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Night Owl
The White House website hosts a petition page where citizens can raise matters of concern. The administration will respond to any petition that receives 25,000 or more signatures. Petitions run the gamut, from those seeking legalization of marijuana to those seeking an end of tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans. Recently, petitions seeking the peaceful secession of states from the Union made a splash in the traditional media.

In the wake of the shooting deaths at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut today, several petitions relating to guns appeared.

While some people, including White House press secretary Jay Carney, argued that Friday was not the day to begin talking about changing the nation's gun policies, some congresspeople and tens of thousands of citizens had other ideas. Among them were those who started a petition urging President Obama to introduce legislation in Congress restricting access to firearms. Just before Night Owls was posted, the petition had more than 65,000 52,000 signatures:

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:

Immediately address the issue of gun control through the introduction of legislation in Congress.

The goal of this petition is to force the Obama Administration to produce legislation that limits access to guns. While a national dialogue is critical, laws are the only means in which we can reduce the number of people murdered in gun related deaths.

Powerful lobbying groups allow the ownership of guns to reach beyond the Constitution's intended purpose of the right to bear arms. Therefore, Congress must act on what is stated law, and face the reality that access to firearms reaches beyond what the Second Amendment intends to achieve.

The signatures on this petition represent a collective demand for a bipartisan discussion resulting in a set of laws that regulates how a citizen obtains a gun.

Another petition took a sharply different approach. As posting time, it had more than 800 signatures:

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:

A gun in every classroom. Arm every teacher and principal to defend themselves and their students during an attack.

If teachers and principals are armed and trained to defend themselves during a school attack there would be fewer casualties and less attempts to attack schools.

Fact: Crime rates decrease when the people are better armed.

It is time we gave our teachers the ability to defend themselves and stop pretending like a door buzzer is enough of a defense. Take a stand for school safety. Arm the teachers and principals today. A gun in every classroom will protect our students from massacres like the one in CT today.

Daily Kos also initiated a petition today asking President Obama to initiate a national conversation on gun control. You can sign it here.


Blast from the Past. At Daily Kos on this date in 2003Saddam Captured; What's Next?

They dug him out of a hole.  

It's one of the most ignominious ends to a tyrant's freedom, almost as humiliating an end to his reign as when the bodies of Mussolini and his mistress Clara Petacci were dangled from a pole in the Piazza Loreto in Milan, like deer carcasses being bled out in a hunting camp. Saddam's done, and the world is a better place for it.

Clearly there will be celebrating by many in Iraq. But what's next? The U.S. officials haven't indicated what will be done with Saddam, but Ahmed Chalabi is already making declarations that Saddam will go on public trial before the Iraqi people. Will there be a public trial? Will the U.S. chose to keep Saddam quiet?  

What about weapons of mass destruction? Now we've got the guy in custody, and he's probably beaten and demoralized. Maybe he'll be like Milosevic and stay defiant, but the early pictures don't show a man with the energy to maintain resistance. So he may be inclined to tell the truth about WMD. But is the truth what the Bush administration wants Saddam to tell?


Tweet of the Day:

I'm starting to warm up to this Mayan Doomsday thing.
@eclecticbrotha via TweetDeck




On today's Kagro in the Morning show, the Pew poll shows the Prez up and the Gop down. Our daily dose of filibuster reform, with Jonathan Bernstein's objections to Sen. Merkley's plan, and a great listener phone call from Mike in Pittsburgh, pointing out that "talking filibusters" might make it easier to change the rules next time. Finally, a small government defense of unions. Stop workers from privately ordering affairs with employers through unions, and they'll vote in a government that'll do it for them.


Top Comments.

Poll

What is your No. 1 priority on gun control?

7%686 votes
0%59 votes
0%89 votes
16%1490 votes
15%1418 votes
22%2103 votes
8%760 votes
3%287 votes
6%599 votes
1%109 votes
12%1206 votes
3%337 votes
1%141 votes

| 9287 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

  •  Vicki Soto, 26, First Grade Teacher (101+ / 0-)

    Killed while shielding her students from the gunfire.

    Photobucket

    Be sure you put your feet in the right place; then stand firm. ~ Abraham Lincoln

    by noweasels on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:33:32 PM PST

  •  In Baghdad, you get up in the morning and go (34+ / 0-)

    about your business not knowing whether it will be the last day of your life because a car bomb might blow you to bits in the marketplace.  In the USA, you get up in the morning and go about your business not knowing whether it will be the last day of your life because some madman with too much testosterone has an assault rifle and plenty of ammo, and is going to blow everyone in the school/post office/shopping mall to bits.

    When will we ever learn in this country? When will anything be done?  Will it be only when some madman kills all the children of the legislators in the Congress?  Congress doesn't seem to care when it happens to ordinary citizens.

    "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."--Napoleon

    by Diana in NoVa on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:34:51 PM PST

      •  Boy I wish folks would start figuring that out. (23+ / 0-)

        The fucking NRA is the FAUX newz of guns.

        if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

        by mrsgoo on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:57:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  They are (6+ / 0-)

          Al Qaeda.   They have their religion and do not care how many innocent children die to satisfy their bloodlust.   The MRA approved these murders and an "acceptable cost" of their selfish defense of their "rights".  Never forget that for gun rights advocates these kids deaths are just the cost of doing business

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:11:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Several times yesterday I heard on various TV (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW, Helpless

          discussions of this latest gun massacre of innocents that close to 3/4 of NRA members support better gun control.  These members need to take charge of their own organization  and make their highly paid leaders do their bidding.

          The NRA I recall of my childhood supported gun safety, safe and ethical hunting, target practice and training.  Now they seem like nothing more than the domestic arm of the MIC, encouraging violence worldwide to drum up sales for their wares.  Arms profiteers.  Let's do something about them, beginning with the lobbyists.

      •  Exactly (6+ / 0-)

        Chicago--Proud Home of the 1907-08 World Series Champion Chicago Cubs

        by Jeff Y on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:52:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  NRA = (4+ / 0-)

        guN manufactureRs of americA

        Republicans believe you need an ID to vote but you can donate millions to any candidate completely anonymously. (h/t jbou)

        by Calouste on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:54:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  That and their own fundraising (4+ / 0-)

        The members are there to be mined for fear-based fundraising. There are still some worthwhile programs (betcha the police in your area learned to handle firearms from an NRA-trained instructor) but it looks more like a right-wing money machine now.

      •  Soooooo... first it was... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Heart of the Rockies

        ... illegal and unconstitutional wars paid for by loans from China and elsewhere (and some "borrowed" from Soc Sec?), unconstitutional laws that have STILL not been repealed to give us back our rights, forcing seniors and disabled to buy corporate prescription insurance for Medicare Part D when we were told .buy corporate insurance or else' (Parts A & B premiums are already deducted from SSI or SSDI checks before they are deposited in a person's account).  Then comes 'buy corporate medical insurance or pay a fine of $1000.'

        Next they could just as easily force us to all buy guns (and insure them!) to make more money from arms manufacturers because the military-industrial-congressional complex hasn't made enough record-setting profits..., and someone will finally realize the first part of the Second Amendment talks about militias [early version of state or national guards before there was a US, so the term militia is used in the Second Amendment because there was no standing army yet when the Constitution was written].

        Then there's the military stuff going to Turkey that made the Friday afternoon news dump.  Drones are still killing civilians in whichever gawdfersaken little country still, making us more enemies than we had before we illegally invaded, but hey, mercenary corporations are making out like the bandits they are.

        Gee, ya know what that sounds like, don'tcha...?  Cheer up!  It's only putting us deeper into debt while the corporations that make record-setting profits make out VERY well on the money Congress gives them from OUR treasury..., VERY well, indeed...!

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
        -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

        Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.
        -- Benito Mussolini

        Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace.
        -- Benito Mussolini

        Ooooh, oooh, oooh...!  Looky, shiny object over here!  Come be distracted...!  Ignore what the crooks in DC are doing; they're only stealing our money for their own good or that of their corporate buddies or Wall Street Casino or investment bankers....

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:00:06 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The escalation of our involvement in (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          NonnyO

          the Middle East by providing both troops and arms to Turkey was completed neglected because of the news of the Newtown massacre.  Have we had any kind of a national discussion of this major move?  Furthermore, from what I've read, and it's all confusing and one cannot check reliability, the motives and methods of the rebels in Syria are no better than the established government.

          •  Not that I know of or have read (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Heart of the Rockies
            Have we had any kind of a national discussion of this major move?
            The story didn't come out until yesterday, so it was part of the Friday News Dump that I'm quite sure everyone in government hoped would not get noticed.

            Right after I found it online, the news about the senseless murders in CT came out, so that obliterated every other news blurb.

            You are correct: it's all confusing.

            All I know for sure is that I'm tired of our money being wasted in places that are NOT going to benefit the "little people" who represent the 99% of this nation.  Big corporations and richey-rich muckety mucks on Wall Street or investment bankers..., yes, it goes without saying they'll rake in big bucks one way or another (by selling arms to them or by profiting from some kind of natural resource they have, or maybe this time they'll get flying privileges in Turkish air space.  I'm not really sure..., just that We The People will be the poorer for these crappy misadventures.

            I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

            by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:53:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  There are no premiums for Medicare part A. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffW
          Parts A & B premiums are already deducted from SSI or SSDI checks before they are deposited in a person's account.
          It's paid for by the Medicare taxes deducted from the pay of working people, not by deductions from the benefits of retired people.  

          Renewable energy brings national global security.     

          by Calamity Jean on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 10:19:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hey how many babies did you kill (1+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      Killer of Sacred Cows
      Hidden by:
      ConfusedSkyes

      Today, RKBAers?

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:14:59 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  WTF? (0+ / 0-)

        That's a little over-the-top.




        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
        ~ Jerry Garcia

        by DeadHead on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:40:30 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I"m sorry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DeadHead

          I've been pretty livid, a response to the lingering fear parents feel, I think.

          I feel that when people support policies that we KNOW will result in deaths or harms, those people bear some moral culpability for the positions they support.  When people support reduced environmental protections to boost corporate profits, they bear some responsibility for the deaths and illnesses that result.  When they support policies that will kill millions because of our inaction on climate change, there too is some responsibility.  When we people put corporate profits ahead of the well being of people by pushing for an unregulated for-profit health insurance industry, there is some moral culpability for those deaths that happened as a remote consequence of their polticial actions.  A similar analysis applies here.  

          My statement of that, is pretty much over the top, as you say, though.

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:22:50 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I know. This is an incomprehensible tragedy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mindful Nature

            I just know that I get my feathers a little ruffled when somebody starts painting with a broad brush that somehow automatically includes me.

            I understand where you're coming from, though.




            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
            ~ Jerry Garcia

            by DeadHead on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:45:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Weird (9+ / 0-)

    I only see 52,000 signatures. I wonder if a bunch of accounts got wiped for some reason.

  •  We have to have a discussion (22+ / 0-)

    I think that the NRA has really stifled having even a rational debate about guns. I'm not anti-Second Amendment, but I am for sensible gun control, the sort that hasn't ever been really discussed.

