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As we've seen today, a group of senators have jumped ahead of President Barack Obama's immigration proposal today and announced their own plan. It's okay, for the most part, except for one glaring problem: Full citizen rights for undocumented immigrants are contingent on Arizona wingnut Gov. Jan Brewer saying the border is "secure."

But lest you think this is some sort of accidental flaw, it isn't. And while conservatives are furious at this proposal, they shouldn't be. Because this is the perfect solution for them.

As I wrote back in December, Republicans face a lose-lose proposition on immigration.

Texas will be a battleground state by 2024. So math-adept Republicans are correct that they'll be electorally irrelevant unless they can make inroads with the Latino vote. (And let's not forget the Asian vote, considering it's now the fastest growing in the country.)

On the other hand, conservatives are right that legalizing 12 million Latinos would gift Democrats a treasure trove of Democratic voters [...]

Those new Democratic voters would accelerate the competitiveness of Arizona, Georgia, and Texas, while padding Democratic advantages in Colorado and Nevada (not to mention California and New Mexico).

Remember, Latinos are more likely to approve of socialism than Occupy protesters. Latinos are more pro-gay marriage and pro-choice than other Americans (due in most part to their youth—the median age of the Latino community is 18). Republicans won't be winning this vote anytime soon.

But, Republicans don't need to gain parity with Latinos to be nationally competitive. They can do so by getting to 40 percent-ish of the vote. And to do that, they will have to shed their reputation as haters. So how do they do that?

The current proposal would allow Republicans to say, "Hey, we don't hate your kids! DREAMers get legalized." They would also give rural farm-state Republicans what they want—a legalized agricultural workforce. But everyone else? They'd be stuck in this legal limbo—safe from deportation, but unable to ... you guessed it—cast Democratic votes at the ballot box, because citizenship won't be granted until that border commission decides the border is secure. And that will be never.

It's actually a smart ploy by Republicans—pretend to move ahead on immigration while doing their best to prevent those immigrants from ever casting votes that will undoubtedly be cast against them.

But here's the silver lining—if the fate of those in-limbo immigrants really depends on those border-state governors, then look out. Because our challenge in the South has been motivating Latino voters into turnout out. If Texas Latinos voted at the same rates as California Latinos, the Lone Star State would already be a swing state.

And nothing will motivate them more than giving them the opportunity to decide the fate of their mothers, fathers, daughters and sons, cousins and aunts and extended family.

Update: Greg Sargent reports that the border commission can't hold the citizenship trigger hostage.

The framework calls for an increase in the number of unmanned aerial vehicles, surveillance equipment, agents, and other measures designed to increase border security. The legislation will lay out specific targets as to how much border security needs to be increased by DHS; when those targets are met, the citizenship process goes forward, with the granting of probationary legal status to the undocumented.
If that's the case, then this is a surprisingly good deal. It would make for a far slower legalization proces than ideal, but with Republicans still wielding as much power as they have "ideal" is not possible. We get a humane policy dealing with our undocumented immigrants, Republicans get drones on the border.

Suddenly, what seemed like a good deal for the GOP is simply a good deal. Title changed to reflect that.

Originally posted to kos on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 09:44 AM PST.

Also republished by LatinoKos and Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Agreed. There is another angle to the plan as well (19+ / 0-)

    which involves the "getting to the back of the line" aspect. That mainly involves the speed by which the government processes applications. You can bet they'll be quietly demanding this be done with little to no new appropriations.

    Still, as I said with healthcare, it is always better to have a law on the books than not.

    •  Almost all immigration reforms (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP, Eyesbright, shoeless, Vatexia, HeyMikey

      require that the CIS pay for them from the fees they charge applicants.  Reagan started this in the 80s, and it has continued to this day.  Expect that the fees will be hefty.

      •  I wasn't talking about that aspect. (4+ / 0-)

        Yes, the fees are and will be heavy. I don't have a problem with that. We don't have to pay for people to come here. That's crazy.

