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I was a Zionist for a long time when I was younger, even though I was a Christian. I grew up with the narrative of WWII and the Holocaust. I was always attracted to Judaism and had a lot of Jewish friends, some the children of Holocaust survivors or of people who fled the Nazis before the war. In high school one of my close friends was an Israeli girl who is now a respected archaeologist at one of the universities there. In college I was for a long time a Hebrew studies/linguistics major, one of a handful of Christians in the department. I very seriously considered converting to Judaism at several points in my life and reluctantly gave that up when I realized that as a "shikse" I would never be fully accepted. And I always, always wanted to go to Israel, particularly as I got to know more and more Israeli people.....but I never did. Still, I admired the country and rejoiced in the victory of the Six-Day War and to some extent that of 1973.

I began to change my mind during the Lebanese conflict, and particularly when I started seeing pictures and videos of the Sabra and Shatila camps. When I was around  9 years old, I was rummaging around in our attic one day and came across a copy of "U.S.Camera" from 1945 or 1946, I forget which. Thinking about it now, I can see that my dad had hidden it away from us kids, presumablyy to protect us from seeing the horrors of WWII. In that book there were pictures of the concentration camps, taken by photographers from the American forces which had liberated those camps. I was mesmerized by those pictures of the living skeletons and particularly by one photograph of bodies stacked like wood at Buchenwald. I was both horrified and fascinated.I knew better than to ask my parents, but I was an inveterate reader and knew my way around the public library, and even though I wasn't allowed to borrow from the adult section yet, there was nothing to prevent me from reading, and I spent one whole summer learning about the Holocaust, trying to understand it from my very young viewpoint and in the light of what I'd been taught by my parents and my church about how you treat others. I never could understand it then, and I admit that I still can't. So beginning with Sabra and Shatila and continuing through the sagas of the West Bank and Gaza, my thinking about Israel began to change. My ex-husband said once, after watching a news segment on the camps, "Israel has lost its soul." In recent years I have begun to agree.

I've never agreed with the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians. I can understand some of the enmity that stems from their War of Independence, but the continual treatment of the Palestinians as second-class citizens (and that's on a good day!) and as "the enemy" seems much on a par with the way Jews were treated in the years leading up to WWII. If your land, that's been in your family for generations, is taken. and your family members are killed, why wouldn't you want to respond in kind? If your people are herded into ghettos and camps, why wouldn't you want to fight it? Naturally there will be those who turn to a more radical way of thinking and of action; there always are. Hatred and maltreatment on one side will invariably lead to the same on the other, and eventually to action. There are many parallels between the actions of ghetto Jews in WWII and Palestinians today, up to and including kidnappings, killings, and bombings. In the days of the Holocaust, these actions were considered "heroic"; now they are merely "terroristic", thanks to the Israeli publicity machine.

I can't condone the actions of either side. Most of my Israeli friends (left-leaners all) and many of my Jewish friends are in the same place I am, horrified at the actions of the Israeli government and increasingly sympathetic to the Palestinian people. In recent discussions we've talked about the similarities to the Jewish uprisings during the Holocaust. We are all torn between love and respect for the country of Israel and hatred for the actions of the current government. The op-ed by Gilad Sharon (son of Ariel) in which he calls for "flattening of entire neighborhoods in Gaza" and the comments of Deputy Israeli PM Eli Yishai that "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water" are simply the last straw for many of us.

It seems Israel may not have learned from the Holocaust after all, if they think it is right to do to others in their land precisely what was done to them in Europe. It seems that "never again" means "not unless we do it." I am sad for the country and for my many Israeli friends.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I'm not going to HR you. (8+ / 0-)

    But just keep in mind that parroting anti-Israel talking points is pretty borderline to me.  The comparison of the Jews to Nazis is offensive and I almost hit the button immediately.

    I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt since it's your first diary.

    We still love America, despite what the Right wing militarists do in our name.  I still support Israel despite what the Right Wing in the country does in their name.  

    I don't blame Christians. I blame Stupid. Which sadly is a much more popular religion these days.

    by detroitmechworks on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 01:31:39 PM PST

  •  Quick piece of advice... (10+ / 0-)

    It seems you're new here, and therefore likely unaware that Nazi analogies in I/P diaries are really, really frowned upon. Best advice? Delete this diary before it garners much attention...

    Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

    by angry marmot on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 01:38:37 PM PST

  •  exactly, how I see it (5+ / 0-)

    time to cut the crap... or maybe we should give all the aid to Palestine.

    A danger foreseen is half avoided.

    by ncheyenne on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 01:45:26 PM PST

  •  The Holocaust is not an entirely taboo subject (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Scientician, jj24

    in Israel, though this book was quite controversial when it came out both in Hebrew and English.  Burg is an insightful and careful observer of Israeli society, and his book is worth reading.

    Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free
    ¡Boycott Arizona!

    by litho on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 01:48:11 PM PST

  •  Ditto on the Nazi analogies (8+ / 0-)

    It is so offensive to some community members, it shuts down reasoned discourse.

    I still support Israel, that is, I support a free, independent and democratic state of Israel organized around Jewish cultural principles and values.  Which, unsurprisingly, are largely rooted in North African and Southwest Asian cultural pathways.  

    I do not support Anti Democratic, oppressive, and territorial expansion at the expense of other peoples, and believe it is harmful to the the vision and viability of a independent, democratic state.  

  •  I can "hear" the anguish in your diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jj24

    You have probably opened a big can of worms at DKos, so be prepared!

    On another post, someone linked to a report stating that Israel is prepping for a possible attack on Iran -- ie. weaking Gaza. It's all so sad and unnecessary.

    The civil rights, gay rights and women's movements, designed to allow others to reach for power previously grasped only by white men, have made a real difference, and the outlines of 21st century America have emerged. -- Paul West of LA Times

    by LiberalLady on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:02:04 PM PST

  •  Would comparing Palestinians' fate (10+ / 0-)

    to Native Americans' be more acceptable here?

    •  Um, hopefully not. (0+ / 0-)

      Countless peoples and cultures were exterminated in America, completely wiped out, gone forever.

      It was probably the greatest cultural genocide in the history of mankind.

      Meanwhile, there are more Palestinians living today than the sum of all Native Americans in the entire U.S.

      Hence, that would be an extremely flawed comparison.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:07:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I asked whether (0+ / 0-)

        it would be permitted, unlike 1933-45 mention, as my opinion, with which you obviously disagree. For the record, I see a strong parallel in terms of taking the land and essentially herding P's onto reservations.

        •  Maybe you should brush up on American history? (0+ / 0-)

          Or you could ask the Wampanoag if they think the situation is similar.  Oh wait, there are no Wampanoag remaining whom you could ask.  They're all dead... exterminated.

          Or you could ask the Karankawa.  Oh wait, they're all dead, too.  Gone forever, never to return.

          And the list goes on and on...

          You could make the comparison, but it is in extremely bad taste and is highly inaccurate.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 06:40:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  Who were you before you were (3+ / 1-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, MBNYC, auron renouille
    Hidden by:
    stevej

    Jilly W?

    Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

    by dhonig on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:11:09 PM PST

  •  Sharon and Yishai aren't in charge (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1, whizdom

    Barak and Netanyahu are. They seem to be trying to avoid a full scale invasion, and the IDF has been trying to target actual terrorists. It even has kept the border open and has not cut off communications or energy. Why the US had cut off oil to Japan even before Pearl Harbor! Meanwhile, Hamas has been deliberately firing rockets at civilian populations -- for weeks. It is Hamas' treatment of Israeli Jews that should have you concerned.

  •  HR'd for the Israeli / Comparisons (7+ / 0-)

    PLUS as an added bonus HR'd for comparing Jewish Fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto with Hamas.

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:12:38 PM PST

    •  Why do you find (9+ / 0-)

      the Warsaw Ghetto analogy problematic?  

      •  What.... are you fucking joking? Seriously? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mets102, livosh1, Lawrence

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:14:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Answer the question, why don't you? nt (9+ / 0-)

          Aren't you glad that the clueless won't get a chance to run the country again, just yet? Yeah. Me too.

          by LeftOfYou on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:27:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No seriously are you fucking joking???? (5+ / 0-)

            Let's see though which fucking stupid comparison would you like addressed. The idiotic notion that somehow the Israelis are like the Nazi's and the Palestinians like the Jews of Warsaw? Gee, I don't know... Perhaps in the fact that the Israelis are not carting people out of Gaza and sending them Death Camps or proposing to eliminate the entire population of Gaza.

            Let's see Gaza is the most densely populated place on Earth or one of them. YET after a week of fighting there are 100 dead and 750 wounded. In the Warsaw Ghetto the Nazi's systematically killed EVERYONE. Should we go with your history lesson or would you like to simply actually learn who and what the Nazi's were.