    Banning semi-automatic weapons is a great start, but even that will be framed in a completely nefarious way by the NRA.

    26, Male, CA-24 (new CA-26), DK Elections Black Caucus Chair.

    by DrPhillips on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:39:06 PM PST

  •  from the "counter petition" page: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    glorificus, historys mysteries

    "Fact: Crime rates decrease when the people are better armed..." STATE STATISTIC AND FUCKING REFERENCE THIS SUPPOSED AND PROBABLY MADE-UP FUCKING "FACT" before your post it to a goddamned government website! OTHERWISE YOUR PROPOSAL IS FUCKING NIL! TOSSED IN THE TRASH! FUCK YOU! LIVE HERE OR GET OUT!

    FASTFOOD MORALS: BIG MAC OR QP? REPUBLICAN OBSTRUCTIONISM=PAST FORTY YEARS FUCKED! WAR ECONOMY=USA ECONOMY=CIVILIAN WAGES=VOTES=RINSE=REPEAT! =OCCUPY!= THEY'RE TAKING AWAY YOUR VOTE RIGHT NOW! CHARGE $50,000 FOR LUNCH EVERY DAY! TRICKLE-UP STOPS NOW!

    by theChild on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:39:25 PM PST

  •  I Hope We Realize (2+ / 0-)

     That we have numerous democrats amongst our Senate majority and in our House of Reps total, located in red state territory, that we would lose if they supported any of the above.

    •  ANY of the above? You mean loosening... (12+ / 0-)

      ...gun-control laws? Keeping them as is? Having teachers and principals have guns in classrooms?

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:49:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed ... and I have a Diary in me (4+ / 0-)

        And I am fully aware this subject will be Diaried to death yet ...

        There is a real disconnect. Even on this progressive site we cannot hold a rational discussion with those who actively support the RKBA.

        There is a hump we can't get past, and I've tried, God knows I've tried as have many others.

        The problem is that NO rational proposal is accepted because it is not a complete solution to the problem. Anything suggested is shot down with "That will not work".

        Well of course it will not work, not on it's own. When were we expected to deal with this issue in one go?

        "It's the thin end of the wedge" ... What frickin' wedge? The one that leads to a safe society?

        We have got to start, and we need the start to be something we can build on.

        I'll guarantee one thing. If we do not start it will never end. If that is not the outcome they want, then they damn well need to start talking.

        I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
        but I fear we will remain Democrats.

        by twigg on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:04:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  exactly. think about this: (4+ / 0-)

          When we imposed lower speed limits in residential areas, that didn't stop all speeders, but it did significantly lower the number of deaths-by-car in those neighborhoods.

          Should we stop having speed limits because some people still speed?

        •  What does RKBA stand for? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          twigg

          Sorry..., but I've been looking at those four letters for a great many hours and I can't work it out.

          Better to just ask....

          I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

          by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:21:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  It stands for (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NonnyO

            the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

            Taken from the wording of the 2nd Amendment ...

            "... the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"

            I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
            but I fear we will remain Democrats.

            by twigg on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:25:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              twigg

              I focus on the first part of the Second Amendment that every gun nut fails to remember (especially since finding the most Rev War soldier among my ancestors who fought in a bunch of really famous battles).  

              A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...
              The advantage of genealogy research is finding out a whole bunch of assorted interesting info on one's ancestors.  My most recent find isn't the only one who was in the Rev War.  I knew he had been in it..., but not until I found his application for a military pension after he broke his thigh bone and his shoulder bone did I read the list of famous battles he was in, and that he re-enlisted after the first three years, so spent a total of six years in the Rev. War.  He seems to have made it home uninjured, married, had a large family....

              I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

              by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:33:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Perhaps it can be framed within the context of (3+ / 0-)

      "assault guns and magazine clips" along with improved health care of all kinds, economic equality, and better care for returning vets?

    •  That is why the people have to rise up and demand (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      atana, jan4insight, Williston Barrett

      change.

      if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

      by mrsgoo on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:02:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Having a conversation? (8+ / 0-)

      I think that what a lot of people are feeling today is that now, in the wake of this tragedy, now while are hearts are open and the heartbreak is deeply felt, that now is the time to start having the conversation.  Yes, in some districts and states it will take courage, and will carry some risk to the prospects of re-election; but what so many are asking today is - if not now, when?  When would be a better time than now, while the hurt is still so deeply felt, while the tears still stream down our cheeks?  Now while our hearts are open and our compassion for these families pours forth.  What so many are pointing to today is that the problem is getting worse over time, that continuing to go down this same road of doing nothing does not appear to be very promising for the future of our children.  There are deep systemic problems in our culture that are not going away, that closing our eyes to will not cure, that are becoming more insidious and destructive.  At some point we will have to have this conversation.  We cannot continue to put it off forever.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Love one another

      by davehouck on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:12:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        davehouck

        If we impose some kind of "waiting period" after every murder-by-gun before raising the issue, then it will never get raised because there are stupid, senseless murders every day at the hands of people who use weapons that shouldn't exist, let alone be for sale in the corner store.

        •  I'm ok with having a waiting period (0+ / 0-)

          After every murder by gun where we don't talk about gun control, as long as no guns are sold during that same period. Just keep the status quo as it was just before the murder, not fewer guns, not more guns, that's fair, right?

          Republicans believe you need an ID to vote but you can donate millions to any candidate completely anonymously. (h/t jbou)

          by Calouste on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:00:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Then every last one of those Democrats... (5+ / 0-)

      ...should shut the fuck up the next time a mass-murder event happens. They have no right to say their hearts or prayers or thoughts or anything go out to the victims. They have no true condolences. If they're too afraid to act to change our policies, then they should shut up when the results of those policies become displayed for the world to see.

      •  It's always about re-election. That seems to be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        delver rootnose

        the ONLY thing they are about. This is why we get so little done. They are living in constant fear (while constantly fundraising out of necessity). It's a screwed up system.

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

        by cany on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:43:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  school classrooms are not aircraft flightdecks (20+ / 0-)
    It is time we gave our teachers the ability to defend themselves and stop pretending like a door buzzer is enough of a defense. Take a stand for school safety. Arm the teachers and principals today. A gun in every classroom will protect our students from massacres like the one in CT today.

    yksitoista ulotteinen presidentin shakki. / tappaa kaikki natsit "Nous sommes un groupuscule" (-9.50; -7.03) 政治委员, 政委‽ Warning - some snark above ‽

    by annieli on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:40:20 PM PST

  •  The sick thing is... (10+ / 0-)

    sales of the weapons used in this incident will likely skyrocket due to the publicity, adding more money to the coffers of gun manufacturers and the NRA.

    Mission accomplished, as far as they are concerned.

    The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -- John Kenneth Galbraith

    by richardak on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:40:31 PM PST

  •  Gotta love that tweet, regrettably. (4+ / 0-)
  •  powerless (28+ / 0-)

    The Guardian

    The little 7 year old son of the man quoted here made it home safely today. But, of all the things I read and pictures I saw today, this really stayed with me. I didn't see a picture of this father, but I felt him, and because of him, all of the other mothers and fathers to the depths of a trembling gut. Still do.

    "I could try to explain it but I'm sure I would fail," said Wilford. "There's no words that I could come up with that would even come close to describing the sheer terror of hearing that your son is in a place, or your child's in a place, where there's been violence.

    "You don't know the details of that violence, you don't know the condition of your child and you can't do anything to immediately help them or protect them. It is a powerless and terrifying experience."

  •  I think this will be an unpopular opinion. (14+ / 0-)

    I'm not convinced that gun control will effect mass shootings by the mentally ill.

    We should be talking about other solutions. If this leads to new gun control legislation, I'm okay with that, but it might be kind of like the requirement that I take off my shoes before I board a plane.

    It feels like a solution, but it isn't really.

    "Jersey_Boy" was taken.

    by New Jersey Boy on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:42:27 PM PST

    •  We should be talking about everything. (33+ / 0-)

      People want guns because they see violence as a means to solve their problems. We have to address why our culture is so violent, and not just he mentally ill. We are obsessed with violence, the gun obsession goes along with that and makes it easier to be violent, so YES gun control is part of the solution, but only part.

      Sorry for the run on sentence.

      "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

      by ranger995 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:50:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Can't rec this enough. (11+ / 0-)

        if a habitat is flooded, the improvement for target fishes increases by an infinite percentage...because a habitat suitability index that is even a tiny fraction of 1 is still infinitely higher than zero, which is the suitability of dry land to fishes.

        by mrsgoo on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:03:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes to this. (4+ / 0-)

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Love one another

        by davehouck on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:18:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's my point. (6+ / 0-)

        I'm one of the parents who thinks first person shooter games are a terrible thing.

        Add mental illness and easy access to an automatic weapon and we get tragedy.

        Let's address all of these.

        "Jersey_Boy" was taken.

        by New Jersey Boy on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:24:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think they desensitize kids to the reality of (0+ / 0-)

          violence and death, for one thing. To fully comprehend permanent, irreversible consequences of ones own actions - for most people - doesn't gel until adulthood.

          "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

          by 417els on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:21:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I knew right from wrong... (0+ / 0-)

            ... when I was 18 months old.  I confirmed my age with my mother when I was an adult, and she was surprised I remembered the incident.

            I got punished for trying to help mom with draining the old wringer washer water when she was done washing clothes..., and got punished for it because I wasn't strong enough to hook the hose back on the washer and stop the water from running all over the floor - and ran to hide behind a lace curtain and worried about what she would say or do.  It's my first conscious memory, and at nearly 67 I still remember it vividly, along with the dress I had on.

            Children know right from wrong as toddlers.  It's the first testing they do as they watch Mommy's or Daddy's faces (or grandparents' faces) as they reach out to touch, pick up, or do whatever it is they've already been told not to do, or parent has said "No!"

            They comprehend the consequences of their actions..., but those who have been desensitized by loud TV and video games [a brainwashing thing that's seen as harmless because it's called a "game"] just don't give a $h!t.  All they care about is themselves and their instant gratification.  They are more psychopaths than sentient beings who are capable of love, compassion, empathy, and they don't really want to care for anyone else..., but they sure want others to care for them - as in take care of them like mommy did when she cooked, washed clothes, cleaned, etc., for dear sweet widdle Johnny when he was a toddler and in grade school (most of those types are boys, but more and more girls are being raised this way, too).

            I don't buy they don't know right from wrong until they're six or older.  They know.  Parents aren't observant enough to see that the child knows right from wrong, but just does what he/she wants anyway if they don't set boundaries by the time they reach toddler stage.

            Yes, I raised a child.  Yes, I watched her watch me as she reached out to pick up things I'd already said 'No!' to and she watched to see what I do each time she reached for something she wasn't supposed to have, or until I removed it from her line of sight.  She was between 12-18 months when she started doing all that.  Big enough to balance well and walk between furniture or take off on her own down a street if one didn't hold her hand, etc.

