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The Colorado "Batman Movie" Shooting Massacre will generate many narratives among the public and media. This tragedy will be one more opportunity to reflect on the United States' gun laws. The relationship between popular culture and violence will be a hot topic as well. Others will focus on questions surrounding access to mental healthcare, and what if anything could have been done to prevent James Holmes from committing his murder rampage during the debut of The Dark Knight Rises.

However, there are several conversations that will likely not occur. It is unlikely that the aftermath of the Colorado shooting rampage will be a moment when we as a country reflect upon the relationship between masculinity and violence. There most certainly will not be a "beer summit" about how accused shooter James Holmes is one more entry in a long list of mass killers who are white, male, and young.

When viewed through the white racial frame, there is nothing in his deeds on last Friday night that reflects upon the behavior of white people, generally, or white men in particular. From this perspective, his dressing up as The Joker, and killing more than a dozen people, and wounding many more, are the actions of one sick person.

As folks have worked through many times before in the common "what if?" game of race in America, if James Holmes were black or brown this would be one more signal to the existence of a "pathological culture" among said group. If James Holmes were Muslim American the Colorado shooting would be a clear act of "terrorism," and an example of the Islamic bogeyman next door who has occupied the dreams and nightmares of the "heartland" since September 11th.

These narratives would be accepted as common sense; few qualifiers or critical interventions would be offered by the mass media, the pundit classes, or the general public.

Consider the following list for a moment: with a few exceptions, most of those men who have committed mass shootings in the United States have been white.

July 12, 1976: Edward Charles Allaway, a custodian in the library of California State University, Fullerton, fatally shot seven fellow employees and wounded two others.

Aug. 20, 1986: Pat Sherrill, 44, a postal worker who was about to be fired, shoots 14 people at a post office in Edmond, Okla. He then kills himself.

July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty, an out-of-work security guard, kills 21 people in a McDonald's restaurant in San Ysidro, Calif. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty.

Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31.

Oct. 16, 1991: A deadly shooting rampage took place in Killeen, Texas, as George Hennard opened fire at a Luby's Cafeteria, killing 23 people before taking his own life. 20 others were wounded in the attack.

April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves in the school's library.

March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people – including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff's deputy – across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.

The freedom to kill, maim, commit wanton acts of violence, and to be anti-social (as well as pathological) without having your actions reflect on your own racial group, is one of the ultimate, if not in fact most potent, examples of White Privilege in post civil rights era America. Instead of a national conversation where we reflect on what has gone wrong with young white men in our society--a group which apparently possesses a high propensity for committing acts of mass violence--James Holmes will be framed as an outlier.

That is a mighty comfort to have--all of one's deficiencies are ignored as those of an individual; all of one's abilities and gifts are taken as positive attributes and credits to one's race.

As comedian Louis CK has joked, it sure as hell is good to be white and male in America! If given a choice to re-up every year, who the hell wouldn't sign up to be white again?

In America, folks often ask, "what the hell is wrong with black people?" In the aftermath of the Colorado Movie Massacre, Columbine, and many other incidents, we need to ask, "what the hell is wrong with young white men?

Sadly, that question will not be asked on a national stage. White privilege is blinding. In the case of James Holmes, it also mutes a much needed national conversation about the ties between (white) masculinity and violence.

Originally posted to chaunceydevega on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:48 AM PDT.

Also republished by White Privilege Working Group and Barriers and Bridges.

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  •  Tip Jar (230+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    allergywoman, tarminian, SueM1121, Gooserock, se portland, paxpdx, translatorpro, LynChi, shanikka, bnasley, Occam was an optimist, Cartoon Peril, Angela Quattrano, One Pissed Off Liberal, Hopefruit2, Supavash, Smoh, sjburnman, john07801, arlene, worldlotus, samanthab, Egalitare, implicate order, bubbanomics, dtruth, deha, indubitably, OleHippieChick, Karen Hedwig Backman, OldDragon, eeff, sandrad23, citisven, DefendOurConstitution, second gen, atana, regis, Mind That, LSophia, Yellow Canary, Lefty Ladig, mamamedusa, pat bunny, gulfgal98, liz, Vita Brevis, SneakySnu, uciguy30, dle2GA, markdd, Tonedevil, BigOkie, nominalize, slowbutsure, Stripe, snideelf, Tool, moviemeister76, Carol in San Antonio, owlbear1, bluesheep, Shirl In Idaho, NYWheeler, CaliSista, Real Change, Sharon, tin woodswoman, Clytemnestra, zukesgirl64, Fresno, trueblueliberal, Dancun74, historys mysteries, leonard145b, Rosaura, mikeconwell, lcrp, realalaskan, RatCitySqueaker, yoduuuh do or do not, Tracker, boriquasi, blueoregon, rantsposition, doroma, Treg, bink, Habitat Vic, eru, RandomNonviolence, devis1, kathny, sngmama, AZ Sphinx Moth, SantaFeMarie, emal, TheGreatLeapForward, dotdash2u, oldmilitant, Rooe, JoanMar, keirdubois, mozartssister, real world chick, GoldnI, VetGrl, Bernie68, Senor Unoball, sviscusi, Vinnie Vegas, mahakali overdrive, Lost and Found, Akonitum, sethtriggs, Cassandra Waites, FriendlyNeighbor, Meteor Blades, anyname, paradox, prettygirlxoxoxo, Sapere aude, greycat, WI Deadhead, Calvino Partigiani, shortgirl, Marjmar, Nulwee, NoisyGong, Ditch Mitch KY, tytalus, Marihilda, surfbird007, too many people, maybeeso in michigan, Pam from Calif, countwebb, GenXangster, remembrance, shesaid, TFinSF, socal altvibe, Loonesta, Grandma Susie, hubcap, stellaluna, Hammerhand, grover, Regina in a Sears Kit House, mookins, 2thanks, CanyonWren, shopkeeper, sockpuppet, kirbybruno, ChuckInReno, aitchdee, Wreck Smurfy, mod2lib, fearisthemindkiller, Paddy999, Mistral Wind, 43north, Panacea Paola, clubbing guy, Cat Servant, Oaktown Girl, Susan from 29, AbominableAllStars, Anima, La Gitane, NJpeach, Anak, awesumtenor, Hastur, the good witch, Ocelopotamus, little lion, sexgenderbody, kaliope, MKSinSA, johnosahon, pixxer, Diogenes2008, jimmylutherking, radical simplicity, DruidQueen, Denise Oliver Velez, Funkygal, Matt Z, Lensy, jgumby, splashy, TexasLefty, jhop7, sewaneepat, theKgirls, boofdah, isabelle hayes, Foundmyvoice, Sandy on Signal, megisi, tonyahky, Diana in NoVa, Imhotepsings, YaNevaNo, Eileen B, Robynhood too, Kinak, luckydog, poco, BobboSphere, ankae, reginahny, Arahahex, Amber6541, Sean Robertson, Bendra, zizi, SeaTurtle, kalmoth, native, avsp, ivorybill, Larsstephens, Dave in Northridge, Oh Mary Oh, Joy of Fishes, Chitown Kev, mali muso
  •  Are you saying James Holmes is Ed Wuncler III? (7+ / 0-)

    Huh. Aaron McGruder IS the answer.

  •  He was not dressed as the Joker nor does the (10+ / 0-)

    joker character appear in this movie

    his dressing up as The Joker
    he was dressed in tactical armor/swat gear

    "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

    by eXtina on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:03:51 PM PDT

    •  NO, he wasn't dressed as the Joker (10+ / 0-)

      But he did die his hair a gruesome shade of red.

      In the end, why does it even matter?

      Horse prom is black tie muthaf**ka - Jon Stewart

      by EntrWriter on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:08:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  nit pick...he was inspired by the joker is acting (19+ / 0-)

      like him in prison and dyed his hair in a manner evocative of him.

      engage the bigger claims.

      •  there is a lot of information that they're not (14+ / 0-)

        revealing about his agenda, politics, motives, or beliefs, so any claim as to any of that is premature

        "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

        by eXtina on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:09:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  he is in jail (10+ / 0-)

          apparently acting like the Joker and telling folks he is the Joker. Read my earlier post if your reaction is a f(x) of a fear that I am "blaming" the movie for his actions--which I clearly am not.

          Dude wanted to be the Clown Prince of Chaos. He succeeded.

          •  Actually, I believe he's doing (28+ / 0-)

            this on purpose to mislead. He's studied psychology and psychopathology and knows the deal. He's faking the whole "mental illness" thing.

            True schizophrenics are not that organized and detailed in planning and execution over an extended period. This was a revenge killing...this guy felt "wronged" by someone, or something and was out to kill and inflict hurt and pain and sorrow. His desire to inflict hurt outweighed his concerns about being put in jail.

            •  Has he been diagnosed as schizophrenic? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zqxj, Chinton

              Huh, haven't seen that sourced yet.

              „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

              by translatorpro on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:21:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Source for this statement...? (0+ / 0-)
              He's studied psychology and psychopathology and knows the deal.
            •  Psychopathy (9+ / 0-)

              We all must study psychopathy very carefully. It is what has always been called evil. Psychopathy is the entire lack of empathy, compassion and conscience. It is biological -- they are missing brain structures such as oxytocin receptors and neuron tracts linking the limbic system with the frontal lobes. They do not feel. This young man is clearly a psychopath.

              Empathy has three components to it: cognitive (theory of mind), motor (imitative), and emotional (the actual feeling). In psychopathy, the first 2 do work, but the last does not, and exogenous oxytocin does not work on them at all. There is a gene for oxytocin receptors called OXTR and one particular nucleotide misspelling appears to cause psychopathy. Of course, there are many other factors as well, but it is central.

              They are disconnected. They feel nothing and consider introspection a difficult and pointless exercise. They adapt to their surroundings by learning to imitate emotions enough to fit in -- they often practice in front of a mirror. They feel the rest of us are inferior, limited by emotion and empathy, whereas they are free and everything is an option.

              Psychopathy is not successful as a reason for NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity) because it is not regarded as insanity but rather a variation on normal -- psychopaths are often high-functioning individuals that gravitate towards power and are disproportionately found in corporate boardrooms and government. They make up ~1% of the population, but at least 4% in positions of power. It's all about power with them.

              About half the inmates of prisons for violent crimes are psychopaths.

              I personally believe that the GOP is the party of choice for the psychopathically inclined, as it is a party that shudders when Obama says he wants to appoint SC justices with empathy. And didn't some idiot GOP congressman submit a bill today to block state efforts to reduce animal cruelty in food production? Psychopaths often are identified early by their propensity for torturing animals.

              Sadly, people will often follow psychopaths, who tend to be master manipulators. Cognitive dissonance allows people to believe that they are still good while following a psychopath. History is littered with these stories.

              I personally would favor genetic tests for all politicians, corporate heads and those who wish to buy weapons, and abortions for fetuses with the OXTR polymorphism. We can eliminate war and murder but only if we attack psychopathy at the root. The harm and suffering these people cause is massive.

              Believe me, I know.

              For more information, read Robert Hare's books on psychopathy such as Snakes in Suits or Without Conscience.

              "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

              by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:24:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You know "clearly" that he is a psychopath? (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                OIL GUY, grover, Hastur, erush1345, Matt Z

                Exactly how?

                A psychopath is born that way and almost always gives indications of the problem throughout their childhood. We have this guy described as a "nice" "pleasant' man, a "good" kid.

                There are a lot of conflicting signals with this man. Can we please hold off on the armchair pronouncements until the real experts have a chance to find out the truth?

                Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                by Sirenus on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:59:22 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Any conjecture on his mother's first words to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  eyeswideopen

                  authorities? She would have a much better catalog of his behaviors. Why were her first words "You've got the right person!"?

                  Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                  Economic
                  Left/Right: -7.75
                  Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                  by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:58:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  She was referring to herself (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    crose, Matt Z

                    (the police were looking for his mother), not referring to her son.

                    •  I do SO hope you are correct. (0+ / 0-)

                      I have seen no report, anywhere of that being the case. (And I have a pretty wide peripheral vision when it comes to research!)

                      If you have anything at all that would confirm this, it would be of the greatest benefit to me.

                      Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                      Economic
                      Left/Right: -7.75
                      Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                      by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:00:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Because he's been acting erratically LATELY? (0+ / 0-)

                    Because he's had a recent, strange personality change?

                    Because in the last few months, he's started doing things and saying things that scared her?

                    My point, again, is that we have no business making such pronouncements as "He's obviously a psychopath" because right now, we simply don't know.

                    Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                    by Sirenus on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:15:09 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Police are trained (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rubyclaire, Nulwee, native

                  The police are trained to detect psychopathy using Hare's techniques and no doubt they will indicate what they see. However, the coldness of the planning and the calmness of the execution are an enormous red flag. Psychopaths are the sorts of people who could scale a pile of dead bodies only concerned that they might get blood on their shoes.

                  Murderers generally divide into two camps, psychopaths and perpetrators of crimes of passion. This was not a crime of passion.

                  I suspect that he was studying the neuroscience of aberrant behavior because he knew he was different, probably a psychopath. Young people often wish to study themselves. And, his mother did not seem entirely surprised that he had committed this horrendous bloody mayhem.

                  We shall learn more.

                  "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                  by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:04:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Maybe police are trained to identify and (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    grover, crose

                    distinguish various mental health issues at the level this is now being investigated. But most police officers, even many detectives, only have a high school education and some weeks of basic law enforcement training. There is a whole lot of work to be done before this man is diagnosed.

                    “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                    by stellaluna on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:07:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Not true (0+ / 0-)

                      The top prosecutor of a county is often on the scene of a particularly horrific crime right away, along with top law enforcement personnel and detectives. These people are highly trained professionals and are often also very intelligent and well-educated. Many of these people are experts in forensic science. They have to be if they are to be first on a major crime scene.

                      I respect and appreciate these people enormously. They are the ones who have to wade into the blood and gore and find the pieces of the puzzle that give the answers that co-victims so desperately need.

                      They are also often immensely compassionate. They are a co-victim's only hope for justice. Their role in society should never be underestimated.

                      "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                      by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:24:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I said maybe at this level. In many jurisdictions (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        grover, crose

                        though your top prosecutor is an elected official. With training in the law not psychology.  And your top investgators are simply road deputies who have moved up the ranks  usually with mostly in-house training--in investigation, not psychology. I'm not saying that they don't have access to resources if they choose. Just that they aren't trained to make those mental health diagnosis. I'm not saying they aren't good people or aren't good at what they do. Just saying not trained to diagnos mental illness

                        “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                        by stellaluna on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:44:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Robert Hare's checklist (0+ / 0-)

                          Robert Hare is the world's leading expert on psychopathy. He has been training police for a long time now. His checklist and street diagnosis methodology was designed especially for and made available only to law enforcement. They use it because psychopaths make up about half of violent criminals while only about 1% of the population at large. Needless to say, it is hugely relevant to the work of law enforcement and prosecutors, and it has been widely embraced by them as an exceedingly useful tool.

                          Read Hare's Without Conscience.

                          "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                          by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:12:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Plus (0+ / 0-)

                      Do you have any other descriptive term for someone who would do such a thing in that way? Would someone with functioning empathy and conscience be able to do that?

                      Clearly, you need to study psychopathy very carefully. The more you learn, the more you will understand.

                      "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                      by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:46:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I've spent the last 25 years trying to figure out (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        jimmylutherking, sfgb

                        whether or not illegal behavior is related to a mental health issue.  Professionally. I have worked with forensic mental health professionals in probably more than 100 cases.  I know that very few people are ever classified as pychopaths because the requirements for the diagnosis are quite stringent. But mostly I know that no competent psychiatrist or psychologist would diagnos a person based on media reports.

                        “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                        by stellaluna on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:06:04 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I am not a psychologist (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          sfgb

                          I am a co-victim. In my search for answers to why two of our family members were brutally murdered in the most horrific crime the sheriff or prosecutor had ever seen, I read everything I could get my hands on about psychopathy because it was obviously the work of a psychopath. This was corroborated by the prosecutor.

                          Some things are too obvious for plain sight.

                          Psychopathy is not recognized for NGRI. Just because it is a biological condition does not excuse anything. In fact, the more intrinsic the condition, the more necessary it is that we as a society lock them up. There is no cure, no redemption possible. They will never have an insight into what they cannot feel.

                          "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                          by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:33:21 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Did this person display indications, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            native

                            prior to the murders, that were those of a psychopath?

                            True psychopaths are essentially born, which is why I agree that they can't be rehabilitated or "cured." But almost always, there are indicators of the condition that are discovered after the crime.  Brutality towards family members. Torturing animals. Viciousness towards other people. Total lack of concern for the needs of others. Total focus on what they want, regardless of how it affects others.

                            Holmes doesn't sound like that.  At least not from the little we've heard. Which is why we all need to wait and see....then judge.  

                            Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                            by Sirenus on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:29:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Invisible predators (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            native

                            The most dangerous thing about psychopaths is that they are nearly invisible predators. Even  families often do not know that their kin are psychopaths because it is an uncomfortable subject that is not often discussed. They may know something's perhaps a bit off but nothing worth worrying about. Psychopaths are masters of disguise and manipulation. They are not frothing demons with red eyes that you can readily detect. If they were, they would have died out long ago. It is their chameleonic quality that makes them so successful. That is why I am trying to get you and everyone else to look carefully at the phenomenon and study it because this is serious.

                            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                            by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 10:01:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As I said, usually indicators are found (0+ / 0-)

                            "after the crime."

                            When people start to look at this person's life very, very carefully.

                            And then, almost always, the clues are there. Not often recognized, because few people know what a psychopath is. And they can be quite charming.

                            But when you start digging, you find out that people in the family....maybe the smallest sibling, maybe the intimindated mother....were scared of this person, even if they wouldn't admit it to themselves, or shrugged it off.

                            "He set a cat on fire....we thought it was an accident."
                            "He used to smack me around and told me he'd kill me if I ever told Mom or Dad."
                            "He'd go crazy if he didn't get his way...but he'd always act real sorry afterwards."

                            The world is full of such people....who aren't seen as clinical psychopaths by the laypeople surrounding them.

                            Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                            by Sirenus on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 08:10:09 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And beyond what I said above, (0+ / 0-)

                            psychopaths come in every conceivable stripe. Imagine that you are born without the capability to empathize at all and without a conscience. What might you do? It depends entirely upon your inclinations and what else is going on in and around you. You will adapt to the situation, just as everyone else around you will, and you will fit into your family one way or another. You may even become the favorite, because you will be able to gauge what is needed for your own success.

                            Most psychopaths are not killers. As I mentioned before, they tend to concentrate in corporate boardrooms and politics.

                            Psychopaths have a high sensitivity to dopamine rewards. Without the warm feelings of oxytocin, they crave dopaminergic release. This is why power and control is so important to them. They often look upon the rest of us as somewhat pathetic and possibly expendable beings limited by empathy and conscience while they are unconstrained.

                            Maintaining the disguise is important and disclosure is sometimes a precipitating factor in acts of violence. They depend upon their blending in to get what they want.

                            Again, that is why I am trying to get you all to take this phenomenon seriously enough to study it.

                            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                            by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 11:15:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Indeed (0+ / 0-)

                            The term "wolf in sheep's clothing" is precisely apt.

                            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                            by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 11:25:10 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Threading (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not sure if the threading is correct here, so please refer to all of my posts in this section. I may have not clicked the right reply to button. It's been a few years since I've been on DKos. I just yesterday jumped in to the fray.

                            Healing takes a very long time.

                            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                            by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 11:28:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Our loss (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          shaharazade, sfgb

                          was 3 years ago.

                          "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                          by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:44:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I am very sorry for your loss. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sfgb

                            I hope you and your family get or have had a resolution to the case that satisfies you.

                            “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                            by stellaluna on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 12:38:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is never (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stellaluna

                            a resolution that satisfies you.

                            Attempting to recover joy becomes your task.

                            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                            by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 10:53:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It must be so hard. I do hope that you are able to (0+ / 0-)

                            do that. Best wishes for you and your family.

                            “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

                            by stellaluna on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 01:13:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you, dearheart. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            stellaluna

                            These events reawaken too much and the feelings rush up again and you re-experience too much. I don't know that it ever goes away.

                            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                            by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 01:27:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  How about someone who was suicidal? (0+ / 0-)

                        Someone who had a brain tumor? Someone who had recently experienced a trauma that made them just not give a damn anymore. Someone who has a mental illness that makes them totally irrational, to the point that they can't distinquish between movie violence and real violence.

                        I can think of a dozen reasons why someone who was not a clinical psychopath could do this. And as yet, we've seen no indication that he's done anything in the past that indicates psychopathic tendencies. No bullying, no torture of animals, no brutality.

                        So let's quit casualy labeling this guy....and wait for the experts to figure him out.

                        Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

                        by Sirenus on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:22:01 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Probabilities (0+ / 0-)

                          ...are against that, but yes, it has happened before. There are far more psychopaths than people with massive brain tumors in just the right area, and especially massive brain tumors that still allow detailed planning and execution of very complicated plans. People I've known with brain tumors had difficulty even standing up due to the dizziness.

                          I suppose my error was in using somewhat more categorical language than I should have. I will now revise my statement to be "It is clear to me that this young man is a psychopath". I hope that will quell your unease.

                          But please read Robert Hare. We as a society need to grapple with the phenomenon of psychopathy. They are like time bombs.

                          "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                          by eyeswideopen on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 11:01:46 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                •  I forgot (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sfgb

                  One more clue that points directly at psychopathy is the murderer's fascination with evil. Friends noted that he always rooted for the bad guy in films they watched together.