        But, as far as having the extra manpower to process what will be a flood of applications, there will need to be appropriations to hire the workers to do it in a timely fashion. Which the GOP doesn't want. They'll want a long, long, long wait.

        •  Not really. The costs, including additional (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          brooklynbadboy, shoeless

          manpower, are always supposed to be covered by the application fees.

          •  The costs of a slow process or (0+ / 0-)

            the costs of a reasonably rapid process?

            •  The back of the line question isn't all (0+ / 0-)

              that straight forward - there are enough people in the mix who actually tried and gave up after submitting paperwork and paying fees only to find that their paperwork was lost.  Also, on the fee front, I think that there are a lot of questions and issues - it is one thing to be coming here for a high paying job and paying those fees and paying lawyers fees on top of that, but if you are a maid or a farmworker, those costs are difficult to pay for - and that's a class of labor we are looking for in this country.

              Also, requirements that people go back to their country of origin in order to "get to the back of the line" are not helpful or productive in trying to unravel what is essentially a backlog in the processing system.

              Dopey Republican sloganeering about lines, amnesty and secure borders really only serve to mask the complexity of the problem that they created through decades systematic attacks on our own immigration system which at one time was relatively high-functioning.

              •  "fees" should not be punitive (0+ / 0-)

                but they are also talking about "fines." There should also be fee waivers available. (Like if you worked for 15 or 20 years feeding the US and fell out of a tree, can get care at the emergency room maybe, and are disabled.)

                Human reason is beautiful and invincible --Milosz, Incantation

                by juancito on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:37:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  I think that at this point, part of the push for (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            juancito

            more and more SW border security is almost a form of pork since border security is already reported to cost more than FBI ATF and a lot of other police-like Federal services combined. There's never going to be enough money from fees to cover that. And getting governors' agreement as to what is 'enough' won't work because ethnic issues will mean there is never enough to satisfy them, until the occupants of those chairs are different folk than they are now.

            And I do note that there are actually other border with immigration issues which are not in the SW and not covered by that batch of governnor who get consulted on this which underlines the pork issue. It's just that for most of those irregularly documented folk, the local community is not so much discriminating against them anyway on ethnic grounds. Remember when HRC was running and she visited irregularly documented folk who were Irish in the Bronx and promised to help them, and nobody complained about that at all, no matter how much the Rs hate her personally.

    •  I think getting to the back of the line has to do (0+ / 0-)

      with citizenship. Rubio and the tea party never want them to vote.

  •  I love the image of , (5+ / 0-)

    Latinos fixing up republican's mistakes .
    Is that awful of me ?

    "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

    by indycam on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 09:53:06 AM PST

  •  meh (7+ / 0-)

    Whatever the bipartisan group of 8 senators proposes won't matter nearly as much as what legislation finally emerges.

    I think its inevitable that the "commission" language will be softened enough to be acceptable both to Democrats and the Latino community.  Jan Brewer will not be given true veto power.  Mark my words.

    And in the end, the GOP will be faced with the same lose-lose proposition.  Vote for a bill Obama can sign and get little credit, or vote against it and enrage Latinos even more.  

    The GOP will remain unpopular with groups who care about immigration no matter what.

  •  This part... (18+ / 0-)
    Full citizen rights for undocumented immigrants are contingent on Arizona wingnut Gov. Jan Brewer saying the border is "secure."
    may not really be an issue.  Greg Sargent posted this just a little while ago:
    Not true. I’ve now got clarification from Senate staff working on the bill, and it turns out that the enforcement commission’s judgments will only be advisory, and are entirely nonbinding. Congress’ actions will not be dictated by what this commission concludes; neither will actions taken by the Department of Homeland Security. The citizenship process will be triggered  by other means...
    •  This. (18+ / 0-)

      More:

      But the commission isn’t, for all practical purposes, really a major concession at all. If you look at the framework released by the bipartisan group of eight Senators today, it never quite says directly that the citizenship process can’t move forward until the commission reaches its findings. Rather, it says the plan creates a commission that will make a “recommendation” on when border security has been achieved, and doesn’t specify that this recommendation is what triggers the citizenship process.

