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In my mind the answer is both.

First off and to be absolutely clear; I am in favor of bans on the manufacture and sale of assault weapons and all high capacity clips.

In contrast, however, I do not favor the registration or other restrictions on ownership of long guns used for actual hunting such as single shot, double barrel, bolt action, lever action or pump shotguns and rifles with low capacity magazines of any gauge or caliber.

That being said, however, all semiautomatic long guns and all handguns, both semiautomatics and revolvers, must be subject to registration.

I would suggest that a registration program be carried out in a very calm and non-confrontation manner. Follow to see my suggestions as to how

I will be quite frank and state that the NRA, if we end up with mandated gun registration, wishes for nothing less than multiple repeats of Waco and Ruby Ridge as government entities try to “force” the registration and/or confiscation of firearms.

We cannot play that game. There must be an effective yet non-confrontational alternative.

First, the new purchase or sale of a gun by a licensed gun dealer and/or guns show, once the registration law is in effect, would require that that gun be registered.  (Sale only to licensed buyers should also be included but I want to address only the question of registration.)

Second, there would be a year long voluntary registration period wherein a gun own can, with no penalty, present his gun or guns to the authorities be registered.

At the end of the registration period the following would be in effect in regard to unregistered guns:

•    No general searches or seizures of unregistered firearms would be undertaken.

•    Use of an unregistered firearm in the commission of a crime; results in AUTOMATIC higher sentences for that crime if the defendant is found guilty.  In addition, a property search is justified and all additional unregistered firearms and related materials are subject to confiscation.

•    If a cache of weapons is removed from an owner’s property by theft and subsequently recovered by the authorities, any illegal weapons are subject to confiscation and all legal weapons will be returned to the owner after registration.

•    If an unregistered firearm is found in public through a legal body or vehicle search, that firearm is prima fascia evidence for detention of the carrier and justification for a search warrant on the carrier’s property. Any unregistered firearms found in that search along with related materials are subject to confiscation UNLESSS the owner registers those legal firearms. If the search under such a situation turns up illegal weapons, including assault rifles; all illegal weapons will be confiscated.

The bottom line here is the following.

•    If you hunt with a long gun, nothing changes for you.

•    All firearms moving through licensed gun dealers are subject to registration.

•    If you own a legal firearm that is subject to registration, it may be registered voluntarily in a “grace” period with no penalty.

•    If you own a legal or illegal weapon, such as an assault rifle; it is not subject to “search and seizure” or “forced” registration unless you commit a crime and/or said weapons have been found outside your property.

If a gun owner has dreams of using his legal or illegal firearms in defending his property against a demon horde of miscreants or intrusion by his government; as long as he keeps his dreams and firearms to himself, locked in his basement, there is no problem.   Use them in a crime or bring them into public, then there is hell to pay.

I realize that the prohibition on unregistered guns in public brings up the question of an otherwise law-abiding shooter going to or from a shooting range with his unregistered weapon. The answer is that shooting ranges will be allowed to “store” owner’s firearms.  However, ranges must be licensed just as dealers and any weapon removed from the range must be registered. In other words, an unregistered weapon may, if the range owner agrees, be kept at a shooting range but may not be removed until it is registered.

What I am putting forward here will not result in the registration of all firearms immediately but, over time, will begin to insure that are firearms are registered and in the hands of licensed owners, dealers or shooting ranges.

It will take time but it is preferable to thousands of fire fights between the authorities and gun hoarders.

Originally posted to cazcee on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:30 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (5+ / 0-)

    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

    by cazcee on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:30:07 PM PST

  •  On first glance, (3+ / 0-)

    it all sounds like sane and well-thought out policy. It doesn't rattle the cages of the gun owners and it goes a long way toward helping gun-control advocates feel they're off to a good start.

    By far, the vast majority of gun owners are law-abiding and trustworthy. It's the doomsdayers and would-be revolutionaries that cause concern for me.

    I'd like to see the NRA tone down the fear-mongering, too. It isn't healthy for our national psyche, no matter how many guns it sells.

