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Mitt Romney
One of the things nobody paid much attention to in Mitt Romney's foreign policy speech-o-rama the other day was his promise to rebuild our Navy, which is apparently doomed because:
The size of our Navy is at levels not seen since 1916. I will restore our Navy to the size needed to fulfill our missions by building 15 ships per year, including three submarines.
This is one of the many constants of modern presidential races. According to the Republican candidate, whoever they are, our military is always one step away from shambles. Whatever benefits we may have seen from ending that whole Cold War business is moot, because there is always a new threat that makes those old nuclear threats look like a game of Chutes & Ladders, and we must immediately buy many, many craploads of the most expensive possible war machines or we will die at the hands of … somebody. Usually, some isolated tinpot dictator and his minions, groups that are hard pressed to import the latest music CDs, but nevertheless poses a grave threat to our current fleet of nuclear submarines. What precise threat Mitt imagines will be mitigated by the arbitrary decision to build 15 ships a year is, of course, unclear; he promises to do it anyway.

There's one particularly gaping hole in Mitt's claim, but it can be easily explained by simply noting that Mitt Romney is a huge freaking liar. Huge!

The current level of ships, 285 in fiscal 2011, is actually not even the lowest since 1916. The historical list shows that the lowest ship force was reached during the Bush administration, when the number of ships fell to 278 in 2007. Given the change over time in the composition of the naval force, that probably is the most relevant comparison — and the trend line is up.
Well, there you go. Even if you go with the obvious Mitt logic that one 1916 rowboat equals one 2012 aircraft carrier, the core premise isn't even right. The number of ships in the fleet has increased, from George W. Bush to Barack Obama, and is increasing further. No, it's not increasing by 15 boats per year just because Mitt Romney wants them, but that's because austerity and deficits and all that other horseshit. (Just kidding: Everyone knows austerity and deficits do not apply to military spending.)

So once again, Mitt has placed a nice, fat lie right at the center of his argument. The main reason few people even care is because, I strongly suspect, there are precious few people either in politics or in the media who actually think Mitt Romney gives a flying damn about any of this foreign policy stuff in the first place. The speech was a generic regurgitation of the very constant talking points of the usual neocon suspects, to whom Romney has outsourced his foreign policy thoughts entirely. (If he had any substantive opinions about foreign policy before hiring them on, he certainly kept them even more hidden than his tax returns.) Now that he's expected to have those opinions, he brings on Bush hacks like John Bolton, Dan Senor, etc., etc., and, boom, instant foreign policy that looks uncannily like everything they've been saying for the last decade, rain or shine, wars or no wars, shrinking military or expanding military. A group of aging chickenhawks who keep forgetting to say Russia instead of Soviet Union, all itching to get their war on … again.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Even when he loses (and he *WILL* lose) (6+ / 0-)

      he won't stop the lies. He'll blame his lose on "the liberal media" and live with his filthy lucre. Maybe he'll get some book deals and speaking engagements out of it. Failure equals exposure and a big enough failure equals major air time. Just ask the Sunday talking heads about their devotion to "President" McCain. :P

      If we got Mitt to be slightly less dishonest and gave him some personality he could pass as a used car salesman.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:38:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He will like being able to make money even if he (5+ / 0-)

        loses but making money won't make up for being a loser in his mind. Obviously, first and foremost he doesn't really need the money.  Whatever he can make wont change his financial status significantly (like it did the wasillabillies).  But worse for him will be that he wanted something and wasn't able to use all his money and connections and privilege to get it. He and his wife believe with their whole being that they are entitled to win this election and that they deserve to win because they are rich and "so much better" than the resIFAD us.  A loss is going to attack those core beliefs and I think he will have problems with it. He wanted this because it was the closest thing to royalty money could by. Getting rejected by a bunch of undeserving peasants won't sit well.

        Yet another reason the GOTV. : )

        "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

        by stellaluna on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:49:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  why lie when it is so easy to show it's a lie? (4+ / 0-)

      so at the site

      http://www.history.navy.mil/...

      you can see a table that says how many ships we have had each year since 1892.

      In 1944 we had 23 battleships and 25 carriers. the total was 6084 ships of all types.

      Mitt is off by exponential factors here.

