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Pandora's box is open.  There are millions upon uncounted millions of guns in the public's hands.  There are billions upon uncounted billions of rounds of ammunition, and the capacity to make your own, in the public's hands.   Every action (that I had time to read so far today) defines reactive behaviours.  Nothing I've heard in the last 10 years comes close to actually preventing massacres.  The gun industry will continue to use their NRA surrogates leveraged by the fanatical gun owners.  The RNC will continue to fret about how libs want to rescind the second ammendment which will then immediately be followed by sharia socialism, blah blah blah.  The DNC will wring their hands in sorrow and dismay, offering plattitudes, sympathy, and e-mail requests for donations for the gun control campagin to (not) follow.
The real problems?
Our culture.  We tolerate debate on the surface and not the issue.
Our politics.   We tolerate debate on the surface and not the issue.
Our media.    We tolerate debate on the surface and not the issue.
Part of the soultion?

Change how we debate.  Change the messages that the entirety of people hear.  Boehner's been getting grief for only promoting his message to his choir via Fox and I'm very impressed by how the President is using his words.  Perhaps there's a real opportunity, this time, to develop a true debate.  But what has always happened is our long term memory sucks and today's tragedy will be replaced by tomorrows.  Today's promise to work for better gun control will be demoted when the world doesn't end with the Mayan calendar, then the fiscal cliff nears and then eventually forgotten and ignored in the next campaign.
So we need to talk the issues, not stop gaps.  We need to keep the pressure up, like we've done with Limbaugh.  We need to forgo the urge for revenge by changing laws of punishment and fruitlessly pushing for controls on weaponry but finding soultions to some very basic problems:
- the causes that let people in our society deconstruct into savagery.
- the causes that lead people to be so interested in keeping guns (e.g. loss of faith in our societies systems to protect them, such as in Newtown)
We need to change the direction this society is headed and I know I don't have the answers.  I'm sure there people out there that do.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Roadbed Guy, Utahrd, mungley

    The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

    by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 09:43:56 AM PST

  •  I won't discuss the causes without also (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, Ralphdog

    discussing the means.

    Republicans: They hate us for our Freedom.

    by mikeconwell on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 09:56:37 AM PST

    •  Obviously, and that was included in the diary (0+ / 0-)
      finding soultions to some very basic problems:
      - the causes that let people in our society deconstruct into savagery.
      - the causes that lead people to be so interested in keeping guns (e.g. loss of faith in our societies systems to protect them, such as in Newtown)

      The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

      by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 09:59:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The "Fire Triangle" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      EthrDemon, mikeconwell

      You can prevent fires by removing fuel, by removing air, and by removing ignition sources. None of the three is the "real" cause.

      In the case of shooting deaths we've got the problem that removing any of the causes is very difficult.

  •  Actually it isn't (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, limpidglass, mungley, Ralphdog, trumpeter

    Gun control legislation (as I am sure the RKBA folk around here may point out) may be ineffective on specifics

    BUT -- introducing and passing gun control legislation WILL change the debate and the perspective of the society at large

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 09:58:55 AM PST

    •  So, maybe not "pointless". You're (0+ / 0-)

      proposing the attempt to legislate additional gun controls as a tactic within the strategy to change the debate.  I'm afraid that the focus will remain, as it has to date, on the attempts to get control and not on addressing the reasons why the controls are needed.  I believe history has proven to us that by trying to "take the guns from (their) cold dead hands" the momentum will be lost.

      The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

      by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:09:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Totally agreed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Utahrd

    However, from posting the same idea over the past couple of days I've come to realize that perhaps the only thing more pointless than gun control (in the usual sense of the term) is discussing this at DailyKos . . ..

    •  I will study your comments, thanks... nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Roadbed Guy

      The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

      by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:09:56 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not sure if you have to go that far . . . (0+ / 0-)

        which would mean that you'd have to read a whole bunch of irrelevant stuff to get to the 3 or 4 comments that apply (I'd link them, but not even I want to do that!).

        If anything, I was mostly thinking of similar ideas put forward in a similar diary to mostly mild apathy and hardly universal acclaim . . .

        •  "Study" definately too strong a word :) (0+ / 0-)

          I checked the threads you commented on today, I see what you mean.  thanks for the psyche link. I read it as part of the "study"and she definately had a good rant on the matter,  about which I 100% agree.  I tried to get a different tact going but not much interest unfortunately. I'll blame it on poor quality due to spending only 5 minutes while digesting lunch to write the diary.

          The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

          by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:40:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  I love how giving up on solving the problem (4+ / 0-)

    is being proposed as the only possible solution to the problem.

    The "guns don't kill people, people kill people" meme is and has always been absurd.

