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House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R-WI) listens to testimony during a hearing on
Paul Ryan wistfully remembers the days when he didn't have to pretend to be offended
by his fellow rape apologists
As if it isn't already hard enough being Paul Ryan, forced by the Romney campaign to pretend he's not the uber-extremist he really is, now there's this:
Republican vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan has dropped his endorsement of a Wisconsin lawmaker who said that his father had told him "some girls, they rape so easy" as a way to warn him that women could consent to sex but then later claim they hadn't.
That would be state Rep. Roger Rivard (R-Of course), whose charming tale of fatherly advice passed on to him as a young lad surfaced this week:
"He also told me one thing, 'If you do (have premarital sex), just remember, consensual sex can turn into rape in an awful hurry,' " Rivard said. "Because all of a sudden a young lady gets pregnant and the parents are madder than a wet hen and she's not going to say, 'Oh, yeah, I was part of the program.' All that she has to say or the parents have to say is it was rape because she's underage. And he just said, 'Remember, Roger, if you go down that road, some girls,' he said, 'they rape so easy.'

"What the whole genesis of it was, it was advice to me, telling me, 'If you're going to go down that road, you may have consensual sex that night and then the next morning it may be rape.' So the way he said it was, 'Just remember, Roger, some girls, they rape so easy. It may be rape the next morning.'"

Yes, there comes a time in every young man's life when he must decide whether to "go down that road" of fucking an underage girl, because, you know, chicks, man. And their parents!

Naturally, Rivard invoked the standard Republican "out of context" excuse and then clarified his statement by explaining that he has four daughters and three granddaughters, so that's enough talk about that.

Ryan, who is also an adherent to the "some rape is not really rape 'cause bitches be lying" school of thought—which is why he was one of the House Republicans who tried to redefine rape—endorsed this guy back in August:

Congressman Ryan stated, “Roger needs to be reaffirmed to get this job done and fix the state of Wisconsin.” [...]

“This is a unique opportunity and special responsibility to get this job done in Wisconsin to help save the USA.”

Yes, that was in August, several months after Rivard shared his twisted birds-and-bees advice from dear old dad. Ryan had no problem with it back then, but now that he's on the Republican presidential ticket and must tone down the crazy in a feeble attempt to appeal to moderates, boy is he offended, according to his congressional campaign manager:
"State Representative Rivard's comments are outrageous and offensive [...] Congressman Ryan believes there is no place in our discourse for rhetoric such as this. Congressman Ryan cannot support Mr. Rivard or his indefensible comments."
Funny how he didn't believe that a few short months ago, huh? Yeah, hilarious. But that's the price you pay when you sign on to be Mitt Romney's running mate, no longer able to proudly stand with the other rape apologists:
It is the second time Ryan, a Janesville congressman, has withdrawn his support from a fellow Republican when they made comments about rape. In August, Ryan and other Republicans unsuccessfully urged U.S. Rep. Todd Akin of Missouri to drop out of his U.S. Senate race when he said women's bodies can "shut down" to prevent pregnancies in instances of "legitimate rape."
At this rate, poor Ryan won't have any friends left by election day.

Originally posted to Kaili Joy Gray on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:39 AM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos and Badger State Progressive.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Good gravy... More than anything I'm truly (20+ / 0-)

    shocked that this is what these guys genuinely believe.  This IS what they think, they just can't say it.

    I'm so thankful some of them are slipping up and letting their true colors show.  The electorate needs to know this.

    As for Paul Ryan, well he's a douchebag no matter how you slice it!

    Corporations are driven by the bottom line, not by concerns for health, safety or the environment. This is why we need government regulations.

    by the dogs sockpuppet on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:43:31 AM PDT

      •  Neither am I. What is it with Republicans... (11+ / 0-)

        and rape?

        Akin thinks some rapes are more "legitimate" than others. Apparently, there's a sliding scale.

        Rivard thinks most rape victims are liars.

        And I vividly remember a GOP would-be governor in the 1990s, telling women to just try and "enjoy" being raped!

        Texas GOP gubernatorial nominee Clayton Williams reportedly compared rape to the ever-changing Texas weather.

        “As long as it’s inevitable,” Williams was reported as saying, “you might as well lie back and enjoy it.”