            My best friend's daughter was playing near my purse as i visited at her place once, and friend's daughter was perhaps 4-5 years old.  The little stinker stole about six rolls of cinnamon candies out of my purse, and I didn't discover that fact until I got home.  Friend called and asked if I gave them to her daughter; no, I hadn't.  The little stinker lied about it, too.  She knew exactly what she was doing and lied to cover her tracks.

            I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

            by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:58:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wringer washers (0+ / 0-)

              We had one in the basement. I had been told not to play with it, but I did. This is one of my earliest memories.

              So I was down there, about 3 years old, fishing socks out of the bin and feeding them into the wringer, because this was an interactive experience and it interested me.

              I distinctly recall trying to see how far I could get a sock into the wringer and still yank it out and at some point I lost the game and my hand and arm got pulled into the mechanism. If you recall, the two rollers were covered in a sandpaper-like material.

              It pulled me all the way up to the shoulder and then began grinding and stripping the skin away from my upper bicep. Thankfully, my mother heard my screaming and I vaguely remember the trip to the ER. There's some vestigial memory I have of my arm in some kind of metal tray lined with cotton as they fixed it up.

              Anyway. Even from the age of 3, we're learning right from wrong. This kid, at 20, obviously had passed Piaget's and Erickson's stages of development, had passed Kohlberg's stages of development, and was a rational, functioning being.

              He decided that his family had to die for some reason, and that, further, the thing his mother loved - her class - had to be punished as well. Why his mental calculus led to that outcome is unknown, but as we saw with Ted Kaczynski's manifesto, even a bright mind can go seriously astray.

              One major problem here is that he used his mother's guns. She may have been sane and responsible, but he wasn't, yet he had access to them. So any laws preventing mentally ill persons from purchasing weapons are non-operative here.

              If we had a law mandating that gun owners keep firearms in a locked manner, in a safe or such, that would maybe have worked here. But then the devices are non-useful to the owner (the mother, in this case), to prevent defense against a home invasion or whatever threat caused her to purchase those weapons in the first place.

              It's really unfortunate that the national discussion now taking place is focusing on firearms, because we have in America something like 8 guns per 10 people, in a population of 300 million. They aren't going away. We can't pass a law and make them all evaporate. And as we see in England and Australia, disarming the populace simply subjects them to more violence.

              It's a mental health problem. The killer here must have been exhibiting signs of extreme dysfunction, and his distress must have been overlooked. A child will generally not kill his or her own parents on a whim. And the Columbine killers and the Gabrielle Gifford shooter were, as explained, quite known to be disturbed and in need of some kind of help before they acted.

              But, going back to Lizzie Borden, back to Victorian-era newspapers, we see that this happens consistently in society. It's a given that socializing human beings is an imperfect science and we cannot guarantee that all come out healthy and sane.

              One reason life is precious is that it's so tenuous.

              Every day's another chance to stick it to the man. - dls

              by The Raven on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 03:33:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I did that as an adult... (0+ / 0-)

                ... hand & arm got caught in the wringer.  I was 19, staying with my folks, about six or seven months pregnant, and for whatever reason, had enough sense to reverse the thing before I did any damage, but my folks heard me yelling, got to me about the time my hand was coming back out of the wringer.

                As soon as they determined I wasn't harmed, I got ordered on the spot that I was not to do laundry if I was home alone!

                As luck would have it, I had no broken bones, no skin damage, no bruises even, just a sore arm for a few days, and that was relieved by holding my hand up above my heart.

                I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

                by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:36:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not talking about knowing right from wrong. (0+ / 0-)

              You're correct, children learn that at an early age. Much earlier than is commonly thought, in fact.

              My reference is to an ability to fully comprehend long-term consequences and absolute irreversibility of certain actions.

              "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

              by 417els on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:03:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  So do we ban FPS games? (0+ / 0-)

          Do we tell game studios to sanitize the content of these games to the point were they're "safe" enough so that parents don't have to take the time to moderate the behavior of their children?

          Sorry, but I happen to be someone who likes FPS games. I'm also of sound enough mind to be able to discern between a bunch of pixels moving on a screen and a person lying on the ground in front of me in a pool of blood.

          I'm not saying that they're good for kids. If I had any, they wouldn't be playing a certain few of them...some are disturbing. But they aren't any more desensitizing than the shit that's all over television and movies incessantly.




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:22:19 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Some reasonable gun control combined with other (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      suesue, mightymouse, cocinero

      issues directed at reducing mass slaughters and violence.

    •  We should be talking mental health care (17+ / 0-)

      and the lack of it.  In every one of these mass killing events, the perpetrator was mentally ill, people new about it, and either couldn't or didn't do something about it.  

      Yes we need the debate about guns and gun control.

      The other major part of the solution is higher quality mental health care in the US.

      After the Republicans burn down the world, they will prove the Democrats did it.

      by jimraff on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:06:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That requires talking about the need for (8+ / 0-)

        social safety net programs here in America. The only talk I hear is how much they should be taken down.

        -- We are just regular people informed on issues

        by mike101 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:29:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It also means gun regulations that REQUIRE (4+ / 0-)

        that guns are locked up safely and that if a child or other gets that gun out and uses it, the registered owner is culpable.

        Apparently, these guns were not properly secured. If they were, I guess this wouldn't have happened.

        202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

        by cany on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:47:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wish we could talk about regulating how to KEEP (0+ / 0-)

          weapons: only responsible and mentally healthy Americans should be allowed to keep their well-regulated guns: unhealthy or irresponsible folk need to be forbidden to purchase a gun, and be forced to give up guns they already possess, perhaps through a remote mechanism, and after judicial review determines they are no longer competent, until an appropriate amount of time has passes for another review.

          This can be done at a local level, with Federal and State supervision of equal protection under such laws.

          It's a can of worms, but no one said regulation had to be easy or cheap: it just has to work, and be constitutional.

          The labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce. Clayton Act, Section 6.

          by Ignacio Magaloni on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:52:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Non-fanatic gun owners might get behind you (0+ / 0-)

          Safe storage laws don't inherently limit anyone's rights, and mandate what many gun owners are doing already anyway because they're prudent human beings.

      •  Agree, but often no one knew how extreme the (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wonmug, congenitalefty, jestbill

        problems were.  Usually, only in retrospect and by comparing notes does the full picture emerge.

        Many people in this world are eccentric; we must be careful to avoid being suspicious of everyone we find odd.  Identifying individuals who are deranged and potentially murderous is not a simple thing to do.

        And sometimes, questions of 'what went wrong' never are answered and forever remain a mystery.

        "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

        by 417els on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:49:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Correct. (0+ / 0-)

          Calls for mental health screening will, in practice, turn out to be bureaucratic nightmares and centers for corruption.
          You think we have a problem with indefinite detention now?

          Those who want to censor media should look up "Victorian morality."  That really didn't turn out so well.

          There is a solution to this problem.
          There are solutions for many of our problems.  My list includes a minimum national income, single payer health care, free education for three examples.  However...

           I agree with Winston Churchill: Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities."

          Some for the Glories of This World; and some Sigh for the Prophet's Paradise to come; Ah, take the Cash, and let the Credit go, Nor heed the rumble of a distant Drum!

          by jestbill on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:23:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I don't know how the problem can be solved (5+ / 0-)

      completely.

      The only way to do that would be if guns didn't exist in the first place. But they do. And people have them in their possession already. How many of the people who own guns now have the potential to snap? Who knows?

      Military-grade weapons are an excess that have no place in the hands of anyone other than the military. It's one thing to keep a gun in a drawer next to your bed, quite another having an assault rifle like the ones soldiers carry.

      Guns will never be completely banned, and nuts will find a way of getting them if they really want, but making it as miserable a process as possible for unstable individuals to lay their hands on them is a necessary prerequisite.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:07:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  laws about guns and (5+ / 0-)

      the mentally ill probably wouldn't have done anything in this case - the guns were apparently bought, legally, by the guy's mother.

      (Arming everyone isn't a solution; that would make things worse.)

      (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

      by PJEvans on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:09:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is it too much to speculate that if the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shaharazade

        assault weapons ban hadn't been allowed to expire, that the boy's mother wouldn't have been able to legally buy those extreme killing machines, that her legal gun would have been something like a revolver, and therefore less lethal?

        Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

        by jan4insight on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:30:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Didn't the killer "just" use two (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sarenth

          semi-automatic pistols, though he had two assault weapons as well?  Not that I don't support an assault weapons ban, I'm just not sure how much it would help.

          •  An Assault Weapons Ban... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DarthMeow504

            ...would not stop this from happening. This shooter could have had three, four, or more 10 round mags for each of his two pistols (60-80 rounds plus). A mag change can be made in less than 2 seconds. All those rounds could be fired quite quickly. All the time having been in compliance with the Clinton assault weapons ban. Hard to stop a determined shooter.
            A well trained shooter has an even bigger advantage; auto, semi-auto, single action revolver...doesn't matter.

            I knew she was the gal for me as soon as she laid her eyes on me. Right on me shoulder, she did. Popped the buggers right out her head, and laid em on me shoulder. She's a sweet heart, that gal.

            by glb3 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:25:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  it would help. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shaharazade

            It doesn't have to be the total solution. Just take it piece by piece.

    •  The only fail-safe option is to create a fully (9+ / 0-)

      rational, humane society where children, especially boys, are raised with a healthy, compassionate outlook. So far I think humanity has exhibited some humane tribes here and there, but on the national level it's well-nigh impossible. This nation, with its peculiar history of wide-open, "rugged individualism," wild-west-replicating violence, is finally convulsing in on itself. It may be too late.

      Those of us who are loving and rational should gather together and hang onto to one another. And perhaps create a national, grassroots movement into the future.  

      "There's a lot to be said for making people laugh. Did you know that that's all some people have? It isn't much, but it's better than nothing in this cockeyed caravan." --Joel McCrea as "Sully," in "Sullivan's Travels."

      by Wildthumb on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:11:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It took the attemped assasination of a president (10+ / 0-)

    to get the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons ban enacted by a Democratic President some 12 years after the incident.

    So basically we're screwed.......

    The 1st Amendment gives you the right to say stupid things, the 1st Amendment doesn't guarantee a paycheck to say stupid things.

    by JML9999 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:43:25 PM PST

    •  Republicans will only vote for the public good (3+ / 0-)

      when they have been affected by the problem. They were pro-gun until Brady got shot, then his family became leading gun control lobbyists.
      They were anti-stem-cell research until Reagan got dementia, then Nancy Reagan became a supporter of stem-cell research.

      They have no empathy whatsoever. That's the primary distinction between a Republican and a Democrat today.

  •  Maybe Bob Costas should run for something. (13+ / 0-)

    Governor or Senator or something. He had the courage to raise the subject in the most mach of environments -- NFL football.

    If only a few of our elected officials would be so brave.

  •  This is just so depressing (10+ / 0-)

    I actually teared up hearing this.  As desensitized as I am, I don't know if I've ever cried before from a news story.  I'm just so tired of hearing about stories like this.

