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Today sucked.   We came back from a few days of enjoying the eeriely nice weather here in WA (the trees are under a lot of water stress but the sunshine is nice) and came home to a burglery in progress.  

I won't go into details but we confronted the burgler (not a good idea) and got the licence number (good idea.)   Eventually the police obtained what we consider to be very solid proof of the burglary.

I do not know what we can expect from here.   The burgler is in custody.  It is a PITA to go to court (different island) but we will do it.   They know where we live and we know where they live.     More than one involved but one in custody.    A lot of expensive stuff was stolen while we were away but we caught the person only with much less expensive stuff.    The police seemed to think that whether or not it was actually my property that they were parked on was important, I don't know why.    I heard but did not see them inside of my house; we confronted them at their car (or rather they confronted us.)

I'm rambling.   Still shaken; unknown to me they were in my house at the same time as me, armed with a knife stolen from my house; if I had not decided that I was hearing rats and didn't want to bother going upstairs this could have had a different outcome.   They damn near drove over my wife getting away.

Oh yeah, this was not a person of color nor somebody young.

Is this case going to go anywhere?  

Oh yeah, those who think the world ended because you think Obama sucked at a debate?   Go to hell.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Of Course, Perspective Is Everything.... (22+ / 0-)

    So glad you & your wife were not hurt.  But, you are still traumatized.  Breaking & entering & stealing is a violation of your space.  It undermines your sense of security.

    A bad night on the debate stage is just that.  Your experience is the stuff of real life.  

    Change your locks, install some security perimeter lights & get a security system if you can.  Hope you have a big dog to keep you company & help keep you safe.  Stay well.  

  •  Wow. Scary indeed. (13+ / 0-)

    I don't know what the cops can or cannot do.  If you nailed the perps at the scene (your house) with the goods (your stuff), I should think you're okay.

    It's late here (EDT) but I hope someone with experience will chime in.

    All I can say is, it's only STUFF, you're alive, your family is intact, and the cops probably know their jobs.

    Have a nice glass of wine (or a shot and a beer, if you're really freaked out) and try to relax a little.  It's not easy, I know.

    Wishing you the best.

    To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

    by Youffraita on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 12:42:21 AM PDT

  •  seek a lawyer's advice (14+ / 0-)

    The first visit with any lawyer is free. You might visit several, to see which one you like -- and pick up some good advice along the way.

    E.g., what would it take to get a restraining order on both the individuals (or more), to stay away from you, your wife and your house?

    Document whatever you can, about what was stolen -- as much detail as possible. Make a list, and keep adding to it.

    Ask police where items like yours might be 'fenced' -- in Seattle? Tacoma? Renton? Tukwila? Bremerton? If there are heirlooms, notify pawn shops etc. that you will buy them back. (If it's things you don't care about, notify the pawn shops that they've been stolen -- some will help you bust the guys, others won't.)

    If you have neighbors within eyesight who you trust, confide in them and ask them to keep an eye out for any strangers.

    Install motion-sensor lights all around the house -- some up high (gables, trees), or if down low then covered with a thick mesh screen so the bulbs can't be quickly unscrewed. (The cheapest ones at Home Depot or Lowes are only $15 for the sensor and two spotlight sockets. Use long-lasting fluorescent bulbs.  For e.g. a tree in your driveway without power, there's a solar-panel one for $80, pricey, and you might use LED bulbs which are also pricey -- but one in your driveway might be worth it.)

    You can buy CCTV cameras pretty cheap on eBay, but they can be a nuisance to set up. You can also buy dummy fake cameras (w/ glowing red LED), cheap and easy.

    Ask the lawyer if you can/should initiate a civil suit against the burglars, to at least cover the cost of re-securing your property (and possibly emotional damages).

    Depending on your circumstances, you could look into renting out a room, so someone is there when you're away. (A big life change, obviously, just brainstorming.)