      "I want us to live up to her expectations. I want our democracy to be as good as she (Christina Taylor-Greene) imagined it." President Obama

      by guavaboy on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:41:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is a great site - thank you! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glorificus

        Huge build up during Cold War.

        David Koch is Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

        by PsychoSavannah on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 04:07:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Mitt is almost right (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glorificus

        He was not talking about 1944 but 1914, and in simple numbers of ships you are back down to numbers in the 280 level.

        It is a stupid discussion for 2 reasons,

        1. The quality issue, the SSBN boats can destroy the planet, a single Carrier Battle group could destroy the entire 1914 navy.

        2. The point of comparison is to anyone else NOW. In 1914 the Royal Navy had a standard of being bigger than the next 2 navies COMBINDED. The US Navy today is bigger than the next 10 and most of them are allies.

        •  agree with you that it is stupid. (0+ / 0-)

          it's a shout out to the shipbuilding industry.

          the military-industrial complex

          "I want us to live up to her expectations. I want our democracy to be as good as she (Christina Taylor-Greene) imagined it." President Obama

          by guavaboy on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:19:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Where's your damn tip jar? (16+ / 0-)

    Don't make me rock the boat on the lack of tip jars!

    And I think Sen. Al Franken needs to update his classic, "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them" with a special Millard Romney edition. Hell, documenting all of his lies could take at least a trilogy of books.

    If we got Mitt to be slightly less dishonest and gave him some personality he could pass as a used car salesman.

    by ontheleftcoast on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:34:29 PM PDT

    •  Al can coordinate with Steve Benen who has (0+ / 0-)

      been cataloguing R$'s lies.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:38:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who are we going to fight? (20+ / 0-)

    We have essentially the only blue-water navy in the world right now.

    Air craft carriers let us project power, a.k.a. meddle, around the globe. But in terms of fighting someone who will actually engage us in naval combat, the only scenario that seems realistic is something going very wrong with China - Taiwan or the Sprately Islands - leading to a naval conflict.

    And you know damn well Wal Mart et al will shut that war down as quickly as they can. Too many dollars being made with the status quo. The same thing happened the last time India and Pakistan started rattling sabers - the businesses invested in India pulled India's chain.

    So, the navy we need is, at most, one capable of engaging in a brief but intense war with China in the South China sea, plus however many carrier groups we want to maintain to keep the Straits of Hormuz open and so on.

    That's probably a navy half the size of the one we have now.

    Romney economics: Feed our seed corn to the fattest pigs and trust them to poop out jobs.

    by blue aardvark on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:36:20 PM PDT

    •  You're being logical, reasonable and rational. (12+ / 0-)

      Stop that.

      © grover


      Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

      by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:42:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I was going to say, why the hell has it increased (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue aardvark, annieli

      since Bush??  Under a Dem Pres it's increased?  Disappointing.

    •  This frightens me more about Romney (5+ / 0-)

      than anything else

      Now that he's expected to have those opinions, he brings on Bush hacks like John Bolton, Dan Senor, etc., etc., and, boom, instant foreign policy that looks uncannily like everything they've been saying for the last decade, rain or shine, wars or no wars, shrinking military or expanding military. A group of aging chickenhawks who keep forgetting to say Russia instead of Soviet Union, all itching to get their war on … again.
      .  If we keep the Senate we can short out his desires to destroy the economy and the middle class (again), but there are plenty of warmongers in the Senate who will overreact to any foreign threat, imagined or otherwise.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:54:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We might have to invade someone so Mitt can (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue aardvark

      withdraw his money.

      The Caymans, Bermuda, and Switzerland better watch out!

      NC-4 (soon to be NC-6) Obama/Biden 2012

      by bear83 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 04:09:15 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, I think we should mothball a few (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dansmith17

      carrier battle groups, or at least the carriers themselves.

      We have 11 carriers (thought the venerable Enterprise is due to be decommissioned soon). Maintaining a carrier battle group at sea is expensive, and I would argue that except for keeping the Straits of Hormuz open, too many carrier groups encourage us to poke our nose into places it doesn't belong.

      We should be focusing our attention at lowering our dependence on oil altogether so that we can stop patrolling the Straits altogether.

      Even with just five carriers and their battle groups, we could easily take on all the other carriers in the world and probably sink them in one day.

      That carrier the Chinese have? Let me know when you can show me footage of a pilot successfully landing and taking off from that piece of junk.