        Today, Missouri congressman Todd Akin earned his own political infamy by saying that women who experience “a legitimate rape” are unlikely to become pregnant.

        Blackadder: Everything goes over your head, doesn't it, George? You should go to Jamaica and become a limbo dancer.

        by AuroraDawn on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:56:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  *blink~ (5+ / 0-)

          Tell me this sorry assed excuse for a person was drummed out of office and out of town.

          •  He lost the election in 1990 to Ann Richards. (5+ / 0-)

            He wasn't drummed out of town, though. He's in the oil and natural gas business. In 2008, he worked as a McCain fundraiser in Texas - until the McCain campaign was reminded of his "lie back and enjoy it" remark. The McCain campaign quickly severed their ties with Williams...but didn't return the money he'd given the campaign.

            Blackadder: Everything goes over your head, doesn't it, George? You should go to Jamaica and become a limbo dancer.

            by AuroraDawn on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:45:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  the thing is (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GreenMother, Larsstephens

            That line about "if it's inevitable, lie back and enjoy it" is an old, OLD line, and it's been applied to countless things as an analogy.  I strongly suspect he was parroting the analogy without thinking about its real-life meaning.

            No, that doesn't excuse him, but repeating a thing you've heard a lot isn't the same as coming up with that same thing off the top of your head.

            •  How else would a survivor take it? (5+ / 0-)

              If you said, "It was inevitable", and so you lay back and enjoyed it--the response would be:

              Then it wasn't really rape--you were asking for it. And then your case isn't pursued as strongly and in addition to being labeled a SLUT, you get the "Cry Wolf--Buyer's Remorse" label too.

              So it's a pretty fucked up thing to say with regards to Sexual assault and rape.

              And in this culture--as well as most others, you are confirming the worst things that people think of Rape survivors.

              The things they say about us, when they think we aren't around to hear. The things that affect our social standing, our professional standing, and our legal standing as well.

              Things that get back to us sooner or later, one way or the other.

              The problem is, this *Male probably has never had to just Lay Back and Take That. He has no idea what he is talking about, and most likely never will--even though he most likely limped away cursing the feminazis for ruining his "awesome campaign skills," and his "flawless character and career."

              The things that have to transpire to change a mind like that, to open a mind like that are catastrophically bad. And it leaves people like me in a quandary.

              I wouldn't wish that on anyone, what he so flippantly dismisses. But what else has to happen to pry that rusted trap he calls a brain, open?

            •  Actually, it is the same thing IMHO. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Bess Wells, Larsstephens
              No, that doesn't excuse him, but repeating a thing you've heard a lot isn't the same as coming up with that same thing off the top of your head.
              It really doesn't matter if he was "parroting the analogy" or not. Clayton heard the word rape and the first thought that came into his head was "just lie back and enjoy it."

              And I believe he meant exactly what he said. It wasn't an accident. He wasn't misunderstood or taken out of context. He said it, and he meant it. The fact that Clayton finds rape amusing (he made the remark in the context of a "joke") really tells me everything I need to know about Clayton Williams and his view of women.

              Blackadder: Everything goes over your head, doesn't it, George? You should go to Jamaica and become a limbo dancer.

              by AuroraDawn on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 03:22:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  going back to the source... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ConfusedSkyes

                ... it looks like he didn't hear "rape" and think "lie back and enjoy it".  He was talking about bad weather being inevitable, was trying to make a point and a joke about taking bad weather with good grace, and the first thought that came into his head was the old saw about what to do if rape is unavoidable.

                I think the fact that he parroted the old saw at all is a definite black mark on his character, as it demonstrates that he has never let the realities of rape ever cross his sorry excuse for a mind.  Which, as you say, kind of tells you everything you need to know about his view of women.

                But I have to disagree with your first statement:  there is a big difference between echoing some crap you've always heard and never examined, and coming up with that same crap on your own.

                •  I fail to see this "big difference." (0+ / 0-)
                  there is a big difference between echoing some crap you've always heard and never examined, and coming up with that same crap on your own.
                  What, precisely, is the difference? How does repeating horrible offensive "crap" you've heard, as opposed to horrible offensive crap you yourself made up, make it less objectionable? That seems like a cop out to me.