                  While there is an intersection of schizophrenia and psychopathy that a small percentage of murderers inhabit, it is highly unlikely that a schizophrenic could be organized and functional enough to go to university.

                  I feel great anguish for the co-victims. I know what it is like. You cannot eat, you cannot sleep. Your heart pounds, your head aches and your mind is numb. All you can hope for are answers.

                  "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                  by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:07:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Well. (0+ / 0-)

                I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've ever seen Eugenics advocated at Daily Kos.

                •  Not eugenics. (0+ / 0-)

                  Social welfare. Tell me how much you'd like to have psychopaths among us after you've had several family members murdered by them.

                  "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

                  by eyeswideopen on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:48:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  this is an issue of the problems of how we (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BobTheHappyDinosaur

            deal with mental health in this country (ie by ignoring them and sweeping them under the rug) drugging our children if they show any signs of creativity or intelligence or rising above mediocrity, societal glorification of pornographic violence and the hysteria over second amendment rights and gun control restricting 'freedoms'. Yours is a side issue.

            "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

            by eXtina on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:28:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  sometimes a cigar is just a cigar nt (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cks175, annecros, crose

                "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

                by eXtina on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:36:42 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GenXangster

                The radical Republican party is the party of oppression, fear, loathing and above all more money and power for the people who robbed us.

                by a2nite on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:46:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  what you've just done is called 'baiting'. (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jeff in nyc, cks175, pat bunny, annecros, crose

                and the poster who you responded to hardly deserved it.

              •  Ridiculous statement (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                crose

                Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:27:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Unfortunately, not really. (6+ / 0-)

                  It's only from a vantage point of white privilege that one has the luxury of declaring race a 'minor' issue in American life. If you occupy a certain race or class position, you can go about your day without really worrying about profiling, workplace discrimination, etc. It becomes very easy to assume that no one else has to worry about that stuff either.

                  Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

                  by Dale on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:07:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  eXtina did not declare race a minor issue in (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    crose

                    American life.  eXtina's statement merely ranked the issue of race,  in this specific incident, below mental health awareness, overprescription of drugs, a culture of violence in entertainment, and gun control as factors.

                    Your general  point is true.  But one must be careful if that leads to the incorrect assumption that the vantage point of white privilege is the only one which would explain a disagreement with Chauncey's premise and argument.

                    Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                    by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:56:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Indeed. I have a really cool coworker (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    blueness, sfgb

                    (white male) who has nothing against anybody as far as race goes but when I say something casual like; "My ex bf was white and my new one is black so now it's back to feeling weird and paranoid about riding in the car with my bf...", he'll say something flippant and silly like "sigh. It's always about black and white with you..."

                    Umm, yeah, fucker. lol Then I tell him it must be nice to have to never think about race and some white people never want to talk about race because they don't have one. He'll laugh but I know he really doesn't get it. He became supervisor of the entire floor after doing my job for a few months. They gave him the job of reading xrays right away. I've been there for 8 months and I still haven't been taught to read xrays. They actually brought an old man from sonic inspection, an old man who has crossed eyes, to read xrays. Really? Nice fucking company I work for. My eyes are 20/20. I don't even wear glasses.

                    Things like that are oblivious to him even though he saw the whole thing happen. shrug.

                    "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

                    by GenXangster on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:00:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No disputing this (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      GenXangster, sfgb, isabelle hayes

                      I've seen enough of it myself to last several life times. Being classified as white  puts me in the anomalous position of seeing the external impacts of white supremacy while at the same time being privy to it's internal mechanisms of denial. It's simply assumed on the basis of my gender, age and racial class that I buy into the package, unless I put people on notice otherwise. If it strains my sanity, it can only be worse for others.

                      Nothing human is alien to me.

                      by WB Reeves on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:24:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't think that's what was meant (0+ / 0-)

                    The commenter didn't say that race was a minor issue. I believe what was being critique was the sweep of the statement. There are issues and questions that do not break down neatly along racial lines. Recognizing this doesn't equate to privilege.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:07:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  No race is the predominate issue in our (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              translatorpro, sfgb, awesumtenor, ankae, zizi

              current response to this horror. So far I haven't seen one report that this man has a history of mental health problems. And yet, all over the media, all over this site and in every conversation is the acceptance of a severe mental health problem.

              We have to ask ourselves why we are so willing to accept something for which there is currently no evidence.  Remember the black man who killed five at the courthouse in Atlanta. Everyone assumed he did it to escape. Or because he was angry at how he had been treated. As it turns out he had a severe mental illness. But the national discussion didn't begin with the assumption that he was mentally ill. I think the difference in the situations is apparent.

              On a side note, if this guy wasn't exhibiting many outward symptoms of a mental break we probably can't blame a failure in the system. It just amazes me that we are so quick to do that. Myself included in comments on this very site. Yet in other cases the defendants are met with high skepticism and cries that they are just trying to use a defense.

              “You can only become truly accomplished at something you love. Don't make money your goal. Instead, pursue the things you love doing, and then do them so well that people can't take their eyes off you...” - Maya Angelou

              by stellaluna on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:20:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I experience your biggest claim as the fact that (42+ / 0-)

        a person of any other race, ethnicity, or religion will always be seen in this country to represent his whole group...in negative actions.  I'm glad you made me try that on for size.  It is perhaps the definition of white male privilege.  I'm not sure why your ideas are receiving push back.

        I'm sure you're right that it will never be a part of the national conversation, but it should be.

        Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

        by Smoh on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:47:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  "Some men just want to watch the world (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ankae

        burn..."

        Lots of parallels with The Joker.

        "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

        by GenXangster on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:20:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  He Died His Hair Red and Told Officers He Was (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kyril, annieli

      the Joker. That's how he entered the theatre initially, among many other people dressed in Batman themes according to reports I've heard.

      You're right that during the shooting his hair wasn't visible. He'd sneaked out the exit after entering with the crowd and donned his combat gear before sneaking back in through the exit.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:08:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  so he did it to fit in nt (0+ / 0-)

        "I'm sculpting now. Landscapes mostly." ~ Yogi Bear

        by eXtina on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:09:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would think that speculating on (7+ / 0-)

          his motives for donning the Joker persona would be premature at this juncture.

          „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

          by translatorpro on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:17:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I think it was a case of camoflauge. Allowed him (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eXtina, Occam was an optimist

          to get away with wearing tactical gear.  Rather than being seen as a threat, he was considered to be in costume.

          Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

          by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:39:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  God damn it, he wasn't in tactical gear when he (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nulwee, happymisanthropy

            went in with everyone else. Where does this misinformation come from when the facts are clearly out there???

            •  And he was in tactical gear with red hair... (0+ / 0-)

              ...when he came into the theater blazing.

              There have been reports from survivors that they initially thought it was surprise theater, and was part of the the presentation.

            •  Try watching tape of the press conference. (0+ / 0-)

              He was wearing a tactical vest, throat protector, groin protector, leggings and a gas mask.

              Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

              by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:29:36 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  He went in wearing street clothes, out an (7+ / 0-)

                emergency exit he left propped open, retrieved the gear from his car, then went back in shooting.

                Can I have my vision back? I will live outside your city walls. - "Ride With Me" Steppenwolf

                by 135790 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:38:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  My guess is (5+ / 0-)

                  that if he were a black teenager, he never would have made it out the door, or back into the theater, because staff would have been watching him.  White 20-something is ignored as he leaves the theater and comes back in armed to the teeth.  

                  Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

                  by delphine on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:51:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Isn't this a prime example of (0+ / 0-)

                    the very racism this diary is projecting?

                    "My guess"

                    "If"

                    "been watching him."

                    And, please do not tell me this is predictable based upon history. These are your words, regarding this event, in this diary.

                    Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                    Economic
                    Left/Right: -7.75
                    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                    by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:03:26 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes EXACTLY (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      trueblueliberal, blueness, Hastur, Mlle L

                      what the diary is saying, and I agree.  

                      It is predictable based upon history - the history of racism and profiling in this country.  

                      Cops are more likely to stop and frisk young men of color.

                      When the Trayvon story hit, there were many stories by black pundits that they had to have "the talk" when they became young teens - told not to run on the sidewalk, especially not if they are carrying anything (like a book or cellphone or what have you) because they might attract police attention, not to show their anger, to be extremely cautious of how to act if stopped by the police.

                      A young man, still innocent about the way the world works, is told he doesn't look like a little boy anymore, that there are people in the world that will see him as a threat.

                      There are stores that will focus their CC TV on them for shopping while black.  

                      In this atmosphere - this historical and verifiable atmosphere, a young black man might draw more attention than a young white man, even though the white man is the one with the freaking arsenal in his car and the black man is minding his own business.

                      It's a travesty.  If Trayvon were a young white teen, Zimmerman would be fried, no question.  There would be no discussion of whether Trayvon "deserved" to be stalked and killed, there would be no speculation about whether he was a gang member or other nonsense.  The discussion would focus on what Zimmerman did and whether he was standing his ground, not whether a young man was somehow culpable in his own demise.

                      I'm not ashamed of what I said.  Because I'm describing something real, something horrible, about our society.  

                      I didn't say it should be that way.

                      You choose to read what I wrote as racist, as if I was somehow comforted by the fact that people tend to keep their suspicious eyes on young black men.

                      I'm simply pointing out what is, sadly, likely to be the case.

                      I can only assume you are not familiar with my posts, because if you were, there is no way you would read anything I write in the negative way you seem to be reading this.  I hope I've explained myself well and you understand my comments better now.

                      Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

                      by delphine on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:56:39 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thank you for your response. (0+ / 0-)

                        The projection of expectation bothers me in both posts.

                        I agree with your statements, generally, but I do not go so far in my understanding or experience to project expectations upon "what if" situations.

                        Regarding the Travon Martin case, I do not believe the media conspired to gather black advocates for the Martin family. I believe that was a petition that was created on a site that I, personally supervise.

                        In fact, it was this old, fat, baldheaded white guy that immediately approved that petition, wrote blog diaries about it, and featured the event on an internet radio show. Who would have anticipated that?

                        I did not do those things, nor do I continue to do them because Trayvon Martin was Black, or because George Zimmerman is Peruvian--or because I am White.

                        I do these things because I see that event as one of horrific reality in America today, and especially across the Progressive Southern United States, a decided specialization of the work I do.

                        There is plenty of "question" regarding Zimmerman. This is a drama which has not yet played out. That statement is to me a projection of anticipatory racism. It, using a legal term, "Presumes facts not in evidence." Part of the reason I think the diarist's thesis needs public discussion (which I have offered the diarist, btw) is because we participate in the racism and even, potentially "White Privilege" in our OWN media without even realizing it.

                        This is just my opinion. I do have a tendency to write them as if my finger wrote them on stone. I apologize if that happens here, it's not intentional. It's passion. I think that could be said for some of the comments here with which I disagree. That's okay.

                        Please do not take offense. I was simply pointing out what I consider to be part of the difficulty with even proposing such a discussion, nothing more. And, absolutely nothing personal. :)

                        Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                        Economic
                        Left/Right: -7.75
                        Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                        by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:51:41 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

      •  This dying of hair (7+ / 0-)

        and claiming he's the joker is just an attempt to throw people off about his true intentions and motives. I'm shocked that so many people are falling for this.

        This guy is not insane (irrational and unable to distinguish right from wrong), but he is mentally disturbed (but a rational thinker capable of distinguishing right from wrong).

        •  We have no idea of his psychological condition. (9+ / 0-)

          These assumptions are just that, assumptions.

          Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

          by Smoh on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:53:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  True (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            devis1, Nulwee, happymisanthropy

            But the point is that there seems to be a variation according to the racial/ethnic background of the purpetrator in the willingness to cite mental illness, as a possible factor or "thug culture."

            And in this particular case, I don't see any thing that points to mental illness, yet that's the most cited possible factor I've seen from cable TV to blogs. The red hair and "joker" comment do not strike me as mental illness. It does strike me as a scripted attempt to obscure intentions/motiviations and throw off the investigation.

          •  I have seen plenty of claims (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            happymisanthropy, grover

            that anyone who could or would do something like this is clearly "insane", and therefore the situation is simple, clear-cut, and merits no more discussion.

            •  Yes. And we probably feel the same way (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Christin

              about such claims.  It is a patently absurd assumption.

              Cats are better than therapy, and I'm a therapist.

              by Smoh on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:32:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  There are people who claim that (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              eru, majcmb1, Mysoreback

              but not everyone who thinks he's insane is using that oversimplified line of reasoning.

              I don't think "anyone" who would commit mass murder is insane (by the legal definition). I think Tim McVeigh knew exactly what he was doing. I know the Virginia Tech shooter was mentally ill, but I think he knew what he was doing.

              But from specific information that we have about this particular case, I think he's probably mentally ill in a way that could allow a legitimate claim of legal insanity.

              Some specifics:

              - He has absolutely no criminal record. We've also seen no reports of violent outbursts (assault, domestic violence, anything) that weren't prosecuted. That suggests he doesn't have a history of poor anger management or impulse control.

              - He has no history of interest in guns or weapons or killing until 3 months ago. He didn't join the military, CIA, or NSA. He didn't try to become a police officer or a security guard. He didn't join the NRA or any local gun club. He's not a militia member. He owned no firearms.

              - He has no known history of sensation-seeking activities. No apparent drug use, extreme sports...not even obsession with violent video games (he's reported to have played role-playing games).

              - He has no history of narcissistic or attention-seeking behaviour. His online presence is nonexistent.

              - He wasn't a recluse. He may be described as quiet, but people knew who he was. He had conversations with colleagues, went to bars with friends.

              - He has no known history of political involvement.

              Basically, this is just not the life history of a violent sociopathic criminal. Not attracted to violence, doesn't seem to think guns are fun, doesn't really like attention, generally law-abiding, good enough self-control to get an honors degree from a good school and go to grad school in science.

              On the other side, we have:

              - Mid-20s male.
              - Possible slight deterioration of professional/academic performance over the previous year.
              - Sudden, drastic change in behaviour at an identifiable time about 3 months ago.
              - Obsession with things and ideas in which he had no previous interest.
              - Recent episode of grandiose, high-risk behaviour completely out of character with no known motive.
              - Fantastical, grandiose stories to explain his actions. Claims he's a fictional supervillain.

              If you handed that description to a psychologist and claimed it was a family member, they would immediately urge you to get him to come in for an evaluation. It would immediately ring the little "bipolar-I" bell in their head, although they'd also want to look for signs of schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder.

              Would we be having this conversation if he were black? Probably not. And it would likely not be be so clear-cut, because young black men are much less likely to avoid all contact with the criminal justice system. Chauncey's racism insights are valuable.

              Nonetheless, I really truly think this guy is ill.

              "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

              by kyril on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:53:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Frankly, anyone who commits murder (12+ / 0-)

                cannot be entirely "healthy". But in the discourse of white privilege, it's only when "normal," otherwise "healthy" and "productive", "promising" white men engage in it that it's considered "unhealthy" or "abnormal".

                The point, seems to me, is that whenever a Black teen is suspected in a case like this, the immediate whitespread assumption is that this was somehow "normal" behavior--for a black kid. So it merits no further investigation. No hand-wringing, no speculation, no nada. We don't wonder about "chemical imbalances" or clinical diagnoses.  

                The idea that Blacks somehow have an innate propensity toward violence is what is at issue here.

                For me, that leads to the question: why is there not this much attention directed at the motives, potential "health" issues, other issues, etc. EVERY SINGLE TIME a Black youth participates in behaviors that would be deemed "unhealthy" in anyone else?

                I don't know how many innocent young black kids were shot and killed this weekend in my neighborhood. We're averaging about 10 per weekend. I can't figure out why I don't have TV cameras, media, medical professionals, experts on mental health, etc. flooding my neighborhood every weekend trying to make sense out of all this killing.

                The only conclusion I can come to, if it's not because people just assume "well, that's what Black folk DO", is that the lives of these Black youth just don't matter enough to pursue the what, why, and how of it.

                They aren't "nice kids. Who grew up in nice neighborhoods."
                They aren't "typical teenagers" with "so much promise" and who are likely to "make significant contributions."
                Nope.
                They're just typical "young black males"--killing each other people  is what they  do.

                It's not some "chemical imbalance", not some "significant mental health issue" that causes them to "start destroying people." Nope. It's just what they do. So there's no need to look into it any further.

                (Most of the phrases in quotes above are taken from this ABC news report--they are indicative of the language of the media and the public have been using to discuss this incident)

                Frankly, if this much energy were EVER invested in getting behind the things that cause young Black men (and women) to engage in many of the unhealthy behaviors they engage in, we might be getting somewhere in stemming the tide of death that washes over my community and many others every. single. weekend.

                Oh, I forgot: those kids aren't "sick", that's just the way they are. It's just what they do.

                •  Yes, that's definitely all true (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jgumby

                  and a serious problem.

                  I'm just asking to draw a distinction between the statement "we wouldn't be talking about his mental status if he weren't white" (true) and the statement "we're talking about his mental status because he's white" (not necessarily true).

                  The lesson we should take from this isn't that we should stop discussing the mental health of white men, but that we should start discussing the mental health of black men. We have far too many black men in prison, and we also have far too many people with mental illness in prison, and there are an awful lot of people belonging to both groups, many of whom aren't even diagnosed until after they're convicted.

                  We need screening. We need treatment. And we need prevention. Mostly, we just need money - we need to invest financially and emotionally in young black men and women.

                  "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                  by kyril on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:04:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Agreed (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kyril

                    I'd only add that we have far too many white guys going off their nut with guns and mowing people down en mass. That ought to be looked into tool. Particularly since it is a fantasy wide spread among avowed white supremacists as well.

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:31:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Why? (0+ / 0-)

                How do you leap to the conclusion that, had the assailant been Black, we would not be having this discussion? Or even "probably not"?

                That's race baiting, in my view. It's not cultural, or societal, or historical. It's your words, today, in this diary.

                I find it much more plausible to presume that we do not know, definitively, the first thing about the mentation of this assailant. To presume that he would get a "pass" because of his race is just indefensible. I'm not talking about anything but this diary, these comments, and the seeming rush to judgment on every possible aspect of this case.

                Which is more dangerous to a society? And why do it in a diary which at least portends to address such a serious and pivotal issue?

                I just don't get it.

                Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                Economic
                Left/Right: -7.75
                Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:09:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Excellent analysis (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kyril, Smoh

                My mom was treated for Psychosis at the age of 64 and is now back to normal. For a long time (almost 30 years), she was mis-diagnosed and had heavy anti-depressants to take care of the mood swings and voices. I think that the absence of a family member to observe these mood changes and bring them to the attention of a good doctor, was probably a telling factor. I would want the results of the verbal exam he took before conclusively arriving at a reason for this deterioration...

        •  He may have been enacting a paranoid fantasy... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tracker, eru

          but then something changed...

          he surrendered, rather than kill cops...

          and then confessed to the booby-trapped apartment, BEFORE more people were killed.

          That to me suggests he was capable of recognizing that he didn't WANT to go through with the whole plan (whatever it was, we may never know).

          I agree with your assessment.

        •  you should stop playing a doctor on Kos. (0+ / 0-)

          it's annoying.
          you have NO idea what his mental state was.
          if he is mentally ill, or not.
          so stop making definitive statements that he is not.
          and is faking it.
          what the h- are you sitting next to him watching him?

          We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

          by Christin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:31:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, this is bullshit. He bought a ticket like (0+ / 0-)

        everyone else and wasn't in any of his tactical gear.

        Just quit spreading shit. Enough of it gets spread as it is.

        Try and use the facts. It's just so much better.

        His hair has fuck all to do with it.

      •  For all we know, that's purely dust thrown (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, ankae

        into the authorities' eyes.

        Holmes is very smart. He may simple be playing with the cops. Or he may not care to reveal himself as he truly is by telling the truth.

        Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

        by Sirenus on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:02:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  He told the police (0+ / 0-)

      he was the Joker.  

      Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

      by delphine on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:44:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He told the arresting officers at the mall parking (0+ / 0-)

      lot that he was the joker.

      Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

      by OIL GUY on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:25:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He had RED HAIR! (0+ / 0-)

      I can not remember any incarnations of red headed Jokers.

      Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:44:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Thanks Chauncey, a very important (27+ / 0-)

    point that no one is bringing up (that I've seen). I would welcome an in-depth discussion of your perspective. If only some people would stop changing the subject...

    „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

    by translatorpro on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:19:18 PM PDT

  •  Recently discussed (14+ / 0-)

    with a white (male) life-long recreational drug user: do you not believe that if you were black, you would have been through the prison system long ago?

    Find me the black equivalent of Hunter Thompson.

  •  This (57+ / 0-)
    The freedom to kill, maim, commit wanton acts of violence, and to be anti-social (as well as pathological) without having your actions reflect on your own racial group, is one of the ultimate, if not in fact most potent, examples of White Privilege in post civil rights era America. Instead of a national conversation where we reflect on what has gone wrong with young white men in our society--a group which apparently possesses a high propensity for committing acts of mass violence--James Holmes will be framed as an outlier.
    This is the racial element in the room.

    The other day someone was trying to deflect from this by arguiing that if race were going to be an issue then we had to talk about how "most gun violence is committed by Blacks." (might have been Black men.)  Nothing but crickets when I asked for a DOJ or FBI link to support that claim, which was repeated more than once.  But what else is new.