  •  3 submarines (17+ / 0-)

    PLUS, if we build seven more, we get one FREE!

    "I'm sorry, I have no pithy, insightful, enlightening quote for my signature." --- Me

    by liberalagogo on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:37:59 PM PDT

  •  Re the Navy ... as Jim Morrison said ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gorette, mwm341

    The lights are getting brighter
    The radio is moaning
    Calling to the dogs
    There are still a few animals
    Left out in the yard
    But it's getting harder
    To describe sailors
    To the underfed

  •  These Front Page posts (6+ / 0-)

    are getting kind of tedious. Could you please simply let us know with BREAKING NEWS headers when Mr Romney says something truthful.

    If he simply says, "I had a sandwich for lunch," that's worthy. At this point, it's obvious that every freaking word, phrase and sentence that he spews is blatantly, often absurdly dishonest.  

    So it's no longer news.

    Please get back to me when you have something to report, that is, something outside the norm of everyday events.

    Many thanks.

    © grover


    Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

    by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:41:14 PM PDT

    •  I think that's probably (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Marti, schnecke21, glorificus, mwm341

      what The Stench is going for.  His constant lies become so commonplace, they become acceptable.   Sadly, I think we're already there.

      "I'm sorry, I have no pithy, insightful, enlightening quote for my signature." --- Me

      by liberalagogo on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:47:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well good luck (4+ / 0-)

      with that. Mitt went to Chipotle and said he "usually gets the burrito" - he even lies about lunch & pretends he's a regular customer of Chipotle.

      •  I realized that as soon as I wrote "sandwich." (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hulibow, The Marti

        I've only eaten at Chipotle one or twice. Do they serve anything besides burritos?

        © grover


        Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

        by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:53:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Marti, grover

          I'm still wondering if Costco sells dress shirts in a 3 pack, which is an excellent I'm a real person anecdote if it's true!

          •  No. Costco does not. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hulibow, roadbear

            In fact, they just rolled out the men's dress shirts for the year (they usually do a big roll-out between summer and the holidays, good for holiday gifts). I bought my husband a few. We snickered as we searched for his size, that of ALL the many types, colors  and brands of shirts, not a single 3-pack anywhere.

            © grover


            Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

            by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:25:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  tacos, salads, chips - it's a limited menu. (0+ / 0-)

          "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

          by glorificus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:42:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  But he'd say "I had a sandwich for lunch..." (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      grover, burlydee, The Marti, METAL TREK

      "but I discarded the bread and kept the lettuce and filling so it was really a salad."  Just so he could pander to the salad-minded and carb conscious among the "Likely-voter/independent demographic".  

      A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism. -Carl Sagan

      by jo fish on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:50:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nah, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Marti

        those salad-eaters are Dems.

        What he'd actually say is "I had a sandwich" but what he really ate was the filet mignon/lobster surf and turf plate and a slice of bread while waiting for it to arrive.

        Meat, bread, with the green stuff on the plate as garnish.

        So, it was sandwichy, right?

        © grover


        Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

        by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:56:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  But Grover, Mitt wants to fire you , Elmo and Big (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Marti, SquirrelQueen, glorificus

      Bird, that is still breaking news.  And he  wants to fire every Cookie Monster out and heaven help us, Oscar the Grouch too.  

      LOL

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:53:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, I know that. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vzfk3s, The Marti, glorificus

        If you see elmo around here in the next few days, we're posting from a secret undisclosed location.

        © grover


        Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

        by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:58:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If you see Darth Cheney in the undisclosed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dansmith17

          location, kick him out of there..or melt down some of his metal parts that hold him together...I am convinced he is made of all metal parts

          Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

          by wishingwell on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:45:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  He's actually lending us his. (0+ / 0-)

            He has grandkids, and they're fans.

            Even Darth never would stoop so low as to kill Big Bird. That's saying something.

            © grover


            Join Muppets Against Mitt! Go to www.barackobama.com to join now. This message brought to you by the number 2012 and the letters B and O.

            by grover on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 04:41:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  The incredible failure of the American media (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, PsychoSavannah

    Shapes American politics into a monstrous parody of the nation- state.   Government, Inc.  I'm surprised they even continue to perpetuate the myth of a free people.  