                  Does the fact that he didn't craft that remark make him a better human being? Does it mean that he possesses more sympathy for rape victims than the person who first came up with that little zinger? Based on what I've read about Clayton Williams, I seriously doubt it.

                  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

                  Blackadder: Everything goes over your head, doesn't it, George? You should go to Jamaica and become a limbo dancer.

                  by AuroraDawn on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:36:22 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm willing to agree to disagree (0+ / 0-)

                    but will just say this one thing first:

                    Stupidity and carelessness are a lot more common than malice, and a lot more curable.

                    If someone says something horribly offensive because it was an idea they actually thought of and put together, yes, that is much worse than someone who says something horribly offensive because they heard it and never examined it ... because in the latter case there is at least a chance that the someone in question can be made to think about it.  And possibly to see the light.

                    I've been that latter person, which is how I know.

      •  Agree. (6+ / 0-)

        Legitimate rape, easy rape, other 'pubs talking their girlfriend's into an abortion while publicly speaking and voting against abortion.

        The Republican party has gone completely off the rails of facts, reason and morality.

        "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." -- Hubert H. Humphrey

        by Candide08 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:34:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Paul Ryan can't wait to rape this country... (4+ / 0-)

      of our social services, our natural resources, our infrastructure, but mostly, of our spirit.

      Carpe Diem! @leliorisen

      by Lelio Risen on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:17:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What's frightening is not only is it becoming ok (3+ / 0-)

      to say these things, it's being accompanied by much nodding of heads. I feel as though all the visceral anger ginned up out of the tea party nuttywhackers transformed into "legitimate" policy positions as these people became mainstreamed.

      You just can't argue with crazy. It's too damn exhausting.

      I very much fear that should R/R win the election, the country will follow a destructive course not dissimilar from the one we're seeing in Louisiana. Political cronies get rich, every government service possible is get transformed into a "for-profit" private sector feeding trough paid for by taxpayers to the detriment of everyone except the plutocrats.

    •  He's my assemblyman (0+ / 0-)

      I knew he was a reputedly shady businessman—real estate. I've talked to some of the people who felt rooked.

      He is known for simply wanting to feather his own nest and change laws to suit his business aims.

      Now I know he's an asshole, and just gave Steve Smith a big gift.

      Sometimes a .sig is just a .sig

      by rhubarb on Fri Oct 12, 2012 at 06:19:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Always makes me think of this song (5+ / 0-)

    Citing the Bible as proof of God is like citing comic books to prove the existence of Superman. (h/t to Stevie Ray Fromstein @ TheHolyAtheist.com)

    by rdbaker43 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:44:19 AM PDT

  •  Say anything, do anything (10+ / 0-)

    they'll do whatever lying and hypocrisy it takes to get elected.

    My children are the joy of my life

    by Tom Stokland on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:47:02 AM PDT

  •  I always feel slimy reading anything Ryan says. nt (8+ / 0-)

    I can’t decide who’s cuter – the dead guy with the arrows in his chest, or the guy in the ditch with the seeping wound. -- Game of Thrones (Heard on Set)

    by prodigal on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:47:42 AM PDT

  •  It sounds like Representative Rivard's father (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AuroraDawn, splintersawry, JeffW, cocinero

    was speaking from a great deal of experience.

    When you don't vote, Mitt happens.

    by shoeless on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:49:40 AM PDT

  •  Biden should choreograph... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dsr2008, JeffW, GreenMother, luckylizard

    .... a defense of women speech like Warren did last night. Ryan's votes on women's issues are horrid, and Biden needs to go for the jugular.

    No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible.

    by Magster on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:50:40 AM PDT

    •  Well, on the one hand... (4+ / 0-)

      you have Biden, who co-sponsored the Violence Against Women Act (his office actually authored the legislation, no less). On the other side, you have a man who takes advice from a guy who believes rape victims were, basically, asking for it!

      Blackadder: Everything goes over your head, doesn't it, George? You should go to Jamaica and become a limbo dancer.

      by AuroraDawn on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:59:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This quote almost made fall out of my chair (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Matt Z, GreenMother, luckylizard
    Ryan, who is also an adherent to the "some rape is not really rape 'cause bitches be lying" school of thought
    LMAO!
  •  Man, these guys are fucked up. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Matt Z, GreenMother

    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    by darthstar on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:53:40 AM PDT

  •  His father probably really told him this crap. (10+ / 0-)

    But why in the world would he be repeating this story? What legitimate point was he trying to prove?

