator and ecumenical leader, is the ninth General Secretary of the National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA. The NCC is the ecumenical voice of America's Orthodox, Protestant, Anglican, historic African American, evangelical and traditional peace churches. These 36 communions have 45 million faithful members in 100,000 congregations in all 50 states.

Today, millions of Muslims are subjected to thoughtless generalizations, open discrimination and outright hostility because of the actions of a tiny minority whose violent acts defy the teachings of Mohammed.

How will we explain our ignorance and our compliance to our grandchildren?

The full statement below.

Cordoba House and Mosque at Ground Zero is a gesture of neighborliness and healing

Editor's Note. Dr. Kinnamon's statement on Cordova House and Mosque at New York's Ground Zero is available to you for use and distribution as you see fit.

For thousands of families, Ground Zero in southern Manhattan is holy ground. Thousands lost someone they love in the terror attacks of September 11, 2001, and hundreds of thousands know someone who was directly or indirectly scarred by the collapse of the World Trade Center. The emotional investment in Ground Zero cannot be overestimated.

That is precisely why Ground Zero must be open to the religious expression of all people whose lives were scarred by the tragedy: Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, and more. And Muslims.

No one knows how many Muslims died on 9/11, but they number in the hundreds. One was Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New York City police cadet, emergency medical technician and medical student. When Salman disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials who knew of his Islamic faith sought him out among his family to question him about the attacks. His family lived with the onus of suspicion for six months until Salman’s body was identified. He was found near the North Tower with his EMT bag beside him, situated where he could help people in need.

The point of this now famous story is simple. Not every Muslim at Ground Zero was a terrorist, and not every Muslim was a hero. The vast majority were like thousands of others on September 11: victims of one of the most heinous events of our times.

But for the family of Salman Hamdani and millions of innocent Muslims, the tragedy has been exacerbated by the fact that so many of the rest of us have formed our opinions about them out of prejudice and ignorance of the Muslim faith.

It is that narrow-minded intolerance that has led to the outcry against the building of Cordoba House and Mosque near Ground Zero. It is the same ignorance that has led many to the outrageous conclusion that all Muslims advocate hatred and violence against non-Muslims. It is the same ignorance that has led to hate crimes and systematic discrimination against Muslims, and to calls to burn the Qur’an.

On the eve of Ramadan on August 11, the National Council of Churches, its Interfaith Relations Commission and Christian participants in the National Muslim-Christian Initiative, issued a strong call for respect for our Muslim neighbors.

"Christ calls us to ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ (Matthew 22:39," the statement said. "It is this commandment, more than the simple bonds of our common humanity, which is the basis for our relationship with Muslims around the world."

The statement supported building Cordoba House "as a living monument to mark the tragedy of 9/11 through a community center dedicated to learning, compassion, and respect for all people."

Now the National Council of Churches reaffirms that support and calls upon Christians and people of faith to join us in that affirmation.

The alternative to that support is to engage in a bigotry that will scar our generation in the same way as bigotry scarred our forebears.

Three-hundred years ago, European settlers came to these shores with a determination to conquer and settle at the expense of millions of indigenous peoples who were regarded as sub-human savages. Today, we can’t look back on that history without painful contrition.

One-hundred and fifty years ago, white Americans subjugated black Africans in a cruel slavery that was justified with Bible proof-texts and a belief that blacks were inferior to whites. Today, we look back on that history with agonized disbelief.

Sixty years ago, in a time of war and great fear, tens of thousands of Japanese-Americans were deprived of their property and forced into detention camps because our grandparents feared everyone of Japanese ancestry. Today that decision is universally regarded as an unconscionable mistake and a blot on American history.

Today, millions of Muslims are subjected to thoughtless generalizations, open discrimination and outright hostility because of the actions of a tiny minority whose violent acts defy the teachings of Mohammed.

How will we explain our ignorance and our compliance to our grandchildren?

It’s time to turn away from ignorance and embrace again the words of Christ: Love your neighbor as yourself.

In that spirit, we welcome the building of Cordoba House and Mosque near Ground Zero.

Michael Kinnamon
General Secretary
National Council of Churches

National Council of Churches, USA

Glenn Beck and the Republican party do not own or seem to even understand Christianty.