    I can’t decide who’s cuter – the dead guy with the arrows in his chest, or the guy in the ditch with the seeping wound. -- Game of Thrones (Heard on Set)

    by prodigal on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:42:08 PM PDT

  •  Apparently when Dipshit Mitt was robbing pensions (12+ / 0-)

    back during the 80s he missed what was at the time the proposed "600 ship Navy" that was driven by the National Security Hawks and St Ronnie with his resident fellater, John Lehman as SECNAV.

    The whole concept of a 600 ship Navy was ridiculous beyond belief, the Navy would never have been able to man that number of ships properly and keep families together, or have what was known as a reasonable balance of what was known as "OPTEMPO/PERSTEMPO" (operational to personnel deployments).  The fundmental issues of maintenance, upkeep, manning and deployment coupled with very real budgetary issues made the whole 600 ship Navy a non-starter, but they did try, they really did.

    I made at least two deployments over 9 months with different Carrier Battle Groups, to the Indian Ocean during the Irani Hostage Crisis and afterwards.  The number of guys who wanted nothing more than to get the hell out of the Navy was astonishing, but completely unsurprising.  At the point where Aviators were putting in their "papers" to head out to civilian life and/or the Airlines, the Navy decided that upping the payback for flight training and paying more would make people happier about being away from their families for longer periods. The payback from getting your wings went from four years (for me) to six, then eventually 10 years, which is quite a commitment for a young person.  

    Over the last few years as the size of the Navy has drawn down, and they have allowed women to deploy, I think manning and operational tempo have gotten better (one is not directly related to the other BTW), but if they decide to go back to a huge Navy they're going to find themselves facing the same things we had in the 80s and 90s, recruiting, manning and training issues that will prove that insanity is defined by doing the same thing over and expecting a different result each time.  

    A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism. -Carl Sagan

    by jo fish on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:42:22 PM PDT

  •  And about those submarines, (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Smoh, Hard to Port, wishingwell, The Marti

    Mitt Romney is going to build them by himself.

    The definition of INSANITY: Voting Republican over and over and over and expecting the economy to get better.

    by pollbuster on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:42:27 PM PDT

  •  Our 2012 Navy would kick (5+ / 0-)

    ass over our 1916 Navy. It would take about a day to destroy every last ship of the 1916 Navy, and I doubt we'd even lose one 2012 ship in the battle. There's just no contest.

  •  Gunboat diplomacy is what Mitt seems to have... (10+ / 0-)

    ...in mind, or rather, what those neocon advisers have in mind. "Projecting power" apparently can be done by drones alone in the world of Mitt's foreign policy team.

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:46:10 PM PDT

  •  You know, "ships" is incredibly vague. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti, vzfk3s, Egalitare

    Does he mean 5 life-rafts, 7 zodiacs, and 3 swift boat (campaigns)? Or 9 destroyers, 4 cruisers, and 2 carriers? Or is he just going to build 15 new supertankers for all the jobs he's going to ship overseas?

    -this space for rent-

    by EsnRedshirt on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:47:42 PM PDT

  •  Mitt and Company Completely ignoring innovations (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hard to Port, The Marti, bear83

    USS Florida

    USS Florida (SSBN-728/SSGN-728), an Ohio-class ballistic missile submarine, is the sixth ship of the United States Navy to be named for the 27th state. She was commissioned with the hull designation of SSBN-728; with her conversion to a cruise missile submarine, she was re-designated SSGN-728.
    ------------snip--------------
    Operation Odyssey Dawn

    On 19 March 2011, in conjunction with other U.S. Navy and Royal Navy warships, Florida fired scores of Tomahawk missiles at Libyan air defense targets as part of Operation Odyssey Dawn.[6] The Tomahawk missile strikes allowed British, French, and allied warplanes to begin enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya, preventing Muammar Gaddafi from using the Libyan Air Force to attack rebels in his country.[6] This was the first conventional or nuclear combat mission for the Florida or any other Ohio-class submarine.[7] During Operation Odyssey Dawn, Florida launched 93 Tomahawk missiles, with 90 effective, out of her total magazine of about 160 missiles.[8]

    Of the four Ohio-class SSGNs in the U.S. Navy, Florida was the only one that was available for use in Operation Odyssey Dawn since she was the only one that had been assigned to cruise the Mediterranean Sea. Some other Tomahawk missiles were fired by American surface ships and by a few Royal Navy nuclear submarines.