    •  The sad reality of this ugly story (5+ / 0-)

      is that the complete opposite is true: some men rape so easily. As in commit rape.

      It's this kind of stupid attitude from Rivard which is why I've always supported campaigns that remind everyone that domestic violence and rape are also clearly men's issues, because men represent the vast majority of offenders.

      Men need to stand up firmly against rape and domestic violence, and President Obama and VP Biden always have.

      Ryan and his ilk cannot say the same. By falling on the wrong side of reality, they're firmly part of the problem.

      "Nach dem Spiel ist vor dem Spiel." -Sepp Herberger

      by surfbird007 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:08:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's all about abortion laws (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      madhaus, cocinero, rosarugosa, Matt Z

      A lot of Republicans and evangelicals want to make every single abortion illegal. Maybe birth control, too.

      It bugs the shit out of them that some anti-abortion laws have exceptions for rape victims. So they're trying to redefine rape as almost non-existent. Or redefine biology (with that Todd Akin crap about legitimate rape victims not getting pregnant).

      That's why.

      But the angle said to them, "Do not be Alfred. A sailor has been born to you"

      by Dbug on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:15:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  not maybe birth control--they want to make BC (0+ / 0-)

        Illegal as well. Hence the conscience clauses that allow fucktwit workers at pharmacies to refuse to fill birth control prescriptions. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

        •  I can't take someone anti-abortion seriously (0+ / 0-)

          unless they are pro-widely-available birth control and pro-social economic justice.

          If you're really for protecting innocent life, then protect ALL innocent life.

          For the record, there's a grand total of one person I've ever met who's like this, and he's a Catholic Democrat who has few qualms voting for pro-choice politicians given his only other options.

          •  For the record, there are plenty of court cases (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            suesue

            fought, wherein these groups seek to take away the unfettered access to birth control. Entire columns have been devoted to this. It is known that this was one of the main targets all along.

            Many women did not want to believe it. And yet here we are.

            In my state they don't just try and take our access to BC, they also attempt to do away with our informed consent. My state also pioneered the RAPE BY INSTRUMENTATION law with the magic lady parts wand--also known as a vaginal ultrasound.

            Honestly, I don't really give a shit what they want, outside of their own medical needs or desires. It's the part where they try and force me to live like I go to their church, or give a damn about their imagined, doctrinal authority.

            At this point, I am all for taxing the shit out of all churches. I am that sick of it all. Fine. I am not an autonomous citizen, and the churches are no longer 5013c eligible. Whatever. And we should tax them double for property taxes, that should help make up some revenue for our ailing public school system.

          •  BTW--I am grumpy--but it's not at you. (0+ / 0-)

            Sorry if my last post seemed that way.
            I need some chocolate and a good laugh.

    •  He's showing he's a manly man, the kind for whom (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z

      all women are a secondary matter.

    •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

      I'm an older guy, and can see this kind of advice as being a well-intentioned and possibly effective warning to a young man, in the world of my youth. But anyone who passes on this kind of thing today needs to do some remedial work on himself.

  •  I hope Biden nails him on his house votes (9+ / 0-)

    What have there been? Over 30 votes on limiting women's reproductive choices alone. Then the jobs bills.  AND holding all of America hostage to get tax cuts  for the rich!

    American Television is a vast sea of stupid. -xxdr zombiexx

    by glitterscale on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 10:54:32 AM PDT

  •  Nudge, nudge (0+ / 0-)

    wink, wink

  •  The Wheels on the bus go (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    luckylizard

    go squish  squish  squish  

    The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

    by JML9999 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:04:17 AM PDT

  •  Oh, c'mon now; that was w-a-a-a-a-a-a-y back in... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Smoh

    ...August. That's, like, 60 days ago! What's up with you liberals always digging things up from the distant past to try hurting the GOP?

    :-\

    These guys are incredible, I tell you. In-fucking-credible...

    Cogito. Ergo sum ​​atheus.

    by Neapolitan on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:06:40 AM PDT

  •  I can't stand this guy. (0+ / 0-)

    I really do. I dislike him even more than "extremely conservative Romney". Ryan is an ass and has no business on a presidential ticket. How he was ever elected I will not understand. Cut medicare, school lunch programs and anti abortion for all cases even with the life of the mother is at stake? REALLY? WTH?