    My dad is a birther. I am not.

    by mrfo on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:47:30 PM PST

  •  last night's open thread we spoke of mortality (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RUKind, kj in missouri, DeadHead

    True, last night we also spoke about death, but it was in the context of ourselves aging and reflecting upon our own mortality and those near and close to ourselves.

    It's harder to be calmly philosophical when talking about the mortality of little children.

  •  Here is the issues at hand (8+ / 0-)

    Gun control advocates ask for more control

    Gun advocates say we just need more enforcement

    The truth of the matter?

    We need both.

    We need a nationalized gun control law and a move towards adoption of modern technology that locks a gun to that owner. Biometric and RFID technology that prevents anyone other than registered owners from firing the weapons they legally own.

    In addition we need expanded mental health care across this entire nation. Who knows how many people we could catch in that net and prevent them from creation destruction and chaos.

    --Enlighten the people, generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like spirits at the dawn of day. - Thomas Jefferson--

    by idbecrazyif on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:48:59 PM PST

  •  I voted for starting a national conversation.. (12+ / 0-)

    because I want a national conversation. We in the US need a national conversation, and something, although I don't know what.

    With everyone of these episodes, my heart breaks - for the victims, for the families, for our collective nation.

    I am not a gun owner, nor a hunter. I do have sons who are hunters, one with a bow and the other with hunting rifles. I don't want to stop our hunters from hunting animals - I just want to stop the killing.

    I'm rambling, I'm sorry, but we need to do something NOW before another innocent person - child or adult - is killed. I guess the best way is to start a serious and ongoing national conversation, followed with action.

    sigh - again, apologies for being a rambling person tonight.

  •  Fact: Crime rates decrease when... What BS! (6+ / 0-)
    Fact: Crime rates decrease when the people are better armed.
    Fact; Bad people can't kill innocent people with guns, if they don't have guns in the first place.

    "We see things not as they are, but as we are." - John Milton

    by Jasonhouse on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:49:05 PM PST

  •  Cliche of cliches (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Just Bob

    That is what The New Yorker called "a national conversation."

    Couldn't be more true.

  •  So much for the "we need gunz to protect us (23+ / 0-)

    from evil oppressive gub'mint" argument:

    Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

    by jan4insight on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:50:57 PM PST

  •  The NRA and their backers are extremely powerful (17+ / 0-)

    enemies. We need an organized non-violent movement. We cannot expect our politicians to do shit without our organized collective will.

    "If you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!" (on a sign at a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans)

    by ranger995 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:51:43 PM PST

  •  If Your Sad About This (8+ / 0-)

     Just think of all the children killed by us second-hand by our weapons selling industry all around the world.

      In the Iraq-Iran war (When we supported Saddam) Iran sent human waves of youngsters at the Iraqi positions to exhaust their ammo.

    •  This is true. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ranger995, mrsgoo

      We must change our foreign culture as much as our domestic culture.

      However, I believe the change begins within our borders. To curb the violence we perpetrate on others, we must first change our behaviors domestically.

      "Growing up is for those who don't have the guts not to. Grow wise, grow loving, grow compassionate, but why grow up?" - Fiddlegirl

      by progressivist on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:54:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I thought about that WHEN it was actually... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener, DeadHead

      ...happening, just as I thought about it when U.S. arms were killing people, including children, in Vietnam.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:25:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "they" are trying to steer the meme to aspergers (9+ / 0-)

    Pro-gun folks/conservatives are trying to direct attention away from the national outrage about guns by blaming the shooter's actions on asperger's.  First saw this in the NYT, but also many other places.  

    Specious, of course.  There is no link between autism spectrum and violence!

    Dementia, you better treat me good. ~Conor Oberst "Slowly (Oh So Slowly)"

    by NotActingNaive on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:56:25 PM PST

  •  I'd need check-boxes on that poll (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mrsgoo, kj in missouri, davehouck

    There are many things that need to be done to get to a sensible gun policy. Maybe start with outlawing gun show sales.

    "Good morning, brothers Koch. I see you're doing well. If I had me a shotgun, I'd blow you straight to hell." w/apologies to R. Hunter

    by RUKind on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:59:23 PM PST

  •  An ad dug out by Mother Jones: (28+ / 0-)
    Gun ad


    As an editor there said: Subtle

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 07:59:56 PM PST

  •  Other (8+ / 0-)

    because no one of the above is enough but a few of them together are a good start.

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:03:00 PM PST

  •  Lighter subject: Anakin the two legged cat (4+ / 0-)

    (not my cat) ... mostly tail and wiggle, is having a dream ...

    You have exactly 10 seconds to change that look of disgusting pity into one of enormous respect!

    by Cartoon Peril on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:03:45 PM PST

  •  Be Sure to Check All Petitions on White House Site (0+ / 0-)

    If you go to the White House page look for "related Petitions" as well as the one mentioned above. This afternoon, there was one asking the president to set a date to discuss gun control, and it had the most signatures of the pro gun control petitions. If people sign different but related petitions, it can mean that no one petition gets to the 25,000 threshold for a response.

  •  The root of Evil (8+ / 0-)

    Listening to Randi Rhodes today, It's no wonder Mental health issues are on the rise, ie the CT Shootings today and all the others. The American Families have been torn apart by low wages and irregular work hours, parents don't know their It's kids, kids don't know their parents since their...always at work.

    "Wages were so low that often whole families were forced to work at different factories just to obtain the necessities of life. Though the oft-cited mantra of “morality and family values” may have been in the mouths of clergy, politicians, and middle/upper class Americans, it remained an unattainable dream for poor families who were forced to choose long hours at work in order to have food and shelter over spending quality time with one another."

    The poem “My Boy,” written by a pants presser named Morris Rosenfeld, is particularly heart breaking in this regard:

    “I have a little boy at home,

    A pretty little son;

    I think sometimes the world is mine

    In him, my only one.

    ‘Ere dawn my labor drives me forth;

    Tis night when I am free;

    A stranger am I to my child;

    And stranger my child to me.”

    http://www.insearchofthecity.com/... More

  •  Gun control is a losing issue (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sarenth, pravin, condorcet, DarthMeow504

    There is no firm evidence that gun control actually makes people any safer, and Republicans hate it. But sure, lets waste all our political capital on gun control instead of fixing the massive problems with literacy, infrastructure, mental health, education, food safety, pharma, wall street, basic science, transportation, global warming, jobs, immigration, civil liberties, the environment, military, lobbying, poverty, criminal justice, the media, etc.

    If you really want gun control you should just move to Mexico where guns are already basically illegal, I'm sure you'll be much safer.

  •  The sound of a bullet wound (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, ConfusedSkyes

    Here's what a bullet wound sounds like: imagine you're an eight year old girl and someone just shot you with a .223 caliber weapon.  After the slug passes through your body you will hear something that sounds like: put your tongue through your compressed lips; now, quickly retract your tongue and push air through that hole.  It will sound something like "thwuss".  That's the sound a slug going through soft flesh makes.
    I've omitted the gun noises,  which, of course, aren't really relevant.
    BTW: a slug hitting bone has a somewhat different sound, but let's keep it simple for now.

  •  The dialog must include Mental Health and... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffW, Dogs are fuzzy

    ... National ID as well as commonsense and NATIONAL gun reforms. Uniformity is going to be required, if one state can just wing it, the nutz and crooks will simply gravitate to that state, then come to ours to rob/rape/kill.

    The 2nd amendment is real, and for very real reasons. However, the Supreme Court has ruled that REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS are constitutional.

    We simply have NO mental health system. What is there is a joke, our entire society has turned its back and stuck its head in the sand.... well, the sand is shooting at us, so you better wake the fuck up and deal with it.

    The only way to make background checks work is to have biometric ID fr all, and real national background checks.

    Begin.

  •  I read about the pro gun advocates saying that (10+ / 0-)

    more guns makes for a polite society.  

    I don't want to carry a gun.  I don't want to feel like I have to carry a gun to be safe.  I don't want to be scared.

    So I won't.

    And if I am shot, I am shot.  Me carrying a gun probably won't change that.  I wouldn't be able to "draw" fast enough.  

    There are lots of other ways to protect ones self that don't require weapons.

    After the Republicans burn down the world, they will prove the Democrats did it.

    by jimraff on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:14:44 PM PST

  •  SCOTUS and the 2nd (9+ / 0-)

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

    The decision extended the court's 2008 ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller that "the Second Amendment protects a personal right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes, most notably for self-defense within the home." That decision applied only to federal laws and federal enclaves such as Washington; it was the first time the court had said there was an individual right to gun ownership rather than one related to military service.
    emphasis mine

    This interpretation of the 2nd amendment needs to be challenged. Please see Justice Stevens' dissent beginning on page 68 here:
    http://www.scotusblog.com/...

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:20:19 PM PST

  •  What The Heck Do You Expect? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    happymisanthropy

     In a country that watched "SHOCK AND AWE" live on TV like a damn football game.

  •  Well said MB. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    suesue, Paulie200

    "God bless us, every one!" ~ T. Tim

    by jwinIL14 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:21:28 PM PST

  •  I would like to say (14+ / 0-)

    thank you to all the union thugs who selfishly saved children's lives today.

    The Republican Party is now the sworn enemy of the United States of America.

    Listen to All Over The Place - we play all kinds of music!

    by TheGreatLeapForward on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:21:42 PM PST

  •  My earliest proposal for a way forward... (12+ / 0-)

    I think today was the day where the straw broke the camels back and politicians will now see something to gain from pursuing gun control laws. The NRA will fight back but I don't know if their influence will be as strong after today.

    My first thought is I'm pretty conscious about the unintended consequence of heavy gun control. I'm not convinced it will be a magic wand solution that will get rid of all guns in the country, I think it would lead to a black market with dire effects of it's own. Plus, it could take years before the constitutional challenges are decided in the courts.

     I also think we need a vast expansion of mental health services in the country. We need to get to the bottom of what is causing all these young men to snap, and support their mental fortitude to realize that they can be more powerful if they choose to not take the lives of innocent, and not to take their own.

     So, knee jerk proposal is a bullet tax that (likely indirectly) supports the expansion of mental health/family counseling clinics across the country.

     Roughly 5.5 Billion rounds of ammo is produced in the country each year.
      If they charged a dime tax on each bullet, that would bring in 560 Million dollars.
     That would be enough to fund around 10-12,000 mental/family counseling support personnel.
    It would give each county in the US an average of 3-4 of them.
    Tax revenue left over could go to support gun buy back programs.

     Lots to flesh out, and I'll be the first to say the devil is in the details. If a dime a bullet is too much than a simple equation is:
     Nickel tax = 5,000 new mental health practitioners
     Penny tax = 1,000 new mental health practitioners .

     Last but not least, bringing this issue around to the issue of personal choice and responsibility, I feel content knowing my home protection choices of door locks and Great Dane will never be able to be used to kill innocent school children.