    This sounds very upsetting, indeed. Courage!

    •  Telling pawn shops you'll buy your stuff back ... (12+ / 0-)

      isn't the way to go.  If stolen items are seen at a pawn shop, the police will retrieve them ... but they'll probably keep them in the evidence room until the case is disposed of.  Also, any items recovered should be reported to the insurance company to avoid being caught up in a fraud case.

      I wouldn't waste the time thinking about suing the defendants.  If they had assets worth winning, would they be out conducting burglaries?  And no lawyer would take a case of this type on contingency, so the plaintiff would be out-of-pocket for attorney's fees and court costs, too.

      At least the value of the items stolen is tax deductible, if it exceeds as certain AGI.

      "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

      by Neuroptimalian on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 01:52:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  You seem like a very well-meaning person (9+ / 0-)

      who has never lived in Hell's Kitchen, Manhattan.

      You don't institute a civil suit against the asshole who climbed up your fire escape, broke his way through the window, and stupidly dropped his driver's license in your apartment.

      (Really happened to a friend of mine.)

      No: you call the cops, give 'em the perp's driver's license, and hope they find your stuff before said perp sells it to his fence.

      Then you clean the fingerprint powder off of everything, vent to a well-meaning friend, and get better gates installed on your windows.

      ESPECIALLY the fire escape window.

      And you hope the burglar gets put away for enough years to learn a real trade and go straight.

      As if!  But one does wish for it...

      To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

      by Youffraita on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 02:00:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  BTW there are some great security gates (6+ / 0-)

        out there which can block access but still give you ingress.  I would suggest welded steel window gates and have a dual system of interior and exterior gates since all you are trying to do is slow down the burglar and frustrate him.  Also be careful how you install the gates so their attachment hardware is not readily accessible.

        I would also set up "nanny cams" at any point of ingress such as doors and windows.  Multiple cams camouflaged as  ordinary household items can record the burglars.

        BTW also up your home and/or renters' insurance and make sure they cover such things.  Also take pics of all valuables and keep them offsite along with appraisals of their value

        •  Usually my landlord (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Forester15, CitizenOfEarth, G2geek, Lujane

          already had the gates installed, but when I bought them, they were the best.

          I never, in twenty years, got my apartment broken into.

          But, as noted, a friend of mine did, and he freaked out.

          And yes, the perp really DID drop his driver's license.

          Hahahahahahaha.

          To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

          by Youffraita on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 02:18:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that is why I advocate using a dual gated (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, ColoTim, Lujane

            system of an internal and external gate.  Even if he frustrates one gate, the burglar is faced with yet another one.  Usually he gives up and seeks a softer target.  In and out quickly is the burglar's mantra

          •  Just out of curiosity, how'd he do that? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek, Lujane, Youffraita
            the perp really DID drop his driver's license.
            That seems really bizarre----was he leaving his business card and his license fell out? Ive heard of it happening---but definitely the Bozo award of the year (Absolutely NO offense meant to Bozo-Americans)

            Happy just to be alive

            by exlrrp on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 03:56:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We never figured it out. (0+ / 0-)

              Best guess, he was putting something in (or out) of the same pocket his license was in.

              But, no, no freakin' clue how the thief managed to prove who he was in the course of the burglary.

              To make the argument that the media has a left- or right-wing, or a liberal or a conservative bias, is like asking if the problem with Al-Qaeda is do they use too much oil in their hummus. Al Franken

              by Youffraita on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 03:53:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  You seem like a very well-meaning person (0+ / 0-)

        who has never lived in the San Juan or Puget Sound Islands, WA.

        The idea of installing window gates on a house in Orcas Island is funny. :-) Thanks for the laugh.

        These islands are usually a neighborly, peaceful, tranquil, trusting community.

        I didn't live in Hells Kitchen, but I did live on: Tompkin Sq Park in the 1980s (before it gentrified), 10th St & Ave A, Park Slope (as it gentrified), upper west & east sides. There, iron gates are de rigeur.