    I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

    by Gentle Giant on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:43:28 PM PST

  •  I don't understand why everyone can't just (3+ / 0-)

    register all the guns they have? If I have to register my car or motorcycle, no matter how it's purchased, why don't gun owners feel they have to register their guns?

    Is it they feel like they're above the law because they can kill anyone who disagrees?

    Are they hiding something??

    I really don't understand what the big deal is. If you have a gun that you legally purchased, legally own, legally use & legally maintain, why is legally registering it a big deal?

    Follow me on Twitter! @guileofthegods

    by Guile Of The Gods on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:48:43 PM PST

    •  Because (8+ / 0-)

      There is historical precedent for those registration rolls to be used to confiscate those firearms later. This has happened in the UK and California, for example.

      ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
      My Blog
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      by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:57:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hey338Too

        But if the firearms themselves are still legal, how could they do that? It sounds to me like gun owners are just afraid of something... which is probably why they carry a gun in the 1st place.

        But just like I would feel safer knowing who in my neighborhood is a sex offender, it would be nice to know who in my neighborhood owned a registered gun, so I could avoid them or befriend them.

        In my opinion (as someone who's never even seen a real gun in person before) I think the 1st step in calling yourself a responsible gun owner would be to register it. Because if you register it, you're telling everyone, hey everyone, I have this gun but this document shows that the state is aware of it & I have gone through safety training. THen I can say, hey, look at him, he's being safe & responsible which makes me feel safer being around him. But again, thats just my gunless opinion.

        Follow me on Twitter! @guileofthegods

        by Guile Of The Gods on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:02:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heller (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          maxomai

          Said that there was an individual right to own guns.

          I think before we can have gun registration the gov't will have to try to ban semi autos and then have that declared unconstitutional.

          A lot of people who own guns believe, and not without precedent that registration will lead to confiscation.

          Also a national registration would require amending the GCA 1968 if I'm not mistaken.

          However IF the court would rule an AWB unconstitutional then we'd have a starting point for registration.

          If people felt that their right to own guns could never be taken away they would be less likely to object to stuff like each gun having a title, and a background check having to be done before that title was transferred.

          •  But isn't confiscation one of the things... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            glorificus, Guile Of The Gods

            ... 2nd Amendment advocates say is important if a person commits a felony or is declared mentally incapable of owning a firearm?  How can we have it both ways?

            If a person is convicted of some kind of felony not related to weapons, how are we supposed to suspend his rights unless we know what weapons he possesses?  This is the same argument for a person who may be deemed a danger to thre community.  In neither of these cases should the current owner be allowed to determine the disposition of the weapons we all agree he should forfeit.

            I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

            by Hey338Too on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:33:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Presumably... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrankRose

              ...the authorities can obtain a warrant to search their property and confiscate their firearms, if they are convicted of a felony or other violent crime, or are committed. Registration might help here, but you'd be hard pressed to make the case that it helps much.

              ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
              My Blog
              My wife's woodblock prints

              by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:44:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't see how registration wouldn't help... (0+ / 0-)

                ... completely here.  I keep hearing arguments from proponents of the second amendment that we need to keep guns away from felons, etc.  If the proposals in this diary were to be part of a law, we would immediately be able to determine what needs to be confiscated.

                I haven't been here long enough to be considered a Kossack, does that mean that I'm just a sack?

                by Hey338Too on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:21:39 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Again (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hey338Too, FrankRose, Bailey2001

                  Those same proponents are going to object to general registration as a first step to confiscation, for reasons I've outlined elsewhere. If there was some guarantee that this won't happen, you might get more agreement, but without that, general registration is not acceptable and will be fought tooth and nail.

                  ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                  My Blog
                  My wife's woodblock prints

                  by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:35:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I thought the guarantee was the 2nd Amendment? (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm all for registration of guns, but I am also all for following the laws in the Constitution. If the Constitution, however it is read, states citizens can have guns, whatever, than THAT is what protects them from being taken away. Just because I register my car, it doesn't mean it's going to get taken away.