            OR PERHAPS you mean this asinine statements:

            There are many parallels between the actions of ghetto Jews in WWII and Palestinians today, up to and including kidnappings, killings, and bombings. In the days of the Holocaust, these actions were considered "heroic"; now they are merely "terroristic", thanks to the Israeli publicity machine.
            Holy shit... Seriously?????

            Gee, I didn't know that the Jews of WWII were SHELLING GERMAN CITIES, perhaps I missed the part where the Jews of WWII had sworn to wipe out all Germans from the face of the Earth. Perhaps you can point me to a place which shows where the Jews of Germany had declared that all Germany really shouldn't exist.

            You want me to keep going, or have you had enough.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:01:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Warsaw Ghetto Commander disagrees with you (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jj24, LeftOfYou, splintersawry
              •  Nice try... But where does it say Warsaw = Gaza (0+ / 0-)

                Oh right... it doesn't.

                HOWEVER, even if did.. Doesn't mean he was right.

                So again... Anorish, please tell me how the Israelis wiped out the Palestinian population of Gaza, carted off people there and put them in Death Camps or Forced Labor which led to death camps. Please tell me where you that. Because that is what the Warsaw ghetto was all about.

                Oh yeah, and tell me about the brave Hamasniks and all their progressive ways that they support the things that Edelman (who was a leftist) supports. Please enlighten us to just how Hamas, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are really progressive organizations.

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 10:09:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  tough call (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DeadHead, jj24, LeftOfYou, splintersawry

                  I can believe The last commander of the Warsaw Ghetto when he compares the two, or I can believe you who doesn't
                  Care what he says, "after all he was a leftist" and claims that the comparison itself is out of bounds? The only context here is ongoing  dispossession and occupation, not Hamas or any other straw man.  So hyper sensitive to words, even when imagined, so oblivious to deeds, even in front of your eyes.  
                   

                  •  Way to skip the questions completely (0+ / 0-)

                    Again....

                    In your link: But where does it say Warsaw = Gaza?

                    and:

                    So again... Anorish, please tell me how the Israelis wiped out the Palestinian population of Gaza, carted off people there and put them in Death Camps or Forced Labor which led to death camps. Please tell me where you that. Because that is what the Warsaw ghetto was all about.

                    Oh yeah, and tell me about the brave Hamasniks and all their progressive ways that they support the things that Edelman (who was a leftist) supports. Please enlighten us to just how Hamas, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are really progressive organizations.

                    Anytime you want to address the conversation rather than just make silly statements that have no grounding in truth.... let me know... mmmkay?

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:38:23 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  You know volley.. (7+ / 0-)

          ..you would be better served taking a couple of minutes and sentences explaining why.   It shouldn't be hard to do as I've done it myself on a couple of occasions.   You could do a search and find why those comparisons are considered out of bounds by admin.

        •  Not Joking (0+ / 0-)

          Nothing funny about this.  Very interested to hear your thoughts.  

          •  See Above.. They are not my thoughts they are (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mets102, mahakali overdrive

            flat history. IF you don't know the difference between Gaza and Warsaw then you don't know history. Period. AND if you do know history and you still make that comparison then you are a liar or a stone racist/bigot.

            Only the Nazi's were the Nazi's... If Israel were anything like the Nazi's, Gaza wouldn't be there today and every Palestinian in both Gaza and the West Bank would be dead. Understand that.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:14:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  maybe you could use all caps. (4+ / 0-)

              from the history i know - and i know, really, a very general amount - there are comparisons to be made, sadly.

              no group "owns" oppression.. i'm sure cambodians, russians, rwandans, native americans, south africans would all argue any claim to unique and "ultimate depth" of pain from the nazi party.

              you want to argue that - because israel's just bombing gaza but not doing air raids, there's no comparison to warsaw?  haven't these situations, in both cases, involve the systematic and longterm dis-empowerment, even for the basics of human life?  aren't these both politically-created ghettos?  

              you shoot out accusations of racism for having other views than yours - seemingly.  you don't have the market on the truth; you have a bully pulpit from what i can see.  yell louder, scream harder, but that will a) not change facts; or b) change points of view.

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:31:43 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe you could actually use Caps.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102

                You feel like actually addressing my points or do you simply feel like saying "Well I don't really understand the issue so instead I am going to whine about you using caps"?

                As for this:

                you want to argue that - because israel's just bombing gaza but not doing air raids, there's no comparison to warsaw?
                Really??? Really - that is your comeback? Do you actually know anything of the history of the Nazi's? Seriously? Do you think the Israelis are simply just destroying things in an attempt to wipe the Palestinian people from the face of the earth.

                Do you really think that the Israelis are operating Death camps like Aushwitz, or Treblinka, or Sorbibor and carting people from Gaza to those camps?

                The Nazi's were genocidal lunatics and the Warsaw Ghetto was a mere "way station" to the death of the Jews in Warsaw. You think somehow that compares to Gaza? Really?

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:48:47 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  really?????? seriously??????? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Russgirl, SomeStones, splintersawry

                  just put me down as against whatever you're for.  maybe someday you can articulate your points without such disdain for others.

                  Romney in a landslide!

                  by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:20:07 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well ok then.... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102
                    just put me down as against whatever you're for.
                    Well I figured as much. I mean I oppose racism, prejudice, and bigotry of all kinds. Apparently you are in favor of all those things given your exact words. I am for truth, anti-propaganda and a reality based political philosophy. I can see from your comments that you are against all of that. So yeah, I can easily put you down as against those things. Thanks for confirming what I already knew.
                    maybe someday you can articulate your points without such disdain for others.
                    No.. bigots and ignorant fools deserve disdain. See, I don't respect those who harbor racist or bigoted thoughts. I see no reason to treat them with anything but disdain. Oh and that goes for the way I treat the racists on my side as well. I would just as soon not have them anywhere near my position and my commentary record proves it.

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:49:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

          •  I have a piece by (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            angry marmot, Brecht

            Mark LeVine you might be interested in reading, on why Gaza, Warsaw Ghetto analogies are not valid.

            Gaza is no Warsaw Ghetto

      •  Here is.. (6+ / 0-)

        ..Meteor Blades on WG analogies.   At the time he was Community Moderator.   As far as I know that rule still holds and people who make them are subject to being Hr'd and perhaps banned.

        link

        You're wrong.. (7+ / 0-)

        ..Meteor Blades has stated Warsaw Ghetto analogies are not allowed here quite clearly.  Let's get that straight from the get go, because some have either forgotten or have decided to ignore that rule. See below:

         

         What I am not saying is that I think...
            ...everybody who has made that comment (or anybody who has) is anti-semitic. It has been, imo, mostly an attempt to say to supporters of Israel's Gaza policy: Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is?

            And it is oppressive and terrible.

            The problem is that the Warsaw Ghetto became another of the gateways to extermination. So to make the comparison is to say Gaza is a step before the ovens. And that is beyond the pale.
            Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 03:48:20 AM EST
            http://www.dailykos.com/....

            Israeli policy in Gaza is disgraceful ... ...but this continued use of the Warsaw Ghetto metaphor is ill-disguised code for Israel=Nazis. Stop it.

            Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Thu Jul 09, 2009 at 12:38:09 AM EST

        •  wow. i'm an MB fan, but - (3+ / 0-)

          Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??  and not just a pretty damn reasonable question?

          furthermore, was nazi oppression so special and unique, that it can never be repeated or even referred to?  there are clear steps down the oppression/extermination road... and plenty of governments, sadly, have engaged in it.  watching what i see, israel has been, and is on that road with its actions toward palestinians.  fuck, if their own citizens are free to say this, how are americans somehow banned from even surmising it?  the propagandic curtain here is inexplicable.

          i don't give a shit what you call me for thinking this.  it is an opinion that - i found out - 27% of liberals think, and 16% of dems think.  a minority, but certainly not a rarity.

          Romney in a landslide!

          by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:27:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Huh? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mahakali overdrive, Brecht
            Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??  and not just a pretty damn reasonable question?
            Did you read what he wrote??

            Listen,  I'm not calling you anything.  You asked a question and I attempted to give you the answer without insults and "screaming".

            The fact is though is that foks who continue to make Israel/Nazi, Israel/Holocaust analogies are going to be Hr'ed and bring a torrent of angry comments upon themselves,  and at the same time disrupt reasonable discussion.

            If you do not like the current (afaik) policy on those analogies I guess you could try the "help desk".

            Cheers

            •  i know you're not calling me anything. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              RageKage

              i am just alarmed at what i read.  the "you" is anyone reading it.  

              i have been around long enough to know what to do if i don't like something here.  one way is to say so - no need to be condescending.  i really didn't mean anything toward you, however - just annoyed as hell at the fact of the inability for discourse.

