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I'm just checking real facts so we can debate this issue with more clarity. Enclosed are some YouTube examples of not only a 50 round drum firing on semi-auto, but with a still legal slide stock , a AR-15 or a AK is turned into a full automatic or one can fire in more accurate and deadly three round bursts. The cost of the Bump fire stocks seem to be around $350.00. It's not exactly like an full auto in that a shooter may have to practice a bit, but look at the videos and you decide.

I clocked a few shooters on You tube emptying a 50 round mag on semi-auto in 8-9 seconds with accurate fire. It's actually more accurate to go with semi-auto and 3-4 round bursts then to unload a magazine in a second or so on full auto with the recoil pushing the barrel up.  I have a 9mm with a 12 round mag I can unload in 2 seconds.

The Cyclic fire rate on a M-16 according to specs is 750-900 rounds per minute on full auto. Obviously that can't be done when most of them are equipped with 30 round magazines and it's a long jail sentence if you get caught with a military M-16.

It's not easy to convert a AR-15 to a full M-4 or M-16 but it can be done with a good gunsmith. The Bump Slide solution is the easiest and it's legal .  

Lets got to the visuals . First up the Bump Fire method.

Here is one with two 50 round drums mounted .

It looks like Cyclic rate is about twice that of a semi-auto and about 80% of a M-4.

Now lets look at the "1 second " talking point the NRA is using to convince people that reducing Magazine size is futile because they could just pop another mag in.  Lets not hold back . Here's one with a fully trained  Marine.

Granted 2.5 seconds is not much time. But it was enough to stop the Gabby Gifford shooter. Of course he could have come in with some mods and used that Glock with two mounted 50 round drums. He only had a 30 round one.

Lets look at a shooter just firing on semi-auto .

It's just not the assault weapon per se, there are attachments to turn one of the popular handguns into full autos as well as longer barrel attachments to get more range.

There are no statistics I can find where someone has successfully used a AR-15 in self-defense against a similarly equipped "bad Guy"

Finally this point. A New Gang Banger may have a clean record and is there for a law abiding citizen under the NRA definition. That new Gang Banger may have to show what he's made of with his very first drive-by shooting. Now if he or she has a bump slide equipped rifle and the car is going fast , that means airborne projectiles that can go for a few miles.

Let’s look at a shooter firing a .223 at  1000 yards targets. He's having trouble. 400 Yard shots (4 football fields, are much easier to make)

One thing we do know is that a "real" auto is a good way to go to jail for years.  I am 100% certain that the same penalty will not apply even with a bump fire .223 AR-15. I don't think any congressional action will take place at all.

Nevertheless, visual proof is far more helpful than an emotional argument.  We saw the videos on the MSM shooting 9mm and Glock .40 Calibers. Compare those with the above and remember it won’t be at a static target. It will be against a fast walking crazy person firing loud and fast. That’s a world of difference then a few days of training with static targets at almost point blank range.

Update: How about a belt fed AR-15. I assume if you have the Bump Slide
You have a full auto belt-fed killing machine.

Originally posted to Dburn on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 01:42 PM PST.

Also republished by Shut Down the NRA.

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Comment Preferences

  •  I think a 10 round magazine limit (8+ / 0-)

    pretty well kills the effectiveness of the bump slide. The magazine would be empty real quick and the shooter would need to carry so many that it wouldn't be very effective. The number of rounds hitting the intended target is generally better when shots are taken one at a time.

    That said, I would like to see the bump slide prohibited. I think the best way to define it is to say the stock or grip cannot assist the shooter in returning the trigger. In fact, I think it could be stated as not allowing any part of the firearm or attachment to the firearm to assist in returning the trigger.

    A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by notrouble on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 02:24:14 PM PST

    •  I never even heard of it until I did research (0+ / 0-)

      on it today. The fact they are only $350 is unreal.  Look at the eco-system that's surrounds the M-16/M-4 in terms of attachments. I haven't spent too much time on the AR-15, but I'm willing to bet a shotgun under  is not hard to find.

      When do they find a work-around for the 40mm  grenade launcher. ? It's not just the magazines. Unless they make a completely different rifle than the M-4/16 those accessories will find a way to the AR-15.

  •  11B10 Light Weapons Infantryman here (5+ / 0-)

    While we would patrol with our M-16 on full automatic, it was basically to make a lot of noise real fast and gain fire superiority. After blowing through the first magazine (usually 18 rounds since 20 would often cause jams), we would switch to semi-automatic for sake of accuracy and to conserve ammo. Our SOP was to carry 16 magazines IIRC. On full auto these would last mere minutes and you would  be standing there with you dick in your hands.

    A note to gun fans. Shooting at humans who are shooting back is different than plunking beer cans. It's very messy and the memories last decades.

    We all stand submissively before the global ATM machine network like trained chickens pecking the correct colored buttons to release our grains of corn. Joe Bageant

    by Zwoof on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 02:38:05 PM PST

  •  How about the rate of fire with a single action (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dburn, IreGyre

    revolver?

    Others have simply gotten old. I prefer to think I've been tempered by time.

    by Just Bob on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 02:42:15 PM PST

  •  Making Noise Fast is All They Are Doing (5+ / 0-)

    For actually engaging selected targets that "bump slide" is useless as teats on a boar.