    Your piece reminds me of a similar piece written by Tim Wise 11 years ago  in response to the usual shock and dismay reaction when yet another white man storms in somewhere with a gun and shoots and kills a whole bunch of people that have a tenuous relationship with his actual source of angst (something that I believe less than a handful of Black males or females have ever been accused of doing in this type of shoot-as-many-people-as-possible and let God sort it out way).  So it deserves a link, Tim's words, about the ongoing exercise of white privilege in rendering these mass murdering whites as outliers and individuals that say nothing about their race as a whole even as the minute a Black person spits on the sidewalk all us "negroes" are once asked to "fix" our people's problems since it's "clear" that "we" have a problem:

    School Shootings and White Denial

  •  Can't be this selective (23+ / 0-)

    The DC shooters were both black, and they didn't set off a wave of anti-black sentiment. They were judged as being what they were - two killers, run amok.

    The Virginia tech shooter didn't set off a flood of anti-Korean rhetoric - he was seen as a lone crazy.

    The Muslim who attacked his fellow soldiers on that Army base did raise questions about Islamic extremism (he did have ties to a jihadist figure) but even that didn't seem to spread to anything wider because he, too, was generally seen to be a lone crazy.

    Looking at your timeline, one can see that these kinds of events occur about once every 5 to 10 years. In a nation of 300 million, it's statistically inevitable.

    Also, we can make a division between serial killers and these kinds of criminals. The etiology is different. The killer who wants to kill in secret and toy with his prey is not the psycho who wants to go out in a blaze of horror.

    I find it uninteresting to look at the racial component here nearly as much as I'm curious about the relationship between these kinds of criminals and the media. It's pretty clear that a big component of what is driving them involves the press coverage that will follow their crimes.

    In that, they seek to make us complicit or involved in an intimate way with their actions.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to the man. - dls

    by The Raven on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:25:47 PM PDT

    •  however (29+ / 1-)

      there were discussions about black muslims in light of the DC rampage, and after the Tech shooting there were discussions about Korean men and the pressure of academic achievement. Of course these actions are "inevitable" a word I hate, but there is no engagement with the fact that this is a crime endemic to white men--like serial killing--and this fact is glossed over precisely because of how race, privilege, and notions of "normality" intersect.

      Likewise we talk about "black crime" all of the time, but never about "white crime." Part of a national delusion.

    •  But more to the point of the diary (14+ / 0-)

      we didn't start profiling people like Tim McVeigh after Oklahoma City, but we do profile people with middle eastern names or appearance.  An obvious bias as this diary is pointing out.

      I guarantee you they aren't pulling white guys with crewcuts out of line at the airport.

       

      Why is it that a 3% tax increase for the wealthy is considered "socialism" and an 8% wage cut for the middle class is "doing your part"? MartyM

      by delphine on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:59:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  this..... (0+ / 0-)

      the biggest difference though is the DC Sniper and Ft Hood were deemed terrorism....none of the other were..

      so you are both right...Chauncey's larger point of how the rampages are perceived is guided somewhat by race....but there are groupings....

      btw-this was clearly an act of terrorism...only in the messed up society could people convince themselves that it isn't....I have seen more than enough people say they are scared to go to this movie or others to tell me this act of terrorism was unfortunately successful....

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:23:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But the DC sniper was not terrorism...... (0+ / 0-)

        Investigations proved he was terrorizing his ex wife who took their children and was hiding in DC.

        All the killings were in reasonably close proximity where she was living at the time. His plan was to eventually kill her....the subliminal message was she will never be safe

        This is our moment...this is our time! President Barack Obama

        by ankae on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 07:14:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Is this snark? I can't tell.. (0+ / 0-)

          or was this the actual outcome...regardless, that is still terrorism and it was called as such all over the media

          "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

          by justmy2 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:36:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  There was reason to deem (0+ / 0-)

        Fort Hood terrorism. They guy had recent email contact with a figure who was famous for advocating terrorist attacks against the United States. Yelling "Allahu Akbar" probably didn't  help things, either.  

        •  Muslim = Terrorism? (0+ / 0-)

          You just kind of made the point....

          What if someone recited the lord's prayer?  Not terrorism?

          you seem to have bought into some type of crazy redefinition of the term terrorism where is only related to the acts of Muslim crazy folks or Black crazy folks...

          I unequivocally reject that newspeak.

          "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

          by justmy2 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:38:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no (0+ / 0-)

            But exchanging 19 emails with a person who has been advocating terrorist attacks against the United States, including one saying "I can't wait to join you in the afterlife" and yelling a phrase that certain terrorists use when they are conducting their attacks certainly makes it reasonable to think that terrorism is involved.  
               Here on Duos, we'd have no problem with labeling a white Christian male who exchanged 19 emails with a "pro lifer" who posted internet videos calling for clinic bombings and assassination of abortion providers and who when committing an attack on a clinic shouting "By the Blood of the Lamb" or some such thing, a terrorist.  

            •  Here a dkos we have no problem labeling aurora (0+ / 0-)

              Yelling Allah Akbar didn't make it terrorism. The act of terrorism did.

              Reread your original cOmment and consider the implication of all of your words.   You may not have intended it, but you seemed to imply the fact that he declared himself Muslim was part of the criteria for knowing it was terrorism.   That is very bad and dangerous logic.  

              "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

              by justmy2 on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 05:04:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Not exactly (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      poco, boriquasi
      Looking at your timeline, one can see that these kinds of events occur about once every 5 to 10 years. In a nation of 300 million, it's statistically inevitable.
      More like:
      According to an ongoing tally kept by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, the United States is experiencing an average of around 20 mass shootings each year. While Friday morning’s incident inside of a Aurora movie theater has perhaps the unfortunate distinction of being the most violent in recent memory — taking no fewer than 12 lives and injuring around 50 more — it is only yet only one example out of many that has marred society this year.

      Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

      by Fogiv on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:26:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read the Brady report (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Otteray Scribe, PavePusher, 43north

        And I found they get that number by counting any shooting with more than one person killed or wounded as a "mass shooting".

        No wonder they are discredited as an objective source.

        "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

        by happy camper on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:33:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  what's a fair number of murders to classify 'mass' (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger, boriquasi

          ...in your estimation?

          Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

          by Fogiv on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:00:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There is an official (9+ / 0-)

            definition.

            According to the FBI, mass murder is defined as four or more murders occurring during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders. A mass murder typically occurs in a single location in which a number of victims are killed by an individual or more.
            As you can see, a couple of people hurt during a robbery does not meet the standard.

            Brady lies to further their agenda. That's why they are not a good source.

            "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

            by happy camper on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 05:05:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I see. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              boriquasi

              Then there's no problem with gun-related violence in America.

              Tuscaloosa, AL
              July 17, 2012
              A gunman stood outside of a crowded downtown bar and opened fire from two different positions early Tuesday, sending patrons running or crawling for cover. At least 17 people were hurt. Nathan Van Wilkins, 44, surrendered about 10 hours after the shooting near the
              University of Alabama campus, police said. Authorities believe one of the bar patrons was a target of the rampage and that it was connected to an earlier shooting at a home. (Alabama shooting suspect surrenders, SFGate, July 17 2012)
              17 wounded.  Does not qaualify.  Moving on.
              Dover, DE
              July 9, 2012
              At a weekend soccer tournament in Delaware three people died and two were wounded. The dead included the tournament organizer, a 16-year-old boy participating in the tournament and one of three suspects alleged to have initiated the deadly violence Sunday afternoon at a park near downtown Wilmington. (3 dead after gunfire at Del. soccer tournament, AP, July 9 2012)
              Meh, only three dead bodies.  Does not qualify.  Moving on.
              Brady lies to further their agenda.
              Mission Statement:
              We are devoted to creating an America free from gun violence, where all Americans are safe at home, at school, at work, and in our communities.

              The Brady Campaign works to pass and enforce sensible federal and state gun laws, regulations, and public policies through grassroots activism, electing public officials who support common sense gun laws, and increasing public awareness of gun violence. Through our Million Mom March and Brady Chapters, we work locally to educate people about the dangers of guns, honor victims of gun violence, and pass sensible gun laws, believing that all Americans, especially children, have the right to live free from the threat of gun violence.

              The Brady Center works to reform the gun industry by enacting and enforcing sensible regulations to reduce gun violence, including regulations governing the gun industry. In addition, we represent victims of gun violence in the courts. We educate the public about gun violence through litigation, grassroots mobilization, and outreach to affected communities.

              Generally, isn't this something liberals, progressives, and Democrats would support?

              Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

              by Fogiv on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:58:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you have a problem (10+ / 0-)

                with the definition take it up with the FBI. You asked for information, I supplied it.

                You're welcome.

                Brady is dishonest. They have been caught many times exaggerating and misrepresenting data. Good policy must be based on reality, and Brady does gun control proponents no favors when they lie. Surely you can see that?

                And for the record, I believe the NRA is just as bad. I don't trust their data either, and would never quote them to support anything.

                "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

                by happy camper on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 09:30:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thank you. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  boriquasi, oldpunk

                  I don't have a problem with the definition, and though I appreciate your providing it, it does not answer my question.  

                  It is my opinion that the statment to which I originally responded unnecesarily minimizes the scope and scale of gun related violence in this country, specifically with respect to events in which multiple (i.e. more than one) people are killed or wounded. While the definition you've provided shows that the Brady Campaign employs a lower threshold than the FBI to tabulate data in the classification of events as 'mass shootings', it doesn't undermine the data itself.  Regardless of how the events are classified, all of those things still happened.  Surely, you can see that? My question was rhetorical, and its purpose was to underscore the notion that mass shootings, however we choose to define them, occur with alarming frequency. I'm sorry that wasn't more clear.

                  Good policy must be based on reality.
                  I agree, and the raw data reflects a reality that need be better addressed (regardless of technical event classification). I don't see any equivalence between the Brady Campaign and the NRA, and fail to see how the former's agenda (tactical exxageration aside) is at odds with the reality of gun related violence in the United States.  

                   

                  Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

                  by Fogiv on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 10:19:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "tactical exxageration" is justified when you wish (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    oldpunk, theatre goon, wishbone

                    to curtail an unalienable right?

                    How does this mentality effect all of our other unalienable rights?  

                    Was it okay for the police to "exaggerate" to justify the mass arrests of people protesting the Republican National Convention?  Innocent people walking their dogs were swept up, but that's okay?  Because their ultimate goal was to dissuade Americans from becoming politically active, right?

                    When you are dishonest about the actual numbers there cannot be legitimate discussion or solutions.  How do we know if there really is such a horrendous problem that needs to be addressed?

                    How does the "problem" get defined if we don't have the correct figures?

                    http://www.nsc.org/...

                    Lifetime odds of death for selected causes,
                    United States, 2008*

                    Cancer 1 in 7
                    Stroke 1 in 29
                    Motor vehicle incidents 1 in 98
                    Intentional self-harm 1 in 109
                    Unintentional poisoning by and exposure to noxious substances 1 in 126
                    Falls 1 in 163
                    Assault by Firearm 1 in 321
                    Car occupant 1 in 368
                    Pedestrian 1 in 701
                    Motorcycle rider 1 in 761
                    Accidental drowning and submersion 1 in 1,103
                    Exposure to smoke, fire, and flames 1 in 1,344
                    Pedalcyclist 1 in 4,381
                    Firearms discharge 1 in 6,609
                    Air and space transport incidents 1 in 7,178
                    Exposure to electric current, radiation, temperature, and pressure 1 in 12,420
                    Exposure to excessive natural heat 1 in 13,217
                    Cataclysmic storm 1 in 29,196
                    Contact with hornets, wasps, and bees 1 in 79,842
                    Earthquake and other earth movements 1 in 97,807
                    Legal execution 1 in 111,779
                    Lightning 1 in 134,906
                    Bitten or struck by dog 1 in 144,899
                    Flood 1 in 558,896
                    Fireworks discharge 1 in 652,046

                    How about we discuss real problems?

                    Say like Infant Mortality?

                    On average 28,000 children die each year under 1 yr of age.

                    Statistically speaking let's compare our chances of dying from a terrorist attack:

                    -- You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack

                    -- You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack

                    -- You are 11,000 times more likely to die in an airplane accident than from a terrorist plot involving an airplane

                    -- You are 1048 times more likely to die from a car accident than from a terrorist attack

                    --You are 404 times more likely to die in a fall than from a terrorist attack

                    -- You are 87 times more likely to drown than die in a terrorist attack

                    -- You are 13 times more likely to die in a railway accident than from a terrorist attack

                    --You are 12 times more likely to die from accidental suffocation in bed than from a terrorist attack

                    --You are 9 times more likely to choke to death on your own vomit than die in a terrorist attack

                    --You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist

                    --You are 8 times more likely to die from accidental electrocution than from a terrorist attack

                    -- You are 6 times more likely to die from hot weather than from a terrorist attack

                    SOURCE: The Progressive Review

                    So, with some numbers and analysis provided above, I ask again, what's the true magnitude of this problem if there really is one??? Without the actual numbers we can't know, can we???

                    -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                    by gerrilea on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 12:34:53 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Uhhhh... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Brit
                      When you are dishonest about the actual numbers there cannot be legitimate discussion or solutions.
                      The numbers are there, and they don't lie. The nit-picking has to do with how those statistics are classified (i.e. whether or not they count as 'mass shootings').  That's all an excercise in deck chair decorating. The unassaible fact is this: Compared to its most direct equivalents -- affluent nations in Europe and Asia -- the U.S. has far more gun homicides.

                      That's just the truth of it.  You can say that's not a problem, you can say you don't care, you can say that's it's 'the price of freedom' (I'd disagree on all counts, but that's neither here nor there) but what you cannot do is deny the most basic raw facts of the issue.

                      The remainder of your response is fascinating, but in this context it's nothing more than hand waving.

                      Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

                      by Fogiv on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 01:56:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The CDC and every statistician have stated (0+ / 0-)

                        that comparing countries like you just did is meaningless and non-productive and IMO, dishonest emotional manipulation to further an untenable position.

                        Social values are not equal.  

                        Prime example: When I was in Italy, I rarely saw a drunk Italian, yet their children are allowed to drink at family gathers and special events.  

                        Go to any bar in America on a Friday night and you're going to find the majority are trashed...public intoxication is "fun", it's cool, it's the "norm".

                        The Japanese have a higher suicide rate than we do and they are barred from private ownership of guns.

                        This isn't 4th Grade where we are competing with and comparing our results with schools across town.  

                        When we compare the claimed numbers for firearm deaths its not even close to auto deaths.  There is a huge difference between the unalienable right to bear arms and the privilege to drive a motor vehicle, yet this society accepts the consequences for these actions.

                        The social costs, the environmental costs and the international costs of waging wars for oil have killed millions. IN FACT, the environmental impacts are going to kill us all (including the majority of animal life) but that's okay right???

                        Americans represent less than 25% of the worlds population but we consume over 75% of its resources.

                        If it's about the numbers then let's be honest here, we Americans are killing this planet, is it any wonder we are killing each other too???  I could truly care less what the Egyptians, the British or any other foreign nation does or doesn't do, unless it effects us.  As Americans we have conquered the world in every historically meaningful way.  Now what are we going to do about it?

                        Are you going to give up your motor vehicle? Are you going to stop buying "stuff"? Are you going to be your neighbor's keeper?  Are you going to teach your children peace? Are you going to practice it?  Will you demand that our military industrial complex be dismantled and the criminals be prosecuted?  Including our bought and paid for Congress critters???

                        Or are you going to continue to say it's all about the guns while our fellow Americans consume 80% of the worlds pharmaceuticals while destroying the planet and each other in the process???

                        I'm game for an honest discussion here, are you???

                        The guns are a symptom of a failed society, not the cause.

                        -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                        by gerrilea on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 03:36:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  There are many other failed societies (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Fogiv

                          ...with much worse economic problems, and with a much lower murder rate. (Attempted murders in Europe are basically the same per capita as the US)

                          A failing society, as you put it, awash with weapons, is also going to be even worse.

                          The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out July 30

                          by Brit on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 05:41:12 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Sorry, more hand waving (0+ / 0-)

                          Please provide a link to the CDC and/or any reputable statistician positing cross-cultural comparison as 'meaningless' and/or 'non-productive'. That we have higher rates of murder and gun violence than our international peers is far from meaningless, and discussion of that reality is far from non-productive unless...

                          You are making an assumption. Here it is:

                          ...are you going to continue to say it's all about the guns
                          This is not a position I've taken. Not once. Not ever.
                          Social values are not equal.
                          No shit. I'm an Anthropologist by training, and probably understand the sociocultural differences between the United States and the remainder of the world (both ancient and contemporary) as well or better than most. The comparative data with respect to gun-related violence here versus rates abroad is instructive, even accounting for (in some instances vast) cultural disparities. If you intend to suggest that our greatly increased rate of gun violence is purely the result of cultural differences, or that it has nothing to do with the accessibility of firearms, I believe you are wrong.

                          I'll not be responding to the rest of your comment, as strawman jujitsu is an event I find tiresome to watch, much less participate in.  However, this...

                          The guns are a symptom of a failed society, not the cause.
                          ...is something I'd generally agree with, and I have a nuanced agreement with the proposition that 'guns don't kill people, people do'. I'm also a gun owner, and I hold a concealed weapons permit (though admittedly, I rarely carry).
                          I'm game for an honest discussion here, are you???
                          Sure. We can talk about the 2nd Amendment, or debate whether restricting weapons is the most effective approach in reducing violent deaths, or examine policy state by state, if you want to -- that's all worth discussing, but a failure to recognize the rate of gun violence in the United States as a real problem is anything but honest.

                          Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

                          by Fogiv on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 06:04:28 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Fair enough....I respect the honest reply (0+ / 0-)

                            I am unable to find the original link to the studies done by either the CDC or the WHO...at the beginning of the reports I read they stated that comparing gun violence across nations was not productive nor should be attempted.  Google is being finicky right now...all I get are a zillion articles on the current shooting in Aurora.  

                            The simple fact is that if you ban something, of course the incidence of a crime with said object will be reduced.  This is circular logic.

                            Our alienable rights are non-negotiable, this is the position I've always held as a lifelong registered and voting progressive democrat.  If we are a Constitutional Republic, as we've been told.  Our government must follow the rules we gave it or it isn't legitimate.  "Administrative" constraints and "rules" are not law but seem to carry the force of said.  This is very dangerous to the ideals of freedom and equity under law.  We've gone so far down the rabbit hole that I find it almost impossible to believe we will ever regain the freedoms we had just 100 short years ago.  

                            I provide this background for understanding of where I stand on many issues.  If we collectively believe that our gov't should do X, Y or Z, then we must do so through legitimate constitutional avenues and historical facts not wait for someone in a black robe to deem said actions valid or invalid.

                            When the mantra is that the only way to reduce gun violence is to restrict or ban them, as a historian, I cringe from the bottom of my very soul.  History is replete with these moves "justified" for various reasons, always leading to tyranny and despotism.

                            If we wish to curtail gun violence, then let's do it in a way that does not abrogate our rights.  Since we have that unalienable right, we must accept it or utilize Article V provisions of our current Constitution.  Even if this were accomplished, then we'd have to change over 40 State Constitutions that also have it included.

                            Alas, an insurmountable task many say, that is simply the truth, but if the majority agree, nothing is impossible.   But why wait when we don't have to?

                            I'd say we've already granted our created gov't the power to address the issues of violence.  We grant them the power to educate, help the poor, destitute and the mentally unstable.

                            FUND these things like our lives depend on it...Is it any wonder that we spend 54 cents out of every tax dollar on military and we have become a violent society as a result???  IS IT???

                            Prosecute the corrupt military industrial complex and it's minions in Congress that have conditioned us into being violent.  You can't have an empire if you don't have cannon fodder willing to fight for you.  

                            This is the true cause, IMO, as to why we have such violence throughout our society.  We are continually inundated with obscene and senseless acts of violence in TV, movies, cartoons and video games.  

                            As an Anthropologist surely you recognize this.  You become what you see and experience.  I present myself as a prime example of that conditioning.  I became the person I detested the most growing up...a violent alcoholic like my father.  Years of therapy brought me out of that. Thankfully I've been sober for over 23 yrs.

                            What does history tell of the ancient Greek City-States? The ones that survived, did so by continual militaristic training of its citizens.  We get the Olympics from this mentality, whereby the best would come together to show off their abilities to do battle.

                            You can ban any and all objects that can be used by those disposed and conditioned to be violent but the killings will continue.  

                            We have so many avenues of opportunity here that do not violate our constitution, so why even attempt it?

                            We could teach our children to have reasoned critical thoughts. We could teach them logic.  We could teach them personal responsibility.  We could teach them peace.  We, ourselves, could actually live it.  How much of our military industrial complex could survive in a society or a world that was truly peaceful?

                            These things are far more attainable than continuing down an authoritarian path that will surely lead to another American Revolution, really.

                            This is the "adult conversation" I've been waiting for.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 08:24:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  You know who else... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    rockhound, wishbone

                    ...engages in "tactical exxageration?"

                    Republicans.  The NRA.  Rush Limbaugh.

                    Except, most of us call this "lying."

                    Good to know you're okay with it, when it suits your purposes.

                    Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

                    by theatre goon on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 04:10:48 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't approve of it, Goon (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      boriquasi, Brit

                      However, the Brady Campaign's use of it in no way places them on par with the NRA or Rush.  That's flatly ridiculous, and I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth -- especially when they're so stupid.

                      Further, as I said before, the underlying base data remains the same. However you classify them, I believe far too may Americans die violent deaths as a result of firearms.