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:25:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Discourse (4+ / 0-)

                Believe me, and I've been around here a long time.   Very little will bring down the quality of discourse at this site and in particular in Israel/Palestine threads than making Nazi analogies.   I mean can't you see that in this thread alone?   Check a few others.

                •  i see a couple bullies crapping all over people - (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Karl Rover, James Kroeger, RageKage

                  particularly volleyboy1.... and a couple others who are late to the "party" they like to create for sport.  why aren't they extracted from the conversation, when they are clearly the cause of the flame?  it's not the words - it's the goal of these people to shut down the conversation.

                  other than that, not much - people who are somewhat calm.  i suppose i'm more vociferous than i should be lol.  i feel a little embarrassed for not understanding what to say, and having broken both rules.  and feeling really defensive about being thought of as anti-semitic for caring about palestinians here, when that's simply not the case.

                  Romney in a landslide!

                  by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:55:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  He's not bullying you (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1, auron renouille

                    He has every right to be upset.

                    And I had two relatives in concentration camps, one of whom survived the experience. I went on to study literatures of various oppressed people probably partially due to this, and have fought for social justice throughout my life (including for Palestinians). You need to understand how hurtful this history is. And one of those relatives of mine is still alive and still talks about this.

                    They baked people in ovens and turned their skin into lampshades, and they incinerated people in ovens until their charred bodies turned to ash so that no taint of their ethnic remains would ever dare pollute the Aryan bloodline again; they tried to ontologically exterminate Jews down to the atomic level. If they could have split the atoms of our cinder to reduce us yet one level further, they would have.

                    War is war. Genocide is genocide. Ethnic cleansing is as well.

                    That is something more systematic and paranoid then all of it. It is the wet dream of a serial killer placed into power -- quite literally. It's the fantasy of Anders Breivik with national backing. It is beyond all conception.

                    •  you're late to the party. (0+ / 0-)

                      my boyfriend's grandmother survived a camp.  doesn't give him carte blanche to be a dick.  gratefully, he doesn't think so either.  nor does he think this has anything at all to do with current israeli foreign policy, or support their far-right agenda.

                      war is happening.  oppression is happening.  israel is in the wrong, and they are carrying their own people into harms' way.  i hope we do not support them, this time.  and iran?  holy shit.

                      i've been inundated with the horrors of the holocaust since i was old enough to talk.  in fact, everyone in this country has.  it is part/parcel of growing up american.  then i woke up to the undeniable fact - that the horrors of the holocaust bear no resemblance, and give no carte blanche to the militaristic, neo-conservative, far-right regime in israel that runs itself into war with every single neighbor - including the systematic and brutal oppression of palestinians.  what is peres' wet dream?  netanyahu?  or cheney and the neocons here that love them?

                      Romney in a landslide!

                      by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:38:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  and he isn't bullying? laughable. (0+ / 0-)

                      Romney in a landslide!

                      by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:44:43 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Please read more carefully & think more thoroughly (3+ / 0-)

            Yes, I'm being condescending, I know. But you've earned it in this diary.

            Here's your best point:

            wow. i'm an MB fan, but Saying "Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is" to someone who supports Israel's Gaza policy is deemed anti-semitic??
            But MB actually said
            mostly an attempt to say to supporters of Israel's Gaza policy: Don't you see how hideously oppressive what you are condoning is?

            And once you use the Nazis = Israel simile, it always becomes a failed attempt. To use an analogy, as soon as you tell a born again Christian that he kind of reminds you of Satan, he will be too upset to listen to anything else you say.

            furthermore, was nazi oppression so special and unique, that it can never be repeated or even referred to?
            To people who've lost parents, grandparents, whole branches of their families in the Holocaust, yes, if what you're after is meaningful debate. If what you really want is to make them furious, well sure, then the Nazis = Israel simile can be pretty effective.

            "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

            by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:12:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My grandmother and great-grandmother (4+ / 0-)

              My grandmother lived. FWIW.

              And the commenter told me I should brush it off and walk away...

              This is my lived reality. The stories of my grandmother's internment as a young girl, unsure how old, maybe ten, so not that young either but still innocent, being taken in Austria where she traveled with her mother, who was a musician on tour -- because they lived in the U.S., they felt safe. But they may not have been documented. It's unclear. I've gone through the files and seen various things said. And my grandmother, and her mother, Americans, were told Europe was tense for Jews and to leave. They boarded a train in Austria to take a boat back, I believe. Something fancy, if I recall. And jackbooted Nazis took them and tattooed them and intered them until my great-grandmother was too sick to recover, with my grandmother, a little girl, in a cage, watching her die, watching each day the men and women and children given soap... and never return. She talks in halts and lapses when she speaks of it, and she has a bomb shelter built still under her suburban U.S. home. She struggled with PTSD before they knew what it was, and when a plane would fly overhead, my dad said they would find her weeping and crouched under the sink or in the shelter outright. She was a very successful woman despite her situation (or perhaps due to it) with a Ph.D. who was the head of the school district. But she always suffered. When I visited her, my mom showed me how her spice cabinet was still filled with medication, a lazy susan of downers and then uppers and anti-depressants to cope with such a life. Such a fractured and horrible life.

              •  as to the "commenter", what are you talking about? (0+ / 0-)

                i never said anything of the sort.

                letting others talk - if that's what you're referring to - does not equate to brushing off or walking away from your family's story.  i suspect you are not sincere.

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:44:42 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  here's the problem: people like me don't (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              splintersawry

              have these discussions on a daily basis.  we're not disinformationists.  we're not propagandists.  we're just - people with thoughts and questions.  we don't gravitate to every I/P diary with the goal of shutting down conversation.

              to make nazi germany a sacrosanct, hallowed horror is the most perverted aspect of the current propaganda onslaught.  there have been literally millions of people, killed systematically by their own regimes, that would shout out to you if they could; and millions of their descendants to prove the pristinely unique horror of jewish suffering an incredibly insulting offense.

              people should not be bullied from voicing disapproval with the israeli government's killing and systematic oppression of other peoples, by way of labeling as anti-semitic by propagandists.  THAT has to be the first brick to topple, in my opinion, for meaningful debate.

              furious?  i'm furious that - even as palestinians are losing their homes, families and even lives, the main concern here is a couple bully's personal feelings, which determine whether or not we can talk about it.

              do you realize someone on this thread told me, that if/when israel depletes 70% of palestinians - THEN they would admit it's similar.  are you kidding me??  not to mention, the accusations of me personally ... no.  these landmines are designed to keep the discussion from taking place.  this needs to change.

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 07:38:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can see you're not shutting down conversation; (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jj24

                I just think you're caught up in a strong emotional reaction, and some of your thinking and arguing is very fuzzy.

                Still, I respect that you're attempting to debate reasonably. I know it can be very disconcerting when you feel that several posters are attacking you at once.

                I don't have time now to address all the points in your comment. I'll try to stop in again later.

                "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                by Brecht on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:37:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  wow - thanks. (0+ / 0-)

                  i couldn't bear to read your response earlier, b/c it was getting so bad.  i appreciate your taking the time to listen!!  thank you.  you are correct, i am trying to debate reasonably, without the attacks.

                  calling my arguments "emotional" and "fuzzy" - somewhat disparaging, but what the hell.  nothing compared to others lol.  

                  Romney in a landslide!

                  by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:29:05 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  This is an ignorant question. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        3/4's of the inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto died after being sent to extermination camps.

        It was one of the largest mass murders in the history of mankind....

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:10:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Somehow my life feels more complete now (7+ / 0-)

    Because I know why "Jilly W" no longer "wholeheartedly" supports Israel. For so long I felt something missing, a burning curiosity as to WHY Jilly W was such an Israel-booster - what led her there? Was it a treacherous path? I now feel at peace. Thank you Jilly W - thank you.

    "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

    by Shane Hensinger on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:29:14 PM PST

  •  i guess i'm having an anti-censorship day... (11+ / 0-)

    and looking at this diary, it's really pretty sad that the bulk of the comments are not about the topic, but on the rules of the fucking site.

    the truth is the truth, even when a liar says it... and a lie is a lie, even when an honest person says it.

    so discuss the diary, quit the fucking HR'ing, man/woman-up.

    i've long seen the comparison between nazis' treatment of jews, and israelis' treatment of palestinians.  what are the similarities?  what are the differences?  or are germans just evil "strain" of human, whose oppression and annhilation could never be repeated by any group of humans, past, present or future?  seems unlikely, and a set up for more of the same if you can't even discuss it.   this shouldn't be next to heresy in this so-called bastion of freedom we call the US.  

    now - spare me the "kos owns this site!"  yeah, i know, this isn't the public square.  it just tries to be on a good day; and witchhunts on a bad one.