    The effective reach of a Tomahawk is some 900 Nautical miles. The Effective reach of a carrier based f-18 is some 390 nautical miles.

    The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

    by JML9999 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:47:55 PM PDT

    •  Just a nit, I think that's 390 NM without (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JML9999

      tanker support,which in the Navy is usually an organic asset from the carrier.  And at least these F/A-18s can do that, the first ones in the fleet could take off with either fuel or ordnance, but not both.  They had to tank right off the catapult and then proceed to their mission and be tanked again enroute the carrier to make it aboard.  Yet another John Lehman folly.  

      A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism. -Carl Sagan

      by jo fish on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:56:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah I was assuming all hell is breaking loose and (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        annieli

        the pilot is a little busy trying not to die.

        The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

        by JML9999 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:00:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Seems like nothing but a money sink. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, bear83, schnecke21

    What would that even do? Some people paid to build ships... Then great, we have a bunch of ships out there, doing nothing, making no money, defending nothing that the previous 270+ couldn't have handled before.

    Seems like nothing but a money sink.

  •  But will the "mainstream" media call him out? No. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wishingwell, Helpless
  •  You can get accurate numbers, verified by the DOD, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JML9999

    here:

    http://www.history.navy.mil/...

    He was not that far off.  

    Force levels are down to WWI levels.  

    Before the proposed defense cuts, ship numbers were trending up again after having hit a historical low in 2007 due to a change over in the types of force that we were building.  We started to phase out our bigger ships in order to start switching over to building more littoral combat ships, a class of relatively small surface vessels intended for operations in the littoral zone (close to shore).  You need those ships in most of our major hot spots these days.

    These are the times that try our patience, and our relationships with Muppet characters.

    by SpamNunn on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:49:12 PM PDT

    •  Mitt Playing word games (0+ / 0-)

      see also Voucher vs Premium Support

      The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

      by JML9999 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:53:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Navy wants more of the LCS's and more subs to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JML9999

        fight asymmetrical warfare.  The automatic defense cuts will stop those programs dead in their tracks.  

        Other countries have these fast moving and multi-purposed ships.  We are late to this dance.  

        These are the times that try our patience, and our relationships with Muppet characters.

        by SpamNunn on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:01:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They're cheaper, too. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JML9999

          These are the times that try our patience, and our relationships with Muppet characters.

          by SpamNunn on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:03:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •   Last time I checked Navy.mil (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ender

            49 hunter killer attack subs to blow the other guy's navy out of the water.
            40 Los Angeles Class
             3 Sea Wolf Class
             6 Virgina class

            realizing n number are "in the shop" for repairs

            for those who claim we'd be defenseless

            The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

            by JML9999 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:07:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Maybe because aircraft carriers (0+ / 0-)

      make inviting targets for cruise missiles.

      I don't recall hearing that we've deployed any antimissile systems yet.

      Even Democrats can be asses. Look at Rahm Emanuel.

      by Helpless on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:04:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fighting the last war we won? (6+ / 0-)

    Republican military strategy, and it appears to be the Conventional Wisdom in The Village, is all about heavy weapons, ships, and armies of the type used to fight large battles between nation-state armies.  In other words, World War II, with some adjustments for the Cold War standoff against the Eeevill Rooskies.  Submarines fit that model, as do costly tanks. Hey, we won that one, unlike the standoff in Korea, the disaster in Vietnam, and the embarrassment in Iraq.  And there's no actual victory possible in Afghanistan.  (Grenada doesn't count.)

    Not that President Obama has been resisting that idea very much either, but Willard is practically foaming at the mouth when he thinks about heavy ships.

    But modern warfare is totally different.  National armies don't fight each other.  It's all civil wars, guerilla operations, and organized terror movements like the Taliban.  The enemy doesn't wear uniforms, doesn't drive tanks, and doesn't surrender when you "capture" territory.

    So modern military requirements are different.  Submarines and nukes don't help one iota against Al Qaeda or Taliban-type movements.  Aircraft carriers don't help against drug cartels.  Supersonic bombers don't help against pirates.  These types of enemies are best dealt with by small teams of very skilled people, armed with good intelligence and an understanding of the terrain.  (See Six, Seal Team.)  But that doesn't create massive contracts for General Goddamics and the other big-weapon contractors who control Congress.