                      Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

                      by Fogiv on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 01:38:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  P.S. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      boriquasi, Brit

                      I strongly support the 2nd Amendment, and am a gun owner myself. In fact, between my bother, father, and myself, we own over 150 weapons (rifles, shotguns, and handguns).

                      Good to know you're okay with it, when it suits your purposes.
                      You don't know shit about 'my purposes'.

                      Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics

                      by Fogiv on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 01:42:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Also, IIRC, their claims of "children"... (7+ / 0-)

          go up to age 23 or 24, yes?

  •  you going to start down the racial path... (9+ / 0-)

    be ready to talk about gangs, minorities and violence too.

    the kid spent 15k on weapons, ammo, and body armor. I am guessing it had less to do with him being white and more to do with him having the resources to purchase what was needed to carry out the massacre.

     

    As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

    by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:31:22 PM PDT

    •  the claim is not about whiteness as causality (39+ / 1-)

      it is about whiteness as the freedom to be an individual. class is of course part of this story too. privileged kids are "troubled" and "in need of help" black and brown youth are criminals who should be locked up without excuse-making or soul searching.

      •  Not about black and white... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Saint Jimmy

        This is not about black and white, it's about apples and oranges.

        There are more white kids than black that engage in garden variety, run-of-the-mill street murders.  And there are more white kids than black that go on shooting sprees.

        It's demographics.

        But the motivation behind these two forms of violence are vastly, vastly different.

      •  class is the story (7+ / 0-)

        poor white boys don't get counseling either. No one tries to figure out why the biker was selling heroin and killing people.

        When you make it about race you end up dividing people. When you make in about class you have a chance to unite people across racial lines to fight together to get a bigger piece of the pie.

        the hand wringing about why a person who appears as normal all of a sudden stockpiles weapons and kills 12 people in a crowded theater is much more romantic then saying the obvious,  we need to legalize drugs, tax the rich more to lift people out of poverty and work to counsel drug addicts so they can be productive members of society. If we did all that we would curb violence a lot more than about crazy white boys, and how privileged those white boys are.  

        As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

        by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:42:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  race and class intersect, however you (25+ / 1-)

          need to be honest about how race over-determines life chances in this country and how the colorline is real.

          all this "don't talk about race stuff" is ironically a white supremacist enabling narrative. amateur young spartacist types love that dribble.

          "When you make it about race you end up dividing people."

          Diagnosing the problem is not the social evil here; I do not live a life of willful denial or kumbaya liberal racism.

          •  you brought race into this incident... (3+ / 0-)

            you are trying to say race had something to do with this killing. Race had very little to do with this., but you keep trying.

            As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

            by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:49:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  up your reading comprehension please (21+ / 1-)

              read what i wrote carefully and then comment. i am making an observation about how news is framed and that race is central to it. there is a ton of literature on this very obvious fact.

              start with the black image in the white mind. the collection race and the news is also very good here.

              •  you tried to make it about race when it was not... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW, Saint Jimmy

                Like i said before, if you start talking about race then you end up down a slippery slope where all black kids are gun toting gangsters and all white boys are spree killers and all Arabs have bombs strapped to their chests. Don't make it about race unless you are ready to lump everyone into their boxes and call it a day.

                As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

                by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:59:33 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  race is real (7+ / 0-)

                  hopeful dreamings ain't gonna change it. as i have written here many times race is a true lie. to pretend otherwise is to engage in an act of willful denial.

                  •  i didn't deny race (5+ / 0-)

                    But race has very little to do with this killing. You don't get it. You are being willfully obtuse. Knock it off.

                    As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

                    by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:05:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  more grumpy talk (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      OIL GUY, blueness

                      what are you afraid of?

                      •  it is not a fear thing (4+ / 0-)

                        I don't fear talking about race. In this fucking case race is not relevant.

                        As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

                        by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:31:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  race and crime are always relevant (5+ / 0-)

                          why the profanity? why the unwillingness to engage in a critical and intellectual fashion about this issue? what are you afraid of?

                          •  No fear. I am done (0+ / 0-)

                            As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

                            by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:50:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  except when it's not...didn't you write a diary (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jbou, badger, Christin

                            awhile back whose premise was that national crime statistics that identify violent crime by the race of the perpetrator prove nothing, except that our judicial system targets minorities more strenuously?

                            Ergo...you can't fairly draw any conclusions at all about what demographic is statistically more likely to be involved in violent acts?

                            Which is it, then?  Relevant or irrelevant?

                            Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

                            by Keith930 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:12:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i am not attributing his whiteness or white (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            doroma, poco

                            male identity as causal to his shooting rampage. that is a sloppy read on your part. my point here is about media framing and race around these issues.

                          •  no, it's not a sloppy read (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Christin

                            I'm not responding to your diary.  I'm responding to your assertion that "crime and race are always relevant."

                            Except when it's not.

                            Oregon: Sure...it's cold. But it's a damp cold.

                            by Keith930 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:44:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  in this country race and crime (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sethtriggs, blueness, Fogiv

                            are deeply and intimately related in how they are framed, how laws are written, and the way that the law is enforced.

                            i did not say x killed all these people because he is y race.

                            what I will stand on is that the law is a social construct; in a society stained by inequalities of race and power, and where white supremacy was written into its founding document, that yes, race and the law will intersect.

                            check out the book A Theory of African American Offending--there is a great interview with the author online too. Never mind the much discussed New Jim Crow by Alexander, the Color of Crime, and Slavery by Another Name.

                            Foucault in discipline and punish is integral to seeing the law as a function of power and privilege as opposed to something "natural."

                          •  I'm probably going to regret this (0+ / 0-)

                            but here goes.

                            ...where white supremacy was written into its founding document, that yes, race and the law will intersect.
                            Where exactly do you find white supremacy written into the Constitution? I assume that's the document you're referring to.

                            Let me save you some time. I'm aware of the scholarly and political debates over this question. I'm curious as to why you treat your view as an established fact rather than as a disputed argument.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:50:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  3/5ths clause (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fogiv, poco

                            explicit language extending the slave trade to make up for Southern losses, etc.

                            and language such as "all other persons"....who would that be?

                            not hard to find. not a real debate among serious historians.

                            start out w. Foner, Hahn, Howe, and others. If you want to read some CRT stuff look at Mills.

                            have you ever read The Constitution, the whole document?

                             

                          •  Yep I read the Constitution (0+ / 0-)

                            specifically to research this question as a matter of fact. I also read the Dred Scott decision and it's dissents as well as Lincoln's public attacks on it. What's curious to me is that those who argue for your position seemingly adopt Chief Justice Taney's arguments while ignoring those of the opponents of Dred Scott.

                            One thing is indisputable as historic fact. There was no national consensus on this question at the time of the Scott decision. If there had been, it would have been unnecessary for Taney to make an argument for slavery's constitutionality in the first place and his ruling wouldn't have excited the backlash that contributed so significantly to the outbreak of civil war.

                            No less a figure than the Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens contradicted the view that White Supremacy was written into the US Constitution. In his notorious "Cornerstone" speech he identified the assertion of the equality of all men as the fatal flaw in the original Union. Against this he celebrated the Confederacy as correcting this flaw by being the first government to be establish on the "great truth"
                            of white supremacy.

                            Then there's the fact that your own citations contain no race criteria, or any direct reference to to slavery for that matter. If the consensus of the framers was to establish white supremacy, I rather think they would have said so. Likewise, if they had intended to establish slavery as a national and perpetual institution I think they would have said so.

                            What they did do, to their eternal discredit, is agree to not interfere with slavery and thus enabled it. That is the heart of the argument for those who say slavery was written into the Constitution despite the fact that the word appears no where in the document. That the Constitution recognized slavery De facto if not De jure.  Of course the Constitution is a De jure document so this is a distinction with a difference.

                            In any case, even if we accept this argument, it proves nothing vis a vis white supremacy as a first principle. White supremacy grew out of slavery. Slavery didn't grow out of white supremacy.

                                   

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:42:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that is a joke, i hope.. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco, zizi

                            "Then there's the fact that your own citations contain no race criteria, or any direct reference to to slavery for that matter. "

                            Who the heck would be counted as 3/5ths? Who were those people? Who was included in the expansion of the slave trade? Who were the framers--slave owners and some of the richest men in the country. The Constitution is a pro-slavery Southern document. It was also an economic document.

                            That is not to say that if the country could continue to exist divided between "free" and "slave" in perpetuity.

                            The framers and those at the Constitutional convention certainly knew that slavery was central to the document. Check out the actual transcriptions of the proceedings.

                            The united states was born dysfunctional and racist. There are serious historians--widely respected prize winning ones--who would agree in much the same way that it is foolish to argue that gravity does not exist.

                            The Constitution is a political document that enfranchised one group of people--property owning white men--and excluded others because they were not "fit" for citizenship and the franchise. Read Jeffersons Notes on the State of Virginia if you want a sample of their racist bonafides.

                            The story of democracy in this country has been one of expansion. At its founding the country was explicitly a racist one and the "framers" would have found any suggestion to the contrary absurd.

                            Check out the late Joel Olson's book The Abolition of White Democracy or Charles' Mills very accessible The Racial Contract.

                            "Slavery didn't grow out of white supremacy."

                            White supremacy and racism worked together and grew together to legitimate chattel slavery in the Americas--a condition unprecedented in human history. And yes, slavery is an ancient human institution, the particular type of black enslavement in the Americas and the invention of philosophical, political, social, religious, economic, and other doctrines to sustain it was revolutionary.

                            Orlando Patterson's slavery and social death will help you there. The BBC's great series on racism and slavery is also very helpful too.

                          •  No I am not joking. (0+ / 0-)

                            If I were I wouldn't have cited historical fact and documentation, none of which you've seen fit to address.

                            Who the heck would be counted as 3/5ths? Who were those people? Who was included in the expansion of the slave trade? Who were the framers--slave owners and some of the richest men in the country. The Constitution is a pro-slavery Southern document. It was also an economic document.
                            Obviously the 3/5ths clause refers to slaves. The question arises as to why they didn't just say so. The answer is that to have done so would have given indisputable Constitutional standing to property in slaves and that was something on which the framers could not find consensus. Likewise the language of "persons held to service" which would have applied to to indentured and apprenticed labor as well as slaves. If the Constitution were the unabashedly Southern, pro-slavery document that some claim, the framers would hardly have failed to give it explicit rather than oblique sanction.

                            Can you point out where you think the Constitution expanded the slave trade? I've been looking it over while writing this and I can't seem to find it.

                            The framers and those at the Constitutional convention certainly knew that slavery was central to the document. Check out the actual transcriptions of the proceedings.
                            There are no "actual transcriptions" of the proceedings. The Constitutional Convention kept no official record of it's debates and deliberations. What exists are fragmentary, individual accounts written after the fact and entirely subject to the bias, opinions and partisan agendas of their authors. Could those be what you're thinking of? If so, they're mainly evidence of the subjective take of those who wrote them.

                            I'm aware that there are historians who agree with you, just as I'm aware that there are historians who do not. That should be evident from the fact that I was able to foresee that you would make the De facto - De jure argument. I will say that most historians I'm familiar with who make this argument do so by simply ignoring any evidence that contradicts their preferred narrative. In my opinion they confuse history with moral fable.

                            For myself I do not adopt the predigested opinions of professional historians, however appealing their narratives may be. I prefer to examine contending views in the light of reading the relevant documents in their contemporary context.

                            The Constitution is a political document that enfranchised one group of people--property owning white men--and excluded others because they were not "fit" for citizenship and the franchise. Read Jeffersons Notes on the State of Virginia if you want a sample of their racist bonafides.
                            Yes the Constitution is a political document but can you point to where it states that only property owning white males may vote?

                            This is a good example of how not to read history. Thomas Jefferson was a number things but he wasn't a framer of the Constitution. At the time of the convention he was ambassador to France and took no part in its deliberations. Whatever Jefferson's Notes may tell us, they are worthless in regard to the actions and character of the Constitutional convention.

                            Btw, if we are going to make the point that the framers included slave owners, we ought to admit that they included early abolitionists as well, Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Hamilton for two.

                            I read Olsen's book quite some time ago and as I recall it had a good bit of value in it. I don't recall it making the case that you evidently think it does or if it did, I must not have found it convincing.

                            White supremacy and racism worked together and grew together to legitimate chattel slavery in the Americas--a condition unprecedented in human history.
                            Chattel slavery was an established fact in human affairs requiring no such legitimization. The general view is that color based racism began as a conscious policy to divide freed and enslaved Africans from indentured Brits following Bacon's Rebellion. If you're looking for the taproot of white supremacy that's where you'll find it.

                            White Supremacy as a political doctrine didn't emerge until the early 19th century. Prior to this apologists for slavery had argued that it was an existing evil beyond remedy. After this, they increasingly argued that it was a positive good.

                            I appreciate your book suggestions. Do you think any of them will answer the points I've raised?

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 01:20:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  white supremacy was established as early as (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zizi

                            the 18th century roughly. perhaps even back to the 17th century with the laws founded after Bacon's rebellion.

                            Racism: A History and even classics like Jordan's and Williams' works help you out here. Theo Goldberg is essential too.

                            Chattel slavery and the intergenerational transfer of free and slave status through blood from mother to child and in a "democracy" to boot, was unprecedented in history. As I said, check Patterson who does an amazing job of talking about chattel slavery as a type of social death not seen before.

                            The constitution was a consensus document. The framers could have chosen to eliminate the institution, for their own pragmatic, personal, and other reasons, they chose to continue it. As such, they should be held accountable.

                            They were not superheros. They were regular people.

                            The Master Class and The Ruling Race do a great job of discussing how the framers and men of that class understood the basic contradiction of their rhetoric of liberty with the vile institution of black enslavement. Their internal struggles are well worth reading about. They knew they were hypocrites; they also knew how to use the rhetoric of slavery and freedom to sell the revolt/revolution.

                            By 1800 approximately, only 20 or so percent--perhaps lower--of the public could vote. This was established in the Constitution and had to be changed later on by Jackson. Re: the slave trade here you go: Not hard to find at all, 5 second google search, no need to go to book shelves.

                            "Slavery is seen in the Constitution in a few key places. The first is in the Enumeration Clause, where representatives are apportioned. Each state is given a number of representatives based on its population - in that population, slaves, called "other persons," are counted as three-fifths of a whole person. This compromise was hard-fought, with Northerners wishing that slaves, legally property, be uncounted, much as mules and horses are uncounted. Southerners, however, well aware of the high proportion of slaves to the total population in their states, wanted them counted as whole persons despite their legal status. The three-fifths number was a ratio used by the Congress in contemporary legislation and was agreed upon with little debate.

                            In Article 1, Section 9, Congress is limited, expressly, from prohibiting the "Importation" of slaves, before 1808. The slave trade was a bone of contention for many, with some who supported slavery abhorring the slave trade. The 1808 date, a compromise of 20 years, allowed the slave trade to continue, but placed a date-certain on its survival. Congress eventually passed a law outlawing the slave trade that became effective on January 1, 1808.

                            The Fugitive Slave Clause is the last mention. In it, a problem that slave states had with extradition of escaped slaves was resolved. The laws of one state, the clause says, cannot excuse a person from "Service or Labour" in another state. The clause expressly requires that the state in which an escapee is found deliver the slave to the state he escaped from "on Claim of the Party."

                            Reread Olson, he does a great job of talking about white mass democracy, the constitution, and how blacks were constituted as anti-citizens. Mills will be a great help to you in understanding how liberalism cannot exist in an idealized state, and the idea of how race, liberalism, and the social contract intersect.

                            A few questions. Do you believe that the Constitution is divinely inspired and that the framers were special, godly, and perfect men?

                            Do you believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery or not? I mean this seriously, as it will help me understand your first principles and how you interpret American history. Again, that is another point argued over by amateurs and dilettantes, but the serious folks know the answer--I assume you will be in the latter category.

                            Don't misunderstand me. The "framers"--a phrase I hate--were a diverse group. But they were pragmatists who authored a document that responded to the political realities of the era. Now, that doesn't mean that they should not be understood for what they were--many of them were racist, white supremacist, slave holding men with much money tied up in the number one capital good of their era. Do they get a pass for that decision? No. That appeal that they "were men of their time" is no salve for those held in bondage because of their choice--a choice again which could have been made to end slavery. Such claims are also intellectually lazy as similar "men of the times" argued against them.

                            The Constitution provided broad latitude to the states in terms of voting rights which you clearly know. Also, and this is key, black folks had to be written into the document as full citizens--a unique move-- in the form of a corrective. Once more, this is a signal that the framers and the white public clearly understood the contours of citizenship and anti-citizens.

                            Many conservatives want to play a game with that fact.

                            Interesting conversation.

                            I would also suggest Roger Smith's book Civil Ideals.

                          •  also i missed this error in your historiography (0+ / 0-)

                            "The general view is that color based racism began as a conscious policy to divide freed and enslaved Africans from indentured Brits following Bacon's Rebellion. If you're looking for the taproot of white supremacy that's where you'll find it.

                            White Supremacy as a political doctrine didn't emerge until the early 19th century. "

                            Since you impugned my expertise and training I must push back here.

                            Bacon was before the 19th century by quite a bit and clearly established white supremacy as a norm in this country, how then could you claim it was not until some 100 plus years later that it came into being as an ideology.

                            Please explain.

                          •  missed one other point (0+ / 0-)

                            you proceeded in good faith so I will be thorough. Re: Jefferson he was a founding father--silly phrase--and not not a framer in the yes of some. However, his views and the interests he represented were integral to the document.

                            Also, re: the cornerstone speech, other state constitutions and founding documents of the confederacy also explicitly referenced the fact that u.s. was intended by its founding documents to be the white man's republic and they were protecting the Constitution as originally intended--I always found the "patriotism" of the CSA very fascinating in this regard; and also, i do believe other parts of the infamous speech you are citing signal as much and talk about how america is a white man's country and its origins were betrayed by the North.

                            We have to be careful with the CSA as they supported States' rights when it was convenient and boohooed when it wasn't; they supported federalism when it worked for them; hated it when it did not.

                            What is not in dispute among serious folks is that the CSA was founded as a tyrannical and terrorist gov't that was based on white supremacy, and was a military state. On that point, I would think that we could agree.

                          •  now you're being silly. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gzodik, jbou

                            he is having a discussion with you. he disagrees and is stating why. and every time he does, you just shut him down repeating the same mantra again and again.
                            and the passive aggressive "why the profanity......Oh my. "
                            is old school tedious.

                            We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                            by Christin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:38:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •   (0+ / 0-)

                      Very possibly race has nothing at all to do with this mass murder.

                      The point under discussion is how racial attitudes affect the media coverage and other public reaction.

                      The shoe's on the other foot for white people in non-white countries. In Korea, rude or illegal conduct by native-speaker English teachers has produced articles and blog entries about how dangerous foreigners are. It's the same phenomenon, being treated as a representative of a race rather than as an individual, that affects minorities in the USA.

                •  The diarist's whole (11+ / 0-)

                  point is that when other races [or women] commit such acts, it is seen as sort of an 'indictment' against that particular race [or women], but when white males do it, no 'indictment' of white males happens.  When white males do it, the crime is analyzed by itself with no further 'indictment' of white males.

                  The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

                  by dfarrah on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:44:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  yep, the same thought crossed my mind. (0+ / 0-)

                    As of 02/22/2012 in Washington State pharmacists can exercise their "religious freedom" by denying women access to Plan B because the judge thinks there aren't any bigots in this state.

                    by FlamingoGrrl on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:32:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  For whom? (0+ / 0-)

                    Who is it that sees such actions as an indictment--or not?

                    Where does such outlandish thinking find a reasoned audience?

                    Is there "White Privilege" in America? Of course there is! Just as it exists in any number of other countries on this globe. Is there such a thing as "Black Privilege" in America? Of course there is, just as there are copious examples of it around the globe.

                    Is it exclusive in the American construct? Absolutely not. (Either privilege you choose!)

                    Is it "White Privilege" in America that sees more than 70% of the illegal drug users go unpunished? Of course it is--until we choose for it not to be so. When the arguments deal with crime alone, the statistics simply stupify most white CJ specialists. Yet, those in prison are overwhelmingly Black, when it comes to drug-related crime. Why is this? Is it racial "privilege"? No!

                    Racial profiling? You betchum! So which is the issue that needs discussion: privilege or profiling?

                    This is my point here. It's simply the wrong discussion for the wrong reasons. And, I think it would at least be intellectually honest to report that the simple awareness of the perception of "White Privilege" in America, and especially over the past four decades, has come a very long way in reducing or nullifying it. I think that is a very good thing.

                    We are citizens! Some among us are going to do horrific, terrible and seemingly unexplainable things. I do not believe race is peculiarly responsible for that. Nor do I believe anyone, including our media in this country, should be allowed the first instance of suggesting anything otherwise. But, that's OUR job. It is not an acceptable, or "normative" condition, upon which every citizen must hang some hat of "plausible deniability" or acceptance.

                    Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                    Economic
                    Left/Right: -7.75
                    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                    by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:31:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  black privilege in america? talk about newspeak (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tytalus, blueness, Matt Z, poco

                      talk about neo conservative "colorblind" newspeak.

                      please, give me some examples of this black privilege at work so I can go get me some of it!

                      i cannot think of one area in american cultural, political, social, or economic life where "blackness" is an asset or privilege.

                      do enlighten me.

                  •  and the diarist is wrong. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    cks175

                    his whole point is wrong - it's not he media that may indite a race . because they do NOT.
                    it's a few right wing bigots who get air time on rush and faux.