      Here how it’s supposed to work, according to staffers for one of the Dem Senators working on the legislation. The framework calls for an increase in the number of unmanned aerial vehicles, surveillance equipment, agents, and other measures designed to increase border security. The legislation will lay out specific targets as to how much border security needs to be increased by DHS; when those targets are met, the citizenship process goes forward, with the granting of probationary legal status to the undocumented.

      Dem staffers say the four key Senate Republicans agreed to this approach, and this afternoon, when the bipartisan group of Senators holds their presser announcing the plan, this should become clearer. The concessions Republicans got in this deal — in exchange for agreeing to citizenship for 11 million — include beefed up border security, a new program designed to help employers verify their employees’ status, tougher checks on immigrants overstaying visas, and the need for undocumented immigrants to go to the end of the immigration line. But the enforcement commission doesn’t appear to represent a real concession to Republicans, as it doesn’t seem to have any real influence over the process.

      •  Where exactly is the end of that line, though, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DSPS owl, zizi

        given the variety of entry visa statuses we now have. Do the folks going to the end come before or after family members of those already here or other with priority in the visa line as it stands,  or are their positions determined by the national quotas, so they are at the end of the line for Mexicans or Guatemalans, but the Asians and South Asians and Africans have separate and distinct lines they are at the end of? And what about those who came for education and overstayed, where is that line?

    •  the issue of legalizing workers should (0+ / 0-)

      not be tied to teh outcome of a debate about "border security." The Border will never be secure enough for the anti-immigrant lobby.

      It's asking for a horrendous debate down the line, with all kinds of national security demagoguery to be inflated,with millions of people's futures at stake.

      Human reason is beautiful and invincible --Milosz, Incantation

      by juancito on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:40:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Except the RW wingnut base will make the (11+ / 0-)

    Rs look bad by their racist anti-immigrant ranting.

  •  Greg Sargent reports some big news on the (13+ / 0-)

    commission. He says, according to Senate staffers, it's purely advisory and non binding. Basically permanent legal status/citizenship isnt dependent on the commission. That's big news, if true.

  •  The republicans continue to gamble on the short (7+ / 0-)

    stick.  It's about all they have left, and sooner or later it is going to bite them in the ass, and that will be that.  Their options are running out, and eventually they will, too.  They are facing a declining demographic that they'll milk as long as they can, but it's a loser's game.  Just can't come soon enough for me, is all.  And it's a shame that they'll do plenty more damage as they go, but go they will.

  •  If only more people would get this memo: (11+ / 0-)
    but with Republicans still wielding as much power as they have "ideal" is not possible

    Facebook
    If you say "gullible" real slow, it sounds like "green beans."
    "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." -- Debbie Wasserman Schultz

    by weatherdude on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:14:56 AM PST

  •  The idea of legally deploying drones (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tamar, Soldier Scholar, shoeless, juancito

    is extremely bothersome to me.

    Otherwise... it does seem like fairly workable and somewhat reasonable compromise.

    "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

    by Andrew C White on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:20:07 AM PST

  •  And therefore the Republican House will not (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TomP, shoeless, juancito, Eric Nelson

    vote for it, or maybe not PERMIT a vote for it.

    Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
    I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
    —Spike Milligan

    by polecat on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:20:18 AM PST

    •  The House is the wild card (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      polecat, TomP, shoeless, cocinero, Eric Nelson

      the very wild card.

      "Do what you can with what you have where you are." - Teddy Roosevelt

      by Andrew C White on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:21:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Boehner has to violate the (7+ / 0-)

      Hastert Rule again-I think he could get enough Republicans to vote for it if the Dems hang together and with Minority Leader Pelosi, they will.

      The thing about democracy, beloveds, is that it is not neat, orderly, or quiet. It requires a certain relish for confusion. Molly Ivins

      by MufsMom on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:38:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And if they vote against it (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cocinero, Vatexia, polecat, slothlax

      it will be like LGBT civil rights - and unstoppable wave that will just keep building.  I am seeing a pattern here and I like it... when an issue becomes ripe for movement, then the administration shoves, and it moves.  And it moves permanently.