    •  great comment. hope it get traction. /nt (4+ / 0-)

      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

      by kj in missouri on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:35:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thank you, I might turn it into a diary/letter to (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kj in missouri

        my congressman. Still thinking about all the ins and outs and looking forward to hearing what others think about it.

        •  please do. it's these common sense (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener

          a + b = c  concrete ideas that i think push us all though the abstract and into solutions that we can envision and present to our officials to consider.

          i'm heading offline but will come back tomorrow to see if there is any discussion here.  if you decide to diary, would you please leave a link here?     thanks!

          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

          by kj in missouri on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:24:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I am with you except for gun buy-back... (0+ / 0-)

      ...programs. They're worthless and most wind up paying good money for crap firearms. In my more cynical moments, I think the sellers use what they get paid to make a down payment on a better gun.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:18:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You could be right... (0+ / 0-)

        it would be interesting to see if there's a correlation between the inception of a gun buy back program and increased gun sales in the region.

         The main basis of my support for them is that I know there are individuals who inherent guns that have no interest in using them, the liability of having them, and the hesitance of selling them to a stranger.

    •  Recommended, and I compliment you too (0+ / 0-)

      but can't help pointing out that dogs do kill innocent children and are less controllable than guns.

      Which is not strictly on topic, since your point was that you'll never have a disturbed relative steal your Great Dane and carry it to school to perpetrate a massacre. But I'd hate to encourage anyone to get a protection dog without TONS of prior thought.

      •  Yes, dogs can and do attack children... no doubt (0+ / 0-)

        But not all dog breeds are the same. I know the issue is a touchy one for some but Pit Bulls and Rottweilers account for 70% to 80% of attacks. Supporters say the onus falls on the owners and not the dogs, but I'm not convinced. I know different levels in domestication in animals have led to different levels of stress-related responses (and let's not beat around the bush, children can be stressful to dogs, I was 8 once...).

        But one of the real reasons dogs are so revered as pets is they have for generations been domesticated to the level that they don't viciously attack in response to stress, like other animals do (remember all the pet chimp related attacks, for example...). My feeling is that different breeds of dog have different fight/flight instincts and there is evidence in the statistics. My Dane (a breed also known as the "Gentle Giant") would have a tremendous amount of tolerance for a child bothering it, and would sooner try to hide than attack if he had no tolerance left.

         Any dog though, even a Chihuahua or Shih Tzu, is great home protection, because they can sense noises and alert the owner to be aware that something could be wrong.

  •  Poll: Other... (5+ / 0-)

    Perhaps the good ole USA could attend to those who suffer here in the homeland before killing innocents abroad--children, women, elders--with smart drones.  

    Perhaps WE should provide a good example.

    "Truth and love will overcome lies and hatred.” Vaclav Havel

    by dharmasyd on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:23:52 PM PST

  •  Take Back the Second Amendment (5+ / 0-)

    The gun cult uses the Second Amendment to legitimize their gun lust.  We shouldn't allow them that advantage.  The Second Amendment never was intended to allow personal possession of guns and any gun debate we have should make that point.  Rational Americans have no obligation to respect "constitutional rights" the gun cult don't have.

    Building a better America by hammering the Right

    by Joe Steel on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:25:06 PM PST

    •  Just repeal the 2nd amendment (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jan4insight

      SCOTUS has foreclosed any other remedy.

      •  That remains to be seen. (0+ / 0-)

        The Second Amendment has been perverted by the gun cult to support their gun lust. A reawakened gun control debate very well might find it means something else entirely. Recall, it did not make gun possession a constitutional right until just a few years ago when the Supreme Court said it did. As we have come to see, though, the majority of this Court are little more than stooges for right wing ideologues. In a few years that could change.

        Note also, John Roberts willingness to change his position on PPACA to suit the political mood of the country.  Had he voted with the rest of the conservatives, he would have seriously endangered the integrity of the Court.  A gun control debate focused on redefining the Second Amendment could have the same effect on his, or another justice's, opinion in a future case.

        Building a better America by hammering the Right

        by Joe Steel on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:50:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Original intent (0+ / 0-)

      We've got a different country now with different needs, we can and should make laws to address the world of today. But if you want to talk original intent, check out Joyce Lee Malcolm's 1996 book tracing the centuries of English law that led up to the 2d. Amendment.

      •  The Nature of the Militia (0+ / 0-)

        The Second Amendment is concerned with ensuring the security of the country is in the hands of a militia.  It's meaning, then, rests on the understanding of the word "militia."  Is a militia to be understood as a bunch of guys with their own guns, as the NRA would like us to believe, or is a "militia" an army of common citizens as commentators such as Alexander Hamilton believed?

        Building a better America by hammering the Right

        by Joe Steel on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:56:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  643,647 registered users on dKos now. (6+ / 0-)

    Here are the 10 newest registered users on dKos.  Hope to see their comments and diaries here soon!  (If they're not all spammers.)

    shnaa
    petavegan
    sunriselawn (user #643,640: spammer)
    sundaystage3
    madmax79
    Brandyjack
    sweaty
    Neal Page
    playlarch66
    meister


    And since our society is obsessed with numbers that end in a lot of zeros as milestones, here's a special shoutout to users:
    #643,500: alfredo123
    #643,600: frstnoel

    We've added 156 more users in the last 24 hours.  This is a continuation going back to May where we've been absolutely flooded with new users.  I'm pretty sure almost all of these new users are spammers or bots.  While the rate had been getting faster, it seems they suddenly started slowing down right when Hurricane Sandy hit.  It slowed down to under 1,000 new users in a 24-hour period, and now we're back down to somewhat over 100 new users every 24 hours or so.  What were they planning?


    And for your Diary Rescue music pleasure, with the horrific massacre in Connecticut, here's Anne Murray's "A Little Good News" from 1983, and it rings just as true today.

    •  Thanks, BruinKid (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BruinKid, OLinda

      I appreciate the "normalcy" your dutifully-posted comment provides.

      Rough day. :(




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:43:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Last summer we went to the Military Tattoo in (0+ / 0-)

      Edinburgh, Scotland.  For those of you who don't know it, it is basically an outdoor concert of military bands from around the world.  They play all sorts of music, even the theme from Harry Potter.

      When I was sending home the pictures, my lead off comment was:  Wouldn't it be great if all our military forces had to do was entertain us?  

      I firmly believe that as long as we are a culture that thinks military intervention is the answer to diplomatic problems, we will never face, change, or eradicate the gun violence problem we have at home.  Because the only answer we, collectively as a society, believe in is more violence.  It doesn't work.  I do not know which came first, but I suspect it was the guns at home that drove the guns everywhere solution.

      We must start having a rational, intelligent discussion.  The middle ground is out there (and all the suggestions here are good and necessary); but we aren't going to get there ranting and raving from our ideological soap boxes.  We need to organize and work from the bottom up.  The election showed us we could.  Now we need to use those lessons for more change.

      "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." - George Carlin

      by Most Awesome Nana on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:41:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, if only baby jesus had been at the school (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LinSea, middleagedhousewife

    handing out bullet proof vests and semi automatic glocks to the kids!

    Huckabee: Schools "Become A Place Of Carnage" When "We Systematically Remove God"

    http://mediamatters.org/...

    Chicago--Proud Home of the 1907-08 World Series Champion Chicago Cubs

    by Jeff Y on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:32:39 PM PST

  •  Prohibition doesn't work. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DarthMeow504

    I think the far left and the far right should cut a deal. Legalized marijuana in exchange for a few looser gun laws. Most of the crazies would start getting high on legalized marijuana and be too stoned to want to go out and shoot people. It’s the perfect deal (because prohibition has never/will never work anyway).

  •  I've had a speech in my head ever since I heard (8+ / 0-)

    And so far, the meme that is making me the most enraged is the one that says "This is not the time to talk about gun control; have some respect for the children." It's Matthew Modine's speech from And The Band Played On, when he's told by the FDA that it's not cost-effective (i.e. not appropriate) to try to find a test for HIV.

    How many hemophiliacs have to die before it'll be cost effective for you people to do something about it? A hundred? A thousand? Give us a number so we won't annoy you until the amount of money you start losing on LAWSUITS makes it PROFITABLE for you to save people than to kill them!
    Here's my question, along the same lines:

    How many children have to die before it'll be appropriate for us to talk about it? A hundred? A thousand? Give me a number so we won't annoy you until the number of people that are murdered by guns every year becomes important enough that you can start focusing on people's right to LIVE, instead of people's right to own machinery that has, AS ITS SOLE PURPOSE, the REMOVAL of that right from other human beings!

    I mean, for god's sake, if your biggest worry on hearing this news was that someone might take away your guns, your priorities are a) evil and b) really fucked up.

    "Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism." - Hubert Humphrey

    by Killer of Sacred Cows on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:37:41 PM PST

  •  Well, how about (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mr Robert

    appointing an ATF head?

    How about a Democrat for SecDef and a moderate Republican to head the ATF?  Would that be a good start?

    It's been a hundred years, isn't it time we stopped blaming Captain Smith for sinking the Titanic?

    by happymisanthropy on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:38:54 PM PST

  •  This tweet contains a link to the current (4+ / 0-)

    list of all Congress member who've received donations from the NRA. Sounds like a good place to start making your displeasure known:

    Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

    by jan4insight on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:39:19 PM PST

  •  Violence as entertainment (0+ / 0-)

    Our movies and TV shows are full of violence as entertainment. Even the "Good Guys" are allowed to shoot and kill indiscriminately on the cop shows. Surely our young people who have watched hundreds of deaths for entertainment are affected. So the ones who are "not right" in the head act out just as they've been taught.

  •  When Mike Huckabee (0+ / 0-)

    gets to Hell, he should get Adam Lanza as a cell mate.

    Note that I said.....WHEN.

    I'm not crazy, I've just been in a very bad mood for 40 years!

    by liberalagogo on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:41:52 PM PST

    •  According to Dante, (0+ / 0-)

      Murderers only go to the seventh circle of hell. Corrupt politicians and hypocrites go to the eight.

      Republicans believe you need an ID to vote but you can donate millions to any candidate completely anonymously. (h/t jbou)

      by Calouste on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:24:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I was called a fascist today... (6+ / 0-)

    by my Ron Paul friend (yeah, I know, I know) for suggesting there be background checks.  He began with this argument:

    Spoons and forks don't make people fat. Lack of exercise, poor nutrition, and the over-consumption of crappy food makes people fat. Cars don't cause car accident. Bad drivers who drive too fast with their eyes on their cell phones cause car accidents. Guns don't cause school shootings. Crazy people with emotional problems who are on Prozac and have watched one too many Rambo movies and played one too many shoot'em up video games, cause school shootings. Banning guns won't lower the amount of school shootings that happen. Criminals who don't follow the law will get the guns they want no matter what the law says. Even if there were no more guns on the planet, a crazy guy could get a sword and hack people up instead of using a gun. The problem is crazy people in a degenerate society, not gun laws.
    I wasn't going to comment, until someone else responded about how the same thing happened in China today.  All I did was point out none of those children died.  That alone was enough to set him off, by asking me if I've ever fired a gun.  Of course, this is meant to distract from the argument.  Finally, he explained:
    Because it just goes to show that most people who haven't actually used a firearm are the ones who are usually the most against it. And I'm pretty sure you haven't. So I'm just exposing the realities of how our society works. [BruinKid] has a personal emotional opinion, therefore he should go lobby government and have his goons in the government violently enforce it on millions of peaceful people.
    OK, game on.
    Me: And I have a lot of friends who HAVE used firearms who are just as against it. LOL, if you're only allowed to talk about something only after experiencing it firsthand, no one who wasn't alive in 1832 should be allowed to talk about the gold standard. And most Americans agree with me on SENSIBLE restrictions.