    Romney in a landslide!

    by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:29:53 PM PST

    •  It's the cut-and-paste stereotypes that (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brecht, volleyboy1, bevenro, td, Mets102

      earned my HR, nothing to do with site rules.

      Though it maybe should be recalled just *why* those site rules were developed...

    •  come on JJ--you know better than this. (0+ / 0-)

      It's not all that unlike tossing out a completely obnoxious talking point then blaming people for not wanting to discuss it civilly.

      What if I put up a diary saying 'The holocaust never happened' and laid out some ridiculous reasons for it, then used a condescendingly civil tone when people started going up-in-arms about it.

      It's also a bit like those  people who call all of our police officers 'fascists' then criticize people for yelling at them.  (this happens fairly often here)

      Gaza is awful, jj, but it ain't Treblinka.  It ain't Lodz.  Netanyahu isn't Pol Pot, or Edi Amin.  It's not Rwanda either--neither are the Palestinians the Armenians.  Gaza is Gaza, and Israel is Israel, and using political talking points solely to rile people up is completely counter productive.

      •  the fact you equate a divergent opinion on (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gemut, bluedust, FloraLine, splintersawry

        israel's current actions to claiming the holocaust never happened, shows the post-intellectual bias on this subject.  it's propaganda on steroids.

        sure - it ain't treblinka for you.  and the only country that can never, ever, be equated with any other country in the entire universe - past, present, or future - is the untouchable, hallowed, 100% correct israel.

        the problem with your minimizing gaza's suffering, is that nearly every pro-israel poster on this subject doesn't even seem to equate a palestinian life with an israeli life.  the subhuman quality to the arguments toward these people is so disturbing.  

        as a liberal, i support peace, life, equality, equality of opportunity for my brothers and sisters worldwide.  not just as the political trends dictate.  i have never seen anything but a dominant militarized nation invading, killing and destroying property, with a couple of crude rockets in response (to say nothing of the non-battle conditions israel has placed on gaza).  the death toll right now is 100+ palestinians; 3 israelis.  without the constant propagandic onslaught and the insistence on keeping the message pure, the mere circumstances tell the story.  and i choose to believe my eyes.

        Romney in a landslide!

        by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:39:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not minimizing anything. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dogs are fuzzy

          I haven't been to Gaza--but I have been to the West Bank and seeing the disparity between life there (as in Palestinian sections of E. Jerusalem) and the rest of Israel is what made me see the error of my own judgment wrt Israel.

          I use the holocaust denial example as an overstated extreme to demonstrate a point--not to equate.  You of course know that.

          And--objectively--it's not Treblinka.  The purpose of the miltary onslaught is not to kill for fun, but to eliminate a perceived security threat: ie. rocket fire.  You can argue that the threat is overstated and the results disastrous--but they are still not systematic death camps that exist for the sole purpose of death.  They're simply not, and to pretend that they are is nonsense.  I value no one life over another life.

          •  no, i don't know that you weren't equating, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            splintersawry

            or else i wouldn't have said so.

            as to israel's justification:  my eyes see a different reality.  the US justified its unjustifiable actions with iraq in the same way you just did with israel... "perceived security threat."  lol.  yeah, i know all about unjustifiable killing from watching my own country do it.  

            peres is on CNN now, claiming that the palestinians are "Producers of death."  3 Israelis dead; 100+ palestinians, dead.  or 40 yrs now, i've been watching israel do this shit, and bitching that "they can stop this at any time, but they won't stop."

            i think i can figure this out on my own.

            and it somehow makes you feel good to assert that israel is minus the death camp aspect of this oppression?  or that because the degree isn't as severe, that it's not oppression?  what exactly is your argument?  far more important, what is israel's goals here?

            oh, good god, peres is now claiming iran is "a world problem; a center of world terror."  israel is like a spoiled, unruly child with the US as the crazy parent who can't say "no."  

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:14:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Well excuse me (17+ / 0-)

    for offending you with "Nazi analogy".....would South African be more acceptable? Apartheid is apartheid by any name. I see some parallels between responses of the Jews in WWII to their treatment by the Germans and responses of the Palestinians to their treatment by the Israeli government, but apparently it's not acceptable to state that. Well, so be it.  This is a position I have come to over the course of many long and sometimes agonizing years. I realize this is not a popular or conventional viewpoint. I thought this was a community that accepted some minority viewpoints, however I seem to have been mistaken. But I won't delete my diary just because it doesn't toe the party line.

    •  it doesn't offend me but it will offend - (4+ / 0-)

      and they'll be extremely superior about it, along with a fair amount of bullying and baiting, accusations, etc., etc.  good luck. :)

      i'm taking your diary at face value.  i think there's a worldview a lot like yours; and then the american view, which is, to say the least, complicated and rife with its own propagandists to jump in and attack whenever that view isn't spewed forth.

      i don't know if you're a propagandist either - you very well may be.  but either way, diaries of this topic are always kind of a shitshow.  in the end, i'll always be counted as someone who wants to hear other, minority, and/or authentic views.  thanks for your diary.

      Romney in a landslide!

      by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 02:44:32 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not (11+ / 0-)

        a propagandist. I'm simply a 60-something lady with an apparently unpopular (here) view on this subject. I already knew it was not popular in the US generally. I probably have a few more unpopular views, too. I was taught by my parents to think for myself and to question authority if I thought it was wrong. I still do. That's all.

        •  Read through some of the other I/P diaries (10+ / 0-)

          Not unpopular, just the choice of expression does not help your argument.

          Some of this is also about depth of knowledge on the subject - one can make the argument that Israel is doing the wrong thing both in general (occupation and oppression) and in this specific case (civilian casualties, disproportionate response) without bringing up the specific examples of concentration camps and apartheid. Neither of those metaphors fits well enough for them to apply and when you use them I feel you distract from instead of add to your point.

          BTW, I have some disagreements with your point, but I am a big fan of vigorous discussion and debate especially on hot issues such as I/P. I have overall been impressed with the quality of the discourse on DKos especially given how deeply emotional this issue is for so many (including myself).

          If you believe that ALL criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're an idiot.
          If you believe that NONE of the criticism of Israel is antisemitic, you're a fool.
          If you call EVERYONE who criticizes Israel antisemitic, you're just an a$$hole

          by A Gutin Daf on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:03:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I sympathize... (6+ / 0-)

          Every time I dare to participate in this kind of conversation, I feel as though I must explain that I do not hate Jewish people and that I only want what is best for the Jews living in Israel, which is a long-term peace settlement.

          Unfortunately, I believe that the Israeli people have been manipulated by poor leadership into some very bad choices re: the Palestinians.  It is my hope that they will one day one day achieve the peace they desire.

        •  Well, Here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dogs are fuzzy

          you have an unfriendly counter POV on the matter.  The site is about electing more better , and sometimes democrats.  Not about advancing Human Rights, not about social Justice, not about rational foreign policy choices, it is about electoral politics.  
          I hope you visit here often, but don't expect that this site is about justice and rational foreign policy.  

    •  There are many (0+ / 0-)

      analogies that would do as well, sadly.  

      •  I would recommend deletion (0+ / 0-)

        and revision. The sentiment is something I am hearing is common and meaningful, but the examples cross the line

      •  maybe she coulda compared it to a marble game. (0+ / 0-)

        Romney in a landslide!

        by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:02:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not a game of children (0+ / 0-)

          This one is deadly

          •  yeah, so don't make the no-brainer comparison? (0+ / 0-)

            ridiculous arguments ask for ridiculous responses.  i know you're pretty measured here - but i guess i'm just having a hard time with the censorship.

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:55:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  why take the one of the most extreme and (3+ / 0-)

              emotionally charged historical events, the most painful to one of the parties in question, just to garner a reponse?  For the irony?  How much of an academic 'comparison' are you going to get in a  paragraph or two anyway?

              All this does is derail any (unlikely) discourse their might have been in the first place.

              •  the propaganda elicits the emotional charge. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bluedust

                stop the propaganda, and the picture becomes a lot clearer.

                i don't know the I/P game, frankly - i'm just a liberal out here with an opinion, based on what i know, read, see, discuss.  some "land mines" i know - some i don't - and some i don't understand why they exist.  the meta is over the top.  why not assume there's a difference of opinion and leave it at that?

                i think the connections between present-day israel and the fate the jews suffered in WWII is the no-brainer, obvious one.  it's the first question, from someone who doesn't know anything about it.  it's not supposed to be offensive - it's just people, looking from the outside in, and saying, "what the fuck?  how can this be?"  and having to readjust the cognitive dissonance with reality.

                at least, that was my experience.  it became this rude awakening from some anne frank romanticism i grew up with.  i'm sure the pro-israel people here would be delighted if i equated the beloved anne frank with the modern-day israeli government's actions.  but somehow, i believe she would denounce it with all her heart and soul.