    What's the difference between a conservative and a bucket of shit? The bucket.

    by dsr2008 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:09:27 AM PDT

  •  Ryan & rMoney: like every guy who's tried to sell (0+ / 0-)

    me insurance

    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

    by annieli on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:11:36 AM PDT

  •  "All that she has to say" (7+ / 0-)
    "All that she has to say or the parents have to say is it was rape because she's underage"
    Because it was ACTUALLY RAPE!  That's the very definition of STATUTORY RAPE!  Consent is irrelevant if the girl is underage!  It was rape the minute it happened!

    Jesus H. Christ, the stupid is almost unendurable sometimes.

    •  Though in this specific instance (0+ / 0-)

      he was underage too, so a statutory rape case would be a lot harder. In many states it isn't statutory rape if the girl is at least 14 and the guy is within a few years of her age.

      Male, 22, -4.75/-6.92, born and raised TN-05, now WI-02, remorseless supporter of Walker's recall. Pocan for Congress and Baldwin for Senate!

      by fearlessfred14 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:37:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have news for you (6+ / 0-)

    some "rape" really isn't rape because the complaining witness was in fact lying, and in many instances, wrong about the person that they accused.  I don't mind criticizing the guy for the cavalier attitude he has toward women, rape, and especially the tragic circumstance of false accusations.  At the same time, I don't like the cavalier attitude toward defendants that is expressed either.

    I have seen plenty of situations involving false allegations of rape.  I am not saying it happens often, and I am not saying it is a trend or an epidemic.  But I have seen a family ripped apart when a 12 year old girl accused her friend's father of molestation and then used the allegation to try to get better public housing (defendant acquitted); I have seen a woman falsely accuse her husband of domestic violence because her husband was going to divorce her and she was told that victims of domestic violence were eligible for green cards (defendant acquitted); and I have seen a man serve three years in jail waiting for trial in a case where his ex-wife had her own son accuse his father of raping him because she was bitter that her ex was having a child with another woman (defendant acquitted).  

    Accusations of rape are no more or less sacrosanct than other allegations of criminal conduct.  Some are true and some are false.  Defendants in rape cases are no different than defendants in other cases and deserve the same presumption of innocence.

    I guess you could say that my views make me an adherent to "some rape is not really rape 'cause bitches be lying school of thought."  I would never put it that way, but I do think it is a liberal value to recognize that even allegations of rape can be falsely made.

    "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - J.S. Mill

    by dmsarad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:15:40 AM PDT

    •  That does happen, but I think it is more frequent (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dmsarad, madhaus, LaraJones, LucyandByron, Smoh

      that rape happens and it isn't even reported.

      I think people have to be open minded about this and not base their ideas on their own fears or opinions. I know of two people who were raped and didn't report it because they didn't have money for a lawyer, and because they didn't want their name dragged through the mud. I think that is more common.

      Does anyone know who is running against this guy? Is he up for re-election? Just curious.

      •  I absolutely agree (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rosarugosa, George Hier, Smoh

        the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.  I probably agree that incidents of unreported rape are more prevalent than false accusations of rape.  My basic point is that both possibilities suck.  I don't like mocking dismissal of rape any more than I like mocking the possibility of false allegations.

        I think the author was very close to suggesting that it is wrong to challenge allegations of rape.  Her cavalier attitude toward the victims of false accusations rubbed me the wrong way.  On this site especially, I wanted to remind people that it is a liberal value to provide every defendant with the benefit of the doubt and to recognize that just because someone is accused of a crime, even rape, does not mean they are guilty.

        "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - J.S. Mill

        by dmsarad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:38:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are right but... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rosarugosa, LucyandByron

          The reality is a woman who accuses a man of rape is brought under so much scrutiny, personal attack, and victim-blaming that many will not bother. The costs are too high and the odds of success just are too low for those without resources.

          Imagine if a mugging victim were treated as a rape victim.

