David: OK, what do we want to get on to? Let's talk about... OK, I want to talk about how could a public option actually start, because we've talked over the years many times about is there really a possibility for a public option, would pharmaceutical companies and health insurers who have very strong lobby influences on how the country is run ever really allow that to happen? And the consensus really has been no, right, Louis? I mean, that's been my consensus, and most of our guests'.
Louis: Right.
David: Do you still think that it is just an impossible thing to ever really expect?
Louis: Hard to say. I think it'll probably take a long time.
David: The reason that this... I've been thinking about this is I was talking about, with somebody about the Jared Lee Loughner Gabrielle Giffords shooting, and I was thinking to myself, well, not specifically with Jared Lee Loughner, but in general, when somebody is underinsured or doesn't have insurance, they, if you have a cut, if you have urgent care or a physical injury, you're probably going to go and accrue debt, go to the emergency room, whatever it is you have to do, and if you have the flu, you're probably going to go and be seen, but if you have some kind of mental illness and don't have insurance, it seems that that is much easier to say I'm not going to look into that, because the idea is it's not as severe of an issue as a broken leg, for example. In some ways, I would agree that it's not, but in others, I would disagree. Do you think that's a fair assessment? If you don't have insurance, you will-- you're much less likely to get mental health care than physical health care?
Louis: I guess that's fair, yeah.
David: So I was thinking well, how many of these shootings and how many crimes, how much could society be bettered if people were able to get mental help when they needed it as opposed to having to skip it due to not having insurance? Do you think this is a valid point that I'm going? I'm not saying Jared Lee Loughner is this example, it just made me think of it.
Louis: Yeah, but at the same time, mental help is one of those things that you realize you need, and even if you do, even if people tell you you need it...
David: Sure.
Louis: Just as a matter of pride, you might not go seek it.
David: No question about it. There are those cases.
Louis: But you could be right.
David: I'm talking generally.
Louis: Yeah.
David: So then I started thinking well, remember all the talk of the Founding Fathers? We hear from the Tea Party and conservatives all the time that the Founding Fathers wanted to give power to the states, let the states have the power, and we actually might start to see an inkling of somewhat of a public option or national health care through the power of the states. And here's what I mean, there are a couple of states, number one, Oregon and Vermont, which are considering the idea of some kind of single payer system. This will depend on legislation that would allow states to opt out of the so-called Obamacare, the recent health care reform. Also, Connecticut is thinking about their own public option, which is actually in the health care reform bill that you can do. You can create, the state is free to create its own public option. So Connecticut is thinking about this.
And when I read this, I thought well, number one, I think it's a great idea. Obviously, our audience knows that that's something I support. But the arguments that to me are so obviously false about public options and national health care, the idea is that it's a job killer. We heard a lot about this from the conservatives, did we not, Louis?
Louis: Right, right.
David: About this is a bill which will kill jobs, it will not create jobs, for a number of different reasons. And I examined every reason I could come up with, and they all seem to me to be patently absurd. And I just looked into this, let's think about this. Let's talk about this being a job creator instead of a job killer. There's numerous components, and they all point to the same thing. Number one, as a business owner, I would be more likely to hire people if I knew I didn't have to provide them health care, right? Now, I know, you can say well, many employers already don't have to provide health care. Well, but if your competition is, then certainly you're not going to get the best employees without providing health care. So there are many businesses that aren't hiring because of the cost not of the wage that you have to pay, but because of the cost of the health care you have to provide. So number one, you're going to get more businesses willing to hire if they are not forced to pay for health care.
Number two, let's look at it from the employee's side. People are more likely to accept jobs and get out of that unemployment pool that both sides of the political aisle are so angry about if they know they're going to get health care from the state or the federal government, whatever it is we're talking about. So whereas now you may be staying on unemployment and covered under COBRA from your previous job, or depending on what state you're in, there may be some safety net there, people would be more likely to move on to an actual job which would preclude them from continuing unemployment benefits, and presumably end their COBRA, if they know that they're going to be covered either way because there's a state plan, for example.
Louis: And people could argue with you all day about this, but this is why letting the state... letting it be up to the states is the best thing possible. If Connecticut wants to be a pioneer in this, let them be the guinea pig. We'll see what works, we'll see what doesn't, people can improve on whatever system they put in place, and when ultimately we both believe it will work, other states will follow suit, and eventually the whole country will have a single payer system.
David: And, well, we're skipping ahead several steps here, Louis. Very optimistic. But there's another aspect here, too. If we are a country that wants to encourage entrepreneurship, as we say we do, what would make you take the leap and start your own business more than if you knew that if you quit your job, which you hate and you're just sticking around because of the health care, you'd still be able to have care? How would that not encourage entrepreneurship? There are many people who say I would love to be doing my own thing, I just can't go without health care. My family can't go without health care, so I have to stick out this job that I don't like as opposed to starting my own business.
Why are we the only country out of the 34 OECD countries, the most developed countries in the world, the U.S. is the only one that allows the for-profit system of health care, for-profit companies can offer primary care? Of all the things that there are to debate in this country, honestly, this should be the easiest sell. Eliminate the for-profit middleman that's skimming whatever percentage you believe to be off the top, stop the profiteering from illness and death, this should be obvious. This really should be an obvious one.
Louis: The private companies have too much power.
David: The private companies, the lobbies, the pharmaceutical... the hospitals, the politicians who are being influenced by the money they receive. I think that if we are-- I believe that if you just ask me plainly, do I see national health care in the future for the country, I'm not optimistic.
Louis: Right. It's kind of like switching to the metric system. Yeah, it makes way more sense. Do you ever see that happening?
David: Is that a good analogy? I'm not even sure.
Louis: Just a major overhaul of everything.
David: Got to reprint all the signs.
Louis: You've got to change all the gas tanks.
David: You've got to rewire everybody's brains.
Louis: Yeah.
David: Yeah, I don't know that it's a good analogy, but it's an interesting one.
Louis: It's something that makes sense that will never happen.
David: I don't know that there's a huge lobby behind the English measurement system.
Louis: No, there's not.
David: In any event, I think that if there is going to be progress here, I believe at the state level, hey, it's the conservative idea. Let's let the states decide, let's give the states power. I think that the source will be there.
Louis: I hope it happens.
Transcript provided by Alex Wickersham. For transcription, translation, captions, and subtitles, contact Alex at directtranslation@gmail.com.