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:50:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  because while the topic is next to impossible to (4+ / 0-)

                  discuss--it becomes even MORE difficult with over-the-top rhetorical comparisons.

                  Yes, the 'meta' is over the top. I don't dispute that.

                  •  i do also acknowledge that TP community (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    bluedust

                    on both sides of this issue are well represented here.  they know each others' points like a salesman, armed with the usual objections.

                    so that when someone who isn't them comes along, and strikes on a talking point, they unwittingly make themselves a target of the other side.  a lot is inferred, with a "yes you do know" kind of accusation... lol.  i am really hoping, however, that the support for palestinians increases and we get something approaching an honest discussion about this before it gets any worse.

                    Romney in a landslide!

                    by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:21:39 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Except that you don't believe in honest (0+ / 0-)

                      discussion. You just want to make racist statements and spout nonsense.

                      There are plenty of Pro-P people here that while I disagree with them, I would not say they are racist or anti-Semitic. You just want a forum to discuss your right wing talking points. There's a difference.

                      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                      by volleyboy1 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:13:56 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Have you seen that she left and (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        replayed a lot of this with a black poster here right after this, and it inspired another black poster to write a diary, a whole diary, about how hurtful it was?

                        Yep.

                        •  Not surprised... Standard Paulist/Racist fare. (0+ / 0-)

                          AND... it seems to be accepted here by the Admins. I mean Russgirl reprinted some stuff straight off Stormfront, got multiple complaints and not only is she not banned (as she should be) BUT is still a T.U. - It's ridiculous and eventually I think that will hurt the site as I somehow don't think that Markos wants his blog to be a place where racists and other "knuckle draggers" feel comfortable to be around.

                          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                          by volleyboy1 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 04:06:21 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you for coming back to defend your diary. (11+ / 0-)

      It is always a good idea to publish diaries when you have some time to stick around and engage/shepherd the conversation in your diary. This is especially true when you write on hot topics that arouse strong feelings on both sides.

      You have stepped into a hornet's nest, because there have been hundreds of arguments about this exact metaphor: comparing Israelis to Nazis in debates about Israel and Palestine.

      I'll link to and repeat parts of three comments I made yesterday on this issue:

      It was decided long ago that in I/P diaries it is simply cruel and unnecessary to compare Israelis to Nazis; there are always better and less hurtful ways to make your points.

      You may have intended to share in debate, but all you have made, here in this thread, is a mess.

      There is no truth so narrow that it requires us to draw a narrow, false and enormously hurtful equivalency between Israelis and Nazis. Anyone who does that is deliberately setting off the emotional equivalent of a scream.

      If there is a point to be made, it can be made far more effectively for the purposes of constructive debate by using some of the other hundreds of thousands of words in our shared language.

      My argument is clearly demonstrated by this very thread. Look at how many dozens of comments have gone into this angry distraction, taking us away from the far more serious subject of this fine diary...

      Read my sig line: I am an ardent advocate of free speech.

      I have no problem with anyone quoting that one specific example of idiocy: it was made, we shouldn't deny it.

      But I have seen plenty of comparisons of Israelis to Nazis made in I/P diaries, and every single one added more heat than light to the debate. So we all just agreed to stop doing it.

      Yes, apartheid would be a better analogy. You would still raise some people's hackles, but there is no outright prohibition of that metaphor in Israel/Palestine debates on Daily Kos.

      It would be a good idea for you to spend more time in I/P diaries, and get a sense of what's acceptable, before stirring things up even more, I think.

      "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

      by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:04:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  MondoFront ===> (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mets102, dhonig

    Perhaps you took a wrong turn somewhere?

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:23:33 PM PST

  •  As a German, I am a wholehearted (1+ / 2-)
    Recommended by:
    Farugia
    Hidden by:
    jj24, Karl Rover

    supporter of Israel.  I would not compare them to Nazis.  

    Despite my sympathies for a dispossessed group, the Palestinians are as a whole not very likeable, having embraced terror and a culture of death and hate.  My people were driven out of eastern Europe at the same time the Palestinians were being evicted, but you do not see German suicide bombers targeting Polish and Czech schoolchildren.  We have moved on.  The Palestinians should do the same.   Give up hate, and make the desert bloom.

    •  Will HR for racist statement. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gustynpip, poco, Karl Rover

      "The Palestinians are as a whole 'not very likeable', having embraced terror and a culture of death and hate" blah blah blah.  

      as a german myself, your comment is very offensive.

      Romney in a landslide!

      by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:40:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why are you being a hypocrite, jj24? (3+ / 0-)

        Upthread you say

        so discuss the diary, quit the fucking HR'ing, man/woman-up.
        Yet you HR this comment.

        If you're really "having an anti-censorship day", why not have it in all directions? Lead by example, engage Zygoat in some back and forth debate instead of rushing to HR.

        I think you're just angry at one side, and looking for someone to punch, so you're behaving inconsistently.

        I am not saying that you can't rationalize this particular HR. I'm saying, if you preach debate over HRing, then debate is always better than HRing, even when you're already het up against one side of the debate.

        "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

        by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:53:37 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  i'm against HRing an idea. I HR'd for racist BS. (0+ / 0-)

          why don't you know the difference?  i mean, do you really not get it or are you just being a jerk?

          Romney in a landslide!

          by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:56:52 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  oh - and i actually didn't HR it, just said (0+ / 0-)

            it was worthy of it.  and it is, i think i just changed my mind and will move forward with the HR.  Thanks!

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:57:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I do not understand your lying games, jj24: (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1, mahakali overdrive

              You did HR Zygoat's comment. I never would have written my comment otherwise.

              It looks like you retracted your HR, then changed your mind again and put it back, and also decided to accuse me falsely of something that makes no sense at all.

              You even left the evidence: at 3:56 you said I HR'd for racist BS.

              At 3:57 you said and i actually didn't HR it

              I am neither a liar nor a fool. You appear to be both.

              Goodbye.

              "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

              by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:10:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  i took HR off, then put it back on after your post (0+ / 0-)

                no games.  you just talked me into it.

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:16:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You talked yourself into it, then pointed at me. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive

                  You only took the HR off because I called you on your hypocrisy. Then you resented being pushed, put your HR back, and made up a lame rationalization.

                  But you've already lied about this - it's not like I expect you to be frank or take responsibility here.

                  Throughout this diary you seem to be caught up in the drama, responding emotionally, then making up rationalizations to justify your feelings. That's not evil. It's just misleading, and muddies up clear debate.

                  "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                  by Brecht on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:49:24 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  I really don't care if (0+ / 0-)

        you find it offensive.  Every German should be pro-Israeli for the next 1,000 years after what we did to them.

        •  that is some true winger shit. (6+ / 0-)

          pro-jewish is not pro-israeli - two way different stances.  the day i'm pro-oppression, i'll be both pro-israeli and whatever other regimes who shant be named who have engaged in the systematic, long-term, brutal oppression and minimization of their political rivals or people of their choice to deny rights to.

          Romney in a landslide!

          by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:08:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do you think the Palestinians (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Dogs are fuzzy

            would stop trying to kill Jews if  1) the Wall came down? 2) all travel and commerce restrictions were lifted?  3) Palestinians were free to travel everywhere in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel?

            I think they would kill as many Israelis as they could.  I wish it were otherwise.

            Are the Israelis completely not at fault?  No.  The expansion of West Bank settlements and hindrances to commerce and travel that are not necessary for security purposes no doubt make a bad situation worse.

          •  Foreign Policy site with their take on this issue. (0+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            Red Sox

            ...Step 2: State or imply that anyone who writes critically about the Israel lobby is an anti-semite or a self-hating Jew.

            This is of course an old stratagem designed to silence anyone who thinks about raising the subject. It's not as effective as it used to be, because it was been used so widely and so inappropriately in the past, but it's still a key part of the playbook. As Rothkopf writes in this most recent piece, the Israel lobby "is just a boogie-man cooked up to serve the nasty agenda of people all too eager to sacrifice the truth on the altar of their prejudices." There's really nothing to see here, folks, and if you think you do see something, you must be a bigot.

            ...Facts are stubborn things, and no amount of dust-kicking and hand-waving can prevent more and more people -- including Jews like Peter Beinart and M.J. Rosenberg and philo-semites like Andrew Sullivan and me -- from pointing them out.

            If AIPAC and its allies are in fact beginning to lose some of their clout, the recent emergence of a somewhat more open discourse on this question is at least partially responsible.  
            http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/...