                    So, again, (not trying to be mean or argumentative, just trying to capture the gun owners perspective) since the 2nd Amendment guarantees these gun owners can own guns, why can't the register them so non gun owners, like myself, can feel just a tad safer? It's kinda like a deal, I don't mind that people have guns, but I would like to know who has a registered gun, because, in my non gun owning mind, that is a responsible gun owner.

                    Follow me on Twitter! @guileofthegods

                    by Guile Of The Gods on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:08:32 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If only it were that simple (0+ / 0-)

                      The Second Amendment should be the guarantee, but it isn't, not on its own. Amendments can be repealed. Gun ban treaties that overrule the Constitution can be signed. The Constitution can - and often is - simply ignored, "for the greater good." It's fashionable these days to interpret the Second Amendment as guaranteeing the states the right to a militia with no individual right to bear arms implied. Supreme Court rulings can be overturned. And there is a very active campaign, particularly right now, to simply make as many guns as possible illegal.

                      As with any other civil liberty, it needs to be defended, and vigorously so.

                      ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                      My Blog
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                      by maxomai on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:58:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  So (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nextstep

          Would you want to advertise that you had a collection of gold coins in your house?

          I dont' buy the myth that a gun protects you from everything so I'd be afraid of advertising to thieves that you owned guns for fear of breakins.

        •  Well, that's the thing (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oldpunk, RonV, FrankRose

          In the UK, they did it by later outlawing the guns.

          In California, it was the Attorney General who re-interpreted existing law, and determined that SKS rifles, which before had been determined to be legal, were henceforth illegal.

          Given these precedents, and the talk of banning firearms and repealing the Second Amendment, the concern that confiscation is coming is perfectly reasonable.

          ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
          My Blog
          My wife's woodblock prints

          by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:31:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  You forgot Hitler and the Soviet Union! See below (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glorificus, OrwellianThinker

        the best slippery slope video you will ever see:

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:18:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  You don't have to register your car (0+ / 0-)

      You can own a car without registering it or paying insurance.  You don't even need a license.  Simply don't drive it on public streets.  The problem is that guns aren't in the same category in this way, which is why registration or licensing need to be handled differently from cars if they happen at all.

    •  What is the purpose of registration? (0+ / 0-)

      Why are cars registered?

      Why would guns be registered?

      Would gun registration be made publicly available?

      "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

      by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 04:23:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I don't think we have to force anything (4+ / 0-)

    We don't force the registration of cars either, but if you get caught driving a car that isn't registered you pay the price.

    I'm fine with registration of all firearms along with at least yearly re-registration and testing (to prove possession). If it's good enough for cars... why not firearms.

    If you don't want to register your firearm, then you take the chance of 10 years in prison if you're caught in possession of an unregistered firearm. No need to force or confiscate anything proactively.

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:49:04 PM PST

    •  Testing, how? (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KVoimakas, RonV, oldpunk, theboz, FrankRose

      You mean testing that we know the rules of safety? Can shoot them properly and accurately? Please clarify.

      ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
      My Blog
      My wife's woodblock prints

      by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:58:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I imagine testing would be (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        i understand, cazcee

        testing to make sure the gun works properly? If guns are registered to the state, then the state could make sure that everyone is using a safe gun (sounds weird, I know) and that the people using the guns know what they're doing, so irresponsible gun nuts (obviously not the normal gun toting people) don't ruin it for everyone, because I think that's the issue at hand, is that a few people are ruining it for the rest. So, the rest (the responsible gun owners) should take the step to distance themselves from the crazy gun owners, register their weapons, that way they lead the way to SAFE & RESPONSIBLE gun ownership, which I think EVERYONE can agree with is the ultimate goal of gun laws?

        Follow me on Twitter! @guileofthegods

        by Guile Of The Gods on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:05:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Guile Of The Gods, cazcee

          That the weapon meets whatever standards, that the ballistic signature is on file and unchanged. And that the owner still qualifies for the weapon.