                    We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear. Robert Louis Stevenson

                    by Christin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:41:39 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Are you White or Black? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                orestes1963

                How could you, or anyone else reasonably predict what is, in fact, an image, much less a black one, in a white mind?

                This is a huge part of the disagreement I have with your thesis. To be fair, you bring salient points to the discussion, which is one I believe we should have. But, bringing you bias to that discussion, with the pre-determination that you are correct is toxic to any reasoned debate.

                Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                Economic
                Left/Right: -7.75
                Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:19:54 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  easily (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blueness, poco

                  for folks who study media, communications, semiotics, and cognitive psyche (as well as other subfields in the social sciences...and the humanities too) we have a ton of data about racial priming, stereotyping and its impact, there are folks who study cultural tropes, symbols, and images, we can look at literature and art, etc.

                  i love the book Playing in the Dark on this issue, esp. how it deals with how whiteness and the color white are not at all benign in the cultural consciousness of people of color here and abroad. Dyer's book White is also a great exploration of some of these ideas too.

                  Other people study the types of images and themes that occur in the mass media and the type of ideological work they do in a society.

                  so yes, we can tell you a great deal about the "White mind" and the collective subconscious. and yes, we can tell you something--although not as much--about a given white person's attitudes about race on a conscious and subconscious level. can we tell you everything about a given person's attitudes and make predictions from aggregate data even if we believe in methodological individualism? that is much much harder and we are not psychic. But, we are able to make some reasoned guesses that will have a wide range of accuracy and imprecision.

                  we can go to Freud and Jung if you want to talk about collective attitudes, symbols, and beliefs.

                  i would suggest reading some Stuart Hall, getting the book the black image in the white mind, or even checking out some of the videos on the implicit association/bias test. I believe it was ABC that did a piece on Primetime Live

                  http://www.youtube.com/...

                  Nevermind the many tests with children about their racial attitudes and sense of worth.

                  Of course, we also have a ton of research and literature on how black and brown folks internalize white racism too and often see ourselves through the white gaze. Check out some old school Fanon.

            •  Um, no... you are trying to say race had something (35+ / 0-)

              to do with this killing.

              No, the diarist is saying that race has something to do with HOW we talk about THE KILLER.

              •  100x rec. Finally someone who gets it. Thanks for (10+ / 0-)

                putting it so clearly and simply.

                „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

                by translatorpro on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:56:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  and? (0+ / 0-)

                he's crazy before he is white. In the case of the young black male from the inner city who kills someone there is usually a reason and that reason is usually associated with his economic circumstances. I don't get why race matters in how we discuss the killer. It is not relevant.

                As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

                by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:58:17 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  May I present Exhibit A... (12+ / 0-)
                  he's crazy before he is white.
                  That's it right there.  Let that sink in.  You wrote, so I'll assume you probably believe it.  

                  Have you ever thought about?

                •  May I present Exhibit B...? (6+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OIL GUY, sethtriggs, justmy2, Odysseus, Hastur, zizi
                  In the case of the young black male from the inner city who kills someone there is usually a reason and that reason is usually associated with his economic circumstances.
                  Did you mean to say, he was black before he was poor?

                  Ask why in once case you focus on race first, and circumstances that influence behavior second.

                  While with this case, you mention "potential circumstances" that can influence behavior - albeit rarely before his race.

                  You've given a text book example of the diarist's point.  

                  Please think about what YOU wrote.

                  •  think about what? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Occam was an optimist

                    this is nonsense. You all fail to explain yourselves then you say think about it, and then the other guy says i fear talking about race so he is right and I am wrong because I fear something. state your case clearly and talk to me like I am a ten year old.

                    As a nation, the U.S. consumes the most hot dogs per capita. So you'd be wise to never underestimate our powers of denial.

                    by jbou on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:25:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  First , your hypothesis about "crazy" (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      devis1, OIL GUY, sethtriggs

                      You wrote:

                      he's crazy before he is white.
                      Crazy is nothing more than your hypothesis about his mental health.

                      First problem with the narrative, is that you assume you have enough information to conclude that he is crazy.

                      There are a lot of paranoid people who feel disenfranchised in this country.  The vast majority of them don't go on a spending spree and then set out to kill dozens and dozens of people.

                    •  Think about how you used the word BEFORE (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      CaliSista, OIL GUY, sethtriggs, justmy2

                      You wrote:

                      he's crazy before he is white.
                      Ask yourself, why in one case you focused on race first, and circumstances that influence behavior second.  While in the other case you did the opposite.

                      In your discussion of race and motivation for murder, one came BEFORE the other.

                      In the case of a this white american mass murderer, your hypothetical motivation (crazy) came BEFORE the fact of his race, which we know for sure.

                      Did you mean BEFORE to indicate a sequence in time?  As in he was crazy before he was born?  I don't think that's what you meant.

                      Did you use BEFORE to indicate being crazy was a more important factor than being white, to understand/explain the killings.

                      As far as I know, we don't have any information yet about the motive.

                      As I said, there are many, many paranoid people who feel disenfranchised... and they don't arm themselves with military and police grade weapons and booby-trap their apartments.

                •  here is why (5+ / 0-)

                  when someone brown does something crazy...we get Homeland Security, TSA, and warrantless wiretapping, stop and frisk etc...

                  when someone white does something crazy we get a bunch of people with psychology degrees on tv and an opportunity for Democrats to further undermine legitimate gun control legislation by running away from any discussion of the role legitimate 2nd Amendment debate...

                  so unless I am missing something, race is extremely relevant....

                  "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

                  by justmy2 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:36:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  its still early, did you mean... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Occam was an optimist, jbou

                  the killer was crazy before he was white

                  the young black male was poor before he was black?

                  then that makes more sense to your point, if thats not what you mean then youre a prime example of what this diarist is talking about.

              •  Not only that, it's also about how (10+ / 0-)

                we "look for solutions"--(e.g., the thousands and thousands of discussions about gun control, about mental health issues, etc., etc., etc).

                When the gun-related violence that kills innocent children in the inner city, this discussion does NOT happen. (what set the suspect off? what conditions/policies in this country can we change to prevent this from happening again, etc., etc., etc.)

                It's always. Always. Always "Move along. Nothing to see here, folks."

                •  Agreed. The normalization of violence... (9+ / 0-)

                  ... is all about WHO is doing the killing, and who is "collateral" damage.

                  Children being killed by stray bullets in the inner city has been normalized as some kind of unavoidable collateral damage of "the war on drugs."

                  But children being killed in a suburban multiplex theater are a tragedy.

                  Both are tragic, and they are a national scandal, IMHO.

                  We should be asking, "Who is profiting off these killings."

                  •  I wouldn't even go to the "profit" factor. (9+ / 0-)

                    I would go to this: what is causing human beings to engage in these behaviors?

                    The problem, as I see it, is not that inner city kids are seen as "collateral" damage--it's worse: somehow, by virtue of circumstance of birth, these kids become complicit in their own deaths. The idea that if the homicide is "gang-related", (gee, my second-cousin-twice-removed was a gang member, and my kid got caught in the crossfire--that makes "me" --and my kid--complicit how? --"It's the geography, stupid! If your second cousin twice removed is a gang-banger you should know better than to live three doors down from him! Who cares if your family's been living in that house for 50 years. Move to the suburbs where you'll be safe, dammit! )

                    The "real" tragedy about kids being killed in the suburban multiplex theater is their "innocence"--the notion that they were somehow just "innocent bystanders"--and of course they are--but in the case of inner city kids, somehow they are "stained" by circumstance of birth--if you "choose" to live in the inner city, by golly, that's the chance you take. If you want to enjoy the right and privilege of SAFETY, weeeeelllll, move on out to the suburbs, right? Riiight.

                    •  Good question (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      worldlotus
                      what is causing human beings to engage in these behaviors?
                      I don't own a gun, and think that guns should come with mandatory training and periodic proficiency testing.

                      But I can also see a reasonable basis for (otherwise) rational people to own guns, even these civilian "assault" rifles.  

                      When you look at the militarization of the police, for example, I can see how some see police shooting protestors and really they just feel so unsafe.  In their mind they need to have a military style weapon, in case it gets so bad that the citizens actually have to take up "their arms" and defend against the "government"... The idea of having the guns/ammo at the ready might make them feel safer, for awhile.

                      The tragedy is that they can't see that if it comes to that, we're  all fuct anyway.

                      The other tragedy is that NO ONE who owns a gun, ever thinks that it will be they themselves who accidentally (or intentionally) kills someone they love.

                      •  gun ownership wasn't one of the behaviors (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        worldlotus, Catesby

                        I was talking about. Lots of people of all colors, socio-economic circumstance, walks of life, etc.  own guns and don't kill people with them.

                        What are the things about society (and that includes the construction of identity) that cause people to kill other people, using whatever damn means available?

                        •  Going out in a blaze of gunfire is one of... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          grumpelstillchen, sethtriggs

                          ... our country's oldest memes for achieving a heroic death.

                          Such men are remembered, not for what they did during their (pathetic forgettable lives).  They are remembered for what they did ON the day that they died.  They achieve a kind of immortality.

                          Gavin DeBecker talks about it his book, The Gift of Fear.

                          The media are complicit, in the way they report crimes of this type, they provide a reward of notoriety to the killer.

                          I was answering your question and keeping to the topic of the post, gun violence, racial privilege, who has the right to write the narrative.

                          •  absolutely. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Occam was an optimist

                            must concede, I feel too strongly about this subject to be posting without actually investing the time/energy it would take to be "coherent" (according to the dominant paradigm/discourse)....don't know how many (long) comments on the subject I've "abandoned"....

                            Am glad the diarist has opened this "can o worms" (it's certainly been on a lot of people's minds--as I know from random surfing, and from conversations in my community)...which is to say, to anyone who thinks the diarist is just pushing his/her "own" agenda...s/he's not: a lot of people are thinking the same thing; few take the time to address/express it, for reasons that should be obvious...

                            one final comment before I commit to "indulging" for the rest of the evening (never blog while under the influence, esp not on this subject ;-)..

                            yeah, it is about the "narrative", not necessarily who has the "right" to write it, but what pre-conceived notions underscore/inform the narrative....everyone's got the "right" to write/construct the narrative...but what's the story the narrative tells? And how is that influenced by the underlying "metanarrative"--in this case, the underlying metanarrative is that of white male privilege.

                            I'm pretty sure you get that. Too bad everyone doesn't.

                            Anyhoo....I've reached my safe-blogging limit and am signing off......

            •  wow.....talk about seeing ghosts..lol (0+ / 0-)

              "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

              by justmy2 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:31:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Read what the diarist wrote. (6+ / 0-)

              It's not that the shooting was racially motivated. It's that the fact that the shooter is white seems to ensure that we will only talk about him as a lone individual -- not as a representative of a specific race or class. That's the issue.

              Nothing requires a greater effort of thought than arguments to justify the rule of non-thought. -- Milan Kundera

              by Dale on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:25:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  no one here said 'don't talk about race'. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Saint Jimmy

            They've said that race isn't the prevailing narrative in this incident--so you've taken some license in injecting it here.

      •  I don't see how applying a mass murder scenario (5+ / 0-)

        advances your argument that young men of color are treated differently.

        "The shooter was a young white male.  Young men of color are incarcerated at disproportionately high rates in the United States.  And????"

        What does one have to do with the other?  Of the last four mass killings in the US, two were perpetrated by whites, one by a Muslim, and another by an Asian.  

        I don't see where there really is any relation at all.  It seems like you've taken the latest cause de juer and hitched your agenda to it.  I'll give you credit for trying.  Not too many people here are going to read a random diary on white privilege (there's there 'been there, done that' on a topic that's been heavily covered and written about already).  But by linking it to one of the biggest news stories of the year, you probably will get a few more hits.

        For that, I give you kudos.  Good marketing.

        Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

        by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:54:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  why deflecting? (5+ / 0-)

          what about this obvious question upsets you?

          does race color media coverage? does it impact media framing? basic questions.

          we talk all the time about "black crime" can you recall a similar narrative about "white crime?" if all of these spree killers were predominantly black or brown do you honestly think that race would not be central to the narrative? why then, given that white men are disproportionately committing these types of murders, funny that whiteness and white masculinity are never brought to the forefront?

          this is easy white privilege 101 stuff.

          •  This is a "boy who cried wolf" diary. (6+ / 0-)

            This is a tragic, rare incident that's gotten a lot of publicity and you've taken your agenda and attempted to attach the two together.

            When there are issues of actual racial injustice to be discussed, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

            Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

            by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:15:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  answer the questions (4+ / 0-)

              please.

              I don't write to please others. never have. I also am not interested in making people feel comfortable. could care less.

              engage those questions above and then dismiss the claims--which are pretty obvious by the way.

              •  You're seeing the answer. You haven't even (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Saint Jimmy

                made a credible case to establish your premise.  Your logic is so convoluted we can't even discern your actual questions, let alone address them.

                Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:58:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  up the reading comprehension (6+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon, OIL GUY, justmy2, Fogiv, poco, Tonedevil

                  the premise is pretty clear, and i have elaborated on it here.

                  does race impact how the media frames the news, in particular, stories about crime?

                  do we have a vocabulary to discuss crimes that are overwhelmingly committed by white people, in particular white men?

                  if not, why? what interests are served?

                  consider the counter-factual if black and brown people committed the overwhelming number of mass murders in this country would the frame be racialized or not? what does the evidence to date suggest on this point?

                  why is an equivalent frame not introduced for white men who are mass murderers, serial killers, child molesters, etc.

                  how then is this an example of a large phenomenon of white privilege?

                  not hard. you simply are not trying.

                  •  The answer is Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                    The entire field was begun as science specifically because of the integral fact that, at the time, a vast, huge, overwhelming majority of crime was being perpetrated by Whites in this country.

                    Yes, there is a narrative. It is replete, and of long-standing. How can you miss that?

                    Is media "informed" as to a racial bias when reporting on criminal acts? Undoubtedly, but I take issue with the significance you seem to place upon it. There are those in news who would have us forget the victims, the event, and the tragedy to focus solely upon the race of the perpetrator -- on BOTH sides of the discussion, by the way. Should it be allowed?

                    It simply is not journalism. It is sensationalism. That is a finite distinction which has passed definitional muster. Regardless of where, when, or under what circumstances it occurs, it is to be addressed by the citizens who are the victims of it. And that does not require any particular racial identity.

                    It requires the willing participation of an informed electorate.

                    Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                    Economic
                    Left/Right: -7.75
                    Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                    by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:46:12 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  it is not a premise (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Tonedevil

                  so much as an observed fact. White flight has produced enclaves with a minimal non-white presence at best; the reasoning in their aggregation being "once we are away from 'those people' then we will be safe..." but then you have a Columbine or an Aurora where persons raised in the enclave commit acts of violence against other denizens of said enclave and those acts shatter the security believed to have been secured by exclusion. They can't blame it on "those people" because by their design, "those people" don't live there or live there in numbers too small to be a factor ... and they are too much in denial to believe that one of them could do such a thing in the absence of any mental disease or defect... so rather than take a good hard look at what they have wrought, they categorize the perp as "crazy" in order to have some way of making him 'the other' and thus maintaining their inherent 'normalcy'.

                  Fear doesn't just breed incomprehension. It also breeds a spiteful, resentful hate of anyone and everyone who is in any way different from you.

                  by awesumtenor on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 06:58:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  No, he's pointing out a solidly documented pattern (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              OIL GUY, sethtriggs, Tonedevil

              Follow his links. How do you expect anyone to take your refusal of that evidence seriously?

               People should expect to be taken seriously when they have evidence. It's that simple. One has to wonder about your defensiveness here.

          •  Not deflecting at all. The trend is "young men" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            atana, Saint Jimmy

            when it comes to mass shootings in the last ten years.  White, Asian, muslim.

            Maybe it's where we live that impacts on our perspective.  I live and work in the Washington DC area.  It's very diverse.  Banks seems to be robbed by whites, blacks, Hispanics and Asians.  Whites, blacks, Hispanics and Asians are victims and perpetrators of random violence and domestic violence.    Economic class seems to be the defining characteristic that the discussion focuses on in this region when it comes to crime.

            The only exceptions are when women are committing the crimes (a young female bank robber/car jacker got a ton of publicity during the duration of her crime spree) or hate crimes committed against the LGBT community.

            The privilege aspect that doesn't really exist in the DC area.  We've progressed and moved beyond that.  

            Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

            by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:25:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  chaunceydevega, I can't engage because I am (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Occam was an optimist, Tonedevil

        neither a white or a black or any other pigmented male.
        However much I wish I could engage, I do not have the background to do so in any meaningful way.

        That being said, your post & many of the comments have given me much to ponder over the truths presented.

        Truths that caused an instant pain & sorrow as well as a newfound "in your face" awareness about several things.

        I know that my ponderings will lead me to question.  And then to further pondering.

        My second visceral reaction -after pain-sorrow- was/is the vastness.  However can this be addressed & how long will it take based on the sheer "vastness" alone?

        You & many others bring education & awareness.  Thank you for this.

    •  I've been looking at that and I think maybe $5000 (3+ / 0-)

      would have done the trick, $2000 for firearms, $2000 for armor, and $1000 for ammo.  If he spent more, I suppose that's possible.  But a rampage appears to be well within the range of a single maxed-out credit card.

      You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

      by Cartoon Peril on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:36:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A Metaphor (5+ / 0-)

    I agree with Raven.  To the extent that it is possible to draw any conclusions from events that are vanishingly rare, I am more inclined to believe that that there is something about our violent media culture that creates the metaphor for how people "go crazy."

    It so happens that a person driven by this modern metaphor causes far greater destruction than the same person, suffering from the same affliction a generations ago.  

    •  "A person" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mamamedusa

      It's not vanishingly rare at all. It doesn't happen every day, but it's common enough so it gets very little press unless the death toll is high. They are written off as crazy or disaffected people and it ends there, as though this is something normal for a mentally ill or disaffected person to do.

      It so happens that a person driven by this modern metaphor causes far greater destruction than the same person, suffering from the same affliction a generations ago.  
      A person who also happens to be a young white male. Coincidence?
    •  I'm not a psychologist, for sure...but... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      I do remember reading about how the expression of certain mental illness is partly culturally based. So if that is true, it would seem that even the deformed mind isn't operating in a vaccum. The culture underlying the society in which that mind is operating still influences how those deformities express themselves. This fellow seems to have latched onto a comic book villian, which is kinda of Americana. There was African fellow recently who ate his roomates organs. Both men were crazy. Maybe the only difference between the two were aculturation.

  •  And white collar crime is predominantly... (20+ / 0-)

    ... committed by white men. (Often with impunity)

    The freedom to kill, maim, commit wanton acts of violence, and to be anti-social (as well as pathological) without having your actions reflect on your own racial group, is one of the ultimate, if not in fact most potent, examples of White Privilege in post civil rights era America.
    Predominantly committed by white men, who have the freedom to...

    over-charge the customer,
    poison the customer,
    distort the market,
    cheat the lender,
    lie under oath,
    lie to counter-parties,
    commit felonies on federal disclosure filings,
    drive recklessly and get off with a warning,
    kill someone (accidentally) and get off on a technicality,
    shoot your friend in the face (accidentally)...

    Ok, I admit it, the last one was snark.

    •  imagine if black or brown folks had (19+ / 0-)

      ruined the economy like the gangster capitalists financier class did. there would be a whole discussion about "affirmative action" and "unqualified" minorities.

    •  Yeah, stupid white men. I hate em!!!! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Smoh, cks175
    •  Yet in Asia, white collar crime is suprisingly (11+ / 0-)

      committed by Asians.  In Africa, most of the white collar crime is committed by Africans (although Chinese commodity brokers are making some big inroads there).  I wonder why?

      The plot thickens when you narrow the crime to political white collar crime.  In Mexico City, it seems to be Mexicans taking most of the bribes, yet in Rome, its those damn Italians taking and making bribes.  In Washington DC, the majority of politicians going to jail for fraud are African American, yet in Utah, it's white politicians going to jail for fraud.  Go figure....

      I would point the exception being Antarctica, where the problem is both black and white (damn penguins!)  :)

      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

      by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:04:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The diarist's point exactly... (17+ / 0-)

        The powerful can commit...terrorism and many other crimes...

        ... and remain an exception to some "rule"...

        ...WITHOUT the bad behavior being attributed generally to a problem with the whole "race."

      •  ...in Utah, it's white [Mormon] politicians... n/t (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tonedevil, OIL GUY, Matt Z
      •  different societies, but your point (11+ / 0-)

        on black politicians is interesting. there has been a concerted effort to indict black politicians for "corruption" going back to Reconstruction.

        There is a new book that does some good work documenting this pattern and makes a very compelling claim about racial disparities in how politicians are investigated for corruption.

        •  My view is from an intercultural vantage point. (7+ / 0-)

          I'm white, living in a homogeneous (more than less) European country, but have made a study of and taught intercultural awareness. This has made me very sensitive to cultural issues, which are rarely recognized if one is "on the inside". Objectivity is learned, and in the US there is very little motivation to do that, and unless you are "an outsider", or iow, not a member in the majority group, is very hard to perceive. So do you think that maybe reframing your argument as a "cultural" phenomenon rather than "racial" would be less provocative  while still being accurate, or am I wrong on this? I really get what you're driving at, but am reluctant to engage in the flame fest that this  discussion has become. However, I certainly welcome your perspective and think it's important to have this conversation. Good on you for bringing it to the fore.  