          What were you doing in that bad part of town? Why were you flaunting your wealth by wearing a Hugo Boss suit? What do you expect, flashing that Rolex? Where did you get the two hundred dollars you allege was taken from you? Are you aware what your malicious claim is having on my client's reputation?  I understand you willingly lost five thousand dollars in Vegas two years ago!  Surely you can't expect us to think you value your assets when you spread them around so much!  We examined your bank account and you were overdrawn seventeen times; you are obviously too irresponsible with money to know the difference between a gift and a mugging.

          Yeah. When victims of other crimes are treated like rape victims, then let's talk about all those women who make false accusations.

          In capitalist America, bank robs you!

          by madhaus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:47:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with what you are saying (0+ / 0-)

            but you also have to recognize that rape is a different type of crime than mugging.  With mugging, there is rarely a question of whether someone consented to be mugged.  However, there are different degrees of non-consensual sex.  In what we term "stranger-rape" there is rarely any argument about consent.  The argument is typically about identity.  However, there are plenty of cases where the defendant concedes that the parties had sex, but the issue is whether or not the intercourse was with or without consent.  Rape shield laws exist to prevent most complaining witnesses from being cross-examined in their sexual history.  At the same time, rape shield laws have exceptions to allow inquiry into past sexual history where it has a direct relationship to the issue of consent, such as where the parties have a history of consensual sexual intercourse.

            Simply put, rape is treated differently because rape is different.

            "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - J.S. Mill

            by dmsarad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:51:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You are discussing the ideal (0+ / 0-)

              The reality is there are many times  more women who don't file rape complaints than make false ones. they see it as a likely loss to their reputation with low likelihood of prevailing, so why bother?

              Try talking to some actual women, especially those without political power, instead of describing the law as written. Everyone knows for those with money and influence, the law often doesn't apply.

              In capitalist America, bank robs you!

              by madhaus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:11:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Stranger rape/ rarely any argument about consent (0+ / 0-)

              To which I say nonsense. Again, you need to talk to some actual woman and stop quoting how you wish the world was.

              In capitalist America, bank robs you!

              by madhaus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 01:21:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  You have it backwards. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LaraJones, madhaus

              Rape is different because rape is treated differently.

              The reason no one questions the veracity and morality of a victim of theft is that there is no entrenched cultural disapproval of people who give away money.  There is no default assumption that anyone with a habit of giving away money could not possibly have been robbed, because why would they have said no to giving away money this one time?  There is no history of people who want to give away money being told that they shouldn't, or of people who want to take money being told that it's perfectly okay for them to take it so long as they don't take it from nice people, because nice people don't give money away.

              Yes, it is very possible to make a false accusation of rape.  But the playing field between accuser and accused is not level, and it is false and dangerous to claim that it is.

    •  I was a prosecutor 30 years ago (5+ / 0-)

      And I concur, this stuff does happen.  It is rare, and doesn't call into question the vast majority of rape accusations, but it does happen.  It may be different now, but 30 years ago it did happen.  And it is good advice for a father to give a son, essentially be careful before you have sex. I heard a woman on TV say that false accusations of rape are no more frequent than false accusations of any other crime, 2 to 5%.  I accept that.  But that means 1 out of 50 to 1 out 20 rape accusations are false.  That's pretty high.  (BTW, I don't know if that includes false ID in stranger rapes or not.)  

      Having said that however, for a candidate to repeat that as fatherly advice shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the political process.  

      •  I couldn't have said it better (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        brooklyn137

        you really summed up exactly what I was trying to say.  I think it is good advice to remind your child to be careful to avoid situation where there is any possible ambiguity about consent.  I think it is possible to do so without expressing a cavalier attitude toward women and rape.  At the same time, I think there is a way to criticize the way he expressed his view without denigrating the fact that both men and women have been falsely accused of rape.

        "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - J.S. Mill

        by dmsarad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:41:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  On the subject of "ambiguity" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dmsarad, LucyandByron, madhaus

          which is summoned as an excuse by rapists who want to avoid responsibility:

          http://rapeinfo.wordpress.com/...

          Let's not compare false accusations with non-reporting as though the two happen at similar rates. False accusations do indeed happen at a small percentage, about the same as for other crimes. Non-reporting of rapes occurs at a far higher level because societal punishment of rape, the consequences of reporting, can be so high, and justice so unlikely. Not because there aren't people out there trying to do justice, but because our society (and by extension, the jury) still tends to put the survivor on trial instead of the perpetrator.