          We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

          by i understand on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:07:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  So several points (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oldpunk, Kentucky Kid, Bailey2001

          First, as I mentioned elsewhere, gun owners are going to balk at registration, and probably so will Congress. Again, there is plenty of historical precedent that it leads to confiscation. They are likely to be especially nervous since there is talk of a ban on semiautomatics. If there is some sort of guarantee that can be built in that confiscation will NOT follow registration, then that might help.

          But, if we accept registration as a given (which it isn't), then I can see the usefulness of requiring a gun owner to bring their unloaded firearms to the local police, cycle them, dry fire them, engage the safeties where applicable, write out the four laws of gun safety, and verify all the serial numbers, once every four years or so, in order to renew their registration. It's really not that much of a pain in the ass and it makes sure that people actually know to use these things safely.

          Lastly, it helps to keep in mind right now what the Brady Campaign and everyone else is acknowledging: despite all the talk of a Federal prohibition, gun owners have the upper hand. Feinstein's bill is unlikely to pass the Senate. Anything more restrictive than "closing the gun show loophole" is unlikely to even come up for a committee vote in the House. This is a short term situation and may easily change, and so yes, it would behoove gun owners to find a workable solution that keeps firearms out of the hands of the irresponsible and the malicious. This is going to require a good faith discussion, and there's very little of that happening these last few weeks.

          ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
          My Blog
          My wife's woodblock prints

          by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:24:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, I hate registering my car (0+ / 0-)

            But it's the law. Why do gun owners think they don't have to follow the same laws as everyone else? They're afraid of getting them taken away. Well, I'm sorry, but tough shit. I wish I could smoke weed in public in front of cops, but I can't, because it's the  law. So I can either follow the law or risk being arrested, even though I don't like the law.

            Gun owners need to follow the rules or face the consequences. If irresponsible gun owners are ruining it for everyone else, then I'm sorry, maybe the responsible gun owners need to police the irresponsible gun owners, but it's at the point where this conversation turns into gun owners protesting "NO, we refuse to do anything  because you'll take away our guns".

            So I'm curious, what's more of a human right, my right to feel safety in public places, or your right to own a gun that makes you feel special? Registration isn't confiscating, that's just a fearful conspiracy theory. So right now, every gun owner fighting registration becomes a child throwing a temper tantrum because they don't want to follow the rules & want to do what they want or they'll whine. Responsible citizens are willing to have a conversation on safe & responsible gun ownership with responsible gun owners, but everytime a gun owner says "I refuse to register, even if it's the law, because I'm afraid", they just became an irresponsible & untrustworthy gun owner, which is part of the problem. Fighting registration at this point is just making gun fight worse, & is not helping gun owners.

            Follow me on Twitter! @guileofthegods

            by Guile Of The Gods on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:53:19 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  But that's just it. (0+ / 0-)

              But it's the law.

              No, it isn't. And if the NRA and GOA and SAF can keep it that way, they will.

              ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
              My Blog
              My wife's woodblock prints

              by maxomai on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:29:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  But from what I've heard from gun owners (0+ / 0-)

                they keep saying "if they make a law that I have to register my gun, I'll simply refuse". And I think that's the biggest problem. We have people who want to be treated as responsible, law abiding gun owners, but they're rebelling like little children instead of coming forward to make an agreement on a safer gun society.

                Follow me on Twitter! @guileofthegods

                by Guile Of The Gods on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:03:33 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you believe a law is fundamentally unjust... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...will you follow it?

                  Most people would. Some won't. 9 out of 10 of those folks will go ahead and register their guns, because they don't really believe their own platitudes. 1 in 10 will disobey the law, because they believe it's that important.

                  All of this is academic, frankly. You might get gun registration in the bluest of blue states, but not in the Western states other than California, and certainly not nationally.

                  ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
                  My Blog
                  My wife's woodblock prints

                  by maxomai on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 07:46:07 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  who is going to pay to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrankRose, Bailey2001

          inspect 300,000,000 firearms yearly?

          Even if you only spend 15 minutes per firearm that's 9.3 million man days per year, or about 40,000 full time employees.