    Folks, I know that stuff looks scary but that's all it does. Controlled fire at a rate of a shot every couple seconds has always been more effective than mass rapid fire for anything other than suppressive fire, ie. making folks keep their heads down while your buddy sneaks closer.

    And the .223 is about the 203rd most effective available cartridge for 1,000 yard shooting, just (barely) ahead of the .45/70 Custer's troops carried at the Little Bighorn.

    Incidentally, those were single shot rifles that had to be reloaded after every shot and in moderately-skilled hands 20 rounds per minute of aimed fire was common.

    Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

    by The Baculum King on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 04:52:30 PM PST

    •  Heck, I read somewhere that smooth-bore (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dburn

      muskets in the Napoleonic Wars could get off 3 shots per minute ... and that's muzzle-loaded.

      So I'm not too surprised that by Custer's time there was something (I'm assuming breech-loaded) that could be fired about 20 per minute.

      But I still think limiting legal magazine capability is a good idea.  Even if it only takes 2 seconds for some killer to stop & change magazines, that's 2 seconds more opportunity for the rest of us to either run further away or maybe try to take away the killer's gun.

      "Specialization is for insects." -- Heinlein

      by BachFan on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 05:49:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What about controlled 3-4 round bursts (0+ / 0-)

      which has been used more on full auto weapons that an emptying the mag in a second or so.

      At 2700- 3000 FPS, a .223 may not be worth much at 1000 yards but the problems begin to back up because of the speed of the round , unless it hits vital organs, more than one shot per target is required. The .223 in 3-4 round burst or in rapid semi-auto fulfills this which makes it a problem especially when we see those kids each had multiple rounds in them .

      It's not just the school shootings though, it's also in bad neighborhoods in drive-bys. If they fire semi or full auto rounds will be traveling all over the place and for quite the distance too. I lived in a area where that was a nightly feature.

      The next conundrum  we are producing right now is that arms factories are making more and more of these weapons available right now with low information gun owners as people use up all their savings to by large mags and extra rifles in huge quantities at highly elevated prices. At some point the whole issue will simmer down and we are going to have a excess rifle problem with a crap load of people who want to get whatever money they can for them.

  •  You got the marine time wrong. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BlackSheep1

    That's a shot timer doing the beeping. Typically you set it to measure the amount of time it takes you to complete an action. The marine seems to be getting timed on completion of four shots.
    Two, then a reload, then two more.
    Time is measured from the first beep.
    So, 2.6 seconds is the sum total of ALL of the following..
    The marine hearing the beep and commencing the action
    The marine firing two controlled shots.
    The marine ejecting the magazine with one hand.
    The marine fetching and inserting the magazine with the other hand.
    The marine hitting the bolt stop to release the bolt and load a round from the new magazine.
    The marine returning his left hand to firing position.
    The marine firing two more controlled shots.

    This video does not support your conclusion about loughner, the giffords shooter.

    It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink. The answer is not gun control, it's people care.

    by JayFromPA on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 07:42:54 PM PST

    •  Sure it does (0+ / 0-)

      First off , that level of training is miles above anything that loughner had.

      1. Hearing the beep: That's an advantage. There is no beep when a magazine is empty.  

      2. I agree on the initial two controlled shots.

      3. All other steps required to change magazines and come back to a shooting position including the two shots at the end are all relative . After all when claiming a 1 second magazine time change they are not including the extra time that would occur in a non-controlled circumstance when the shooter's attention is not totally centered on a swift magazine change. The shooter  is more attuned to what is happening inside a tightly enclosed area, inside or out and the very "in-your-face" distractions that would be going while executing a mass killing.

      That more than compensates for anything superfluous you may have seen in the video, without regard to relative proficiency level of a highly trained soldier and a crazed maniac.

      •  So you agree with another point of mine (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        whitis

        That a magazine change with standard size mags is easier to do than a mag change with the oversized units.

        Loughner used an oversize unit. The size and shape required him to take attention off of his surroundings in order to complete the mag change. A standard size mag can easily be changed without ever looking at the magazine or the pistol.

        And typically the slide locks to the rear when the magazine runs dry. The little plastic plunger reaches the top of the magazine and pushes up on the edge of a little lever on the gun, and that lever catches hold of a small notch, preventing the slide from closing.

        So, when using the standard size magazines you don't need to look at the magazine or the pistol, and the thing is already half prepared for you to reload - you don't have to pull the slide back, just a small tug disengages that little lever/notch.

        Those long stick magazines create a longer reload delay and introduce a higher rate of malfunction. It has to do with the laws of physics, regarding the energy in a compressed spring as well as the additional weight of many more bullets, and the metal that the spring is made of has a role in how well it can release that compressed energy in the form of pushing the next bullet up. It's counterintuitive, but these are measurable factors and lougner's long stick magazine is measurably a worse choice. And it makes me hang my head in frustration to see people push for legislation that will result in the next wacko nutjob using reliable gear.

        It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink. The answer is not gun control, it's people care.

        by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 18, 2013 at 04:31:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I understood Loughner had trouble (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dburn

    reloading, and it delayed him enough to let civilians intervene.

    LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

    by BlackSheep1 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 at 11:54:49 PM PST

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