          One other note: If a woman (or man, or child) presses charges, and then decides not to go through with it--for reasons any idiot could understand--it is legally recorded as an unsubstantiated accusation. That's in a good scenario. Some people include these stats along with proven false accusations in order to inflate the percentage.

          I'm against the falsely accused being victimized. But that is a really separate issue than the comments this guy (and maybe his dad) made. What we have here is people who are determined to do whatever they want and blame it on the girl/woman.

          I'm amazed by people's courage and kindness in the face of everything and life.

          by LaraJones on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:02:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agree and disagree (0+ / 0-)

            ambiguity is not an excuse by rapists who want to avoid responsibility.  the statement itself presumes what needs to be proved.  The statement presumes one is guilty of rape and that claiming "ambiguity" is merely some excuse.  i can tell you that many times, situations are not that clear cut.  As a criminal defense attorney, I encounter ambiguity all the time.  In the sexual assault/rape situation, I have encountered the scenario where two drunk people have sex and two weeks later the man is accused of rape.

            Even in the following paragraph, you connote justice with conviction, as if justice can only be achieved if the defendant in a rape case is convicted.  Sit at my desk for a week and you will have a different opinion.

            I don't know what "proven false" even means.  We do not have a metric to measure that.  The criminal justice system is not able to declare innocence.  It can only declare guilt or non-guilt.  Even in the cases where I am confident that the complaining witness was simply making the allegations up (and I cite three such cases above), the jury did not declare my clients innocent, merely "not guilty."

            My comment was less directed to what the state legislator had to say and more targeted toward the seeming expression that questioning allegations of rape means that one is in the "bitches be lying" camp.

            "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - J.S. Mill

            by dmsarad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:38:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, I didn't connote justice with conviction (0+ / 0-)

              anywhere in my comment. You'll see I was referring specifically to rapes that aren't reported, as in, rapes that did happen. Justice is only served if someone who committed a rape is convicted and suffers the consequences of his/her actions.

              By "proven false" I meant cases in which a false accusation was made and the person accused was cleared. That was clear even without the exact legal term.

              The main point doesn't change: I'm against the falsely accused being victimized. But that is a separate issue than the comments this guy (and maybe his dad) made. What we have here is people who are determined to do whatever they want and blame it on the girl/woman.

              Being against these men's sexism, blaming, and contempt for women is not a comment on false accusations at all. False accusations are a different discussion that's inevitably brought into diaries like this one. While it is an important issue, it is a different discussion. Since it's important, perhaps you or others who bring it into other discussions (happens a lot) would write a diary focused on it. This diary is about these men's sexist comments.

              I'm amazed by people's courage and kindness in the face of everything and life.

              by LaraJones on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 04:14:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I see both sides here (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dmsarad, brooklyn137, George Hier

      On one hand, victims of rape have just gone through a soul shattering experience and should not be victimized a second time by authorities convinced that the victim is lying, imagining it, or deserving of it.  It is one of the most intensely destructive violations that a person can suffer and making light of it isn't just insensitive, it's inhuman.

      On the other hand, the sarcasm I've seen here on DKos about "fantastic prizes" that victims can claim, suggesting that no person ever falsely accuses another of raping them do not acknowledge reality.  Equally as bad, they ignore one of the core principles of our country... innocent until proven guilty. Pretending that no person could have motivation for a false claim of rape (not wanting to admit to parents/family figures that the sex was consensual, wanting to punish their sex partner over some other issue, etc...) is as ignorant as thinking that women have magic lady parts that can stop a pregnancy due to rape.

      And before you HR me or get out the flamethrower... I was raped by another man 23 years ago. It was months before I could stand having another man touch me (I am gay). It was years before I could handle having another man hug me without me flinching.  To this day I occasionally have what I can only describe as a flashback even with my partner of almost 17 years.  Rape isn't just a violation of the flesh, it's a violation of the mind and spirit.

      But the bottom line is that trivializing rape with "some girls rape easy" is (to me at least) just as offensive as the lines about "fantastic prizes" that get tossed around every time someone suggests (however badly) that not every claim of rape is truthful.  Sadly, because the GOP seems to lack all empathy for victims of this horrible crime the underlying idea that we must evaluate each claim of rape as honestly and fairly as possible to stay true to our principle of innocent until proven guilty is tarnished by their stupidity.