    So it's not about military preparedness. It's about looting the country by profiteers.

  •  Why 15 ships a year? Why not 16? Why not 10? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dansmith17

    Why not 20?  

    •  This is not about building ships (4+ / 0-)

      This is about winning Virginia. Newport News is our largest ship yards and Mitt is promising to deliver well paying jobs for years to come. The size of our navy is just another lie to show that the Dems are weak on defense. Mitt sees Virginia as the key to the White House and pandering to the pocket book is his best way to win. It is always about the money! And promises are made to be broken!

      Whoever thinks of himself has problems but whoever thinks of others has interesting jobs to do. The greatest trick of all is simply to forget oneself. - Lama Ole Nydahl, "The Great Seal"

      by zephyr108 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 06:40:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey Stench (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ender, METAL TREK, SquirrelQueen

    what about STARFleet?  We're running kinda low on ships there.

    "I'm sorry, I have no pithy, insightful, enlightening quote for my signature." --- Me

    by liberalagogo on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:54:22 PM PDT

    •  If you would just stop fighting the Borg! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      METAL TREK

      "We will stop them at Wolf 359!"

      How did that work out? The next time that you see a Borg cube, you run!

      •  Forgive me for a nerd moment (0+ / 0-)

        But the Borg are gone from the ST universe now.  At least the primary one.

        And  we  got Picard, Janeway and Seven of Nine on our  side anyway.

        Ya know, Picard would rip the Stench a new one, when you think  about it. Although Kirk already did:

        Forgive me...The Stench doesn't quite have such a noticeable package.

        "I'm sorry, I have no pithy, insightful, enlightening quote for my signature." --- Me

        by liberalagogo on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 06:04:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Hey, he can always bring back the Battleships (4+ / 0-)

    out of mothballs.  That worked out so well in the 80s.

    What could possibly go wrong?

    A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism. -Carl Sagan

    by jo fish on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:58:04 PM PDT

  •  He'd make a great Two-Face... (0+ / 0-)

    in a Batman movie.

    Mitt Romney treats people like things. And he treats things - corporations - like people.

    by richardak on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 02:58:43 PM PDT

    •  I love Battleships! (0+ / 0-)

      Monarchs of the sea.  No one in their right mind fxxxs – er,  messes with Battleships and  we would be the only nation on earth with any.    Ours  are all worn out or being used as museums.  And some Galleons, we need some of those.   As  Maddow often says,  “ We are not going to run out of wind!”    

  •  This guy probably lies in his sleep. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Marti

    I'm not sure he knows what telling the truth really means.  

  •  so when he gets specific (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    flumptytail

    we get brilliant ideas like fire big bird and build 12 ships and 3 submarine ships.  of course he actually meant order 15 ships, perhaps from a china-based company.  if someone would write these particulars on slips of paper, then Obama for America can have a drawing for their next attack video.  

    also Romney can use one of those flipper-flappers we used to make in school to choose which idea to disavow from week to week. because he didn't mean that.  it was a confusing question that he asked himself during the speech and he took his answer out of context.

  •  Oh no! I bet this means China is going to be (0+ / 0-)

    invading California any moment.  

  •  Mitt has no idea what he is talking about!!! (9+ / 0-)

    I was a sailor about a million years ago and I do pay attention to naval issues so let me start.  In addition to what everyone else has said here.

    3 submarines per year?  A Virginia class attack submarine costs about 2 billion dollars.  Out of 30 planned, 9 have been completed and 5 are under construction.  We have limited construction capacity to build them so this just isn't going to happen.

    There had been plans to build the Zumwalt class of Destroyers but the cost was coming in at 7 billion each.  This has been shelved and the Navy wants more Arleigh Burke class destroyers at a cost of 1.9 billion each.  We have 62 and 75 was the original plan.  And it would take time to ramp up construction.

    The next generation of cruisers is in the design process.  The last to be build were ships of the Ticonderoga class.

    There are other types of ships, but just exactly how is Mitt going to pull of this construction miracle?

    Also, modern warships are far far more powerful than anything that was afloat before.  Just one of those Arleigh Burke class destroyers could sink an entire fleet of surface ships build before about 1970 and probably with aircraft carriers too.