Originally posted to TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (199+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Renee, JekyllnHyde, TXdem, Chi, ogre, Iddybud, tikkun, alicia, Shockwave, cotterperson, expatjourno, bronte17, 88kathy, understandinglife, MD patriot, MillieNeon, chuckvw, sngmama, fumie, bustacap, wader, revsue, DustyMathom, TexDem, Dallasdoc, BoxerDave, BMarshall, dwahzon, AbsurdEyes, Greg in TN, zerelda, Silverbird, KayCeSF, tomjones, vacantlook, dss, CPT Doom, Bluesee, SherwoodB, LostInTexas, democracy inaction, PBen, kaye, reflectionsv37, Dr Squid, Pam from Calif, Mr X, Sara R, aaraujo, blue jersey mom, deep, Geekesque, neroden, Snud, jay23, ThatSinger, lgmcp, third Party please, Paul Ferguson, Jennifer Clare, Debbie in ME, sherlyle, HoundDog, Gorette, Dvalkure, kestrel9000, KozmoD, bleeding heart, el cid, soccergrandmom, MBNYC, TooFolkGR, zhimbo, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, emsprater, punditician, louavul, Nulwee, One Pissed Off Liberal, out of left field, lightfoot, nipit, Cottagerose, ColoTim, EdSF, Outrider, Sydserious, Mary Mike, gustynpip, joyful, joedemocrat, Unbozo, HCKAD, getlost, BaritoneWoman, jnhobbs, millwood, OIL GUY, Rumarhazzit, uciguy30, keikekaze, sable, aseth, Predictor, Mighty Ike, MKinTN, Edger, wayoutinthestix, Unique Material, monroematt, lineatus, jamess, beltane, royce, Cassandra Waites, mofembot, Seamus D, Gemina13, o the umanity, luckylizard, BYw, Quilldriver, Guadalupe59, In her own Voice, dmhlt 66, 207wickedgood, bluebelle7, MrsTarquinBiscuitbarrel, maggiejean, 1BQ, in2mixin, Fonsia, greengemini, AntonBursch, seanwright, Carol in San Antonio, maryabein, Hot2na, DClark4129, allep10, kevinpdx, RadioGirl, jfromga, Livvy5, Tommymac, Larsstephens, Amber6541, smileycreek, brentbent, angry liberaltarian, awcomeon, marabout40, KroneckerD, Mokurai, FogCityJohn, blueyescryinintherain, jethrock, catwho, fidellio, CcVenussPromise, Eddie L, NY brit expat, Lady Libertine, elginblt, juturna, Funkygal, washunate, roystah, elengul, Dahankster, wwjjd, mallyroyal, verdeo, gobears2000, redlum jak, Front Toward Enemy, BlueJessamine, m00finsan, soothsayer99, RadicalRoadRat, incognita, dle2GA, IL JimP, SilentBrook, dibsa, daveusf, blue aardvark, SoCalSal, Sunspots, zenox, kev9100, moonpal, lol chikinburd, Regina in a Sears Kit House, Leroy the Roadie, yawnimawke, James Robinson, angry marmot, Eric Nelson

    Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

    by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:28:05 AM PDT

  •  I'm not happy with this: (33+ / 0-)

    That is precisely why Ground Zero must be open to the religious expression of all people whose lives were scarred by the tragedy: Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, and more. And Muslims.

    I would prefer the Trade Center remain what it was, a wholly secular part of the City. Not least because there were presumably also hundreds of agnostics among the dead.

    That said, yes, how to explain the explosion of intolerant douchebaggery we've seen in the last few weeks really escapes me.

    Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.

    by MBNYC on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:35:13 AM PDT

  •  How will we explain it? (7+ / 0-)

    The same way we have always explained things like this: We let fear, anger and hate get the best of us because it took too much effort to fight those who preach these emotions.

    You're not from New York City, you're from Rotherham So get off the bandwagon, and put down the handbook

    by kev9100 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:36:32 AM PDT

  •  The Sad Bit Is (5+ / 0-)

    That's the same question the haters are asking.

    "We have to stop the Muslims now, or what will we tell our Grandchildren after they take over?"

    The problem with co-opting a religious message--for good or for ill--is that when it's rooted entirely in fourth or fifth hand anecdotal metaphors and thousands of years worth of "telephone game" style oral tradition, there's enough murk in there that you can suit it to multiple messages.

    Which is not UNLIKE the struggle within Islam between the people who are trying to "correctly" interpret the Divine Truth.

    Kudos to this guy for calling intolerance when he sees it, but intolerance and the natural evolution from there into hatred and eventually violence are not merely a few turds in the punch-bowl of "love thy neighbor" but a NECESSARY and UNAVOIDABLE consequence of religion.  For more evidence see: All of history forever.

    Sam Harris' "Letter to a Christian Nation" is superb at illustrating this.

    •  I disagree. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Predictor, SoCalSal, effervescent

      Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

      by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:39:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  With Which Bit? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000, Deep Texan

        That religious messages are easily co-optable by multiple sides in a disagreement?  That historicaly religious differences have led to intolerance, hatred, and eventually violence?  That "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris is a good book/

        I didn't think I was saying anything particularly controversial.

        •  You were. (9+ / 0-)

          "a NECESSARY and UNAVOIDABLE consequence of religion"

          I disagree on this, but you are welcome to beleive what you wish.

          People misuse all sorts of idea systems.  I find Sam Harris boring.  He's about where I was when I was 12 years old and rejected religion.

          But this diary is not about atheism vrs. various faith systems.

          Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

          by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:45:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with TooFolk (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lgmcp, blueoasis, TooFolkGR, ColoTim, TomP

            while noting the unquestionably positive intent of the letter writer, operating, as he must, within the confines of his belief system.
            Or, put shorter: A for effort.
            We got a lady down the block who is a devout Christian and her car is plastered with bumper stickers delivering messages of peace and social justice.
            I like Christians like that.
            I'm not one of them...but I like them, and I wish there were more of them and less of the other kind.
            For every one of those, there's one less acolyte of Pat Robertson, John Hagee, and James Dobson.