        I have no idea of the circumstances -- e.g., are the thieves the delinquent sons of a wealthy neighbor? -- but a lawyer or DA can advise on the pros and cons of a civil suit.

        Fingerprint powder? *laugh* Funny. :-) They caught the guys, red-handed.

        Yeah, agreed that jail is not likely to educate them much.

      •  wow, your friend's place got fingerprinted? (0+ / 0-)

        around here, if you're lucky, the police will take a written report via phone & your phone number, and you'll never hear from or see them again! chasin' those brown suckahs & them drug dealers is SO much more important!

        "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

        by chimene on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 11:22:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I would suggest talking to the DA about (6+ / 0-)

      prosecuting  the one who was caught to make an example of him.  Many DAs are receptive if it is a case where lots of cases might be solved all at once.

      As far as the loot goes, it is probably gone.  We had a wedding band which was in the family for more than 100 years stolen last year and we never recovered it despite a $1000 reward

      •  Talking to the DA is damn good advice. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, ColoTim, Lujane, Sharon Wraight

        After Orcas has a chance to calm down, hold his wife, talk it out with friends, Putting up security gates or that shit, especially if the neighbors have none, yells "stuff here". Don't tell me it means the bad guys won't be able to get in, don't even start with that. A wife makes a fine hostage to get any door open.

        (Most of this for everyone BUT the commentor. It's the only way I can post.)

        My personal computer is limited, can't post without tagging on. Community computer better. Pardon tagging to comments, spelling, please.

        by CuriousBoston on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:02:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The first visit with every lawyer is not free (5+ / 0-)

      You have to ask. Many lawyers do this, but not all.

    •  First lawyer consult not necessarily free. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim

      The first visit to discuss a malpractice or 'ambulance chaser' lawsuit is almost always free, because there's always a shot at a huge payday for the lawyer so they'll generally take the first vist 'on spec'.

      But if you're asking for specific legal advice, you should expect to pay for it.

      Instead I would advise speaking with 1) the prosecutor's office that will be handling the case and 2)the local crime victims' board. These are free services.

      Most states have some kind of crime victims' board that will walk you through what to do and what not to do, how to deal with the sense of violation, and any compensation your locality may provide. And it's all free.

  •  Wow! (9+ / 0-)

    Yes, and I do have to agree with you that your day really sucked.

    First things first..... change all of your locks! Make sure all is secure with your home for your piece of mind.

    I had a burglary once ages ago, but did not walk in on the perps.  It is an awful sense of intrusion, but nonetheless, I realized that it's only things..... and this helped me some to settle down.  That everyone is ultimately safe is the most important thing.

    As for the legal process, I'm imagining that the local law enforcement authorities know their jobs and will eventually let you know that all is involved.  It may be a lot, so be prepared, and it may not..... maybe since so little time passed since the robbery and then you reporting it.... just maybe some things can be retrieved, although I wouldn't hold my breath with that.

    As for court, the more prepared you are to see this through, the more likely a plea deal may be reached..... just sayin.......

    All the best to you and your wife with this.  

  •  How frightening -- and maddening. (4+ / 0-)

    Good advice above, but I would add: Assuming you have homeowner's/renter's insurance, call your insurance company ASAP. Do this before you bother consulting a lawyer, just don't rush to agree to any reimbursement. They'll need the police report before they act anyway, but they'll want to open a file immediately and can help you with next steps. That's part of what you've been paying for -- they do this every day, and they can take some of the emotion out of it. (Insurance companies can be evil, but good property/casualty companies are usually pretty decent at this sort of claim.)  

    Document not just what was lost but everything you spend in connection with recovering from this (e.g., lock replacement).

    Best of luck.

  •  we were broken into last week by some burglars (4+ / 0-)

    who were loading up tools and other stuff from the workroom.  Son spotted them and yelled and they ran.  They dropped most of the stuff but still got some stuff.