  •  wonder if he knows these ain't yachts or (5+ / 0-)

    ski boats.  He may be thinking he needs a new one for each grandchild or something.

    "What self-respecting Republican says no to money? Even when a black man is doling it out." --Helen

    by bubbanomics on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:05:32 PM PDT

  •  The issue that is never raised (6+ / 0-)

    is that the US spends more on defense than the next 17 countries combined, yet the Republicans want to spend more but don't want to raise revenue for it.  They compare US corporate tax rates with rates from other countries (usually dishonest comparisons at that), yet the corporations are not expected to pay for the increased world security that allows them to pad their profits.

  •  He's NOT an Etch-a-Sketch DAMMIT!!! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mwm341

    When changing positions, he's more like air hockey puck.

    "Do you realize that fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous Communist plot we have ever had to face?" - General Jack D. Ripper

    by wilder5121 on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:06:26 PM PDT

  •  He is a pathological liar (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mwm341

    "Rick Perry talks a lot and he's not very bright. And that's a combination I like in Republicans." --- James Carville

    by LaurenMonica on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:16:10 PM PDT

  •  The 4th Fleet Was Brought Out Of (0+ / 0-)

    mothball storage not too long ago. That fleet had been in storage for about 58 years.

  •  Maybe we should let these hawks have their way? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    METAL TREK, glorificus, mwm341

    Only this time, we send them and their progeny to fight!!

    These leftovers from the Cold War scare me more than any 'alleged' enemy they can dream up.  If they want another hot war, let them go and fight it.  For a change.

    We have a wonderful, professional military, one that does its job without complaint, and without sufficient pay.  All I expect them to do is protect us.  That's all.  Let policy be set by the grownups....who do not include these old buggers.

    Thanks for calling attention to another of Romney's lies.  For all of us with loved ones in uniform, this matters.

    Marti

    We cannot call ourselves a civilised society if we refuse to protect the weakest among us.

    by The Marti on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:21:23 PM PDT

  •  1916 fleet (4+ / 0-)

    In 1916 the U.S. fleet included 18 torpedo boats, 17 steel gunboats, 11 wooden gun boats (think Sand Pebbles), and three monitors, among the fleet.  That's what Willard M. Is comparing the present navy to???

    Anyway, the U. S. doesn't have enough shipyards to build 15 ships a year, nor the skilled workforce, nor the material and supply infrastructure.

    •  Not to mention... (5+ / 0-)

      that in 1916 we were the third largest naval power, after Great Britain and Germany.  Now we outnumber by a considerable margin all the other navies of the world put together.  Even the Royal Navy at its zenith did not outnumber all its adversaries by such a margin.

      Well, at least Mitt gave me a reason to drag out my copy of Janes' Fighting Ships of WWI.

    •  No problem. (0+ / 0-)
      Anyway, the U. S. doesn't have enough shipyards to build 15 ships a year, nor the skilled workforce, nor the material and supply infrastructure.
      Mitt will just outsource it to China.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:52:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Dreadnought (5+ / 0-)
    The size of our Navy is at levels not seen since 1916.
    This might be relevant if we were planning to re-fight the battle of Jutland.

    But I hear the Kaiser's navy is a bit smaller than it was then, too.

  •  Could someone pretty please send Hunter to (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bear83

    counter all the bullshit that Romney is spouting and the pundits are regurgitating?

  •  If Romney really wanted to help make us (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PsychoSavannah, bear83, glorificus

    more secure, and Obama for that matter, we would build hospital ships to replace the SS Comfort and the SS Hope. 4 would probably do the trick. Nothing wins hearts and minds like showing up to help those in need. The USS Ford now under construction would be a Great place to start.

    "Behold the Turtle, it only makes Progress when it sticks it's neck Out."

    by vzfk3s on Wed Oct 10, 2012 at 03:40:43 PM PDT

  •  Plus, remember that one of today's Destroyer... (3+ / 0-)

    ...class warships is the equivalent of about 20 destroyers from the WWII era.

    One B2 bomber can bomb a target that used to require multiple sorties by 50 or more B-17s. (like the Memphis Belle)

    Comparing numbers and weapons to what we used in WWI or II is stupid and useless.