            This is the world we live in/ And these are the hands we're given/Use them and let's start trying/To make it a place worth living in.

            by kestrel9000 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:51:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I hear what you are saying. (6+ / 0-)

              Spiritual beliefs and religion seem to be a big part of being human, though.  

              I am far more sympathetic to religion and religious beliefs than I have been most of my life.

              For every Pat Robertson, there is a MLK, Jr., or Phillip Berigan.  

              Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

              by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:55:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I hope that's true (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis, TooFolkGR, TomP

                It just seems like the Robertsons and Dobsons make better copy for the corporatists.
                Look at Robertson, or Dobson, vs. MLK or Berigan.
                Whose agenda is more likely to coopt someone to vote against their own interests?
                See, they get bitter...and they cling......
                ...well.
                Poor Obama. I've never seen someone get so lambasted for saying something so off-the cuff that was so absolutely fucking correct.
                They cling to the things that they know will never be taken from them.
                Not by John Mccain, Barack Obama, or anyone else.

                Tax the rich, feed the poor, until there are no rich no more.

                by kestrel9000 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:00:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I Would Say For Every (4+ / 0-)

                Thousand Pat Robertsons, there is an MLK Jr or a Phillip Berigan, and I would further say that the reason MLK Jr et. al. come to mind is that they rose and objected to the mainstream evil that was being committed in the name of their religion i.e., that was the problem in the first place.

                The reason this article exists for you to like it in the first place is that Christianity and Islam exist as "enemy religions" and someone can come forth and say, "No, they're not enemies, we should love them."

                If people were occasionally declaring war, committing mass murder, and denying others their constitutional rights over which NFL Football team they liked the best, there would be no substantive difference in the discussion.  But people don't do that.

                As you say yourself, I respect your difference opinion.

          •  Actually it's a consequence of tribalism (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Paul Ferguson

            And religion is just one way that tribes can be created. It is the worst part of human nature that a) we group people by various characteristics and b) we immediately consider any group to which we belong to be more worthy of "stuff" - money, land, power, glory - than any other group.

            It was this tendency that the rabbi Jesus of Nazareth fought so hard against - the Sermon on the Mount and the parable of the Good Samaritan being the best-known examples of this teaching. Sadly, those are lost on the bigots who are using both religion and nationality (do conservatives even consider Muslim citizens to be Americans?) to gain political power through prejudice. It is a old tactic, and one that religion only co-opted; it did not create that tactic.

            The speed with which someone tells you they're a Christian is inversely proportional to the probability they'll act like one.

            by CPT Doom on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:55:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Uhhhhhhh (0+ / 0-)

      There are more extant copies of, say, Paul's letters than there are of Julius Caesar's account of his Gaul campaign.

      No one really questions the accuracy of Caesar's writings, but people love to play games with the NT which is far - far - better documented.

      Go figure.

      In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

      by blue aardvark on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:29:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Glad to see some mainstream Christian voices (24+ / 0-)

    speak up for fairness.  This atheist appreciates it when Christians defend the best parts of their creed.

    "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

    by lgmcp on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:37:11 AM PDT

    •  Absolutely - this is really the best way to fight (8+ / 0-)

      this - exposing the hypocrisy.

      "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth". Albert Einstein

      by Sydserious on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:46:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it's weak tea (2+ / 0-)

      No naming names, no calling out the Christian right directly as un-Christian.  This kind of weak response to right-wing zealotry is why the right owns the Christian "brand" in America today.

      This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

      by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:33:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Chastising your allies (0+ / 0-)

        for being insufficiently fiery, isn't highly recommended as a technique for coalition-building.

        "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

        by lgmcp on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:39:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  and allies who don't fight (2+ / 0-)

          aren't really allies worth having.

          Coalition-building is only a valuable strategy when all coalition members are willing to get their hands dirty.  Otherwise it's a waste of time and effort.

          1 Friend willing to throw-down when 3 punks pick a fight with you is better than 5 "friends" who aren't willing to throw a punch.

          This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

          by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:19:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The allies I'm looking for (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SoCalSal

            don't have to get involved in assault and battery.  All they mainly have to do is show up and pull the right lever every other November.

            "The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function." -- Edward Teller

            by lgmcp on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:27:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Voting is a proxy for violence (2+ / 0-)

              not a proxy for debate.  You don't win if your right, you just win if you outnumber the other guys.

              When you vote, you are exercising political authority, you're using force. And force my friends is violence. The supreme authority from which all other authorities are derived.

              If the majority isn't willing, implicitly or explicitly, to back up it's will with force, then the minority knows they can flaunt it, and they will.