      I'll tell you one thing that is damn certain.  No matter what the House does, all those kids and young adults getting deferred action are not going to be deported.  No way.  That issue is settled.  The deportations and detention of their parents and others who are ineligible may continue, but this is feeling more and more like a matter of time before there is a compromise.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:51:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kinda depends upon the 2016 election. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ivorybill, Sharon Wraight

        Upon which the Republicans will be pinning their hopes for the future, because the 2nd term (2020) of that President will preside over the Census and redistricting.

        2016 is Make or Break for them.  If there is a way for the Republicans to steal that election, they will.

        Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
        I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
        —Spike Milligan

        by polecat on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 12:26:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Make or break? No way (0+ / 0-)

          2020 is the election they need to win for redistricting.  If Democrats are coming off of twelve years of rule, I think the other side will have a fighting chance in 2020.

          There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

          by slothlax on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 01:07:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Do not underestimate the power of the incumbent. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sharon Wraight

            You're not a Jedi, yet.

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            —Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 01:58:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Do not underestimate the thirst for power (0+ / 0-)

              I also don't think our position is as commanding as we like to believe.  When's the last time one party had the White House four sixteen years?  We've benefited from some self-inflicted GOP wounds, that won't last forever.  Whatever problems arise between now and then will be a lot harder to blame on Republicans, too.  The threat of scandal always looms.  Incumbency is powerful, but it can also be a curse.

              I'm just saying that a loss for the GOP in 2016 in no way guarantees anything in 2020, either way.

              There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

              by slothlax on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 02:16:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Sweet! (5+ / 0-)
    Latinos are more likely to approve of socialism than Occupy protesters.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:24:53 AM PST

  •  Charles P. Pierce is not holding his breath (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Denise Oliver Velez

    http://www.esquire.com/...

    I have to agree with him on discounting the press reaction. NPR was using bipartisan in every other sentence; Cokie Roberts was positively giddy.

    While Atkins over at Digby's is talking about Obama's tragic flaw, what he has to say about the Republicans is very germane to this.

    http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/...

    "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

    by xaxnar on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:25:11 AM PST

  •  Has anyone else been hearing (0+ / 0-)

    the Very Serious People saying that Obama needs to stand back on this because anything he proposes will be opposed by the Tea Party?

    What does this proposal do to what he will propose if that is true (not saying it is, because, after all it is Very Serious People talking)?

  •  Poison Pill (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wretchedhive, shoeless

    The path to citizenship is dependent on DHS achieving specific goals in terms of border security.  Achieving these goals will cost money.  The GOP, and the House in particular, will refuse the appropriate the necessary funds.  Thus, there will never be a path to citizenship.

    Am I missing something?

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -- Arthur C. Clarke

    by mathGuyNTulsa on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:27:03 AM PST

  •  it's not just the immigration issue (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bush Bites, GRLionsFan, cocinero, slothlax

    that is turning off latinos - as is pointed out in this story, latinos are more likely to hold strongly socialist views.

    There are probably a host of cultural reasons for that, and perhaps it is a reflection of the current mood in the rest of latin america, where more socialist options have become popular in recent years from Brazil to Venezuela to Bolivia.

    But it also may be that "screw thy neighbor" economics is something rooted more uniquely in privileged anglo culture and it doesn't translate well.

  •  A bunch of 18 year olds coming out of the dark. (7+ / 0-)

    Would help Social Security and Medicare too.

    "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

    by Bush Bites on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:28:45 AM PST

    •  absolutely! Anyone who thinks we don't need (5+ / 0-)

      these young ambitious workers is nuts.
      I want them fully part of our country.