    One could just as easily say "thermonuclear weapons don't kill people, people kill people." Try telling that to the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and you'll soon see how ridiculous that is!

    You say that it will be impossible to change the culture. But so they said of nonproliferation during the height of the Cold War. And there were paranoid factions that insisted that we be armed to the teeth, and show overwhelming nuclear superiority, enough to annihilate the world a hundred times over, in order to be safe.

    But eventually, through the efforts of courageous and dedicated men and women, sanity prevailed. People got tired of living under a cloud of fear, and they demanded change.

    It didn't really take that long for the ideas of counterproliferation to begin to be enacted into law--the first US-Soviet arms control treaty was signed in the early 1960s by President Kennedy.

    Saying "we cannot solve this problem" is merely giving cover to those who would continue uncontrolled gun proliferation.

    This is, unquestionably, a problem that must be solved--that should have been solved decades ago--and we should be pushing to solve it instead of navel-gazing about the "causes of savagery."

    Human beings are capable of savagery--that's a much more difficult problem to solve. But controlling the means by which they're able to commit acts of savagery is completely within our reach.

    "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

    by limpidglass on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:19:16 AM PST

    •  Ummmm, not what I said. (0+ / 0-)

      I'm saying that lots of people have lots of guns.  Not two people have a lot of guns.  I'm saying that if you continue to argue about taking those peoples guns away you will make them more defensive and the debate will not be the one you want.  Unless, of course, you like the way the debate has gone for the last 30 years.  I'm proposing it's time for a new strategy since until such time everyone is willing to give up their guns there will always be guns here.

      The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

      by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:55:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yes. Let's wave the white flag & call it good. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vayle, wilderness voice

      Because millions of guns are out there already, let's not even try to address our addition to lethal firearms.

  •  Doing nothing is not an option. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mungley, wilderness voice

    We must start somewhere if we are to do something, and our current laws are not efficient. One may argue that nothing will be truly efficient, but if one does nothing, one may expect nothing to change.

    I do not advocate repeal of the second amendment.
    I do not advocate doing nothing.

    What I do advocate is laws and regulations which will make access and ownership bear the responsibility that should be due.

    -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

    by Vayle on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 10:41:57 AM PST

    •  It's not time to do something just to do something (0+ / 0-)

      Gun control can be a tactic but it's not going to be a succesful strategy.  There are too many aligned against it; I'm proposing we find a way around those defences and turn the gun lobbies position into their Maginot Line.

      The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

      by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:20:29 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is not about doing something, just to do (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wilderness voice, popsnet

        something.

        Minimizing this is the first step toward maintaining the status quo.

        Further, you may dismiss regulation as you wish. You may accept that 'there are too many aligned against regulation' - and for yourself justify not trying, but there are things we can do, that over time will have an impact even if in the beginning, that impact is minimal.

        I suppose regulating any business or industry or activity is also pointless - why do anything more than we have. We should just stop, give up, but then, as you say, we can magically change others positions - somehow - just don't bother with laws cause...well that won't help.

        Sorry, not buying what you're selling here.

        -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

        by Vayle on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:29:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not selling, but you're ignoring history. This (0+ / 0-)

          has all happened before, numerous times, decade after decade.  My first experience was watching the Univ of Texas tower sniper.  There is nothing to make me believe this time is any different and that the results will be any different. (insert Einstein quote re: insanity here).  

          The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

          by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:01:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's fine. Cause you obviously know all. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wilderness voice

            Your expert knowledge of history and how it applies to now must be so beyond everyone...even questioning you is pointless too, so we just shouldn't.

            Do nothing and just expect nothing to change, because doing something is pointless. How about this, I won't question you and expect you to change and I am pretty sure you probably won't.

            Gotcha.

            -6.38, -6.21: Lamented and assured to the lights and towns below, Faster than the speed of sound, Faster than we thought we'd go, Beneath the sound of hope...

            by Vayle on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 12:05:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Gun control is useful. (2+ / 0-)

    No, it's not going to fix all of our problems, but it will help us to turn things around.

    Thanks for the diary.

    Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

    by mungley on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:06:21 AM PST

    •  Gun control is necessary but not sufficient (0+ / 0-)

      At this juncture I'm near certain, if history is to be our guide,  the push for gun controls will result in some weak legislated pablum that lets those in power stay in power with no change to the influence the monied interests have always weilded.  We have to change the story if we're going to get different results.  
      The only hope with the gun control approach I have is that this really is "the moment".  The moment where progressive liberalism is on the ascendency and the "50 state strategy" is paying off.  Where we have a true leader, a true believer, in the White House who can get us back on the proper path.

      The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

      by Memory Corrupted on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 11:17:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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