              This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

              by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:38:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Is this fairness (0+ / 0-)

        Selected parts of Muhammad’s  teachings from the Quran

      As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. [...] In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. (2:6-10)

      And Allah's is the direction of the way, and some (roads) go not straight. And had He willed He would have led you all aright. (16:9)

      Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk. Such are they whose hearts and ears and eyes Allah hath sealed. And such are the heedless. Assuredly in the Hereafter they are the losers. (16:107-109)

      As for him who disbelieveth, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the doom of Fire - a hapless journey's end! (2:126)
      He whom Allah causeth to go astray, thou (O Muhammad) wilt not find a way for him: O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you? (4:143-144)

      Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.(4:168-169)
      How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them. No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers. (7:4-5)

      Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. Do not fight wars of aggression. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers. (2:190-193)

      They ask thee (O Muhammad) of the spoils of war. Say: The spoils of war belong to Allah and the messenger, so keep your duty to Allah, and adjust the matter of your difference, and obey Allah and His messenger, if ye are (true) believers. (8:1)

      O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. And thou seest those in whose heart is a disease race toward them, saying: We fear lest a change of fortune befall us. And it may happen that Allah will vouchsafe (unto thee) the victory, or a commandment from His presence. Then will they repent them of their secret thoughts. (5:51-52)

      O Ye who believe! Choose not for guardians such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah if ye are true believers. (5:57)

      Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evil-speaking and their devouring of illicit gain ? Verily evil is their handiwork. (5:63)

      It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire. (9:113)

      Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren or their clan. As for such, He hath written faith upon their hearts and hath strengthened them with a Spirit from Him, and He will bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. They are Allah's party. Lo! is it not Allah's party who are the successful? (58:22)

      O ye who believe! Choose not My enemy and your enemy for allies. Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve in that truth which hath come unto you, driving out the messenger and you because ye believe in Allah, your Lord ? If ye have come forth to strive in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them not friendship). Do ye show friendship unto them in secret, when I am Best Aware of what ye hide and what ye proclaim ? And whosoever doeth it among you, he verily hath strayed from the right way. (60:1)

      As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (5:38)

      The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment. The adulterer shall not marry save an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress none shall marry save an adulterer or an idolater. All that is forbidden unto believers. And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accept their testimony - They indeed are evil-doers - Save those who afterward repent and make amends. (For such) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.(24:2-5)

      O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth. (9:73-74)

      Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers. (9:14)

      Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain. (47:4)

      Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (9:3-5)

      Woe unto each sinful liar, Who heareth the revelations of Allah recited unto him, and then continueth in pride as though he heard them not. Give him tidings of a painful doom. And when he knoweth aught of Our revelations he maketh it a jest. For such there is a shameful doom. Beyond them there is hell, and that which they have earned will naught avail them, nor those whom they have chosen for protecting friends beside Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom. This is guidance. And those who disbelieve the revelations of their Lord, for them there is a painful doom of wrath. (45:7-11)

      Those who deny the Scripture and that wherewith We send Our messengers. But they will come to know, When carcans are about their necks and chains. They are dragged Through boiling waters; then they are thrust into the Fire. (40:70-72)

      Nay, but they deny (the coming of) the Hour, and for those who deny (the coming of) the Hour We have prepared a flame. When it seeth them from afar, they hear the crackling and the roar thereof. And when they are flung into a narrow place thereof, chained together, they pray for destruction there. (25:11-13)
      The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:33-34)

      As for those who disbelieve, lo! if all that is in the earth were theirs, and as much again therewith, to ransom them from the doom on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them. Theirs will be a painful doom. They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom. (5:36-37)

      And forsake those who take their religion for a pastime and a jest, and whom the life of the world beguileth. Remind (mankind) hereby lest a soul be destroyed by what it earneth. It hath beside Allah no protecting ally nor intercessor, and though it offer every compensation it will not be accepted from it. Those are they who perish by their own deserts. For them is drink of boiling water and a painful doom, because they disbelieved. (6:70)

      God has cursed the unbelievers, and prepared for them a Blaze, therein to dwell for ever; they shall find neither protector nor helper. (33:64)

      O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (9:28)

      God has promised the hypocrites, men and women, and the unbelievers, the fire of Gehenna, therein to dwell forever. That is enough for them; God has cursed them; and there awaits them a lasting chastisement. (9.69)

      Say: 'The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.' Surely We have prepared for the evildoers a fire, whose pavilion encompasses them; if they call for succour, they will be succoured with water like molten copper, that shall scald their faces - how evil a potion, and how evil a resting place! (18:28)

      If thou couldst see how the angels receive those who disbelieve, smiting faces and their backs and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning! (8:50)

      Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment. (9:68)

      We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers. Lo! this Qur'an guideth unto that which is straightest, and giveth tidings unto the believers who do good works that theirs will be a great reward. And that those who believe not in the Hereafter, for them We have prepared a painful doom. (17:8-10)

      We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (18:29)

      The young man who has not wept is a savage, and the old man who will not laugh is a fool. George Santayana

      by Bobjack23 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 06:43:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks, TomP. (9+ / 0-)

    In my view, the NCC is absolutely right on this.

  •  I'll blame the Theists n/t (2+ / 0-)
  •  And The Onion nails it again (19+ / 0-)

    Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

    SALINA, KS—Local man Scott Gentries told reporters Wednesday that his deliberately limited grasp of Islamic history and culture was still more than sufficient to shape his views of the entire Muslim world.