          „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

          by translatorpro on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:40:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fear isn't the only mind-killer, Frank Herbert (6+ / 0-)

            As an American interested in international and cross-cultural studies, I've often noticed enough similarities and parallels between the habits and prejudices of all peoples in the world to believe that there would be much use in expanding debates on race into the less region and historically spefic field of Majority / Minority politics. (Although you have to remember, sometimes, Minorities wield power over majorities.)

            Anyway, unless a person is already used to viewing the 'term' race as something more comprehensive and meaningful than just the color of a person's skin, including the political, sociological, historical, ect. ramification thereof, it is probably useful to try and make the conversation more dispationate by using terms like majorty, minority, out-group, in-group. ect.

            •  It's getting late here, so I won't elaborate (5+ / 0-)

              or respond in depth right now. I have a lot more to say about this, but want to sleep on it before I go out on a rather unsafe-looking limb. This is a really interesting topic, but getting away from the subject of the diary, so I'll sign off for today and hope we can continue this dialog some other time.

              „Wer kämpft, kann verlieren. Wer nicht kämpft, hat schon verloren.“ - Bertolt Brecht

              by translatorpro on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:04:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  i agree (10+ / 0-)

              in a piece like this i try to stay away from technical language such as in-group, out group, societies structured in systems of dominance and subordination etc.

              hell, most folks can't tell you what "race" is to begin with and will settle on some ahistorical understanding of pigmentation and human phenotype.

              we can talk about culture, in doing so we need to talk about how race is located and constructed by said culture. most certainly, and this is inside baseball that you are likely familiar with, one of the big discussions among critical race theorists and others is about how whiteness is (or is not) constituted as a cultural space.

              •  So (0+ / 0-)

                it sounds to me as if this is the genesis of an important, and truly necessary discussion. Perhaps a Diary series? I'd love to see it. Really.

                I would also like the conversations and diaries to result in a book--yours, that addresses the important issues you raise that specifically address a 2012 reality.

                I believe that is perhaps the most important aspect of all, because I believe the paradigms upon which your thesis are based are changing violently and immediately. I would say more, but I do agree that this has been (despite my spitting wit to the otherwise) a really important beginning for progressive conversation--and action. It is that part that I am much more interested in.

                For instance:

                What is a prescription for the citizen moving forward into tomorrow's MSM news that can at least address, if not counter-punch your thesis?

                Should race, and by necessary extension, racism be purely transparent (not invisible) in the USA? How do we communicate beyond it when we see the potential for more than 5,000,000 Americans potentially disenfranchised from the citizens right to "exercise the franchise" on or before November 6, 2012? How do we call it when we see it, and most importantly what actions must we take right now to bring sufficient counter-weight to the issue to nullify or eliminate it?

                This, I would just love to see you, and this community tackle.

                And, just for the "record", I'd be more than willing to offer you air time on my radio show to seriously discuss your thesis, and work to create answers to the questions I have posed above. It's too important a discussion not to have, right now. If you are interested, shoot me a kosmail and we will set it up. Seriously.

                Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
                Economic
                Left/Right: -7.75
                Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

                by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:03:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Um, what? Yes, the priveleged men of different (0+ / 0-)

        regions... behave in a privileged fashion. You've made his case rather than refuting it.

      •  Watch it! (0+ / 0-)

        I love me some pennins! And I happen to know they are racially neutral, and socially stable.

        Except of course, when they eat their young. But I digress! :)
        /snark.

        Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
        Economic
        Left/Right: -7.75
        Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

        by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:52:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I see no point in bringing race into this. (7+ / 0-)

    The killer's skin color has nothing to do with the event.

    Some folks just can't resist the temptation, though.

    Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

    by Celtic Merlin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:44:38 PM PDT

    •  tell me if he was Arab America or black (17+ / 0-)

      or hispanic and how the narrative would not be quite different.

      don't be afraid to look into the light. yes, it can hurt your eyes at first. but, you are better off for it.

      •  Let me understand... (6+ / 0-)

        Do you honestly think that if this kid had been a black, upper middle class, graduate student in neurobiology and had committed the same crime that the conversation would have been about his race?

      •  depends on the circumstance. (5+ / 0-)

        As cited elsewhere, race placed a minimal factor in the DC sniper narrative.  Same with the VA Tech shootings.

        It depends on the location, socio-economic circumstances, other factors...not everything warrants a racial lens.

        •  It is quite saddening.... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW, v2aggie2, Bud Fields, gzodik, bevenro

          ...to watch the diarist damage a perfectly valid case about white male privilege by seizing upon exactly the wrong example and then defending it with far more heat than light.

          Want white male privilege? Try sentencing for cocaine-related crimes. Try the racial background of stop and search incidents. Try the effect being black has on you going to jail rather than being given a second chance via probation or a fine. Try.... well just about everything except this type of case.

          Where's the "privilege" here anyway? The shooter's going to get little help from blog posters speculating he might have been nuts. Are we saying he's just going to be let off, given a suspended sentence or something? Nope. He's gone, forever, to execution or a cell. If he gets life when he could have gotten executed, that might well be a case of white privilege. But we aren't at that point yet.

          "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

          by sagesource on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:34:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  the media framing is all about the normality of (6+ / 0-)

            whiteness and individuality. do the simple counter factual of what if he were arab or muslim or any type of Other.

            of course we can go to and fro on disparate sentencing along lines of race. that was not my point here. i have discussed that issue of race and crime on my posts on Trayvon Martin on my own site, here, and elsewhere.

            The Colorado shooting is a perfect example of white privilege 101 and how crime is framed in this country when these mass killings occur. Please tell me how it is not.

            •  We have that counter factual... (0+ / 0-)

              ... for instance, "What if he was Korean?"

              Results do not back up your claims.

              Even if they did, the "privilege" of being explained/excused by some bloggers and other commentators will be distinctly cold comfort to this fellow in the future. If he benefits from white privilege, he's benefiting from it a hell of a lot less than a white guy who breezes through a police roadblock that would have strip-searched him and taken his car to pieces if he'd been a black man.

              Step back and take a few deep breaths. As you pointed out, if you want to discuss white male privilege, there are plenty of valid examples. Dragging it in here reeks of desperation in a situation where desperation is hardly warranted.

              "They smash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn)

              by sagesource on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:44:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  never desperate, cold and calculating (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                OIL GUY, Fogiv

                why be desperate on an Internet site. Ain't worth it. and yes, in the case of the VA shooting race was discussed.

                to my central claim, does race influence how the media frames stories about crime? if you want to fight that obvious question then you are standing on very weak ground going forward.

                and let's grant your premise then. in the va case that race was not discussed re the shooters "Koreanness"--whatever that means. He is an outlier in a sea of examples about white men going on murder sprees. As a function of the trends it would make sense that their race is discussed it never is. If Asian men committed a grossly disproportionate number of murder sprees in the U.S. would you like to suggest that the narrative would be race neutral?

                •  Be careful where you tread (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cks175

                  Advocating that race be treated as a factor if there is a high prevalence of racial identification with a crime is the problem you claim to want to correct.  You impliedly endorse the notions of "white crime" and "black crime."  Yet, I would bet that you would reject the notion of black crime being treated as a category.  (I would agree with this rejection.)  You dig yourself a hole out of which you cannot get with this argument.    

                  •  i respectfully disagree (0+ / 0-)

                    as long as there is a black crime frame, i am going to push back and cite the overwhelming evidence of white criminality. as i have said here and elsewhere, i am not noble.

                    •  Is a black crime frame valid? Apparently the (0+ / 0-)

                      existence of one invalid argument is all the reason you need to justify another one.  

                      If, at the end of the day, what you are really arguing for is the right to be wrong, I guess I would have to agree with you.  Here in America, you do have the right to be wrong.

                      :)

                      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                      by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:12:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Spiral entropy (0+ / 0-)

                      If you intend to propose a link between whiteness and crime, you have to accept as valid the notion of black crime as well.  You cannot logically have your cake and eat it too.  (I mean can't in the rhetorical sense- ie, engage in a debate on the issue.)  It reduces your argument to nothing more than a personal tantrum.  I would argue that you defeat your purpose by doing this.  

                      How does one engage you in a serious discussion of the issue if you exchange logic and reason for personal pique?  This has nothing to do with nobility, but rather the ability to achieve the goal of a race neutral society.

            •  No, it really isn't. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bud Fields, cks175, bevenro
              The Colorado shooting is a perfect example of white privilege 101
              It's a perfect example of people being killed and injured while trying to enjoy themselves.    And it's a perfect example of why we need gun regulation, and better education and better healthcare for people, just to name a few.
            •  I'd beg your caution. (0+ / 0-)

              Your reasonable thesis is quickly devolving into a conspiracy theory of "the man" against every one else.

              I'd really hate to believe that this is your intent.

              Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
              Economic
              Left/Right: -7.75
              Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

              by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:21:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Just WAYYY too big a brushstroke there, CV n/t (0+ / 0-)

              Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
              Economic
              Left/Right: -7.75
              Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

              by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:48:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The examples you cite could be seen as (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            devis1, OIL GUY, doroma, sethtriggs, poco, Tonedevil

            the RESULT of what the diary is discussing. Media framing and the tendency NOT to lump the White race with one individual's criminal behavior prevents the general stereotyping you mention. Media portrays young Black and Latino men as violent criminals so stop and frisk is seen as "reasonable" and Trayvon Martin in a hoodie is "suspicious".  The crack epidemic in the Black community leads to disproportionate sentencing while meth cases do not. Black and Latino young men are probably gang members anyway so throw the book at them vs allowing pleas to misdemeanors.

            Just the fact that so much of the public's discussion is centered on what types of mental illness Holmes may suffer or his despair at not getting a job or the stress of a neuroscience graduate program, etc. versus how a White mofo shot up a theater is the point. Also, I guarantee that if he grew up going to a Christian church, there would not be speculation on the violent nature of that religion even though that is the religion to which the overwhelming majority of American criminals have been exposed.

            "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

            by CaliSista on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:07:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •   (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            devis1, Tonedevil

            >Where's the "privilege" here anyway?

            It benefits other white people, who are spared a media examination of our "cultural pathology" or how our religion glorifies violence -- benefits us by treating us as individuals.

        •  The public and media seem to be able to discern... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cks175, orestes1963

          ...the profound differences between psychopathic/sociopathic violence (e.g., DC sniper, Aurora) from the far more common and potentially more resolvable domestic/street/gang/drug/crime violence.

          Let all Bush tax cuts expire and , bring on the Sequestration cuts to defense.

          by kck on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:05:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  the Fort Hood assassin was quite priveledged, and (0+ / 0-)

          arabic.

      •  Get this straight, Chauncey . . . (5+ / 0-)

        If the only difference between this man and the fantasy shooter you're trying to invent is their race - nothing else about them is different - then, no, this "narrative" you're talking about (whatever narrative you're imagining) would be no different.

        The asshole in question shot more white people than black people.  Is there something in that which we should be discussing, or would you agree with me that race played no part in who was victimized in this incident?

        So get this straight, Chauncey:
        Your attempt to throw race into the conversation is hereby rejected.  Of all the things that played a part in this, the color of this asshole's hide is the least of them.

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

        by Celtic Merlin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:05:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Oh yes it does (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Occam was an optimist, Tonedevil

      When you start talking about mass murders it does.

    •  Kudos for pushing back (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cks175, gzodik, Celtic Merlin

      on this.  CD's agenda requires that "white privilege"  must be found in any negative event affecting society.  He needs to consider that lunatics come in all colors.

    •  Too bad the media hasn't done the same (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jimmylutherking, Tonedevil

      so unfortunately, your personal expectations have not been successfully met...don't blame Chauncey...

      Oh-and if you doubt the media has not brought race into the discussion, ask yourself why no one is willing to call this an act of terrorism...

      "But once John Boehner is sworn in as Speaker, then he’s going to have responsibilities to govern. You can’t just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower." - President Obama, 12-07-2010

      by justmy2 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:48:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am always taken aback with your moniker (0+ / 0-)

      It happens to be my first name, with a lineage going back to the 5th Century. :)

      I agree with your proposition but I would also say that the primary (I believe--the diarist seems completely capable of apologizing for his own posit) instance of race in the context of THIS discussion has to do with media reporting, the framing of that reporting, and the influence that reporting has on those receiving the reporting.

      Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
      Economic
      Left/Right: -7.75
      Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

      by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:16:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your name is Merlin? (0+ / 0-)

        I've never met a man with that name.

        I find it quite interesting.

        My father's side of my family are Celts going back to time immemorial.  Dad went to Ireland to trace his lineage, but even the records of the Church were exhausted by time he got to the 1600's.

        Celtic Merlin
        Carlinist

        Struggle with dignity against injustice. IS there anything more honorable that a person can do?

        by Celtic Merlin on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 01:31:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I'm Wayyyyy Past Tired of Law Enforcement's (14+ / 0-)

    tired and bogus excuse: "Gee, we just can't stop these guys".

    1. Law enforcement/FBI are obviously profiling the wrong people; ignoring caucasian domestic terrorists/whackos.

    2. Holmes planned this for at least four months.. making how many purchasesof ammo & gear with his credit card? this is trackable,

    3. Holmes took 100mg of vicoden prior to his "performance". what other meds was he on?

    4. Holmes may have been posting to extremist websites; this is trackable and is actionable as the FBI has already demonstrated with terrorists of a different color

    did anyone see the recent case of the buffoon working at BK who took a photo of himself with his clodhoppers in the salad mix? he posted this photo, not sure if it was on FB or what.

    Guess how long it took to track him down and fire him? I heard 15 minutes.

    so please, law enforcement can stop with the bogus baloney regarding their so called inability to surveil the nuts out there.

    doesn't look like they're even trying. this is unacceptable and weak.

    "A civilization which does not provide young people with a way to earn a living is pretty poor". Eleanor Roosevelt

    by Superpole on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 12:46:27 PM PDT

  •  I applaud the diarist and hope the topic opens up. (10+ / 0-)

    It's a fact in our culture that if you're white - a sure fire way to make yourself the center of attention, aka "important," is to get a gun or build a bomb and kill a lot of people.  

    If you're white (non-hispanic, non-muslim) in America, you can execute a reign of terror and the word terror will not be applied until there is an abundance of evidence regarding intent.

    See also... religious terrorism
    AKA bombing churches and medical clinics,
    AKA assassinating doctors...

    See also... economic terrorism
    AKA hiring a "team" to break into a house you don't own

  •  well, let's not forget (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JesseCW, atana, Saint Jimmy, worldlotus, Matt Z

    that since most of the men in the U.S. are white, it would only be a surprise of most of the mass killings were NOT done by white men.

    What statistical evidence do you have to overlook that most obvious answer?

    I don't know if the actual percentage of white mass murderers is higher than the percentage of white men in the country. Your link isn't helpful because it includes incidents around the world.

    But certainly somewhere around 70 percent of the men in the U.S. are white, as per the census at any rate.

    The stats are down below that figure some these days, depending on how those with Spanish roots self-identify and how they are counted, but it was 75 percent back in the 1960s, you list a killing in the 1960s.

    And of course percentage of males in the population who could afford to outfit themselves as this killer did would be even higher skewed towards white.

    You want to talk about demographics and mass murder, seems to me "male privilege" would be a conversation far more relevant to the actual facts than "white privilege."

    yes, certainly, certain elements of the media and certain politicians (see Ron Paul) make a living stirring up racial fear, no doubt about it and of course the TV coverage would be different if the shooter was Arab, Arab-American or Muslim.

    •  i hear you (3+ / 0-)

      the bigger claim is that we never talk about "white crime."

      why is that?

      granting all of your points on the stats and the large N here, should we not be talking a hell of alot more about white criminality? especially given that there are whole categories of crime that are almost exclusively committed by white men?

      i did some rough math here, if i am correct--am open to correction--white men commit these crimes in the u.s. at a rate higher than there proportion in the general population.

      to intersectionality--yes, whiteness intersects with gender thus my allusion to white male privilege. class is part of this too.

      •  No, not really. (3+ / 0-)

        Here's a list...

        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        All races are well represented.  If any race has an outlier, it's Asians.

        And while you're contemplating actual evidence to support this argument, perhaps an example of ...

        this would be one more signal to the existence of a "pathological culture" among said group.
        as opposed to a blanket statement declared as fact would be nice.  I mean I can certainly buy the point about Muslims, and I can buy the underlying theory about white male privilege, but I simply don't recall such a discussion for Kenneth Wayne Stewart.  Or the DC snipers.  Or Darnell Collins.  Or Roland Smith.  Or Colin Ferguson.  
        •  be careful with that list (4+ / 0-)

          it includes foreign incidents. I am talking about this country. white men are over represented in the category of those who commit mass murders. no biggie. they are also over-represented among those who are serial killers, child molesters, those who commit treason, and a host of other crimes.

          yet, we never talk about "white crime." that is my ultimate point.

          •  Hey kettle. (6+ / 0-)

            Shouldn't you be careful of your own list considering it only lists white dudes and that it took an edit for you to remove examples from outside the U.S?

            You're right, it includes other countries.  90 in the U.S., and 26 in other countries.  Do we need to go through and do a count of the racial make up of those 90?

            Shall we take a gander at this list?

            How about this one?

            And since the subject matter is 'white males' we certainly should consider this one.

            Look, I understand the point about the bullshit that happens in this country with the 'black crime' label.  But the 'solution' isn't satisfying your sense of balance by  labeling these things 'white crime,' because the fact is, race has about zero to do with why crimes are committed.  

            How about working to quash the bullshit label of 'black crime' instead of creating the equally bullshit label of 'white crime?'

            •  i signaled to that in my own writing (0+ / 0-)

              i said that yes there are non-white men who commit mass murder--three or so--but the overwhelming majority are white.

              no trickery here. just a plain statement of facts.

              "But the 'solution' isn't satisfying your sense of balance by  labeling these things 'white crime,' because the fact is, race has about zero to do with why crimes are committed.  "

              i play rough and to the point. if the media wants to create a black crime frame to further white supremacy i am sure as hell going to talk about "white crime" because there is a whole lot more of it.

              you can choose to fight the noble battle if you choose. we need all parties involved.

              •  wha wha wha whaaaaaa? (3+ / 0-)

                Facts?  Bullshit.  Don't tell me facts.  It's nothing but a flat out declaration.  I'm not even disputing it, but if you want to declare something as touchy as these "facts" you damn well better come with some reliable  source on the matter besides your gut fucking instinct.

                Here, here's a fact.  85% of all carjackings are committed by Asian women.  Don't believe me?  Well it's a fact.  We have both lent equal support to our alleged 'facts.'  

                Fine, if rough is the way you want to play it, go ahead.  At least you make clear that by design and intent, you have no intention of solving problems, just creating new ones.  Equality, isn't it grand.  

                Fuck that.  You're fighting the battle in a way that divides, so don't give me this shit about needing 'all parties involved' when you are deliberately choosing a method that will alienate parties who otherwise might want to be involved.  

                •  would you like to pull out the full list (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blueness, Tonedevil

                  from the brady foundation, or talk about the most high profile cases or work through a reasonable source and a reasonable claim that white men commit more mass shootings? what is your dog in that fight? why in denial of the obvious? do you grant that there are "white crimes?"

                  this is very interesting...

                •  and so we rabble rousers who talk about (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blueness, Tonedevil

                  race ought to just be quiet? we are such troublemakers! damn us for telling the truth in a way that makes some people uncomfortable. privilege is a crutch is it not? it makes those who possess it very weak and sensitive.

                  "Fuck that.  You're fighting the battle in a way that divides, so don't give me this shit about needing 'all parties involved' when you are deliberately choosing a method that will alienate parties who otherwise might want to be involved.  "

                  •  Quit putting words in other people's mouths (0+ / 0-)

                    And likewise quit pretending that others are responsible for your choice of intentional provocation. Such tactics reek of dishonesty and personal malice.

                    Tough enough for you?

                    Nothing human is alien to me.

                    by WB Reeves on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:15:37 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  NY Times crunched the numbers (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jennifer poole

                on rampage killers back in 2000

                They Threaten, Seethe and Unhinge, Then Kill in Quantity

                One of the most remarkable insights to emerge from the survey is how much these killers differ from the typical American murderer.

                Half of all murderers in this country are black. Eighty percent went to high school, and no further. Most of them killed someone they knew, or while committing another crime, like a robbery.

                The rampage killers, on the other hand, were white, by far, though 18 of the 102 were black, and 7 Asian. The racial profile of the rampage killers is close to that of the entire population.

                The rampage killers were overwhelmingly male -- but not entirely. Six were female, and they exhibited many of the same disturbed, aggressive characteristics of the males. Here again, however, was a distinction from regular murderers, who are about twice as likely as rampage killers to be women.

                •  sounds just about the same as the demographics (0+ / 0-)

                  as the NY Times says: "The racial profile of the rampage killers is close to that of the entire population."

                  now that was 12 years ago. Number of white men has dropped some; and number of mass killings certainly seems to be up.

                  but, so far, I've seen no evidence that shows that white men go on murderous rampages in numbers meaningfully beyond their demographic percentages.

  •  Good point, diarist. (13+ / 0-)
    "In the aftermath of the Colorado Movie Massacre, Columbine, and many other incidents, we need to ask, "what the hell is wrong with young white men?"
    It's because of this line, people can distract from your true focus, the fact that white males are privledged to be treated as individuals even when they are involved in immoral (I prefer that that to the term criminal, because everything that is criminal isn't immoral) acts.