          40,000 competent gunsmiths will cost something like 4 billion dollars a year just in salary and benefits, let alone their offices and equipment and assistants and any money spent enforcing this.

    •  In NY, you can buy a car... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      glorificus

      keep it in your garage, and never register it. If you get caught using it (not possessing it) illegally you pay the penalty.

      Currently, if you get caught using a gun illegally (hunting without a license, menacing, armed robbery, murder, etc.) you also pay the penalty.

      "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

      by RonV on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:28:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I would also add "ban all firearm transfers". (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DefendOurConstitution

    New purchases only. If you want to get rid of a firearm, have it destroyed.

    We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

    by i understand on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 01:50:31 PM PST

    •  I'm a democrat (6+ / 0-)

      And for sure I would be against that.

    •  I have a gun from my grandfather (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      maxomai, notrouble, RonV, Kentucky Kid

      It is the only thing of his that I own apart from a dog tag.  There is no way in hell that I would destroy it since I expect to be able to give it to one of my children when they are old enough.  My dad gave it to me when I was a teenager by the way, and I never even came close to using it dangerously.

      •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RonV, theboz

        My most prized firearm isn't an AR-15 or a Glock. It's a single shot black powder pistol that was handed down to me from my maternal grandfather. My plan is to give it to my very bright and wonderful cousin, my first cousin's daughter, after I die. No way I'm destroying that.

        ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
        My Blog
        My wife's woodblock prints

        by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:55:15 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I do not favor destruction........... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theboz

        of a firearm unless it is voluntary by the owner. Transfers, especially within families and on hunting firearms, should be allowed. I gave my nephew my Grandfather's double barrel shotgun last year so it stays in the family.

        The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

        by cazcee on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 04:08:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I see, that's a good point (0+ / 0-)

        I will think about that. I can see the case for inheritance. I don't see the case for gifting as that can be abused.

        We were not ahead of our time, we led the way to our time.

        by i understand on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 06:57:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I disagree with you there as well (0+ / 0-)

          The problem is that you are going from something that is considered to be a right and seeking to add restrictions.  Rather than starting with the restrictions and creating "loopholes", you should approach it from the standpoint of creating restrictions based on specific, quantifiable benefits and needs.  For example, I'd like to see gun users be licensed after attending training and passing tests similar to how car owners are licensed.  The quantifiable benefit would be that we can ensure a standard amount of safety training and responsibility on the part of gun users that can reduce accidental shootings and improper storage of guns and ammunition.  What will the benefit of restricting gifting be?  What if I am a hunter and a friend of mine who is also a hunter buys a better gun for himself and wants to give me his older one since it is better than my hunting rifle?

    •  Ok.....against that idea (0+ / 0-)
  •  Great food for thougt cazcee. A great beginning (0+ / 0-)

    to address the carnage.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:05:36 PM PST

  •  Your idea would ban (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RonV, oldpunk, theboz

    me from using my AR for hunting.  You folks do realize that the primary purchase of the modern rifle (AR) is hunting afterall.  You law would mean that I could take it out of my house.

    How about we focus on the guns that do most the killing for a change.  Go after handguns if you must grab some guns.  Less people use hand guns for hunting then AR's although many do use certain handguns for hunting as well.  Hell, go after the high capacity clips if you must (although also pointless).  I don't need a 30 round clip for hunting purposes.  I currently use 10-20 round clips anyways.

    •  10-round magazine for hunting? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      oldpunk

      In most states, that's called poaching. Do you really want to admit to that here?

      ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
      My Blog
      My wife's woodblock prints

      by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:34:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Depends what you hunt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maxomai

        Nobody needs a 10 round magazine for deer hunting, but it could be useful for feral hog hunting, coyote hunting, and other types of varmint/predator hunting.  

        "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

        by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:50:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Indeed (0+ / 0-)

          High capacity magazines are just the thing for prairie dogs.

          But there, I draw the line at red-dot sights. IMO, use iron or GTFO and leave it to the marksmen(‡).

          [(‡) does not have to be male.]

          ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
          My Blog
          My wife's woodblock prints

          by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:59:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Obviously you have no clue (0+ / 0-)

        but they are very legal in most states to hunt coyotes, pigs, prairie dogs, etc.

        They are in fact a huge help in that style of hunting which is why we hunters are very much against the absurd demand to take our hunting tools away from us.

    •  You don't have any alternative?.............. (0+ / 0-)

      You can't go hunting with a bazooka or RPG's either. Get something else for hunting.

      I take issue with your statement that "the primary purchase of the modern rifle (AR) is hunting afterall (sic)."  It may well have been in your case.

      However, most of us know that, in most cases, the primary purpose for the purchase of a gun that looks combative, bad and mean has nothing to do with hunting.  These guns are not advertised and marketed on the basis of hunting. They are all about macho image,  self and home protection, combat and fighting "imagined" supression by the governemnt.

      In addition, I hate to break the news to you but most would probably set the cut off between high capacity and low capacity magazines at around 5 rounds.  You don't need ten rounds for hunting.

      Under what I am suggesting, your AR, with any size mag you prefer, is safe as long as you keep it at home and, of course, stay out of trouble.  

      The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

      by cazcee on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:45:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

        However, most of us know that, in most cases, the primary purpose for the purchase of a gun that looks combative, bad and mean has nothing to do with hunting.  These guns are not advertised and marketed on the basis of hunting. They are all about macho image,  self and home protection, combat and fighting "imagined" supression by the governemnt.

        Is that why there's a call to ban them?

        That said, I agree, 5 rounds is the most you need to hunt. Larger magazines have other legitimate use cases, specifically, those where the police can't help.

        ‎"Masculinity is not something given to you, but something you gain. And you gain it by winning small battles with honor." - Norman Mailer
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        by maxomai on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 02:51:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, I think so partially.............. (0+ / 0-)

          as far a I know you can still buy semi-automatic, long barrel, shotguns and rifles with "older" style wood stocks and fore grips and blued actions and barrel designed for hunting and/or, in he case of shotguns, skeet shooting.  Because of hunting restrictions in most states on magazine capacity most of these guns carry less than 5 rounds.

          Aside from appearance, overall length and magazine capacity the firing actions on these guns operate exactly the same as a Assault Rifle, a semi-automatic. While to the gun culture the similarities between an assault rifle and a semi-automatic hunting rifle are purely cosmetic; given past actions banning assault rifles, we must conclude that there is a recognized societal difference. My comment speaks to that.  

          The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

          by cazcee on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:11:41 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  So my Benelli shotgun (0+ / 0-)

          I use for pheasent hunting should be banned?  It can have more then 5 rounds, is a semi auto, and is much more dangerous then any AR15.

          Now you really are expanding the net and really pissing off more and more hunters.

          Again, maybe you should stick to handguns.  They are used in most all murders afterall when it comes to guns.

      •  Citation? (4+ / 0-)
        "However, most of us know that, in most cases, the primary purpose for the purchase of a gun that looks combative, bad and mean has nothing to do with hunting."
        Or is that just one of those "everybody knows" kind of facts that aren't really facts at all.

        "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

        by RonV on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:07:59 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mea cupla........................ (0+ / 0-)

          I will galdly substitute the words, "some of feel" for "most of us know,"  however, you will never convince me that the sale of assault rifles is  mostly about hunting.

          The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation--HDT

          by cazcee on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:19:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well (0+ / 0-)

            it certainly is mostly about killing people.  Millions are sold per year yet they account for a fraction of gun related deaths.  What do you suppose the other million or so are used for?

            Target practice and hunting are the primary reasons to have one.  Hell, go watch coyote hunting on TV and watch what gun they have in their hands.

      •  My benelli shotgun (0+ / 0-)

        has a higher capacity then 5 rounds and I use that for pheasant hunting.  Do you think that gun should be taken away from me as well?  It is much more dangerous then any AR afterall.

        Also, you are veyr wrong about AR's and their advertisements.

        This is the gun I use for coyote hunting:

        http://www.remington.com/...