    Gentries, 48, said he had absolutely no interest in exposing himself to further knowledge of Islamic civilization or putting his sweeping opinions into a broader context of any kind, and confirmed he was "perfectly happy" to make a handful of emotionally charged words the basis of his mistrust toward all members of the world's second-largest religion.

    "I learned all that really matters about the Muslim faith on 9/11," Gentries said in reference to the terrorist attacks on the United States undertaken by 19 of Islam's approximately 1.6 billion practitioners. "What more do I need to know to stigmatize Muslims everywhere as inherently violent radicals?"

    Nice job as usual, TomP!

    This ain't no party. This ain't no disco. This ain't no foolin' around!

    by Snud on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:54:20 AM PDT

  •  Great diary Tom - thanks for bringing us some (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    alicia, TomP

    good news.

    "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth". Albert Einstein

    by Sydserious on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:03:30 PM PDT

  •  I would like to thank the Reverend (15+ / 0-)

    for that statement from the bottom of my athiest heart. It is really important I think to reclaim Christ's teachings from the lunatics that have appropriated his name, just as al Qaeda has stolen the name and distorted the teachings of Mohammed.  

    We have only just begun and none too soon.

    by global citizen on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:09:58 PM PDT

  •  Fortunately, our grandchildren probably (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, ThAnswr, Eric Nelson

    won't care.  They'll be content to do better.

    The Constitution is not a menu for an exclusive diner.

    by hannah on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:16:33 PM PDT

  •  Great diary. n/t (4+ / 0-)

    Barack Obama: Ignores his legal obligation to prosecute people who tortured prisoners to death. Good at photo ops, though.

    by expatjourno on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:25:33 PM PDT

  •  How have you explained it so far? (4+ / 0-)

    I've spent most of my life watching mainstream Christianity flinch from confronting the zealots of the right.  You let them get away with demonizing homosexuals and liberals for decades now, why should their campaign against Muslims finally rouse you to action?

    Face it, the the zealots of the right are the public face of Christianity tin America today.  The own the Christian "brand" because "moderate Christians" like you let them take it, over thirty years ago.  

    I respect that you're trying to stick up for the downtrodden here, but your a day late and a dollar short.  Frankly weak-tea statements invoking "love your neighbor as you love yourself" aren't going to cut it.  Until "moderate Christians" stand up to publicly denounce the Christian right, by name, as un-Christian, then I see no reason to take you any more seriously than I take them.

    This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

    by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:27:38 PM PDT

    •  The zealots are not. (4+ / 0-)

      Millions of people go to church every Sunday and they do not share the fundamentalists beliefs.

      For example, the ELCA will marry GLBT folks and they canb be clergy.  Those are Lutherans.

      You paint with a broad brush.

      Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

      by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:31:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  A broad brush? (3+ / 0-)

        So what if millions of decent people go to church every Sunday.  So what if Lutherans let gays marry and be clergy.

        Turn on a TV and the faces of American Christianity are the bible-thumping, xenophobic zealots of the right.  I didn't create the situation.  I didn't let them take over the Christian brand.  Moderate Christians did that.

        I'm just telling you how it is.  If you don't like it, then change it.  Stage protests outside their churches denouncing them and their hate and their ignorance as un-Christian.  Call them out by name and shame them publicly for perverting the message and defiling the legacy of your savior.

        But you won't do that will you?  No, you're too tolerant and forgiving to pick a fight like that.  Which is why they own the brand, and you don't.  

        This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

        by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:42:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're not telling me (5+ / 0-)

          how it is.

          As for your insults, you do not know me.  

          Who are you to tell anyone what to do?  Stage your own protests.

          Your bigotry is offensive.

          Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

          by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:51:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  you're right about one thing (3+ / 0-)

            I'm not telling you "how it is" so much as telling you how it looks to those who don't consider themselves part of Christianity in this country.

            And "insults"?  I'd thought being called "too tolerant and forgiving" would be taken as a compliment.  

            As for my "bigotry", well maybe you've got a point.  I do paint Christians with a broad brush, and that's not very fair.  But keep in mind that over the course of my life I've watched Right-wing Christianity fuel a political movement that has wrecked my country.  And I watched mainstream Christians let them do it.  

            I watched good people hold their tongues in the face of hateful behavior which I had been taught as child was deeply un-Christian.  They held silent in the name of tolerance, and forgiveness, and inclusivity.  They held silent because they didn't believe they had the right to say what was truly christian and what wasn't.  But regardless of their motives, they held silent in the face of evil.

            So maybe, just maybe, I've got the right to be a little bigoted.  After all, when you stand up and proclaim your Christianity, with out denouncing the right as unchristian, then you stand up to counted along side those people.  The people who are the public face of your faith wrecked my country, and from where I'm sitting people like you let them do it.  I've got the right to be angry about that.  

            This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

            by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:09:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The real Christians get shouted down (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      You have to go and look for them. I have found lots. Your ignorance is no more the standard of truth than Glenn Beck's. (Mine, either. I keep having to learn things every day. As Einstein said, only the Universe and ignorance are infinite. And he wasn't sure about the Universe.)