    Beyond that, it would take a great deal of imagination to construct a scenario in which a majority population examines itself with anything so much as the scrutiny it examines the minorities in its midst with. Or to examine the members of one's own in-group as intensley as members of a percieved out-group. It may not be fashionable to say, but so many people either don't have the opprotunity to or refuse to form relationships with people of different races, they're forced to rely on the pop-culture and media characters and dry books of statistics to fill in the bones and flesh of otherwise largely abstract human beings who, because of race, demography, region or politics, they don't have much contact with.

  •  Our culture glorifies violence and we use that (16+ / 0-)

    violence to exult the heroes.  Heroes tend to be young white men - they have been for ages and, in spite of a few heroes in modern commercial movies/TV that don't fit the young white man, continue to be the great majority of heroes that are shown on commercial movies/TV.

    The guns are their way to express their manliness (some say it is a way to enhance their penis) and the macho culture continues to push young men toward the mentality that they are alone and must be ready to defend themselves.

    As had been said elsewhere, I think mental health issues have a lot to do with this, but it is not the sole issue.  The NRA wet dream (to which they keep getting closer) of crippling or eliminating any regulation on their product is also a factor (and one that we are powerless to do much about because they control so many Congress-critters, including many Dems, and control many state legislatures).

    But the diary is certainly a reason to think about how we are teaching our boys, especially white boys, that it's OK for them to do stuff like this if they feel it is warranted by an "insult" from a girlfriend breaking up, to crazy talk radio telling them to do it or whatever.

    The diarist is spot on that the fact that the great majority of mass shooters are young white men has not & will never be mentioned by the tradMedia.  In the end this guy is a domestic terrorist and should be called so, but that is a moniker saved for people of "strange" religions, skin that is too dark, or with accents when the speak English.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 01:51:18 PM PDT

  •  Congratulations. (9+ / 0-)

    Pet issue introduced because of a mass murder of innocent men, women, and children.

    Oh wait, I didn't mention their race.. how sensitive of me.

    "To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well." Justice Robert Jackson, Chief Prosecutor, Nuremberg.

    by Wayward Son on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:04:08 PM PDT

  •  The words of that worm-tongued Michael Gerson (8+ / 0-)

    came to mind with this read. I'm applying "the soft bigotry of low expectations" to white mass murderers, aka mass murderers. Not sure if it's proper but seems to suit.
    They either die by cop or they're caught and punished but the incidents are called isolated and made run of the mill, inasmuch as a white guy going postal is more or less expected and that's somehow more acceptable because the guy's white.
    Their actions, sometimes no matter how heinous, manage a soft landing with no reference to their race, just to the "sickness" in some that compels them to go postal.

    rMoney: Just another jerk, lookin' for work.

    by OleHippieChick on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:19:30 PM PDT

  •  As a White Male teacher, teaching young White Male (15+ / 0-)

    students in a context of the new awareness that being White is no longer the automatic top of the heap socially, I know that young white males feel challenged for social status far more than previous generations of young white males.

    It is very confusing for them, because their mentors, parents and elders grew up in a time when white, male and athletic meant you got all the attention, all the praise, all the hopes and advice and inclusion, as well as the finances, which was held back for women, African Americans, Asians, Mexicans and Central Americans, and other kids newly arrived from the Third World; Iraqi kids, Afghani kids, Somali kids, Ukrainian kids, and the list goes on and on.

    In fact, it is considered cool now to be uniquely from somewhere else. If you are, you get the attention and the assistance and the praise, and often the financial assistance to attend college. It is the New World for White Male students.

    Their responses are what you might expect. They are proud to have friends speaking languages from around the world. They are proud that they are inclusive and liberal minded and can judge people on the content of their character instead of the color of their skin. And yet, they are wistful and bewildered that their job in life, to advance through the competition, has been made much more challenging and multi-faceted than before. Some are resentful. Some are curious and hopeful. But their elders think that the world is as it was when THEY were in High School. It isnt.

    It is time for mentors and leaders of these white male kids to try to empathize with them and help them understand in kind and gentle ways that the New World is more difficult for them than it was for my generation, and yet, merit pays off for every individual. Using all the brainpower you have is the new requirement for young white males, and handicapping your mind with booze, pot and prescription drugs will only make your task harder.

    It is a necessary end of the White Male Privelege of the last 500 years, but that is not to say it is an easy transition for these boys. They need help in understanding why it happened and how its to their benefit in the long run, and how to cope emotionally. There is no glee in sharing the rewards of the economy when you yourself have not been the author of the sharing attitude. This was, to them, done TO them, not for them, and they bear the burden of trying to be young, white and male in a time when its someone else's turn to be socially and economically cool automatically for a change. It grows your compassion to see this every day. It is a learning and growing experience for us all, and that is the best thing life can give.

    Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

    by OregonOak on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 02:33:51 PM PDT

    •  great comment and insight (9+ / 0-)

      i think i am going to have to repost this elsewhere.

      how do these students react to your interventions? are they conscious of the cultural scripts they have been offered about their "rightful place?" Or is it something more innate and/or internalized?

      •  That is not always apparent.. (7+ / 0-)

        White Male students these days have many levels of awareness, and they don't always intersect.

        They have the parental, mostly "Get Along" dictum. They have the examples of grandparents who made a TON of money and own houses, boats, cars, land, and who cannot understand how a young person doesnt just GET AHEAD! Its EASY!
        They have their college educated teachers, aware of class and racial privilege and sometimes resentful that they have to deal with it both internally and externally. They have visual movie and TV media, which has all KINDS of images stuck in their heads about who they are and how they should act. And they have their particular year to year music messages, which they never tell us about, but which impart a feeling of inferiority, since most pop acts today are black, asian, mexican, or... a combination of several languages, but most all claim that their music is weak compared to the 60's through the 90's. They get a feeling of being unrepresented musically.

        I think the best a White Male Teacher can do for White Male students is to project a tone of calm, self assured and humorous presence, and that happens to work for kids of all backgrounds. Go slow, be ironic and deliberate, say exactly what you mean. The tone is what they get, because teenagers are much more attuned to mood than words. Its a brain development thing.

        But more important is curriculum. I teach dozens of Western Literature books: Antigone, MacBeth, Catcher in the Rye, Things Fall Apart, the Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, Huck Finn, Pablo Neruda and Borges, Marquez and then Things Fall Apart, The Great Gatsby, Slaughterhouse Five and many others. In all of these classics of Western Literature, the message is that overbearing Pride and Lust for Empire is destructive of precisely the people who achieve Power and Empire. Its been stated in Western Lit since Sophocles when Creon destroys himself opposing a 14 year old girl with tyrannical actions. Students get that Western Civilization by way of Western Literature is ABOUT EQUALITY. It has been on this track since 400 BC. It is our civilization, and it is to our great credit that our literature reflects this pain inflicted upon ourselves daily in order to bring more people the benefits of a civil life. It is painful for each of us to share the benefits of an economy and a politic which we ourselves created, and yet, it is what Western Civilization is ALL ABOUT. We are all created equal by God, or Nature, or the Universe, and when they understand that this pain of not being automatically privileged like their white grandparents is their part to bear. Some understand. Some are proud. Some are of divided mind, acting personally as if they want to claim the privelege despite the lessons of Western History and Western Literature.

        But I tell them, this is what our civilization has been working for. We wanted to banish strife by having justice. Justice based on merit and accomplishment. It matters. They are proud of this, an it gives them confidence to proceed within the tradition of the West. We are not perfect. In fact, far from it. But the slow arc toward more inclusion, more fairness for everyone you meet, moves on. And it moves on because of teachers in public schools. People simply do not understand the debt they owe to the teachers of America. The Chinese do. They are hiring American teachers as fast as they can get them. The Singaporeans do. The Indonesians do, The Iraquis do. Even the Finns send people here as observers to witness what the best American teachers do, to be able to replicate it in the best schools in the world.  

        Everyone in the world understands how good American teachers are, except Americans. The dismantling of our profession is in its 10th year. Expect more strife, more injustice and more of a slide to 3rd World status. Our district laid off 15 percent this year. I will have 40 kids per class, and I dont know if I can do it physically.

        But, we will try, and if I have to quit in November, so be it. This is happening daily with our best teachers so that Corporate Interests can hire compliant young people to teach to Corporate Tests. It is the saddest thing I have ever witnessed in America.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:00:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I imagine that it would be a similar (7+ / 0-)

      paradigm shift for immigrant young men of color(e.g., Asian, Hisp, Black) who came to the US from countries where males who looked like them were granted privilege of society and now have to cope with loss of that status?

      •  Yes. Some foreign Males of the villages.. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        devis1, translatorpro, Tonedevil

        have a hard time with us white males. We are different with women than they want us to be, or that they want to be,
        when they first arrive, since we don't obviously and rhetorically dominate the women, (but I am sure we do in unconscious ways due to several thousand years of history and language) but actually talk to them, ask them questions, laugh with them, and try as much as possible to fulfil the actions and behaviors of equality, and often don't do very well at it. (Mea Culpa... its HARD TO DO!)

        Other cultures similarly. Somalis, Ukrainians, Argentinians, often are bewildered by our deference to people they believe we are obviously superior to in class, race and income. It must be really shocking. Some of their behaviors get weird as a result, as they try to protest our behaviors and learn them at the same time as adolescents do with everything.. .. talk about complex. Yikes.

        Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

        by OregonOak on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:27:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Creates a hell of a discussion at home, too (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tonedevil

          because of these largely cultural differences, the issue quickly becomes a discussion about preservation of heritage, cultural and societal norms in a foreign culture and society, adaptation, and familial accountability.

          And that is true of any cultural dissemination in our amazing education system. That's why we need educators, not teachers. You impress me, OO. Thank you for this important contribution to the discussion, and to your community.

          I appreciate it.

          Nurse Kelley says my writing is brilliant and my soul is shiny - who am I to argue?
          Economic
          Left/Right: -7.75
          Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51

          by Bud Fields on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:18:50 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I see the usual push back by the GOS white male... (5+ / 2-)

    ... contingent. Par for the course here.

    Great read chaunceyvega and thanks for pointing out the obvious (even if most don't want to hear it). Highly rec'd.

    Extraigo el fruto de la Madre Tierra. - Cultura Profetica

    by boriquasi on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:15:14 PM PDT

  •  An issue... (6+ / 0-)

    ...if we (here) wouldn't put up with (and I doubt we would)...

    As folks have worked through many times before in the common "what if?" game of race in America, if James Holmes were black or brown this would be one more signal to the existence of a "pathological culture" among said group. If James Holmes were Muslim American the Colorado shooting would be a clear act of "terrorism," and an example of the Islamic bogeyman next door who has occupied the dreams and nightmares of the "heartland" since September 11th.
    ...then why in God's name should we push the narrative of THIS diary.

    Nothing makes the Progressive movement look sillier then when we adopt stances we usually abhor.

  •  Also, If You Want to Make a Gun Nut Crazy (7+ / 0-)

    Tell him that you think every American should carry a gun, especially African-Americans.

    "I'll believe that corporations are people when I see Rick Perry execute one."

    by bink on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:33:08 PM PDT

  •  I don't have time to go back and (7+ / 0-)

    dig up link after link after link, but to me, one of the markers of "white privilege" at work here has been the conspicuous use of the address "Mr. Holmes." When referring to this particular mass murder suspect.

    So color me color-blind, or color me CT-minded: I simply cannot IMAGINE a young black male who is suspected of murder (esp. if that murder occurs in a "safe haven" of suburbia) being addressed with this much respect. "Mr. Holmes"- this, "Mr. Holmes", that, "Mr. Holmes". Mister? Really? Mister?

    I mean, sure, for formality's sake we've got to call him a "suspect" and speak in terms of "alleged" crimes, but is there any doubt in anyone's mind that this is the same "Mr. Holmes" who just shot and killed/wounded a bunch (70+) of people at a theater in Aurora, CO, and who rigged his residence with explosives in the attempt to kill/wound at least one more?

    Mr.?

    Really?

    Sorry, but in my book once you've gone that far over the edge, naw, you don't get to be called "Mr." anymore.

    Because in this case, it's very obvious: the guy's not just a suspect, he's a murderer: real deal.

    •  Here you go.. (5+ / 0-)
      An appellate division of the State Supreme Court yesterday unanimously upheld the 1995 murder convictions of Colin Ferguson, who is serving a 200-year sentence for opening fire on a Long Island Rail Road train in December 1993, killing 6 passengers and wounding 19 others.

      In its ruling, the three-judge panel in Brooklyn said Mr. Ferguson had been competent to stand trial and to act as his own lawyer. His lawyer for the appeal, Richard J. Barbuto of Mineola, said he did not know whether there would be a further appeal.

      The judges said that contrary to Mr. Ferguson's appeal arguments, the lower court had taken all the proper steps to determine that he had been competent to stand trial, despite the fact that a psychiatrist hired by the defense disagreed with two court-appointed experts in that conclusion.

      "To pass these defendants a poisoned chalice is to put it to our own lips as well." Justice Robert Jackson, Chief Prosecutor, Nuremberg.

      by Wayward Son on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 03:56:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  wasn't fergusun the one who killed Rep Maloney's (5+ / 0-)

        Husband and wounded her son?   Her husbands murder is why she ran for the US Congress and why she fights so hard for better Gun laws... laws that were weakened by BUSH, including the one that banned assault weapons..we no longer have that law and I would LOVE to hear an NRA member explain to me why ANYONE needs an assault weapon with a magazine that holds 100 bullets that can expel those bullets within ONE minute.   Surely this is NOT a sportsmans weapon and if you need that many bullets for self defense in your home you need to go to an armory and take shooting lessons before you pick up another gun.  

        Rather then make this a discussion of 'white privilege why not talk about the real elephant in the room....  the NRA!

        "You've got to be an optimist to be a Democrat, and a humorist to stay one" - Will Rogers

        by KnotIookin on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:33:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Don't Forget about the Serial Killers (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, martini

    Almost all are white males such as: Ted Bundy, Gary Ridgeway, Joel Rifken, and David Berkowitz.

  •  You've got it backwards. (4+ / 0-)

    Rather than starting to ask what's wrong with another group, it would be better to stop identifying groups with aberrant individuals. Oh, and do a better job of caring for the mental health of everybody. Which should have been my first thought. Oh, actually it was my first thought yesterday. I've gone on to others since.

    Moderation in most things.

    by billmosby on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 04:31:38 PM PDT

  •  Two Issues The MSM Will Surely Not Cover (8+ / 0-)

    1) How does an unemployed college student find $20K to but assault weapons? (he exclusively paid cash, according to LE)

    2) How does someone like Holmes manage to booby trap his apartment like a demolitions professional?

    I figure at some point the alternative press will start asking questions about this, but doesn't the fact pattern here strike you as odd?

  •  "what the hell is wrong with black people?" (4+ / 0-)

    I don't think this is about race, but of course, all the points you made here are valid (and T&R'd). The MSM gains and maintains power by dividing people. Same thing is happening here.

    I'm back in Detroit right now, and actually was looking at real estate in the city this week. What I saw, the desolation, the desperation in a town which is now 75-80% black makes me cry. The answer is pretty simple: increase the tax base so the city can pay for basic services, such as law enforcement, fire department and education. There is this thought promoted by the right wing that many urban blacks are "professional victims", but that's way too simplistic, especially since the right wing has been the perpetrators of systemically economically discriminating against blacks dating back to the founding of the USA.

    I trot this out quite a bit on Dkos, but Huey Long's famous quote that "when you divide both the white people and the black people, you can pick both their pockets" has more meaning today than when Long said it, some 60-70 years ago.

    •  Thank you. I'm no diplomat. I've got too much (4+ / 0-)

      passion for the cause of working people and the middle classes and, when I sense unnecessary division in the ranks, well....

      Huey Long was a master politician and populist.  No one these days approaches his talent.  We would be WISE TO LISTEN.

      Some here have huge chips on their shoulders and, until they LOSE THEM, we are fucked.

      Do not call for black power or green power. Call for brain power. ~ Barbara Jordan

      by Saint Jimmy on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:22:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  sidebar: comparison (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Occam was an optimist, Tonedevil

    until more is published about James Holmes studies and years at university can't make a comparison with another high achieving university student Unabomber Ted Kaczyski to find out if Holmes was exposed or participated to mental conditioning of any kind; Holmes' grandfather was a Lt. Col. and his father is a mathematician who writes reports for the Navy; google his grandfather and his father....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    He received a federal grant to work on his Ph.D. at U of CO , and was one of only six neuroscience students at the school to receive National Institutes of Health grant money.

    He obtained an undergraduate degree with highest honors in neuroscience from the University of California, Riverside in 2010

    --------

    There is a video of him at age 18 at science camp ... his report was on 'temporal illusions' studies for neuroscience.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/...
    Unabomber - Harvard University at 16 mathematics

    Theodore Kacynski was the subject of psychological experiments while he was at Harvard that were directed at understanding brainwashing and mind-control techniques that be used on enemy soldiers. (funded by the CIA)

    Ted Kaczynski also participated in a multiple-year personality study conducted by Dr. Henry Murray, an expert on stress interviews.

    Students in Murray's study were told they would be debating personal philosophy with a fellow student. Instead they were subjected to a "purposely brutalizing psychological experiment"stress test, which was an extremely stressful, personal, and prolonged psychological attack. During the test, students were taken into a room, strapped into a chair and connected to electrodes that monitored their physiological reactions, while facing bright lights and a two-way mirror.

    Each student had previously written an essay detailing their personal beliefs and aspirations: the essays were turned over to an anonymous attorney, who would enter the room and individually belittle each strapped-down student based in part on the disclosures they had made.

    This was filmed, and students' expressions of impotent rage were played back to them several times later in the study. According to author Alston Chase, Kaczynski's records from that period suggest he was emotionally stable when the study began. Kaczynski's lawyers attributed some of his emotional instability and dislike of mind control to his participation in this study. Indeed, some have suggested that this experience may have been instrumental in Kaczynski's future actions.

    W. Mitt Romney is the pioneer of creating "economic - sacrifice - zones"

    by anyname on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:18:31 PM PDT

  •  White privilege arises from the white victims (4+ / 0-)

    as well.

    10 people shot in chicago this weekend including four teenagers (13,13,16,16).

    No news. No suspension of Presidential campaigning. No visits to the victims...

  •  We're white males . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    justmy2, peregrinus

    when we get irritated we shoot people.

    I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. ~Thomas Jefferson

    by bobdevo on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 05:53:10 PM PDT

  •  I'm a white male. (0+ / 0-)

    And anyone who attacks all persons of a particular color or gender is just a bigot.

    The balkanization of the left has been a catastrophe for this country.  Who are your enemies? Right wingers? Oh, no. You hate white people and men. You have just alienated 75% of the population.

    If you have no moral qualms with being a racist bigot, you might think about how you are sowing division between progressives and helping the right wing.

    GOP: Bankers, billionaires, suckers, and dupes.

    by gzodik on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 06:38:03 PM PDT

  •  Trenz Pruca (0+ / 0-)

    Interesting post. It should be noted that there would be no real contest between Romney and Obama but for the support of Romney by White Males. They make up the overwhelming majority of conservative political leaders. I covered this in a Dairy.
    Pointing this out is not reverse racism, but recognition of a significant sociological revolution. The problem appears to be that they would rather destroy the society than surrender the privileges they have obtained from it. People will always fight harder to retain privilege than they would to obtain it in the first place. They fight hardest and most mercilessly when the battle is already lost.

    •  there is survey data which suggests that (0+ / 0-)

      white "working class" male voters in particular are supporting romney even though they know that obama is better for the economy and people like them. white racism is truly a mental illness.

    •  James Holmes is an agent for Romney? Damn if only (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bud Fields

      the diarist had said that in the first place we wouldn't all be arguing about this!  (SNARK)

      Or not.

      Let's remember why DKOS exists in the first place, what this community is about.  It's about electing and supporting progressive Democrat candidates and addressing issues of peace, justice, equal rights for all and care for the environment.

      It's not about giving credence to ridiculous conspiracy theories that the RW will then quote and use to disparage the Left.  If that's the line of thought and inquiry you want to pursue, their are other websites for that.  This, however, is not one of them.

      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

      by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:23:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Finally, someone goes there. (4+ / 0-)

    Yes, most of these mass killings were the work of young white men. Yes, in all these cases, the shooter's race was rarely part of the narrative. Yes, that is a function of white privilege.

    Thank you for going there.

    •  you are welcome (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z

      got to keep telling the truth

    •  Chaunce failed to show cause and effect. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger

      While it's correct that the shooter's race is rarely part of the narrative, his attempt to connect it to a function of white privilege was so weakly argued that the entire premise fell far short of the mark.  Assuming of course that the original mark was cogent and reasoned analysis.

      If however, the goal was to gain a few hours of flame filled notoriety on a lazy Sunday afternoon, he was a resounding success.

      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

      by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:31:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you have reading comprehension issues (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        doroma, blueness, Matt Z, poco, Tonedevil

        as I never made that claim.

        but then again, you think that Washington DC is "post racial."

        thus, on these matters you really have little credibility.

        •  When it comes to the Washington DC scene, it's saf (0+ / 0-)

          safe to say I've got far more credibility than you.  I'm going to guess that I'm a lot younger than you, but maybe it's because you come across as a cranky old man.  

          I don't know where you're from, or what you've experienced in the past, but on a racial spectrum Washington DC in 2012 (we like to call it the DMV) is a lot more tolerant and post racial than many places in America.  I didn't experience Selma or Little Rock in the 1960s.  Wasn't in Boston when they tried to introduce bussing.  Missed the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict.