    Him: I don't agree that you have the right to violently take away something that I use for self defense. And yes, it has everything to do with it because I didn't realize the value of a firearm until I actually used one. I don't care about your friends. What you do isn't talk about something. What you do is take a personal emotional belief and try to turn it into a coercive law that takes away from the rights of free individuals. I know you hate freedom. But don't take away MY right to freedom.

    How hard is it? STOP IMPOSING YOUR PERSONAL EMOTIONAL OPINIONS ON ME THROUGH VIOLENCE AND COERCION. Fascism is alive and well in America. How do you ban guns? More laws. what do more laws do? Create more criminals. I am free. If I want a gun, I should be able to have one. Who are you to tell me I can't have the right to defend myself? Or who are you to tell me how I can or cannot defend myself? Is this not a huge societal problem that we have people acting like kings with their personal opinions and attempting to impose their beliefs on entire populations...?

    Me: How is passing a background check or not letting people diagnosed as mentally ill from buying them taking them away from YOU?? Unless you can't actually pass a background check.......... You're setting up a straw man by PRETENDING I'm arguing for banning guns, which is nowhere near what I'm proposing, and the above chart shows almost nobody in America wants that either.

    Oh, and your earlier comment "in every area where there is strict gun control, things like this happens and in every area where there isn’t strict gun control, the exact opposite happens" is a debunked LIE. Look at Japan. Or go back a few months when I responded to another post of yours about Australian crime rates with the actual FACTS, after you reblogged someone else's MADE UP LIES about the numbers there and pretended they were real. They weren't, and you were trying to lie to all of your friends to push your agenda.

    Him: What are "sensible restrictions" to you? Or is it my fault that you said sensible restrictions and expected me to know what you meant then made the claim that I'm setting up a straw man based off your usual claims that we need more laws to fix problems?

    Me: Look at the chart above. How about just those 4 measures that SIXTY PERCENT OR MORE of Americans support? Or is what the people want no longer important in a democracy?

    Him: Hey, was I talking about Japan or Australia? No. I'm talking about the freest nation humanity has ever seen (far from freedom but still closer than any other government)... America.
    Hey, I remember that debate, you stopped responding...Like you always do when you get owned. So I'll just keep talking till you continue your already circular arguments that you dodge when asked any real question that would debunk your fascist way of thinking.

    Me: Oh, and not even in other countries, look at the 50 states. States with more gun control laws DO have fewer gun-related deaths. There IS a positive correlation, so again, what you said is simply WRONG.

    Him: Yeah, hey, this was a Constitutional Republic. Not a 50% +1 is right. Hey, the Nazis had the majority too. Guess they were right. Just because you have the majority doesn't mean it's right. And if I'm wrong, which I'm not, the difference between me and you is that you believe that you and your majority of sheep should go force others to do what you want because you have 50% +1...Yeah, that makes it legit. A Republic is supposed to represent the minority against the TYRANNICAL majority which is the exact mentality you project. The fascist what I say goes mentality.

    Me: YOU brought up Australia a few months ago in another post. Don't think I forgot about that, even when you couldn't respond after I did the research and posted the actual facts about gun crime in that country. And YOU were the one making the claim that places with "strict gun control" have more gun deaths, so I brought up Japan to show you're WRONG there as well.

    You can have your own opinions, but you cannot MAKE SHIT UP ABOUT GUN DEATHS.

    Him: LOL, you're the one who banters about your bull shit then goes in hiding for another few months until you deem it necessary to come back out of your hole and write some more bull shit...Then, you'll get owned again because of your fascist views and stop commenting like you always do...Just to come back again in another few months on a thread where you feel like you have some backing and try to push your opinions again with your government statistics and then disappear. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    Me: And what about representing a majority against a tyrannical minority, like you see in so many dictatorships and plutocracies? Like it or not, we elected our leaders with not even a majority, but with just a plurality state by state. And over 90% of Americans want background checks. Are you seriously telling me you're AGAINST that??

    Him: Problem is this: Do we need more laws? Answer is this: No. How do you fix societal problems? NOT laws. You believe that the government is good and great and is the savior of the world. Similar to an Obama line of thought. He will push fascist agendas in whatever he thinks is right and support the mass murder of children across the globe, but be against people at home using weapons 1/10000 of the power.

    And there is a process to obtain firearms...And that 90% statistic is bull shit.

    Me: No, because it's useless arguing with an ideologue. When you have mathematically proven something to someone, and they still don't get it, at some point, you're just wasting your breath. I've given you the numbers, and yet you don't care about them. If you don't want laws, just go move to Somalia already. Then you'll have your libertarian paradise with all the guns you want.

    Him: Do you really think MORE gun control is going to fix the problem? Clearly all the gun control in the past hasn't solved these problems? This is a very simple issue. People will get guns regardless. More laws on guns will not help stop guns. Just like more drug laws don't stop drugs. If you want to shift society, you have to show them that your ideas are worth accepting. Not going to the government and saying THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE IS RIGHT SO I'M GOING TO FORCE IT ON ALL OF YOU!!!!

    hahaha you think it's useless arguing with an ideologue because your ideology is so weak and violent that the only way you can push your ideology is through the force of government. You have such good ideas that instead of showing society why it is right, you have to go to government and force them to do it. The debate on guns IS an ideological one.

    Me: Again, you're just wrong. Why is it so difficult to understand that if you make it harder for bad guys to get guns, SOME actually either give up, or get something less lethal. It WORKS in other countries. Oh look, here's Israel after they stopped letting soldiers take guns with them back home. Suicides dropped by 60%. Gee, I wonder why. Anyway, I'm done with this post. I've posted the facts. You keep on with your conspiracy theories.

    Him: Yeah, the kids in Pakistan that Obama massacred are still dead too. But Sean supports that 100%.

    Me: Sigh... you know I don't, but you keep lying about that. OK, now I'm done with this.

    Him: You don't? Then why support a mass murderer named Obama? If you vote for him, you support him. And you are #1 Obama supporter.

    (I left the conversation by this point.  This was to another person in the thread.)

    I just don't know when [BruinKid] will get up and leave then come back later in a few months. Looks like he already did. Yes, facts. I am free. If you try to take my right to self-defense away from me, I am not free and will defend my freedom. Simple. I'm such an ideologue. Yes. You aren't an ideologue at all, [BruinKid]. You believe government is good and great and that they should do everything. That's not ideological at all lmao

    I'd prefer you over [BruinKid]. He's a fascist sympathizer and the states most profound goon. The one who supports the state no matter what they do. Even if it means mass murder. They don't support it...But they support it...

    There's over 280 comments there now, and I left before #100.  Geez.
    •  You're my newest hero. :) /nt (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      BruinKid, middleagedhousewife




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:22:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This isn't a day for any mirth... (5+ / 0-)

      ...but I have to say this brought a big smile to my lips. What a great answer you made that I underlined:

      Me: And I have a lot of friends who HAVE used firearms who are just as against it. LOL, if you're only allowed to talk about something only after experiencing it firsthand, no one who wasn't alive in 1832 should be allowed to talk about the gold standard. And most Americans agree with me on SENSIBLE restrictions.
      Slam dunk.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:14:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, that's a winner (0+ / 0-)

        There was, however, a little truth in the twit's comments.

        Going to the range, renting a gun, and trying to hit a target does brush away some myths. There's no magical intoxicating sense of power, just a sensation like the blender hitting the side of the bowl, the wary respect you would give to a band saw, and a constant struggle to aim precisely.

        It's good to try to understand a minority group's experiences.

        If you're a gun control advocate and worried that the experience might undermine your position, then fear not: you can always renew your fear of gun owners by listening to the Fat Guy Leaning Against The Gun Shop Counter for a while.

        •  As a gun-owner, I've met plenty of others... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Denise Oliver Velez

          ...who give me reason to fear and others who I would trust with my life. The former include the guy at the L.A. shooting range who I chewed out for teaching what I took to be his teenaged son how to shoot. He was giving "safety" instructions while absent-mindedly pointing the muzzle of his pistol at the kid's belly. He was pissed at me but nearly as pissed as I was at him.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:36:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  There's no shadow in this valley of death. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, LinSea

    It's horribly real.
    There are newly 26 souls gone to other side,; 18 of them, babies. And for what? The refusal to amend a 200+ year-old amendment that lost it's relevance over a hundred years ago.
    Praise the, Lord and pass the ammunition? It's high time to skip the ammo and pass some sanity, at long last.

    Fuck Big Brother...from now on, WE'RE watching.

    by franklyn on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:45:17 PM PST

  •  I wish I could share (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, LinSea, DeadHead, Gary in NY

    the righteous rants from my 14 year old's Facebook page. Holy shit, these kids know what needs to happen to stop the violence. Hurry and grow up kids! We are counting on you!

    I'm pretty tired of being told what I care about.

    by hulibow on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:48:00 PM PST

  •  Petition signed nt (0+ / 0-)

    I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
    but I fear we will remain Democrats.

    by twigg on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:49:43 PM PST

  •  Unglamourizing guns (5+ / 0-)

    I'm in favor of moderate gun control, against further liberalizing of gun laws.

    But the real problem is the sacred place that guns have in our society. I say sacred because when you value your guns more than innocent children it doesn't get more untouchable than that. I had a horrible thought, that it's not all that different than the human sacrifice the Aztecs practiced. They did it explicitly, we do it implicitly by refusing to have an objective discussion about this. It's not so much the laws but the way the debate is invested with so much emotion.

    In my personal opinion a lot of people in this country have an exaggerated opinion of the usefulness of guns and emotional investment in seeing (and getting others to see) guns as cool and rebellious. The whole notion that it's a political statement to ostentatiously have big guns or carry a gun around, like it makes them a better person. A lot of people think that. Guns are what they are, neither inherently good or bad, I wish we would not invest them with all of this spiritual significance. They're a tool and a potential weapon, but there's nothing magical about them. I honestly think that if people saw guns like they saw everything else, in a more objective way, the entire gun control debate would be unnecessary because we as a society would just pass whatever makes the most sense and no one would object. And if people stopped seeing guns as cool or attractive or glamorous and saw them as unattractive, ugly objects, and voluntarily opt out of them, that would do more than any law to reduce the number of guns out there and the chance for gun violence.