      Busting the Dog Whistle code.

      by Mokurai on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:39:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Problem Is (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000, blueoasis, ColoTim
        The sole requirement for being one of "The Real Christians" is calling yourself one.
        •  They own the brand (0+ / 0-)

          but they only own it because mainstream Christians refuse to stand up and say "no we're the Real Christians and you're just hate mongers."  

          This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

          by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:49:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The point is that you have to "look for them" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Fixed Point Theorem

        Moderate Christians have let themselves be shouted down by right-wing zealots for decades.  And allowing the ascension of the right as the face of Christianity in America is one of the biggest moral failings of mainstream American Christians.   I know that most Christians in this country aren't fundamentalist zealots. I also know that it doesn't matter, because it's the zealots who wield the most influence.  It's the zealots who own the brand, because good, decent, mainstream Christians let them take it over.

        This country does not have the luxury to entertain idiocy as if it is reasonable. --Digby

        by Thought Crime on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:46:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  "ground Zero" references irrlevant (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silverbird, kestrel9000, leema, stunvegas

    since they are bulding the community cetner at a former Men's warehouse 2 blocks away

  •  Meh... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Big Tex, TooFolkGR

    That is precisely why Ground Zero must be open to the religious expression of all people whose lives were scarred by the tragedy: Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, and more. And Muslims.

    What about atheists and agnostics? Do they get a seat at the table too?

    Personally, if I HAD to choose a religion, it certainly wouldn't be one that discriminates against women and homosexuals.

    Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day ~ Harry S. Truman

    by HairyTrueMan on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:42:53 PM PDT

    •  If You HAD to Choose A Religion (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Big Tex, blueoasis, HairyTrueMan

      It wouldn't matter which one you chose.  The fact that you don't have to choose one is the only reason they're worth keeping around.

    •  Are you aware of (6+ / 0-)
      Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA)?

      http://www.elca.org/...

      The 2009 Churchwide Assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) voted today to open the ministry of the church to gay and lesbian pastors and other professional workers living in committed relationships.

      They also will marrry gays and lesbians.

      As for atheists, yes, they have a seat at the table. Go build an atheist palce, like an ethical society there.  I'll defend it.

       

      Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

      by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:48:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're actually looking for a church... (0+ / 0-)

        Got a baby coming any day and we want to get him baptized.  We also want to teach him right from wrong, and I think a religion can help.

        Thanks for the info Tom.

        Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day ~ Harry S. Truman

        by HairyTrueMan on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:56:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I find that really interesting. (3+ / 0-)

          So, "a" religion would help him know right from wrong, but you don't know what church to join? So you need to go through and find the church that best fits your own existing beliefs,and join it. That way the church can teach its values (which are yours, since that's why you picked it) with the force of religion behind them. Why don't you just skip the middleman and teach your child right from wrong yourself?

          "I wish you luck on not hating your parents for mixing up such an unthinkable person." --The frickin´ HP--

          by McWaffle on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:59:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fear of God dude... (0+ / 0-)

            But don't worry, we also plan to teach him right from wrong.

            Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day ~ Harry S. Truman

            by HairyTrueMan on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:04:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Can't rec this comment strongly enough. This (4+ / 0-)

            bizarre idea that kids can learn right from wrong only by going to church boggles my mind.  To think of someone being an atheist and then searching for a church to have their kid baptized in is giving me a headache.  

            "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

            by gustynpip on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:22:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh jeeze... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              angry marmot

              My wife and her family are Catholic and the baptizing is for them. I convinced her to look at Episcopal churches, but that's as far as my influence goes.

              And yes, I do think that religion can teach right from wrong. And so do billions of other people.

              Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day ~ Harry S. Truman

              by HairyTrueMan on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:31:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That's actually my exact background. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis, HairyTrueMan

                Baptized Episcopalian to put on a show for the relatives. Hasn't taught me right from wrong though, my parents did that without once mentioning God. I guess it's a good insurance policy though, just in case, eh?

                "I wish you luck on not hating your parents for mixing up such an unthinkable person." --The frickin´ HP--

                by McWaffle on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:37:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  LOL! Billions of people believe in god, too, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Fixed Point Theorem
                so I guess they must be right and us atheists, who are very much in the minority, are wrong.  Millions believed the earth is flat and the sun goes around the earth.

                Funny, I never realized before that the number of people believing something is proof it's true.

                Really, feel free to baptize your kid however you want.  It just struck me as quite ironic that an atheist would be depending on a religion to teach their kid right from wrong.  As though religions have been terribly successful at that so far.  Glen Beck would be just the latest example.

                "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                by gustynpip on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:39:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Could you squeeze a little more straw man... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blueoasis

                  and red herring into your response?

                  Clearly, your parents didn't teach you any manners. Perhaps you should travel upstairs from their basement and talk to them about it.