      While Democrats work to get more people to vote, Republicans work to ensure those votes won't count.

      by Tamar on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:31:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What is going to be interesting is the provision (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        juancito, Tamar

        about paying theoretically unpaid back taxes. I think of the number of folk who had dubious SS cards so they could work, which means that somebody, though not them, got credit for their payments and all of that will have to be unscrambled, because if deductions for tax and FICA and such were being made from what they were paid, they should get credit for that and whoever's number it was should not.  Also, those who worked under the table and under the minimum wage are going to bring along with them issues as to why their employers did not get SS numbers and did not do the various deductions, all of which also involve reporting and payments to gummint that the employers did not do either.  

  •  guest workers? what's in the proposal? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cocinero

    there's plenty of abuse now.  More "guest workers"  more abuse, more downward pressure on wages/working conditions.

    It's not a fake orgasm; it's a real yawn.

    by sayitaintso on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:28:48 AM PST

    •  yes- the problematic guest worker language is stil (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      askew

      there. There will be a program to allow the agri & dairy industry to hire guest workers. But it seems like these workers would be eligible for green card down trhe line, so it's better than the previous bill.

  •  Socialism? (0+ / 0-)

    when? where? how?

    Republicans are penny wise and pound foolish.

    by Krush on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:30:15 AM PST

    •  Actually, looks like they're net negative... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Krush

      ...on socialism.

      http://www.people-press.org/...

      Just not as negative as OWSers are on socialism.

      And, overall, Latinos are more negative on capitalism than socialism.

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:42:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  good article (0+ / 0-)

        what i am confused about is why everyone is focused on socialism.

        the U.S. is not a socialistic country and probably will not be in the foreseable future, no matter how many social programs are available. (not many)

        Republicans are penny wise and pound foolish.

        by Krush on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:51:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I don't understand why someone doesn't ask (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    juancito

    them, why undocumented immigrants are bad?

    "Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die," - Buddha.

    by sujigu on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:31:56 AM PST

  •  But can the GOP House move it to the right? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    immigradvocate

    Is there a danger of this bill being "toughened" up by Boehner to get tea party votes?

    Will he still follow the Hastert rule?

    •  The Rs in the House have at least one problem not (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      slothlax, zizi, immigradvocate

      yet mentioned here. I don't know if Kossacks followed the news reports last harvest about the very large number IN THE SOUTH of Agricultural businesses which lost crops because they couldn't get the workers who did harvest work, owing in no smallpart to the anti noncitizen worker laws some of the R southern states passed which caused workers to avoid those states, and their ag businesses. These ag business will come rolling out of the woodwork if this problem for them does not get fixed, and a lot of it was a specifically Southern problem.

  •  We need more immigration (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    juancito

    so that new immigrant voters can vote the racist teabaggers out of office.

    And as the country becomes more diverse, we can have more affirmative action.  Affirmative action is a good thing because it gets rid of white male privilege.

  •  Kos: I am disappointed in you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Krush, juancito

    You don't have to come out and say it is good at this stage. This is a proposal that is just out today. You just made a campaign poster caption for the republicans.

    "Senate immigration reform proposal surprisingly good-KOS."
    Opponents mostly in the house will use it to threaten supporters and those who sign unto it in the senate will use it to campaign in the general election even if the  final legislation draft is bad.
  •  "math-adept Republicans"?... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cocinero, immigradvocate

    They have one?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    I agree tho, this is a surprisingly good start point.  What can actually get thru the house is a far different matter however.  

  •  If you think they're not going to walk back (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Christy1947, juancito

    all the provisions not related to the border once it gets the full funding requested, you're delusional.

    This is not about immigration reform.  This is about trying to get hispanic support for the GOP when they have no intention, nor expectation of getting full legislation passed.  They can now point to this committee and say, "See, we tried to do something, we actually do like brown people."

    Calling BS on their intent.

    If you can't tell who the sucker is at the card table, guess what?

    I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

    by wretchedhive on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:39:36 AM PST

    •  Correct, and Rubio will have to figure out how to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wretchedhive

      walk back his half baked proposals in order to get to benefit from this. This is not his first turn around the block since the election and this one and his first turn don't agree on much, which means he will be needed a really good explanation for the switch which the Teas will accept.