    Meanwhile those who really do have a good use for guns would have to contend with less crap from all the people who shouldn't have but do and give all gun owners a bad name. That's not my call to make, since I was never a part of that culture to begin with. But if I were a gun owner I would want a few people as possible to have them, only the ones who actually have a good reason to have them, use them regularly and know a great deal about them. Not your average person on the street.

    "It is, it seems, politically impossible to organize expenditure on the scale necessary to prove my case -- except in war conditions."--JM Keynes, 1940

    by randomfacts on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:52:43 PM PST

  •  Notice all the wild, erroneous reports in the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight, smileycreek

    beginning about this incident, replicating what happens, in a parallel fashion, in the "fog of war"?

    I had the thought today--amongst tons of others--that Susan Rice also may have had some erroneous reports about Benghazi from the get-go, but she lost a potential job over it.

    Anybody else see that parallel? I do fully, and it's outrageous.

    "There's a lot to be said for making people laugh. Did you know that that's all some people have? It isn't much, but it's better than nothing in this cockeyed caravan." --Joel McCrea as "Sully," in "Sullivan's Travels."

    by Wildthumb on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:53:23 PM PST

  •  Pols backed by NRA are also backed by industry. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight

    We need a movement to pressure business to stop supporting politicians backed by the NRA. I am serious. We need a movement and we can look right at insurance, banks, consumer products, all of the other lobbyists that support these politicians backed by the NRA.

  •  The balls to call em' what they are- (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jan4insight

    "If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns."--Cheryl Wheeler

    by lyvwyr101 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:56:37 PM PST

  •  New info, fwiw, shooter's mom not connected (4+ / 0-)

    to the school (it's at the very end of the linked article):

    Handmade holiday gifts from Jan4insight on Zibbet. Get 10%off everytime with coupon code KOSSACK.

    by jan4insight on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:57:09 PM PST

  •  New non-school shooting diary (8+ / 0-)

    “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” ~ John Kenneth Galbraith

    by Lefty Coaster on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 08:59:02 PM PST

    •  2400? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cany

      Geez, they'll have to use the Mariners' stadium for the next hearings! I've never see or heard of that kind of attendance at an environmental permit hearing, in my 26 years of participation.

       Sometimes its just me and the company lawyers.

  •  trigger locks (0+ / 0-)

    Isn't there a technology that locks triggers except for the gun owner?  As appalled as I am, most of the solutions suggested would not address the current shooter's actions, who apparently swiped his mom's legally purchased guns.

  •  Repeal Second Amendment (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    VelvetElvis, squarewheel, Mr Robert

    Just as we outlawed slavery, we should outlaw guns except for licensed hunters and authorized law enforcement.  I know this sounds draconian, but I fail to see how we are a better society because of this Amendment.

    "Hidden in the idea of radical openness is an allegiance to machines instead of people." - Jaron Lanier

    by FDRDemocrat on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:09:15 PM PST

    •  Won't happen for a long time, if it ever does. (0+ / 0-)

      I say chip away at it where we can, just as gradually the population came around to supporting gay causes.

      They did this surprisingly quickly, by the way. Surprisingly quickly.

      "There's a lot to be said for making people laugh. Did you know that that's all some people have? It isn't much, but it's better than nothing in this cockeyed caravan." --Joel McCrea as "Sully," in "Sullivan's Travels."

      by Wildthumb on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:18:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I say go balls to the wall and push for it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mr Robert

        It will move the overton window in a big way and make common sense gun regulations seem reasonable to pretty much everyone.

        Praxis: Bold as Love

        by VelvetElvis on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:05:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not enough balls yet. I think this will take two (0+ / 0-)

          or three generations. Too many in the country will defend
          their guns and their "freedom" and the "American Way."

          And we're all on different wavelengths. I think climate change is THE immediate issue. (You may, too.)

          "There's a lot to be said for making people laugh. Did you know that that's all some people have? It isn't much, but it's better than nothing in this cockeyed caravan." --Joel McCrea as "Sully," in "Sullivan's Travels."

          by Wildthumb on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 10:45:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •   there's guns, but it's more than just guns (0+ / 0-)

    hell, you can never draw a solid , direct causal relationship  between these things.
    Ok, it's the guns and the fact that anyone can get a crazy high capacity gun, from  a relative's closet  to a gun shop..BTW there are more gunshops than Starbucks here.
    but it is also the disconnect, the glorification and saturation of violence.
    anyone seen movie previews lately? the assault on the senses , the glorious ballet of murder and violence that is now so immediate, so loud so all encompassing...to enter into that world, to saturate your being in that world... it is not healthy..no way is it healthy...it has gone WAY off the deep end in the last few years. and the games too..they are hi def fucked up and there's no way you can look at them objectively and say , yeah, i want my kid in THAT world. So why can't our culture, our parents, our entertainment industry pull  back from that? who's been the babysitter for these kids???? movie killing games.  computer killing games. there is no empathy, there is only a crop of little sociopaths , or angry jilted men with easy access to guns. great.
    the there is the bizarre thing we call mental health care in this country. plenty o drugs available, but have you ever seen what kind of treatment an adolescent gets for ,say, schizophrenia? drugs and turn em out on the street. no such thing as an inpatient facility anymore, or even a consistent doc.
    then there is the online culture of gun porn and killing porn and revenge porn and patriot porn to suck you down even more...
    and the cacophany that says we need even more guns, arm the teachers, get more guns...
    no i cannot draw a simple straight line from one to the other and say a law will solve everything, it won't. but
    a community can start something, and a people can say we have had enough. i do not want to confiscate every gun in the country, but when any angry person , or unbalanced person, or really any person at all can order an arsenal online and the bulletproof gear to go with it...it is just sick.
    finally guns are also for fear. ask any woman who has split up from an angry man (reverse the sexes if you like) who owns a gun, knows the implicit threat...women and family members are the primary victims of murder with weapons and weapons are everywhere.  
    this event strikes at the ugly , terrifying heart of the matter, but it lurks like a bad stink in our whole culture.

  •  We need to start with language (4+ / 0-)

    "Gun rights" should be eliminated from our vocabulary.

    Mass murder is a public health/civil rights matter. Those babies had a right to life which trumps any person's right to carry a military assault weapon.

    Let's start talking about a right to live without fear of mass murder.

    “The quality of owning freezes you forever in "I," and cuts you off forever from the "we.” ― John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath

    by Miss Pip on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:40:45 PM PST

  •  Their Happiness... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FogCityJohn

    ...is killing us.

    Bang, bang, shoot, shoot.

    I knew she was the gal for me as soon as she laid her eyes on me. Right on me shoulder, she did. Popped the buggers right out her head, and laid em on me shoulder. She's a sweet heart, that gal.

    by glb3 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 09:52:24 PM PST

  •  Got lost in the petition site for a while (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    condorcet, Oh Mary Oh

    Glad to know this petition is in the company of "Ale to the Chief" White House beer recipe petition and another to begin construction of a Death Star by 2016 with over 38,000 signatures. And the confederate states want to secede. Can we just float them out into the Carribean?

    A little levity in the petitions parousal didn't hurt me.

    I hope the President follows up with his call to action on gun violence and lets the budget drama subside.

  •  NRA House Candidate Questionnaire - Check it out (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    condorcet

    Look at the questionnaire that the NRA requires candidates seeking their support to fill out:

    NRA US House Candidate Questionnaire

  •  I had enough (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LilithGardener, Oh Mary Oh

    Where do I go to start actually making a difference?  All I hear from the Republicans is to solve gun violence, give everyone a gun.  It is like trying to prevent forest fires by soaking all the trees in gasoline and hope no one is stupid enough to light a match.

    •  At the local level - (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Oh Mary Oh

      City council or county government, state representatives, district representatives, Senators.

      Here in New York we have made some progress with reasonable gun regulations. The residents, businesses, and property owners demanded regulations and better enforcement.

  •  Misplaced Outrage (0+ / 0-)

    People killed in mass shootings per year in US...let's say 100

    People killed by drunk drivers per year in US...right around 11,000 (including lots of elementary school kids).

    This would be a much simpler problem to solve with much greater benefit than pissing away outrage against rights guaranteed by the US Constitution.

    So, how do we go about saving 11,000 murdered victims each year? How about adopting a "1 strike and you're out" policy (as in losing ability to drive for 5 years) upon first DWI conviction instead of cutting people like Lindsay Lohan slack until they finally end up killing someone. Ever notice when reading stories about drunk drivers killing others that there is almost always a string of previous arrests/convictions in their record?

  •  I am interesting in learning more about the family (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mr Robert, middleagedhousewife

    dynamic in this incident.  It struck me as really odd that:

    Here is a nice suburban town and the kindergarden teacher keeps a registered Glock and Sig 9mm pistol and a .223 rifle (some variant of the black rifle, which in its original incarnation of full automatic or three shot burst fire is essentially a military weapon) in a place where her son, who has been described as having "mental problems" can gain access to them.

    And where did all that ammunition come from.  In Connecticut, they press has been saying all day that you have to be 21 to purchase a weapon.  Do you also have to be 21 to buy ammo?  

    What kindergarden teacher has weapons like these sitting around the house?  Why?   Personal protection?  The person she ended up needing protection from was her crazy son.  What need did she have for all this firepower?  Did she see herself as Mrs. Rambo?  Will her estate be liable for having these weapons registered to her in a condition where her crazy son could have access to them to use them in the manner that he did?

    As I said, this entire situation seems somewhat odd.  It makes you think about what type of firepower your suburban neighbors may have sitting in the closet ready to be picked up by their excitable sons as they start out on their next killing spree?  

    Connecticut is starting to become a fertile venue for these sorts of mass killings over the last few years.  A few years ago, a disgruntled employee shot up the State Lottery Office there killing several people.  Then, a few years ago, another disgruntled employee shot up a beer distributorship in Manchester CT, with the loss over many more lives.  And now this.  

    And it feels like I'm livin'in the wasteland of the free ~ Iris DeMent, 1996

    by MrJersey on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:32:02 PM PST

    •  Let's Talk About Kevin (0+ / 0-)

      my diarydeals with similarities to the movie. I wouldnt  be shocked if this moron watched the movie on his cable (aired very recently) and felt like recreating it since he seems very similar to the son in the movie.

  •  It not all just about guns. (0+ / 0-)

    When my oldest child started school it was common for parents to just walk into the classroom to pick them up for an appt. or anything else. After Columbine things changed and increasingly parents were asked to go to the office to sign out their child. At our school the policy was never vigorously enforced and parents still often walked around freely on the campus. I expect that the days of allowing people free access to American schools will now end, and I will support the change.

    Henceforth I ask not good fortune. I myself am good fortune. Walt Whitman

    by Sacramento Dem on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:32:09 PM PST

    •  So we sacrifice our way of life for 200 deaths? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sarenth

      Why not restrict driving more seriously and have checkpoints to check on drivers, ban cellphones in cars, ban any kind of alcohol consumption because doing so will reduce deaths.

      Seriously, why not give up all our freedoms  because we can sure save a lot more than 200 deaths if we curb all our freedoms.