      •  I can't see anyone HRing you (0+ / 0-)

        or getting out a flame thrower.  You very eloquently sum up what I am trying to say when you wrote

        But the bottom line is that trivializing rape with "some girls rape easy" is (to me at least) just as offensive as the lines about "fantastic prizes" that get tossed around every time someone suggests (however badly) that not every claim of rape is truthful.

        "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - J.S. Mill

        by dmsarad on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:44:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I know of a scenario that would fit your complaint (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      madhaus, LaraJones

      I have lived through some things, so I don't classify rape the way some do.

      However what pisses people off in this context is that the lying, money grubbing woman hating fucktwits in above story will take the one out of a hundred or thousand cases and set that us as THE example, to 1. ignore rape allegations, 2. minimize and marginalize rape survivors, and 3. justify their other screwed up positions regarding women's rights.

      When dealing with extremists, it's almost impossible it seems, to be reasonable about anything. The Extremists always go for the extreme, making the reasonable seem faded and inconsequential or even ridiculous. And absolutely resent them for it, more each day.

      That make the world suck in a thousand new ways every second they steal our air.

  •  Looks like Ryan is learning a few lessons (0+ / 0-)

    from Mittens.  In time, he'll be a Darth in no time. ;)

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin

    by politicalceci on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 11:21:52 AM PDT

  •  Kreitlow vs. Duffy (WI-07) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    madhaus, fearlessfred14

    Rep. Sean Duffy (WI-07) was at the same Rivard event with Paul Ryan in August.

    Sean Duffy has released a statement  "I condemn Rep. Rivard's absurd and inappropriate comments", but has not rescinded his support for Rivard.

    A moment ago I made another ActBlue donation to Pat Kreitlow who is neck-and-neck in the fight against Duffy.  This is a freshman R seat that we can take back.

    We need Sean Duffy out of Congress.  Those folks in the Northland need Pat Kreitlow.

    http://kreitlowforcongress.com/

  •  Wow. So all rapes are "Buyer's Remorse" (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    madhaus

    Got it.

    And pregnancy is the punishment for sex.

    Check.

    What a flaming asshole!

  •  Those girls (0+ / 0-)

    they're all rapey and stuff. I hear them screaming at me, but I don't listen. Yak yak yak.

    E Pluribus Unum does NOT mean "every man for himself"

    by Daddy Love on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:40:52 PM PDT

  •  Ryan's rebuff has less to do with... (0+ / 0-)

    ...being the VP wannabe and a whole lot more to do with Rivard's comments now being circulated beyond his district.  If they'd kept it on the Q.T. "Bucky" wouldn't have ever blinked.

    This country needs a misgynectomy, stat.

    I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

    by mojo11 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 12:42:48 PM PDT

  •  never felt this before but ... (0+ / 0-)

    ... in hindu mythology there is a saying that curses are powerful. which means that you don't wish ill of anyone, even of those you disagree with, unless they are truly evil.

    i have never wished this before of anyone, not even of george bush - but i hope that paul ryan eventually dies of a terminal, incurable disease that makes him suffer agonising pain for at least a decade, in spite of all the treatment that he can buy. even that will not compensate for the pain that his odious presence in the world causes to ordinary people.

    i know that i have accumulated a lot of good karma in this world and have never wished this on anyone else. so i know, in my heart, that ryan will suffer untold agonies in his life to come.

    this is a curse, and i know that hundreds of thousands of others join me in solidarity. this man is worse than voldemort and darth vader combined, and almost as bad as dick cheney. such people will suffer when their time comes, and suffer in a manner than tax cuts will not alleviate.

    a simple hindi word to describe paul ryan, for those who will understand it:

    maderchod.

  •  the October surprise? (0+ / 0-)

    Could it be that soon will come the revelation of a previously unknown Lyin'Ryan, Jr.?

  •  Tipped, recced and republished to (0+ / 0-)

    Badger State Progressive.

    In my 30 year career in corrections, I encountered a lot of rapists but never came across one who admitted to any responsibility for their crimes. Mr. Rivard apparently agrees with those Überassholes.

    I started with nothing and still have most of it left. - Seasick Steve

    by ruleoflaw on Thu Oct 11, 2012 at 05:18:51 PM PDT

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