                  Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day ~ Harry S. Truman

                  by HairyTrueMan on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:54:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wow. Why are you so touchy on the subject? If (0+ / 0-)
                    you want to baptize your kids, go for it.  You don't need my approval.  The fact that I find it humorous is not that big a deal.  Nor is the fact that I find people's belief in a supreme being silly a big deal.  People are constantly acting as though anyone who doesn't is both stupid and evil and I don't let that offend me.  I think you're a little sensitive.

                    "If you trust you are not critical; if you are critical you do not trust" by our own Dauphin

                    by gustynpip on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 05:35:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  Thankfully you don't have to. (^_^) (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueoasis, HairyTrueMan, Predictor

      But yeah, that irked me a bit too.  The interfaith people seem to think that as long as each of the major religions has a seat at the table, it doesn't matter if the rest of us do, especially those of us who are non-believers.

      Proud member of the unpaid "professional left" since 8/10/2010 / Viva Canadian healthcare! Death to the Pentagon! Free Mumia!

      by Big Tex on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:52:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Strawman argument. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        effervescent

        The interfaith people seem to think that as long as each of the major religions has a seat at the table, it doesn't matter if the rest of us do, especially those of us who are non-believers.

        You want them to say that.

        How ridiculous.

        Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

        by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:59:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I said seem to think. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Predictor

          And I base this on the fact that atheists and agnostics are often excluded from interfaith organizations and public activities.  How often do you tune into a public event like the 9/11 commemorations and see an atheist or agnostic up at the podium with the Christian, Jewish and Muslim clerics?

          Proud member of the unpaid "professional left" since 8/10/2010 / Viva Canadian healthcare! Death to the Pentagon! Free Mumia!

          by Big Tex on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:21:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think it's because... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Big Tex

            although different religions disagree on a lot of points, atheists (and to an extent agnostics) deny the whole premise. It kinda reminds me of that Futurama bit, with the popplers? And they are on that 4-panel splitscreen talk show, and somebody goes, "slow down, nobody here is saying we shouldn't eat ANY meat..." and the hippie in one of panels exasperatedly goes, "I am! I'm saying that!" and they all talk over him? Anybody?

            "I wish you luck on not hating your parents for mixing up such an unthinkable person." --The frickin´ HP--

            by McWaffle on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:44:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL, I remember that episode. (0+ / 0-)

              But yeah, it's like they want to pretend that we nonbelievers don't exist.

              Proud member of the unpaid "professional left" since 8/10/2010 / Viva Canadian healthcare! Death to the Pentagon! Free Mumia!

              by Big Tex on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:57:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  1 Peter 3:8-9 (6+ / 0-)

    Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.
    1 Peter 3:8-9

    post hoc, ergo propter hoc

    by RvgAqs on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:46:54 PM PDT

    •  They reall like the OT (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dmhlt 66

      "eye-for-eye, tooth-for-tooth, hand-for-hand" version better...

      Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

      by angry marmot on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:57:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps, but . . . (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        angry marmot

        The intent of the law of retribution was to ensure that the punishment corresponded to the crime in order to control the punishment inflicted on the guilty persons, not collective punishment which is what they are espousing now. Even within the various OT references to variations of "life for life, eye for eye" etc., there was a predisposition towards fair retributive justice. This sure ain't it.

        post hoc, ergo propter hoc

        by RvgAqs on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:59:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  How will we explain our ignorance... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greenomanic, TomP, SoCalSal

    How will we explain our ignorance and our compliance to our grandchildren?

    Personally, I think they'll wonder more how we left them a cooking planet.

    350.org! The climate can't wait.

    by B Amer on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:52:00 PM PDT

  •  Hey guys!! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pam from Calif, renzo capetti

    Could we get a little love for bubbanomics diary about the plight in Pakistan? It is a very important diary. Please help with a rec.

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    "Winter downpour~~ Even the monkey~~ Needs a raincoat." Basho

    by rubyr on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:54:35 PM PDT

  •  Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, wayoutinthestix, dmhlt 66

    Thomas Jefferson, Article II, 1779

    No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

    Tell the "original intent of the framers" baggers to explain this one away . . .

    post hoc, ergo propter hoc

    by RvgAqs on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:56:41 PM PDT

  •  It's Simple. (0+ / 0-)

    Just tell them we didn't smell the bodies burning.

  •  Same way we explained for the previous 8 years.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, Eric Nelson
  •  Thank you TomP for (7+ / 0-)

    A call for basic morality, basic tolerance basic humanist decency, and adherence to our sacred documents that established and incorporated thes our basic principles into law. Self evident truths that we seem to forget whenever we feel threatened by other.

    The other is us, we are a nation of laws not men and we cannot allow the enemies of freedom and equality to bring us to a point where we abandon these self evident truths. This country was not founded on any religious law be it Christian or Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist, All religions or spiritual belief, organized or personal, are weakened by ceding the government the power of God.

    Enlightenment, equal rights and civil rights are secular and offer all citizens the ability to live without fear for their religious and spiritual beliefs. The same thing should apply to race and culture. We are and always will be a pluralistic nation. People should learn to live with this as we are after all the family of man and a nation of laws. The basic tenet's of our laws have always acknowledge this most basic law, freedom of religion and equality for all of us regardless of race or creed. not to hard to grasp and not too hard to implement.          