          News flash old man.  Times have changed.  White kids dance to techno house music spun by black DJs.  Hip hop artists sell out to crowds of all races.  We work together, we live together, we fight together, we love together.

          Is there still racism?  Hell yes.  Take a drive outside the Beltway on a weekend night and you might see some rednecks driving around in their pick up truck with a Confederate Flag.  

          Does past racism still have lingering effects?  Hell yes. Check out test scores in the public schools and you'll find racial disparities in the results.  But the difference is, here in the DMV at  least,  we acknowledge those disparities and hire school administrators with the charge to erase those shortcomings.

          For you to dismiss any citation of progress as evidence of a lack of credibility only shows how close minded you are.

          I don't know where you live, nor do I really care for that matter.  But don't try to lecture me about the society that  the current generations are working to create.  

          You want to live in the past old man, have at it.  Blog away while you can, it won't be too long before you're sitting in your rocking chair, mumbling about 'white racism' while some patient relatives are nodding back, "Yes Uncle Chauncey, that's right Uncle Chauncey.  Time for your pills now."

          Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

          by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:03:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What a mean spirited post.. "old man"? You just (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness, poco, Pola Halloween, Tonedevil

            lost your credibility dude.Newsflash..... Racism is still a big problem in America. Diminishing it doesn't change that ugly fact. Sorry.

            •  yikes i love all the assumptions there (5+ / 0-)

              good stuff, as i said anyone who thinks that DC is post racial is deranged.

              commercial hip hop, much of which is new age race minstrelsy, being a barometer of post racial america? please. white folks have always consumed "black" culture going back to slavery and before. not a good barometer for "progress" in this country.

              old? that is true, being in my 30s does feel old sometime. and I know DC and other chocolate cities like it very well.

            •  Doroma, you've been more than cool in this (0+ / 0-)

              thread, but really Chaunce is just being a complete douche bag.

              I'm sorry, but if he's going to call me a racist, not even knowing who I am or what I believe in, then yes, I'm going to tell the jerk to go eff off.

              I never said racism is not a problem in America.  But when I cite an anecdote that refers to racial progress in the society and culture me, my friends, my family live in, he thinks that's reason enough to completely dismiss my credibility.

              At the end of the day, it's his views that are inherently racist, and I don't feel the need to tacitly or complicity advance that racism by treating him politely.  You are obviously a good person with a kind heart.  You deserve courtesy and have earned my respect.  Chaunce, on the other hand, is far from that.  He doesn't deserve my courtesy and he certainly hasn't earned my respect.

              Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

              by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:21:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  this is fun, you can't even define racism (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueness, Tonedevil

                but you want to make the suggestion that i am a "racist."

                what a specious claim that signals to the apparent fact that you do not know what "racism" is.

                you live in one of the most class and racially stratified cities in the country and you want to talk about it being "post-racial." on this issue, you do not have a rigorous or well-informed critical framework. not personal; just an  observation of what you have presented to this point.

                •  Didn't say you're "racist". I said you're racist. (0+ / 0-)

                  Why do you use quotes when I did not? Does it make you feel smarter?  Or, as other commenters have noted above, do you really like putting words in other peoples' mouths when you find yourself on the losing end of an argument.

                  Let me get this straight.  Commercial hip hop is New Age Minstrelsy?  In your eyes, does that make guys like Rick Ross and Kanye West black-face sellouts?  

                  Dude, you're a joke.  Look at your audience here.  Look at your act.  Then look yourself in the mirror and ask, "who is the minstrel here?"  

                  Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                  by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:46:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  OMG..Would you knock it off? Your posts are so (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Tonedevil

                    offensive ugh...

                    •  OMG, ummm, no. (0+ / 0-)

                      Check Chauncey's post just below yours.  It's all in good sport and practice.  

                      At this point, the underlying theme here is testosterone.  Not Aurora, Colorado; lone gunman; racial diversity in the Washington DC metro area; or white racism.

                      I'm not getting out of this sandbox  until Mommy tells me it's time to come inside for my peanut butter and jelly sandwich.  :)

                      Life's too short.  It's not bothering Chaunce or myself.  No need to let it bother you.

                      Peace Out.

                      Dont Mourn, Organize !#konisurrender

                      by cks175 on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 09:59:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  gucci isn't a race minstrel? (0+ / 0-)

                    two chains isn't a race minstrel? waka flocka isn't a clown who wallows in black buffoonery?

                    all of those assorted characters who are continuing old tropes where black masculinity is depicted as thuggery, hypersexual, and violent? a new age take on an old concept called the "bad nigger."

                    kanye is a bit different as he plays up the role of the black avante garde (sp?) black hipsteresque douche bag.

                    check out some of bogle's work in the seminal books Bucks, Mammies, and Coons for some context here.

                    byron hurt's documentary on black masculinity in hip hop will help you too.

                    you are good fun, still no definition of racist to offer?

                    can you define race minstrelsy and its themes? trust me I am not a race minstrel. your misuse of the concept indicates your lack of training and expertise on the matter.

                    like i said, this is all good practice and sport.

  •  Nonsense (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    parakinesis, Dr Swig Mcjigger

    Who could recommend this?

    You don't need to firebomb Dresden to prove that you can fly the plane.

    by SpamNunn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:30:05 PM PDT

  •  Violent? I thought we were shiftless. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Swig Mcjigger

    You don't need to firebomb Dresden to prove that you can fly the plane.

    by SpamNunn on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:39:52 PM PDT

  •  one more point here... (0+ / 0-)

    I'm always acutely aware of the fact that, when it comes to talking about mass murderers/shooting rampages, one incident is almost always kept off the list: the incident at Red Lake, in which a young Ojibwe man who identified himself as a "Native Nazi" lost his shit and shot up a school....

    that incident also says a lot about "white privilege"...in an oblique and insidious way--actually, a lot more about the pathology of "whiteness" and the way it can infect non-white communities.

    But that incident doesn't even seem to be on anyone's radar anymore--and never got the kind of national attention all the rest of these incidents got.

    Much in the same way the gun-violence deaths in Black communities "don't matter"....What's another dead Indian or two in the greater scheme of things? And heck, as long as you're safe in your suburbs or your gated communities, why worry about what happens on the Rez, or in the Hood?

  •  You are joking right? White priviledge? (4+ / 0-)

    Not to be disrespectful to your opinion but how do you deduce from this tragedy that this is about racism and privilege?   The kid wasn't rich or elite, he was fucked up mentally.  

    Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

    by dailykozzer on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:42:15 PM PDT

    •  what the writer is saying is that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      doroma, Tonedevil

      if the killer was a minority, it will automatically be a race issue. For blacks, it will be about the hip-hop culture, for middle-easterns he would be labelled a terrorist, but when it is a white person, it is a mental issue.

      •  If John Muhammad was taken as (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dr Swig Mcjigger

        characteristic of black people in general somehow, that view was pretty well suppressed in news media reports about the D.C. shootings as far as I recall. And in the case of Nidal Hasan, I recall a recent report chastising investigators of his actions prior to the shootings at Fort Hood for not looking into factors relating to his religion enough.

        What individuals may say about such things will be entirely another matter, of course. This diary is kind of another example of that, actually.

        Moderation in most things.

        by billmosby on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:56:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  No evidence of this (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dailykozzer

        The VA tech shootings, one of the worst in decades, weren't turned into a referndum on asian  culture. It was largely handled as the tragedy that it was. In fact, asian males are well overrepresented in the mass shooting category in the US, asians being roughly 2% of the US population, but I see no mention of this in the diary, but it's pretty clear what the agenda here is.

        •  Some see racism as fine as long as they (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dr Swig Mcjigger

          can convince others that those they target represent only politically expedient and politically correct targets.  

          Racism at its core is based on double standards.   Racism and sexism are the bedrock of perverted beliefs.   It is something that should not be tolerated by those who proclaim to be "progressive".      
           

          Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

          by dailykozzer on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 05:43:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Recommended for spinning your agenda from (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cks175, pot, parakinesis

    a major tragic event based on nothing BUT your agenda. Impressive.

    The sky is not falling. But it is going to heat up a bit.

    by thestructureguy on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 07:57:02 PM PDT

  •  Provocative (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doroma

    Very thought-provoking, even if you are pushing your agenda.

    Thanks for giving me something to ponder.

  •  Doubts about your analysis (3+ / 0-)

    If a society is mostly white, it should be no surprise that its mass shooters/killers are mostly white.  

    Obviously we are starting to see exceptions, as at Virginia Tech.  

    The "young and male" adjectives have always described the most violent members of society.

    I do agree that the knee-jerk reaction when a non white is culpable is terrible and that we are too prone to it.

    I find it interesting that he was studying neuroscience, as many who have psychological problems are drawn to studying subjects that may help them better understand their own problems.  Just speculation on my part, though.

    www.tapestryofbronze.com

    by chloris creator on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 08:17:47 PM PDT

  •  I find that fitting a (3+ / 0-)

    theory to the facts works much better than fitting the facts to a theory.

  •  It's the skin-color that makes them that way. (0+ / 0-)

    At least in this instance.

  •  this seems most misguided (4+ / 0-)

    it seems several groups have taken up their personal causes (as shown by this diary) instead of focusing on the real failing, mental health.

    •  Yes, I'm failing to follow here. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger, dan667

      If this were committed by a non-white, there would be commentary about the person's racial background, and many good people would condemn it.  Not enough, but many.

      So why is commentary about his racial background appropriate when he's white?  It's a strange double standard.

      His racial background is properly irrelevant.  His mental state, both at the time of the murders and at the time of trial, is legally significant and morally open to (endless) debate.

      "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

      by auron renouille on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 01:31:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  white male is always the default (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    so when they do something bad, it CAN"T be because of the race or social constructs of said race. It must be because they have other issues. They are never held up as an example of "what is wrong with white people???"

    compassion for things i'll never know ~ david byrne

    by little lion on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 10:03:07 PM PDT

  •  Excellent diary! Thank you for posting. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    doroma, Tonedevil
  •  Whites are over-privileged. (0+ / 0-)

    What an awesome narrative. Whites are over-privileged while everyone else has what should be considered +/- the correct level of privilege. Gotta dig it.
    If multinational-corporate elite ever infiltrate the left (or supposed left), a perfect human-rights narrative for them to promote would be “White privilege”. The “White privilege” narrative is a perfect obfuscation from the reality of non-whites (i.e. minorities) being underprivileged. And it seems to be working. Those over-privileged whites are the problem.

  •  I'm no expert (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Amber6541

    but there is a difference between a serial killer and someone who commits a massacre.  

    It would be interesting to see if massacres are a predominately white-male phenomena, and that is where I think your point lies.  White male anger is not something that is visited by the press. They seem to like the "angry young black male" theme better. The press sure spent a lot of time trying to get President Obama to loose his cool.

  •  This case says nothing about white people (3+ / 0-)

    or young white men.

    If it was a young black man, it would say nothing about them either. I agree that the narrative would be entirely different, and that is a serious, serious problem.

    But how can that be a problem on the one hand, but yet it is acceptable to generalize this guy's actions onto young white males to the point where a conversation is necessary.

    I just feel like your argument tries to have it both ways, when the truth is that attempting to say these incidents say anything about a group, white, black, muslim, young, old is alwayswrong, and that is the problem.

    You know we live in strange times when hearing something as simple as the truth almost seems shocking.

    by redhaze on Sun Jul 22, 2012 at 11:43:16 PM PDT

  •  First, we look at a face ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    ... to try and establish a connection. That's what we do in social situations, in sorting through media information, in forming political affinities.

    Then, we decide what to do with the information.

    Seeing a white face behind the gruesome headline, he immediately becomes "the other" because of his act, but it can't be his whiteness that had anything to with causality it ... it must be mental illness, anger imposed by circumstance, or some other uncontrollable situation. I wouldn't do perpetuate such a horror, so it can't be my group, either. That's how we cope and the diarist is correct ... it leaves out much.

    Seeing a brown face or a face from a group we don't belong to behind a horror, we tend to attribute it to that alone and move on ... that's the easy explanation and it temporarily satisfies. Well, that's them.

    I'm convinced that the "softness" of Barack Obama's racial identity ... which is he? ... is what angers the racist majority so much. It's confusing, unclear, ambiguous. They can't get an easy fix. This is what white people must get past.

  •  THANK YOU for saying this (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    No one else will.  A friend of mine once wrote a term paper for her college sociology class on why men beat up their wives.

    The answer: because they know they can get away with it.

    Only people on the left have ever referred to young white male Christian Timothy McVeigh as a terrorist.  Only people on the left call the white Christian males who bomb women's clinics and kill doctors terrorists.

    We worship violence in this country--on the football field, on the hockey rink, and everywhere else. These terrorists kill because they know that no one will ever stop gun violence in this country.  While they themselves may be apprehended, jailed, and possibly executed, they know their legacy of violence will never die.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 05:27:07 AM PDT

  •  Colin Ferguson anyone? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jkay, Dr Swig Mcjigger, Tonedevil

    I mean the mass murderer not the actor.

    A co-worker at the time, his wife was shot dead.

    Ferguson's race indeed did come into play in the media.  Then came his foreign nationality.  First it was angry black man against asians.  Then it was non-American who didn't grow up here.

    I watched the trials (these going on at the same time as the OJ Simpson trial)... Having to fight with people at work to turn the channel to the local coverage of the Ferguson trial.  he chose to represent himself.  He was entirely mentally ill.

    But you really needed to watch him in action to understand this fully.  By then, even the media realized this guy was nuts.  Race and upbringing no longer came into play.  And that's when the discussion of gun laws got momentum.  That is how Caroline McCarthy stepped into the political realm.

    I agree with the diarist,  race indeed does set the tone and context of how we initially discuss perps like this.

    But me? I just figure they're all unbalanced... Because I can't comprehend any individual committing such horrors for any reason whatsoever.  

    All the suffering of this world arises from a wrong attitude.The world is neither good or bad. It is only the relation to our ego that makes it seem the one or the other - Lama Anagorika Govinda

    by kishik on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 05:30:54 AM PDT

    •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dr Swig Mcjigger, Tonedevil

      The people who commit these elaborate, mass murders are mentally ill. Let's face it, how can your thought process be normal and do something like that, start shooting people that you don't even know?

      It's way beyond just getting pissed off at somebody and perpetrating a sole act of violence against that one person.

      I think it's mostly white guys because there are just more white males than non white males, so statistically more white males are going to perpetrate these insane crimes.

      Now, is there a cultural element at work beyond that? I think it's possible, but that is very, very hard to untangle.

      This guy in Aurora had some things going for him, he was clearly highly intelligent and grew up in what appeared on the surface to be very comfortable economic surroundings.

      So why does this smart, upper middle white guy go on an insane killing spree? Simple answer, because he was nuts.

      "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

      by jkay on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 06:28:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  did you mean this when you said it? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Swig Mcjigger

    "...young white men in our society--a group which apparently possesses a high propensity for committing acts of mass violence..."

    Really? I understand your arguments but that one line just sent alarm bells ringing. Is that actually true? Are young white men just blowing up helter skelter and committing mass murder everywhere?

    I feel like youre taking one wrong (the attribution of an individual black person's crime to his/her entire race) and using that as justification to do it to white people. I completely agree with what youre saying re: the differences in how we describe the acts of white vs how we do it for other races, mostly whites compared to blacks, but i feel like you need to go in the opposite direction- establish the white guy shooting up a theater doesnt mean that I, a young white male, isnt more likely to do it, too.

    I think your diary is thoughtful.

  •  I'm pretty sure I can shoehorn this narrative in.. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Swig Mcjigger, pfiore8

    I think you've stretched too far here.  There's a point to be made here about racism in the coverage of crimes like this, but not the one you're making.

    http://www.theroot.com/...

    That link is about serial killers, but you could also cite Colin Ferguson, Chris Donovan, the Zebra Murderers, etc...  They weren't cited (well, maybe on StormFront) as examples of a sick black culture.  They were seen as a few scary assholes with mental issues.

    As for discussions about white people going mad, I think you did see that in Jeff Dahmer's father's book (which was excellent and heart-breeaking) and in the movie Falling Down.  Falling Down shows pop culture is thinking about the white guy who snaps, or was at the time of the movie.

    We get what we want - or what we fail to refuse. - Muhammad Yunus

    by nightsweat on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 06:47:36 AM PDT

  •  List is dishonest as is the diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pfiore8

    You'd expect whites to outnumber other races in just about any crime in the US, there being, historically a lot more white people. This list leaves out the VA Tech shooting (32 dead, killer=asian male), Nadal Hassan, the Manchester beverage warehous shootings (shooter=African American male, the Wisconsin hunter killings (Shooter=Hmong) and the LIRR Shootings (killer African American male). I don't recall anyone saying the Hmong culture was responsible for the Wisconsin shootings, for example.

  •  Great diary Chaunceydevega (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tonedevil

    The volume of heat in the comment thread says you touched a nerve.

    For me it boils down to what someone upthread said so aptly:
    -- If the perpetrator has Muslim sounding name we get TSA, homeland security, and that detestable Bushite Fran Townsend on my Teevee pulling stuff out of their asses about Al Qaeda links, Mosques, sleeper cells blah blah blah.

    -- if the perpetrator is Latino/Latina law enforcement police chiefs show up to talk about gang violence and Barrio culture.

    -- if perpetrator is black they bring on conservative black pundits to pontificate about moral failings in black community, single motherhood, absentee fathers, low expectation, and ah the worst offender, hoodies (so says hoodie-wearing Geraldo Rivera) & clothing styles....

    Did I miss anything?

    Until white males are routinely singled out and frisked or labeled a threat to national security, or law enforcement because of what they look like, their names or some racial/geographical profiling, all the kvetching by some commenters about this diary's arguments being racially inflammatory, demonstrates how very ingrained white male privilege is even in the thinking of some progressives. Very telling.

    Folks, for once listen to minorities when they describe their realities versus the overt advantages of being a white male in this country. They are not dreaming it up or playing the "race" card. Said privilege is by its very nature intended to be "normative", invisible in its profundity. That is the bedrock of this country, and we're all reeling from its effects.

    Why do you think Harry Reid said just last week on the floor of the senate that the morning after the elections "Angry wealthy White old men" will wake up to realize they have bought the government? Should tell us something.

    "What the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath them." -- Pres. Obama (1/20/2009)

    by zizi on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 08:51:55 AM PDT

  •  How many white males covered and sacrificed (0+ / 0-)

    themselves for their girl friends and wives?  

    The more I read the topic of this diary which IMHO is grossly sexist, and racist, the more I understand that the KKK has NO monopoly on racism or sexism or anti religion.   The only difference between them and others is based upon a belief by some partisans that it is acceptable to target those who some believe are politically expendable.  

    Victims of bigotry are the poorest, least influential members of society.......never the wealthiest, most educated, most overrepresented in high levels, and most influential. Bigotry hurts the least influential. To claim or say otherwise is absurd.

    by dailykozzer on Mon Jul 23, 2012 at 04:05:22 PM PDT

  •  Pittsburgh has had several (0+ / 0-)

    Back in 2000 there were 2 shooting sprees only months apart.
    Richard Baumhammers, an unemployed attorney, wore a bulletproof vest and went to an Indian grocery store, karate school, and Chinese restaurant and shot the 'immigrants' he said were ruining this country. Oddly enough he was an immigration attorney and his parents were immigrants from Latvia. On March 1, 2000 a black satanist named Ronald Taylor went on a shooting spree in a McDonalds and held people hostage at a Senior Care Hospice Center. Taylor who hated whites, Jews, gays, and Asians was schizophrenic. Doctors said at the time of the shooting he was in a fugue state, a psychotic state of emotion where a person falls in and out of a trance-like state. More recently in 2009 a white man George Sordini went into an LA fitness center and shot 3 women and turned the gun on himself.

    Although the majority are white,  the common thread seems to be that they are all mentally ill. We need to discuss gun control, but I think more focus is needed on making sure people are getting the help they need for their mental illness. One more reason we need to support Obamacare.

  •  Just wow (0+ / 0-)
    --a group which apparently possesses a high propensity for committing acts of mass violence--
    There are on the order of dozens examples per decade, and millions of young white men in America.

    High propensity?  Really?  Quite the telling statement, really.

    Courtesy Kos. Trying to call on the better angels of our nature.

    by Mindful Nature on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 01:28:54 PM PDT

  •  (A) You haven't been paying attention if you (0+ / 0-)

    think people haven't long been asking "what the hell is wrong with young white men?" after this kind of rampage killing. In no way is this question new, nor do we have any particularly satisfying answers, and answers become even more elusive when one sifts through the rampage murder stats for other countries/ cultures/ ethnic groups/ races.

    (B) As incomprehensible, outrageous, and grievous as Holmes' rampage was, if you look up the number of rampage/spree killings in the U.S. in the past 85 years (granted wikipedia is not infallible, but I see less than 30) and the U.S. population (which in that time has swelled from ~119 million to ~312 million), at any given time rampage killers comprise 0.000005 to 0.000016% of the population. If 95% of these rampage killers are white (90% is closer to accurate), that's 0.0000045 to 0.000014% of the population.

    That's more than a very thin percentage from which to draw some blanket condemnation of young white males, IMO.

    The question I find far more problematic is "what the hell is wrong with 15- to 35-year-old men of ALL colors and ethnicities and/or what the hell is wrong with human culture that such a disproportionate amount of human violence is committed by this demographic?"

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