    They were gone by the time I got to the door.  Thank goodness it was not a home invasion but I did to to the door armed.

    If there were a home invasion and I had time, I would retreat to our safe room, which also contain a phone and firearms and wait for the cops.  A 12 gauge double barreled coach gun  is a powerful deterrent to not break into our safe room

  •  Sorry about your troubles; glad you are safe; (4+ / 0-)

    and I agree with and thank you for your final paragraph!

  •  It happened to me once... (4+ / 0-)

    I had to file charges to get my insurance to pay. The man eventually plea-bargained. I never heard from him again. Get a couple of dogs, by the way. They avoid dogs.

  •  AFTER A BURGLARY (6+ / 0-)

    It can be like a little death. Something that can never be reversed.

    I suppose what happens next depends on the practices in your jurisdiction. I can only speak for my own experience in Britain (my fathers house was burgled the week  after he died).

    The police gave me a legal letter with a crime number for any insurance claims and a contact number with a liaison officer.  

    Fortunately little of value was taken. The police warned me that this kind of opportunistic break-in had a low clear-up rate and in fact it is still unsolved.
    They sent me follow up reports a couple of months later so I knew what the score was. If there had been arrests I would have been alerted by a liaison officer.

    One warning. Criminals read death notices in local papers to find houses to target. They also note where a house has been burgled and that property is regarded as being at risk from being burgled a second time some months later (when items such as TVs etc have been replaced with insurance money).

    Are things different in the USA? One good thing about Britain is that because so few people have firearms at home criminals dont bother to carry guns when doing burglaries. Bu would high US home firearm ownership deter the repeat burglaries strategy?

    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

    by saugatojas on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 02:52:39 AM PDT

  •  I sorry for your trouble. We were broken into (4+ / 0-)

    twice (not including car). The first time was in Brooklyn (NY). My husband surprised the burglar, a hapless alcoholic from the neighborhood, leaving our apartment with a cassette player. The man dropped the cassette player and started to cry. My husband offered to let him go if he answered two questions. As my husband was a grad student in sociology at the time, he wanted to know the man's socioeconomic status (see above, and the man was of Irish background and long-term unemployed in the Reagan recession). The second question was how he got into the apartment. After the man left, we nailed the window shut.

    The second time, a teenager from our suburb stole a computer. The police caught him several days later breaking into another house, and our computer was in the back seat of his car. The boy, who had broken into several other houses to steal laptop computers, served a 30-day stint in jail and six months probation. Five or so years later, my husband was assigned to interview his younger brother for college as an alumni interviewer. Because the burglar had a common surname, hubby didn't know the interviewee was his younger brother until the boy mentioned that his older brother had mental health issues and served time in jail for burglary. (Hubby did not mention that we were among those burgled.)

  •  If you're worried about your physical safety (3+ / 0-)

    and you have a smartphone, you could always pick up an IP cam for @ 80.00.  Cameras in this price range come with infrared, sound (both hearing and speaking), and the ability to take motion capture snapshots and email them to you.  If you set up a specific address just for the camera's emails, then all you have to do is a quick check of that email from your phone before you come back and enter an empty house.

    You could also leave the camera monitor running on a pc while you're in the house to provide a decent "burglar alarm" as well.  Most of them will provide a good loud beep when the motion alarm goes off.

    If I were nervous about returning to an empty house after a burglary, I think this is what I'd do.

  •  Be careful with Facebook folks (5+ / 0-)

    I see people announce vacation plans and use the cell phone location apps on FB all the time. What easier way to know where you are and how long you'll be gone.

    If you post on FB with share level set to "Friends of Friends", that avails your info to tons of people. The average Facebook user has ~200 friends. So that simple post that you are "Going to the Big Concert tonight" is viewable by up to 40,000 people.