  •  MITT ROMNEY: THERE'S NOTHING HE WON'T LIE ABOUT... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mwm341

    THIS SHOULD BE THE THEME OF A SERIES OF COMMERICIALS WITH VIDEO CLIPS OF HIM SAYING HE SUPPORTS ONE POSITION IN ONE SETTING AND THE OPPOSITE POSITION IN ANOTHER SETTING!!!

    It is shocking that Obama's campaign, Democrats and there supportive PAC's are so weak in directly taking Mitt Romney to task for giving different, and conflicting answers, for his position on issues in different settings.  

    IT'S NOT SIMPLY JUST LYING!   IT'S LIKE A NEW PHENOMENOM WHERE MITT ROMNEY IS TAKING A MULTIPLE CHOICE EXAM, BUT THINKS HE CAN PICK ALL THE ANSWERS NOT JUST THE BEST ANSWER - I would refer to it as the MITTIPLE CHOICE.

    WE NEED OBAMA. THE RIGHT CHOICE.  NOT MULTIPLE CHOICE.

  •  If you were stuck in a religion like Romney's (0+ / 0-)

    you'd lie too.  Let's face it telling whoppers like Jesus was a Red Indian and an American Indian tribe was made up of wandering Jews would inure anyone to fibbing.  In some cases religion improves people but not in Mitt's case.  But neither did being a spoiled brat help him either.  

  •  The things the Navy could throw more money at (0+ / 0-)

    are personnel, maintenance, and training.  I can't for the life of me understand why we'd need more ships when we're gutting critical ratings, cutting restricted availability periods (wherein stuff gets fixed) to the bare minimum, and eliminating entire schools simply for lack of funds, under the assumption that there will be all kinds of time for on-the-job training once personnel report to their commands (at which time they find they have to do more maintenance in a shorter time with fewer bodies to throw at problems).  Beyond this, some of the ships we're spending so much on right now, like the new littoral combat ships, are of... let's just say dubious utility.

    If one really wanted to do the Navy a big favor, one might consider not committing it to so many places at once.  The BMD ships in particular barely have time to catch their breath between deployments before they're headed back out again (the capability didn't even exist a few year ago, but now that we have it the world will apparently end if it isn't everywhere, all the time), and our carrier presence in the Gulf for the last decade has taken a toll on them, too.

    Like every other branch of the armed forces, what the Navy needs is a break from perpetual global war.  Can you manage that, Mitt, or does that just sound like crazytalk to you?

  •  How much is enough? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dansmith17

    The United States spends 48% of all the money spent in the World on military expenditures.  Think about that for a moment.  The US has about 4% of the world's population, and supports nearly HALF of the world's military cost.  This does not count the many billions more in sales of US military equipment to other countries.  

    So PLEASE SOMEBODY explain why the people of the US feel that we need to do this, and WHY the Republican (and to some extent the Democrat) candidates for President think we need to continue and GROW this number???

    AND Please, while you're at it, explain to me WTF we are so convinced that we need to police the world, when the world didn't ask us to, and would appreciate it if we stopped.  JUST THINK of the wonders we cold perform if we didn't spend our children's lives and our treasure on this idiotic trend.

    •  To make money!! (0+ / 0-)

      As someone up thread said, building. More ships is about wining Virginia not having the ships.

      Building ships creates shipyard jobs and makes money for big companies who are donors, once they are built who cares what they do, we just need to build more of them dammit!

  •  Question: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glorificus

    I understand that R$ is not only talking about increasing the size of the Navy, and he's also talking about increasing the defense budget beyond anything that anyone needs and has asked for at the expense of everything else - plus increasing the size of the American Armed Forces by 100,000 or more.  

    But it brings up the question:

    If he gets his defense budget increases and all the new and improved equipment he wants, what's he going to do with it, and WHERE OR HOW IS HE GOING TO GET THE PEOPLE TO DO THE FIGHTING AND/OR OCCUPATIONS?

    Maybe you don't know anybody of draftable age...

    Rock the House in 2012!

    by mwm341 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:42:41 AM PDT

    •  This increase in the Navy or other service is just (0+ / 0-)

      to shovel more money to the MICC.

      As to who will staff it, under Mitt there will be no civilian jobs besides fast food, maids and gardeners.

      "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

      by glorificus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 07:55:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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