            •  STFU Bigot.... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hester, lostboyjim, RedPencil, Red Sox

              No one says you can't be critical of Israel. But what you can't do is quote stuff straight off of Stormfront or davidduke.com like you did above.

              You make a comment like you did above and then talk about "facts"... Really, now?

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 06:21:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Not a "bigot" rude vollyboy...just trying to learn (0+ / 0-)

                like yourself...or not in your case.

                We do not know the whole truth and never will.  Having two sides of a conversation is a start.  Shutting down opposing sides is just that... shutting down progress toward real PEACE.

                From Veterans Today - full article at link, if you choose to read another opinion, or not.

                Gaza war, Israel’s military ruse to evade weakness
                Conclusion

                Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan was correct in his assessment that this is no longer “2008.” Israel’s actions in Gaza are radicalizing Egypt, destabilizing Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf States and will quicken the end of Jordan’s servile kleptocracy.

                What will be left is Israel, dependent on India, flanked between Pakistan and China, dependent on Britain, France and Germany, nations buried in debt crisis and instability and dependent on the United States, a nation increasingly aware that Israel’s “knife” has been in her back for decades.
                http://www.veteranstoday.com/...

                •  Bullshit.... You used a widely discredited (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CTMET

                  quote from Netanyahu and a list of Jewish or Mostly Jewish Americans and accused them of "dual loyalty" not too mention that you falsely stated that they were "dual citizens".

                  You fool no one. And "Veterans Today"... Seriously? That site is rife with anti-Semitic CT. Why not just link to davidduke.com and tell me that is "just another opinion"?

                  You are not fooling anyone Russgirl. Just FYI.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 04:42:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I was wondering where you and Mets102 were (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    volleyboy1

                    I haven't seen any diaries in the usual groups come through my stream. All I've got to listen to are the "bomb them to the stone ages" posts  get and stuff like this. :(

                    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

                    by CTMET on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 06:44:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah.. Sorry CTMET... Mets and I (we've talked (0+ / 0-)

                      about it) are disengaging from I/P here at the G.O.S.

                      See we are interested in Liberal / Progressive politics so on the domestic front Daily Kos seems to have a fair amount of interesting stuff. However, bigots seem to be ruling the roost in I.P. with the Admins. apparent blessing.

                      We will still be talking about I/P but from an informed Zionist / Reasonable progressive perspective over at our blog The Progressive Zionist. The thing is that there when we can moderate comments. SO we can simply eliminate the "white noise" that exists at the fringes (both Left and Right) of the spectrum and talk about issues.

                      I had a lot of diary ideas but the bigotry and the attempt to turn DKos in MondoFront just puts me off. The fact that the admins. support this is amazing. Why they don't just call Phil Weiss and Adam Horowitz and put them in charge of I.P. is astounding to me since they very much seem to want the irrelevant "drooler" element hanging out here.

                      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                      by volleyboy1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 07:47:41 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I can't say I blame you for disengaging. Its (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        volleyboy1

                        unfortunate for the site that they will lose that point of view. I'll have to check out Progressive Zionist.

                        The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy;the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness

                        by CTMET on Thu Nov 22, 2012 at 07:19:00 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well just on I/P (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          CTMET

                          I staying around to support Democrats (at least as long as the Admins. continue to keep the Paulbots, LaRouches and other nutjobs who claim to be "liberal" in check).

                          I just saw this and frankly I was completely reminded of what this place has become around I/P:

                          Notice the commentary by the little asshole at the end of the rant.

                          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                          by volleyboy1 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 at 09:46:39 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Rude...again vollyboy. Wow, sad really. (0+ / 0-)

                    Rather lame - Calling me anti-semantic for trying to discuss and share info?  

                                                  Look in the mirror rude one.

                    You paint a broad brush full of hateful words.  I do feel sorry for you, as you have closed your mind to discussion of any type that does not fit your stereotype, regardless of what is happening in reality.

                    Good luck with all that.

                                   •    "When the power of love overcomes
                                                   the love of power
                                                         the world will know peace."
                                             ~Jimi Hendrix, Guitarist, 101st Airborne

                    •  Russgirl... you are a bigot, so really I (0+ / 0-)

                      don't care if you call me rude. I am not nice to bigots or racists of any kind and I see no need to change that.

                      I am calling you anti-Semitic because you post info. from anti-Semitic sites. More than that, you actually published discredited quotes that come from Neo-Nazi sites. AND even more than that you posted a list of Jewish Americans (some of them) and then called them dual citizens and questioned their loyalty to the U.S. based solely on the fact that they are Jewish.

                      Now why the hell would I or anyone else want to discuss anything with you or view the lies you call "information" or "opinions". What next?

                      You represent the worst in all of us.

                      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                      by volleyboy1 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 at 07:39:21 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuush (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      poco

      Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

      by angry marmot on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 03:50:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  After reading this and other comments (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL

        Do you still think my "Trying to turn this site into MondoFront" comment is that funny? Because pretty much it is shit like this that makes that comment completely true.

        I mean you did see this part of the diary:

        There are many parallels between the actions of ghetto Jews in WWII and Palestinians today, up to and including kidnappings, killings, and bombings. In the days of the Holocaust, these actions were considered "heroic"; now they are merely "terroristic", thanks to the Israeli publicity machine.
        and you can't donut that???? What can you donut then?

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:29:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Strange are the ways of donuts... (0+ / 0-)

          Assuming this diarist is as new as the UID suggests, my comment above states my position. I'm assuming you read it, though perhaps you only read ITSCS's reply.

          As for your MondoFront comment, it did make me laugh a little as it dredged up memories of squabbles of yore, most of which are now fought elsewhere, though somewhat one-handedly.

          And as for donuts? I prefer the bomboloni freshly baked and blisteringly hot from the little stand at the top of the hill in Sidi Bou Said.

          Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time. (Terry Pratchett)

          by angry marmot on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:51:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  OY... marmot... This is blatently offensive (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mahakali overdrive

            BUT, look at the follow- up comments and the fact that this P.O.S. has 15 recs.

            Those comments don't deserve a second chance.

            BUT you know what's worse? The fact that there are new users who think they can come here and make Stormfront or Davidduke.com like comments and that they will be just dandy.

            That I think is the real problem here. Not this remarkable combination of stupidity and racism.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 05:00:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  We need to be careful with both sides (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, bluedust

            of the rhetoric. I want to strongly suggest that. And I know that you know I am equal opportunity -- 150% -- when it comes to I-P issues. Bigotry is bigotry, and none of it is appropriate for this site, which sets the standard for what Progressive discourse on this issue looks like. Avoiding extremism is quintessential for our integrity on this matter. And that means any type of bigoted speech must be dealt with as is appropriate for the Daily Kos as a political platform. I firmly believe that.

            I'm saying this to you because I have known you for a long time here, am always pleased to see you, rec you regularly, and feel really just warmly toward you. But the statement is more of a general reminder to all then a reminder to any one person; it's not aimed at you -- it's that it would be good, whatever previous MondoFront comments were made in the past, to look at what's in front of us now... I think this is the essence of what makes one a Progressive, in many ways... and to consider whether it's suitable and ethical and appropriate. There's so much hate speech in this diary and comments on both sides that it's staggering, and the same holds true in some (not all, but some) other diaries on this topic lately. So I want to invoke Robinswing who used to run SistahSpeak, which was a series here which ran alongside of BlackKos in many ways (she was a former editor), and her aim was to call out and to reject bigotry toward African-Americans and others when she saw it; if that was not her sole aim, it was at least part of it, for she didn't mince words. And when she spoke about hard truths, and her speech was uplifting, she would say "Now go tell that." So I want to say what I have said here -- that we cannot afford, as Progressives, to let extremist or bigoted or racist rhetoric dominate or define the discourse surrounding Israel-Palestine. Now go tell that! ;)

    •  HR for racism (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jj24, mahakali overdrive, volleyboy1

      and cluelessness. sigh.

      This Rover crossed over.. Willie Nelson, written by Dorothy Fields

      by Karl Rover on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:22:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just for the record, I would as well (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jj24

        but am presently out of donuts due to dealing with the racism and bigotry coming from both sides on this site over the past few days (because of the Gaza tension).

        •  i appreciate seeing this - thanks. (0+ / 0-)

          maybe i have mistaken you.... however, you'd really have to apologize for your personal slams against me with your buds.

          Romney in a landslide!

          by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:59:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You have not mistaken me (0+ / 0-)

            I find your rhetoric out of bounds; you are correct to note that. If you don't know why, we can discuss it at some point, if you are genuinely and truly confused by this -- but this is not all about you, this geopolitical and historic situation has nothing to do with your fee-fees when people speak out about others promoting bigoted intolerance, period.