  •  Thx TomP For the long term perspective beyond (5+ / 0-)

    today's political/MSM circumscription - Here are a few quotes from thinkers of our past:

    Link to many ideas

    "One of the most important things for young people to learn is the difficult art of being at home in the world.  Ahead of them lies the gigantic, but infinitely rewarding, task of learning to know and understand other people, and the equally difficult task of helping other peoples to know and understand them...The greatest and most inspiring adventure of all time will probably be carried out in the next fifty years, the adventure of building a new world."  --Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned, everywhere is war...and until there are no longer first-class and second-class citizens of any nation, until the color of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes, me seh war.  And until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race, there is war.  And until that day, the dream of lasting peace, world citizenship, rule of international morality, will remain but a fleeting illusion to be pursued, but never attained...now everywhere is war."  --Bob Marley (1945–1981)

    Some more ideas:

    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt."  --Bertrand Russell

    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."  --Jonathan Swift

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."  --Albert Einstein

    Right on question TomP t&r'd - the question that hasn't been lucrative (politically or otherwise) enough to address just yet imo

    I don't want your country back..I want my country forward - Bill Maher

    by Eric Nelson on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 02:15:18 PM PDT

  •  Complicity, not compliance, right? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP
  •  The same way we always do.... (0+ / 0-)

    "Gosh, well I didn't do it."

    "It's just a few bad apples."

    "It's not all white folks."

    "Let's have a conversation."

    You know - all the normal stuff that results in it being nobody's fault, and does nothing to end it, and let's us all clap each other on the back, congratulating each other on how it's not our fault.

    Same as it ever was.

    I'm gonna go eat a steak. And fuck my wife. And pray to GOD - hatemailapalooza, 052210

    by punditician on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 02:21:06 PM PDT

  •  Good that many churches and synagogues are (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MBNYC, TomP, greengemini, Eric Nelson

    speaking up and defending Muslims. Thanks for the diary.

    Slavery is the legal fiction that a person is property. Corporate personhood is the legal fiction that property is a person. -Jan Edwards

    by SoCalSal on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 02:21:21 PM PDT

  •  Let's frame the issue carefully (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MBNYC, TomP, SoCalSal
    1.  Opponents of the GZ Islamic Center claim they acknowledge the legal right to have it built there.  Let's take that at face value, even though many of us suspect that's bullshit, i.e., religion is fine as long as it's mine, not thine.
    1.  However, opponents claim that the center desecrates hallowed ground.  To do that, it must be something that desecrates.  What is it about something Muslim that desecrates?   Obvioulsy something.
    1.  Opponents also claim it symbolizes Muslim victory, that it would be viewed by Muslims as a symbol of Muslim triumph.  That assums Muslims feel that 9/11 was a triumph or, more specifically, that it is correct for us to believe that Muslims consider 9/11 a triumph.

    Bottom line:  There's no case for us to be offended by the GZ Islamic Center unless we believe that Muslim things can desecrate certain locations by their mere propinquity, or that we are correct to conclude that a large cross-section of Muslims consider our tragedy to be their triumph.

  •  How will we explain our ignorance? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP

    Well I'm of the "grandparent" generation now, and all we have to say is "Too much pot and LSD".

    I don't know what the next generation of grandparents will say.

    "If religion is the opiate of the masses, then fundamentalism is the amphetamine." Miz Vittitow

    by MillieNeon on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 02:59:52 PM PDT

  •  Thanks, TomP. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, Eric Nelson

    I appreciate Dr. Kinnamon's statement and wish many more non-Muslim religious leaders in the United States would speak out so clearly.

    Teach us to listen to sounds larger than our own heartbeat; that endure longer than our own weeping in the dark. - Lillian Smith

    by RadioGirl on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 03:58:26 PM PDT

  •  Matthew 25:31-41 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, Eric Nelson

    35For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you [b]brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and [c]lodged Me,36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me [d]with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me.(B)

    37Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink? 38And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You? 39And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?

    40And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [[e]in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me.(C)

    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~Theodore Roosevelt

    by Pam from Calif on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 04:22:38 PM PDT

    •  Conservative,republican, teabaggers are NOT (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      christians.  They hate themselves because they want to be million and billionaires which they are not.  They want to do away with the middle class so that non-whites and miniorities can not enjoy what they enjoyed although these groups attributed to the fund while they received SS all these years. They would rather ruin it for themselves to keep it out of those that come after them getting it.  Suddenly it's an "entitlement" program unless they are getting it.  The same with unemployment.  When the republican/teabaggers need it that's different, if they don't kick em off of it.  

  •  The "not a mosque" Community Center (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, MBNYC, Amber6541

    has absolutely nothing to do with Ground Zero and everything to do with the neighborhood.  If you lived there would you want your church to be placed miles away to satisfy someone else's 'sensitivity'?  People live and work in that neighborhood and unless there is a huge buffer zone created where no one can live or work then they have a right to build whatever the neighborhood decides they want there.  Everyone else should just butt out.

    Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will. Mark Twain

    by whoknu on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 05:10:39 PM PDT

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