        Remington R-15 Byron South

        Does that look scary to you?  It is specifically designed for coyote hunting and advertised as such.  It also accepts those 30 round clips!

        Demanding that I keep my hunting tool at home is the same as demanding that I give it up.  Hunting tools do no good if you can't take them into the field.

        I am completely against your idea like most predator hunters I know.

  •  There are huge psychological differences... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cazcee

    in the replies to this diary. On one hand there are novices that have "never even seen a real gun in person " (Guile Of The Gods) to the gun owner who uses his "AR for hunting". That is a very broad range of attitudes and experience with weapons. Some people in Idaho are preparing for the"Apocalypse". I haven't read every post, but I didn't see anybody on this site talk about "going after" anybody's guns. I am a gun owner and I believe that if a firearm is obtained legally (as opposed to stolen) I'm not sure anyone can "confiscate" legally obtained property, not involved in a crime, without justification. I'm sure there are isolated instances, but it doesn't sound constitutional. I would like to know if my neighbors are driving illegally, if my children/grandchildren are at risk from drunk drivers, sex offenders and people who are armed and dangerous. I would like to feel that we can go to the mall, to the movies and drop our loved ones off at school without fear that someone with a beef can blow up our world. There is a rational reason we track aircraft in flight, automobiles and baby carriages for recall or license your pets. This is a very creative society. We prosper when we minimize chaos. Surely we can come to some agreement on a solution where we don't become a fully armed wild west again or Mad Max in Thunderdome. Where every man, women and child must be "packing" in order to "feel safe" or "free". I think most rational people would like to know that those among us that own weapons capable of killing large swaths of people and destroying countless families are responsible people who have training and have taken precautions to make sure their weapons are not casually available to everyone. We need to know that without taking the NRA or some vested interest's word for it. I think we all know the intent of the 2nd amendment wasn't so that everyone could amass a personal arsenal to defend themselves (ala "Red Dawn") against some imagined government tyranny. Remind your crazy relatives and neighbor about drones, tanks and bunker buster bombs the next time they rant in response to some new legislation they aren't happy about.

    'It isn’t fair: the caterpillar does all the work, and the butterfly gets all the glory.' - George Carlin

    by FloridaRedneck on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:28:14 PM PST

  •  What are the benefits of registration (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theboz, Bailey2001

    in reducing homicide, accidents, etc., based on the experience of states that already have registration?

    What does the data show in the increased ability of law enforcement to solve crimes, or prevent crimes?

    Presumably the argument for registration in Congress will not be that it is a necessary first step to confiscation, as the NRA will contend.  What is the data based evidence that deaths and injuries will be reduced through gun registration?

    Some states have registration for handguns only.  What does the data show in regards to an all gun Vs handgun only registration policy.

    Proponents on registration need to make the case, rather than just assume others will agree on the need for registration without evidence as to its benefits.

    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

    by nextstep on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:30:03 PM PST

  •  A legitimate question about registration (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    notrouble

    If firearms are required to be registered, does it become public record? Can anyone search and see who has guns, what kinds, and how many?

    "I'm a progressive man and I like progressive people" Peter Tosh

    by Texas Lefty on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:53:06 PM PST

  •  registration (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    PSWaterspirit, Samulayo, Bailey2001

    I am a federally-licensed gun dealer and own a retail gun store.  Every gun that I sell or otherwise transfer must be registered; i.e., I must first conduct a background check with the FBI who then allows me to transfer the gun to the customer, and I must then enter the customer's name and address in my firearms log which is periodically inspected by he ATF.  If I sell guns at gun shows I must go through the same procedure. Sorry cazcee, but you wrote a whole article for nothing.  
    What you didn't say is that the person who gets the gun from me can, in turn, sell it or give it to someone else without conducting a background check, nor is that individual, in disposing of his gun to someone else, necessarily required to make a record of the identity of the new owner.
    If I had a nickel for every well-intentioned expert like cazcee who makes authoritative statements about firearms laws without the slightest idea of what he's talking about, I wouldn't have to stand behind my counter selling guns for a living.
    But why let facts get in the way of your opinions, right?

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