            Your mistake is thinking I don't care about ALL bigotry and ALL racism: I do. Deeply. It is central to the notion of an equal, Democratic, socially Progressive society.

            •  i am disappointed by it. (0+ / 0-)

              confused?  not so much.

              i'm not a policy analyst, a professional poster, not pro-palestinian, or an I/P expert, or jewish.  i'm 10 yrs sober so really took offense to your drug comment.  i've worked directly for the kerry, obama08/obama12 campaigns, and although i have no reason to demonize Ron Paul, I'm no supporter.  it's ridiculous i should even have to say that here of all places.

              what i am is a liberal, wondering about my country's long-term support of another who's oppressing, occupying, and killing its political enemies.  i absolutely get to say that, and make my decisions accordingly - the price of admission shouldn't be that i'm labeled a bigot, just because it's Israel who's doing the killing.

              Israel's actions are wrong toward Palestinians - and others (i.e., lebanon).  that's all i ever said, and mean to say.  and no, i can't understand how a people who were so oppressed, would turn around and be the continual oppressors.  it's the no-brainer, first question anyone would ask when they get up to speed on modern Isreali foreign policy.  do you actually have an answer?  or, lacking an answer, would you just like to blast me?  is the world really divided into 2 types of people - israel apologists and anti-semites?  of course, i reject the notion, but you'd think it's the case here.  and if this is the "rhetoric" you don't like, you might back down on forcing everyone who doesn't agree with you into the bigot camp.  and as much as you don't like my "rhetoric," you will survive.  Some Palestinians today, will not.

              here's a discussion to have: "Israel's right because..." or "they're not oppressing, and here's why..." but i haven't seen this.  why isn't a real discussion being had by people like you, who believe they ARE the experts in the room?

              Romney in a landslide!

              by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:05:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I can't make that argument because (0+ / 0-)

                I am pro two-state solution and not pro-Israel. I don't think Israel is "right." I think the situation is terrible. I also think the Government tends to act outside of the support of most Israeli citizens, just like how some RW government does outside of the U.S. I am, however, Jewish and take offense to anti-semitism, personally. I equally am disgusted and disturbed by anti-Palestinian speech, but their Governing body is similarly working outside of their interests (at least Hamas is, in my humble opinion). From a Sociological standpoint, this is a powderkeg that blows again and again. Therefore, some solution must be found, and soon, and the U.S. and U.N. are currently negotiating toward that end in Gaza.

                Real discussions are being had every day here, all over this site.

                The rest of your statement is deeply offensive in parts, and I won't highlight which because it would be evident to most readers that this comment has some deeply and specifically troubling statements that are hurtful and divisive. Thus I refrain from further commentary with you.

  •  This post is important - please don't trivialise (6+ / 0-)

    Long time reader, occasional poster. As an Evangelical myself who swung to the left because of George Bush, I would like to support Jilly W, because I've made a very similar journey. Christian Zionism is very strong on the Evangelical Right, and I grew up with the ingrained belief that that all Christians should support Judaism and the State of Israel, that any criticism of the Jews brought a curse from God, that the Palestinians had no right to their land, and that any military actions taken by Israel were always justified - because they are the Chosen People.

    This isn't an antisemitic belief system, and I think I have to emphasise this. This is Evangelical Christian Zionism. It was at the heart of the support for George W Bush. Many people here are from the secular left, and really don't understand Evangelical Christianity at all, let alone all its many branches. But let me assure you that a strongly pro-Jewish, pro-Israel, pro-Zionist current is exceedingly powerful in churches that the default leftwing/rightwing political reading would otherwise categorise as "white Southern-USA Christian, therefore by default racist/antisemist, always speaking in 'dog whistles' and racist code". And you'd be completely misreading the situation by doing that. And misreading your political opponents doesn't help win political battles.

    You have a case here where a lot of your political opponents are Evangelical Christian pro-Zionists.  And many of us grew up, as I did, loving the Jews and Israel, hating and fearing the Palestinians and all Arabs and Muslims. We studied the Holocaust in both school and church (or in my case, at a church school). Our church-based political discourse, and the core of our political activism, was based around "protecting Israel and preventing another Hitler". There are Christian groups which advocate as strongy as AIPAC, if not more strongly, for Israel to have a completely free hand in the Middle East, to reshape it in its own image - because "Israel is the Chosen People and therefore nothing they choose to do can be wrong". This isn't some cynical posturing; we don't want to "kill them all or convert them to Christianity". We, I, grew up believing that the modern state of Israel was "God's plan" alongside the Church.

    And these are the people - the hard core of white, Western, Christian supporters of Israel - who are very, very slowly, becoming concerned by Israel's actions. We've been taught all our lives that the Palestinians Are Simply Bad And Wrong, that they're all Jew-haters, and -- pretty much like the Philistines in the Old Testament -- should be exterminated if they resist. We've believed that the mainstream media is always "slanted against Israel" and have self-censored ourselves for decades.

    And our faltering in our commitment to Israel is real, and our analysis of it in terms of what happened in WW2 is also very real, because it's how we've been taught; that everything in politics is potentially a replay of Germany.

    Please listen to what Jilly W has to say. Please don't troll-rate on sight. We are the people you need to reach out to. We're the convincable centrists who, like me, have been making the journey from centre-right to centre-left over the last ten years. If you alienate us, if you jump and consider us "anti-semites", which is the exact opposite of what we are, then we're just going to run away from your bloc.

    (Probably not back to the right, because eww, Dubya Bush ruined that for a generation; but we'll probably just exist the secular political conversation entirely, and go back to our churches where we feel safer.)

    Do you want to win the Evangelical center-right? I mean, maybe you don't, and if you don't, keep shouting at shadows and calling us anti-semites. But if you do, you have a chance. Listen, if you can.

  •  Oh, fuck off. HR. (9+ / 0-)

    Why, you ask?

    In recent discussions we've talked about the similarities to the Jewish uprisings during the Holocaust. We are all torn between love and respect for the country of Israel and hatred for the actions of the current government.
    When you find yourself hating anything at all, even the execrable current government of Israel, you really shouldn't be putting finger to keyboard in the first place.
    It seems Israel may not have learned from the Holocaust after all, if they think it is right to do to others in their land precisely what was done to them in Europe.
    Second, do you who was like the Nazis? The Nazis, that's who. Do you know what was like the Holocaust? Absolutely fucking nothing, ever. When Israel starts setting up slave labor camps with gas chambers or starts boiling Palestinians down into soap, you'll have a point. When 70% or more of Palestinians within Israel's reach are slaughtered, you'll have a point.

    Until then, read some fucking history, new user #634,847.

    Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

    by MBNYC on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 04:47:27 PM PST

    •  I feel like it's very much HRable (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrugalGranny, volleyboy1, Mets102, MBNYC

      but with 20 uprates, as many recs, and 5 donuts in the tip jar, I have to wonder whether I'm off-base. I don't believe I am because I wholly agree with the second part of your comment.

      •  someone is giving their opinion. just let it go. (0+ / 0-)

        Romney in a landslide!

        by jj24 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 07:46:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          Or for that matter, how about you let it go, before your Ron Paul crush shades into outright trollishness itself?

          Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

          by MBNYC on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 04:25:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  all you do is try to start division... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            splintersawry

            i wasn't talking to you.  you're just another one of the bullies, have zero use for you, your lies, your smears, your attack campaigns, your bully tactics.  you don't even seem to be here as regards political discussion - just flame, bait, trash.  useless.

            Romney in a landslide!

            by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 06:07:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Paulbot says what? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive, volleyboy1

              Let's just review: I'm a Democrat. I'm supposedly one of the top 100 online leftie influencers in the country. I've been published next to Noam Chomsky and Van Jones. The NAACP follows me on Twitter. I've been invited to the White House.

              You're an apologist for racism, cf. your comment record right here. And I'm perfectly fine with 'dividing' you and your ilk from actual Progressives. Guilty as charged.

              Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

              by MBNYC on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 08:42:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  what would chomsky say about your childish (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                splintersawry

                behavior here?  he certainly doesn't agree with you, and i think you'd end up ganging up on him and trying to ban him for his views.  here's a snippet:

                http://www.youtube.com/...

                I will tell you one last time.  I don't deserve your smear; i am a liberal, i am not a bigot, or a racist.  i don't have to prove a goddamned thing to you, and i should be able to speak my opinion on this site without your abuse.  this is not ok.

                Romney in a landslide!

                by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 09:16:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh yeah? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive, volleyboy1

                  Easy solution: stop spamming Ron Paul crap, and defending a racist diary because 'it's just a discussion'. You and me will get along just fine.