      •  he's innoculated as a darling brown fella (0+ / 0-)

        nobody is going to give a shit that he was on a "committee" that was subject to partisan give and take - just builds his street cred as being a consensus builder or some other rot.

        this is a poison pill POS where everyone is trying to headfake each other out.

        This is shit garbage that Democrats are idiots for even playing along.

        I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

        by wretchedhive on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 04:14:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  What does border security have to do with people (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    juancito, zizi

    who are already here? Unless the border security is designed to keep current immigrants from leaving the country, it has no effect on immigration reform.

    You ever notice that everyone who believes in creationism looks really unevolved? Eyes real close together, big furry hands and feet. "I believe God created me in one day." Yeah, looks like he rushed it.- Bill Hicks

    by shoeless on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:41:37 AM PST

    •  IIRC, the "Border Security' guys' jurisdiction (0+ / 0-)

      is not limited to a dotted line connecting the southernmost towns in the various states, but also covers Phoenix and like that, and they and not just cops were pulling Latinos off the streets to see if their papers were in their pockets and purses when they went onto the street for any purpose much north of that supposed dotted line for where the 'border' was.

  •  An increase in UAV's, to arms! to arms! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cocinero

    My wing nut friend down the valley is going to love to know the gov is going to be putting UAV's in the area to look at people.

    He keeps a piece of paper over his satellite TV box, so that the gov. can't watch him.  Last year he pointed his rifle at a helicopter that was flying over his house (they were doing a deer and elk count for the state).

    Boy is he going to love hearing this!

  •  latinos (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cocinero, DEMonrat ankle biter

    also have much lower rates of gun ownership and even before 12/14 had much higher rates of support for gun control.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:42:13 AM PST

  •  Concerns about H1-B visa expansion (4+ / 0-)

    and our current inability to hold employers accountable when they claim they can't find highly skilled workers in the U.S. There's already a lot of H1-B visa abuse going on.

    Flooding an already weak job market with more low wage IT workers doesn't sound like the best strategy for a recovering economy.  No doubt the WH and Congress are under pressure from corporate donors/lobbyists to help lower wages for these career fields.

    Interestingly, the visa program in place for recruiting highly skilled foreign workers has no quota.   It's called the O visa program.

    So expanding the number of H1-B visa workers is really targeted at other skill brackets in IT - programmers, coders, etc.  

    There's also an issue with employers proving they can't hire highly skilled workers in the US.  Their claims of a skills gap just don't hold up.  In fact, they're trying to hire highly skilled workers at rock bottom wages.

    Link

    So behind the warm and fuzzy talk of helping immigrant workers become US citizens (as they should) there may be another underhanded attempt to flood the US labor market with cheap foreign imports in IT and high tech jobs.

    As always, the devil is in the details, so lets see them.

    Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

    by Betty Pinson on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 10:51:15 AM PST

    •  I am normally pro-immigration, but I agree that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      demjim, YoungArizonaLiberal

      unlimited green cards for all STEM graduates with MS degrees is excessive.  It's unfair that people working in the STEM fields have to face this extra competition from immigrants while people working in law, finance, medicine, etc do not.

      •  US universities are probably lobbying (0+ / 0-)

        for the change as well, hoping it will boost their enrollment of foreign students.  They're seeing declines already in US student enrollment in these programs simply because the high cost of education doesn't pay off in decent career prospects.

        Democratic Leaders must be very clear they stand with the working class of our country. Democrats must hold the line in demanding that deficit reduction is done fairly -- not on the backs of the elderly, the sick, children and the poor.

        by Betty Pinson on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:30:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  But It's Not Unfair For People Working (0+ / 0-)

        In the construction trades to face "extra competition from immigrants while people working in law, finance, medicine, etc do not"?

        I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

        by superscalar on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 04:26:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Farm states want a legal rural labor force? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slothlax

    The history of farm workers shows this is not true:  growers and their representatives may pay lip service to this idea, but undocumented workers are much easier to exploit than legal workers.  Undocumented persons are vastly less likely to report abuses, for one.  Legal workers have a host of legal protections that are seen as costly to growers.