  •  I say confiscate and melt them all down n/t (0+ / 0-)

    The only trouble with retirement is...I never get a day off!

    by Mr Robert on Fri Dec 14, 2012 at 11:33:43 PM PST

  •  Wait a day before you focus the attacks on the NRA (0+ / 0-)

    I put out a diary talking about how this incident reminded me a lot about the movie Lets Talk About Kevin in which a guy doesn't use guns, but a bow and arrow to go after ONE of his parents, his sister, and kids at his school.

    There may be a relevant gun control issue at stake here. But it could be to point to the fact that this kid could very possibly have faked his mother's identity before getting the guns. So while some of you may go to the extreme of wanting all guns banned, there are some of us who want to attack the NRA on more realistic grounds like "what is wrong with identity based screening with some basic situational simulations just like you would in a defensive driving course". The identity based screening would avoid situations where a disturbed kid can use his parents money to get guns in case he thinks he will fail the psych screening on a personal evel.

  •  Did the son fake mom's identity to buy guns? (0+ / 0-)

    According to CNN, the semi automatic had to be grandfathered in if purchased before 1993. So what the hell is the mother thinking not securing such weapons in a place where there is no chance an obviously disturbed kid doesnt get access to them? '

  •  Something to converse about (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DarthMeow504

    A dear friend was alone in the laundromat when someone almost a foot taller blocked the entrance and announced that he was going to rape her.

    Would anyone begrudge her the option of a weapon?

    Pepper spray might well have worked, but nobody runs away when they see a can of pepper spray.

    A stun gun would have required being with reach of him. Bad, bad.

    (Happy ending, by the way. Have you ever seen a Siamese cat chase off a dog? She instantly went to full berserker mode and he fled in terror. This, however, is not the sort of outcome you can count on.)

  •  Night Owl thread for sure... (3+ / 0-)

    It's past 3:00 AM and I can't even sleep over this. I tried going to bed, but just can't get this out of my mind.

    What's worst, is so many in this country still think the answer is more guns.  Even after this.

  •  Some combination of these: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    ... would be good:

        Pass more effective laws to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous, mentally unstable individuals.

        Outlaw high-capacity magazines for semi-automatic handguns and rifles.

        Restore the ban on private possession of semi-automatic civilian versions of military assault rifles.

        Ban private possession of semi-automatic handguns.

    In lieu of that sensible combination, and for the sake of the poll only, I'll go with Restore the ban on private possession of semi-automatic civilian versions of military assault rifles as a starting point, but keep in mind that guns do need to be kept out of the hands of mentally unstable individuals.

    If not now..., When...?

    I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

    by NonnyO on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 12:39:41 AM PST

  •  I hate to say it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    delver rootnose
    I'm starting to warm up to this Mayan Doomsday thing.
    I was think the same thing today.  Maybe the Mayans are right.  
  •  the sympathies and condolences... (0+ / 0-)

    ....of politicians who have done nothing to help stop gun violence are a meaningless insult to those harmed by guns.

    We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

    by delver rootnose on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 01:29:05 AM PST

  •  We cannot allow the NRA to stifle this discussion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DeadHead, Oh Mary Oh

    A misinterpretation of the Second Amendment has trumped the First Amendment and we as a nation are not allowed to discuss gun violence. The NRA has traitorously silenced the first and primary freedoms of a free State delineated in the First Amendment.

  •  Armed Teachers (0+ / 0-)

    I had heard one instance already online where someone was wanting to do that as a reaction to this attack in Connecticut. I found it to be a vulgar response to the situation. We already have too many guns in public as it is! And what signal are we sending our children if they start seeing their schools as armed camps? Guns create fear. Fear in the minds of everyone, not just those looking to do harm. Guns prevent violence? They also prevent open and honest discussion in a classroom. Who was your favorite teacher? The one that was the strictest, most threatening? Or the one that was open and created a non-threatening environment?

    Including guns in the classroom destroys the whole learning environment. You might as well be trying to teach inmates. We cannot let a hunk of metal rule our society. When does it stop? Do we install metal detectors at every school, store and gas station? We need to take back our society from the firearm that threatens it. It doesn't mean MORE guns. It means more REGULATIONS. We need to have more accountability from those that own guns.

    Start with licensing every gun owner's firearms. A complete accounting of every weapon in the country. Any gun that isn't registered will be considered illegal and confiscated if found. All owner's will be required to pass a background check for violent acts, unstable behavior, and training on safety, existing gun laws, and their ability to handle the gun in question. If they can't or won't take the training then they don't get to own the weapon.

    We need meaningful gun laws if we are going to combat illegal acts like this one. Criminals get away with acts of violence not because people are unarmed, but because the current laws are too loose because of the NRA lobby.  If we insist on strict gun ownership then criminals will have an increasingly hard time getting their hands on guns. From the manufacturer to the sales to the owner, we need complete transparency.

    The 2nd amendment never said we couldn't track guns.

    "I think it's the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately." -- George Carlin, Satirical Comic,(1937-2008)

    by Wynter on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:32:54 AM PST

  •  Let's call it what it is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sarenth

    "Gun Control" is a euphemism. What's being discussed here is Gun PROHIBITION. A "War on Guns", if you will.

    What makes any of you think this is going to work? How did alcohol Prohibition work out? How is that War on Drugs going? Have you learned so little from those fiascoes that you're ready to start another one?

    FACT: It was already illegal for the shooter to own a gun. Man, that law did a wonderful job, didn't it? Toss a few more on the pile and who knows, maybe he might have stopped and said to himself "man, this is illegal! It has THREE laws against it! If there were only two I might say to hell with it, throw caution to the wind, but three laws is just too many!". Why would you ever think that making more laws against what is already illegal will solve anything?

    You already KNOW how this works. You ban guns, you create a black market with no oversight and no control at all, which draws producers and dealers to the profit potential and makes criminals out of ordinary citizens who now have to interact with criminals to get what they were going to get anyway. And you throw billions of dollars down the memory hole enriching law enforcement and the prison industrial complex while sending millions of innocent people to jail. Plus you crate new rackets and cartels and "gun lords" to go with the ones we have now for drugs. You know, like the ones we had for alcohol back when we banned that. How many new Al Capones are you ready to deal with? Because this bullshit is gonna create a lot of them. And they will be very rich and very powerful and very bad things will happen as they conduct their newly criminalized enterprise. You ready for that?

    Oh, and here's the real kicker: GUN VIOLENCE WILL NOT GO AWAY AND WILL NOT EVEN REDUCE. Did alcohol Prohibition stop anyone from drinking? Hell the fuck no it didn't. Has the War on Drugs eliminated drug use and drug addiction and drug overdoses? Has it even reduced it? Study after study after study says nope, not in the slightest.

    What makes you think that "Gun Control" would work any better? How would you actually do this in a way that doesn't fall into the same pitfalls that our past dalliances with prohibition have? What will you do so different that you won't create more problems than you solve?

    You CAN NOT eliminate guns. You can't. As long as demand exists, people will get their hands on them. What are you gonna go, shoot them all?

    "Is there anybody listening? Is there anyone who sees what's going on? Read between the lines, criticize the words they're selling. Think for yourself, and feel the walls become sand beneath your feet." --Geoff Tate, Queensryche

    by DarthMeow504 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 02:58:28 AM PST

  •  Number of guns in USA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Oh Mary Oh

    270 MM guns estimated in the U.S.
    That's 88 guns per 100 people.

    That is the real problem.

    I don't see any way to stop this specific type of event.  The guns are already there.  The victims could not defend themselves in any way.  The guns were legally obtained.

    The only possible way to prevent a mentally disturbed person from nabbing a gun from the house and doing this horror is to strongly encourage people to lock the damn things up.  Especially so if you know that a person that has access to weapons has a mental illness or is suspected of such.

    That said, we must have robust background checks on the mental health of the person buying a gun.  Then there are the gun shows...

    I don't know.

  •  Sometimes guns are the answer (0+ / 0-)

    While this is certainly not going to be a posts that wins me unparalleled adoration here, sometimes guns are the answer (just ask President Bush - sorry, couldn't help it).

    Actually, I'm referring to the Mall Shooting in Oregon. As the days have gone by and the investigation has progressed, it's come out that the killer was stopped when he was confronted by a concealed carrier as his weapon jammed.

    The details of the story are here: http://easybakegunclub.com/...

    The tragedy in Connecticut does call for action - I just do not believe it is a call for gun control. It's come out that the Connecticut killer had a history of mental illness. Let's discuss how to improve our mental health system and incorporate the improved system into firearm background checks. Now we're getting somewhere actually productive.

    •  That's the road to Soviet psychiatry (0+ / 0-)

      Pre-emptive removal of rights from people who may have committed no crime but whom Experts deem dangerous.

      If your constitution gives every citizen the Right To Bear Arms, then removing that Right on the basis of a risk assessment in the absence of any criminal conviction is a violation of that citizen's rights under your very own constitution on grounds that would potentially pave the way for disarming citizens for thought crimes, and thus undermining the very reasoning that underpins the 2nd Amendment.

      Also, how could it possibly work?

      The problem you guys have is that there are far too many guns in America, and with that many guns, some will get into the wrong hands, background checks or not.  Sounds like Lanza's weapons belonged to his mother, anyway.  Would you also strip 2nd Amendment rights from anyone who shared a house with someone who might be deemed a risk?

      The problem, it seems to me, is with the 2nd Amendment itself.  It needs either repeal, or further amendment.

      But whether you can stuff that genie back in the bottle I have no idea.  I'm just glad I'm a citizen of a country where it was never released.

    •  And you believe that? (0+ / 0-)

      Some moron makes that claim, with no corroborating evidence, and you believe it enough to post it here?

      Jesusfuckingchristonapogostick.

      That's exactly like the vast majority of these so-called defensive use of guns cases.  

      "Yeah man, I showed him my piece and he backed down right away!"
      Good grief.  I don't know what is sadder.  The love of guns or the gullibility.  
  •  Repeal the 2nd Amendment. (0+ / 0-)

    To any non-US citizen, your 2nd Amendment is simply nuts.

  •  Time to amend or repeal the 2nd amendment (0+ / 0-)

    There is absolutely no good reason to allow the possession of handguns, assault rifles etc.

    Time to ban completely. Make it a federal offense with mandatory hard time to be in possession of any unlicensed gun.

    Make buying hunting weapons severely difficult, including passing psych tests, waiting periods and mandatory classes and annual license renewal with further evaluations.

    This insanity must stop.

    "The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill." - Robert Anton Wilson

    by Marcus Junius Brutus on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:45:20 AM PST

    •  We've allowed gun salesman to control our policies (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marcus Junius Brutus

      for too long.  

      A rationale policy isn't that hard.  We should just pick a country with a successful gun policy and there are many to choose and go with a country that hasn't failed its citizens and those children the way ours has.  

      And we don't need to "craft" a policy.  Just pick another's countries policy and go with it exactly - japan, Canada, Britain etc .... it doesn't matter.  Just pick one.

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