                  Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

                  by MBNYC on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:34:59 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  take a fucking step back. (0+ / 0-)

                    look back at that.  another poster posted the list.  volleyboy1 started fucking RAGING and spewing "stormfront!" and "davidduke!" as the source, and got the "gang" all riled up.  

                    because i never saw that list; and because i don't trust that guy - i googled myself.  while i DID NOT find stormfront OR davidduke as a source, i did find the list - from 2009, on a ron paul msg site.  so - NOT stormfront.  NOT davidduke.  NOT a DK favorite, but ABSOLUTELY not racist on its face.  i linked to it, to show - hey - the pure racism argument against that poster is not true.

                    now with the "racist" diary.  i don't see it as such.  your opinion - i simply don't agree.  so - do what you always do when you don't agree, you all-important king of dems, you. i gotta say, i didn't realize how motherfucking important you were.  what's your real name?  i'm sure i'd shudder in horror, arguing with such a pillar - but how would i have known?  all you seem to do here is witchhunt.  god, i hope you're not someone i respect in real life.

                    at any rate, just stop with your smearing of me.

                    Romney in a landslide!

                    by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 10:50:44 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ron Paul is a racist. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mahakali overdrive, volleyboy1

                      Period. If you don't know that, though I suspect you do, there's no helping you.

                      And as far as what I always do, please, cupcake; I have no idea who you are, nor do I much care. And I would strongly suggest you climb off the cross, because really, it doesn't suit you.

                      Unless they're wearing unhinged out in the burbs these days, of course.

                      Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

                      by MBNYC on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 12:39:07 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No - (0+ / 0-)

                        i really don't know if Ron Paul's a racist or not.  i know a faction of DK says he is, very definitively - which includes you - as important as you may be, you're just one of 600,000+.  so are you really equating ron paul with that davidduke or stormfront site?  if so, link and prove it, i guess.  maybe you can show me rather than ridicule me.  i can't imagine how the MSM missed it either.  not that i care all that much, but just for the record - prove your point.

                        i know this contradicts your accusation, and i truly apologize for that MR. mbnyc, but i never followed him very closely.  

                        i think i used to get the same bullying shit from you for supporting dennis kucinich - if you're interested to know how i actually lean.

                        Romney in a landslide!

                        by jj24 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 01:04:40 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Of course. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          volleyboy1

                          Dennis K, Ron P, crackpots both. Figures they'd attract the same people.

                          Now, while I have absolutely zero recollection of you personally – I mean, please, Kucinich? That's just pathetic – I will do you one favor: back when a bunch of soi-disant "Progressives" were getting sequential orgasms over the good doctor, because drones, I sat down and did some research on what he believes and who he attracts.

                          This is what Ron Paul's supporters really look like.

                          And just like that, the discussion on Daily Kos about Ron Paul was over. Done.

                          So please forgive me, but Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul both are figures of absolute contempt for me. If that's who you want to carry water for, by all means, but don't expect either another reply or even a tiny little bit of understanding.

                          Fuck you, I put on pants yesterday.

                          by MBNYC on Tue Nov 20, 2012 at 02:51:19 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Damn the man, MBNYC (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                volleyboy1, MBNYC

                That's impressive. I didn't know that about you. Too cool. I'm not surprised I listen up when you speak!

                I'm rec'ing this because not long after leaving from this diary, the same poster went after a well-known and much-loved African-American Kossack with similar rhetoric. It was so bad that it prompted an entire diary on the topic.

                So I'd say that there's a race-issue going on here all around. Or else something else. But it's troubling.

  •  I support Israel like I support Papua New Guinea (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chancew, jj24, SomeStones

    or Liechtenstein, as in I don't really care about it. I'm not Jewish nor do I believe in Biblical nonsense, so I don't feel like I have any reason to be more concerned about Israel's security than the security of Kazakhstan. ... I wish there were more people like me in this country.

  •  This is the truth. This diary speaks for me. (5+ / 0-)

    I was just talking to my wife about this for 20 minutes, and I said much of this.

    Israel is a democracy, more or less, just like the United States, and they elected a super-right-wing leadership, just like the United States did with George W. Bush.

    In my opinion--and the facts are clear--Netanyahu, that savage, is killing many innocents in Gaza for no other real reason than his own personal political advantage in the election in January.

    Considering the way that Netanyahu worked with Romney and Sheldon Adelson and others to defeat Barack Obama, I can hardly believe what I'm seeing when Obama gives NO criticism of Israel.

    If Israel really does invade the small, urban territory of Gaza with 75,000 troops, as is rumored . . . let's pray it doesn't happen!

    Netanyahu, and GWB, should both be in prison for war crimes and murder.

  •  I'm going to hiderate this diary... (7+ / 0-)

    mainly because of this:

    It seems Israel may not have learned from the Holocaust after all, if they think it is right to do to others in their land precisely what was done to them in Europe.
    Please let me know when Israel starts killing millions of Palestinians per year in work and death camps.

    Until then, please refrain from posting such dumb shit.

    I strongly dislike Netanyahu and the current Israeli Govt., but that's no reason to post asinine, inflammatory, stupid diaries like this one.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:18:06 PM PST

  •  hide rated (5+ / 0-)

    for comparing israel to the nazis. i despise israel's militant government, but you really need to study your history of the holocaust.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 08:37:06 PM PST

  •  Holacausts Are Plain Wrong (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bluedust, jj24

    But what's a little death & destruction between sworn enemies? What's the score this time? 100-3, a mere child in the killing fields could have dispatched more souls in a day. We will need far more funerals in Gaza before this violence & destruction registers on the top ten list of genocides.

    On the other hand, those two tablets Moses hauled down Mt. Sinai seem to mention something about coveting, stealing, and killing. Systemized oppression of a people is not explicitly covered in the ten commandments but it is clearly not an ethical way to protect national security interests, unless you happen to stand with those who employ these kinds of tactics.

    The only way to honor the reality of this situation, which seems most akin to a reservation system, is to give everyone in the occupied territories the right to vote for Knesset members. There is only one state now, only some are on reservations without the right to vote.

    By the way, I do not condone the genocide carried out against the Native Americans in North America. My text books in my history classes were never able to name the treatment of Native Americans as genocide, but that's what it was.

    Let's accurately name what the Israeli government is doing in the occupied territories. It sure ain't Holocaust but it's just not right.  Each time the word Holocaust is employed like a cudgel by some lobbyist for Israel speaking in support of systematic oppression of Palestinians I am offended.  I can understand why this imagery would offend those who support Israel's actions in the occupied territories.  When everyone here can agree on how to name the ongoing mistreatment of the Palestinian people, then it will be much easier to  clearly characterize and fairly judge those deeds.

    As surely as there is a god in heaven, I am an atheist.

    by Gemut on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:09:55 PM PST

  •  WTF? 20 tips? (5+ / 0-)

    Is this for real?  Is this what DKos has become?  Another haven for racists and race-baiters, a place for professional hate-mongers to hide behind progressivism (and in the meanwhile tainting progressivism with the stench of hate?).  Folks, this is why some people in America associate progressivism with anti-semitism.

    Someone please tell me that there's a limit, somewhere, that there is a line and that there will be consequences at some point for this.

    It's not enough to ban links to Mondoweiss.  How's about banning, you know, the hate-filled rhetoric of Mondoweiss too?

    Sorry if I'm coming off too strong but something about the last few days on this site has just sent me over the edge.  I'm starting to feel very uncomfortable and more than a little unwelcome, to be honest.  The sad thing is that I think that's the goal of some of these posters.

    "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

    by auron renouille on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:31:05 PM PST

    •  You are NOT coming off as too strong (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mets102, auron renouille, livosh1, Zygoat

      This P.O.S. is incredibly offensive. There don't seem to be many consequences either for the diarist OR the 20 people that tipped this despite the fact that the diary engages in some pretty awful and offensive meme's. HOWEVER, the diary was just written today so I am of the mind to give the admins. some to time to wipe this out.

      This is the anti-Semitism that Mets talked about in a few diaries and that apparently has surfaced in the last few days.

      Now, some would say... "Well people are frustrated and they are simply venting" BUT.. the thing is that if you have use racist meme's to "vent" then pretty much there is something completely wrong with you. It means that your "default" is racism and bigotry.

      As I said in my email to Markos and elfing... It is not even the bigotry and racism in these posts that are the worst thing. It is the fact that bigots and racists feel comfortable hanging out on DKos and not only that... but are welcomed here to a degree. There are plenty of people reading this who are staying out of the discussion rather than criticize someone on their "side". It's both sad and pathetic and in my opinion are just as culpable for not speaking out.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 at 09:56:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  So what does this all (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    volleyboy1

    have to do with electing Democrats to public office in the United States?  

    Suggest the admins delete the whole thing.

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