    Growers have silently enjoyed decades of undocumented workers because it makes growing crops cheaper.  Let us also not forget the history of using undocumented workers to break farm labor strikes.

    •  Costly to some growers (0+ / 0-)

      We may be changing the dynamic as to what is offered in our grocery shelves and bins by changing the costs of certain crops relative to others.

      Might smaller outfits become relatively more price competitive because the gap between their operating expenses and that of the undocumented labor intensive operations is narrower?

      When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:11:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, of course (0+ / 0-)

        Groups like the National Farmers Union have for decades made the same argument, which is why they have supported the UFW and others since the 60s.  Industrial farming requires an exploitable labor force that artificially lowers the cost of production.  Small farms that cannot rely on this economy of scale suffer accordingly.  But let's not think these smaller farms have the ear of their representatives; for that, it's the Farm Bureau et al.

        •  Farm labor is only a portion... (0+ / 0-)

          ...of all undocumented and currently under-compensated labor. If a deal is actually done, there cannot be some "farm laborer exception."

          The other employers won't allow it.

          When you are right you cannot be too radical; when you are wrong, you cannot be too conservative. --Martin Luther King Jr.

          by Egalitare on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:49:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  & in 2 yrs if Dems retake house can make better (0+ / 0-)

    smooth out/ speed up

  •  BS Electoral Cynicism (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YoungArizonaLiberal

    This legislation is a good thing, and I hope it passes.  That the Grand Old Party is so seemingly compliant is 100% electoral cynicism, and I hope the American people see right through it.

    The Republicans know that they can't win the White House - and will likely loose Congress - on a platform that marginalizes a majority of Americans.  They've made the calculation that they can continue to marginalize women, homosexuals, African Americans and non-Christians so long as they accommodate Hispanics.  Does ANYONE doubt that they GOP would have had this Immigration Epiphany had they won the Senate or White House?  Doubtful.

    •  Agree 100% (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Soldier Scholar

      I am happy that this is being brought up now but it is disappointing to say the least that the next Presidential Election is all that the Repugs (Marco Rubio in particular) seem to care about.

      We all have our own life to pursue, our own kind of dream to be weaving, and we all have the power to make wishes come true, as long as we keep believing. Louisa May Alcott

      by YoungArizonaLiberal on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:22:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Citizenship is NOT critical , Green card is (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Soldier Scholar, juancito, slothlax

    If the undocumented folks get green cards that WILL BE A VERY BIG DEAL.

    Would it be nice to get full voter rights etc? Yes, but its not a mater of life and death as the green card is.

  •  per RS comments, they r not liking it & (0+ / 0-)

    supposedly Malkin has spoken out against

    with rush limbaugh remaining silent at the moment on it

    Not sure on ^, just mentioning what redstater comments were saying

    also saw this over there

    ....there is too much "Compasionate Conservative" baggage in Mark Rubio's closet on the immigration issue. That may change, but fiscal conservatives have got to insist Rubio explicitly deal properly with that baggage.....
    Now time to shower after dipping my toe in over there
    •  If Limbaugh is silent... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DEMonrat ankle biter, FistJab

      he must be dead.

      "I'm totally pro-choice in the matter of abortion. But of course I'm also so radically pro-life that I think every person from birth onward must have full and affordable access to healthcare." - Gail Collins

      by gritsngumbo on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:21:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  If Rush was against it we wouldn't have this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DEMonrat ankle biter

      proposal. It seems like he is the standard bearer for what is acceptable and what isn't for conservatives. No doubt that if Obama praises it, the right will be screaming about how he took Rubio's idea. sigh

      We all have our own life to pursue, our own kind of dream to be weaving, and we all have the power to make wishes come true, as long as we keep believing. Louisa May Alcott

      by YoungArizonaLiberal on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:24:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  How's this for a scenario: 1) January 28th, (0+ / 0-)

    Bipartisan proposal unveiled
    2) Jan. 29th, the president comes out in support of it (foregoing his own proposals)
    3) Jan. 30th, House GOP announces opposition to it (just because---that Kenyan commy likes it).
    4) Jan., 31st, Mitch McConnell announces a filibuster of the gang of 8 proposal.