    "It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." - Morpheus

    by CitizenOfEarth on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 04:14:16 AM PDT

    •  Very good advice, I'm not on Facebook. How many (3+ / 0-)

      people ever think of that? I was away, the older man that assisted the super at my former apartment told my brother, coming to pick me up, that I was away for a vacation, he was sure I wasn't home. He wasn't the assistant anymore. Nice man, but.

      My personal computer is limited, can't post without tagging on. Community computer better. Pardon tagging to comments, spelling, please.

      by CuriousBoston on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:07:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Myson's houlse got hit that way (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CitizenOfEarth, Sharon Wraight

      His wife Facebooked everything.  We left Texas, on a family trip, and by the time we got to Chicago, their house was burglared.

      A different son:  A friend went to work one morning, came home in the evening to find nothing left in his apartment.  Bad guys had used a moving truck and took everything.  As all the neighbors were also gone during the day, no one saw anything.

      Personally, have had it happen twice.  Kids, both times.  

      My condolences to the diarist.  Most of the ideas here are good.  File your insurance claim, work with law enforcement.  Go through the stages of grief.  And good luck to you.  

      If you want to know the real answer: Just ask a Mom.

      by tacklelady on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 08:08:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We've been having trouble (4+ / 0-)

    in my neighborhood - they are coming in when people are home. Access has been back patio doors and garages, with the cooler weather folks are opening up their houses to let in the air. One thing I have been doing is keeping purses, laptops & cell phones out of sight from the outside to minimize the chances of a smash and grab.
    Scary for you - I am grateful you and your family are safe.

    •  happened at my GF's house in August (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim, Sharon Wraight

      She had the kitchen window (overlooking back yard) open to let cool air in during a recent hot spell in August.  While she was at work one day, with no car in front, someone pried off the kitchen window screen & got in as far as putting their foot on the kitchen counter when her adult son, who was at home, heard the noise & came to investigate; that must've scared off whoever it was.  Judging by the size of the small footprint, it was a kid, but still an unnerving experience.

      "Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest..."

      by profundo on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 08:00:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Feels like a violation - icky (3+ / 0-)

    I'm sorry for your trouble. Some thieves broke into our garage Friday night and stole some items that are really not very valuable, except to me. They kicked in the door and broke the frame.
    I reinforced the door and bought an audible alarm, but it makes me wonder how much worse it would be to find them in my house. Thoughts of moving, getting a watch dog and even buying arms run through the mind. Unsettling.

    •  Yes. Give yourself time to think before you do (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim, Sharon Wraight

      anything like moving or buying arms. Ask the police to come out, look around, and make recommendations. If you can afford it, hire a security expert that the police RECOMMEND to look around. Expert should not be a seller of alarms or such.

      Insurance always. Use a video camera to document. Have riders on the expensive stuff. Computers can be set up to broadcast where they are, find someone who can do this. One person & the police found a crook that had a bunch of computers, taking off the financial information.

      My personal computer is limited, can't post without tagging on. Community computer better. Pardon tagging to comments, spelling, please.

      by CuriousBoston on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:13:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  One point there... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ColoTim, Sharon Wraight

      Notice that one of the thieves was armed with a knife taken from the house - that happens with guns too.  You're better off not providing intruders with ever more dangerous weapons to steal.  I'd say if you want to go weaponry, get something you wouldn't mind being hit with yourself, like pepper spray.  Better to get pepper sprayed by an intruder who just cleaned out your nightstand than shot.

  •  I think you have to push forward with it and do (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CuriousBoston, ColoTim

    everything you can do to get the person's convicted and get your stuff back. You're more likely to get it back if you are firm.
    You may have to push the police and prosecutors a little to get something done. Most police I know don't seem to think of burglary as a crime. They often are angry at the victim for making them go to the trouble of filling out a report.
    You will probably have to go to the property room yourself and look for your stolen property, if it's recovered. I had my pickup stolen, it sat in an illegal parking space for two weeks and they kept putting parking tickets on it until it was finally impounded, and I had to pay the impound fee and the tickets to get it back.