    "They will not collect a ransom in exchange for not crashing the American economy. The full faith and credit of the United States of America is not a bargaining chip."

    by TofG on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:05:23 AM PST

  •  The amnesty part is good, but the unlimited green (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    YoungArizonaLiberal, wmspringer

    cards for anyone graduating from an american university with an MS in any STEM field, is going way overboard. This is going to create a lot more competition for university/ grad school admissions and also competition for the engineering/ science jobs. There needs to be a firm quota which is tied to the employment needs, and the fields should be broadened beyond just the STEM areas.

    •  I think the H1-B program is wonderful (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      juancito

      It brings in a lot of immigrants who enrich our culture.

      There should be no borders or limits.  We are one world.

      •  Sorry...have you looked into the immigration (0+ / 0-)

        processes in European Countries? After all, it is commonplace here to see Europe as faultless and paradise. I had to research the immigration process for the country I studied abroad in (Denmark) and it is honestly much easier just to remain in the country you're in...it's that difficult. However, Denmark has a very strong safety net, immigrants don't integrate, but assimilate (contrary to what many people do when they move to the US) into a homogeneous society.

        We need to think about these things more closely rather than hoping for a fantasy. Icemilkcoffee is correct in his/her sentiments.

        We all have our own life to pursue, our own kind of dream to be weaving, and we all have the power to make wishes come true, as long as we keep believing. Louisa May Alcott

        by YoungArizonaLiberal on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:30:41 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Will this cover ALL immigration (0+ / 0-)

    Or is it just aimed at the Mexican border?
    How many Cubans are illegally residing in S. Florida?  Will there still be special rules and exemptions for them?
    When we say "border security", will we include Florida and the Gulf states?

  •  Sorry to disagree with el jefe here (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AlRod

    but kos:

    a limbo status that doesn't even have a clear path to lawful permanent residence-- be it fixed at two years of temporary status or 10 years of temporary status-- should be a non-starter.

    (Also the the idea that every single person who is waiting for a visa through the insane family preference system should be processed first only sounds good to people who haven't, um, say,  looked at the 4th family preference for the Phillipines lately. or ever. It is a recipe for lifetime punitive limbo status.)

    These are recipes for indefinite non-LPR status, with future Congressional opportunities to intervene and revise "goals" for "border security."

    Not to mention fines for people who built our economy and whose remittance support millions of hungry family members abroad.

    arggh. carajo.

    Human reason is beautiful and invincible --Milosz, Incantation

    by juancito on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:35:26 AM PST

  •  So there ARE some sane minds to prevail. (0+ / 0-)

    There is no automatic rule that latino voters will trend Democratic as they get older, and no rule that young voters will always trend Democratic, either.

    There is, however, an immutable law that Republicans may be staring in the face:  there is no future in being the party of stupid and the party of division.  It's better to get 40% of a major voting bloc than 10%.

    At least this agreement can take the immigration reform issue off the table and let Republicans consider winning a few votes instead of chasing them away.

    LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

    by dinotrac on Mon Jan 28, 2013 at 11:37:55 AM PST

  •  A direct result of kicking butt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    slothlax, DEMonrat ankle biter

    during the last election. At least that's my opinion.
    So, my take away is that appeasing Republicans is a losing proposition. Kicking their ass is the language they understand.

  •  Latinos know Grampy McCain cannot be trusted, nor (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    juancito

    his sidekick Lindsey Graham. Rubio's just a puppet don't know many outside the RNC trust or believe him, especially Latino's outside of Florida.

    Right now, Schumer's is questionable and Durbin is a wimp.

    Not certain yet of the others at this time.

  •  With McCain and his little sidekick Lindsay Graham (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DEMonrat ankle biter

    involved, I just assumed they would be there to gum up the works.

    I do hope you are correct about the "surprisingly good deal".

  •  It's a good law if it helps some hardworking (0+ / 0-)

    good people and their families, irrespective of the nation of their origin.

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