    If we do not take efforts to make our civil society work, it will continue to fall apart. Please try to see it through, for your childrens' (or someones') sake. I know it will be a pita, and it will be a heroic effort for which you will get no recognition, but do it.
    Don't be afraid of these people. Most people like this can threaten your life one day and then in 48 hours they've got another crisis involving someone else, and you're the least of their worries.
    You may need to be prudent, and you may need a restraining order, etc. but you can usually outsmart these folks by thinking ahead. They usually don't.
    I've had some  experience with potentially violent thieves and burglars.
    You will probably rest easier if you do your best to see to it that this gets resolved in a way that makes you feel like you live in a civilized and just society. If you don't, you'll have a little ration of sour grapes to carry around with you for the rest of your life.
    Hang in there, good luck.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:03:06 AM PDT

  •  Reminds me of "It Takes a Thief" on Disc Channel (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, ColoTim

    Two former burglars get families to agree to allow their homes to be burglarized while the family watches via cameras. For their trouble the family gets a state-of-the-art home security makeover. And sometime after the makeover the former-burglar hosts come back and try to break in again, most of the  time without success. But once in a while there'd be a family who didn't set the alarm or didn't lock a certain door or window and they'd get scolded for not having taken advantage of the measures they'd been given. Good show. Hot hosts, especially Jon Douglas Rainey.

    At any rate, very, very sorry, Orcaa George, to hear of your ordeal. I'm glad that you and yours were not physically harmed although I understand this incident wasn't without psychological consequence. Hope you are able to work thru it in a healthy manner. Best wishes.

    Ds see human suffering and wonder what they can do to relieve it. Rs see human suffering and wonder how they can profit from it.

    by JTinDC on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:17:09 AM PDT

  •  I've had my house broken into. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dr Erich Bloodaxe RN, ColoTim

    I came home and heard sounds in the living room. I hesitated in the kitchen, and by the time I came out they were gone. It wasn't the first time the house had been broken into, but it was the only time that I had been in the house at the time.

    We added some more security. Ours was the only house on the block with no gate in the alley. It was easy for burglars to break in, and flee out the alley. With the gate, it was a lot harder.

    We also added better screen doors, and put bars in the basement windows.

    Another thing we did was to replace the privacy fence in the front yard. Our house had privacy fences on the sides, no fence in back, and a privacy fence in front. Once were in the yard, that privacy fence gave privacy to the burglars. We replaced the privacy fence in front with a metal fence that could be seen through.

    Haven't had any break-ins in years.

    The wolfpack eats venison. The lone wolf eats mice.

    by A Citizen on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:32:54 AM PDT

  •  I'm a grandfather now; but my grandfather... (0+ / 0-)

    ... told me locks only stop an honest man.

    It's what I tell my Grand kids.

    A Poet is at the same time a force for Solidarity and for Solitude -- Pablo Neruda / The Justice Department is on Netroots Radio.

    by justiceputnam on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 06:41:33 AM PDT

  •  Context (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sharon Wraight

    Here's the region of the diarist's home:
    http://www.visitsanjuans.com/...

    This is a place where there is probably no one in the county, or maybe even the next county, who can supply security bars.  Few lock their doors.  The police know most of the bad actors by name.

    Yes, being the victim of a robbery leaves an empty spot inside of one.  The thieves or minor league, but still cause trouble.  There are always a few.

    The best advice is above where they say to gather your thoughts and emotions, realize that it isn't really as bad as it seems, do work closely with law enforcement, and go on with enjoying life.

  •  Hire a private detective to search for (0+ / 0-)

    the criminals record . Find the lawyer who took him into court previously if he has been in trouble before .

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Mon Oct 08, 2012 at 08:43:31 AM PDT

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